Loading up Linux for the first time

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm loading up a downloaded version of Mandrake-Linux 10.0. I pretty opted for everything in the installation screen, just to see all the bells and whistles it offers. Anything anybody recommend I check out?

[MacroGuru]

Let me know if they have modified their optical mouse support (if you can) it's the main reason I am on SuSe instead of Mandrake. (I run 50/50 Windows/Linux) at home and at work, I am in Windows for most of my dev and gaming, but standard surfing is in Linux.

[jbmagic]

Gentoo Linux is the best.

once you install , you can update it easily. so your linux is always updated

[Tekneek]

Gentoo Linux is the best.

once you install , you can update it easily. so your linux is always updated

I run Gentoo at work and on a machine at home. I wouldn't say it is the easiest, especially for a linux newbie. It can be a fun thing to play with once you develop the interest in it.

Gentoo takes a lot of work. For instance, I've compiled a new 2.6 kernel with the same config as a 2.4 kernel, but my mouse simply will not work with the 2.6 kernel...oh well. Other than that, it is mostly wonderful. :)

As far as what to check out, I would mess with EVERYTHING...literally.

[HomerJSimpson]

Any reccomendations on a desktop?

[HomerJSimpson]

I know this isn't a Linux help board, but I don't really want to wade through the smug, no-it-all computer geeks on those boards to find answers. :)

Is there any way to see files on the Windows drives while using Linux? I can see the drives (oddly, it is registering my SATA drive as a "removable" drive, and my USB drive as a standard drive), but I cannot see any of the files. Do I need to log in as root to see them, or is it just impossible to see them?

[Marc Vaughan]

I'm loading up a downloaded version of Mandrake-Linux 10.0. I pretty opted for everything in the installation screen, just to see all the bells and whistles it offers. Anything anybody recommend I check out?
Download 'Battle for Wesnoth' if you like turn based strategy games as it rocks (and is free) :D

If you're into FM you might want to check out Byfoot which is a linux based soccer management game (again its free):
http://bygfoot.sourceforge.net/

Hope this helps,

Marc

[HomerJSimpson]

Download 'Battle for Wesnoth' if you like turn based strategy games as it rocks (and is free) :D

If you're into FM you might want to check out Byfoot which is a linux based soccer management game (again its free):
http://bygfoot.sourceforge.net/

Hope this helps,

Marc

Very nice, Marc. Thanks.

[dixieflatline]

Hey Homer. I think you'll be very happy with your choice of Mandrake. It's the best linux version for people who haven't ever used linux before IMO. The first thing to do is setup your urpmi database. RPMs are the thing used to upgrade your system and urpmi handles all dependancies and installations. It's really very handy. Anyway, it's already setup with all the rpms from your installation disks but there are a lot of other nice rpms online that you can link up to. There is a unified webpage that will walk you through this and give you a list of a bunch of these sites here: hxxp://easyurpmi.zarb.org/
Actually, the first thing to do is to decide which GUI desktop to use. The two most popular are KDE and Gnome and odds are you probably installed both when you installed mandrake. You can play around with each but I'm a KDE guy and I would recommend making that your default. It's a bit more graphical than Gnome.

The next thing to do is to decide what you are planning to do with linux. Openoffice 1.1 is a really nice office suite which you probably installed already. Mozilla is on the disks as well but if you want firefox you will have to download and install that. I'd recommend firefox not that mozilla is bad. If you are planning on developing code then you need to decide on an editor. There are about 100 of these out there but my personal favorite is xemacs. You probably didn't install this but it's on your disk. Other nice ones are Nedit and I know several people who use Jed. You get gcc(c compiler) for free but if you want python, perl, java, fortran, or some other language you will have to install them from disk. Let us know what you are planning on doing and we can point you to what you will need.

[sterlingice]

I know this isn't a Linux help board, but I don't really want to wade through the smug, no-it-all computer geeks on those boards to find answers. :)
I've found that the best way to get things done is to go on one of those and say "Your operating system sucks. I can do this in Windows with a simple click but I can't figure out how to do this". Once you sort through the flames, you'll have your answer ;)

The community, as a whole, is kindof computer geeky snobbish. It's like you get a badge for playing hide and seek with information (I've gotten to the point where I want to punch anyone who says "read the man page" as if I haven't done that already). And that's coming from a programmer who's somewhat comfortable with Linux.

