Why would one NOT use trading blocks?, Pt. I

[Celeval]

If I think I'm getting a steal and don't want someone else jumping in and outbidding me.

[jeronemitchell]

Hello all,

A while back, in a thread on horrible MP trades, I mentioned that SFL requires you to post "trade rumors" of anyone you'd want to trade to simulate how a team would advertise a player in real life. These rumors tend to only advertise the centerpieces of trades; the requirement is that at least one guy from one side is advertised. This way, if I wanted to trade, say, Peyton Manning, I know I'm getting maximum market value.
One of the reactions (admittedly, one in which the person thought EVERYONE in the trade must have been advertised) was that it was overkill. It got me thinking, around 4 in the morning in between begging God to let my one-year-old go back to sleep, why would one NOT want to advertise everything except for collusive purposes? Even if there was a specific guy you wanted, you'll never know if someone else would offer a guy with the same appeal but better stats/ less money / whatever. I managed to think of only one reason that one might not do so - trying to slip a trade in under the deadline. Beyond that, though...
Anyway... thoughts?

[jeronemitchell]

Heh. Okay... I'll rephrase. :D From the perspective of the person losing the player, why would one not want to advertise it?

[Celeval]

:-D

Well, there are times that both teams think they are getting a steal. There's also a question of timing - not just deadline. If you want a player by this week's game come hell or high water. If you are planning on swooping in to steal a free agent replacement and you don't want the team currently bidding on said replacement to know there is competition. If you're working on another deal, and that owner's knowing the first deal is possibly happening might change the parameters of the second.

[gottimd]

The only reason I could think of not advertising is maybe by saying in this instance, you have noted Manning. I assume you would put what you are looking for on the block. By notifying the league as to what positions you are looking for in return, it lets other GM's know where your weaknesses are as a team.

[Joe]

I don't know, for me it sucks the fun out. I don't want the league acting like a babysitter, and holding up the trading process. Maybe its good for newbie owners so wig doesnt rape them, but on the whole its unneeded imo. Maybe it would help some people in getting the "best" players, but if you know FOF at all, its not about having the best players. You need the right ones for your team. And there are circumstances that I may not be interested in trading a stud of mine, but if the right deal comes along, I'll pull the trigger. Now, that player isn't necessarily on the market, but if something happens to come along, I'd do it.

[jeronemitchell]

:-D

Well, there are times that both teams think they are getting a steal. There's also a question of timing - not just deadline. If you want a player by this week's game come hell or high water. If you are planning on swooping in to steal a free agent replacement and you don't want the team currently bidding on said replacement to know there is competition. If you're working on another deal, and that owner's knowing the first deal is possibly happening might change the parameters of the second.

Ummm... are those four different scenarios, or one really complicated one?

Looking at the first sentence, unless all negotiations are private, even if I know I have a steal, I'm not hurting myself with the initial advertisement. I either get the steal from the initial ad, turning down other less-stellar offers, or I get a more stellar offer. Either way, by advertising the player I did, I win. The only way this comes back to bite me is if I'm trading for ANOTHER guy that is advertised, and someone else swoops HIM up... which sucks for me, but is great for the other team, and that is the perspective I'm working from.

Again... we want to MAXIMIZE what we do for our team.

I hadn't thought about needing someone for a specific game... that's a pretty good reason to want to expedite things.

[Celeval]

Different scenarios, just thoughts on paper.

Let's look at the Washington-Denver trade last year, since it was two high-profile players and pretty straightforward. That was a deal where people were divided - there were those who said they'd give more for Portis and those who said they'd give more for Champ.

Say I have Champ Bailey. I know he has value, but I've lost some of the luster. I like Portis an awful lot, and work out a quiet deal to make the swap. What happens if I advertise?

