Baseball Mogul 2006 Preview Thread (Yes, Virginia, there ARE lefties and righties!)

[Ben E Lou]

Alrighty, I'm going to do this similarly to the way I did the OOTP preview, just sort of "dynasty-style." Feel free to post questions/comments.


STARTUP
First off, the game can be started in any year from 1901-2005. Past seasons are compatible with the Lahman database. You can also use a custom roster set, created by yourself or other users. Then, when picking a team, the following options are available (as per the BM2K6 Help File):

NEW GAME DIALOG
The New Game Dialog lets you set all the parameters of your game of Baseball Mogul before you begin play:

Mogul Name: Type your name in this field. This is the name by which your accomplishments will be recorded in the Baseball Mogul Hall of Fame if you earn a place.

Team City: Choose the city of the team that you would like to play from among the list. Because New York and Chicago each have two teams, they are each listed twice. If you wish to play a New York or Chicago team, be sure you have selected the exact team you wish to play.

Team Name: This field contains the name of the team you are controlling. You can personalize your game by editing this name.

Difficulty: This controls the intelligence of your computer opponents during Baseball Mogul. On the lowest and highest difficulty levels, the game engine and financial model are also altered somewhat. On the 'Fan' level, you actually have an easier time being profitable than the computer-controlled opponents. But on the 'Mogul' level, the cards are stacked against you.

The levels of difficulty in Baseball Mogul are:




Fan (Beginner)
Coach (Intermediate)
Manager (Difficult)
Mogul (Very Difficult)
After you have selected your team and preferences, click the 'Play' button and Baseball Mogul will take you to the Standings Screen (http://Standings.htm) at the beginning of your first season. Your team is capitalized among the list of teams in your league.

Advanced New Game Options

There are three items advanced users can employ to provide variety in a new game of Baseball Mogul:

Shuffle Players
This randomly distributes all the players in the league. If you've gotten tired of starting with the standard team rosters, you may wish to choose this option and see how you do with a random selection of players to start with.

Equalize Cities
A team's success in Baseball Mogul depends largely on the resources of it's home city. Checking 'Equalize Cities' causes all cities to be given the same population and financial stats. This will put all teams on a level playing field as far as monetary resources. When running a league, you can combine this feature with a draft (using Roster File) or with Shuffle Players to create a more balanced game. Team financial stats are equalized only if you choose Equalize Cities AND Shuffle players.

Simulation Mode
Part of what makes Baseball Mogul enjoyable is the degree of unpredictability each time you play. One young player might develop into a superstar the first time you play, and be mediocre the next. Simulation Mode removes much of this randomness from Baseball Mogul. Players will mature and age along pretty much the same career path every time you play in Simulation Mode. This is useful if you wish to use Baseball Mogul as a tool to predict the outcome of a baseball season or a player's career. Or if you just prefer a more predictable version of the game.

Draft Players
Checking this box will initiate a Fantasy Draft (http://FantasyDraft.htm) at the start of your new game.I don't see the option that I'd best want to start with: fictional players. Here's hoping that Clay will add a fictional universe creator before release. I'll definitely make that suggestion. With no fictional option, I decide to start with the 2005 Atlanta Braves. (Surprise, surprise)


In the next post, I'll take a look at the drop-down menus and see what's new there.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Is there a release date for the game yet?

[CraigSca]

Ben,

Not sure the last time you played BBM, but so far all these paramaters were in the last version I tried (last year). Just a heads-up that there's nothing new here (thus far, anyway).

[Swaggs]

I liked the version that had the vowels switched out in players' names to avoid legalities.

Berry Bends ruled.

[QuikSand]

Berry Bends ruled.

I bet he used both the croam and the claur.

[CraigSca]

For some reason Jein Uncerncuen never lived up to his hype.

[Ben E Lou]

(OK. I'd been holding this post pending permission to post screen shots from Clay. Just received it, so here goes...)

The first obvious big change is in the Team-->Rosters screen. Check it out:

http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/roster.jpg


Yup, a *FULL* roster, including rookie leaguers. We'll see how well the AI manages the roster and all of that, but it is good to see this. Documentation isn't in yet for this screen, but based on the numbers to the right, it would appear that 70 batters and 55 pitchers can be in your organization. Considering that the major league roster is set to 14 batters and 11 pitchers, I'm going to assume that all five rosters have identical limits, as it makes the math work out.

I'll give Clay props once again on interface. Players can be moved *very* easily from one level to the other with a simple "move to" command from the Team--Pitcher and Team--Hitter screens. They've simply been expanded to accomodate the larger rosters. I've always been very happy with the Mogul interface. Good to see that it wasn't overhauled for the new system.

Since that screenie took up so much room, I'll move on to other new stuff in the next post...

[Ben E Lou]

Ben,

Not sure the last time you played BBM, but so far all these paramaters were in the last version I tried (last year). Just a heads-up that there's nothing new here (thus far, anyway).Last version I played a decent amount was BM2K4, although I purchased 2K5, if I recall correctly.

[Cap Ologist]

Will the game come with an updated manual or do I have to use one from the previous release for awhile and then have no idea what has been updated/changed before becoming turned off to playing the game? Purely a hypothetical situation, nothing like that has ever happened. Seriously.

[Dreslough]

Is there a release date for the game yet?

We are still expecting the download version to be available on March 15th, with the CD-ROM shipping before March 30th.

And there will be a new manual with the game this year.

Clay

[dawgfan]

For some reason Jein Uncerncuen never lived up to his hype.

OK, that one actually took me a minute to decipher. Good one...

[Dreslough]

Ben,

Not sure the last time you played BBM, but so far all these paramaters were in the last version I tried (last year). Just a heads-up that there's nothing new here (thus far, anyway).

Unfortunately the Beta doesn't have updated help files yet.

BB2K6 also has the ability to start in any season from 1901 to 2005. For 2005, we've put a lot more work into the opening day rosters than in previous years, including almost 70 players per team.

The biggest new option is the "Historical Rookies" check box, which automatically puts historical players into the Amateur Draft every year at the age when they would have turned 18 (or 19, depending on their birthday).

I realize OOTP already has this option, but we've put a lot of effort into getting the stats and ratings to feel right for every player and team.

Perhaps just as importantly, when you start in any historical season, the game finds all players that debuted with that team EVEN if they haven't played a day in the majors. So, for example, I just started a game with the 1992 Blue Jays and Shawn Green was a 19-year-old rookie on my Single-A team projected by my scouts to probably be a star player.

Cloy Druslough

[Ksyrup]

That's his BBM name. His licensing rights were too expensive.

[Ksyrup]

This time stamp error thing is really, REALLY pissing me off.

[sovereignstar]

Cloy Druslough

Huh?

[Dreslough]

I'll give Clay props once again on interface. Players can be moved *very* easily from one level to the other with a simple "move to" command

We've also added Drag-and-Drop (Ian gets credit for that one). And you can open the same dialog multiple times. Frex, you can open the Lineup Dialog for the Red Sox and Diamondbacks, and offer trades by dragging players from one dialog to the other (or just move players around if you are already in Commissioner Mode).

The Team-->Roster screen shown also lets you choose from over 100 columns of stats to display and sort by, including new features like which players have No Trade Clauses or are Eligible for Arbitration.

Clay

[Ben E Lou]

I quick-simmed 6 seasons. (This is an option added around 2K2 or 2K3, I think) FYI, from Jan 1, 2006 to Jan 1, 2007 took 2 minutes and 53 seconds, so those great sim speeds are still around. I wanted to get some stats and info on player cards to look at.

TRANSACTIONS are now listed on the player card. (I think added in 2K4).

http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/transaction.jpg

As in OOTP, the transactions aren't divided by type, but there do appear to be a few more things listed.

SUMMARY SCREEN

I like this screen. I didn't notice it in 2K5, if it was there.

http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/summary.jpg

What is wonderful about it is that every player listed is clickable. I can go straight to Langerhans's player card to renegotiate with him if I want to...which I'll do in the next post...

[Huckleberry]

Perhaps just as importantly, when you start in any historical season, the game finds all players that debuted with that team EVEN if they haven't played a day in the majors. So, for example, I just started a game with the 1992 Blue Jays and Shawn Green was a 19-year-old rookie on my Single-A team projected by my scouts to probably be a star player.
That, sir, qualifies as more importantly. It's a feature that I've manually implemented in OOTP by editing the Lahman database with varying success.

[Ksyrup]

It would be really nice is the type of transaction could be a sortable tab button, or there was some way to toggle the milestones by type and/or date.

Still, this is far easier to look at than OOTP.

[dawgfan]

Question - in that transactions screen, are the listed columns sortable? I love the stuff it's tracking - milestones, contract stuff, injuries - very cool.

[CraigSca]

Yeah, you're going to HAVE to resign Ryan "Islets of" Langerhans!

I see one piece that I wasn't a big fan of before - you see the guys rating, and it tells you exactly how good your scouting is (i.e. I know Jim Edmonds is anywhere from a 61 to 63). You therefore know what to expect from each and every player with no surprises.

[Ben E Lou]

Hey Clay, I see you're still reading, so I won't wait for the beta board access for this one: Atlanta isn't in the AL. :p

[dawgfan]

Also, noting that Jim Edmonds card - it would be worth keeping an eye out for how many aging former star players consent to being in AAA. I don't know if Clay has modeled this or not, but it would be more realistic to see most players in that position opt to retire if they aren't on a major league roster.

[Ksyrup]

Also, noting that Jim Edmonds card - it would be worth keeping an eye out for how many aging former star players consent to being in AAA. I don't know if Clay has modeled this or not, but it would be more realistic to see most players in that position opt to retire if they aren't on a major league roster.
Yep, this looks like OOTP4 and earlier-type issues.

[Ben E Lou]

It would be really nice is the type of transaction could be a sortable tab button, or there was some way to toggle the milestones by type and/or date.

Still, this is far easier to look at than OOTP.Agreed. I would imagine that the technology is in the current game structure to make that happen, because you CAN do something similar on the general Transaction screen:

http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/gentrans.jpg

Note the three buttons at the upper right.

For the first one, you can choose any of the following transaction types: milestones, trades, draft picks, contracts, injuries, awards, all types. The other two can pick any year, and any team (or all teams). Every player reaching a milestone (or in the other "transactions" types) can be clicked on and his player card comes up. Pretty nice.

[Ben E Lou]

Also, noting that Jim Edmonds card - it would be worth keeping an eye out for how many aging former star players consent to being in AAA. I don't know if Clay has modeled this or not, but it would be more realistic to see most players in that position opt to retire if they aren't on a major league roster.Agreed. I'll check on it, but Edmonds shouldn't be sticking around to hit 31 homers in AAA ball. It would be one thing if he played half a season down there in 2009 (like Rickey, hoping to get called up). However, he played the full year at AAA, then played half of the next in AA. Dude needs to hang 'em up.

[Ben E Lou]

A screenie of the overhauled renegotiation process:
http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/reneg.jpg



Here's the help for this screen:
CONTRACT NEGOTIATION

This dialog box lets you negotiate:



a contract with a Free Agent OR
a contract extension with one of your current players
Contract Negotiation takes the form of setting the contract parameters and clicking 'Submit Offer'. (The player's current demands are shown on the right side of the screen).

If the player turns down your offer, the player will usually adjust their demands. So, always check the player's side of the negotiation to see what terms he wants in the deal.

Younger players will generally want a higher salary for longer contracts, while older players will be willing to accept a lower salary in exchange for a longer commitment.

<table align="center" border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="80%"> <tbody> <tr bgcolor="#ccccff"> <td width="10%">Button</td> <td width="90%">Function</td></tr> <tr> <td width="10%">Scouting</td> <td width="90%">Open a Scouting Report for the player.</td></tr> <tr> <td>Submit Offer</td> <td>Submit your contract offer (as defined by the terms on the left side of the dialog box).</td></tr> <tr> <td width="10%">Accept Player Demands </td> <td width="90%">Accept the player's currently displayed contract (the terms displayed in the right side of the dialog box).</td></tr> <tr> <td width="10%">Leave Negotiating Table </td> <td width="90%">Decline the currently displayed contract and close the dialog box. This does not release a player -- it simply ceases negotiations until later.</td></tr> <tr> <td width="10%">Release Player </td> <td width="90%">Decline the contract and release the player from your team.</td></tr></tbody> </table> Player Personalities and Negotiations

Negotiating a contract with a player can be a tricky proposition. You don't want to pay too much, but if you offer too little you can alienate the player you are talking with.

A player's mood is indicated by the "happy face" next to the word "Rumors" in the Contract Negotiation screen (this icon can also be seen in the upper right section of the Scouting Report). Happy players will generally sign contract extensions for their current team for someone less than their market price.

Accepting a player's demands is generally the easiest way to improve the player's mood, but you might end up paying more than you needed to. Submitting an offer that the player rejects may worsen his mood (and increase his asking price). Players with pesonality descriptions such as "egotistical", "boastful", or "self-centered" will be the most offended by low contract offers.Ok. That last sentence MAY be Kleenex material, if it works right. More on personality types later...



At any rate, just to run a little "mini-test," he accepted the contract he wanted with a $1.95M team option for one season. He would not accept $1.75M team option. Not bad there, I'd say. It'll take some time to see how well the player personalties and team and player options interact with regard to renegotations. Right now, as I'm just in the "overview" phase of this preview, I'm not going to dig that deeply. I'll try to look at that tomorrow morning, which is when I'll probably be able to start actually playing this game.

[Ksyrup]

That's what has always been wrong with the OOTP negotiations - my least favorite part of the game. You get no info on what the guy wants, and it's usually 2 or 3 strikes and you're out. I've always hated the way OOTP does that. At least here, we get an idea of what he wants and can adjust accordingly, with a little warning when we're about to lose him completely (it appears, anyway).

[dawgfan]

Accepting a player's demands is generally the easiest way to improve the player's mood, but you might end up paying more than you needed to. Submitting an offer that the player rejects may worsen his mood (and increase his asking price). Players with pesonality descriptions such as "egotistical", "boastful", or "self-centered" will be the most offended by low contract offers

This is good stuff. Any idea if the player mood is something limited to just negotiations, or whether the mood will actually affect performance as well?

[jbmagic]

wow i like that team option, player option and contract clauses on the negotiation screen.

[condors]

probally not something Skydog can answer but any word on how the PBP is?

Do you have any control being a manager?

[Cuckoo]

Hmm... interest cautiously raised...

[Ben E Lou]

More on extensions....

Looking at other players to negotiate with, I see the following messages under "rumors":



Mike Hessman cares about more than money.
Money isn't Matt's number one priority.
Pendenault is happy to be in Atlanta. He might not be able to develop as well on another team. (Pretty promising commentary. This guy sucks, but because I auto-ran my team through half this season without signing FA's, he's a starter. Dang right he wouldn't be able to develop as well on another team, 'cause his butt would be on the BENCH!)
DeWayne Wise is willing to compromise to stay with the Braves.
McCarthy likes Atlanta. He doesn't want to leave.
I'm going to sim forward to free agency, to see what other "rumors" will be out there. I only have five guys, and they have five different messages. That's pretty promising, I'd say.

[Ben E Lou]

I'll be danged....arbitration!

http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/arbit.jpg

[dawgfan]

I'm in an offseason at the moment, so I can't look at PBP. I'll let you know when I move back into a regular season. I'm still just looking around at this point.

Any idea from the help file if player mood extends to affecting on-field performance, or is it just a part of the negotiating process?

[Ben E Lou]

probally not something Skydog can answer but any word on how the PBP is?

Do you have any control being a manager?I'm in an offseason at the moment, so I can't look at PBP. I'll let you know when I move back into a regular season. I'm still just looking around at this point.

[Ben E Lou]

Arbitration amounts can be raised/lowered in $50K increments. I offered Holt $350K, and got the message, "The Atlanta Braves win arbitration. J.C. Holt is signed to a one-year deal at $350,000."

[Ben E Lou]

The next arbitration-eligible guy wanted $368K. Just to test severe lowballing, I offered him $50K. He won arbitration and got the $368K.

[Arles]

This is a pretty cool feature. I am also interested in seeing how Mogul does. It was the original sports sim and I've tried out each version since.

[dawgfan]

Hmm... interest cautiously raised...

Ditto. I've been jonesing to play a baseball sim, and OOTP and Puresim just haven't done it for me. It may be time to go back and try the old standby...

[Ben E Lou]

Free agency rumors....



Carlos Beltran is adamant about getting every penny that the free agent market will bear.
Albert Pujols will get every dollar that he can get from a team.
It you don't meet Hank's demands, it's unlikely you'll sign him.
Bradley would probably settle into Free Agent very well. (Sure that'll be fixed for release. Reported it to Clay.)
Carlos is looking for a more ambitious organization that the Braves.
Troy Glaus cares about more than money.
Infante is trying to work out a deal with the Marlins.
Money isn't Rob's number one priority.
Martinez would like to sign with a team that is more focussed on winning that {sic} the Braves. (also reported)
Hernandez would be more inclined to sign with the Braves is Tagg Bozied were on the team. (Bozied is listed as one of Hernandez's friends, and both of their personality types are "charismatic.")
Corey Patterson has very little wiggle room in his asking price.
Aubrey would be most comfortable with the Twins. (One of his friends is with the Twins.)
Gabe would be most comfortable with the Diamondbacks. (Again, a friend is in Arizona.)
Jeff wouldn't like Atlanta. He'd rather live somewhere warmer. (What is this guy, a freakin' jungle-dweller? OK, the game gets the benefit of the doubt on this one. The only FA contract he signed before was a four-year extension with the Marlins. I'll be curious to track where Jeff Duncan signs this year.)
Zeringue doesn't think the Braves are committed to fielding a competitive team.
Gerald Laird is willing to give a little in negotiations to be with the right team.
Rajai would like to sign with the Cardinals so he can be with Brent Clevlen.
I'll stop there. 16 different messages, at least, even though some seem to be saying similar things. Next, on to player personalties...

