Mexico tells U.S. to watch its citizens

[Bubba Wheels]

Apparently President Fox of Mexico would like jurisdiction over certain U.S. border states as well.http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0317fox17.html

[dawgfan]

Apparently President Fox of Mexico would like jurisdiction over certain U.S. border states as well.

Would you care to provide a citation for this assertion since it's not backed up by the link you provided?

[DaddyTorgo]

Fox said he understood Americans' concern about protecting their southern border. But he dismissed fears that terrorists have sneaked into the United States through Mexico."We have absolutely no evidence of that," he said.


bolding mine. Ummmn, shouldn't that be "snuck?" *shakes head in disgust*

[Easy Mac]

Would you care to provide a citation for this assertion since it's not backed up by the link you provided?
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[clintl]

bolding mine. Ummmn, shouldn't that be "snuck?" *shakes head in disgust*

From The Associated Press Stylebook:

sneaked Preferred as past tense of sneak. Do not use the colloquial snuck.


Since The AP Stylebook is pretty much the journalism standard, just about any reporter and/or editor would be using it as the primary style guide.

Both dictionary.com and my Living Webster Dictionary also list "sneaked" as correct (and before "snuck") as well.

[QuikSand]

Thanks, clint. It's "sneaked" no matter what you think you learned on the fourth grade playground.

[Easy Mac]

Seriously clint, would I say I freaked your girl last night, or I frucked her?

[dawgfan]

He'd say you "sneaked" out of the house after your 'equipment malfunction'...

[Bubba Wheels]

Fox said he understood Americans' concern about protecting their southern border. But he dismissed fears that terrorists have sneaked into the United States through Mexico."We have absolutely no evidence of that," he said.


bolding mine. Ummmn, shouldn't that be "snuck?" *shakes head in disgust*

No evidence that drugs have been sneaked across the border into the U.S. either I would imagine. Just good, hardworking honest illegal immigrants that should be allowed to have driver's licenses and be able to send social security benefits back to family in Mexico. And maybe if Fox could figure out how to root out the corruption in his own oil-rich country he could create jobs in Mexico for Mexicans. Just a thought.

[Desnudo]

No evidence that drugs have been sneaked across the border into the U.S. either I would imagine. Just good, hardworking honest illegal immigrants that should be allowed to have driver's licenses and be able to send social security benefits back to family in Mexico. And maybe if Fox could figure out how to root out the corruption in his own oil-rich country he could create jobs in Mexico for Mexicans. Just a thought.

You forgot "that do jobs that no American is willing to do."

[Bubba Wheels]

You forgot "that do jobs that no American is willing to do."

Yes, like all those low-paying construction jobs in New York and New Jersey. ;)

[PilotMan]

From the title I had though this was about the US-Mexico soccer match next week in Mexico City.

[Bubba Wheels]

From the title I had though this was about the US-Mexico soccer match next week in Mexico City.

We will get nothing but love from our friends in the sambraros. :D

[Desnudo]

Yes, like all those low-paying construction jobs in New York and New Jersey. ;)

Yes, like picking vegetables, mowing lawns and cleaning houses in California. ;)

[Bubba Wheels]

Yes, like picking vegetables, mowing lawns and cleaning houses in California. ;)

That's the story we get told, anyways.

[dawgfan]

That's the story we get told, anyways.

Let me guess, this is some liberal conspiracy myth?

[Cringer]

Wow, Bubba, the leader of a country thinking of his people before he thinks of the U.S.? The rat bastard!!

And let me get this straight on a couple other comments of yours. The drugs coming into this country is the fault of the Mexicans? And they all were sombrero's while stealing the best U.S jobs, jobs they get because THEY seem to make it so easy to get into our country? And THEY like to bring in the terrorists that have been creating such chaos in our country lately?

One more thing, :rolleyes:

[Blackadar]

Let me guess, this is some liberal conspiracy myth?

No, just the ignorant rantings of a redneck fucktard.