SI

[HomerJSimpson]

Hey Homer. I think you'll be very happy with your choice of Mandrake. It's the best linux version for people who haven't ever used linux before IMO. The first thing to do is setup your urpmi database. RPMs are the thing used to upgrade your system and urpmi handles all dependancies and installations. It's really very handy. Anyway, it's already setup with all the rpms from your installation disks but there are a lot of other nice rpms online that you can link up to. There is a unified webpage that will walk you through this and give you a list of a bunch of these sites here: hxxp://easyurpmi.zarb.org/
Actually, the first thing to do is to decide which GUI desktop to use. The two most popular are KDE and Gnome and odds are you probably installed both when you installed mandrake. You can play around with each but I'm a KDE guy and I would recommend making that your default. It's a bit more graphical than Gnome.

The next thing to do is to decide what you are planning to do with linux. Openoffice 1.1 is a really nice office suite which you probably installed already. Mozilla is on the disks as well but if you want firefox you will have to download and install that. I'd recommend firefox not that mozilla is bad. If you are planning on developing code then you need to decide on an editor. There are about 100 of these out there but my personal favorite is xemacs. You probably didn't install this but it's on your disk. Other nice ones are Nedit and I know several people who use Jed. You get gcc(c compiler) for free but if you want python, perl, java, fortran, or some other language you will have to install them from disk. Let us know what you are planning on doing and we can point you to what you will need.

Good info, though I'm hoping what you said about Mandrake is right. The second time I booted into the system, it couldn't open either GNOME or KDE. It gave two different reasons, but the best I could figure it had something to do with the drive that I switched to ext3. I'm still trying to get it all sorted out.

[HomerJSimpson]

I've found that the best way to get things done is to go on one of those and say "Your operating system sucks. I can do this in Windows with a simple click but I can't figure out how to do this". Once you sort through the flames, you'll have your answer ;)

The community, as a whole, is kindof computer geeky snobbish. It's like you get a badge for playing hide and seek with information (I've gotten to the point where I want to punch anyone who says "read the man page" as if I haven't done that already). And that's coming from a programmer who's somewhat comfortable with Linux.

SI

Yeah, I guess I'm just going to have to read through some of the docs to figure things out. Mandrake comes with a full set, and the second I figure out how to get it working again, I'll check them out. :)

[dixieflatline]

Good info, though I'm hoping what you said about Mandrake is right. The second time I booted into the system, it couldn't open either GNOME or KDE. It gave two different reasons, but the best I could figure it had something to do with the drive that I switched to ext3. I'm still trying to get it all sorted out.

I think that if you asked around about what's best for a new user Mandrake and KDE would win big. Mandrake doesn't get any big headlines but I've found it much more user friendly than Red Hat for instance. I don't even install Gnome anymore because I like KDE that much. You might want to hit <esc> when it boots up there might be an error message there that is easier to read. I think you'll be really happy with a move to opensource. Windows still has it's needs but they are going down every year.

ps. if you find yourself upgrading to 10.1 sometime and it asks you if you want to upgrade or just install forget the upgrade and just install.

pps. If you haven't already I would make a seperate disk partition for your home area. Very handy when it comes to upgrading.

I've gotten to the point where I want to punch anyone who says "read the man page" as if I haven't done that already

If I had a dollar for every time... Seriously, some of the man pages are useful and some are just terrible. I guess that is what you get with opensource code. But yeah if I ask a question these days I slip in a comment about already looking at the man page and a google search. Really speeds things up.

[HomerJSimpson]

Ok, I'm on my third time through installing. Maybe this time I'll get ut right and not majorly screw it up. :)

[daedalus]

If you are planning on developing code then you need to decide on an editor. There are about 100 of these out there but my personal favorite is xemacs. You probably didn't install this but it's on your disk. Other nice ones are Nedit and I know several people who use Jed.Screw that. Nothing beats vi. Except vim. Yeah.

I loves me some religious war. :D(I've gotten to the point where I want to punch anyone who says "read the man page" as if I haven't done that already).You should re-read the ma . . . er, ne'er mind. :D

[HomerJSimpson]

Well, after 8 hours and 5 re-loads, I can't get it to work. I guess Linux wasn't meant to be for me.

[daedalus]

What problems are you having?

[HomerJSimpson]

What problems are you having?

