NCAA academic reform - teams could lose scholarships

[dawgfan]

NCAA teams could lose scholarships (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2001958)

In general I like the concept of penalizing programs with consistently poor academic performance, but a few elements of this story really concern me:


The NCAA's new calculation generates a score between 0 and 1,000. The number is determined by a points formula that rewards long-term eligibility and retention of student-athletes. Programs can lose points when athletes transfer, drop out, leave for the pros or become academically ineligible while still at the school.

Umm, why the hell should a program be punished because a player leaves early for the pros? What in the hell does this have to do with how that program is doing in terms of academics? Seems to me this is actually a punishment in the guise of academic reforem for teams that are ultra-successful on the court/in the field.

And why should a program be penalized for transfers? There are any number of reasons why a player might transfer out of a program, and not all of them reflect badly on the original institution. Again, successful teams may take an unfair hit here as kids decide they're buried behind too much talent on the depth chart.

And as for the means of measuring academic performance, I don't like the fact that it doesn't appear as though the formula considers mitigating factors. Let's take the Washington Husky basketball program - the previous coach, Bob Bender, didn't emphasize academics, and as a result the classroom performance of many members of the team suffered. Once Lorenzo Romar was hired 3 years ago, players were held accountable by the coaching staff for not just meeting minimum academic expectations but exceeding them. However, Romar faces the possibility of losing a scholarship next season partly due to events that happened under his predecessor, and the fact that some players transferred out when he arrived and another left early for the draft after a season under Romar.

Granted there exists the ability to apply for a waiver from the punishment, but a better system would account for situations like Romar's and look closely at how a program that was struggling academically under a previous coach is now peforming under the new coach.

To me, this "reform" looks like the classic blunt instrument approach to a complex issue.

[HomerJSimpson]

Man, that is stupid. Classic, short-sited, NCAA response.

[miked]

Do they still get free prostitutes though?

[Celeval]

Well, the problem is a distinction between leaving for the pros and dropping out.

If I, as a junior FB player, was about to fail out and decided to leave school; what's the dividing line between being penalized for dropping out and leaving for the pros? Being drafted? What about if I wasn't drafted but signed as an UDFA? Or, if I was signed as an UDFA, given a trial, and was cut after a week? Or, I went off and played in the Arena League - that's pro, right?

[HomerJSimpson]

Well, the problem is a distinction between leaving for the pros and dropping out.

If I, as a junior FB player, was about to fail out and decided to leave school; what's the dividing line between being penalized for dropping out and leaving for the pros? Being drafted? What about if I wasn't drafted but signed as an UDFA? Or, if I was signed as an UDFA, given a trial, and was cut after a week? Or, I went off and played in the Arena League - that's pro, right?

So, what you are pointing out, it is impossible to do this at all. You cannot penalize a school for having players walk away to make millions of dollars, but you also are going to have a hard time deciding between players leaving to "go pro" and just leaving ahead of the hatchet. Therefore, the wisest choice is not to do anything at all.

What are the odds they'll make the wisest choice?

[Tigercat]

Its not just the NCAA's fault, they do have mounting pressure against them. People in general have to realize that lax standards within a university is the individual universities problem. Especially when there is little or no special treatment to athletes given(special treatment is something that can be addressed inside or outside the university, thats academic fraud). If an athlete takes up a universities space by taking 4 years of worthless classes without earning a degree thats something that university has to live with, because it may be no worse than some BS program at another school that looks legit on the surface, but is just there to look legit to give easy degrees. No outside governing body can determine if a university is living up to its own specific academic standards.

[HomerJSimpson]

There is a line that gives me pause in the article.


Penalties, however, will not be imposed unless an at-risk school loses a player who would have been academically ineligible.

Is this saying players that transfer or drop while still academically eligible will not count against the university? That would make a little more sense.

[KeyserSoze]

The more rules the NCAA has, the more rules the universities will break

[Klinglerware]

For what it's worth you can get the APR numbers here:

http://www2.ncaa.org/academics_and_athletes/education_and_research/academic_reform/school_apr_data.html

A 925 or below will get you penalized. A few notables:

Duke 984
Notre Dame 979
Stanford 979
Illinois 973
Michigan 973
North Carolina 970
Rutgers 962
Florida State 959
Kentucky 954
Florida 949
Auburn 944
Colorado 937
Nebraska 927
Oklahoma 925
USC 919

And as a point of reference:

Yale 999
Princeton 994
Penn 993
Harvard 990
Cornell 987
Columbia 982
Brown 971
Dartmouth 966

[dawgfan]

Is this saying players that transfer or drop while still academically eligible will not count against the university? That would make a little more sense.

