Bonds Out Until Midseason...At Least.

[rkmsuf]

Just heard his interview from like 20 minutes ago on the radio. He said he's "tired" and hopes everyone is happy because they've broken him. He said he wouldn't be back before midseason, maybe out the whole year and maybe won't ever come back.

If you can find it, it sounds like he should be on suicide watch. Can't find a link yet but it will be out there soon.

In a way I feel bad for the guy because he is such a nut job.

[bosshogg23]

Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/specials/spring_training/2005/03/22/bonds.out.ap/index.html)

This link says he is out, possibly for the season. Nothing but a standard injury quote in it though.

[SFL Cat]

couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Six months to a year -- yeah...it'll probably take him that long to get all the steroids outta his system. :cool:

[Crapshoot]

Asshattery as usua SFL ?

As for the news- Holy mother of fuck, we are screwed.

[HomerJSimpson]

couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Six months to a year -- yeah...it'll probably take him that long to get all the steroids outta his system. :cool:


Could it be that they are already out and he is breaking down?

[bosshogg23]

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2018994)

ESPN Link. "You wanted me to jump off the bridge, I finally have jumped. You wanted the bring me down, you've finally brought me and my family down. Finally done it. From everybody, all of you. So now go pick a different person. I'm done. Do the best I can, that's about it."

[rkmsuf]

Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/specials/spring_training/2005/03/22/bonds.out.ap/index.html)

This link says he is out, possibly for the season. Nothing but a standard injury quote in it though.

Listen to the whole thing if you can. There's way more to the story than what is being reported there.

[Desnudo]

What a bitch.

[rkmsuf]

What a bitch.

Imagine being his roommate.

[SFL Cat]

Asshattery as usua SFL ?

As for the news- Holy mother of fuck, we are screwed.

Cry me a river, Giants fans. :p
No more juicy Bonds to blast those balls into the harbor.

[HomerJSimpson]

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2018994)

ESPN Link. "You wanted me to jump off the bridge, I finally have jumped. You wanted the bring me down, you've finally brought me and my family down. Finally done it. From everybody, all of you. So now go pick a different person. I'm done. Do the best I can, that's about it."


Yeah, how dare the media force you to use steriods and help a pusher make connections with other players. You and your family are just going to have to starve on the millions you've already made. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[sooner333]

Cry me a river, Giants fans. :p
No more juicy Bonds to blast those balls into the harbor.

It's a big setback, but at least we finally can play Pedro Feliz. I think this team can still make the playoffs without Bonds. We have a better staff this year, Alou in RF, and a much better fielding infield. Granted, we were one of the best teams in the majors, now it's just going to be more difficult to reach the top.

[moriarty]

Is this in any way related to the story that his ex-girlfriend testified to a grand jury that Barry admitted to her he did steroids?

[Desnudo]

You just can't stop trying to push him off that bridge, can you?

[Bad-example]

It's a big setback, but at least we finally can play Pedro Feliz. I think this team can still make the playoffs without Bonds. We have a better staff this year, Alou in RF, and a much better fielding infield. Granted, we were one of the best teams in the majors, now it's just going to be more difficult to reach the top.

The Giants have a lot of talent and are probably the best team in the division even without Bonds. I hope Bonds makes it back soon. Seeing Barry hit a homer to win the world series, giving all the haters a nice mouthful of bile to swallow, would be mighty fine to see.

[Solecismic]

Sounds like his lawyer advised him that the new steroid policy was probably going to get him. At his age, he might feel that he can't get himself back into playing shape quickly without the 'roids.

We're used to hearing about athletes recovering from surgery quickly - injuries that it would take a normal, healthy person forever to come back from. Bonds is now in the age range where even the workouts that professional athletes can take aren't going to do the job quickly. Steroids would allow him to push it more.

I'm torn on this. Years ago, I was on Bonds' side because he had to deal with so much undeserved crap from his playoff performances, and it did seem like he had a reason to be angry with the press. Now, knowing that the records are tainted and seeing him achieve a new level of obnoxious behavior, I'm finding it very hard to wish him well.

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm torn on this. Years ago, I was on Bonds' side because he had to deal with so much undeserved crap from his playoff performances, and it did seem like he had a reason to be angry with the press. Now, knowing that the records are tainted and seeing him achieve a new level of obnoxious behavior, I'm finding it very hard to wish him well.

I'm with you 100%. I always thought he was the baseball player in the league (he was the best player of this era, but sadly this will always be known as the steriods era), and people gave him too much of a hard time. Now, I don't think he got a hard enough time.

[FBPro]

Oh well.........:)

[Crapshoot]

As a general rule, I find people who smile who act gleeful at injury news to be pretty damn classless. I dont cheer when Weaver's get injured - but hey, maybe that's too much to expect.

[Ben E Lou]

Dang. He was fun to watch.

[Poli]

You just can't stop trying to push him off that bridge, can you?


How high is the bridge? I don't want to push him off a bridge that's too low.

[moriarty]

As a general rule, I find people who smile who act gleeful at injury news to be pretty damn classless. I dont cheer when Weaver's get injured - but hey, maybe that's too much to expect.

Well that's because, Earl Weaver didn't do steroids.

[HomerJSimpson]

As a general rule, I find people who smile who act gleeful at injury news to be pretty damn classless. I dont cheer when Weaver's get injured - but hey, maybe that's too much to expect.


Just to be clear, I wouldn't cheer an injury. I cheer the asshat further exposing himself for what he is.

[ISiddiqui]

Dang. He was fun to watch.
Yep... hopefully he plays for a good while this year.

[sterlingice]

Well, this makes 755 quite a bit safer.