[Ben E Lou]

Personality types...



coy
self-conscious but humble
self-conscious
egotistical and media-friendly
boastful
modest but media-friendly
private
humble but outgoing
violent and silly
aloof
charistmatic and peaceful
media-friendly but gregarious
down-to-earth but sincere
media-friendly
egotistical
peaceful but generous
humble but gregarious
introverted and practical
charismatic but outgoing
aggressive
coy
friendly and peaceful
modest but friendly
silly
fan-friendly but gregarious
media-friendly and charitable
modest and fan-friendly
20+ characteristics, but some can be double up for literally hundreds of combinations. I have NO clue how they work yet, though.

[Icy]

This sounds insteresting, i haven't ever played any mogul game and this could be the first one. The first thing that catched my atention was the players personalities, that i think is a must for all sport sims. I really hope they affect also team chemistry and even game perfomances and not just renegotiations. Any info on that?

[Ben E Lou]

Here's another nice new screen.

http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/alltime.jpg

You can view all-time leaders in 80 different statistical categories from this screen, either single-season leaders or career leaders. Also, by clicking on those little window screens, each category can be expanded to view the top 21 all-time in that category.

[Ben E Lou]

Here's the expanded leader screen. Shows a little more info about each player.

http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/single.jpg

[Ben E Lou]

This sounds insteresting, i haven't ever played any mogul game and this could be the first one. The first thing that catched my atention was the players personalities, that i think is a must for all sport sims. I really hope they affect also team chemistry and even game perfomances and not just renegotiations. Any info on that?There's nothing in the help file about personalties yet, so I don't know. To be honest, I haven't been following development of this game closely at all; I just noticed that Clay seemed to show a new commitment to the game lately. He may have addressed it on his boards (www.sportsmogul.com) at some point, and I just didn't see it. I'm pretty sure he'll be reading this thread, so I'd imagine he'll chime in at some point.

[Ben E Lou]

I see some new scouting report text, too.

[Ben E Lou]

The draft is now a full 6-round draft. Length of draft doesn't appear to be changeable.

Speaking of customization, here is the league editor screen.

http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/leagueoptions.jpg

The "league revenue" and "salary demands" boxes would seem to indicate that inflation is an option in this game, or at least a mogul version of a "financial coefficient." Neither is mentioned in the current help file, so I'd assume they're new features for this version that will be documented by the time of release.

[Young Drachma]

This is exciting. I've been wanting a new baseball game to play for a while now, as for some reason, OOTP hasn't caught my attention since my last good dynasty last year sometime.

[oykib]

Here's the biggest question:

Has Lefty/Righty been implemented in this, BBM's seventh iteration?

[Ben E Lou]

Here's the biggest question:

Has Lefty/Righty been implemented in this, BBM's seventh iteration?Obviously it isn't the biggest question:

<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="4" align="center" bgcolor="#7279b0"> What New Feature(s) Would You Like to See Added for Baseball Mogul 2006?
<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: showthread_pollresults_voted --> You have already voted on this poll. <!-- END TEMPLATE: showthread_pollresults_voted --></td> </tr> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">All-Time Leader Boards (e.g. tracking who beats Aaron's HR record)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">114</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">5.94%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Expanded Salary Negotiations (Counteroffers, Option Years, Signing Bonuses, No-Trade Clauses etc.)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">121</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">6.30%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Historical Rookies (i.e. when playing pre-2004, new rookies won't be random, but will come from historical data)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">101</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">5.26%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Full Minor League System (3 separate minor league teams with their own lineups and schedules)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">88</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">4.58%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Player Personality Ratings (Loyalty, Attitude, etc)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">88</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">4.58%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Realistic Expansion/Contraction</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">79</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">4.11%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Editable League Structure, Interleague Play, and Playoffs</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">68</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">3.54%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Manager Signings/Firings</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">80</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">4.17%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Platoon splits (lefty/righty stats and lefty/righty lineups)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">76</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">3.96%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Editable Number of Pitchers Per Team and Roster Sizes</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">62</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">3.23%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Enhanced Play-By-Play: Triple Plays, Double Switches, Taking a Base on Defensive Indifference, Ejections, etc.</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">58</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">3.02%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Salary Caps and Revenue Sharing</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">58</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">3.02%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Enchanced Injury Engine (the ability to play hurt, e.g. "he's at 85%" etc.)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">67</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">3.49%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Interactive Play-By-Play (e.g. choose when to pinch hit, sacrifice, steal, bring in relievers etc.)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">55</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.86%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Increased Maximum League Size (more than 34 teams)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">45</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.34%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Stadium improvements (e.g. luxury suites, additional seats)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">59</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">3.07%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Player Morale, Happiness, Hot Streaks etc.</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">66</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">3.44%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Expanded revenue options (merchandise, concessions, media contracts etc.)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">50</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.60%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Ability to Move Pitcher's Slot to any Position in the Batting Order</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">37</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">1.93%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Use a Pitcher as a Position Player or Vice Versa</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">40</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.08%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Computer-controlled commissioner (vetoes cash-only trades, disallows team movement, etc.)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">44</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.29%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Other [non-lefty/right] split stats (home/away, day/night, runners-in-scoring-position, month-by-month)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">48</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.50%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">'Team Options' Slider for Percentage of Games to start Alternate Starters</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">40</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.08%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Computer-controlled owner (that sets your budget and/or fires you for poor performance)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">45</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.34%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Three-way trades</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">62</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">3.23%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Pitch-by-pitch interaction (e.g. choose which pitch to throw to what location in what count; as batter, guess pitches)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">31</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">1.61%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Minor-league TOTALS in Scouting Report</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">46</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.40%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Schedule Editor</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">34</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">1.77%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Playoff TOTALS in Scouting Report</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">44</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.29%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Drag and drop interface</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar1-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">31</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">1.61%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">New Screen and Dialog background artwork</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">28</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">1.46%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Rule 5 Draft</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">47</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">2.45%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Other (please describe below)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">8</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">0.42%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td colspan="2" align="right" bgcolor="#7279b0">Total:</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#7279b0">182 votes</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#7279b0">100%</td></tr></tbody> </table>

[Buccaneer]

In playing with the Lahman database and setting up a historical season (say, 1951), if Simulation Mode is ON, how predictable will be the results? I mean, is there still some degree of unpredictability that some past HOF just might not develop fully? It sounds like with this OFF, it becomes a random crapshoot. I'm just wondering of a happy medium.

[Ben E Lou]

OK. This is kind of cool, yet creepy, at the same time:

http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/yaz.jpg

If there's an accompanying news story, then I can get behind it, I think.

[Ksyrup]

Death usually robs most people of the opportunity to show off their skills, I think.

[Buccaneer]

I assume there's an .ini type file that can change colors? That fetching peach doesn't do it for me.

[Barkeep49]

Until today I never tought I'd play Baseball Mogul again and suddenly with OOTP being far off and Puresim no longer doing it for me, Mogul is looking very attractive.

[Buccaneer]

Same here. I had wanted to play baseball again but my only choice was to go back to OOTP5 because v6 didn't do it for me. That seemed kinda silly. The last time I saw BM was a demo in 2000. It sure has come a long ways.

[Ben E Lou]

Until today I never tought I'd play Baseball Mogul again and suddenly with OOTP being far off and Puresim no longer doing it for me, Mogul is looking very attractive.I'm *really* hoping this franchise can get up off the floor with this version. The skeleton appears to be there. The big question is if all the new stuff works to my satisfaction.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

SkyDog puts IGN, Gamespy, Gamespot and all the rest to shame.

Seriously, who wouldn't buy a SkyDog gaming magazine?

[jbmagic]

wow

On league editor screenshot, you can enter year when woman can enter the league. That very interesting.

[Bad-example]

While I have vowed never to spend money on a Mogul product again, I hope they find some success with this latest version.

[dawgfan]

I seem to recall in the version of BBM that somewhere down the road women's names entered the mix, so I don't think this is a new thing. Being able to set when (if?) they do so is new (at least since BBM2000, the last one I played).

[sovereignstar]

As long as there's no crying...

[dawgfan]

OK. This is kind of cool, yet creepy, at the same time:

If there's an accompanying news story, then I can get behind it, I think.

I would think there's some kind of flag within the game that occurs when a player is considered retired - once this happens, the scouting report ought to change to something that describes what kind of hitter he was in his prime, or is simply blank.

[jbmagic]

As long as there's no crying...


i can see it now, Woman will have to take certain time of the month off for PMS. :)

[FBPro]

I may actually have to check this one out, if nothingelse it has a nice look and maybe a different diversion.

[Cap Ologist]

And there will be a new manual with the game this year.

Clay
Shut up.

Just shut up. You had me at "And there will be a new manual with the game this year."

[Swaggs]

I can't remember the last version of BBM I played, but there were women, animals, and robots, if I recall correctly.

[TazFTW]

Women, aliens, and robots were in the first version of Baseball Mogul. I know this as it is the only version I have.


(well, women as players and aliens & robots as agents. Don't remember if aliens and robots became players.)

[Suicane75]

Clay oughta give Skydog commision. I'm not saying i'm buying it, but the chances are much better than they were yesterday.

[Eaglesfan27]

Clay oughta give Skydog commision. I'm not saying i'm buying it, but the chances are much better than they were yesterday.
Same here.

[Zippo]

Clay oughta give Skydog commision. I'm not saying i'm buying it, but the chances are much better than they were yesterday.
definitely, Skydog made me want to give this game a try as well.

[Ben E Lou]

Ran some overnight tests to take a look at average player age of everday players (which is one of my pet peeves in OOTP--with default settings leagues are usually 1.5-2 years too old). A couple of comments, one positive, and one negative:

POSITIVE: It is VERY easy to export any data from the game, including data from one team, either league, or the entire universe. As Clay mentioned earlier, on the Team-->Roster screen, you can pick what fields are shown in the report, and there are 8 default reports that can be loaded. Point being, it was VERY easy to grab the average age for >350 AB players. I just selected the entire league, included age and AB's, sorted by AB's, right-clicked and selected "Copy Players to Clipboard," opened Excel, pasted into Excel, did a massive deleted of players under 350 AB's, and then ran the "AVERAGE" function on age. This export feature should be a HUGE help for dynasty reporting. I'll give an example in a moment.

NEGATIVE: Just like OOTP, not enough young players are getting into the league when they should. Average age of >350 AB players should be aprox. 28.8. It is running in the 32 range right now in Mogul. I've reported this issue to Clay.

Here's an example of an export that took me about 30 seconds to do:

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 473pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="627"> <col style="width: 92pt;" width="123"> <col style="width: 67pt;" width="89"> <col span="2" style="width: 26pt;" width="34"> <col style="width: 24pt;" width="32"> <col style="width: 21pt;" width="28"> <col style="width: 23pt;" width="30"> <col span="2" style="width: 27pt;" width="36"> <col style="width: 35pt;" width="46"> <col style="width: 27pt;" width="36"> <col style="width: 26pt;" width="34"> <col style="width: 26pt;" width="35"> <col style="width: 26pt;" width="34"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 92pt;" x:str="Player Name " height="17" width="123">Player Name </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 67pt;" width="89">Free Agency</td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 26pt;" x:str=" AB " width="34"> AB </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 26pt;" x:str=" R " width="34"> R </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 24pt;" x:str=" H " width="32"> H </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 21pt;" x:str=" 2B " width="28"> 2B </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 23pt;" x:str=" 3B " width="30"> 3B </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 27pt;" x:str=" HR " width="36"> HR </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 27pt;" x:str=" RBI " width="36"> RBI </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 35pt;" x:str=" Avg " width="46"> Avg </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 27pt;" x:str=" SB " width="36"> SB </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 26pt;" x:str=" CS " width="34"> CS </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 26pt;" x:str=" K " width="35"> K </td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 26pt;" x:str=" BB " width="34"> BB </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Correa, Ramon</td> <td>No</td> <td x:num="" align="right">594</td> <td x:num="" align="right">80</td> <td x:num="" align="right">160</td> <td x:num="" align="right">30</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">26</td> <td x:num="" align="right">96</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.26900000000000002" align="right">0.269</td> <td x:num="" align="right">2</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">107</td> <td x:num="" align="right">86</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Clark, Adam</td> <td>No</td> <td x:num="" align="right">494</td> <td x:num="" align="right">82</td> <td x:num="" align="right">139</td> <td x:num="" align="right">24</td> <td x:num="" align="right">3</td> <td x:num="" align="right">35</td> <td x:num="" align="right">97</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.28100000000000003" align="right">0.281</td> <td x:num="" align="right">2</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">69</td> <td x:num="" align="right">55</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Mizutani, Nagafusa</td> <td>No</td> <td x:num="" align="right">444</td> <td x:num="" align="right">71</td> <td x:num="" align="right">116</td> <td x:num="" align="right">18</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">45</td> <td x:num="" align="right">108</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.26100000000000001" align="right">0.261</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">1</td> <td x:num="" align="right">113</td> <td x:num="" align="right">64</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Karren, Tobey</td> <td>No</td> <td x:num="" align="right">438</td> <td x:num="" align="right">44</td> <td x:num="" align="right">112</td> <td x:num="" align="right">19</td> <td x:num="" align="right">2</td> <td x:num="" align="right">1</td> <td x:num="" align="right">19</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.25600000000000001" align="right">0.256</td> <td x:num="" align="right">10</td> <td x:num="" align="right">2</td> <td x:num="" align="right">46</td> <td x:num="" align="right">41</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Platz, L.T.</td> <td>No</td> <td x:num="" align="right">418</td> <td x:num="" align="right">81</td> <td x:num="" align="right">113</td> <td x:num="" align="right">14</td> <td x:num="" align="right">2</td> <td x:num="" align="right">17</td> <td x:num="" align="right">48</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="00.27" align="right">0.270</td> <td x:num="" align="right">5</td> <td x:num="" align="right">2</td> <td x:num="" align="right">54</td> <td x:num="" align="right">129</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Insley, Neil</td> <td>Yes</td> <td x:num="" align="right">366</td> <td x:num="" align="right">68</td> <td x:num="" align="right">117</td> <td x:num="" align="right">15</td> <td x:num="" align="right">2</td> <td x:num="" align="right">35</td> <td x:num="" align="right">84</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="00.32" align="right">0.320</td> <td x:num="" align="right">1</td> <td x:num="" align="right">1</td> <td x:num="" align="right">102</td> <td x:num="" align="right">31</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Lizarraga, Rafael</td> <td>No</td> <td x:num="" align="right">275</td> <td x:num="" align="right">19</td> <td x:num="" align="right">64</td> <td x:num="" align="right">4</td> <td x:num="" align="right">8</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">19</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.23300000000000001" align="right">0.233</td> <td x:num="" align="right">5</td> <td x:num="" align="right">1</td> <td x:num="" align="right">39</td> <td x:num="" align="right">3</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Cepeda, Efrain</td> <td>No</td> <td x:num="" align="right">264</td> <td x:num="" align="right">36</td> <td x:num="" align="right">67</td> <td x:num="" align="right">11</td> <td x:num="" align="right">1</td> <td x:num="" align="right">19</td> <td x:num="" align="right">60</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.254" align="right">0.254</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">70</td> <td x:num="" align="right">48</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Casero, Raul</td> <td>No</td> <td x:num="" align="right">185</td> <td x:num="" align="right">26</td> <td x:num="" align="right">55</td> <td x:num="" align="right">5</td> <td x:num="" align="right">2</td> <td x:num="" align="right">5</td> <td x:num="" align="right">23</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="0.29699999999999999" align="right">0.297</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">50</td> <td x:num="" align="right">24</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Steiner, Tom</td> <td>No</td> <td x:num="" align="right">164</td> <td x:num="" align="right">16</td> <td x:num="" align="right">46</td> <td x:num="" align="right">5</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">8</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="00.28" align="right">0.280</td> <td x:num="" align="right">2</td> <td x:num="" align="right">0</td> <td x:num="" align="right">34</td> <td x:num="" align="right">12</td> </tr></tbody> </table>

[Ben E Lou]

Above export, cleaned up quickly with FrontPage (much better than posting directly from Excel on WYSIWYG editor)

<table height="218"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl25" style="width: 92pt;" x:str="Player Name " align="center" height="15" width="123">Player Name </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 67pt;" align="center" height="15" width="89">Free Agency</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 26pt;" x:str=" AB " align="center" height="15" width="34"> AB </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 26pt;" x:str=" R " align="center" height="15" width="34"> R </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 24pt;" x:str=" H " align="center" height="15" width="32"> H </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 21pt;" x:str=" 2B " align="center" height="15" width="28"> 2B </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 23pt;" x:str=" 3B " align="center" height="15" width="30"> 3B </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 27pt;" x:str=" HR " align="center" height="15" width="36"> HR </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 27pt;" x:str=" RBI " align="center" height="15" width="36"> RBI</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 35pt;" x:str=" Avg " align="center" height="15" width="46"> Avg </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 27pt;" x:str=" SB " align="center" height="15" width="36"> SB </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 26pt;" x:str=" CS " align="center" height="15" width="34"> CS </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 26pt;" x:str=" K " align="center" height="15" width="35"> K </td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 26pt;" x:str=" BB " align="center" height="15" width="34"> BB </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td align="center" height="16">Correa, Ramon</td> <td align="center" height="16">No</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">594</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">80</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">160</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">30</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">26</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">96</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.26900000000000002" align="center" height="16">0.269</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">2</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">107</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">86</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td align="center" height="16">Clark, Adam</td> <td align="center" height="16">No</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">494</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">82</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">139</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">24</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">3</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">35</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">97</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.28100000000000003" align="center" height="16">0.281</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">2</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">69</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">55</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td align="center" height="16">Mizutani, Nagafusa</td> <td align="center" height="16">No</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">444</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">71</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">116</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">18</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">45</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">108</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.26100000000000001" align="center" height="16">0.261</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">1</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">113</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">64</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td align="center" height="16">Karren, Tobey</td> <td align="center" height="16">No</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">438</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">44</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">112</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">19</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">2</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">1</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">19</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.25600000000000001" align="center" height="16">0.256</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">10</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">2</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">46</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">41</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td align="center" height="16">Platz, L.T.</td> <td align="center" height="16">No</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">418</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">81</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">113</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">14</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">2</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">17</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">48</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="00.27" align="center" height="16">0.270</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">5</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">2</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">54</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">129</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td align="center" height="16">Insley, Neil</td> <td align="center" height="16">Yes</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">366</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">68</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">117</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">15</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">2</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">35</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">84</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="00.32" align="center" height="16">0.320</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">1</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">1</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">102</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">31</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td align="center" height="16">Lizarraga, Rafael</td> <td align="center" height="16">No</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">275</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">19</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">64</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">4</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">8</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">19</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.23300000000000001" align="center" height="16">0.233</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">5</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">1</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">39</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">3</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td align="center" height="16">Cepeda, Efrain</td> <td align="center" height="16">No</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">264</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">36</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">67</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">11</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">1</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">19</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">60</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.254" align="center" height="16">0.254</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">70</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">48</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td align="center" height="15">Casero, Raul</td> <td align="center" height="15">No</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">185</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">26</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">55</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">5</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">2</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">5</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">23</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.29699999999999999" align="center" height="15">0.297</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">50</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="15">24</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td align="center" height="16">Steiner, Tom</td> <td align="center" height="16">No</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">164</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">16</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">46</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">5</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">8</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="00.28" align="center" height="16">0.280</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">2</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">0</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">34</td> <td x:num="" align="center" height="16">12</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

[Ben E Lou]

Clay oughta give Skydog commision. I'm not saying i'm buying it, but the chances are much better than they were yesterday.Well, at this point I would say that it has enough new features to be a really fun game and a nice upgrade from the past, provided the answers to these two burning questions are satisfactory:

1. How well do the new features work? Will I really have to pay significantly more money to sign a guy when a team with one of his friends is also pursuing him? Will it cost more to sign a guy who thinks my organization is heading in the wrong direction? Do team and player options make a difference on contracts? Do call-ups/demtions in the expanded minor leagues work well?

