Damn The LA Dodgers!!!

[jbmagic]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2017888

The New York Mets plugged a hole in their starting rotation Sunday, acquiring left-hander Kazuhisa Ishii from the Los Angeles Dodgers for catcher Jason Phillips.

He was just a backup catcher to Piazza. I think the Dodgers gave too much.

Jason Phillips just batted .218 7 HR 34 RBI's

[Ksyrup]

Ishii sucks. And Phillips might be the starter.

[bosshogg23]

This trade has been rumored for several days. I dont understand why it took so long to go through. A 1 for 1 swap with no money involved, sounds pretty simple to me.

I agree the Dodgers got hosed pretty good. If money is that much of an issue the owner should buy a minor league team.

[MrBug708]

It's a good deal for the Dodgers and dont see how they are being hosed. Ishii walks too many players and isn't going to be a consistant starter for the Dodgers. Our catchers are Paul Bako and David Ross. Bako is the backup and Ross was pretty bad last year and so far in the spring.

[bosshogg23]

Ishii is an average starting pitcher. A 4.30 ERA, even in a pitchers park, has some value.

Phillips is a below average catcher. He is a 29 year old catcher with 800 career at bats and a SLG % below .400. His numbers went down considerably from 2003 to 2004.

[dawgfan]

I don't think the Dodgers got hosed, although I suppose they might've been able to sucker another team out of a better player than Jason Phillips.

Ishii was helped a great deal by Dodger Stadium (career home ERA: 3.71; career road ERA: 4.87). He's also been overrated due to the hype of his arrival from Japan. He's an ordinary (at best) starter with real control issues, and a steadily declining strikeout rate.

Phillips probably won't ever be a star, but his hitting last season was far worse than he'd ever hit before; it's a fair guess to say that his career MLB averages are about what you'd expect from him moving forward. I don't know how his defense rates (quick check of the Stats report at ESPN.com) - looks like he's at least average, maybe above average in this regard.

I think the Dodgers did fine on this one.

[MrBug708]

WEll, David Ross hit around .200 last year, if that even. Ishii didnt even start for most of the second half and was the Dodgers worst pitcher besides Nomo.

Right now the rotation is
Lowe
Weaver
Perez
Penny (Alvarez is subbing til he's ready)
Scott Erickson

We also have 5 star prospect Edwin Jackson ready in case someone else falters as well as Elmer Dessens as another emergency starter. Ishii was wasting space and Ross is plain terrible.

This Dodger fan is pleased

[jbmagic]

WEll, David Ross hit around .200 last year, if that even. Ishii didnt even start for most of the second half and was the Dodgers worst pitcher besides Nomo.

Right now the rotation is
Lowe
Weaver
Perez
Penny (Alvarez is subbing til he's ready)
Scott Erickson

We also have 5 star prospect Edwin Jackson ready in case someone else falters as well as Elmer Dessens as another emergency starter. Ishii was wasting space and Ross is plain terrible.

This Dodger fan is pleased

Weaver will be # 3 and Perez #2. because Lowe and Weaver have similar style. Tracy said.

who goes to the Minor now. Bako or Ross

[Danny]

Great trade. Ishii is one of the worst starters in baseball. I would have given him away for no players.

[Logan]

As a Met fan, once this deal was rumored I got very excited. The options (Ginter, Jae Seo) we had for the 5th spot in the rotation after Trachsel's injury were much, much worse than Ishii would be on his worst day, so this was a no-brainer.

Phillips isn't as bad a hitter as he performed last year, but not nearly as good as he performed in 2003. If he got 500 ABs, I would consider him a .250/12/65 guy who will play solid defense with a reliable arm. If the Dodgers catching situation is as poor as people say it is, I would hardly consider this a bad trade. Seems like a classic "both teams win" deal.

Oh, should add this in there: Phillips might be the slowest person in Major League Baseball. Makes John Olerud look like Ichiro. EDITED TO ADD: Phillips is a very likeable guy and was considered a great clubhouse presence.