[Crapshoot]

That's the story we get told, anyways.

Ah Bubba- here's hoping you get your lilly-white Lilliputia, along with the rest of your fellow crackpotts.

[Bubba Wheels]

Let me guess, this is some liberal conspiracy myth?

All I know is, listening to the radio one night a contractor from New York that lived in Staten Island stated to the host (can't remember which show, so many) that because he refused to hire illegal aliens as labor he could no longer afford to live in the New York area anymore and was moving out to Lexington, KY, where cost of living was much cheaper. He added if he were to hire illegals he could continue to live in the NY area.

I see much new housing being built and most crews are hispanic. I go into a travel plaza Flying J or Petro or Pilot on the road and groups of hispanics speaking Spanish are in there with construction vehicles parked out front. This is in the north and midwest. Believe what you want, but it ain't hard to see what's really going on.

[clintl]

All I know is, listening to the radio one night a contractor from New York that lived in Staten Island stated to the host (can't remember which show, so many) that because he refused to hire illegal aliens as labor he could no longer afford to live in the New York area anymore and was moving out to Lexington, KY, where cost of living was much cheaper. He added if he were to hire illegals he could continue to live in the NY area.

I see much new housing being built and most crews are hispanic. I go into a travel plaza Flying J or Petro or Pilot on the road and groups of hispanics speaking Spanish are in there with construction vehicles parked out front. This is in the north and midwest. Believe what you want, but it ain't hard to see what's really going on.

Yeah, it's very easy to see what's going on - contractors are hiring cheap, illegal labor who they can exploit without having to worry about obeying labor laws so they can make more money.

[Bubba Wheels]

Wow, Bubba, the leader of a country thinking of his people before he thinks of the U.S.? The rat bastard!!

And let me get this straight on a couple other comments of yours. The drugs coming into this country is the fault of the Mexicans? And they all were sombrero's while stealing the best U.S jobs, jobs they get because THEY seem to make it so easy to get into our country? And THEY like to bring in the terrorists that have been creating such chaos in our country lately?

One more thing, :rolleyes:

Not at all what I said. But I think there is a new kind of fascism in this country that makes one feel 'virtuous' if he can claim another is somehow 'racist' or bigoted. So feel virtuous.

As for the drugs, check up on some of the tunnels uncovered going into Texas from Mexico. You can drive trucks thru them. And regardless of who is more responsible for this, the suppliers or the users, the problem gets bigger.

[Bubba Wheels]

Also a couple here I no longer respond to in general, so do or don't feel slighted.

[Mr. Wednesday]

You forgot "that do jobs that no American is willing to do."You forgot, "for the peanuts that their employers want to pay."

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, I don't see anything new here. Fox's comments look pretty predictable to me based on his past comments regarding immigration.

[Cringer]

Ok, but you seem to blame the Mexicans for most of this, and not the U.S.

Oh and by the way, spanish speaking does NOT mean illegal. If that is the case then we might as well hand south Texas over to Mexico anyways because it must be filled with illegals.

On the N.Y. contractor, do you feel bad for him because he had to move out of N.Y. because he said he did not hire illegals for cheap? The reason he had to move out was because the cost of living of where he was living is to damn high for the job he has. Maybe the guy was a shitty contractor, too.

[Desnudo]

That's the story we get told, anyways.

And what you see.

[dawgfan]

All I know is, listening to the radio one night a contractor from New York that lived in Staten Island stated to the host (can't remember which show, so many) that because he refused to hire illegal aliens as labor he could no longer afford to live in the New York area anymore and was moving out to Lexington, KY, where cost of living was much cheaper. He added if he were to hire illegals he could continue to live in the NY area.

I see much new housing being built and most crews are hispanic. I go into a travel plaza Flying J or Petro or Pilot on the road and groups of hispanics speaking Spanish are in there with construction vehicles parked out front. This is in the north and midwest. Believe what you want, but it ain't hard to see what's really going on.

