Ping: Poker Players: Dealing With Tilt

[Suicane75]

I don't know how it happened, I was sure I had turned a corner in my game.
I was uber confident in everything I did and I was on my best streak to date. Then it happened. Down $5, Down $10, Down $25, and nothing was working right. I stepped away for a day, came back and boom! I'm out $25 just like that, wrong read, no cards, push the wrong cards, every possible bad play to be made I made. I stepped away for 2 more days but I missed the thrill so I deposited $50 to play some Blackjack, $5 a hand, doing ok, start figuring my poker losses for the week and decide to do a $50 hand, and boom, its all gone. It was then I realized that I needed more than a few days, I was trying to recoup my losses in the quickest time possible rather than play my game correctly. So i'm done till Thursday at the earliest, the losing mentality has to pass before I sit back down. Any other advice?

[TLK]

hxxp://www.pokerbot-pro.com/

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Ragone]

1-888-bets-off

[paperstreetsoap]

just like you are a pitcher, you have to have a short memory. you cannot think about your losses and try to over compensate. play as you normally would and you will slowly get back to even.

[Radii]

I honestly believe it happens to everyone.

My advice for when it happens: Be able to recognize it and get up ASAP. Don't gamble in any way, don't mess with money in any way. Play some FOF or watch some TV or hang out with the family or do whatever it is you do when you aren't playing poker. I know I don't have the disclipline to not go on tilt ever, but I feel pretty comfortable that I now have the disclipline to get up when I feel it happening, and it's made a huge difference in my profits.


And my advice to prevent it from happening as much as possible: Play lots of hands, the more experience you have the less suprising it'll be when someone's 23o beats your AA. Three or four times in a row. Also, play within your bankroll. if you lose a big pot and think "shit I just lost $100!" you're playing for too much. If you can think to yourself "that's 10 big bets i'll make up elsewhere" then you're not playing for too much, and i think you're a lot less likely to tilt.


That's all I got. It's not enough to prevent going on tilt ever again, but, maybe it can help limit the losses when it does happen, or limit the occurances.

[cartman]

I thought I could get away from watching "Tilt" after the first episode. It was ok, but more like a soap opera than anything else. The daughter of "The Matador" was pretty hot, but I kept waiting for them to show Miami naked. That is how I dealt with watching "Tilt".

:D

[SirFozzie]

I start joking with the other people at my table.. "gee.. does anyone mind if I turn off the giant flashing TILT sign over my head?"

[kcchief19]

Also, play within your bankroll. if you lose a big pot and think "shit I just lost $100!" you're playing for too much. If you can think to yourself "that's 10 big bets i'll make up elsewhere" then you're not playing for too much, and i think you're a lot less likely to tilt. Aside from Rags suggestion, this ranks as the No. 2 best advice.

I play poker and I like to play poker, but you have to recognize that in many respects, it is a scam. It is a system designed to reward the best at the advantage of the week. This isn't the NFL where even the losers make plenty of money. In poker, someone makes money and someone loses money.

If you ever find yourself trying to win back what you lost in one or two big scores, stop. The only thing that can happen is that you'll lose even more. If you're putting $50 in you're account and you are playing anything more than $1/$2 fixed-limit tables, you're playing above your head. You're playing with players who have more resources than you and will put you away because you're $50 may be a lot to you but it's nothing to them. I think you need to look at some lower stakes tables. Gambling is incredibly addictive, and if you get to the point where you are spending more than you feel comfortable losing or you find yourself trying to make a big score, you need to consider stopping.

I'm hooked on the the penny tables and small tournaments now because I can play a long time without risking a lot of money and have a good chance to make a couple of bucks or break even. I'm not in the class of player that Radii and some of the other guys are here -- but aside from losing money in the occassional FOFC tourneys, I tend to stick to low-stakes play that allows me to improve my game without risking more than I'm willing to lose.

[dixieflatline]

Try playing in a freeroll. Let's you get back to playing poker and if something bad happens again no money lost.

[primelord]

If you're putting $50 in you're account and you are playing anything more than $1/$2 fixed-limit tables, you're playing above your head.
If you are playing 1/2 with a $50 bank roll you are setting yourself up to lose it almost regardless of skill level. A 25 BB down swing is very common for very good players.

[Suicane75]

Wanted to thank all of you guys for the advice. I never play $1/$2, I usualy play .10/.25 NL tables at either AP or PP. But I do recognize the advice of playing beyond your means in that in the past I would sit down with $10 and say to myself "dont lose this money", and i would play not to bust out my $10, which is very bad I know but it's always the way i've done it. It is something I need to get away from and i'm trying.