[bosshogg23]

Eric Milton has a career ERA of 4.76 which is higher than Ishii's worst season. The Reds gave him something like $25 million. Isnt it reasonable to assume that a team that concerned about starting pitching would give better than a below average 29 year old catcher? Im not saying LA had to trade Ishii to Cincy but someone had to be more interested in acquiring him than offering Jason Phillips.

[PilotMan]

Great, I suppose now I have to change my signature.
Ishii is way to inconsistent to be reliable. I would have rather brought back Lima for another season.

They need to find a catcher so Ross either needs to learn how to hit or this guy better call a damn good game.

[Danny]

When adjusted for park factors, Milton has been a far better pitcher than Ishii. If someone wants a guy who has been in the top 5 in walks each of the last three seasons, then more power to you I guess. Like I said, I would rather not have him on the Dodgers roster, so that Tracy is not tempted to use him.

[PilotMan]

dola

Any of you think that Jackson might have a shot at the rotation? Is he even going to make the team? If he does is he in the bullpen for long relief?

[MrBug708]

Tracy already said that Bako was going to make the roster

[Danny]

Jackson will start the year in AAA.

[Ksyrup]

Ishii pitched in a great pitcher's park, unlike Milton, who has pitched in the Metrodome and H.R. Puffenpark in Philly during his career. Plus, Ishii walks way too many hitters to be consistent, and is usually unreliable. I don't care what his ERA is, when you aren't sure whether your starting pitcher is going to give you 7 innings or 2 every time out, you're better off with someone else.

The guy is capable of throwing a shutout or walking himself to the showers before his first time up to bat on any given night. I'd rather have a guy who could consistently give me 7 innings and a 5.50 ERA than a guy with a 4.00 ERA who kills my bullpen. Not to mention, his strikeout rate fell big time last year, making his walks even that much worse to deal with.

Maybe he couldn't handle the pressure of LA...NY should be just the cure. :)

[jbmagic]

Tracy already said that Bako was going to make the roster


So both catcher Ross and Rookie Navarro will play in the minor.

[Bad-example]

The Dodgers got rid of a bad contract and upgraded their catching, abeit not to a great degree. Ishii was terrible last year and with Dodger Stadium having less foul ground now his outlook was not good. The Dodgers did ok with this trade.

I am very curious as to how much the new configuration will cause ERA and batting averages to rise this season.

[Bad-example]

Dola

Upon further review, LA didn't get completely out from under Ishii's contract.

"The Mets will pay $1.15 million of Ishii's $3.2 million contract this season. The Dodgers will owe $2.05 million in deferred money.

The 31-year-old Ishii also has an option for 2006 with a $2.2 million buyout. Depending on whether New York picks up the option, Los Angeles could have to pay Ishii another $1.1 million to $2.2 million."

[oykib]

You guys are also forgetting that teams with Japanese players can cash in over here. The Mets are gonna be on Japanese TV a lot with Ishii and Matsui. The TV money goes into the revenue sharing pool, I believe. But merchandising and such is all gravy.

Ishii at $1.15M is a steal for the Mets.

[SackAttack]

Dola

Upon further review, LA didn't get completely out from under Ishii's contract.

"The Mets will pay $1.15 million of Ishii's $3.2 million contract this season. The Dodgers will owe $2.05 million in deferred money.

The 31-year-old Ishii also has an option for 2006 with a $2.2 million buyout. Depending on whether New York picks up the option, Los Angeles could have to pay Ishii another $1.1 million to $2.2 million."

That was probably the reason the trade took so long to go through. Ishii's a great guy to have in the rotation...if you're not paying him.

I won't miss him, but as somebody else said, we might've been able to do better.

[Ksyrup]

For NY, desperate for a 5th starter, gettign Ishii for a shade over $1M isn't a bad deal. For the Dodgers, getting a catcher and paying Ishii $2M not to pitch for them is a better deal.