SI

[rkmsuf]

so all this because he banged his knee on a coffee table...hmm...

[bosshogg23]

My dad is the king of sports conspiracies. Im sure he has already thought up something dealing with a secret steroid suspension. Or an alien took over Bonds body and Bud Selig found out. One or the other.

[Fritz]

Court of public opinion is certainly more of a bitch than a court of law.

[Arles]

Not a fan of Bonds at all, but I see no reason to wish him ill will anymore than someone should have wished Mantle ill will when he had his knee problems (while all hopped up on Greenies and "Red Juice").

These guys are paid to entertain us and Bonds ranked up with the best in that regard. If MLB had it's head so far up its ass that it couldn't get a process in to keep steroids (and other drug use) out of baseball, then it got exactly what it deserves. But, again, baseball won't pay for this, just athletes like Bonds, McGwire and Sosa. Fans will show up in droves for this season, the teams will continue to flourish and the only negatives will come with the above guys try to get in the Hall.

[Ben E Lou]

Not a fan of Bonds at all, but I see no reason to wish him ill will anymore than someone should have wished Mantle ill will when he had his knee problems (while all hopped up on Greenies and "Red Juice").

These guys are paid to entertain us and Bonds ranked up with the best in that regard. If MLB had it's head so far up its ass that it couldn't get a process in to keep steroids (and other drug use) out of baseball, then it got exactly what it deserves. But, again, baseball won't pay for this, just athletes like Bonds, McGwire and Sosa. Fans will show up in droves for this season, the teams will continue to flourish and the only negatives will come with the above guys try to get in the Hall.Bingo. Those guys did *exactly* what the powers that be in baseball wanted them to do--put butts in the seats by any means necessary, and when it went bad, they cut these guys loose. They doctored the log books.

[HomerJSimpson]

Bingo. Those guys did *exactly* what the powers that be in baseball wanted them to do--put butts in the seats by any means necessary, and when it went bad, they cut these guys loose. They doctored the log books.

Or...these guys choose to do illegal drugs to boost their incomes, and muscled their own Union to keep MLB from having sort of drug policy.

[FBPro]

Well, this makes 755 quite a bit safer.

SI
Good, a somewhat "honest" record then. :)

[rkmsuf]

Bingo. Those guys did *exactly* what the powers that be in baseball wanted them to do--put butts in the seats by any means necessary, and when it went bad, they cut these guys loose. They doctored the log books.

How exactly did they "cut them loose"? Last time I checked Bonds and Sosa are still receiving very, very large paychecks and have faced zero questions or sanctions from baseball.

[Ben E Lou]

How exactly did they "cut them loose"? Last time I checked Bonds and Sosa are still receiving very, very large paychecks and have faced zero questions or sanctions from baseball.{Sigh}

No love for the reference...

[Ben E Lou]

Or...these guys choose to do illegal drugs to boost their incomes, and muscled their own Union to keep MLB from having sort of drug policy.If MLB had any ounce of guts and/or integrity, they could not have been muscled. The almighty dollar kept MLB from having a drug policy, not the muscle of the players' union.

[Poli]

Just to be clear, I wouldn't cheer an injury. I cheer the asshat further exposing himself for what he is.

Depends on the type of injury for me, and it's usually just in football. I can cheer that a player misses part or rest of the game. I won't cheer for a serious injury as a rule.

[Crapshoot]

If MLB had any ounce of guts and/or integrity, they could not have been muscled. The almighty dollar kept MLB from having a drug policy, not the muscle of the players' union.

Dude, we set up a culture to have people like Bonds built up and then torn down. It satiates the idiot masses. If the movie Spiderman got anything right, it was this concept.

[rkmsuf]

{Sigh}

No love for the reference...

Sorry, I need you on that wall.

[Arles]

How exactly did they "cut them loose"? Last time I checked Bonds and Sosa are still receiving very, very large paychecks and have faced zero questions or sanctions from baseball.
Look no further than Sandy Alderson. Here's a guy that presided over "Steroid U" at Oakland and used that to vault into some league capacity. And, now that all the horses have left the barn, he admits he may have known about some of the steroid use.

To quote Adam Sandler:

"Once again, things that could have been brought to my attention YESTERDAY"

[HomerJSimpson]

If MLB had any ounce of guts and/or integrity, they could not have been muscled. The almighty dollar kept MLB from having a drug policy, not the muscle of the players' union.


Who runs baseball? Hasn't it been proven that the MBLPA has much more control of what is happening in baseball than Bud Selig and the owners. I remember distinctly a few years ago that Donald Fehr said the player's union would "never" allow drug testing. So, it is the owner's fault that the player's union refused to protect its own members?

[NoMyths]

The almighty dollar kept MLB from having a drug policy, not the muscle of the players' union.The muscle seemed real enough when the season was at stake back in 1994. In fact, that muscle shut down baseball.

I have little sympathy for those who chose to cheat, despite how many fans they brought in.

[rkmsuf]

Look no further than Sandy Alderson. Here's a guy that presided over "Steroid U" at Oakland and used that to vault into some league capacity. And, now that all the horses have left the barn, he admits he may have known about some of the steroid use.

To quote Adam Sandler:

"Once again, things that could have been brought to my attention YESTERDAY"

They are all to blame. Owners and players. Somehow excusing the players seems out of whack to me.

[RendeR]

Bonds is a seriously huge fucking pussy.


I am so tired of his self centered "yer all out to get me" attitude.

He did the drugs, he's reaping the rewards for doing so, and STILL he tried to be "holier than thou" with the media.


What a collossal PUTZ.

[Franklinnoble]

Boo hoo. Somebody call me the waaahhmbulance.