Radii, you're advice struck me tonight, not in getting my AA beat by 23o but twice within half an hour I had KK & QQ beaten for heavy pots by guys who had flopped a low set, and I didn't go nuts and I didn't start betting all over the place. Playing 4 tables tonight I probably played more than I ever have in a single sitting and I really see what your saying about playing alot, maybe it was because i was winning but once things got flowing I seemed to have a better sense of things with all those hands coming at me at once. Of course it may just be PP, but i'll take it.

[primelord]

Suicane,

Let's say you are in middle position with Qh Qd. The table has proven to be a pretty typical loose passive PP NL table. Two players limp to you, what is your action?

Does your action change if it was Ah Ad instead?

[sooner333]

Well, here's my tilt situation...kinda looking for advice to deal with this one.

In my home game and dabbling in online tournaments I was up over $600 a little less than a month ago. My home game was a .25/.50 NL game, where the buy-in was slowly escalating to about $40. So, then I go to Tulsa to play in a real casino for the first time, dropping $100 in a 4/8 limit game, then $200 in a 2/5 NL game. So, I lose there, but at the time I feel like I've gained something.

Then, we raised our blinds to our home game to $.50/1 NL. Ever since then, I've dropped an additional $300 or so, at about $40-60 per time (we play twice a week). I don't know if the raising of the blinds was a coincidence to me losing, or if I've just been on a bad streak.

I guess the only things I can think of is that I've tried to play more conservative, but I'm betting aggressively with my good starting hands, then when someone bets into me, I'm usually folding unless I have something. It's like I'm being afraid of someone beating me. But, I'm trying to figure out a way to deal with this, and while I coudl sit out a few times, I kind of want to know what mindset I need for my playing style to get me back on track.

[Subby]

I read a neat quote by Jennifer Harman on how she deals with really bad beats. Her appraoach is to just look at them as "overhead" - the cost of doing business. They happen, you accept them as a part of the game, and move on.

As long as you play within your bankroll (you need at least 300BB to play at whichever level you choose), then you can look at the money as units (or BB) and your sessions as small segments of one extended, lifelong poker game.

[Northwood_DK]

Talking about tilt. Take a look at this....

Its from Ladbrokes HU table.

pkrbt posted small blind ($50)
> Pokergirl1 posted big blind ($100)
> Game # 214,943,589 starting.
> Dealing Hole Cards
> pkrbt raised for $300
> Pokergirl1 raised for $1,250
[Observer]Lastonealive> nesta lost all his money?
> pkrbt called for $1,000
> Dealing the Flop(Kª4§5§)
[Observer]Pokerkong1> pg1....
> Pokergirl1 checked
[Observer]Bamse76> all 3 dollar?
hisdude> tilt?
> pkrbt bet for $2,000
> Pokergirl1 called for $2,000
> Dealing the turn(6ª)
> Pokergirl1 checked
> pkrbt bet for $4,800
> Pokergirl1 raised for $15,000
> pkrbt called for $10,200
> Dealing the river(10§)
> Pokergirl1 went all-in for $111,640.92
> pkrbt went all-in for $26,100
> Extra chips returned to Pokergirl1, $85,540.92
> Pokergirl1 shows One Pair, Sevens
(7¨7§Kª10§6ª)
> pkrbt shows Three of a Kind, Kings
(KªK¨K§10§6ª)
> pkrbt wins $88,899 with Three of a Kind, Kings

[sooner333]

All right, here was my "bad beat"...just looking for some analysis. I was playing in person last night, I have AA, the other guy has A3...we're playing .50/1 NL. I have about 35-40 bucks, he has probably double that. So, I raise to 4 preflop. He calls, another guy who was in for the dollar folds. Flop comes out something like Q 4 3 (not exact, but something like that) where the queen is the only card that I could probably win money off of in a big way. So, I bet 4 or 5 and he calls. Next card is another lowball, a 7 or 8. I bet the same amount and elicit another call. I guess I figure he has a queen or just overs or something...doesn't seem like really good play. Anyway, another 3 comes out on the river. I go all-in for about 20, he quickly calls and shows his A3, beating my AA.

Now, I probably should have checked my AA, or made a moderate bet, but I mean, it still would have been hard to lay-down if he even put me all in. Why would he stay in with a pair of threes (even though we were five handed) so long? Should I chalk it up as a bad beat, or should I have changed my play to win a smaller pot or lost a smaller one on the river?