2. How buggy will it be on release? As always, I really hope Clay holds it until the obvious bugs are squashed. I've yet to run into anything monumental like a crash bug, but there are still some bugs present.


There are (so far) three "Things I Know For Sure" so far about this version:

1. The two hallmarks of the Mogul franchise are still there: outstanding interface and oustanding sim speed. This version still blows everything else away in these two areas.
2. *Much* more attention has been paid to the customer base. A survey was taken on their web site (posted earlier in this thread) of what were the top new features desired, and they implemented all of the Top 6.
3. This isn't a tiny upgrade to the last version--which was one of the primary complaints about the Mogul franchise in the past several years.

I'd at least say that it deserves attention. I'm going to spend a couple of hours or so this morning actually playing the game, and give some more comments at that point.

[Sharpieman]

I loved Baseball Mogul way back when, I'm kinda sad that I threw away some of the old versions. These screens are real nice I love additions. OOTP never did it for me. The presentation or something was wrong there. One thing I love about the BBM series is the fast simming and it looks like you can still do that. Can't wait to hear more.

[CraigSca]

Ben,

Try to find if there are any busts or booms out of the draft. This goes hand-in-hand with my earlier pet peeve - spend a lot of money on scouting and the effect is lowering the +- range on the player's overall rating. Spend enough money and you pretty much have a bulls-eye understanding of each and every player, including prospects. You therefore can horde the good players because you know exactly who they are (who's career is fading before his statistics show they are, as well as the really good prospects).

IMHO, there should be less variance between the true value of a player and his rating as the player progresses through his career. However, prospects, as we all know, are only a step above wild speculation until they get to the higher levels of the minor leagues. In last year's version of BBM, this wasn't the case.

[Ben E Lou]

Ben,

Try to find if there are any busts or booms out of the draft.I'm at another computer right now, so I need to reinstall the beta and run a bunch of seasons, but that shouldn't take long. (Actually, the numbers I reported yesterday on sim speed were from the slowest machine that I have access to.) I just started a sim up through 2040, and it should be done in, oh a little under a half an hour. ;)

Yeah, I just timed a season from 1/1/07 to 1/1/08 took a grand total of 50 seconds on this machine. :eek:

It is very easy to check this. You have access to all past drafts on the "transaction" screen--and of course every player is clickable right to his player card.

[HomerJSimpson]

Obviously it isn't the biggest question:


So are you saying it wasn't? If there is no lefty/righty, then there is no way I'm buying. That is a fundemental part of baseball.

[Ksyrup]

SD,

How do the BB/K correlations look with pitchers and hitters? For example, in the data you posted above, I see a guy with 129/54 BB/K numbers, yet he only hit .270. Are power pitchers with some control typically better than most soft-tossers, and are the guys with good BB/K ratios typically the best hitters?

On a whole, "out of the box," do the league ERAs/Avgs/HRs, etc., seem reasonable? If one was to start a historical career, do the numbers reflect the era, or is there some sort of file we have to manipulate for hours (like in OOTP) to get the era setting down right?

I know some of these aren't questions you can answer at this point, but they are questions I'm interested in hearing answers to, as they will probably determine whether I give this game a try. I lost interest in OOTP last year, most likely because setting up my leagues was too hard, and I got sick of having to run multiple tests to make sure the "deadball" era simmed properly. Too much work.

[Ben E Lou]

DRAFT BOOMS/BUSTS

First off, it looks like I was a little off: 15 years of draft picks are viewable/clickable, not every single one in league history. Good enough for this check, though. I'm at the end of 2041. Here are the top 10 picks from 2027.

1(1): SP Rodney Longbehn--122-133, 4.19 ERA--led league in strikeouts once (2040), all star twice (2038 and 2040)
1(2): CF Gregg Burns--lifetime .754 OPS. --gold glove once
1(3): 1B James Manning--lifetime .789 OPS-three seasons of >30 HR's
1(4): SP James McGlathery--94-102, 4.36 ERA, but has been very strong the past 5-6 seasons. perfect game once---ERA over 4.00 only once since 2033--probably rushed a bit...born 2008....hit league in 2029, and had 3 1/2 awful season...put it together with 10-9, 3.94 at age 25, and has been solid since
1(5): 1B Ever Padilla--star slugger--lifetime .944 OPS--two seasons of 60+ homers, and five of 40+--7 All Stars, 3 MVPS, 10 Gold Gloves, ROY
1(6): SP Daniel Heyert--107-95, 4.11--1-time All-Star
1(7): C Harry Dixon--lifetime .310 hitter-starter for last 10 seasons--8 Gold Gloves, 1 -time All Star
1(8); RP Herman Hurst--never became a closer--lifetime 31-29, 3.79 ERA in 453 appearances
1(9): RP Luis Clavet--45-41, 3.51 ERA, 238 saves--spent 7 seasons as closer--1-time NL saves leader
1(10): SS Mike Modzinski--complete bust---33 years old now, and has never had a season with >421 AB's


Looking at Padilla's player card made me notice something that made me happy:

http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/padilla.jpg

By the way, it turns out that the AAA listing on his card is a reporting bug, which has been reported to Clay.

As far as booms are concerned, I figure the best way to examine that is to look at some league leaders, and see when they were drafted.

TOP TEN HR HITTERS THIS YEAR
1(5)--67
1(2)--57
2(13)--57
1(22)--52
2(7)--49
5(25)--46
1(7)--46
4(27)--44
1(10)--43
1(16)--41

I can live with that.

TOP ERA PITCHERS THIS YEAR
1(12)--1.82
1(21)--2.28
1(30)--2.40
4(12)--2.64
3(30)--2.70
1(4)--2.71
3(5)--2.88
4(28)--2.97
1(1)--2.99
1(6)--3.00

I can live with that, too.


ACTIVE TOP-FIVE CAREER HOME RUN LEADERS
1(19)--541
1(5)--454
3(30)--452
3(21)--451
1(5)--448

ACTIVE TOP-FIVE CAREER WIN LEADERS
1(1)--290
1(4)--253
1(1)--213
2(12)--203
1(3)--201

(Note--of the next five career win leaders, only one was a first round pick.)


THOUGHTS AT THIS POINT: Booms and busts definitely happen. Right now, the Braves are middle-of-the-road (#14) in scout spending, and have a variance of +/- 8 points. That is pretty significant on a game with a scale of 75-100 for major league caliber ratings. My initial thought, based on past experiences with Mogul, is that as long as you're not using the Yankees, Mets, or Dodgers, there will be times when, in order to keep your star players, you'll have to drop down to middle-of-the-road or worse in scouting. If that is the case, a player rated 83 could be anything from a 75-rating (usually not an everyday player) to 91. Putting the game in commish mode, I can see that there are only 11 players in the entire current universe with *true* overall ratings of 91 or better--and 9 of those 11 put up star-caliber numbers this year. That's a pretty dang wide scout variance.

[CraigSca]

I wonder, however, what the bust's ratings were at draft time. Were they just poor picks by the AI, or were these actual prospects that didn't pan out? I'm crossing my fingers it's the latter.

[Ksyrup]

By the way, it turns out that the AAA listing on his card is a reporting bug, which has been reported to Clay. That means Jim Edmonds wasn't really in the minors, then?

[Ben E Lou]

That means Jim Edmonds wasn't really in the minors, then?I can't be sure, because that career is gone now, but probably not.

[Huckleberry]

Okay, can someone explain why it wouldn't be very easy to implement at least a very basic R/L split theory into the sim engine?

I'm really looking for a new baseball sim. I used to use both DMB and OOTP, but I'm pretty much done with OOTP right now. I'll still use DMB for my league, but I'm looking for a single-player sim.

[shameless plug]FWIW, my league is at http://www.texasprojectionleague.net and I'm looking for a couple of owners for our expansion. And someone that wants to assist with commissioner duties would be greatly appreciated as I just started a new job in a new city and I'm incredibly busy.[/shameless plug]

[Ksyrup]

I'm with you on the L/R thing. I just don't get it. Particularly when we don't even have the option of playing with fictional players, what this means is that if Jesse Orosco pitches 50 innings with a 2.00 ERA, in the game you'd be able to use him in 50 1-inning appearances like a normal reliever, when in real life, he probably would pitch in 90 games to get those 50 innings, and only face lefties.

Even if I'm simming on a global level and not playing/watching each game, I still want the game to approximate real baseball, and right or wrong, lefty/righty matchups are a very real part of the game.

[QuikSand]

Obviously it [L/R splits] isn't the biggest question.

While I certainly understand the context of this post, I think this evidence doesn't really persuade me that this isn't a needed addition. Rather, it mostly persuades me that the fans of this game, who would vote in such a poll, just value very different things in their games than I do.

I remain absolutely staggered that there is a baseball sim game that has seen so much improvement, so much thought, and so much expansion -- that for whatever reason refuses to recognize the very elemental fact that left/right splits in baseball are simply fundamental.

While I generally try to be sensitive to arguments in favor of "simpler" games in favor of more complex ones (to suit the desires of gamers who would prefer such) it's just very hard to reconcile the layered contract negotiations in this game (which seems like a very well-conceived element of the game, but by any reckoning pretty complex) with this idea that recognizing left/right lineups and pitching assigments is "too complicated" for this game. You just can't honestly put those two arguments side by side in my book.


If the poll you posted is a fair representation of what the BM fanbase wants... then I'm not in a position to judge. Implement the things that they want most, I suppose. I wish Clay and company well with it.

But for me, this game has a litmus test, and always will. Until the game recognizes this fundamental aspect of the game of baseball -- it simply demonstrates that it's not taking things seriously enough to be on my buy list.

[HomerJSimpson]

Thanks for confirming I'm nt the only one on the l/r thing. Refusing to add that is suggests this programmer doesn't understand baseball, and therefore this game, no matter how many bells and whistles, is not worthy of my time. How can you make a baseball game for 7 years and not get one of the fundemental parts of the game in it? Baffling.

[Ben E Lou]

Okay, can someone explain why it wouldn't be very easy to implement at least a very basic R/L split theory into the sim engine?I don't think easy/hard is even the issue. They took a poll on their website, and seven or eight features came out as being more important to their customer base. They decided to put the top SIX requested features in--and none of those top six look like small things. As always with text sims from small developers, my guess is that the finite-amount-of-time issue comes into play here more than anything else. These are the top six vote-getters, and the ones that made it in:

<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">All-Time Leader Boards (e.g. tracking who beats Aaron's HR record)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">114</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">5.94%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Expanded Salary Negotiations (Counteroffers, Option Years, Signing Bonuses, No-Trade Clauses etc.)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">121</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">6.30%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Historical Rookies (i.e. when playing pre-2004, new rookies won't be random, but will come from historical data)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">101</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">5.26%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Full Minor League System (3 separate minor league teams with their own lineups and schedules)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">88</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">4.58%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Player Personality Ratings (Loyalty, Attitude, etc)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">88</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">4.58%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">
</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">
</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">
</td></tr></tbody> </table>
My suggestion to those complaining on here, after-the-fact, about it is this: if you care about the game, then give feedback when it is requested. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[HomerJSimpson]

I don't think easy/hard is even the issue. They took a poll on their website, and seven or eight features came out as being more important to their customer base. They decided to put the top SIX requested features in--and none of those top six look like small things. As always with text sims from small developers, my guess is that the finite-amount-of-time issue comes into play here more than anything else. These are the top six vote-getters, and the ones that made it in:

<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">All-Time Leader Boards (e.g. tracking who beats Aaron's HR record)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">114</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">5.94%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Expanded Salary Negotiations (Counteroffers, Option Years, Signing Bonuses, No-Trade Clauses etc.)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">121</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">6.30%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Historical Rookies (i.e. when playing pre-2004, new rookies won't be random, but will come from historical data)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">101</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">5.26%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Full Minor League System (3 separate minor league teams with their own lineups and schedules)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">88</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">4.58%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Player Personality Ratings (Loyalty, Attitude, etc)</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar6-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">88</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">4.58%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">
</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">
</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">
</td></tr></tbody> </table>
My suggestion to those complaining on here, after-the-fact, about it is this: if you care about the game, then give feedback when it is requested. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.


You're ignoring the fact that people who cared about the l/r thing already gave up on this game long ago. The customers he is polling would have probably bought the game anyway.

[Huckleberry]

I don't think easy/hard is even the issue. They took a poll on their website, and seven or eight features came out as being more important to their customer base. They decided to put the top SIX requested features in--and none of those top six look like small things. As always with text sims from small developers, my guess is that the finite-amount-of-time issue comes into play here more than anything else. These are the top six vote-getters, and the ones that made it in:
Actually, that's not the top 6 at the top of the poll results listing. Manager signing/firings is listed below something it got more votes than. Same with platoon splits. L/R splits came in 7th with only 3 fewer votes than 6th. It's important.

[QuikSand]

My suggestion to those complaining on here, after-the-fact, about it is this: if you care about the game, then give feedback when it is requested. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

There's a possible correlary here, too.

After five or six iterations of this game without the addition of something as fundamental to baseball as left/right splits, maybe the real baseball fans just gave up, bailed out on this series, and sensibly migrated elsewhere. Thus, when the poll is taken of those who remained, this was no longer a significant issue.

Again, I really have no quarrel with that business model, and I hope things work out fine -- I think the sports sim industry benefits from every vibrant addition, even those that have zero appeal for me personally, so I'm happy to see this franchise taking an apparent big step forward.

[Ksyrup]

The issue here is whether this type of thing should even be considered a "feature" or "option." It's hard to draw an analogy (maybe someone can come up with something appropriate), but imagine a football game without punting, or one where all defensive players were simply lumped into "linemen" or "backs" with no further delineation of duties. That's what this is akin to, IMO.

It's a major part of the game - statistics demonstrate the correlation. Now, you can quibble with how the general idea is actually implemented by people like Tony LaRussa, who will use 4 or 5 guys in one inning (bringing to mind the Simpsons episode where Burns pinch-hit for Strawberry), but even at its most basic level, it is a part of the game. And as such, it has to be added.

[miked]

Can you do online leagues with Mogul? Like can GMs export and all that shiz? Also, the fact that the export just goes to sloppy text doesn't really bode too well. I would never take all that time just to fix the reports.

[Ben E Lou]

While I certainly understand the context of this post, I think this evidence doesn't really persuade me that this isn't a needed addition. Rather, it mostly persuades me that the fans of this game, who would vote in such a poll, just value very different things in their games than I do.Bingo. To put it bluntly, there are WAAAYYY more potential customers who want it than there are of Mogul fanboys--who probably made up the vast majority of voters in this poll. Based on the fact that they implemented features based on the responses, I firmly believe that if the greater text sim community would continue to give constructive feedback to SportsMogul--as opposed to sitting back on the OOTP and FOFC boards and scoffing/looking down our noses at the game because it doesn't have L/R splits--then they'd make it into an update of this version, or at least BM2K7. As you pointed out, they've gone into great detail in the areas that they DID add this year. Whether we like it or not, it appears that their philosophy is to listen to the feedback on what the customer base wants, above even baseball common sense. From having interacted with Clay, there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that he is a BIG baseball fan, and very knowledgeable about the game. If Jim is perceived as "not listening to his customer base" (a charge which I disagree with, by the way), the very opposite is true about Clay, it would seem: his customer base's word is LAW, to almost a fault.

[HomerJSimpson]

the very opposite is true about Clay, it would seem: his customer base's word is LAW, to almost a fault.


Hasn't he been making this game from the begining? Then this couldn't have always been said about him, because I remember long ago when I purchased BM, and the chief complaint I saw on every messageboard/chat at that times was l/r. He has ignored this complaint for 7 years, and has cost himself many, many customers in the proccess.

[Ben E Lou]

Actually, that's not the top 6 at the top of the poll results listing. Manager signing/firings is listed below something it got more votes than. Same with platoon splits. L/R splits came in 7th with only 3 fewer votes than 6th. It's important.Look at the order they're in, not numberically. Obviously, those things were close, but they left the poll open. The Top 6 at the time they made the decision were the top 6 that they put in the game.

[Ben E Lou]

You're ignoring the fact that people who cared about the l/r thing already gave up on this game long ago. The customers he is polling would have probably bought the game anyway.Not me. I probably wouldn't have bought 2K6, as I barely played 2K5. However, I voted in the poll.

[Ksyrup]

But SD, I was there 5 years ago. I suggested/asked/pleaded for it (nicely). I gave up. Now granted, had the game continued to progress, I might have stuck around and fought the fight a little longer, but that didn't happen so I gave up on the game completely.