Bonds has made a fortune, playing a childs game, and he cheated, at that.

I don't care if MLB looked the other way, or even quietly encouraged it. A man should be held accountable for his own actions, and he should take responsibility for them.

Good riddance, I say. I might actually start watching baseball again if Bonds is gone without breaking Ruth or Aaron's record.

[Arles]

They are all to blame. Owners and players. Somehow excusing the players seems out of whack to me.
I'm not excusing the players. I'm just saying that advocating the death penalty for them seems a little rash given the history of cheating this game and MLB's "wink-wink" approval of steroid use while it was filling the stands.

But, if the end result is some tarnish off the reputation of these guys (while they still end up in the Hall), I have no problem with that. I just think baseball will skate away scott free yet again.

[rkmsuf]

I'm not excusing the players. I'm just saying that advocating the death penalty for them seems a little rash given the history of cheating this game and MLB's "wink-wink" approval of steroid use while it was filling the stands.

But, if the end result is some tarnish off the reputation of these guys (while they still end up in the Hall), I have no problem with that. I just think baseball will skate away scott free yet again.

I would agree with that and I found it encouraging that Congress reserved most of it's venom for MLB executives and treaded lightly with the players.

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm not excusing the players. I'm just saying that advocating the death penalty for them seems a little rash given the history of cheating this game and MLB's "wink-wink" approval of steroid use while it was filling the stands.

But, if the end result is some tarnish off the reputation of these guys (while they still end up in the Hall), I have no problem with that. I just think baseball will skate away scott free yet again.


Where in this thread did anyone advocate the death penalty? You seem to be saying that you agree with "tarnishing" their reputation while being quick to defend their actions when any of that "tarnishing" ever happens.

[Suicane75]

I could give a shit who deserves more blame, i'm done with the whole damn sport. I could honestly care less about the sport at this point. Since I decided not to play fantasy baseball this year it occured to me that i honestly have no real interest in the game at all anymore. Liberating actually.

[HomerJSimpson]

BTW: I love how people who usually advocate personal responsibility suddenly is ready to put more blame on anyone and everyone except the ballplayer when it comes to steriods use. Video games don't kill people, but MLB does if they don't tell grown men it is a bad thing to do illegal drugs.

[Ben E Lou]

They oughta be legal, though. Grown men should have the right to make decisions about what they put into their own bodies.

[Celeval]

To quote Adam Sandler:
"Once again, things that could have been brought to my attention <b>BEFORE MY FANTASY LEAGUE DRAFT</b>"
*sigh*

Fixed.

[Arles]

Where in this thread did anyone advocate the death penalty? You seem to be saying that you agree with "tarnishing" their reputation while being quick to defend their actions when any of that "tarnishing" ever happens.
I have always been speaking more in regards to the overall tone, than individual posters. The source of my ire has always been at the media members trying to snowball steroid use into the main reason for the power jump in the 90s (to which I completely disagree) and the many clamoring for asterisks on these records and a boycott on their HOF voting.

I do think that too much time has been spent on this witch-hunt on former/older athletes and not enough on trying to get a legit solution in place.

[rkmsuf]

They oughta be legal, though. Grown men should have the right to make decisions about what they put into their own bodies.

That I don't agree with. Because I don't want to risk killing myself I am relegated to scrub status or don't make MLB at all under that system.

[Poli]

They oughta be legal, though. Grown men should have the right to make decisions about what they put into their own bodies.

Interesting view. What are your thoughts on drug use, other than steroids, of course?

[sterlingice]

They oughta be legal, though. Grown men should have the right to make decisions about what they put into their own bodies.
While I think the "won't somebody please think of the children" crying that has surrounded this case, you have to worry about it somewhat. Millions of kids do aspire to play baseball and if you say it's ok for adults to do it but not for kids, then you really are sending a bad message. A large percentage of kids do underage smoking and drinking and the same would happen if you said adults can use steroids but kids can't.

SI

[Crapshoot]

They weren't fucking banned in baseball, something every asshat who's talked about cheating conveniently forgets . Else, go back and tear up Mays for speed, Ruth for amphs, and a lot further back. And I'm still inclined to believe what he has to say.

[HomerJSimpson]

That I don't agree with. Because I don't want to risk killing myself I am relegated to scrub status or don't make MLB at all under that system.


Give him a break. He is a libertarian and just being consistent.

[Ben E Lou]

Interesting view. What are your thoughts on drug use, other than steroids, of course?That it is a stupid thing to do that to yourself, but that in America we have the right to do stupid things to ourselves.

[condors]

I am not here to post the past, going forward i will do whatever i can for baseball

[rkmsuf]

They weren't fucking banned in baseball, something every asshat who's talked about cheating conveniently forgets . Else, go back and tear up Mays for speed, Ruth for amphs, and a lot further back. And I'm still inclined to believe what he has to say.

Great so baseball advocated breaking federal law then. Wonderful.

Murder isn't banned in baseball either. I'll bet pot smoking isn't either.

[Arles]

Murder isn't banned in baseball either.
But murder doesn't impact performance :p

[weinstein7]

In an attempt to threadjack away from another steroid argument...

The Giants this season will be a fantastic test of the Ewing theory. And if Pedro Feliz is as good as they say, the theory should pass with flying colors.

[HomerJSimpson]

But murder doesn't impact performance :p


It does if you shoot the pitcher. Makes it hard to throw a curve.

[moriarty]

Where in this thread did anyone advocate the death penalty?

I'm still trying to figure out where people were cheering his injury.

[Poli]

I wish Scott Pose took steroids. He'd still be the centerfielder for the Marlins!