So how does the fact that a building contracter can't make ends meet without hiring cheap illegal aliens preclude them from also consitituting the majority of bottom-level agricultural jobs, household cleaning jobs, bottom-level kitchen work jobs, etc.?

I'll save you the time to respond - it doesn't. In fact, it fits right in with the contention that the Mexican labor force constitutes a significant proportion of the jobs done in this country that most natives are unwilling to take themselves, primarily because they don't pay a living wage (but pay quite well for illegal immigrants from Mexico).

[dawgfan]

Dola - you still haven't provided any kind of citation for your allegation that "...President Fox of Mexico would like jurisdiction over certain U.S. border states as well."

[Young Drachma]

From The Associated Press Stylebook:



Since The AP Stylebook is pretty much the journalism standard, just about any reporter and/or editor would be using it as the primary style guide.

Both dictionary.com and my Living Webster Dictionary also list "sneaked" as correct (and before "snuck") as well.

Well, some papers actually have their own stylebooks they use. Like, The Boston Globe when I worked there was different than New York Times style, (who also have their own stylebook) even though the Times owns the Globe.

So, it's actually not as cut and dry as AP Style. But all journalists know AP style, as well as the style for their particular paper or whatever.

[Bubba Wheels]

So how does the fact that a building contracter can't make ends meet without hiring cheap illegal aliens preclude them from also consitituting the majority of bottom-level agricultural jobs, household cleaning jobs, bottom-level kitchen work jobs, etc.?

I'll save you the time to respond - it doesn't. In fact, it fits right in with the contention that the Mexican labor force constitutes a significant proportion of the jobs done in this country that most natives are unwilling to take themselves, primarily because they don't pay a living wage (but pay quite well for illegal immigrants from Mexico).

Well, I like to ask the hard questions. And the one that I ask that nobody seems willing to answer is why do we tolerate a corrupt country on our south border that exports its citizens into our country illegally expecting us to give them jobs, benefits, ect..., lectures us on doing that and then turns around and shuts its own borders to its neighbor south of it for wanting to do the same thing?

[Bubba Wheels]

Dola - you still haven't provided any kind of citation for your allegation that "...President Fox of Mexico would like jurisdiction over certain U.S. border states as well."

Its an opinion, as in because Fox sees fit in warning Arizona residents about wanting to monitor illegal immigration activity and threatening them with court action it seems that Fox considers his influence as extending into those particular border states.

Now reverse the scenario. Bush warns Mexicans that any interference with illegal U.S. citizen encrouchments into Mexican territory will not be tolerated and that full U.S. pressure upon Mexican courts and law enforcement to allow these U.S. citizens free travel back and forth across the border illegally will happen and may even 'threaten' future relations between our countries. Anybody ever see that happening?

[Suicane75]

Well, I like to ask the hard questions. And the one that I ask that nobody seems willing to answer is why do we tolerate a corrupt country on our south border that exports its citizens into our country illegally expecting us to give them jobs, benefits, ect..., lectures us on doing that and then turns around and shuts its own borders to its neighbor south of it for wanting to do the same thing?

Your question isn't so much hard as it is flawed and wrong.

[Cringer]

Well, I like to ask the hard questions. And the one that I ask that nobody seems willing to answer is why do we tolerate a corrupt country on our south border that exports its citizens into our country illegally expecting us to give them jobs, benefits, ect..., lectures us on doing that and then turns around and shuts its own borders to its neighbor south of it for wanting to do the same thing?

Because if we pissed them of then we could not move a large number of our factories there for cheaper labor then the illegals who come here. U.S. companies love having factories in Mexico as much as in Asia.....

[illinifan999]

[QUOTE=Bubba Wheels]honest illegal/QUOTE]

oxymoron.

[dawgfan]

Well, I like to ask the hard questions. And the one that I ask that nobody seems willing to answer is why do we tolerate a corrupt country on our south border that exports its citizens into our country illegally expecting us to give them jobs, benefits, ect..., lectures us on doing that and then turns around and shuts its own borders to its neighbor south of it for wanting to do the same thing?