However, with as many improvements as have been made, and with this still sitting on the sideline, I get the feeling that any further pleading I do will be about as effective as a request for avatars, the return of the QOTM, and our own board around here (can I get an Amen, FN?).

[HomerJSimpson]

Read my other post on this. I can assure you that Clay understands the ins and outs of baseball very, very well. If there is a problem here, it is that he apparently listens too much to the feedback he gets, and not to his own knowledge of the game.

Remember, Jim commented that his #1-requested feature at one point was NFL Europe, for crying out loud. I'm glad he listened to his own football knowledge, and not the people that requested that, when considering where to spend his time on new versions.


Clay doesn't understand baseball or business if in 7 years he still hasn't added l/r splits.

[Ben E Lou]

Thanks for confirming I'm nt the only one on the l/r thing. Refusing to add that is suggests this programmer doesn't understand baseball, and therefore this game, no matter how many bells and whistles, is not worthy of my time. How can you make a baseball game for 7 years and not get one of the fundemental parts of the game in it? Baffling.Read my other post on this. I can assure you that Clay understands the ins and outs of baseball very, very well. If there is a problem here, it is that he apparently listens too much to the feedback he gets, and not to his own knowledge of the game.

Remember, Jim commented that his #1-requested feature at one point was NFL Europe, for crying out loud. I'm glad he listened to his own football knowledge, and not the people that requested that, when considering where to spend his time on new versions.

[Huckleberry]

Read my other post on this. I can assure you that Clay understands the ins and outs of baseball very, very well. If there is a problem here, it is that he apparently listens too much to the feedback he gets, and not to his own knowledge of the game.

Remember, Jim commented that his #1-requested feature at one point was NFL Europe, for crying out loud. I'm glad he listened to his own football knowledge, and not the people that requested that, when considering where to spend his time on new versions.I agree with your perception of the situation. I also agree it's never wise to exclusively listen to requests.

However, given that this appears to be the way Clay makes his decisions, I can live with it. But I would also think that when he begins to think about the next BBM version, it would seem Manager Firings/Signings and L/R Splits would be the first two features to be added based on the same feedback decision-making criterion.

edit - I'd like to add that based on the amount of work put into this version, the series has caught my eye again. Given my previously mentioned abandonment of the OOTP series (due both to its glitches - which include a L/R split system that makes no sense in the statistical results at times - as well as my time commitments), if BBM adds L/R splits with any level of success I will almost certainly purchase it.

[HomerJSimpson]

I love that my resoponse to Skydog's page three post is on page two. That begs the question, is anything ever going to be done about the timestamp bug?

[Ben E Lou]

Hasn't he been making this game from the begining? Then this couldn't have always been said about him, because I remember long ago when I purchased BM, and the chief complaint I saw on every messageboard/chat at that times was l/r. He has ignored this complaint for 7 years, and has cost himself many, many customers in the proccess.Do you honestly think that Clay reads "every messageboard/chat?" And even if he did, let's go back to the NFL Europe FOF comparison. What those who hang out online can tend to forget is that a vast majority of the purchasers of these games never post on a message board. Jim said that himself about FOFC being a very small portion of his customer base. How often did you ever see NFL Europe requested at The Sideline or FOFC? Not often, and definitely not the most-requested feature. Yet, Jim said it was the #1-requested new feature. So, how can that be? Simple: people who never post at message boards were e-mailing him with feature requests. I'd be willing to bet that the same thing has been true for Mogul.

From personal experience, when I purchased the original Mogul, I was completely unaware that Usenet groups even existed, and I'd never posted at a message board. The only way I knew to give Clay feeback was via e-mail, and that's what I did back then, and over the years, that's been the primary way I've continued to give him feedback--even though he now has a board. I check the Mogul boards every couple of weeks or so, and I voted in the poll, but I certainly was nothing resembling an "active" user. (I have 30 posts in nearly 4 years, and half of those have been in the last two days.)

By the way, I think you should know that the IP issue has been fixed. ;)


Ksyrup:

Same comment. Yes, you were pleading, but who knows how many dozens (hundreds) of e-mails he was getting asking for other stuff?

[Ben E Lou]

The good news is this: I'd imagine he'll be reading this discussion, and perhaps he'll take into account the people who have left over L/R splits.

[HomerJSimpson]

Do you honestly think that Clay reads "every messageboard/chat?" And even if he did, let's go back to the NFL Europe FOF comparison. What those who hang out online can tend to forget is that a vast majority of the purchasers of these games never post on a message board. Jim said that himself about FOFC being a very small portion of his customer base. How often did you ever see NFL Europe requested at The Sideline or FOFC? Not often, and definitely not the most-requested feature. Yet, Jim said it was the #1-requested new feature. So, how can that be? Simple: people who never post at message boards were e-mailing him with feature requests. I'd be willing to bet that the same thing has been true for Mogul.

From personal experience, when I purchased the original Mogul, I was completely unaware that Usenet groups even existed, and I'd never posted at a message board. The only way I knew to give Clay feeback was via e-mail, and that's what I did back then, and over the years, that's been the primary way I've continued to give him feedback--even though he now has a board. I check the Mogul boards every couple of weeks or so, and I voted in the poll, but I certainly was nothing resembling an "active" user. (I have 30 posts in nearly 4 years, and half of those have been in the last two days.)

By the way, I think you should know that the IP issue has been fixed. ;)


Ksyrup:

Same comment. Yes, you were pleading, but who knows how many dozens (hundreds) of e-mails he was getting asking for other stuff?

I would think he was reading his own messageboard, which is where these discussions were taking place. Ben, are you seriously comparing adding NFL Europe to a football game to adding L/R splits to a baseball game? IF Clay knows baseball as you claim, surely he knows that L/R splits are an important part of the game, therefore he wouldn't need to be told. If he does need constant reminders to add fundemental parts of baseball to a sim game, then he does not know the game!

Ben, it is him, not you. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

[Ben E Lou]

Ben, are you seriously comparing adding NFL Europe to a football game to adding L/R splits to a baseball game?If his business model (as it would appear) is "listen to the customer base's feedback, to the exclusion of everything else" then of COURSE I am:

Jim customer base: "We want NFL Europe."
Clay customer base: "We want these 5 to 7 feature more than we want L/R splits."

Again, if you're listening to NOTHING ELSE (as it would appear..they just went straight down the list and put the stuff in), then of course it is a correct comparison.

When did I try to defend the perceived business model?? I said from the start that I think it is a bad idea. I'm not defending it, just offering what appears to be a very plausible answer to the original question I was asked: "Why isn't this in the game?"

[Buccaneer]

Is SD the only previewer? Is there anyone over at Clay's board that have done some tests with historical players and simulation mode?

[HomerJSimpson]

If his business model (as it would appear) is "listen to the customer base's feedback, to the exclusion of everything else" then of COURSE I am:

Jim customer base: "We want NFL Europe."
Clay customer base: "We want these 5 to 7 feature more than we want L/R splits."

Again, if you're listening to NOTHING ELSE (as it would appear..they just went straight down the list and put the stuff in), then of course it is a correct comparison.

When did I try to defend the perceived business model?? I said from the start that I think it is a bad idea. I'm not defending it, just offering what appears to be a very plausible answer to the original question I was asked: "Why isn't this in the game?"

But if that was his business model, then L/R splits would have been in the second incarnation. And if he knew baseball, he would never had made the first without it.

[Ben E Lou]

But if that was his business model, then L/R splits would have been in the second incarnation.How do you know that it was the most-requested feature after the first version? Again, if you'd read The Sideline and FOFC, you never would have guessed that NFL Europe was the most-requested FOF new feature (apart from when Jim said it).

And if he knew baseball, he would never had made the first without it.And if Jim knew football, he would never have made the first without competitive bidding for free agents. And if Markus knew baseball, he would never have made the first without L/R splits. And if Jim knew football, he would never have made the first without play-action passing. And if Markus knew baseball, he would never have made the first without being able to play more than one season. And if Jim knew football, he would never have made the first without draft booms and busts. And if Markus knew baseball, he would never have made the first (oh wait, first, second, third, fourth and fifth) with pitchers striking out 30 batters, walking 100, and winning 20 games. And if Jim knew football.........

I think you get the point.

[Ben E Lou]

Is there anyone over at Clay's board that have done some tests with historical players and simulation mode?www.sportsmogul.com

Once you get there, Malleus Dei told me to tell you to read this:

http://www.benelou.com/fofc/searchbuttonfordummies.jpg

[CraigSca]

Clay has obviously made a conscious decision to not have L/R splits in his game. However, that doesn't mean that he doesn't know baseball as HS has said about 5000 times.

When designing a game, you have to make decisions of what you can include and what you cannot. When I was designing FB, I made a decision to include L/R splits as I think they are paramount to keep the game true to the sport. I did not include groundpall pitcher vs. flyball hitter (and vice versa) which research has shown has the almost the same effect as L/R splits. You can't have everything.

That being said, from a personal point of view, I can't understand why Clay would not include such a thing in his game. It's not a choice I would have made. However, it doesn't mean he doesn't know baseball.

[HomerJSimpson]

How do you know that it was the most-requested feature after the first version? Again, if you'd read The Sideline and FOFC, you never would have guessed that NFL Europe was the most-requested FOF new feature (apart from when Jim said it).

And if Jim knew football, he would never have made the first without competitive bidding for free agents. And if Markus knew baseball, he would never have made the first without L/R splits. And if Jim knew football, he would never have made the first without play-action passing. And if Markus knew baseball, he would never have made the first without being able to play more than one season. And if Jim knew football, he would never have made the first without draft booms and busts. And if Markus knew baseball, he would never have made the first (oh wait, first, second, third, fourth and fifth) with pitchers striking out 30 batters, walking 100, and winning 20 games. And if Jim knew football.........

I think you get the point.

Again, this is my opinion, and no argument is going to change my opinion. If Marcus didn't add L/R splits, I would never had bought his game (and my first version of OOTP was 3. And I do think there was a lot about baseball Marcus didn't know even then, but he seemed to WANT to get the fundementals right). If Jim hadn't continued adding the fundementals of football, I would have stopped buying his product. If Marc's team had continually ignore the fundementals of soccer, they would have never become what they are. And Clay has continued to ignore the fundemental of baseball, therefore will not get my money.

[Ben E Lou]

Clay has obviously made a conscious decision to not have L/R splits in his game. However, that doesn't mean that he doesn't know baseball as HS has said about 5000 times.

When designing a game, you have to make decisions of what you can include and what you cannot. When I was designing FB, I made a decision to include L/R splits as I think they are paramount to keep the game true to the sport. I did not include groundpall pitcher vs. flyball hitter (and vice versa) which research has shown has the almost the same effect as L/R splits. You can't have everything.

That being said, from a personal point of view, I can't understand why Clay would not include such a thing in his game. It's not a choice I would have made. However, it doesn't mean he doesn't know baseball.I agree with pretty much everything you've said there.

[SirFozzie]

No L/R splits?

No way.

[Ksyrup]

Given my previously mentioned abandonment of the OOTP series (due both to its glitches - which include a L/R split system that makes no sense in the statistical results at times - as well as my time commitments), if BBM adds L/R splits with any level of success I will almost certainly purchase it.Just wanted to expand on this comment which was made in passing. Has anyone looked into whether OOTP's L/R splits make much sense, or are at least somewhat realistic? I just don't recall much "investigation" into this particular area of OOTP in the past. Are we unfairly criticizing BBM for not having something another game has, but might as well not have due to implementation issues?

[Ben E Lou]

SD,

How do the BB/K correlations look with pitchers and hitters? For example, in the data you posted above, I see a guy with 129/54 BB/K numbers, yet he only hit .270. Are power pitchers with some control typically better than most soft-tossers, and are the guys with good BB/K ratios typically the best hitters?

On a whole, "out of the box," do the league ERAs/Avgs/HRs, etc., seem reasonable? If one was to start a historical career, do the numbers reflect the era, or is there some sort of file we have to manipulate for hours (like in OOTP) to get the era setting down right?

I know some of these aren't questions you can answer at this point, but they are questions I'm interested in hearing answers to, as they will probably determine whether I give this game a try. I lost interest in OOTP last year, most likely because setting up my leagues was too hard, and I got sick of having to run multiple tests to make sure the "deadball" era simmed properly. Too much work.I'm creating an export with the stats of every player in the current season, so you can take a look more carefully. I'm posting overall league totals right now, because I want to get rid of players with <200 AB's, for better sorting when looking at BB/K ratio players. Here are the totals (for both leagues, combined)

AB: 171412
H: 45153
2B: 7795
3B: 899
HR: 5332
RBI: 21955
R: 22552
K: 32450
BB: 16069
SF: 760
AVG: .263
OBP: .327
SLG: .413
SB: 2100
CS: 837

[Suicane75]

So this game doesn't have L/R Splits? Just Kidding.

I'm on another fence entirely concerning this issue. The original mogul for me was about fun, fast simming. With a good deal of baseball strategy yes, but really, it was about building a winning team, making money, and zooming ahead. The problem came when the game never advanced at all, year after year after year.

I didn't need it to be FOF or even OOTP when it came to "playing" the game, ie: managing, the ins and outs of day to day baseball, but I did want some advancement, and none came.

Looking at some of the improvements, such as the draft, historical aspects, easy print outs and some of the other stuff, I can honestly say that L/R splits don't bother me that much at all.

I guess my point is that I want BM to be the way it was, only a little more advanced.
I don't need L/R splits for that.

[Ben E Lou]

OK. The entire hitter file:

http://www.benelou.com/hittingstatsall.xls

This is every player who got an at-bat in 2041.

[QuikSand]

While this debate over L/R issues is getting a little redundant, let me offer one additional perspective to it. (In no small part because we seem to have the geenral attention of the designer)


For me, I can be very comfortable with a sports sim that does not completely and faithfully represent every facet of the sport -- and in concept, I could probably be okay with a baseball game that didn't include an element as important as left/right splits. I may not speak for a huge contingent here, but I could live with out it, on its own.

However, specific to baseball, and specific to left/right splits -- this is a pretty big part of "team strategy" in a baseball sim, and to me, it's a pretty significant part of what we do in a sports sim. Strictly speaking as a selfish sports sim gamer, I want to be doing things in these games that are meaningful -- these meaningful decisions both add to my basic immersion into the game, and contribute (mightily, I'd say) to the game's overall playability. L/R splits add a good deal in this regard -- when managing a baseball team, I *like* the idea that I can make a fre agency decision to go with two cheap platoon-caliber players at a certain position, I *like* the idea that I can get maximum value out of a left-handed bullpen specialist, and so forth. These things -- though none of them all that monumental in the big picture -- add up to the sort of incremental decision-making that, in my judgment, ought to be the foundation of a baseball simulation. I have said here before that I think baseball sims have an inherent weakness of "not having enough to do" -- I just don't think the genre can stand a dumbing-down like this, which also serves to remove legitimate, and potentially interesting, elements of simulation strategy. (Independent of how important they truly might be in real life baseball)


Hope that perspective copntributes something.

[Ben E Lou]

Looking at the Top 20 guys in terms of BB/K (>200 AB's):



All batted at or above the league average of .263
16 batted .280 or higher
9 batted .300 or higher
You have to go down to #23 on the list (Davin Sockhausen, 53 K, 55BB, .243) to find a guy who hit under .263.

Then, sorting on the top 20 guys in terms of AVG (>200 AB's):



17 had ratios >.500
10 had ratios >.750
6 had ratios >1.000
In total, there were 28 players in the league with >200 AB's with a BB/K ratio at or above 1.000. On the whole, this group batted .290 and slugged .489.

I don't know the exact MLB numbers, but it definitely can be said that guys with high BB/K ratios translate into good hitters as a group.

[rjolley]

Yeah, I'll have to agree with SD on this one. I think BBM has always tried to be a simple, quick, fun way to manage baseball. You don't have to get as bogged down in the details. Was that the best way then? Yes, I loved BBM when it first came out, talked to Clay quite a bit about it, and played it often.

But the market has changed since then. OOTP has become the main computer baseball sim, Puresim is in the market, and BBM is still around. It seems as though Clay has decided to keep the game in the light, quick, fun vein instead of taking it into a simulation of the sport in the same vein as OOTP and Puresim. While some may not agree with that decision, I don't have an issue with it. Why? Because the game is still fun. No need to warm up a lefty to go up against a left handed hitter, then trot in a right hander to face the next hitter, who is right handed? Ok, that's fine. I'll just trot out my best pitcher available to face the hitter, regardless of the side he bats on. That's the way I like to manage anyway.

By no means am I saying the L/R splits aren't important. All I'm saying is just because the game doesn't have them doesn't mean it can't be fun. Just means it's one less thing to think about in building your team.

Oh, I think I thought of an analogy to another sport for the L/R split....it's like leaving out matchups in a basketball sim and just having team defense. And that may bother me, but I enjoy basketball a lot more than baseball, so that's probably why.

[Ben E Lou]

PITCHING STATS: http://www.benelou.com/fofc/pitchersall.xls

[JasonC23]

So let me get this straight...BM doesn't have NFL Europe?

[Ben E Lou]

>50 IP, sorting on K/BB. Of the top 20...



15 had ERA's of 4.00 or less
11 had ERA's of 3.50 or less
3 had ERA's of 3.00 or less
Of the top 20 ERA pitchers....


15 had K/BB ratios of 1.75 or better
13 had K/BB ratios of 2.0 or better
8 had K/BB ratios of 2.25 or better

In all, 43 pitchers had K/BB ratios of 3.00 or better, as a group, they were 326-240 with a 3.91 ERA. (NL ERA was 4.21, AL ERA was 4.45).

[oykib]

If BBM had L/R splits, Clay would get my money.

As things stand, I'll take a wait and see approach.

[Huckleberry]

Can someone point me to the real-life study that shows BB/K ratio for a hitter correlates highly with batting average? With two young children, I've been out of the baseball research loop more than I'd like, but I don't agree that this is necessary intuitively.

I would think it would correlate with OBP more than AVG.