[ISiddiqui]

Good, a somewhat "honest" record then. :)
I'm sure that Aaron was on greenies (ie, speed) during his career. So, if you want to disqualify records... you can do it to that one as well.

[Ben E Lou]

I'm sure that Aaron was on greenies (ie, speed) during his career. So, if you want to disqualify records... you can do it to that one as well....and alcohol was illegal when Ruth did a good bit of his damage, so strike him from the record book. :p

[Poli]

I'm sure that Aaron was on greenies (ie, speed) during his career. So, if you want to disqualify records... you can do it to that one as well.


Come on, who hasn't been on speed? :rolleyes:

Just kidding. :)

[Franklinnoble]

But murder doesn't impact performance :p

You need to watch The Last Boy Scout again...

[Fritz]

Come on, who hasn't been on speed? :rolleyes:

Just kidding. :)


placing a call to your pisstester now....

[ISiddiqui]

Great so baseball advocated breaking federal law then. Wonderful.

Murder isn't banned in baseball either. I'll bet pot smoking isn't either.
.. um, there has been plenty of players who got in trouble for doing cocaine and came back into the league. It isn't baseball's responsibility for punishing people who break the law; it's the government's. If they want to put you in jail for it, that's their right. Baseball doesn't have to assess greater penalties (and in a lot of cases shouldn't).

[HomerJSimpson]

.. um, there has been plenty of players who got in trouble for doing cocaine and came back into the league.

After suspensions.

[Solecismic]

Should we ban all women who've had plastic surgery from beauty pageants? Wait, is there anyone under the age of 50 who still watches or cares about beauty pageants?

At some point, the equivalent will be available for baseball. Artificial limbs better than the original. "I'd give my right arm to be a baseball star" may become reality. At which point, it's just a slippery slope away from steroid use.

[rkmsuf]

.. um, there has been plenty of players who got in trouble for doing cocaine and came back into the league. It isn't baseball's responsibility for punishing people who break the law; it's the government's. If they want to put you in jail for it, that's their right. Baseball doesn't have to assess greater penalties (and in a lot of cases shouldn't).

Right so people need to get their panties out of a bunch because Congress stepped in.

Hey if you want the government to regulate baseball, MLB is well on their way.

[rkmsuf]

Should we ban all women who've had plastic surgery from beauty pageants? Wait, is there anyone under the age of 50 who still watches or cares about beauty pageants?

At some point, the equivalent will be available for baseball. Artificial limbs better than the original. "I'd give my right arm to be a baseball star" may become reality. At which point, it's just a slippery slope away from steroid use.


Is that like midgets who are "lifting"?

[ISiddiqui]

Right so people need to get their panties out of a bunch because Congress stepped in.

Hey if you want the government to regulate baseball, MLB is well on their way.
Um... no. Two totally different situations. The government can charge each player for a crime they've committed. Congress, however, writing the rules of a private organization is distateful. MLB is a private organization, so why should Congress get to write its internal rules? If it is violating the law, book 'em, but don't write their rules.

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm sure that Aaron was on greenies (ie, speed) during his career. So, if you want to disqualify records... you can do it to that one as well.


You're sure? Aaron was definitely using an illegal drug when he broke the record?

[HomerJSimpson]

Um... no. Two totally different situations. The government can charge each player for a crime they've committed. Congress, however, writing the rules of a private organization is distateful. MLB is a private organization, so why should Congress get to write its internal rules? If it is violating the law, book 'em, but don't write their rules.


So your against all labor laws, right?

[HomerJSimpson]

...and alcohol was illegal when Ruth did a good bit of his damage, so strike him from the record book. :p


And alcohol is a performance enhancer?

[ISiddiqui]

You're sure? Aaron was definitely using an illegal drug when he broke the record?
You sure McGwire was?

If you want to take conjecture and claim McGwire's record is 'fake', then I can do the same for Aaron's, especially knowning how widespread greenies were in that era.

[Poli]

placing a call to your pisstester now....

They'll never catch me. Never.

[HomerJSimpson]

You sure McGwire was?

If you want to take conjecture and claim McGwire's record is 'fake', then I can do the same for Aaron's, especially knowning how widespread greenies were in that era.


I didn't, but since he refuse to say he didn't under oath I'd say that is pretty damning. I never said Mac definitely did, but I'd say Bonds, Giambi, Sheffield, etc. that said they did under oath leaves very little doubt.

[bosshogg23]

You're sure? Aaron was definitely using an illegal drug when he broke the record?

Unless Aaron has admitted drug use, I dont know of any accusation against him. However Jim Bouton's Ball Four, for what its worth, made it clear well more than half of players used "greenies" back then.

[moriarty]

I am not here to post the past, going forward i will do whatever i can for baseball

Classic - I missed this the first time.

[rkmsuf]

Um... no. Two totally different situations. The government can charge each player for a crime they've committed. Congress, however, writing the rules of a private organization is distateful. MLB is a private organization, so why should Congress get to write its internal rules? If it is violating the law, book 'em, but don't write their rules.

So basically if you are a member of this private organization it is fine to commit a federal crime because heck we just don't feel like testing for or disclosing those test results.

I mean f-it. Do whatever you want boys. Wezz private. Smoke up some weed in the clubhouse. We'll cover for ya.

[Desnudo]

.. um, there has been plenty of players who got in trouble for doing cocaine and came back into the league. It isn't baseball's responsibility for punishing people who break the law; it's the government's. If they want to put you in jail for it, that's their right. Baseball doesn't have to assess greater penalties (and in a lot of cases shouldn't).

Baseball has long assumed responsibility for punishing people who break the law. They, along with the other sports, have "good citizen" standards for the good of the game. For example, if Derek Jeter attempted to kill someone, he would be punished by baseball for the good of the game. Or if A-Rod was caught soliciting men for the purposes of prostitution, to give another example.