[dawgfan]

The fact that the Dodgers are paying a significant portion of Ishii's salary improves the Mets' position in this deal, but I still think Ishii is over-rated, and the trend of his statistics makes him a likely candidate to go from barely average to quite bad in a hurry. That declining strikeout rate and the high walk rate do not bode well for him...

[Ksyrup]

He looked like a pre-OOTP6 pitcher last year - 13 wins, ERA just over 4, and a 98/99 BB/K ratio. Not good. It was bad enough when he was walking 100 in years past, but at least he was striking out 140-150. Now he's even. Bad trend.

[Danny]

He looked like a pre-OOTP6 pitcher last year - 13 wins, ERA just over 4, and a 98/99 BB/K ratio. Not good. It was bad enough when he was walking 100 in years past, but at least he was striking out 140-150. Now he's even. Bad trend.

Not to mention the ERA was not just over, it was 4.70, which is awful for a Dodgers pitcher. Plus, his trends shows that he is going to get worse. Like I said, I wouldnt want him in my rotation at any costs.

[MrBug708]

Time for the first annual Kaz Ishii sucks thread?

[Ksyrup]

If the Mets had any fans, it might be worth a thread.

[Hammer755]

Wow, I haven't seen this kind of support for Ishii anywhere. The guy has had by far the worst BB/9 ratio of any pitcher in the league the past 3 years, putting up a typical line of 100 BB in 150 IP. I guess it is somewhat palatable when he is striking out a batter an inning, but as Ksyrup mentioned, his K rate was off by a lot last year.

To sum it up, a pitcher with a career 93 OPS+, who walks 6 batters per 9 IP, with a declining K rate - that is not an average pitcher. The Mets would be better off with Seo - at least he has some upside and is making the ML minimum.

[Arles]

First, let me say that I am not a huge fan of Ishii and thought he was way overrated when he came in. But, I think there is something to be said for being able to pitch out of trouble and do enough to win games. There's really no big stat for that, so many people chalk it off as "chance" or "more run support". But, when I've seen Ishii, I have noticed that he does do just enough to get the win a lot. Even if that means pitching out of dicey situations. I would classify him as a poor man's Russ Ortiz in that regard.

[Hammer755]

As a Met fan, once this deal was rumored I got very excited. The options (Ginter, Jae Seo) we had for the 5th spot in the rotation after Trachsel's injury were much, much worse than Ishii would be on his worst day, so this was a no-brainer.

This statement here is just patently untrue. IMO, 2003 was the best season for both Seo & Ishii, and Seo had the better year (again, IMO). So to say that Seo is worse than Ishii on his worst day is ridiculous - Seo had the better season just two years ago.

[ISiddiqui]

And for $1M to fill the 5th Starters role, that isn't a bad deal. The Mets also got a great pitching coach (Rick Peterson), who may be able to figure out what is wrong with Ishii and set him back on track.

[Hammer755]

First, let me say that I am not a huge fan of Ishii and thought he was way overrated when he came in. But, I think there is something to be said for being able to pitch out of trouble and do enough to win games. There's really no big stat for that, so many people chalk it off as "chance" or "more run support". But, when I've seen Ishii, I have noticed that he does do just enough to get the win a lot. Even if that means pitching out of dicey situations. I would classify him as a poor man's Russ Ortiz in that regard.

Well, Ishii did lead the NL in run support in 2004 (http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/statistics?stat=rs&league=nl&season=2&year=2004&split=0). I'm trying to dig up the totals for his prior two years, but can't find them easily since he didn't pitch enough innings to qualify for the league leaders.

[Logan]

This statement here is just patently untrue. IMO, 2003 was the best season for both Seo & Ishii, and Seo had the better year (again, IMO). So to say that Seo is worse than Ishii on his worst day is ridiculous - Seo had the better season just two years ago.

And he's been getting killed ever since that season. It's easy when you can come in and nobody knows you. If you look at his stats against teams the second time around, they're drastically different than his first outing.