- I might get more offers for Bailey. True. And maybe I'll get offered a Ladanian Tomlinson, but then again I might not.
- Feelers all of a sudden go out around the league for who I'm dealing Bailey for. Let's say the Cardinals are looking for a RB and hear the Portis is up for Bailey. All of a sudden I've got competition for a guy... and they might offer more than I am.
- Reaction to the deal. A trade is based almost entirely on perceived value. Putting someone on the open market /usually/ helps his perceived value... but oft-times, good GM/traders are in the business of creating value for their players.. if a Bailey goes on the market and sparks a "aw, he ain't worth a first round pick" discussion, then that perceived value goes down and I may not have the Portis offer anymore.

[Celeval]

Here is where I'm failing to understand totally. You could make a direct deal, and get what you want. You then advertise, and either you get a better deal or you don't. The first is still available, so it's a win-win scenario. Discounting time constraints, how is it better to pull a trigger without advertising?
That's the assumption. Will that first deal be there? Given that advertising adds both time and spreads knowledge of the deal, you're risking that.

[jeronemitchell]

Maybe it would help some people in getting the "best" players, but if you know FOF at all, its not about having the best players. You need the right ones for your team. And there are circumstances that I may not be interested in trading a stud of mine, but if the right deal comes along, I'll pull the trigger. Now, that player isn't necessarily on the market, but if something happens to come along, I'd do it.

Hey... you define "best" however you want to. You put a guy on the block, wanting someone with, say, a high Elusiveness and Speed To outside specifically. A drect trade gets you guys with 85 in both. By advertising, you still may get that direct trade, or someone else may offer you a guy with 90's in both. How are you hurt with the advertisement?

Similarly, someone offers you three first rounders for your stud. You advertise the guy, and someone else offers you three first rounders plus another stud.

Here is where I'm failing to understand totally. You could make a direct deal, and get what you want. You then advertise, and either you get a better deal or you don't. The first is still available, so it's a win-win scenario. Discounting time constraints, how is it better to pull a trigger without advertising?

[jeronemitchell]

- Feelers all of a sudden go out around the league for who I'm dealing Bailey for. Let's say the Cardinals are looking for a RB and hear the Portis is up for Bailey. All of a sudden I've got competition for a guy... and they might offer more than I am.
- Reaction to the deal. A trade is based almost entirely on perceived value. Putting someone on the open market /usually/ helps his perceived value... but oft-times, good GM/traders are in the business of creating value for their players.. if a Bailey goes on the market and sparks a "aw, he ain't worth a first round pick" discussion, then that perceived value goes down and I may not have the Portis offer anymore.

So, basically, one would not want to advertise heir players because one would not want others advertising their players, hence hurting your chances for a steal? I mean... they philosophy IS a two-way street. I've had trades worked out for someone where the other party got a MUCH better offer by advertising (I can think of a specific deal with JAX in SFL where he told me the offer someone else gave him and I said, essentially, "that guy's on crack. Take it and run"). I was happy for him... but, then again, I could see where others may not be.

So, is that essentially it? Don't advertise because you don't want others to?

[Celeval]

That and time. Advertising adds time - which may mean that first deal (the one you're conceivably advertising to beat) may not be there. If that's because you (or he) needs a player for the next game; or if he gets a better deal for his, or if he changes his mind and decides not to deal the guys at all.

Say we're talking during free agency - you're dealing a top-notch, older QB for a very good QB and RB. Your trading partner is leading for a replacement RB in free agency - you advertise the deal rather than taking it immediately. At the next F/A cycle, someone else comes in and signs that replacement RB, and your trading partner withdraws the offer.

Draft day is another example that has nothing to do with the opponent's advertising. I'm sitting in the #5 spot, and have a solid QB. There's a guy owning the #4 and #6 picks who needs a QB. I may not want him to know I'm in talks to trade my solid QB, because then the #4/#6 guy will take the available QB at #4... as it is, he may take the CB he thinks I need at #4, and I'd get the QB to fall to me at #5.

[Loki]

I know I've cancelled a trade offer because someone put the player I was asking for "on the block".

Here's how it went down:
- i contact an owner about a player I want
- The owner says the player is available if the price is right.
- I reply with an offer.
- The other owner says that's a good offer, but wants to see if anyone will outbid me.
- Player I wanted goes on the block.
- I say "forget it then".