[Subby]

Now, I probably should have checked my AA, or made a moderate bet, but I mean, it still would have been hard to lay-down if he even put me all in. Why would he stay in with a pair of threes (even though we were five handed) so long? Should I chalk it up as a bad beat, or should I have changed my play to win a smaller pot or lost a smaller one on the river?
C) Pray that your opponent always plays this poorly.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I don't think I would have pushed on the river...

[primelord]

C) Pray that your opponent always plays this poorly.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I don't think I would have pushed on the river...
FWIW. I am not certain that Villan's play in the hand was THAT bad. The preflop call was pretty awful, but after that there is a very good chance that villan has hero reverse dominated or has 5 good outs to the best hand. And in a micro limit NL game his implied odds are fantastic.

sooner,

I would have made a bigger get on the turn. It certainly depends on the situation, but if I am betting out on the turn in a NL game I am rarely betting anything less than the size of the pot. If your opponent is behind and drawing you can really force him into a big mistake by calling your turn bet. If you make a pot sized bet he needs to have 15 or more outs to make a profitable call.

With that being said. Checking the river would have been a mistake. You are going to be shown a Q or pocket 9's or something along those lines more often than a 3 and missing those bets adds up in the end. As for the all-in bet I don't mind it. If you are going to bet he is going to push if he has a 3 and just call if he doesn't. So you are missing out on bets when you are ahead and you are going to end up all-in when you are behind anyway.

[sooner333]

but after that there is a very good chance that villan has hero reverse dominated or has 5 good outs to the best hand. And in a micro limit NL game his implied odds are fantastic.


What do you mean by this exactly...especially the implied odds part.

And just a note, the frustrating part of my home game is the willingness to call big bets (4 times BB) with Ace-anything. That wouldn't worry me in this case, because I had the pockets, but it can be scary when you're playing other solid hands like KQ QJ, even when they are suited.

So on one side, I can play extremely tight where I play solid hands (and occassionally the Brunson suited connector) and just go after pots really hard, and really try to not see a showdown or make sure if I do I'm in pretty good shape. Or I feel that I can play incredibly loose and bet at pots to take them down. Now, obviously the correct answer would probably be leaning more toward my first option, especially if I'm playing with more players leaning toward the last option.

I guess my question would be then, what's the best way to play against really loose people who are willing to call with mediocre hands on big pre-flop raises. I mean, if that was really the best way to play, you'd see more people on TV winning with those hands, or even just playing those hands...so what's the "secret"?

[primelord]

What do you mean by this exactly...especially the implied odds part.
An example of dominated hand would be if you had AK and your opponent had AQ. Putting aside an unlikely straight or flush your opponent only has 3 outs to beat you. However if the flop comes out Q 6 4. Your opponent now has you reverse dominated. You are now the one with only 3 outs to the best hand.

Implied odds refer to the number of bets or chips you expect to make if you hit your hand. I am going to assume you are familiar with pot odds, but if you aren't let me know and we discuss that as well. Assuming you are though let's say you are on the nut flush draw on the turn. There is $7 in the pot and the bet is $2 to you. In order to justify calling based on pot odds you need to be getting 4.1:1 on your money. Here you are only getting 3.5:1 so the pot odds suggest you should fold. So for simplictiy sake we will say you need another $1 1n the pot to make the call profitable. Well if you are certain that your opponent will call another $1 or more on the river if the flush hits you can justify calling the turn because you will make up for the pot odds on the river and it won;t cost you any extra if you miss because you will just fold.

In loose NL games your implied odds are often fantastic. Many of the players go way too far with their hands and are willing to put all of their money into the pot with pretty weak holdings. That means you can afford to chase a bit more when you aren;t getting the immediate odds to do so because it is likely your opponent will pay you off when you hit.

And just a note, the frustrating part of my home game is the willingness to call big bets (4 times BB) with Ace-anything. That wouldn't worry me in this case, because I had the pockets, but it can be scary when you're playing other solid hands like KQ QJ, even when they are suited.

So on one side, I can play extremely tight where I play solid hands (and occassionally the Brunson suited connector) and just go after pots really hard, and really try to not see a showdown or make sure if I do I'm in pretty good shape. Or I feel that I can play incredibly loose and bet at pots to take them down. Now, obviously the correct answer would probably be leaning more toward my first option, especially if I'm playing with more players leaning toward the last option.