I'm aware of the correlation to pitcher success, but was under the impression it didn't translate nearly as well to hitting.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. I had promised myself I wouldn't go back to this discussion, but I was curious, did a search, and look what turned up:


<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="4" align="center" bgcolor="#7279b0"> How important is the addition of Lefty/Righty stats to Baseball Mogul Online?
<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: showthread_pollresults_voted --> You have already voted on this poll. <!-- END TEMPLATE: showthread_pollresults_voted --></td> </tr> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Essential</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar2-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">8.89%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Very Important</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar3-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">12</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">26.67%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Somewhat Important</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar4-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">18</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">40.00%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td align="right" bgcolor="#dfdfdf">Not Important</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf">http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-l.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5.gifhttp://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/images/polls/bar5-r.gif</td> <td bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">11</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#dfdfdf" width="67">24.44%</td> </tr> <!-- END TEMPLATE: pollresult --> <tr> <td colspan="2" align="right" bgcolor="#7279b0">Total:</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#7279b0">45 votes</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#7279b0">100%</td></tr></tbody> </table>
You can read that poll any way you want to, actually, due to the wording. The "somewhat important" category is a little nebulous. You could say, "well, over 3/4's of people responding said that it is at least somewhat important." Or you could say, "only 1/3 of the people responding said it was very important to them." It was taken in 2001, not very long after they first put a message board up.

[Ben E Lou]

OK. Time to start in on a dynasty. I'll take over the Braves at the end of the 2041 season, so I start right into the offseason. The first thing I notice, when going to look at the team history, is that there is a clickable button that I missed--a nice little addition to team history:

http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/awards.jpg

The recent history is what I'd planned on posting, and here it is:

http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/history.jpg

The Bravos finished 75-87 (4th) in the just-completed 2041 season.

[Jeff Olsen]

Just wanted to expand on this comment which was made in passing. Has anyone looked into whether OOTP's L/R splits make much sense, or are at least somewhat realistic? I just don't recall much "investigation" into this particular area of OOTP in the past.I don't know about accurate but they are most definately random. The Lahman database doesn't include split stats so OOTP and the other games that use it have to create the splits themselves. The actual split stats are available - from companies like STATS, Inc. - which are far too expensive for small companies like OOTP Developments and Sports Mogul. Even big companies like EA have been loath to pay for them.Are we unfairly criticizing BBM for not having something another game has, but might as well not have due to implementation issues?The implementation of split stats have been an issue for Sports Mogul ever since BBM '99. The question has always been "How?", not "Why?'. As for the "Why not?", I think it's that Clay & Ian don't want to and the codes just to go the random route like everyone else. If they could get them for free, they'd likely jump at it in a heartbeat.

[Ksyrup]

I don't know about accurate but they are most definately random. The Lahman database doesn't include split stats so OOTP and the other games that use it have to create the splits themselves. The actual split stats are available - from companies like STATS, Inc. - which are far too expensive for small companies like OOTP Developments and Sports Mogul. Even big companies like EA have been loath to pay for them.The implementation of split stats have been an issue for Sports Mogul ever since BBM '99. The question has always been "How?", not "Why?'. As for the "Why not?", I think it's that Clay & Ian don't want to and the codes just to go the random route like everyone else. If they could get them for free, they'd likely jump at it in a heartbeat.
I'm not talking in terms of accuracy for real players, but rather, is there some rhyme or reason for certain players in the game (real or not) being historically poor hitters against lefties, or that the splits aren't just random year-after-year. For example, do the OOTP stats tend to show that a lefty hitter may hit .200 one year against lefties, but .320 the next, then .220, etc., or is there some continuity there?

I'm more of a fictional player myself, so I don't care about the real-life guys having the correct splits. I just want a poor lefty hitter to always have that problem. A Ryan Klesko (or hell, even John Lowenstein) type.

[Jeff Olsen]

I'm not talking in terms of accuracy for real players, but rather, is there some rhyme or reason for certain players in the game (real or not) being historically poor hitters against lefties, or that the splits aren't just random year-after-year. For example, do the OOTP stats tend to show that a lefty hitter may hit .200 one year against lefties, but .320 the next, then .220, etc., or is there some continuity there?Ah, OK. I believe once OOTP has established the splits, they are consistent.

Your being more interested in fictional leagues probably removes you from BBM's core fanbase anyway.

[ScottVib]

Actually I used to create fictional leagues with BB Mogul back when I used to play it. I would go through and delete every team and all free agents... then go through and create your new league.

Once that is done, you would have an entirely fictional league. With the one constraint that the first batch of players would all become FA's at the same time and everyone had the same payroll for awhile.

It was a good time. I miss the dominance of my Ozarks Militia in Mogul 2000.

[Ben E Lou]

Your being more interested in fictional leagues probably removes you from BBM's core fanbase anyway.That is a *stunning* statement. As fast as Mogul plays, you're into an all-fictional league in a flash. If I recall, I would routinely get through 5-10 seasons in one 2-3 hour evening gaming session. That makes the universe all-fictional pretty quickly. Keep in mind that the database importing is a relatively recent addition to the game.

[CraigSca]

Interesting that you point this out, Ksyrup. Especially in the case of small sample sizes against lefty pitchers you're going to see variances like the ones you listed no matter what. But, I get your point...

Regarding the OOTP lefty/righty code...you'd have to ask Markus himself. I know how the pitcher/batter interaction works at a macro level, but as to how he creates the individual attributes (like lefty/right splits), I'm not sure. I'm not even sure if yearly variances in particular statistics are "created" or if they're purely by chance.

[dawgfan]

OK, yet another post on the L/R issue:

I've worked with Clay before on a baseball game. When I was working on the Microsoft Baseball games for the PC, we licensed BBM to be implemented in the 2001 edition and he spent some time up in Redmond working on implementing the BBM code into our game. It didn't work out that well, but that was mainly due to our interface not working smoothly (it was too slow) and the difficulty of trying to marry the two disparate code bases in a too-short amount of time. Anyway, my point being that accusing Clay of not knowing baseball is laughable; I can tell you from personal experience, and just looking at his work background refutes that idea.

Mogul was obviously created as a simple, quick dynasty baseball game that was focused as much (if not more) on the finances of running a franchise as it was on actual baseball strategy. I'll venture an educated guess that Clay didn't leave L/R splits out because he didn't know baseball, but because in the grand scheme of things, the amount of time necessary to code that into the game wasn't worth the effort for the kind of product he was aiming for.

I'm speculating now, and guys like Craig or Arlie can chip-in and tell me if I'm right or not, but I suspect that to add L/R splits to his game would force Clay to have to re-write from scratch his entire simulation engine as well as make huge modifications to how he tracks data. Such a task would be a major, fundamental overhaul of the game. I'll hazard a guess that all these additions Clay is making for BBM2K6 took less time than re-writing the game to include L/R splits. Given that he has a customer base already that seems to be OK with the L/R split not in there, I can see why it hasn't been Clay's #1 priority.

FWIW, I can live without the L/R in that game - if I'm playing Mogul, I accept the fact that the sim engine is a simplified version of reality. I'm playing mogul more for the finances, the quick-simming of dynasties, the negotiations, building a roster, etc.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to play a sophisticated baseball text sim that had L/R splits, groundball vs. flyball splits, DIPS, and all the rest to ensure the sim engine produced results that match what we know from sabermetric research, and packaged in a dynasty mode with financial models and all the rest like FOF and BBM and the rest.

But I can also see the appeal of playing BBM, and until Jim produces Front Office Baseball or a major improvement happens in OOTP, I may well decide to spend some money on BBM and have fun with it.

[condors]

any chance you could sorta play a game out?

i am interested in play as a manager (l/r splits are something i don't understand not having in but i am most likely going to buy it either way)

[Ben E Lou]

CURRENT SITUATION

FAN LOYALTY: C

FARM SYSTEM: C+

SCOUTING: C+ (margin for error is +/- 9)

MEDICAL STAFF: B

CASH ON HAND: $16.3M

PAYROLL: $65.3M (Yankees are highest at $214.9M, Brewers lowest at $15.3M. 15 teams fall in the $60M-$90M range.)



http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/tickets.jpg



Our ticket prices are tied for lowest in the majors.



TOP PROSPECTS

OK. First off, as I briefly mentioned, the ratings run from 50-100 in this game, and the help file says that: "A '75' indicates average ability in an area. However, players who contribute reliably at the major league level will usually have a number of ratings of '80' or better " So, with that being said, here are our top 5 prospects, according to the game. (Remember, that the margin for error is +/- 9 points--pretty significant, I think.)



3B Sean Shively--This 20-year-old is rated 65 current/80 peak. His ratings are:

Contact: 48

Power: 71

Speed: 76

Eye: 71



Shively was drafted 2(9) in 2039. He had two pretty rough years in rookie ball in '39 and '40, but hit .290 with 33 HR's in a third year at the rookie level this year.



NOTE: FROM HERE ON OUT, BATTERS WILL BE LISTED AS 65/80 (48/71/76/71), MEANING CUR/PEAK (CON/PWR/SPD/EYE)



RF Theo Aubrey--60/78 (46/70/77/66). 1(11) pick last year. 18 years old. Hit .255-20-71-.784 in rookie ball this year.

2B Earl Varchal--51/71 (61/64/60/71). 4(9) pick in '39. Hasn't hit above .253 in rookie ball

SS Alain Legrand--58/71 (61/64/71/64). 4(20) pick by Anaheim in '39. Given unconditional release mid-year in '39. Signed Jan. 2040 by Atlanta. Three uneventful seasons in rookie ball so far.

SP Richard Brecks--71/83 (83/67/83/78) (END/CNT/PWR/MOV for pitchers)--1(9) pick in '39. Made it to AAA this year, was 5-5, 4/94 ERA in 102 IP in AAA.



Well, if these are our top prospects, and we haven't won the division in over a dozen years, I've got some work to do.

[Ben E Lou]

any chance you could sorta play a game out?

i am interested in play as a manager (l/r splits are something i don't understand not having in but i am most likely going to buy it either way)I'm not sure you CAN play a game out as a manager. This is definitely a career, GM-oriented game. I *think* you can watch a game play out, but not manage it. Let me double-check...

[Ben E Lou]

I'm not sure you CAN play a game out as a manager. This is definitely a career, GM-oriented game. I *think* you can watch a game play out, but not manage it. Let me double-check...Just checked. Unless I'm missing something, you can't manage games.

[Ksyrup]

Interesting that you point this out, Ksyrup. Especially in the case of small sample sizes against lefty pitchers you're going to see variances like the ones you listed no matter what. But, I get your point...

Regarding the OOTP lefty/righty code...you'd have to ask Markus himself. I know how the pitcher/batter interaction works at a macro level, but as to how he creates the individual attributes (like lefty/right splits), I'm not sure. I'm not even sure if yearly variances in particular statistics are "created" or if they're purely by chance.
And that's why I'm wondering if this even being in BBM matters. If it's in OOTP, but it really is random or has no continuity or historical relevance, then it's somewhat of a placebo. In playing a game of OOTP, you could make the decision to bring in a lefty to face a lefty in a key situation, but if the result is random, what did that really get you? If it is going to be implemented, I'd expect to be able to approximate sitting on the bench and looking at "the book" on a particular hitter to determine whether he is historically a better or worse hitter (or pitcher, on the flip side) against one side or the other. If that isn't happening, then I guess you can fake it by going through the motions, but it might as well not even be in there.

HOWEVER...in OOTP, at least, I believe the game does take those kinds of substitutions into account when simming games, so at least it's approximating real baseball. I'm assuming BBM wouldn't have that kind of coding in it, regardless of whether L/R splits are in the game. So in terms of looking at PBP and the manner in which pitchers/hitters are used, BBM doesn't take that into account.

Again, like QS mentioned way back, its these little decisions that make the games fun. Part of filling out your roster is having a balanced bullpen, lineup, and bench. That is completely removed from BBM. Hell, some teams rearrange their starting rotation to get certain-handed pitchers in the rotation against certain teams, and lineups are set up L/R/L/R to avoid giving the other team the ability to use a reliever for one than one batter. All of that is missing from BBM - unless you want to play by your own, made-up rules, and completely ignore that it makes no difference.

[Ben E Lou]

Well, without knowing how Clay has written BBM, it's obviously pure speculation on my part...but...

I really don't think it would be too much of an addition as far as the engine itself goes. The ramifications are probably greater in the AI portion of the game. The field management and general management AI code now must look at players in other roles, rather than making decisions based purely on "who is better?". For instance, the field manager would try to gain certain advantages late in the game by utilizing lefty/righty strategies. The general manager would have to look at things like - do I have a lefty bat off the bench? I'm sure the AI looks at some of these things, but in a simplistic manner.

Adding additional complexities like lefty/righty splits would probably force major re-writes of the AI code, but the actual implementation of the impact on the batter/pitcher interaction would be small.Well, "handedness" is already in the game--has been for a few versions now. Right now, it has no impact on performance that I know of (queue ominous Grassy Knoll music), but there's a "bats" and "throws" field for every player in the game--including fictional players.

[CraigSca]

I suspect that to add L/R splits to his game would force Clay to have to re-write from scratch his entire simulation engine as well as make huge modifications to how he tracks data. Such a task would be a major, fundamental overhaul of the game.
Well, without knowing how Clay has written BBM, it's obviously pure speculation on my part...but...

I really don't think it would be too much of an addition as far as the engine itself goes. The ramifications are probably greater in the AI portion of the game. The field management and general management AI code now must look at players in other roles, rather than making decisions based purely on "who is better?". For instance, the field manager would try to gain certain advantages late in the game by utilizing lefty/righty strategies. The general manager would have to look at things like - do I have a lefty bat off the bench? I'm sure the AI looks at some of these things, but in a simplistic manner.

Adding additional complexities like lefty/righty splits would probably force major re-writes of the AI code, but the actual implementation of the impact on the batter/pitcher interaction would be small.

[CraigSca]

And that's why I'm wondering if this even being in BBM matters. If it's in OOTP, but it really is random or has no continuity or historical relevance, then it's somewhat of a placebo. In playing a game of OOTP, you could make the decision to bring in a lefty to face a lefty in a key situation, but if the result is random, what did that really get you? If it is going to be implemented, I'd expect to be able to approximate sitting on the bench and looking at "the book" on a particular hitter to determine whether he is historically a better or worse hitter (or pitcher, on the flip side) against one side or the other. If that isn't happening, then I guess you can fake it by going through the motions, but it might as well not even be in there.
I'm sorry - I may have misunderstood you or vice versa. I wasn't saying the L/R splits in OOTP (or originally in FB) are random at all. What I was trying to say (and Bill James writes an excellent article about this in the latest Baseball Research Journal) is that there's a fog of war in every "average" statistic. Therefore, even if a player is hard-coded to bat .270 in OOTP (.240 vs. righties, 300 vs. lefties), his sample size against lefties (inherently smaller than righties) will automatically create large variances in his yearly output. As the atbats accrue, the batter's statistics will more closely resemble his true value.

Now, when I was saying that some stats could change from year to year - original FB had a slight variance as each year began. Basically, a .270 hitter might actually be hard-coded to hit .280 one year, .275 the next and .260 the following year (not even counting the other attributes like career curve, ballparks, etc). There was a built-in variance that I put in above and beyond the pure randomness of rolling a 1000-sided die 600 times (600 atbats).

Though I did not have the actual split code (or know how Markus put it together) I woukld be SHOCKED if the hard-coded splits were more or less random from year to year.

[CraigSca]

Well, "handedness" is already in the game--has been for a few versions now. Right now, it has no impact on performance that I know of (queue ominous Grassy Knoll music), but there's a "bats" and "throws" field for every player in the game--including fictional players.
Right - it's easy to have "handedness" when it has no impact on any part of the game. It was always fun to put height and weights attached to players in FB, but they didn't do a damn thing either. Eye-candy, really.

[Jeff Olsen]

That is a *stunning* statement. As fast as Mogul plays, you're into an all-fictional league in a flash. If I recall, I would routinely get through 5-10 seasons in one 2-3 hour evening gaming session. That makes the universe all-fictional pretty quickly. Keep in mind that the database importing is a relatively recent addition to the game.Yeah, but it's always been aimed at those who are mainly interested in starting out with the current season, not those mainly interested in fiction.

[henry296]

I know dawgfan was speculating that it would require a code re-write, but as a non programmer, I think it might not be that hard.

Every player has a rating for Power, Contact, etc that feeds into the sim engine to determine the outcome of each at bat. Is it significantly more difficult to have two ratings for each player vs. Right and vs. Left. An if statement could then be used to determine which ratings to plug into the simulation engine. Am I oversimplifying the simulation engines?

I do understand the difficult of assinging the correct splits when importing from Lahman or other databases, put that doesn't have to be perfect in my opinion.

Todd

[Jeff Olsen]

I do understand the difficult of assinging the correct splits when importing from Lahman or other databases, put that doesn't have to be perfect in my opinion.OTOH, Clay is a perfectionist.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, but it's always been aimed at those who are mainly interested in starting out with the current season, not those mainly interested in fiction.
But that makes no sense when the current season only lasts, potentially, 50 seconds, or even 30-60 minutes at most. In a week, a regular player will be reading about Greg Maddux's funeral on his player card. If you play even 20 years, you're nearly 100% into fictional players.

[Dreslough]

I agree with your perception of the situation. I also agree it's never wise to exclusively listen to requests.

However, given that this appears to be the way Clay makes his decisions, I can live with it. But I would also think that when he begins to think about the next BBM version, it would seem Manager Firings/Signings and L/R Splits would be the first two features to be added based on the same feedback decision-making criterion.

Hey guys, we had a BIG poll among our users about which features to add:

http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55470

The top 6 features made the game, along with a few others from lower on the list (like Drag-and-Drop).

Lefty/Righty and Hiring/Firing managers were #8 and #9.

If I had trusted my instincts and knowledge about baseball, I probably wouldn't have added Player Personalities to this year's game. I have yet to see any research showing that happy baseball players perform better.

But the requests for this feature were overwhelming. And now that I have the system working, I find that it's a total blast to try to make trades and shuffle rosters to build the right clubhouse atmosphere. The addition of No Trade Clauses and Player Options creates a game where it matters how happy players are, how much they like their teammates, and how much they want to be on a winning team.

Anyway, despite the poll, I was still tempted to add Lefty-Righty stats along with multiple lineups. I'm a lifelong baseball fan, SABR member for 10 years, and I've been writing baseball games literally since I was 5 years old. I even programmed the four different lineup screens in Tony La Russa Baseball 3.