Something you're missing is that the Mets aren't the Yankees--they don't make a move just for the sake of making one when the slightest thing goes wrong. They would have loved to use Seo or Ginter in the 5th spot and not added any extra salary, while keeping the same reliable backup catcher, but they have ZERO confidence in them besides a spot start here and there.

I heard this pointed out on WFAN earlier today. Ishii has been much better coming out of the gate compared to after the all-star break. In his career, before the break he's 29-12 with a 3.50 ERA, while after the break, he's 7-13 with a 5.77 ERA. Since we'll be missing Trachsel for most of (if not all) the first half, if Ishii keeps up on past trends it should work out well.

EDITED TO ADD: Since Peterson was hired as the pitching coach last year, Seo has been the only pitcher in the organization who hasn't adopted his philosophies of both training and studying, which I'm sure factored into the decision to go outside the organization for a pitcher.

[Danny]

EDITED TO ADD: Since Peterson was hired as the pitching coach last year, Seo has been the only pitcher in the organization who hasn't adopted his philosophies of both training and studying

source?

[st.cronin]

Dunno why Dodger fans would be upset. The team dumped a crap pitcher for a guy who could be a #1 catcher. Sounds like a good deal to me.

[CentralMassHokie]

Ishii is a bad pitcher. His best year was 2003, when he threw 150 innings of 104 ERA+ ball. So, in his *best* year, he was league average.

However - if Peterson can some how get him to throw strikes, he's such a server flyball pitcher that he might be able to take advantage of a Beltran-Cameron outfield to be a decent #4/5 guy.

I have a hard time believing he'll be much better than Seo or Heilmann, though. I think this was more about depth than getting a great pitcher.

[Logan]

source?

It's a claim by every beat writer/reporter that covers the team. Here's the best I can come up with in print, that there's a problem in the relationship:

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/sports/200412/kt2004121416562611630.htm

Since returning to Korea last month, Seo said he asked the Mets to trade him because he has had trouble with pitching coach Rick Peterson. The right-hander also said he could possibly play for a Korean team if he can’t be a regular starter in the Major League.

``I thought it would be difficult to survive with the Mets if Peterson kept picking on me,’’

[MrBug708]

So far I like this trade, no complaints. It's early of course. Ishii's stat line was 6 walks and his ERA isn't horrible

[Logan]

Yeah, his last game he went something like 7 innings, 0 runs. With a 5th starter, it's always going to be a toss-up.

[jbmagic]

Nice to see the Dodgers doing well

the GM so far had made the right trades and pickups since he been the GM for the Dodgers.

Sometimes you question what the heck is he doing. but so far they all turn out good.


10-2 record . great start so far without Gagne the closer and Penny starting pitcher and LF Werth.

[SackAttack]

Sometimes you question what the heck is he doing. but so far they all turn out good.

All? Get back to me when Penny's healthy and Choi's hitting. Yes, one of the players we got in that trade was a piece we used to get Finley, but I'd say the bulk of the trade, the jury is still out on.

[jbmagic]

All? Get back to me when Penny's healthy and Choi's hitting. Yes, one of the players we got in that trade was a piece we used to get Finley, but I'd say the bulk of the trade, the jury is still out on.


i admit Choi sucks. i wonder how long there going to use him. Lately they been benching him so that good.

Looks like Penny is healthy. He pitching well so far in rehab.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050408&content_id=1009048&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la

Hopefully everything ok when he comes up to the major this month.

[Ksyrup]

Man, the Dodgers can't do anything wrong so far. Down 6-0, they've tied it up against Milwaukee in the 9th.

[jbmagic]

Man, the Dodgers can't do anything wrong so far. Down 6-0, they've tied it up against Milwaukee in the 9th.


yep watching the game. what a comeback. hope the Dodgers can win in extra innings.

[SackAttack]

Gio Carrera just got the Brew Crew 1-2-3, and we've got the heart of the lineup due. C'mon, Blue!