I'm not the expert on this issue, but to say that nobody is willing to answer these questions is false. I'm quite certain this debate has seen plenty of discussion on all sides of the the issues over the years, especially with the recent legislation and amendments that have made news in California.

I think if you were willing to dig deeper into this issue and talk with economists about how illegal Mexican workers fit into our economy you might not have such a cut-and-dried attitude about it.

This is a free-market economy right? Do you think that illegal immigrants are getting these jobs because of predjudice that favors them over U.S. citizens? Don't you suppose they get the work they do because they are willing to work for so little money?

[Bubba Wheels]

Your question isn't so much hard as it is flawed and wrong.

Well then spell out how, Professor. See that's how it works. You criticize and support your argument somehow.

[Bubba Wheels]

I'm not the expert on this issue, but to say that nobody is willing to answer these questions is false. I'm quite certain this debate has seen plenty of discussion on all sides of the the issues over the years, especially with the recent legislation and amendments that have made news in California.

I think if you were willing to dig deeper into this issue and talk with economists about how illegal Mexican workers fit into our economy you might not have such a cut-and-dried attitude about it.

This is a free-market economy right? Do you think that illegal immigrants are getting these jobs because of predjudice that favors them over U.S. citizens? Don't you suppose they get the work they do because they are willing to work for so little money?

I have heard construction workers state that illegals get paid the same amount as they did, U.S. citizens. Don't know to what extent, or what percentage, but hearing that did put some doubt into always hearing the 'less money, unwanted jobs' thing all the time. Not that that doesn't also happen. But not exclusively. I guess you can pay illegals in construction the same amount and not need to also pay certain other things like FICA or benefits you might have to pay a legal worker.

[dawgfan]

Its an opinion, as in because Fox sees fit in warning Arizona residents about wanting to monitor illegal immigration activity and threatening them with court action it seems that Fox considers his influence as extending into those particular border states.

This is different than insinuating he wants jurisdiction over border states. He's said that he's not ruling out using legal methods to look out for his citizen's best interests, which is not nearly as sinister as you're trying to paint it.

Now reverse the scenario. Bush warns Mexicans that any interference with illegal U.S. citizen encrouchments into Mexican territory will not be tolerated and that full U.S. pressure upon Mexican courts and law enforcement to allow these U.S. citizens free travel back and forth across the border illegally will happen and may even 'threaten' future relations between our countries. Anybody ever see that happening?

We threaten our neighbors all the time over actions of their citizens. Obviously it's not over the same issues, because our economy is exponentially larger and more productive than Mexico (or any of our Central American neighbors), so you're hypothetical example is patently flawed.

[Suicane75]

Well then spell out how, Professor. See that's how it works. You criticize and support your argument somehow.

Ok, you go first. :D

[dawgfan]

I guess you can pay illegals in construction the same amount and not need to also pay certain other things like FICA or benefits you might have to pay a legal worker.

Ergo, the cost of employing illegal immigrants is less.

You're not seriously claiming there's any other factor at work here are you?

[Bubba Wheels]

This is different than insinuating he wants jurisdiction over border states. He's said that he's not ruling out using legal methods to look out for his citizen's best interests, which is not nearly as sinister as you're trying to paint it.



We threaten our neighbors all the time over actions of their citizens. Obviously it's not over the same issues, because our economy is exponentially larger and more productive than Mexico (or any of our Central American neighbors), so you're hypothetical example is patently flawed.

Sorry, I see the leader of a foreign country pretty much trying to tell the citizens of a certain state (Arizona) that he doesn't like them attempting to protect their property rights from the intrusion of illegals coming out of his country and so he will attempt to take action to stop them (even if that means legal action in our own courts.)

What I don't see anybody really caring about is the tremendous amount of property damage to land owners caused by illegals trekking in from Mexico.

[Bubba Wheels]

Ergo, the cost of employing illegal immigrants is less.