Yeah - that point wasn't made very clear in the ESPN article, but in follow-up articles locally that seems to be the case.

Still, I don't see why players leaving early for the pros or transferring should be looked-upon as negatives for the schools affected - I ask again, what the hell does this have to do with academics?

[Celeval]

For what it's worth you can get the APR numbers here:

http://www2.ncaa.org/academics_and_athletes/education_and_research/academic_reform/school_apr_data.html

A 925 or below will get you penalized.
That's a 925 or below /per sport/. Which would create problems for some schools.

Alabama (Football): 880
Kentucky (Basketball): 827
Georgia (Basketball): 853
USCal (Basketball): 761

The oddest sport seems to be baseball - most if not all major baseball programs are under 925, because of the propensity for teams to give partial scholarships (therefore there are only a handful of data points), and the NCAA rules about allowing Juniors to jump to the MLB.

[Klinglerware]

That's a 925 or below /per sport/. Which would create problems for some schools.

Alabama (Football): 880
Kentucky (Basketball): 827
Georgia (Basketball): 853
USCal (Basketball): 761

The oddest sport seems to be baseball - most if not all major baseball programs are under 925, because of the propensity for teams to give partial scholarships (therefore there are only a handful of data points), and the NCAA rules about allowing Juniors to jump to the MLB.

Yes, the 925 is per sport (I quoted overall program scores, which don't matter as much). As for your point on baseball, the partial scholarship situation shouldn't matter since the NCAA has ratings for Ivy League schools which don't give out athletic scholarships at all. It would be interesting to see what is going on with Baseball though... If you're talking major programs, I would think that, as you mention, drafted Juniors leaving the program would be somewhat common, affecting the APR that way...

[bosshogg23]

I definitely dont understand why universities are being penalized because students transfer. Many football & basketball players choose a university based on coaches. A coaching staff changes every year almost. Penalizing universities(and in turn students) for that seems ridiculous.

[Leonidas]

The oddest sport seems to be baseball - most if not all major baseball programs are under 925, because of the propensity for teams to give partial scholarships (therefore there are only a handful of data points), and the NCAA rules about allowing Juniors to jump to the MLB.

Not only baseball. In fact, there are probably few, if even any schools that allocate all the allowed scholarships for every sport. And with sports like track or swimming the number of allowed scholarships is significantly lower than the number of athletes it takes to fill out a team. Football and basketball are really the only sports where you can properly fill out an entire roster with full rides. All the other sports rely heavily on walk-ons or partial scholarships to even get a full team on the field.

[Celeval]

As for your point on baseball, the partial scholarship situation shouldn't matter since the NCAA has ratings for Ivy League schools which don't give out athletic scholarships at all.
Many of the scores are noted that they will be adjusted - these are basically teams where there aren't a certain number of data points. There's some sort of progression that is done on those, I think based on the overall school's APR, before the 'final' score is put together. From what I understand, partials aren't counted towards this, but I'm not 100% sure.

[Klinglerware]

APR score overview for football and basketball (from USA Today, I think):

MAKING THE GRADE, MISSING THE MARK

Looking at the Division I schools that met NCAA standards and the major college football and basketball programs that fell short.
Making the grade | Not making the grade

MAKING THE GRADE

The 142 Division I schools whose programs met the new minimum academic performance standard set by the NCAA:

America East (6 of 10): Albany, Binghamton, Boston University, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont.

Atlantic Coast (7 of 11): Duke, Georgia Tech, Maryland, Miami (Fla.), North Carolina, Virginia, Wake Forest.

Atlantic Sun (2 of 11): Belmont, Stetson.

Atlantic 10 (8 of 12): Dayton, Duquesne, Fordham, George Washington, La Salle, Richmond, Saint Joseph's, Xavier.

Big East (6 of 12): Boston College, Georgetown, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Villanova.