Too many to easily list. Basically, I messed with something trying to figure things out, and it corrupted the kernel. Now, for some reason, the installation program says that it can't reload Lilo because every drive and partion "has no memory" and when I try to load, it crashes because of a "kernel fault."

[HomerJSimpson]

BTW, just an opinion here, but if the "open source" people really want Linux to put a hurt on the Windows market, they are going to have to make things simpler for the not-so tech savy. I'm not a computer novice, but the whole way Linux handles drives and partions make zero sense. Windows handles things much simpler and straight forward.

[dixieflatline]

BTW, just an opinion here, but if the "open source" people really want Linux to put a hurt on the Windows market, they are going to have to make things simpler for the not-so tech savy. I'm not a computer novice, but the whole way Linux handles drives and partions make zero sense. Windows handles things much simpler and straight forward.

Wow that really surprises me as I really like the way partions are handled under linux. But I haven't ever had the kind of problems you are describing. If I did I'm sure that it would frusterate me as well. Sorry that you couldn't get things configured. Unfortuneately, mandrake definitely has the easiest configuration process but if you would like to try Suse or Red hat maybe one of those would solve your problems.


Screw that. Nothing beats vi. Except vim. Yeah.

Yeah I know a couple of hard core guys that still swear by vi. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me but whatever works. Although I must say that they are mostly the same people who swear that all the answers are located in the man pages as well.

[HomerJSimpson]

Wow that really surprises me as I really like the way partions are handled under linux. But I haven't ever had the kind of problems you are describing. If I did I'm sure that it would frusterate me as well. Sorry that you couldn't get things configured. Unfortuneately, mandrake definitely has the easiest configuration process but if you would like to try Suse or Red hat maybe one of those would solve your problems.


Yeah I know a couple of hard core guys that still swear by vi. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me but whatever works. Although I must say that they are mostly the same people who swear that all the answers are located in the man pages as well.


Well, I didn't give up, and have finally got it loaded, but I still can't see the drive that split formatted fat32 andf ext2. Do I have to put a "mount point" on the ext2 partition? And if I do, which one should I put on there for just a extra storage space?

[jbmagic]

hi

there a great chat room for Mandrake

get MIRC chat. its free

and connect to irc.freenode.net server

and then join #mandrake

they will help newbies out.

are you familar with MIRC?

[daedalus]

Yeah I know a couple of hard core guys that still swear by vi. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me but whatever works. Although I must say that they are mostly the same people who swear that all the answers are located in the man pages as well.Heh. Probably doesn't hurt that the default pagers (more and less, depending on preference) have roughly the same movement keys as vi/vim.

[sterlingice]

Heh. Probably doesn't hurt that the default pagers (more and less, depending on preference) have roughly the same movement keys as vi/vim.
I know this is crazy talk, but I thought I'd let you hardcore guys in on something. About 15 years ago- heck almost 20, they (the little gods behind computing) invented this thing called a GUI. It's pretty nifty and makes doing a lot of things easier. You might want to look into it ;)

SI

[daedalus]

I know this is crazy talk, but I thought I'd let you hardcore guys in on something. About 15 years ago- heck almost 20, they (the little gods behind computing) invented this thing called a GUI. It's pretty nifty and makes doing a lot of things easier. You might want to look into it ;)Hey, now. I don't mind no GUI. Why, I can remember back in the glory days when I had access to X-Window and was usin' VTWM (Tom's Window with Virtual windows, it rocked 'cuz I like plain and boring) to mud and do school stuff from (in those particular order, heh). MS Windows never did do focus-follow-cursor right (their version brings the window into the foreground, in addition to focus).

vi just rocks beyond belief. You can do search-replace quicker in that than you can ever do in a GUI-based editor (even with my mediocre regexp knowledge). You can also move around way quicker in that than a GUI-based editor. With vim adding multiple views and multiple undos, it'ss the perfect text editor.

Oh, yeah. My favourite Dilbert:
http://jameszambon.com/PIX/2004/10/dilbert950624.gif

[sterlingice]

Did you walk uphill, in the snow, both ways, too ;)

SI

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm so not getting the love of Linux. Maybe it is just the learning curve, but everything seems to be twice as hard, take twice as long, and is counter intuitive.

[daedalus]

Did you walk uphill, in the snow, both ways, too ;)Truly! :DI'm so not getting the love of Linux. Maybe it is just the learning curve, but everything seems to be twice as hard, take twice as long, and is counter intuitive.What are you trying to do that you are not able to do or having trouble getting done?