[ISiddiqui]

So your against all labor laws, right?
Hey, Mr. Strawman is in the building :p. Reading comprehension is important. Like I said, the government can book you for violating one of their laws. But writing your rules is something I'm not fond of. They are different.

[ISiddiqui]

Baseball has long assumed responsibility for punishing people who break the law. They, along with the other sports, have "good citizen" standards for the good of the game. For example, if Derek Jeter attempted to kill someone, he would be punished by baseball for the good of the game. Or if A-Rod was caught soliciting men for the purposes of prostitution, to give another example.
That is something they've decided to do to look good to the public. They shouldn't be forced to do so (and they aren't forced to do so) by the government. The government hasn't written these rules in.

[Arles]

You're sure? Aaron was definitely using an illegal drug when he broke the record?
I'm not sure if he was on drugs the day he broke the record ;), but Ball Four and other resources have mentioned fairly convincingly that both Willie Mays and Hank Aaron had "Red Juice" in the dugout with them for most games. "Red Juice" was basically a liquid form of speed.

[HomerJSimpson]

Hey, Mr. Strawman is in the building :p. Reading comprehension is important. Like I said, the government can book you for violating one of their laws. But writing your rules is something I'm not fond of. They are different.

Labor laws dealing with certain businesses are not uncommon at all. That is all this would be (covering all sports, not just baseball from what I've heard). I love someone accusing me of building a strawman when that is all I've seen from the pro-steriod camp in this thread.

[Arles]

So basically if you are a member of this private organization it is fine to commit a federal crime because heck we just don't feel like testing for or disclosing those test results.
No, law enforcement can put you in jail if it has evidence you committed the crime, but congress can't go in and remove your "Employee of the Month Award" from 2002 if you did weed.

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm not sure if he was on drugs the day he broke the record ;), but Ball Four and other resources have mentioned fairly convincingly that both Willie Mays and Hank Aaron had "Red Juice" in the dugout with them for most games. "Red Juice" was basically a liquid form of speed.


Then suspend them for two weeks if they ever return to the game. I'll be completely consistent. :D

[HomerJSimpson]

No, law enforcement can put you in jail if it has evidence you committed the crime, but congress can't go in and remove your "Employee of the Month Award" from 2002 if you did weed.


Which congressman has suggested that?

[Desnudo]

That is something they've decided to do to look good to the public. They shouldn't be forced to do so (and they aren't forced to do so) by the government. The government hasn't written these rules in.

Baseball has always done, or tried to do, that, it's not a recent occurrence. It just happens that they have the most incompetent commissioner in the history of the game right now. They do do it to look good to the public, it only makes sense. And certainly, the government should stay out of private business.

[rkmsuf]

No, law enforcement can put you in jail if it has evidence you committed the crime, but congress can't go in and remove your "Employee of the Month Award" from 2002 if you did weed.

That's where Sen. Bunning sounded like a moron.

I'm in no way in support of asterisk or erasing records but I have no problem with skepticism over the legitimacy of such records.

I'm a fix it going forward guy and believe it takes outside pressure to really get MLB to get it done.

[Arles]

Then suspend them for two weeks if they ever return to the game. I'll be completely consistent. :D
Heck, do the same with McGwire ;)

I just find the hypocrisy interesting from all the old beat writers that say it will be a travesty if Bonds (using steroids) shatters the record by Hank Aaron (using red juice). I could see more outrage against the era (more expansion, tighter wound baseball, closer fences, smaller strike zone) than against drug use.

[Arles]

Which congressman has suggested that?
Bunning, among others.

[HomerJSimpson]

Bunning, among others.


Bunning is an idiot then, and such a law would never pass. Actually, no law will pass if the player's association will allow a real drug testing/punishment rule to be enforced.

[HomerJSimpson]

Heck, do the same with McGwire ;)

I just find the hypocrisy interesting from all the old beat writers that say it will be a travesty if Bonds (using steroids) shatters the record by Hank Aaron (using red juice). I could see more outrage against the era (more expansion, tighter wound baseball, closer fences, smaller strike zone) than against drug use.


I'm not a beat writer, nor is anyone you are currently having a discussion with (that I know of).

[moriarty]

I just find the hypocrisy interesting from all the old beat writers that say it will be a travesty if Bonds (using steroids) shatters the record by Hank Aaron (using red juice).

Unlike Ardent, I haven't done speed or liquid speed, but how exactly does that help you hit home runs? I would think it'd make you more jittery if anything.

[SFL Cat]

They oughta be legal, though. Grown men should have the right to make decisions about what they put into their own bodies.

Hooboy, can't wait for the bionic implants...200-300 dingers per season...HERE WE COME!!!!

[Suicane75]

They oughta be legal, though. Grown men should have the right to make decisions about what they put into their own bodies.

Subby agrees.

[Arles]

Unlike Ardent, I haven't done speed or liquid speed, but how exactly does that help you hit home runs? I would think it'd make you more jittery if anything.
Supposedly, it helped your hitting eye and allowed your reflexes to act quicker. And, as many have said on steroids, if it didn't help, why did so many take it?

[Poli]

Unlike Ardent, I haven't done speed or liquid speed, but how exactly does that help you hit home runs? I would think it'd make you more jittery if anything.

This reminds me that I need to start up my new softball dynasty thread.

[moriarty]

Supposedly, it helped your hitting eye and allowed your reflexes to act quicker. And, as many have said on steroids, if it didn't help, why did so many take it?

Interesting - it was an honest question. I thought they just took it to stay awake during the god awful boring games ... especially after partying all night.