I chose to leave Lefty/Righty stats out of BB2K6 for a few reasons.

1. THE HASSLE OF SETTING LINEUPS.

2. STAT AVAILABILITY. We license the Lahman Baseball Database and it doesn't have Lefty-Righty stats. This leaves us with a few options. We can pay STATS Inc. $10,000+ for the stats we want (not a realistic option). Or we can assign platoon differentials to each player. These could either be random, or "league average" (e.g. all Lefty hitters in the game would bat 6% better against Righty pitchers, with 11% more power).

I'm not too happy with either of these options. What's the point in recording megabytes of lefty-righty data if it doesn't actually tell you anything useful about the player (for example, by revealing that the player actually has a much larger platoon differential than the average).

With a few exceptions, like the fact that the Lahman Database doesn't have blown saves, the Historical and Simulated stats blend seamlessly into each other in Baseball Mogul. I'd rather you didn't start a game in 1961 only to find that the Scouting Report for Roger Maris has no Historical Lefty-Righty data, and that the Simulated data wasn't based in any way on his real-life performance.

3. DESIGN PHILOSOPHY -- to be an addictive and realistic game that is accessible to EVERYONE. There are 30 million fantasy baseball players in the United States. Between OOTP, Diamond Mind, PureSim and Baseball Mogul, we probably have less than 500,000 customers. Those other 29.5 million fantasy baseball fans SHOULD be buying sims. They certainly spend time and money on their hobby. But it's a lot easier to set your lineups in Yahoo Fantasy Basbeall than in OOTP.

I think you will find with BM2K6 that it creates a totally deep, authentic, baseball world that you cannot pull yourself away from. If I'm wrong, I'm really glad there are other games out there like OOTP that might fit you better.

We were both working at Midway last year, so BM2K5 was only a minor upgrade. BM2K6 on the other hand, is without a doubt the most-improved Baseball Mogul ever. We should have the demo ready this month so I hope you guys at least give it a try.

Thanks!

Clay

[Ben E Lou]

Hey guys, we had a BIG poll among our users about which features to add:

http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55470

The top 6 features made the game, along with a few others from lower on the list (like Drag-and-Drop).

Lefty/Righty and Hiring/Firing managers were #8 and #9.

If I had trusted my instincts and knowledge about baseball, I probably wouldn't have added Player Personalities to this year's game. I have yet to see any research showing that happy baseball players perform better.

But the requests for this feature were overwhelming. And now that I have the system working, I find that it's a total blast to try to make trades and shuffle rosters to build the right clubhouse atmosphere. The addition of No Trade Clauses and Player Options creates a game where it matters how happy players are, how much they like their teammates, and how much they want to be on a winning team.

Anyway, despite the poll, I was still tempted to add Lefty-Righty stats along with multiple lineups. I'm a lifelong baseball fan, SABR member for 10 years, and I've been writing baseball games literally since I was 5 years old. I even programmed the four different lineup screens in Tony La Russa Baseball 3.

I chose to leave Lefty/Righty stats out of BB2K6 for a few reasons.

1. THE HASSLE OF SETTING LINEUPS.

2. STAT AVAILABILITY. We license the Lahman Baseball Database and it doesn't have Lefty-Righty stats. This leaves us with a few options. We can pay STATS Inc. $10,000+ for the stats we want (not a realistic option). Or we can assign platoon differentials to each player. These could either be random, or "league average" (e.g. all Lefty hitters in the game would bat 6% better against Righty pitchers, with 11% more power).

I'm not too happy with either of these options. What's the point in recording megabytes of lefty-righty data if it doesn't actually tell you anything useful about the player (for example, by revealing that the player actually has a much larger platoon differential than the average).

With a few exceptions, like the fact that the Lahman Database doesn't have blown saves, the Historical and Simulated stats blend seamlessly into each other in Baseball Mogul. I'd rather you didn't start a game in 1961 only to find that the Scouting Report for Roger Maris has no Historical Lefty-Righty data, and that the Simulated data wasn't based in any way on his real-life performance.

3. DESIGN PHILOSOPHY -- to be an addictive and realistic game that is accessible to EVERYONE. There are 30 million fantasy baseball players in the United States. Between OOTP, Diamond Mind, PureSim and Baseball Mogul, we probably have less than 500,000 customers. Those other 29.5 million fantasy baseball fans SHOULD be buying sims. They certainly spend time and money on their hobby. But it's a lot easier to set your lineups in Yahoo Fantasy Basbeall than in OOTP.

I think you will find with BM2K6 that it creates a totally deep, authentic, baseball world that you cannot pull yourself away from. If I'm wrong, I'm really glad there other games out there like OOTP that might fit you better.

We were both working at Midway last year, so BM2K5 was only a minor upgrade. BM2K6 on the other hand, is without a doubt the most-improved Baseball Mogul ever. We should have the demo ready this month so I hope you guys at least give it a try.

Thanks!

ClayThanks Clay. Much appreciated!

[Dreslough]

I'm not sure you CAN play a game out as a manager. This is definitely a career, GM-oriented game. I *think* you can watch a game play out, but not manage it. Let me double-check...

You can watch the game, at-bat by at-bat, in the Play-By-Play screen. Just click F10 then play a day and it will go through all the games in slo-mo, or just your team, depending on what you select in the Options Dialog.

Clay

[CraigSca]

Excellent post, Clay.

I have yet to see a baseball game that has a simple, intuitive way to implement and have a player input lefty/righty/no DH/DH lineups.

My thinking is that someone is going to have to think outside the box rather do the straight interpretation that most games use today.

[henry296]

Clay,

Thanks for answer. It is mostly about how to assign the ratings instead of how to resolve the at-bats if you were to add left/right splits..

[Ksyrup]

The demo will be available this month, or week? Isn't the d/l version supposed to be available for purchase in less than 2 weeks?

[SirFozzie]

I'm sorry, Clay, L/R splits/matchups are a pivotal part of the game, and it's ridiculous that this many iterations in, it doesn't seem to matter if a person bats lefty, righty, or swings the bat with the trout in his rectum.

[Swaggs]

If it isn't too expensive, I might give it a try again for the first time in a few years.

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm sorry, Clay, L/R splits/matchups are a pivotal part of the game, and it's ridiculous that this many iterations in, it doesn't seem to matter if a person bats lefty, righty, or swings the bat with the trout in his rectum.


Ditto. Player personalities but no left/right splits. :rolleyes:

[Jeff Olsen]

But that makes no sense when the current season only lasts, potentially, 50 seconds, or even 30-60 minutes at most. In a week, a regular player will be reading about Greg Maddux's funeral on his player card. If you play even 20 years, you're nearly 100% into fictional players.Yes, but unitl BBM 2K4, you weren't able to start with fictional players unless someone created them.

[McSweeny]

when i first read this thread i was all set to buy the game

then all the L/R stuff came up and i was having second thoughts

now that i've seen what Clay had to say on the matter (along with a few others), i'm all set to pick this up. I'm hoping that it'll be very good. The Red Sox play their first game tonight and it's pretty much been baseball 24/7 in my head for the last few weeks (months...)

[Masked]

I'm sorry, Clay, L/R splits/matchups are a pivotal part of the game, and it's ridiculous that this many iterations in, it doesn't seem to matter if a person bats lefty, righty, or swings the bat with the trout in his rectum. I pretty much feel the same way when looking at the game's specs; however, I suspect that once I actually start playing the game, I won't miss L/R splits.

I love OOTP list of features, but I have never been able to get into the game. I also find that I turn off several features because I find them to be a pain (rule 5 draft, etc).

[Ksyrup]

After all is said and done, I'll probably pick it up as well. It certainly appears to be a much more improved version of the game since I last played, and that's all I wanted 5 years ago. I'm happy to support a developer who continues to improve his/her product.

[NevStar]

I'm sorry, Clay, L/R splits/matchups are a pivotal part of the game, and it's ridiculous that this many iterations in, it doesn't seem to matter if a person bats lefty, righty, or swings the bat with the trout in his rectum.

I refuse to buy BM until "Trout Rectum Hitters Introduced in Year:" is in the options screen right under "Women Players Introduced:"

[Jeff Olsen]

2. STAT AVAILABILITY. We license the Lahman Baseball Database and it doesn't have Lefty-Righty stats. This leaves us with a few options. We can pay STATS Inc. $10,000+ for the stats we want (not a realistic option). Or we can assign platoon differentials to each player. These could either be random, or "league average" (e.g. all Lefty hitters in the game would bat 6% better against Righty pitchers, with 11% more power).

I'm not too happy with either of these options. What's the point in recording megabytes of lefty-righty data if it doesn't actually tell you anything useful about the player (for example, by revealing that the player actually has a much larger platoon differential than the average).Exactly as I had suspected.

[SirFozzie]

I refuse to buy BM until "Trout Rectum Hitters Introduced in Year:" is in the options screen right under "Women Players Introduced:"

Night Soil Lover :P :eek:

[SirFozzie]

Exactly as I had suspected.

so because you can't do it 100% accurately for current players, it becomes useless for the hundred or so years down the road that will follow?

Weak.

[Young Drachma]

I say one thing, this thread has put Mogul back on my radar as a game I might check out this year.

[MizzouRah]

when i first read this thread i was all set to buy the game

then all the L/R stuff came up and i was having second thoughts

now that i've seen what Clay had to say on the matter (along with a few others), i'm all set to pick this up. I'm hoping that it'll be very good. The Red Sox play their first game tonight and it's pretty much been baseball 24/7 in my head for the last few weeks (months...)

I'm with you. After Clay's post, this game has definitly peaked my interest... especially since either MVP or MLB 2006 will be taking a long time just to complete one season.

I have baseball fever!


Todd

[Dreslough]

Clay,

Thanks for answer. It is mostly about how to assign the ratings instead of how to resolve the at-bats if you were to add left/right splits..

There's a chance that I'm missing the point, or at least PART of the point, of this whole thread.

Baseball Mogul 2006 DOES have Lefty/Righty matchups. The platoon differential is part of the game and affects the simulation. You can view player handedness in the new Biography page.

Moreover, lefty/righty differentials are recorded for all the stadiums in the game (and are calculated for any stadium you build). So, you are better off adding some lefty sluggers to your lineup if you play in Yankee Stadium. And it's also a good idea to have some lefty starters to keep the opposing lefties in the park.

So, our lefty/righty SIMULATION code is actually quite robust, and as accurate as I could make it with the data we have.

The 2 things we don't have are:

1) Screens to set different lineups

2) Year-by-year lefty/righty stats in the Scouting Report

#1 is a somewhat complicated programming issue, but also a complicated interface issue as we've seen mentioned by others in this thread.

If you want to change your lineup before a World Series game against a lefty starter, you can do that, and it's probably a good idea.

#2 is a bigger programming issue, and also an issue with finding affordable lefty-righty stats.

Given these hurdles, I decided not to display the stats since they wouldn't actually TELL you anything useful about a player (since they all have the same league average platoon differential, because Lahman doesn't include their REAL lefty-righty stats).

Of course, stats aren't just about USEFULNESS. I care whether Barry Bonds hits 800 homers because I DO -- not because it will affect my decision about whether to bat him 3rd or 4th (or 1st!)

Nevertheless, in the case of paying for and/or recording and/or displaying lefty/righty stats in this version, I decided it wasn't worth all the work. But I should clarify that we have implemented platoon differentials into the game, and they do affect strategy.

Clay

[Dreslough]

The demo will be available this month, or week? Isn't the d/l version supposed to be available for purchase in less than 2 weeks?

We actually build the demo AFTER the full game is done, since we just have to add some code that limits it to a single-season.

And I said this month because if I said the actual target date (probably around March 19th), I'd get reamed when we miss it by a few days.

:p

Clay

[Ksyrup]

Clay, thanks for that explanation. I feel somewhat better about this issue than when we started.


If the righty/lefty simulation code is in the game, does the AI recognize it, in both game and lineup situations? In other words, when you suggest we should manually change a lineup before our team faces a lefty pitcher, is that because the AI won't automatically do that (either for us or the computer-controlled teams)? Likewise, for in-game situations - which we can't control anyway - will the AI manager make moves in recognition of the L/R platoon differential - will the AI bring in that lefty to face a key lefty hitter in the late innings?

[Arles]

Clay's post makes a lot of sense. Essentially, it seems lefty-righty matchups do have an effect over time, esp when you look at lefty pitchers and stadiums. But, Clay's decision not to include them on a player by player basis makes even more sense as they may not be indictative of how that player would really perform and could be misleading.

The more I work on games, the more I think this last point is a big one. The worst thing you can do is to have people think something matters on a micro level - to only have it be almost meaningless. I've had run-ins with certain aspects in both TDCB and TPF that did not have the impact I originally thought they would when I designed the game - and ended up being somewhat frustrating for gamers in the released product. So, the fact that Clay has said he's not going to "trick" people by showing lefty and righty matchups on a micro player level when they aren't as significant as the macro level is a credit to him. My guess is that if he did the latter (seems to be his only option without ponying up for the Stats), there would be just as many complaints as there are for the feature not being included. And, given developers have a fixed timeframe, it makes more sense to add in things he has full stats and/or designs for.

Great post, Clay, and I think it really shows some of the pitfalls developers face in this genre.

[DanGarion]

I think I will check out BM2006 for the first time ever. I like what I see.

[Bomber]

How much are stats from these guys?

http://www.baseballinfosolutions.com/

[Ben E Lou]

We actually build the demo AFTER the full game is done, since we just have to add some code that limits it to a single-season.

And I said this month because if I said the actual target date (probably around March 19th), I'd get reamed when we miss it by a few days.

:p

ClayOh come on, Clay. It isn't like you have a reputation for MAKING release dates, anyway. :D

[Ben E Lou]

How much are stats from these guys?

http://www.baseballinfosolutions.com/It looks like $20 per season, with only 2003 and 2004 being available, unless I'm missing something. I had no idea that stats were so expensive.

I have to say it: it is pretty stunning that while Clay would take the time during crunch time before his release to post with such great detail about this issue, and two people still choose to berate him and roll eyes at him. While some may not like his decision, it certainly would appear that he's thought it through pretty thoroughly. Whatever happened to politely agreeing to disagree, and just moving on to another game???

I, for one, appreciate him taking the time to come to a forum he's never frequented before, (one that he KNEW before coming here, by the way, has a number of skeptics about his game) and politely give detailed responses to big questions.

[Ksyrup]

I think the ratio of buyers to non-buyers thanks to this thread and his posts will ultimately be worth it...

[DanGarion]

It looks like $20 per season, with only 2003 and 2004 being available, unless I'm missing something. I had no idea that stats were so expensive.

I have to say it: it is pretty stunning that while Clay would take the time during crunch time before his release to post with such great detail about this issue, and two people still choose to berate him and roll eyes at him. While some may not like his decision, it certainly would appear that he's thought it through pretty thoroughly. Whatever happened to politely agreeing to disagree, and just moving on to another game???

I, for one, appreciate him taking the time to come to a forum he's never frequented before, (one that he KNEW before coming here, by the way, has a number of skeptics about his game) and politely give detailed responses to big questions.
That's one of the things I really like about the FOFC site, a number of developers spend their time checking here and answering questions. This site is sort of a hub for a number of developers and I appreciate any time they spend answering any one of our questions.

[SirFozzie]

#2 is a bigger programming issue, and also an issue with finding affordable lefty-righty stats.

Given these hurdles, I decided not to display the stats since they wouldn't actually TELL you anything useful about a player (since they all have the same league average platoon differential, because Lahman doesn't include their REAL lefty-righty stats).


so Every player's the same differential?

well, that's not as bad.

But it's nowhere near good or acceptable.

[VPI97]

I, for one, appreciate him taking the time to come to a forum he's never frequented before, (one that he KNEW before coming here, by the way, has a number of skeptics about his game) and politely give detailed responses to big questions. Agreed.

[Huckleberry]

There's a chance that I'm missing the point, or at least PART of the point, of this whole thread.

Baseball Mogul 2006 DOES have Lefty/Righty matchups. The platoon differential is part of the game and affects the simulation. You can view player handedness in the new Biography page.

Moreover, lefty/righty differentials are recorded for all the stadiums in the game (and are calculated for any stadium you build). So, you are better off adding some lefty sluggers to your lineup if you play in Yankee Stadium. And it's also a good idea to have some lefty starters to keep the opposing lefties in the park.

So, our lefty/righty SIMULATION code is actually quite robust, and as accurate as I could make it with the data we have.
Holy platoon split, Batman.

Why didn't you say that earlier? I know I'm only one guy on this thread full of complaints, but that's good enough for me on a macro-sim level. I specifically mentioned the effects of roster management being negated by a complete lack of L/R split code.

Quick question which will probably fan the flames:

What about switch-hitters? I take it that at this time someone like Lance Berkman is not accurately modeled. Berkman is a switch-hitter who performs much better from the left side of the plate. In BBM, I assume that he simply hits the same from both sides.

Thanks for all the responses.

[Ben E Lou]

Holy platoon split, Batman.

Why didn't you say that earlier? I know I'm only one guy on this thread full of complaints, but that's good enough for me on a macro-sim level. I specifically mentioned the effects of roster management being negated by a complete lack of L/R split code.

Quick question which will probably fan the flames:

What about switch-hitters? I take it that at this time someone like Lance Berkman is not accurately modeled. Berkman is a switch-hitter who performs much better from the left side of the plate. In BBM, I assume that he simply hits the same from both sides.

Thanks for all the responses.Since Clay's not around now, I'll just comment that I do see fictional switch-hitters in the game. Based on Clay's explanation ("...they all have the same league average platoon differential..."), I think it is safe to assume that switch-hitters before a little better than their ratings from both sides of the plate.

[dawgfan]

There's a chance that I'm missing the point, or at least PART of the point, of this whole thread.

Baseball Mogul 2006 DOES have Lefty/Righty matchups. The platoon differential is part of the game and affects the simulation. You can view player handedness in the new Biography page.

Moreover, lefty/righty differentials are recorded for all the stadiums in the game (and are calculated for any stadium you build). So, you are better off adding some lefty sluggers to your lineup if you play in Yankee Stadium. And it's also a good idea to have some lefty starters to keep the opposing lefties in the park.