[sterlingice]

I just loaded up Mandrake and it felt the need to co-op the entirety of my second hard drive. I had a nice 30 gig partition all waiting for it, but it wouldn't use that. Now I'm left trying to figure out why it needed 60-something gigs for the home directory and why 25 wasn't enough.

SI

[Marc Vaughan]

I know this is crazy talk, but I thought I'd let you hardcore guys in on something. About 15 years ago- heck almost 20, they (the little gods behind computing) invented this thing called a GUI. It's pretty nifty and makes doing a lot of things easier. You might want to look into it ;)

SI
You might be interested to know that vi is much much faster than most windows editors (once you're used to it) and also allows macroing in a much more advanced manner than any windows editor.

I actually used to keep a PC version of vi on my dev machines until around two years ago for just this reason .... sometimes bells and whistles don't actually amount to as much as something which is simply powerful and simple to use.

[HomerJSimpson]

Truly! :DWhat are you trying to do that you are not able to do or having trouble getting done?

Try anything.

[sterlingice]

You might be interested to know that vi is much much faster than most windows editors (once you're used to it) and also allows macroing in a much more advanced manner than any windows editor.

I actually used to keep a PC version of vi on my dev machines until around two years ago for just this reason .... sometimes bells and whistles don't actually amount to as much as something which is simply powerful and simple to use.
Yeah, but the rub is that there aren't as many features. The other is that even if you don't use those, the learning curve is so steep on it. I had to use either it or emacs quite a bit when SSH'ing into the school computers and I still feel lost in the desert when using it. There's just too many other proggies out there to learn that I don't really feel like wasting months learning a text editor for a slight speedup.

SI

[sterlingice]

I just loaded up Mandrake and it felt the need to co-op the entirety of my second hard drive. I had a nice 30 gig partition all waiting for it, but it wouldn't use that. Now I'm left trying to figure out why it needed 60-something gigs for the home directory and why 25 wasn't enough. Finally got this sorted out by doing manual allocations of /, /swap, /home and made the rest a little FAT32 partition. Why FAT32? Apparently, Linux can't really handle NTFS without a plugin- well, here's what a site had to say: "The NTFS support in Linux-2.6 is very limited (because Microsoft doesn't disclose the technical bits about how NTFS works). Specifically, it does not support these operations: Creating/deleting files, Growing/shrinking file. It only allows writing over existing files." (link (http://bisqwit.iki.fi/story/howto/ntfs/)) Reeeeal useful. Apparently, if you want to do things with NTFS, get something called Capture-NTFS. Might want to keep that in mind when partitioning things, Homer. Also, keeping in mind that WinXP can't see your Linux partitions.

So, now mine looks like this:
60 gig: C: WinXP, 30gig, NTFS; D: Storage, 30gig, FAT32
80 gig: /,/swap,/home: Mandrake 10.1, ~30gig, ???; E: Storage, 50gig, FAT32

SI

[dixieflatline]

Yeah now that you metnion it I always did the manual allocations. Seems like the best way to go under Mandrake anyway. It's a bit of a pain I guess but I want to be involved in partitioning my drives.

[sterlingice]

Yeah now that you metnion it I always did the manual allocations. Seems like the best way to go under Mandrake anyway. It's a bit of a pain I guess but I want to be involved in partitioning my drives.
Well, I wasn't sure how much I really wanted to partition since I'm not used to using it, but I just used their auto allocation numbers (with a much smaller home). Problem was, when I used the auto allocation, it took my entire hard drive and I needed to change that.

SI

[HomerJSimpson]

Finally got this sorted out by doing manual allocations of /, /swap, /home and made the rest a little FAT32 partition. Why FAT32? Apparently, Linux can't really handle NTFS without a plugin- well, here's what a site had to say: "The NTFS support in Linux-2.6 is very limited (because Microsoft doesn't disclose the technical bits about how NTFS works). Specifically, it does not support these operations: Creating/deleting files, Growing/shrinking file. It only allows writing over existing files." (link (http://bisqwit.iki.fi/story/howto/ntfs/)) Reeeeal useful. Apparently, if you want to do things with NTFS, get something called Capture-NTFS. Might want to keep that in mind when partitioning things, Homer. Also, keeping in mind that WinXP can't see your Linux partitions.