[Arles]

I'm not a beat writer, nor is anyone you are currently having a discussion with (that I know of).

Mike Lopresi
http://www.indystar.com/articles/5/230747-4075-036.html
The Hall of Fame ballot with his name will come in the mail in two years. Then will be the moment to pull it out of the envelope, look at the box next to Mark McGwire, take pen in hand and . . .

I don't know yet.

What was once obvious is now not so clear. The slam-dunk case for McGwire in Cooperstown, with all his home run tonnage and all his majestic rockets into the night, is now as tenuous as his testimony

Phil Arvia
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/arvia/x21-ard1.htm
What am I to do with Mark McGwire now?

Or, more correctly, what am I to do with him in 2006?

That's when he will appear on baseball's Hall of Fame ballot for the first time, along with Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr. Upon retiring, they were considered first-ballot locks all, a designation that, among all the special players enshrined, would mark them among the truly most special.

Except, in McGwire's case, it seems not to be quite so true anymore.

Bill Plaschke
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke20mar20,1,4501269.column?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=1&cset=true
Every winter, in a fat white envelope thick with reverence, the baseball Hall of Fame ballot arrives at my home.

Every winter, treading between statistics and memories, it is a process filled with questions.

This week, one was answered.

When Mark McGwire's name is on the ballot, I will not vote for him.

Skip Bayless
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/050318&num=0
It leaves me wondering whether McGwire even belongs in the Hall of Fame. The only case you can make for him is a power case. Yes, he hit a then-record 70 home runs in 1998, and he wound up with 583 for his career. But he won no MVPs and only one Gold Glove.

If some of McGwire's power came from a syringe ....

Ron Kroichick
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/03/20/SPGVHBSB3M1.DTL
Mark McGwire went to Washington this past week, but will he go to Cooperstown in 2007?

McGwire once qualified as a near-lock for election to the Hall of Fame. Now his candidacy twists in doubt in the wake of his deepening involvement in baseball's steroid turmoil and his widely ridiculed testimony before Congress on Thursday.

In an informal survey, The Chronicle spoke to 13 members of the Baseball Writers Association of America from around the country on Friday and Saturday. Five said they would vote for McGwire, six said they would not and two were undecided.

Want me to keep going?

[HomerJSimpson]

Mike Lopresi
http://www.indystar.com/articles/5/230747-4075-036.html


Phil Arvia
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/arvia/x21-ard1.htm


Bill Plaschke
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke20mar20,1,4501269.column?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=1&cset=true


Skip Bayless
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/050318&num=0


Ron Kroichick
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2005/03/20/SPGVHBSB3M1.DTL


Want me to keep going?

Missed my point. You are not talking with the people you are in the discussion with, but arguing with people that are not here. In other words, stop painting us as being in the same picture as them!

[Danny]

Arlie, if I didn't know better, I would say you were a liberal from your arguments in this and the other steroids threads :).

[ISiddiqui]

Labor laws dealing with certain businesses are not uncommon at all. That is all this would be (covering all sports, not just baseball from what I've heard). I love someone accusing me of building a strawman when that is all I've seen from the pro-steriod camp in this thread.
:headhittingwall:

There is nothing wrong with the government enforcing its own laws! It is when the government directly rewrite a private organizations rules that a problem exists. Send the ones that did steroids to jail, don't say we are going to write your rules for you, MLB. I don't think you are getting this distinction. It's quite easy, prosecute for violating laws, don't re-write rules.

[HomerJSimpson]

:headhittingwall:

There is nothing wrong with the government enforcing its own laws! It is when the government directly rewrite a private organizations rules that a problem exists. Send the ones that did steroids to jail, don't say we are going to write your rules for you, MLB. I don't think you are getting this distinction. It's quite easy, prosecute for violating laws, don't re-write rules.


Right, so if the government writes a law dealing with baseball, they can enforce that law. Just like they enforce labor laws, construction laws, zoning laws, etc. etc. etc.

[HomerJSimpson]

BTW, did you know that toliet paper must be hung 19-inches from the floor in one stall of any comercial buildings bathroom? Exactly 19 inches, or you can be prevented from opening the building.

[Poli]

BTW, did you know that toliet paper must be hung 19-inches from the floor in one stall of any comercial buildings bathroom? Exactly 19 inches, or you can be prevented from opening the building.

Knowledge is power.

[Arles]

Hey if everyone thinks McGwire and Bonds' records should stand and that they are both first ballot Hall of Famers, I don't have much of a beef with them. I just wish that the media would put as much emphasis into pushing for harsher steroid penalties/standards for MLB, Minors, College, HS and American Legion as they are in this 90s steroid witch-hunt. What's done is done and there's not much to gain by crying over spilt milk. You can, of course, put the milk in a more secure container for next time though ;)

[Huckleberry]

Hey if everyone thinks McGwire and Bonds' records should stand and that they are both first ballot Hall of Famers, I don't have much of a beef with them. I just wish that the media would put as much emphasis into pushing for harsher steroid penalties/standards for MLB, Minors, College, HS and American Legion as they are in this 90s steroid witch-hunt. What's done is done and there's not much to gain by crying over spilt milk. You can, of course, put the milk in a more secure container for next time though ;)
If the public ridicule of steroids users prevents hundreds of kids from using them, well, you get the idea.

I don't have a problem with it. If it's not a big deal, why won't they just come out and admit they used them? Have you noticed how little heat Canseco is feeling from the media after the hearings?