You're not seriously claiming there's any other factor at work here are you?

Well, another question that comes to mind is if the government (state or federal) refuses to enforce some laws (like immigration ones) for its own purposes then does it really have any right to enforce any laws at all?

[Bubba Wheels]

Ok, you go first. :D

Ok, your statement is wrong and flawed. :rolleyes:

[Cringer]

Sorry, I see the leader of a foreign country pretty much trying to tell the citizens of a certain state (Arizona) that he doesn't like them attempting to protect their property rights from the intrusion of illegals coming out of his country and so he will attempt to take action to stop them (even if that means legal action in our own courts.)

What I don't see anybody really caring about is the tremendous amount of property damage to land owners caused by illegals trekking in from Mexico.

Once again, he is a leader of a country looking out for his people. Why should he look out for the U.S. before his own people?

Also, why do you insist Fox and the Mexicans are responsible for all of this. Complain to your Congressman about border security. It is our country, Mexico is not responsible for our citizens and their property rights.

[dawgfan]

Sorry, I see the leader of a foreign country pretty much trying to tell the citizens of a certain state (Arizona) that he doesn't like them attempting to protect their property rights from the intrusion of illegals coming out of his country and so he will attempt to take action to stop them (even if that means legal action in our own courts.)

And the problem with this is...? He's talking about the possibility of using our legal system to contest actions he thinks are unjustified.

Assuming these citizen's patrols keep themselves occupied simply with monitoring and not with accosting and aprehending, then he'll have no case. If they don't, then he just might, and if so why shouldn't he be allowed to pursue legal recourse?

Once again, this is a far cry from the assertion that he wants "...jurisdiction over certain U.S. border states as well." Sorry you can't grasp this.

What I don't see anybody really caring about is the tremendous amount of property damage to land owners caused by illegals trekking in from Mexico.

Can you provide some information regarding this? I was under the impression that much of the border territory isn't private property. I'd be happy to hear more information about this if you can provide it.

[Suicane75]

Ok, your statement is wrong and flawed. :rolleyes:

Dude, it's pointless to have a discussion with you. I like you well enough sometimes, but it's utterly pointless.

[dawgfan]

Well, another question that comes to mind is if the government (state or federal) refuses to enforce some laws (like immigration ones) for its own purposes then does it really have any right to enforce any laws at all?

An interesting question, one that could just as easily be applied to the U.S. as well.

The fact of the matter is that governments often overlook enforcement of some laws for reasons of convenience.

[Cringer]

Can you provide some information regarding this? I was under the impression that much of the border territory isn't private property. I'd be happy to hear more information about this if you can provide it.

I will support Bubba on this, it does happen. Illegals will go by foot for dozens of miles or more if needed, so they will go through private property and can cause some damage from leaving garbage behind, burning stuff to keep warm, cutting fences. There can be worse damage sometimes too. But it is not Mexico's fault.

[Bubba Wheels]

And the problem with this is...? He's talking about the possibility of using our legal system to contest actions he thinks are unjustified.

Assuming these citizen's patrols keep themselves occupied simply with monitoring and not with accosting and aprehending, then he'll have no case. If they don't, then he just might, and if so why shouldn't he be allowed to pursue legal recourse?

Once again, this is a far cry from the assertion that he wants "...jurisdiction over certain U.S. border states as well." Sorry you can't grasp this.



Can you provide some information regarding this? I was under the impression that much of the border territory isn't private property. I'd be happy to hear more information about this if you can provide it.

Its been pretty well documented in a number of sources. Numerous property owners including ranch owners are getting their land trashed on a pretty consistent basis. If I find some stuff I'll post it, but there's alot there you don't get in certain news sources and googling it should bring some up.

[flere-imsaho]

Its been pretty well documented in a number of sources.

Whatever. I've never seen you actually cite a source. All of your "sources" appear to be right-wing talk radio.

[lungs]

I work on a dairy farm (when not in school studying to take over said farm) that mainly employs immigrant labor. Whether illegal or legal, we do not know, nor are we required to be experts on forged documents. I imagine most of our employees are illegal.