[jbmagic]

Milton Bradley hit a 2 run homerun in the 10th inning

Dodgers 8-6 lead now.

wow go Dodgers:) there a scoring machine so far this season.

[SackAttack]

BRADLEY!

[SackAttack]

Dola,

Isn't that Bradley's third homer of the series? I think he hit two last night, too.

[Danny]

Milton Bradley for president!

[jbmagic]

Milton Bradley for president!

i have him in my baseball fantasy league :)

[SackAttack]

He's just havin' a rockin' year so far, between his single against the Giants to win the home opener, and his heroics the last two days.

[jbmagic]

now i wish we had Gagne.

this closer for the Dodgers is making me nervous with a leadoff walk he issue.

now he gives up a single. Man on first and 2nd and no outs.

damn.

[SackAttack]

Way to settle down and get the next two guys, Yhency. One more!

[SackAttack]

WOO!

[jbmagic]

Dodgers win 8-6


great job to come back after trailing 6-0 after the 6th.

[ISiddiqui]

I guess DePodesta does know what he's doing ;). If the Dodgers make the playoffs again, the LA press will be killing themselves with the way they've wanted DePodesta to fail ;).

[jbmagic]

he needs to fix first base. i dont trust Choi.


but the key for great offense is get players with great OBP %. Depodesta loves that.

[SackAttack]

I guess DePodesta does know what he's doing ;). If the Dodgers make the playoffs again, the LA press will be killing themselves with the way they've wanted DePodesta to fail ;).

No they won't. The LA media, and especially Bill Plaschke, are "blessed" with an incredibly selective memory. The Dodgers could win the World Series this year, and Plaschke will talk not about how wrong he was to doubt DePo, but how he knew all along that the Dodgers would get it done.

But, of course, if things fall apart, he'll be the first vulture on the rotting corpse.

[JasonC23]

No they won't. The LA media, and especially Bill Plaschke, are "blessed" with an incredibly selective memory. The Dodgers could win the World Series this year, and Plaschke will talk not about how wrong he was to doubt DePo, but how he knew all along that the Dodgers would get it done.

But, of course, if things fall apart, he'll be the first vulture on the rotting corpse.
It's been fascinating to me, as a non-Dodger fan, to watch the incredible vitriol flung at DePodesta by the media during his brief tenure. From all the hatred, you'd think he was breaking up the defending back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back World Series champion, instead of a team that, you know, hasn't won the series since 1988 and hadn't even been to the playoffs since, what, 1995 or 1996, before last year?

Why all the hatred for a GM who's 1-for-1 in getting his team to the playoffs? I'm a Sox fan, and Kenny Williams is 0-for-4, yet a lot of media people here just love the guy. :confused: :confused:

[Ksyrup]

Without knowing anything abut the LA media, my guess is that some of the people in the media are probably as old-school as those in baseball, and that at least a part of the reaction probably has to do with DePodesta being a Billy Beane disciple. The Choi trade is probably what set them off the most, since he's the poster boy for the debate between the "OPS rules" crowd and the "this guy's intangibles are all wrong" crowd.

Aside from that, I don't know if there is something personal, or they treat everyone that way after the Malone ordeal.

[SFL Cat]

Wha....the Dodgers aren't in Brooklyn anymore??!!

[Ksyrup]

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width=772 border=0><TBODY><TR align=right bgColor=#aaaaa4><TD align=left>YEAR</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>AB</TD><TD>R</TD><TD>H</TD><TD>2B</TD><TD>3B</TD><TD>HR</TD><TD>RBI</TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>SO</TD><TD>SB</TD><TD>CS</TD><TD>BA</TD><TD>OBP</TD><TD>SLG</TD><TD>OPS</TD></TR><TR align=right bgColor=#ccccc4><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD>46</TD><TD>154</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>41</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>.266</TD><TD>.312</TD><TD>.396</TD><TD>.708</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>




Phillips isn't exactly setting the world on fire, but he probably stands to keep his job, which is more than I can say for Ishii.