[HomerJSimpson]

Hey if everyone thinks McGwire and Bonds' records should stand and that they are both first ballot Hall of Famers, I don't have much of a beef with them. I just wish that the media would put as much emphasis into pushing for harsher steroid penalties/standards for MLB, Minors, College, HS and American Legion as they are in this 90s steroid witch-hunt. What's done is done and there's not much to gain by crying over spilt milk. You can, of course, put the milk in a more secure container for next time though ;)


There is no way to do one without the other. Without the BALCO press, would the current piece of crap drug testing agreement been done? (pssst. the answer is no)

Would we know the level of piece of crap this current agreement was without the Congressional hearing? (Psst. again, the answer is no)


For your repeated saying that what you want is a true and harsh anit-steriod policy, if there is no look at the past and no media outcry, the drugs would continue to be passed around the lockrooms.

[Arles]

I don't have a problem with it. If it's not a big deal, why won't they just come out and admit they used them? Have you noticed how little heat Canseco is feeling from the media after the hearings?
Yeah, I would think the pressure to come clean lessens when you are no longer affiliated with baseball and have no illusions of making the Hall of Fame. You know, I can't quite understand why players like Canseco, Caminiti and Jeremy Giambi admitted they used steroids, while people like Sosa, Bonds and McGwire haven't. I mean, both had similar careers and have the same to lose by going public. :rolleyes:

Show me one player with Hall aspirations that admits to using steroids and I will show you a media onlslaught against that player making the Hall with no parallel in baseball history.

[HomerJSimpson]

Show me one player with Hall aspirations that admits to using steroids and I will show you a media onlslaught against that player making the Hall with no parallel in baseball history.

I think we will when Mac comes up, even though he admitted nothing. Of course, no one forced him to use anything. I'd vote him in, but I'm not crying if he don't make it, or it takes a couple of years. It was his choice.

[Huckleberry]

Show me one player with Hall aspirations that admits to using steroids and I will show you a media onlslaught against that player making the Hall with no parallel in baseball history.
Canseco thinks he should be in the Hall. Does that count?

More seriously, these guys knew it would damage their reputations if it came out when they took them to begin with. They took them anyway. So if the consequences come to fruition, I'm supposed to feel sorry for them?

Not gonna happen.

[KWhit]

I am amazed that so many people are giving the players a free pass. There's plenty of blame to go around to MLB and the MLBPA, but the players are the ones who actually shot up. They are ultimately responsible for their actions and whatever consequences come from them.

[bosshogg23]

I would guess Jason Giambi thought he had a chance if he had a few more great years.

He doesnt but I bet he thought/thinks he does.

[Anthony]

i don't understand why Arles is such an apologist regarding the players juicing up.

[Huckleberry]

i don't understand why Arles is such an apologist regarding the players juicing up.
Arles is an athlete apologist on every issue.

CBAs, drug testing policies, media interaction, fan interaction, etc. With every single issue he tries to deflect criticism from the player(s). He's consistent, I'll give him that.

[dawgfan]

I am amazed that so many people are giving the players a free pass. There's plenty of blame to go around to MLB and the MLBPA, but the players are the ones who actually shot up. They are ultimately responsible for their actions and whatever consequences come from them.

Who's advocating giving the players a free pass? What Arlie (and me and others) is arguing is that people should have a little perspective on this issue given the history of baseball and performance-enhancers and the probability that most people are overstating the impact steroids have had on the recent offensive surge in the game.

Feel free to denigrate those you think juiced up, but keep in mind that MLB turned a blind eye towards it for years, many in the past in supposedly "cleaner" eras did things like amphetamines that enhanced performance, and the surge of hitting in the game in the last couple decades is far more attributable to factors other than steroids.

[Huckleberry]

...and the surge of hitting in the game in the last couple decades is far more attributable to factors other than steroids.
I agree up to this point.

http://www.hornfans.com/recruiting/huckleberry/bondsmcgwire.jpg

Those 2 spikes in his mid and late thirties are not far more attributable to factors other than steroids for this particular individual, IMO.

[dawgfan]

I agree up to this point.

http://www.hornfans.com/recruiting/huckleberry/bondsmcgwire.jpg

Those 2 spikes in his mid and late thirties are not far more attributable to factors other than steroids for this particular individual, IMO.

Perhaps. The shame (for us and for the players themselves) is we'll never know for sure how much was natural ability, how much was weight-lifting and legal supplements, and how much was illegal supplements (if any?)

[Danny]

I agree with Arles on some of his points. Things like greenies, speed, segregation and many others have also had a great impact on statistics. I don't believe any stats should be wiped out or have asterisks next to them. If Bonds finishes with more home runs than Aaron, then I will consider him the all time home run leader.

From a personal stand point, I disagree with the claims that just because baseball has had problems in the past, the steroids issue should be given leniency. I wasn't alive during the careers of Mays, Mantle and Aaron, and I don't have any feelings either way about any of those players. They were great players, like Bonds or McGwire, but I didn't grow up watching them and I didn't model after them when I was played little league.

I find it preposterous that past failures is a reason being given to excuse MLB and today’s ballplayers. Is racism in the past an excuse for racism today? Are women not being able to earn equal pay to that of a man an excuse to continue those practices? Obviously, these comparisons are very extreme, but the actions of the past should not excuse the actions of the present.

[dawgfan]

The past isn't necessarily an excuse for the present, but it can provide context to better assess the qualities of the present.

[dawgfan]

Hooboy, can't wait for the bionic implants...200-300 dingers per season...HERE WE COME!!!!

I'm assuming exaggeration on your part, but do you really think medical advances will decidedly favor hitters? The balance of power in baseball has always shifted back in forth between hitters and pitchers. Baseball had an even greater offensive explosion in the '30's than is happening now, but the pendulum eventually swung back in the other direction leading to the pitching extreme of 1968.