If I'm doing all the work in finding a player I want, and creating an offer, I don't want the other owner to turn around and put the player on the block.

[Loki]

There is a such thing as trade manners.

[jeronemitchell]

I understand the timing thing in one of those situations, Celeval. I didn't think of that many timing-type situations, but timing due to SOME deadline seems to be the only problem.

I asked a question in another thread, and I'll reiterate it here : Outside of a FA/Draft situation where a need happens to be filled another way, who would pull a trade because the person asked for more time? I think it is a big sign that I should NOT make a trade if someone is unwilling to let me explore my options.

[jeronemitchell]

There is a such thing as trade manners.

"Trade manners"? That's BS. As long as the guy gives you the option to counter whatever offer he may have gotten (which you didn't give him time to do), what set of "manners" has he broken?

[Loki]

It takes work to put together a good trade offer for a guy who isn't already on the block.

I think it's rude to get an offer like that, and then disregard the work the offering owner put into the deal just to see if you can squeeze a a little bit more out of it.

[Loki]

A couteroffer is fine, but putting the player on the block to see if anyone will offer more is rude.

[jeronemitchell]

Allow me to ask you this : Have you ever been placed on the opposite side of that situation?

I've never been placed in that scenario, due to SFL's rumor rules, but here is what my mindset would be : Any player I'm willing to live without goes on the block. Your deal convinces me that I can live without the player. Therefore, they go on the block. Admittedly, I'd only keep them on the block for a minimal amount of time... but how stupid am I for just taking the first offer given?

[Loki]

I have never put a guy on the trading block to see if I could get more.

That's very poor form.

[jeronemitchell]

For the moment, I'm not arguing that. What I'm asking is whether or not it is stupid to take the first offer made to you. Is it a smart move or not?

[Loki]

Quite often I take the first offer, if I feel it's fair.

That's not because of manners, but because haggling for days over a few more scraps seems like a waste of time.

[Anthony]

Here is where I'm failing to understand totally. You could make a direct deal, and get what you want. You then advertise, and either you get a better deal or you don't. The first is still available, so it's a win-win scenario. Discounting time constraints, how is it better to pull a trigger without advertising?

in my experience the more people who get involved and the more people that know about who is available only makes it harder for me to aquire that player. if you want to aquire that player it brings more competition into the mix. if you want to trade that player you run the risk of people saying "you're asking WHAT for that guy?!?" and devaluing him publicly. i know i for one go on smear campaigns sometimes before i make an offer on a guy.

[Maple Leafs]

if you want to trade that player you run the risk of people saying "you're asking WHAT for that guy?!?" and devaluing him publicly.Which, incidentally, I've always thought was a bush-league move in an online league. Especially since it's almost always a transparent attempt to hurt a rival by driving the price down.

[Celeval]

i know i for one go on smear campaigns sometimes before i make an offer on a guy.
Which was a dead giveaway, btw - whenever I saw HA talk down about one of my players, I figured it was a good bet I'd get a trade offer in the next week. ;)

[sovereignstar]

HA's strategy is duly noted.
;)

[Anthony]

i'm too crafty. i adapt to my environment.

and sometimes i do it in private with other GM's. i do a lot of "get a load of what [insert GM name here] is asking for [insert stud player's name here]..! he's insane. that player ain't worth it".

i almost always inquire about guys who aren't on the trade block anyway. that's how you get steals.

[Anthony]

speaking of which, League of Extraordinary Football (http://www.deanhouston.org) will be holding our first ever allocation draft. 6 round manual draft, the rest autopick (preference). 7pm Central time. if there ever was a time you wanted to get in on the ground floor of a classic league, well, answer your door, it's Opportunity knocking. save the drama for your mama.

[jeronemitchell]

Dude... given that kind of strategy, that's the LAST league I'd want to play in.

[Anthony]

diff'rent strokes, i guess. i don't believe in being in a league that holds people's hands, you shouldn't be as dumb as the AI. if you make a bad trade - you learn from it. if you make many bad trades and you don't learn from them - then you aren't as good as you think and should stick to the solo game. :)