I guess my question would be then, what's the best way to play against really loose people who are willing to call with mediocre hands on big pre-flop raises. I mean, if that was really the best way to play, you'd see more people on TV winning with those hands, or even just playing those hands...so what's the "secret"?
The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky would do a MUCH better job of explaining this than I will, but here is the gist of it. You profit when your opponents make mistakes. When you are holding AA and your opponent is holding A3 you don't want him to fold preflop. Ever. AA is about a 91% favorite to beat A3 headsup pre-flop. Edges don't get much bigger than that and if he wants to put every cent he has in pre-flop then that is exactly what you want him to do. You will win that hand by the river better than 9 out of 10 times in the long run.

The problem is the long run is very long. Many players have a hard time grasping how long it really is. So you are going to lose AA to A3 here and there. You may even lose that exact hands several times in a row, but over the long run you will show a profit for that play.

When you are playing loose passive players like you describe you can afford to loosen up a bit pre-flop, but you should still be playing MUCH tighter than your opponents in general. Good players have such a huge advantage over poor players in NL cash games that you can really just sit back and wait for a monster to hit because they will pay you off when it does. In the mean time when you make a hand on the flop and turn you should be making bets in proprtion to the size of the pot. I usually won;t bet anything less than half the size of the pot. Again the advantage to NL is you can make your opponents pot odds almost anything you want. If they are going to try and draw out with weak hands you need to make them pay to do so.

This is just a very high level approach, but I think it gets to what you were asking. We can get a bit more specific with the discussion if you like.

[sooner333]

Thanks for the great explanation, primelord. Just two questions out of this.

1. I know the theory of pot odds, but I guess I am a little unsure of how to calculate them, especially in the middle of the hand. Obviously this is important to becoming a good poker player (maybe not totally necessary to win the quality of games that I'm playing now, but probably if I went up to the casino and played a 2/5 NL game). And, as you said, they can be very good for you in a NL game, but also much more complicated to compute. Is there a good way to train yourself to calculate these (and I guess even learn the base of this, so you know where to begin)? I mean, I guess I could just start calculating random hands on the online poker calculator, but that seems like a tedious way, and someone has probably already done that and compiled a way.

2. You say in a low limit NL game, you can get looser, but still tighter than your opponents. What would you say the cutoff to this should be. I mean, you're going to play AA anytime, no matter what the situation and to pretty much any amount of money. KK pretty much the same. But I mean, Brunson doesn't like playing unsuited cards even like KJ or K10, probably even A10. He's playing a high stakes game though, and I'm not...so the odds of being beat by AQ and getting screwed on your Ace are worse (because more people will play A3 or K9 or something). So, should i have some guideline of which hands I will call certain raises with, or call with preflop, while not being so programmatic so I don't get read too easily?

Anyway, this poker discussion is really helping me see things in a broader light where I feel like if I learn more, I can benefit out of my game. One of the player's little brother's has been playing with us lately and has been getting incredible luck...he's not changing his play because it's been working a few times in a row and he's been banking. Pretty soon, we all know it's going to change, and he's going to come down hard. Now, while I don't see myself as nearly as bad as he is right now...I do see how you can get in that mentality. I'm far from a good poker player, but by winning a lot over a couple of months, I didn't feel like I needed to do that much to my game until I started losing and second guessing myself. Second guessing is bad because you can't have too much fear playing poker...so anyway, I'm just feeling like this is helping me think about things, and I guess I should probably pick up Sklansky book.

[primelord]

1. I know the theory of pot odds, but I guess I am a little unsure of how to calculate them, especially in the middle of the hand. Obviously this is important to becoming a good poker player (maybe not totally necessary to win the quality of games that I'm playing now, but probably if I went up to the casino and played a 2/5 NL game). And, as you said, they can be very good for you in a NL game, but also much more complicated to compute. Is there a good way to train yourself to calculate these (and I guess even learn the base of this, so you know where to begin)? I mean, I guess I could just start calculating random hands on the online poker calculator, but that seems like a tedious way, and someone has probably already done that and compiled a way.
To calculate pot odds you take the total number of unseen cards and divde that by the number of outs you have to improve. Then you subtract 1 and that becomes your odds against hitting your hand. For example let's say you are drawing to the nut flush on the flop. There are 47 unseen cards and you have 9 outs to hit your flush.

47/9 = 5.2 - 1 = 4.2

So your odds of hitting your flush on the next turn card are 4.2:1 against. So in order to make a call profitable you need to be getting better than 4.2:1 on your money. So if the pot is $5 and it costs you $1 to call you should call (actually with nut flush draw on the flop if there are 2 or more opponents still in the hand you should raise :)) if there are $3 in the pot and it is $1 to you then you should fold. This is a very simple example, but should illustrate the point.