Big Sky (2 of 8): Eastern Washington, Weber State.

Big South (5 of 9): Birmingham Southern, High Point, UNC-Asheville, Radford, Virginia Military.

Big Ten (7 of 11): Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan State, Minnesota, Northwestern, Wisconsin.

Big 12 (0 of 12).

Big West (3 of 10): UC-Irvine, Idaho, Utah State.

Colonial (6 of 10): Delaware, Drexel, Hofstra, UNC-Wilmington, Towson, William & Mary.

Conference USA (6 of 14): Marquette, Saint Louis, South Florida, Southern Mississippi, TCU, Tulane.

Horizon (7 of 9): Butler, Detroit, Illinois-Chicago, Loyola-Chicago, Wisconsin-Green Bay, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Wright State.

Independents (1 of 4): Texas A&M-Corpus Christi.

Ivy (8 of 8): Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Pennsylvania, Princeton, Yale.

Metro Atlantic (8 of 10): Canisius, Fairfield, Loyola (Md.), Manhattan, Marist, Niagara, Rider, Siena.

Mid-American (3 of 13): Ball State, Miami (Ohio), Ohio.

Mid-Continent (3 of 9): Oakland, Southern Utah, Valparaiso.

Mid-Eastern Athletic (1 of 11): Maryland-Eastern Shore.

Missouri Valley (7 of 10): Bradley, Creighton, Drake, Evansville, Illinois State, Northern Iowa, Wichita State.

Mountain West (2 of 8): Air Force, Colorado State.

Northeast (7 of 11): Fairleigh Dickinson, Mount St. Mary's, Quinnipiac, Robert Morris, Sacred Heart, St. Francis (N.Y.), Wagner.

Ohio Valley (4 of 11): Austin Peay, Morehead State, Samford, Tennessee State.

Pacific 10 (2 of 10): California, Stanford.

Patriot (6 of 8): American, Army, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Lehigh, Navy.

Southeastern (2 of 12): Mississippi State, Vanderbilt.

Southern (8 of 12): The Citadel, College of Charleston, Davidson, East Tennessee State, Elon, Furman, UNC-Greensboro, Western Carolina.

Southland (4 of 11): Lamar, Sam Houston State, Southeastern Louisiana, Stephen F. Austin.

Southwestern Athletic (1 of 10): Alcorn State.

Sun Belt (2 of 11): Arkansas State, North Texas.

West Coast (5 of 8): Gonzaga, Loyola Marymount, Pepperdine, St. Mary's, San Diego.

Western Athletic (3 of 10): Rice, SMU, Tulsa.

NOT MAKING THE GRADE

The 34 major-college (Division I-A) football programs flagged by the NCAA as APR-deficient:

Score........................... School

802................................Middle Tennessee State
814............................... San Jose State
849............................... Oregon
850............................... Toledo
852............................... San Diego State
854............................... Buffalo
860............................... Temple
862............................... Arizona
862............................... UCLA
868............................... UNLV
870............................... Ohio State
872............................... New Mexico
872............................... Troy
874............................... Louisiana-Lafayette
877............................... Cincinnati
879............................... Nevada
880............................... Alabama
880............................... Central Florida
881............................... Purdue
882............................... New Mexico State
885............................... Washington
887............................... Arizona State
887............................... Texas A&M
892............................... Oregon State
893............................... Houston
894............................... Alabama at Birmingham
896............................... Oklahoma State
896............................... Western Michigan
897............................... Eastern Michigan
898............................... Louisiana-Monroe
899............................... Kansas
901............................... Wyoming
902............................... Marshall
905............................... Louisiana Tech

The 61 Division I men's basketball programs flagged by the NCAA as APR-deficient:

Score........................School

611........................... Fresno State
647........................... Baylor
750........................... Cal State-Fullerton
759........................... Sacramento State
761........................... Southern California
783........................... San Jose State
796........................... Hampton
796........................... South Alabama
800........................... Jacksonville
800........................... Texas Southern
804........................... Louisiana-Lafayette
806........................... New Mexico State
808........................... DePaul
808........................... Louisiana-Monroe
813........................... LSU
815........................... Colorado
818........................... Temple
820........................... Virginia Commonwealth
825........................... Central Connecticut State
825........................... Prairie View A&M
826........................... St. John's
826........................... Washington State
827........................... IUPUI
827........................... Kentucky
833........................... Louisville
833........................... Texas
838........................... Cal Poly
839........................... Northern Illinois
839........................... Texas A&M
840........................... Centenary
840........................... Central Michigan
840........................... Texas-El Paso
841........................... Auburn
841........................... Southeast Missouri State
846........................... Iowa State
846........................... North Carolina State
846........................... Northeastern
848........................... Boise State
848........................... Florida International
850........................... St. Bonaventure
850........................... Western Illinois
852........................... Connecticut
852........................... Tennessee
853........................... Georgia
854........................... Florida A&M
854........................... New Mexico
854........................... South Carolina State
857........................... George Mason
857........................... UNLV
860........................... Akron
860 ........................... East Carolina
860........................... South Carolina
862........................... Arizona State
862........................... Southwest Texas State
864........................... McNeese State
865........................... Eastern Michigan
865........................... Houston
865........................... Long Beach State
865........................... Wyoming
870........................... Georgia State
870........................... Western Kentucky

[Glengoyne]

I definitely dont understand why universities are being penalized because students transfer. Many football & basketball players choose a university based on coaches. A coaching staff changes every year almost. Penalizing universities(and in turn students) for that seems ridiculous.
The things that hurt a school like players leaving early for the pros, and the things that don't help a program like walkons that earn scholarships never count, seem to boggle the mind.

The NCAA is nuts. Their academic requirements on highschool curiculum and their enforcement thereof are pretty laughable. They have punished high school students who actually took college courses because they never completed their basic highschool courses like basic math, english, or history. They didn't seem to consider that instead the students had been successfully completing College english and history courses, actually earning college credits.

[sterlingice]

MAKING THE GRADE

The 142 Division I schools whose programs met the new minimum academic performance standard set by the NCAA:

Big 12 (0 of 12).
Woohoo! At least we're consistent ;)

SI

[wbatl1]

Southeastern (2 of 12): Mississippi State, Vanderbilt.



So whats new?

[HomerJSimpson]

So whats new?

I think there is a movement on the way to kick them both out. Underachievers!

[JeeberD]

The 61 Division I men's basketball programs flagged by the NCAA as APR-deficient:

Score........................School

840........................... Texas-El Paso


GO MINERS!!!

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah - that point wasn't made very clear in the ESPN article, but in follow-up articles locally that seems to be the case.

Still, I don't see why players leaving early for the pros or transferring should be looked-upon as negatives for the schools affected - I ask again, what the hell does this have to do with academics?
If they are academically ineligible when they transfer or leave early, then it damned well better count against the schools! That is probably a big reason why they transfered or left for the pros.

I applaud these rules. About time the NCAA realized the student in student-athletes.

[dawgfan]

If they are academically ineligible when they transfer or leave early, then it damned well better count against the schools! That is probably a big reason why they transfered or left for the pros.

I applaud these rules. About time the NCAA realized the student in student-athletes.


If they are academically ineligible when they transfer or leave early for the pros, I would support docking the schools for that - however, the way the article reads, it's not clear that such a distinction is made.

Would you agree that players transferring or leaving early for the pros that are not academically ineligible shouldn't count against their schools?

And as an aside, I think you'll find that a great many players that transfer or leave early for the pros are in fact not academically ineligibile - their decisions are based on other things entirely.

[Glengoyne]

Fresno's Basketball team is a shambles. Between the loss of scholarships from screwups during Tarkanian's reign, and the new coach(Ray Lopes) actually enstilling some discipline into the team, It will be a while before Fresno's score gets any better. Last year Lopes kicked the three best players off the team for various violations. Considering one of them is now on trial for murder, I think it's pretty clear he did the right thing, but it really puts the damper on the score above. Although, we are NUMBER 1

[dawgfan]

OK, I just heard an interview with the UW AD Todd Turner who was part of the NCAA committee that originally drew up this legislation. He explained that the provision that deals with players leaving early for the pros only counts against the school if that player was not on track to be eligible the next season, which makes a lot more sense than how it was originally reported in the press. He didn't specify whether the same standard applied to transfer students as well, but based on the stipulation for those leaving early for the pros, it seems likely this would also apply to transfers.