So, our lefty/righty SIMULATION code is actually quite robust, and as accurate as I could make it with the data we have.

Great info. A follow-up question for you - there seems to be a growing consensus in the SABR community that platoon differentials are in reality fairly consistent (at least for right-handed hitters) - that if you were to give players enough at-bats in both platoon splits for meaningful data, we'd find that pretty much all right-handed hitters do X amount better against lefty pitchers than righties.

Is this how the platoon differential works in BBM, i.e. righty hitters have a set bonus hitting againsts lefties (subject to random variation of course), etc?

[Huckleberry]

Great info. A follow-up question for you - there seems to be a growing consensus in the SABR community that platoon differentials are in reality fairly consistent (at least for right-handed hitters) - that if you were to give players enough at-bats in both platoon splits for meaningful data, we'd find that pretty much all right-handed hitters do X amount better against lefty pitchers than righties.

Is this how the platoon differential works in BBM, i.e. righty hitters have a set bonus hitting againsts lefties (subject to random variation of course), etc?
I forgot to mention this. The league-average platoon split is fine with me because of this research for a macro-sim purpose.

It's the switch-hitter thing that would still be a minor annoyance.

[Ben E Lou]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this...

Given these hurdles, I decided not to display the stats since they wouldn't actually TELL you anything useful about a player (since they all have the same league average platoon differential, because Lahman doesn't include their REAL lefty-righty stats).
...give a strong indication that it is a league-average split for every player? It sounds like the "tell you anything useful about a player" comment means this:

Just because Joe Schlabotnik hit .342 against lefties in 2035 doesn't mean that he's a better hitter against lefties than Jimmy Johansen, who hit .274 against lefties, because they actually have the exact same (hidden) contact rating and both bat right-handed. It just means that Schlabotnik got lucky this year.

With that being the system, it completely makes sense to me why you DON'T want to display L/R stats: it would encourage gamers to make decisions based on something that actually is meaningless.

[jbmagic]

Skydog makes a good point.

Baseball Mogul 2006, you won't be able to turn off ratings.

if you turn off ratings then i can see how the lefty/righty stats are important to show.

[Ben E Lou]

Skydog makes a good point.

Baseball Mogul 2006, you won't be able to turn off ratings.

if you turn off ratings then i can see how the lefty/righty stats are important to show.No, you're not getting it. Based on what Clay said, whether ratings are on or off, the L/R stats are meaningless. They give you no real information.

[dawgfan]

so Every player's the same differential?

well, that's not as bad.

But it's nowhere near good or acceptable.

OK, ok - we get it. You're not going to buy BBM2K6.

And just for the sake of argument, you do realize that there's a growing consensus that platoon splits are standard, at least for right-handed hitters, and not specific to individual difference?

[SirFozzie]

I do recognize bullshit when I hear it, yes.

[dawgfan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this...

...give a strong indication that it is a league-average split for every player? It sounds like the "tell you anything useful about a player" comment means this:

Just because Joe Schlabotnik hit .342 against lefties in 2035 doesn't mean that he's a better hitter against lefties than Jimmy Johansen, who hit .274 against lefties, because they actually have the exact same (hidden) contact rating and both bat right-handed. It just means that Schlabotnik got lucky this year.

With that being the system, it completely makes sense to me why you DON'T want to display L/R stats: it would encourage gamers to make decisions based on something that actually is meaningless.

I would assume that is correct. And FWIW, this probably isn't far from how it works in reality, once you correct for small sample sizes, based on growing research from the SABR community.

[Huckleberry]

I do recognize bullshit when I hear it, yes.
Curious as to what you're talking about.

dawgfan is correct that it's looking more and more like platoon difference are fairly standard with very few exceptions. The reason they may appear non-standard for many players appears to be sample size moreso than individual differences.

[dawgfan]

I do recognize bullshit when I hear it, yes.

What bullshit are you referring to?

[CraigSca]

I would assume that is correct. And FWIW, this probably isn't far from how it works in reality, once you correct for small sample sizes, based on growing research from the SABR community.
Interestingly, if I interpret him correctly, Bill James' latest paper disagrees with this growing research (that all splits are essentially the same). In fact, in this paper he even says he's not sure, but there may actually be something to clutch performance :eek: as well.

[lynchjm24]

I'm going to buy this game 100% based on this thread.

So, thanks Clay and Skydog.

[dawgfan]

Interestingly, if I interpret him correctly, Bill James' latest paper disagrees with this growing research (that all splits are essentially the same). In fact, in this paper he even says he's not sure, but there may actually be something to clutch performance :eek: as well.

Is this paper available for public consumption? I'd love to read it.

[cougarfreak]

Never played baseball mogul, can you in game "manage" your team, or is it strictly a gm type game?

[Buccaneer]

The historical seasons and expansion still haven't been very well tested, and the rosters could use some feedback.

SD, a simple "no, it hasn't been tested yet" would have sufficed. Forget your manners?

[Galaril]

Never played baseball mogul, can you in game "manage" your team, or is it strictly a gm type game?

I too am gonna pick this up based on on Skydog and Clays Information Thanks. And yes Clay mentioned you can watch a game play out ib the sim one day mode but jsut watch you can't make any decisions in game such as change relievers from the way it sounds. Also, How much is it going to cost? How much was last years game?

[Ben E Lou]

SD, a simple "no, it hasn't been tested yet" would have sufficed. Forget your manners?I had no clue whether or not it had been tested--nor did I care. I'm not a beta tester, per se. I got the beta build just yesterday, to do the preview. There's no way I could know what has and hasn't been tested.

[Buccaneer]

My mistake.

[CraigSca]

Is this paper available for public consumption? I'd love to read it.
If you're a member of SABR, you'll get it for free. I just got their Baseball Research Journal automatically in the mail a couple days ago. Not sure if the article has been reprinted anywhere else.

[randal7]

Just because Joe Schlabotnik hit .342 against lefties
I'm amused that someone else remembers old Joe. You know, I googled him and found out some horse's rear has stolen the name for his own personal profit.

[Swaggs]

I'm amused that someone else remembers old Joe. You know, I googled him and found out some horse's rear has stolen the name for his own personal profit.

He was Charlie Brown (of Peanuts) favorite player. I believe that is why he has a semi-following.

[randal7]

He was Charlie Brown (of Peanuts) favorite player. I believe that is why he has a semi-following.
I know. (I'm a big Charlie Brown fan from way back.) The afore-mentioned horse's rear apparently does sportscasting under that name.

[Eaglesfan27]

I think the ratio of buyers to non-buyers thanks to this thread and his posts will ultimately be worth it...
I agree. This thread (and Clay's responses in particular) have GREATLY improved my chances of buying this game.

[stevew]

Now im convinced to buy it just to Piss Fozzie off.

[Ragone]

Personality types...



coy
self-conscious but humble
self-conscious
egotistical and media-friendly
boastful
modest but media-friendly
private
humble but outgoing
violent and silly
aloof
charistmatic and peaceful
media-friendly but gregarious
down-to-earth but sincere
media-friendly
egotistical
peaceful but generous
humble but gregarious
introverted and practical
charismatic but outgoing
aggressive
coy
friendly and peaceful
modest but friendly
silly
fan-friendly but gregarious
media-friendly and charitable
modest and fan-friendly
20+ characteristics, but some can be double up for literally hundreds of combinations. I have NO clue how they work yet, though.


But i don't see cocky and funny on this list..

[Ben E Lou]

Missed this....

Basic HTML reports are available:

<center>2031 Braves Batting

</center>

2031 Batting Team G AVG AB H 2B 3B HR BB K SB CS R RBI SLG OBP
Tolentino, Albert ATL 139 .289 608 176 19 4 9 43 72 16 6 96 56 .378 .334
Leavitt, Wes ATL 148 .239 595 142 19 8 10 44 105 16 3 70 64 .348 .297
Russell, Morten ATL 144 .269 588 158 38 10 12 70 74 27 7 90 68 .429 .346
Manzo, Josh ATL 139 .265 532 141 32 0 23 81 110 3 0 82 109 .455 .370
Antillon, Daveed ATL 111 .254 488 124 26 9 2 41 81 21 5 71 27 .357 .311
Balleza, Tim ATL 153 .279 462 129 29 0 25 52 96 2 0 66 101 .504 .352
Radman, Sean ATL 95 .272 360 98 9 0 6 20 59 3 0 30 48 .347 .313
Peahl, Joel ATL 101 .182 358 65 8 0 13 64 117 1 0 45 41 .313 .308
Lacerda, Luis ATL 136 .269 338 91 21 2 4 20 26 2 0 22 41 .379 .314
Sullivan, Mark ATL 134 .217 300 65 11 0 5 58 62 0 1 35 30 .303 .353
Stevens, Steve ATL 106 .207 266 55 6 0 0 33 58 0 0 20 22 .229 .302
Wise, Kevin ATL 60 .305 233 71 6 3 15 43 30 3 1 46 44 .549 .418
Thompson, Greg ATL 85 .179 201 36 13 1 3 34 59 2 3 27 19 .299 .303
Ortega, Armando ATL 29 .169 71 12 1 0 0 2 30 0 0 1 5 .183 .203
Vigneault, Cliff ATL 33 .092 65 6 0 0 0 2 22 0 0 0 0 .092 .119
McCreery, Richard ATL 27 .190 63 12 2 0 0 5 14 0 0 5 4 .222 .250
Berkemeier, Keith ATL 24 .054 56 3 0 0 0 1 22 0 0 1 3 .054 .068
Wayrynen, Bradley ATL 41 .178 45 8 2 0 0 0 4 3 0 14 3 .222 .174
Lopez, Tim ATL 13 .152 33 5 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 2 2 .152 .176
Rivera, Aurelio ATL 7 .077 26 2 0 0 0 1 9 0 0 1 1 .077 .111
Murphy, Brian ATL 14 .240 25 6 0 0 0 1 8 0 0 2 2 .240 .259
Pinero, Miguel ATL 3 .100 10 1 0 0 0 0 7 0 0 0 0 .100 .100
Evans, Reagan ATL 1 .143 7 1 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 .143 .143
Kamatani, Hiroshi ATL 2 .000 6 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 .000 .000
</pre>

<center> [ This file created by Baseball Mogul (http://www.baseballmogul.com/) ]

</center>

[Ben E Lou]

031 Braves Pitching



2031 Pitching Team IP ERA G GS W L SV K BB R/9
Vigneault, Cliff ATL 215.1 4.81 36 34 10 15 1 177 91 13.67
Ortega, Armando ATL 213.2 3.71 30 30 12 7 0 140 63 12.22
McCreery, Richard ATL 193.1 3.86 28 28 10 8 0 136 55 12.10
Berkemeier, Keith ATL 165.2 4.89 25 25 8 11 0 102 42 13.64
Rivera, Aurelio ATL 129.0 3.98 55 7 4 7 3 85 53 14.23
Lopez, Tim ATL 124.1 3.76 37 14 7 6 0 100 36 12.38
Pinero, Miguel ATL 107.2 6.02 68 5 4 8 2 48 35 12.71
Evans, Reagan ATL 96.2 7.45 84 1 3 15 19 97 54 16.29
Murphy, Brian ATL 84.1 5.44 15 15 5 7 0 45 28 14.09
Kamatani, Hiroshi ATL 69.2 5.04 48 2 4 6 2 48 31 15.63
Esona, Ian ATL 69.1 4.28 62 2 3 3 2 55 29 12.85

</pre>

[Ben E Lou]

Stats export format options...

http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/fofc/statsexport.jpg

[Ben E Lou]

Just saw my second player who "wants to live somewhere warmer" than Atlanta. The only other team he's played for? Arizona. I guess so far, so good with that message. One Marlin and one Diamondback. Heh.

[Ragone]

Just saw my second player who "wants to live somewhere warmer" than Atlanta. The only other team he's played for? Arizona. I guess so far, so good with that message. One Marlin and one Diamondback. Heh.


I'd be willing to bet at some point you are gonna catch that one in a screwup... and why does he have to live in atlanta anyway to play there

Like anyone would wanna live there ;)

[Ben E Lou]

Good point about not living there to play there.

Now, HERE's something that looks cool/potentially-controversial. I have a relief pitcher named Miguel Pinero. His friends?

Jose Ramos
Tavo Bajtera
Mario Ramirez
Albert Galdareres
Enrique Duce

[Ragone]

Good point about not living there to play there.

Now, HERE's something that looks cool/potentially-controversial. I have a relief pitcher named Miguel Pinero. His friends?

Jose Ramos
Tavo Bajtera
Mario Ramirez
Albert Galdareres
Enrique Duce

I mean i'd understand if he said he didn't wanna play in a cold weather area.. but what about domes?

and as far as the other point, maybe if you could factor in languages like the football manager series does.. that would be a more plausible aspect

[Ben E Lou]

Oh yeah. Definitely cultural linkage....I must say that's pretty danged cool in terms of "immersion factor" with fictional players. Hiro Nakai has four friends...

Jussai Kenmotsu
Watamaro Takahashi
Ken Kurumadaa
Luke Anthony

I wonder what the connection is between Hiro and Luke. While the others all list Japanese home towns, Luke was born in San Diego.

[Ragone]

Maybe Luke played in japan at some point? just a guess really..


I wonder what jose canseco's friend list would look like at this point

[Ben E Lou]

I mean i'd understand if he said he didn't wanna play in a cold weather area.. but what about domes?Well, I haven't fooled with a Dome team yet, but a good point. I must admit that even in Atlanta, I've been to some downright-chilly night games as late as late-May, and as early as mid-September.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it and there's just a random factor, but Anthony and Nakai are the same age, and one attended Southern Cal, while the other was at Long Beach St.

[Ben E Lou]

Players from the same home town are often friends, I'm noticing.

[Ben E Lou]

New (I think) Chemistry message during free agency. "Sullivan is lonely. He'd rather be playing for the Yankees." (Yes, he has a friend in pinstripes.)

Just noticed something cool about contract negotiations. When you submit an offer that is in the same ballpark as the player's demand, he comes back with a counter-offer that is lower than his original demand. For example, a RP wanted $1.83M. I offered $1.5M. He came back with $1.65M. This is a first for me to actually feel like I'm negotiating with the player, with honest-to-goodness feedback and counter-offers. Still trying to bang away at it to make sure you can't fleece it, but the way it works in principle looks VERY, VERY, VERY nice!

[Ben E Lou]

OK. A full contract extension saga (at year-end):

SP Tim Lopez originally wants 4years, $3.96M per year.

OFFER: $3.2M, 3 years
RESPONSE: "That's close. Give us a tad more to work with.
HIS COUNTEROFFER: $3.34M, 4 years

MY OFFER: $3.0M, 3 years (testing the code out a little here)
RESPONSE: "We really need you to work with us to close this deal."
HIS COUNTEROFFER: $3.2M, 4 years, plus player option for 2 yrs @ $3.15M

MY OFFER: $3.2M, 3 years
RESPONSE: "If you give us a little bit more I think we can close this deal."
HIS COUNTEROFFER: $3.35M, 4 years, plus player option for 1yr @ $3.3M (Guess I pissed him off by lowballing and coming back with the same offer. Good.)

MY OFFER: $3.4M, 3 years
RESPONSE: "We need a little more to make this deal work."
HIS COUNTEROFFER: $3.6M, 4 years, plus player option for 1yr, $3.6M, plus no-trade clause (Guess I'd better offer this guy 4 years, huh?)

MY OFFER: $3.45M, 4 years
RESPONSE: "You'll have to put more on the table before we agree to that."
HIS COUNTEROFFER: $3.55M, 4 years, plus player option for 1 year, $3.55M (Got closer to his offer, and he was willing to compromise. I might need my Kleenex here in a minute...)

MY OFFER: $3.5M, 4 years
RESPONSE: "It was good working with you." {Agrees to deal}

[Ragone]

Where is the Scott Boras first round draft pick negotiations ai?

My Offer: $80 million over 4 years
Boras Response: Your kidding right?

My Offer: $100 million over 4 years
Boras Response: Did i mention i hate small market teams?

[Ben E Lou]

There's a new rating for Catchers: "Handling." Undocumented so far, but I'm assuming it impacts how well they handle pitchers. It replaces the "Range" rating for that position. Good move.

[Ben E Lou]

Where is the Scott Boras first round draft pick negotiations ai?

My Offer: $80 million over 4 years
Boras Response: Your kidding right?

My Offer: $100 million over 4 years
Boras Response: Did i mention i hate small market teams?:D

[Ben E Lou]

Felt the need to say this....


Keep in mind that because the game is still in beta, there are still some bugs and issues around. I don't think it would be fair of me to report every single bug and issue in a public preview, so I haven't done that. In doing that, however, my concern would be that I would give y'all the (false) impression that everything is rose-colored and that there are no issues at this point. If there were no issues at this point, the game would be released, not in beta. There are some problems out there that I'd consider major (like the aforementioned league age issue, for example. That still annoys me to *NO* end with OOTP, and it does right now with Mogul.) There are also still some minor things out there--things on the level of the Braves-listed-in-the-AL-East thing that y'all saw in a screen shot. As far as stability, I've run the game on three different machines (all with XP) and have yet to experience any crashes or lockups of any kind.

Back in the days before Clay was working for another company as well as his own, I used to refer to him as "patch-a-day-Clay." At that time, his game support was TOP-notch, probably even better than Jim's or Brian's (HeavyReign)--the two I'd consider the best at it right now. Hopefully, now that Mogul is his main focus once again, Clay will return to his days of excellent customer service. From what I saw back then, I'd agree with the person who said he is a perfectionist when it comes to his games.

At this point, I'd still refer y'all to this post I made earlier in this thread:

Well, at this point I would say that it has enough new features to be a really fun game and a nice upgrade from the past, provided the answers to these two burning questions are satisfactory:

1. How well do the new features work? Will I really have to pay significantly more money to sign a guy when a team with one of his friends is also pursuing him? Will it cost more to sign a guy who thinks my organization is heading in the wrong direction? Do team and player options make a difference on contracts? Do call-ups/demtions in the expanded minor leagues work well?