Now obviously it can be a bit difficult to calculate this at the table. The easy way to do it is just to memorize the odds to hit on the turn for hands with 8 outs or less. You can use these odds on the river as well. The odds to hit on the river are actually slightly better since there has been one more exposed card, but they are generally close enough that using the odds to the turn will suffice for both. Here is a quick little chart that has the odds you need for 8 outs and below.

Outs Odds Outs Odds
8 4.9:1 4 10.8:1
7 5.7:1 3 14.7:1
6 6.8:1 2 22.5:1
5 8.4:1 1 47:1

Most of the time you will be getting the odds to call with hands that have 9 outs or more so you really don't need to worry about the odds for hands with that many outs. Some examples of these hands. An open ended straight draw has 8 outs so you generally want to get at least 5:1 on your money if you are going to chase an open ender. A gut shot straight draw has 4 outs so you usually want to get 11:1 to justify calling a gut shot.

There are a couple of thing to keep in mind when you are figuirng out the number of outs you have. Let's say you have Ad Ks. The flop comes Qc Td 2h. You have a gut shot draw to the nut straight. That is worth 4 outs. So in order to justify drawing to that straight you need 11:1 in the pot. However You also have two over cards to the board. There is a very good chance that if the turn is an A or a K you will have the best hand. That gives you an additional 6 outs. So this hand is worth 10 outs. You should almost always call a bet with a hand with that many outs and usually raise it. In a similar example let's say you have As Kd. The flop comes Qh Th 3h. You know still have the gut shot straight draw and two over cards. However your hand is not nearly as strong. If the Ah, Kh, or Jh come then you imrpove your hand, but someone else likely improved to a better hand by making the flush. So you should discoutn those outs. You still have 3 clean J's and 2 clean As and Ks. So this hand still has 7 clean outs. It's also possible no one has a heart so you can usually make the three heart outs combine to equal one out. That makes this hand worth about 8 outs. all of this is probably a lot to absorb at the moment, but it should get you thinking about the right things in terms of pot odds.

2. You say in a low limit NL game, you can get looser, but still tighter than your opponents. What would you say the cutoff to this should be. I mean, you're going to play AA anytime, no matter what the situation and to pretty much any amount of money. KK pretty much the same. But I mean, Brunson doesn't like playing unsuited cards even like KJ or K10, probably even A10. He's playing a high stakes game though, and I'm not...so the odds of being beat by AQ and getting screwed on your Ace are worse (because more people will play A3 or K9 or something). So, should i have some guideline of which hands I will call certain raises with, or call with preflop, while not being so programmatic so I don't get read too easily?
Don't get too concerned with people reading you. Poor players don't pay attention to how you are playing. You don't need to be tricky with them. Keep in mind that any of the following advice is just in general terms. Poker is a very situation specific type of game, but you can take a general approach to a game and adjust from there. Position is a HUGE factor in the strength of your hand pre-flop. When you are in early position you want to be MUCH tighter than when you are on the button. You also don't want to be calling raises very often. It is correct to call a raise more often in NL than it is in limit, but you still don't want to be doing it that often. In general if your hand is strong enough to call a raise pre-flop then you should probably re-raise. Offsuit hands like KJ and QT are not nearly as strong as they look, but when you are playing short handed they go up in value.

I am not certain I can really go into a full pre-flop strategy here, but in general you want to be raising and re-raising with big pairs (AA-JJ) you also should be raising big suited broadway cards (AKs-ATs) and raising hands AK-AJo in early position. You can limp in from early position with smaller pairs (99-22) suited aces (A9s-A2s) and other smaller suited broadways (KJs, QJs etc). Once you get to middle position you should lossen up a bit, but you should slmost never be limping in if you are first to act from middle position or later. If it is folded to you in middle position or later and you have a playable hand then you should raise. You can add hands like ATo, KJo, T9s etc in middle position. In late position you should call small bets with almost any suited connector and hands like A9o and A8o become profitiable although you want to be playing them against small fields and you generally should raise to get the blinds.

This is a VERY basic strategy I laid out above. It certainly doesn't cover all situations and the stronger you get as a player the more hands you can play up front, but it's going to be very rare that you will be seeing as many flops as your friends if they are all poor players. Tight and aggressive play is what gets the money in the long run. In all honesty it can be a boring way to play. You will sometimes go an hour or more without seeing a playable hand pre-flop. It takes discipline to play good poker.