So, now mine looks like this:
60 gig: C: WinXP, 30gig, NTFS; D: Storage, 30gig, FAT32
80 gig: /,/swap,/home: Mandrake 10.1, ~30gig, ???; E: Storage, 50gig, FAT32

SI

Yeah, I got that. What I can't figure out is why Linux can't see my 1) Fat32 partition nor my 2) ext2 partition.

[daedalus]

Yeah, but the rub is that there aren't as many features.Oh, but it is far more feature-rich than most give it credit for! :)

Admittedly, it does not pack every and a couple of kitchen sinks in there, a la emacs. But it does everything that a good text editor should be able to and allows you do so in a far quicker manner than most. All it does, however, is text editing, as is appropriate for a Unix application.The other is that even if you don't use those, the learning curve is so steep on it. I had to use either it or emacs quite a bit when SSH'ing into the school computers and I still feel lost in the desert when using it.To be honest, I would say I probably know how to use about 20-30% of its functionality. I'm surprised they didn't make Pico available to those who do not want to go with vi or emacs.There's just too many other proggies out there to learn that I don't really feel like wasting months learning a text editor for a slight speedup.Definitely valid argument and I definitely have no problem with that one. :)

My problem is generally only with people saying there's something wrong with vi itself, not whether or not people *should* use it (as they say, to each, their own).

[daedalus]

All these fun stuff (with partitioning) is why I want to, one day, have the dinero to have a machine buff enough to do VMWare (I've heard that it runs far better on dual-CPU machines).

Oh, to dream. :D

[Karim]

I'm planning to install the lastest FreeBSD and create a dual-boot system with Windows XP. I've worked a little bit with linux through Putty but wanted a unix system at home.

I'm so not getting the love of Linux. Maybe it is just the learning curve, but everything seems to be twice as hard, take twice as long, and is counter intuitive.
No doubt Windows is easier if you've never been exposed to a CLI. The learning curve is huge for those not technically inclined or for those users who use the computer for little more than surfing, e-mail, mp3s and games. I think linux/unix users do a disservice when they understate the learning curve. If you know what you're getting into, that's different. For me, I simply want to learn more about what's under the hood and the multitude of open source software available is also intriguing.

I'm not a Microsoft basher. I've been very pleased with Windows XP.

[HomerJSimpson]

No doubt Windows is easier if you've never been exposed to a CLI.


My wife says I do a good job with her CLI...oh, never mind. :D

[sterlingice]

No doubt Windows is easier if you've never been exposed to a CLI. The learning curve is huge for those not technically inclined or for those users who use the computer for little more than surfing, e-mail, mp3s and games. I think linux/unix users do a disservice when they understate the learning curve. If you know what you're getting into, that's different. For me, I simply want to learn more about what's under the hood and the multitude of open source software available is also intriguing.

I'm not a Microsoft basher. I've been very pleased with Windows XP.
I think you've hit the nose on the head when you say the learning curve is understated. I'm a naturally curious sort when it comes to computers so I tend to play around with everything and I just graduated with a Comp Sci degree after working quite a bit on Linux machines at school. Never mind that I cut my teeth on DOS 5.

So, yeah, while you're being polite and mincing words, it's not just computer-stupid people that have problems. As I've stated quite a few times, the culture surrounding it is frustrating, the "if you can't do this, you're an idiot- leave me alone and go read man pages". This is not to say there aren't pockets of useful people but that's the overriding theme. For finding solutions to Windows problems, I have to leaf through pages of responses that treat the poster like a brain dead idiot but eventually there's an answer- Linux, half the threads, FAQs, etc end with "read the FAQ" or "read the man" or "stop wasting my time".

Linux has a lot of things that are genuinely counter-intuitive, personally, because I think Linux has a real legacy problem. They love to keep things "the way they were" in newer versions despite the fact that it makes no sense. So, unless you've been using stuff for many years, it doesn't make sense.

And I'm in the exact opposite camp- I *am* a Microsoft basher tho Win2K was pretty good and XP is quite good. Far cries from the crap that were 95, 98, and ME.

SI

[Karim]

As I've stated quite a few times, the culture surrounding it is frustrating, the "if you can't do this, you're an idiot- leave me alone and go read man pages". This is not to say there aren't pockets of useful people but that's the overriding theme.
In my experience, that's the way cognescenti are regardless of the field in question. IMO, it doesn't make them experts, it makes them assholes.