We've gone through stages of hiring American labor, Russian labor (You know we've won the Cold War when a Russian is mowing your lawn) and now Latino. Our manager below the owner is a legal immigrant from Colombia.

I do not foresee anytime in the future going back to Americans for the low-level jobs on our farm. Americans that take these positions and are unqualified for any other position (basically, the bottom of the barrel) tend to only be looking for enough money so that they can go on a bender for the weekend. They aren't truly looking to improve their lives.

The Latinos that enter this country have enough ambition to improve their lives that they travel to a country where they do not speak the same language and customs and take low paying jobs by our standards.

For the record, I estimate the average wage of our employees is $7.50/hour plus we provide housing and utilities free of charge. I believe somebody said something about sending their social security benefits back to Mexico, which is absolutely false in most situations around here. These people are paying into Social Security and will never collect a dime of it.

[Bubba Wheels]

I work on a dairy farm (when not in school studying to take over said farm) that mainly employs immigrant labor. Whether illegal or legal, we do not know, nor are we required to be experts on forged documents. I imagine most of our employees are illegal.

We've gone through stages of hiring American labor, Russian labor (You know we've won the Cold War when a Russian is mowing your lawn) and now Latino. Our manager below the owner is a legal immigrant from Colombia.

I do not foresee anytime in the future going back to Americans for the low-level jobs on our farm. Americans that take these positions and are unqualified for any other position (basically, the bottom of the barrel) tend to only be looking for enough money so that they can go on a bender for the weekend. They aren't truly looking to improve their lives.

The Latinos that enter this country have enough ambition to improve their lives that they travel to a country where they do not speak the same language and customs and take low paying jobs by our standards.

For the record, I estimate the average wage of our employees is $7.50/hour plus we provide housing and utilities free of charge. I believe somebody said something about sending their social security benefits back to Mexico, which is absolutely false in most situations around here. These people are paying into Social Security and will never collect a dime of it.

See, now this is what makes this board so interesting. Here is a viewpoint based upon personal experience/insight on a subject most of us only hear about second-hand with no personal attacks and I actually learned something. Maybe because you actually had something to say.

[flere-imsaho]

See, now this is what makes this board so interesting. Here is a viewpoint based upon personal experience/insight on a subject most of us only hear about second-hand with no personal attacks and I actually learned something. Maybe because you actually had something to say.

Unlike you, for instance.

[Bubba Wheels]

Unlike you, for instance.

Coming from Mr. Troll himself, no less. :rolleyes:

[flere-imsaho]

Coming from Mr. Troll himself, no less. :rolleyes:

Hey Pot, this is Kettle....

[Bubba Wheels]

Hey Pot, this is Kettle....

Troll :p

[flere-imsaho]

Troll :p

That's probably the most coherent thing you've posted in the past week.

[Bubba Wheels]

That's probably the most coherent thing you've posted in the past week.

Go back to listening to your Air-America

[flere-imsaho]

Go back to listening to your Air-America

Honestly, I feel like I'm losing IQ points whenever I read your drivel.

Congrats, you're the first person on my /ignore list.

[Bubba Wheels]

Honestly, I feel like I'm losing IQ points whenever I read your drivel.

Congrats, you're the first person on my /ignore list.

My pleasure! I'm truly honored! :)

[lungs]

Another thing, I travelled to Mexico this past January and visited a remote, poor village in the mountains of Veracruz and got to see firsthand what these low-paying jobs have done to help these villages. They are truly improving their lives with these low paying jobs since these people (a lot are actually Indigenous people) are basically ignored by the Mexican government that touts NAFTA when it only benefits the top 15% of Mexico's population.

Of course some would rather see some American drunkard working these jobs and doing nothing to improve their lives. Personally, I'd rather help out somebody who genuinely wishes to help themselves. I don't care whether they are American, Mexican, or Martian, Legally or Illegally in America.