Anyway, this poker discussion is really helping me see things in a broader light where I feel like if I learn more, I can benefit out of my game. One of the player's little brother's has been playing with us lately and has been getting incredible luck...he's not changing his play because it's been working a few times in a row and he's been banking. Pretty soon, we all know it's going to change, and he's going to come down hard. Now, while I don't see myself as nearly as bad as he is right now...I do see how you can get in that mentality. I'm far from a good poker player, but by winning a lot over a couple of months, I didn't feel like I needed to do that much to my game until I started losing and second guessing myself. Second guessing is bad because you can't have too much fear playing poker...so anyway, I'm just feeling like this is helping me think about things, and I guess I should probably pick up Sklansky book.
Like I said in a post above. Winning poker is a very long term thing. People can be playing awful, but if the cards fall right they can have great runs. sometimes quite prolonged runs of winning. However in the end if they keep playing that way they will lose. When you are playing winning poker you can think of yourself like the house in blackjack. Outside of counting cards you can't beat blackjack in the long run. You can have some lucky streaks where you win consistently for weeks and month on end. However in the long run you will give all of that money and then some back. When you are the best player at a poker table everyone is paying you. They may win ona given night, but if you keep playing better than they are you will win int he long run.

2+2 is going to be publishign a book at the beginning of this summer called Getting Started in Hold' Em. I would highly recommend picking this book up. Let me know if you ahve any other questions.

[dixieflatline]

2+2 is going to be publishing a book at the beginning of this summer called Getting Started in Hold' Em. I would highly recommend picking this book up. Let me know if you ahve any other questions.

The author of this book, Ed Miller,also wrote Small Stakes Hold'em which helped my game out termendously. I just wanted to second this. It appears this book is for beginners and then SSH would come after that if you are still interested.

[sooner333]

I'm pretty sure I get the pot odds now, a lot better than I did before, and I'm sure it will help. However, you mention everything about being on the flop heading into the turn (and only for that turn card). Obviously, the odds go up a very tiny bit (because the amount of cards is one less), but do you still use the same theory. There will likely be more money in the pot, so do you bet out accordingly?

[primelord]

I'm pretty sure I get the pot odds now, a lot better than I did before, and I'm sure it will help. However, you mention everything about being on the flop heading into the turn (and only for that turn card). Obviously, the odds go up a very tiny bit (because the amount of cards is one less), but do you still use the same theory. There will likely be more money in the pot, so do you bet out accordingly?
If you are playing limit hold'em the pot odds tend to change quite a bit from the flop to the turn. Since the bet doubles on the turn you will many times find yourself in a situation where you had the odds to draw to the turn, but don't have them any longer to draw to the river. The theory stays the same though. Your odds go up slightly to the river because of the extra exposed crads, but it is very rarely enough to make the difference. However remember to keep your implied odds in mind as well.

Here is an example. You have Jh Th in middle position in a limit hold'em game. Two early position players limp in and you limp in as well. It's folded to the BB who raises and everyone calls. 4 players to the flop for 8.5 small bets. The flop is Ac Ks 3d. The BB bets, both limpers call. You have a gut shot straight draw so you have 4 outs here. There are 11 small bets in the pot and it is one bet for you to call so you are getting 11:1 on your money. You only need to be getting 10.8:1 so this call is a profitable one. You call. The turn is the 5h. The bets double on the turn so the pot is no 5.5 big bets. The BB bets, both limpers call. There are now 8.5 BB in the pot and it is one bet for you to call. You are only getting 8.5:1 on your money and you need to be getting 10.8:1 to make a profitable call.

This is where implied odds come into play. You aren't getting the proper odds to call now. In order to make this call profitable you need to make up the aprox 2 BB's that you are missing right now. It's likely that is a Q comes on the river the BB is going to bet again. He has shown strength from the beginning of the hand and has led every street. It is very reasonable to expect him to do so again on the river. That is one big bet you have made up. It's also likely one or both of the limpers may call. That is another 1-2 big bets. If you hit your Q you are going to have the nuts so you will obviously raise. The BB is not going to fold for one more bet after all this strength. So he will call your raise. That is another big bet. And again the limpers may call as well. So is you hit your Q it is very likely you will pick up at least two more big bets from the BB and probably at least one more from the limpers. If you miss you will fold. So your implied odds are at least 11.5:1 if you hit which makes the call profitable here. Does that make sense?