2. How buggy will it be on release? As always, I really hope Clay holds it until the obvious bugs are squashed. I've yet to run into anything monumental like a crash bug, but there are still some bugs present.

There are (so far) three "Things I Know For Sure" about this version:

1. The two hallmarks of the Mogul franchise are still there: outstanding interface and oustanding sim speed. This version still blows everything else away in these two areas.
2. *Much* more attention has been paid to the customer base. A survey was taken on their web site (posted earlier in this thread) of what were the top new features desired, and they implemented all of the Top 6.
3. This isn't a tiny upgrade to the last version--which was one of the primary complaints about the Mogul franchise in the past several years.As far as question #1 goes, so far contract negotiations seem to work pretty well, and it would appear that friendships have at least some logical basis (home towns, cultural). I haven't looked with my most fine-toothed comb at anything yet, though. ;)

[Ksyrup]

New (I think) Chemistry message during free agency. "Sullivan is lonely. He'd rather be playing for the Yankees." (Yes, he has a friend in pinstripes.)

Does Sulivan enjoy shooting steroids into another's buttocks? Just wondering who his friend in NY could be...

Oh, and hell of a closer Atlanta 2031 had. :eek:

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and hell of a closer Atlanta 2031 had. :eek:Heh. Guess that one is worth explaining...

A new build came out last night. I quicksimmed up to 2030--letting the computer control all teams. However, I fast-simmed right through that offseason, but the team was no longer under AI control at that point, so guys weren't resigned, nor were any new FA's signed. I got to the beginning of 2031, and noticed the HTML export option at that point when doing something else, actually, so I decided to just sim on through 2031 to get some stats to report. Point being this: I'm guessing that the closer from past seasons, as well as whatever decent bullpen pitchers were around were part of the contingent of guys who left as FA's after 2030. The relevant part of the '31 closer's scouting report says: "Evans could come in during a blow-out. Other than that, he doesn't have a role at the major league level." Yeah, no kidding.

[Ksyrup]

OK, that makes me feel better about (a) the AI's free agent signing process; and (b) the AI's roster management. If the human controlled the team during free agency and the AI had no one better to put in there during the season, then this doesn't bother me all that much.

[bryce]

Wow.. I also was in the camp of those who had given up completely on Mogul years ago, but this thread is certainly making me reconsider my ban. I'll at least pay attention to the patches/releases now and go from there. That seems to be the problem in years past - support just fell off completely a month after the release. If it gets patched with the effectiveness of FOF, then we might be getting somewhere...

[MizzouRah]

You know, it's a great niche Clay had going on with BB Mogul and it looks like he's bringing back into the mainstream.

If progress keeps up like it is and the replay factor is there, this might be my text baseball sim of choice this year.

Wow, first MVP and now BB Mogul? What is going on??

Todd

[Bee]

Thanks for the preview SkyDog and especially for all the screenshots.

I would never have considered buying this game if I hadn't read this thread, but now I'll pick it up when it comes out. Even though there's a couple features missing that I'd like to see in the game, it looks like it's enjoyable and will probably be worth the time invested.

B

[jbmagic]

Skydog


how is the Trade AI?

[Ben E Lou]

Skydog


how is the Trade AI?In past years, it was strong, as long as you didn't try to trade like 7 players to get one (easily dealt with by a simple house rule that many used: no trades with differential of more than 2 players--1 for 3 or 3 for 5 is fine, 1 for 4 is not). l haven't really checked it yet with this version, but I also don't think he's changed it much, if at all (which is probably good).

[Ksyrup]

That was one of the very good features of the game, even way back when (again, as SD mentioned, within parameters). I especially liked the trade offer feature (put a guy up, pick the team, and see what they'll give you for him), which I don't believe anyone had back in 2000.

[Ben E Lou]

Do small market teams continue to allow you to trade them your contract year superstars for their best prospects? This was a huge problem in the last version.I'll try doing that at midseason.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Do small market teams continue to allow you to trade them your contract year superstars for their best prospects? This was a huge problem in the last version.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Also are the salary demands realistic for top/mid/and low level talent? Everything was horribly inflated in the last version good players would ask for 20 million dollars and bench players would ask for 5.

[Ben E Lou]

Clay specifically asked for feedback on whether the feedback (e.g. personalities and rumors) makes sense. (Quite frankly, just the fact that he asked that question gets me excited. It indicates to me that he isn't going to be happy with it just being eye candy, but actually meaningful.) He also wanted to check into how well expansion is working in historical seasons. Figured I'd kill three birds with one stone (preview/renegotiation/expansion) by starting in 1960, quick-simming that year, and then doing renegotiatoins/expansion.

SITUATION
Philadelphia went 73-81 in 1960, good for 5th place in the 8-team NL. They were 20 games behind 1st-place Los Angeles. I intentionally bumped up scouting/farm/medical expenses, partly because of playing in a big market, and partly because I wanted highly accurate scouting reports when testing renegotiation.

Farm System: A+
Fan Loyalty: C+
Scouting: A+ (+/- 0)
Medical Staff: A+


RENEGOTIATION
First is LF Harry Anderson. He hit .290-27-96, is 28 years old, has downturned (sad) face, and the rumor surrounding him is that "Anderson wants to join a team that can win the World Series." He batted third. He has no friends on the Phils, but one in LA, and one in Detroit. He was an All-Star this year, but not a starter. His ratings are 77 con, 90 pow, 52spd, 71 eye, and he's an above average fielder, with 96 health. His personality is "self-centered." He only made $316K this year. Overall rating is 84.

INITIAL REQUEST: 4 years, $6.93M per year

WE OFFER: 4 years, $4.0M per year, team option of 1 year, $5M (Let's see what happens if I lowball him significantly.)
RESPONSE: You'll have to give us more than that to make this deal happen.
COUNTER-OFFER: 4 years, $5.15M per year, player option of 3 years, $5.1M
RUMOR: Same.

WE OFFER: 3 years, $4.25M per year, team option of 1 year, $5.25M
RESPONSE: We need some compromise on both sides if we're going to get this deal done.
COUNTER-OFFER: He doesn't budge. Exact same.

WE OFFER: 1 year, $5.5M per year. (What the heck? Worth a shot...)
RESPONSE: We really need you to work with us to close this deal.
COUNTER-OFFER: 4 years, $5.8M per year, player option of 1 year, $5.75M (Clearly there's some sort of "insult" code built in that makes him increase his offer if you get too far from what he asked for.)
RUMOR: Same

WE OFFER: 4 years, $4.0M per year, team option of 1 year, $5M (Let's see what happens if I go back to my very first offer at this point...)
RESPONSE: I sense you're losing enthusiasm for this deal.
COUNTER-OFFER: 4 years, $5.35M per year, player option of 3 years, $5.3M (He comes down some, but not as much as he did originally when I made that offer. I've clearly ticked him off.)
RUMOR: Same

WE OFFER: 3 years, $4.75M per year. Team option of 1 year, $5M (Upped my offer a decent bit, but made it shorter time amount.)
RESPONSE: We know you can do better than that.
COUNTER-OFFER: 4 years, $5.6M, player option of 3 years, $5.55M (Looks like I'd better give him some money, or I'm gonna lose him.
RUMOR: Same rumor, but his frown gets deeper.

WE OFFER: 4 years, $5.25M per year. Team option of 1 year, $5M
RESPONSE: I don't think that's your best offer.
COUNTER-OFFER: 4 years, $6.05M, player option of 3 years, $6.05M (This guy is getting sick of me, huh?)
RUMOR: I don't think Harry Anderson is going to re-sign with the Phillies.

WE OFFER: 4 years, $5.75M per year. Team option of 2 years, $6M
RESPONSE: I sense you're losing enthusiasm for this deal.
COUNTER-OFFER: 4 years, $6.3M, player option of 3 years, $6.3M
RUMMOR: He face gets more angry. Same wording as last time.

WE OFFER: "Accept Player Demands"

He signs.

Next on in next post. (This got long.)

[Ben E Lou]

OK. Next up is SP Don Cardwell. He's a 24-year-old 4th-year player. Carwell was 12-14 with a 4.52 ERA this year. He is rated 81 overall, 93 peak. (Good test here of whether or not I can lock up a good prospect who hasn't come into his own yet to a long-term deal at less than his value.) he made $316K this year, has friends on four different teams (but none on the Phillies) and has a "media-friendly" personality.

INITIAL REQUEST: 3 years, $5.065M per year. Rumor is "If you don't meet Don's demands, it's unlikely you'll sign him."

WE OFFER: 7 years, $4.25M per year...team option of 3 years, $5M. (Not much more than he wants per year, but it would tie up a very good prospect for the majority of his career.)
RESPONSE: We're getting there, but we don't quite have a deal.
COUNTER-OFFER: 7 years, $4.45M per year....team option of 1 year, $5.2M, player option of 1 year, $4.4M
RUMOR: If you don't meet Don's demands, it's unlikely you'll sign him.

WE OFFER: 7yrs/$4.5M...team option 3yrs/$5.0M
RESPONSE: We need a bit more to make the numbers work.
COUNTER-OFFER: 7yrs/$4.6M...team option 2 year/$5.1M...player optoin 2 years/$4.55M
RUMOR: Same...

WE OFFER: 7yrs/$4.7M...team optoin 3yrs/$5.2M
RESPONSE: We need a little more meony to close this deal.
COUNTER-OFFER: 7yrs/$4.8M, player option 1 year, $4.8M
RUMOR: Same...

WE OFFER: 7yrs/$4.75M...team option 3yrs/$5.4M
RESPONSE: Just a little more should clinch it.
COUNTER-OFFER: 7yrs/$4.8M...team option 2 years/$5.95M...player option 1 year/$4.8M
RUMOR: Don Cardwell would very much like to stay with the Phillies. (Guess I'm making him happy.)

WE OFFER: 7yrs/$5M...team option 3yrs/$5.2M
RESPONSE: We need some compromise on both sides if we're going to get this deal done.
COUNTER-OFFER: 7yrs/$5M...team option 3 years/$5.3M...player option 1 year/$5.0M
RUMOR: same

I accept that demand. I'm curious what y'all think of this deal. I've got potentially one of the best pitchers around for up to 10 years, at a moderate salary level. However, he hasn't done anything much yet, and could still bust.

Thoughts???

[cubboyroy1826]

I kinda like it. The kid is taking a guaranteed instead of going short term and having a chance that he will flop and never get a big contract. The next step to things would be if down the road he is really good and asks to renegotiate. This is where the player personalities could come more into play. When Scottie Pippen signed his long term contract Reinsdorf warned him not to sign it but Scottie wanted the security. As time went on Pipp demanded a new contract but never got one.

I really like what i am seeing so far from BM2006 and will definitely be investing in it when it is released.

[CraigSca]

I guess the question is - will he really bust? You're paying through the wazoo for scouting, so the ratings are +- 0. Is that therefore an accurate measure of his future value (the 93 peak number)?

If these guys always pan out, then it'll be easy to offer ALL these good prospects long term deals and just repeat the process every 4-5 years with a new batch of youngsters.

[henry296]

Skydog,

What are the demands that a 27 year old pitcher with current ratings in the mid to upper 80s. Assuming he develops that would be his situation after the contract he initially demanded expired.

A question. How does it work with a player and owner option. What comes first?

TOdd

[Ben E Lou]

I kinda like it. The kid is taking a guaranteed instead of going short term and having a chance that he will flop and never get a big contract. The next step to things would be if down the road he is really good and asks to renegotiate. This is where the player personalities could come more into play. When Scottie Pippen signed his long term contract Reinsdorf warned him not to sign it but Scottie wanted the security. As time went on Pipp demanded a new contract but never got one.

I really like what i am seeing so far from BM2006 and will definitely be investing in it when it is released.Well, if holdouts and/or renegotiation demands (with accompanying clubhouse strife if the demand is not met) were a part of this game, there would be no reason whatsoever to question this contract. After all, he *did* end up getting a little more per year than he demanded in the first place.

[Ben E Lou]

I guess the question is - will he really bust? You're paying through the wazoo for scouting, so the ratings are +- 0. Is that therefore an accurate measure of his future value (the 93 peak number)?

If these guys always pan out, then it'll be easy to offer ALL these good prospects long term deals and just repeat the process every 4-5 years with a new batch of youngsters.Not if you play with a small-to-medium market team. In fooling around with Atlanta some last night, I had to make give-and-take decisions regarding scouting, minor league development, medical expenditures, and signing FA's. If I wanted outstanding scouting, I had to sacrifice medical/farm system/re-signing free agents. In past versions (and I perceive in this one as well), there's a pretty huge difference between playing with Philly/NY/LA and playing with small market clubs.

[Icy]

What woul dbe great is that some guys would be more agressive or conservative, so some would preffer long term contracts while some will preffer short ones as they have the feeling that they could be big stars (of course they can be right or wrong).

[CraigSca]

Not if you play with a small-to-medium market team. In fooling around with Atlanta some last night, I had to make give-and-take decisions regarding scouting, minor league development, medical expenditures, and signing FA's. If I wanted outstanding scouting, I had to sacrifice medical/farm system/re-signing free agents. In past versions (and I perceive in this one as well), there's a pretty huge difference between playing with Philly/NY/LA and playing with small market clubs.
Even so...I guess my beef is that scouting is in RL much less precise. You could throw billions of dollars into a ballclub's scouting department, but you still would not know every boom and bust in the sport. I would prefer the max scouting still have room for error, rather than guaranteeing a dead-on observation 100% of the time.

I understand the market size being an issue with the amount of money one can devote to particular parts of the team - but there's no way ANY team can make scouting "speculation-free".

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

I think theres a problem if big market teams somehow can with 100% accuracy scout all players. Even though the Yankees or Dodgers can have A+ scouting that shouldnt mean, especially with prospects they can scout with no variance.

[Ben E Lou]

Skydog,

What are the demands that a 27 year old pitcher with current ratings in the mid to upper 80s. Assuming he develops that would be his situation after the contract he initially demanded expired.I'll check that...

A question. How does it work with a player and owner option. What comes first?

TOddPosted pretty much that exact question to Clay in the beta board just a few moments ago. It isn't mentioned (yet?) in the help file. (The help file is still being worked on, I know for certain, so it might be in there eventually.) Here's the current player negotiation help....



<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody> <tr> <td>CONTRACT NEGOTIATION

This dialog box lets you negotiate:



a contract with a Free Agent OR
a contract extension with one of your current players
Contract Negotiation takes the form of setting the contract parameters and clicking 'Submit Offer'. (The player's current demands are shown on the right side of the screen).

If the player turns down your offer, the player will usually adjust their demands. So, always check the player's side of the negotiation to see what terms he wants in the deal.

Younger players will generally want a higher salary for longer contracts, while older players will be willing to accept a lower salary in exchange for a longer commitment.

<table align="center" border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="80%"> <tbody> <tr bgcolor="#ccccff"> <td width="10%">Button</td> <td width="90%">Function</td></tr> <tr> <td width="10%">Scouting</td> <td width="90%">Open a Scouting Report for the player.</td></tr> <tr> <td>Submit Offer</td> <td>Submit your contract offer (as defined by the terms on the left side of the dialog box).</td></tr> <tr> <td width="10%">Accept Player Demands </td> <td width="90%">Accept the player's currently displayed contract (the terms displayed in the right side of the dialog box).</td></tr> <tr> <td width="10%">Leave Negotiating Table </td> <td width="90%">Decline the currently displayed contract and close the dialog box. This does not release a player -- it simply ceases negotiations until later.</td></tr> <tr> <td width="10%">Release Player </td> <td width="90%">Decline the contract and release the player from your team.</td></tr></tbody></table> Player Personalities and Negotiations

Negotiating a contract with a player can be a tricky proposition. You don't want to pay too much, but if you offer too little you can alienate the player you are talking with.

A player's mood is indicated by the "happy face" next to the word "Rumors" in the Contract Negotiation screen (this icon can also be seen in the upper right section of the Scouting Report). Happy players will generally sign contract extensions for their current team for someone less than their market price.

Accepting a player's demands is generally the easiest way to improve the player's mood, but you might end up paying more than you needed to. Submitting an offer that the player rejects may worsen his mood (and increase his asking price). Players with pesonality descriptions such as "egotistical", "boastful", or "self-centered" will be the most offended by low contract offers.

<!-- #EndEditable --></td> <td width="2%"> </td></tr> <tr> <td width="2%"> </td> <td> </td></tr></tbody> </table>

[jbmagic]

can someone explain what is team option and player option?



IF scouting is 100% accurate, i hope the game is not easy for playing with big market ballclubs. because it will be easy to spend the most on scouts.

i hoping there some errors still or bust, etc

i hope game is challenging if playing with a big market ballclub.

[Ben E Lou]

I would prefer the max scouting still have room for error, rather than guaranteeing a dead-on observation 100% of the time..Ah. I follow you there. It would be nice if the current estimate can be pretty much 100% accurate, but the future potential has some variance. That being said, to some degree, it might: player development is definitely variable, and spending on the minor league system impacts it as well.

As we've discussed before, there's no perfect way to model real-life scouting in a text sim. My hope is that the system will have a good combination of challenge and realism, with enough predictability to make it feel like my decisions matter, but with enough unpredictability to keep it challenging. I'm definitely not a programmer, but even I can that it is probably a pretty tall order to achieve that balance. :p What I like about the Mogul system is that it allows for resource-management decisions that tug against one another. Ultimately, within the Mogul system, the trick is probably playing with a team that has the right financial situation for the gamer's taste. Me? I've realized that I prefer my scouts to be pretty much 100% accurate with veterans, so I can focus on GM decisions rather than player evaluation with them, but have my youngsters have the ability to vary from their projection--either because of scout error, or because of difficulty in developing due to other factors (coordinators in TCY/FOF...spending on minors in Mogul...etc..)

[Ben E Lou]

i hope game is challenging if playing with a big market ballclub.Based on my past experience with Mogul, I basically hope it isn't for me. That may sound strange initially, but my reason is quite simple: the variance between a big market team and a small market team is HUGE in Mogul (kinda like real life...) If a big market team is a challenge, then it would follow that it would be virtually impossible to run a small market team. I'd rather have the option of "learning the game" on a medium-large to large market team, and then really go hardcore by playing with a smaller-market team when it is time to get serious.