[Danny]

The past isn't necessarily an excuse for the present, but it can provide context to better assess the qualities of the present.

I understand that. I should have worded it a tad differently. The actions of the past should not excuse the actions of the present

[ISiddiqui]

The past isn't necessarily an excuse for the present, but it can provide context to better assess the qualities of the present.
Yep, that's it. I have no problem with people thinking that players who took steroids aren't worthy of respect. If you want to denegrate the stats in your mind, more power to you. However, because of the past, I think wiping the actual record book or asterisking things is utterly idiotic.

[HomerJSimpson]

Yep, that's it. I have no problem with people thinking that players who took steroids aren't worthy of respect. If you want to denegrate the stats in your mind, more power to you. However, because of the past, I think wiping the actual record book or asterisking things is utterly idiotic.


Completely agree.

[KWhit]

....the probability that most people are overstating the impact steroids have had on the recent offensive surge in the game.
And I believe that you, Arlie, and others are vastly understating the effect they have had on the game.

[Eaglesfan27]

Sounds like his lawyer advised him that the new steroid policy was probably going to get him. At his age, he might feel that he can't get himself back into playing shape quickly without the 'roids.

We're used to hearing about athletes recovering from surgery quickly - injuries that it would take a normal, healthy person forever to come back from. Bonds is now in the age range where even the workouts that professional athletes can take aren't going to do the job quickly. Steroids would allow him to push it more.

I'm torn on this. Years ago, I was on Bonds' side because he had to deal with so much undeserved crap from his playoff performances, and it did seem like he had a reason to be angry with the press. Now, knowing that the records are tainted and seeing him achieve a new level of obnoxious behavior, I'm finding it very hard to wish him well.

Well said. I agree completely.

[dawgfan]

And I believe that you, Arlie, and others are vastly understating the effect they have had on the game.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but consider these factors:

1. Up until the mid to late '80's, it not only was rare for players to undergo any kind of weight training, it was taboo - the conventional wisdom of the time was that lifting would reduce your flexibility. Since that time, thinking has changed to the point where now, the vast majority of players are lifting weights and getting stronger. In addition to the weight training, there has been a huge growth in the sophistication of dietary supplements and legal lifting supplements like Creatine.

2. The wave of new ballparks has resulted in smaller ballpark dimensions overall.

3. Hitting approaches have changed - strikeouts don't carry nearly as much stigma as they have before, and players are more apt to swing for the fences than before as the Earl Weaver school of baseball has supplanted the go-go Whitey Herzog school of little ball.

4. Strike zones have been shrinking.

These are all major factors. Other factors to consider:

5. The advent of aluminum bats in H.S. and college has altered the approach of pitchers in those levels, making pitching inside less of an advantage and giving some pitchers bad habits.

6. The advent of body armor for hitters and the general reduction in the willingness of pitchers to pitch inside has allowed batters to effectively reduce the strike zone further by allowing them to crowd the plate like never before.

7. Wooden bat technology has also advanced to where modern bats are said to be harder. Most batters have also gone to very light bats, and bat design is putting more of that weight in the barrel of the bat and away from the handle.

When you weigh all these factors, any additional benefit that steroids have given hitters above and beyond what they've been able to accomplish through weight training and legal supplements would seem to be quite small in the overall scheme of things. Especially if you give credence to the talk that pitchers have been just as likely, if not more so to be users than hitters, which would seem to level the playing field.

I think a good analogy to the uproar over steroids affecting the game is the uproar some give to the amount of money the U.S. gives in foreign aid - there's a lot of hot air over the subject, but ultimately it has very little overall effect on the budget. I think steroids have made a bigger dent on baseball outcomes, but not by much.

[Arles]

Arles is an athlete apologist on every issue.

CBAs, drug testing policies, media interaction, fan interaction, etc. With every single issue he tries to deflect criticism from the player(s). He's consistent, I'll give him that.
I think it's because everyone is so anti-athlete :cool:

Athough, I don't remember supporting athletes in regards to the CBA or fan interaction. Still, I think we (as a society) hold athletes in such high morale regard - it's quite amazing. We don't do that for actors or singers, just athletes. A rapper goes out and pulls a gun out and pistol whips some bouncer - he gets street credit. An actor gets so hyped up on heroine and goes into rehab - he's a hero. A singer drops acid and sings about bumble bees - he's a genius.

But if an athlete isn't nice to the media or gets involved with drugs - throw them down the river. It's just an interesting parallel that I haven't ever really understood.

All that said, I have no problem with people knocking athletes for taking steroids. As others have said in this thread, my point is to keep this in context with other baseball players when showing indignation. But, hey, I can understand if someone loses respect for McGwire and Bonds.

[KWhit]

A rapper goes out and pulls a gun out and pistol whips some bouncer - he gets street credit. An actor gets so hyped up on heroine and goes into rehab - he's a hero. A singer drops acid and sings about bumble bees - he's a genius.
You're kidding, right?

I'm sure Michael Jackson is glad to hear that.

[Huckleberry]

I think it's because everyone is so anti-athlete :cool:

Athough, I don't remember supporting athletes in regards to the CBA or fan interaction. Still, I think we (as a society) hold athletes in such high morale regard - it's quite amazing. We don't do that for actors or singers, just athletes. A rapper goes out and pulls a gun out and pistol whips some bouncer - he gets street credit. An actor gets so hyped up on heroine and goes into rehab - he's a hero. A singer drops acid and sings about bumble bees - he's a genius.

But if an athlete isn't nice to the media or gets involved with drugs - throw them down the river. It's just an interesting parallel that I haven't ever really understood.I don't understand it, either. I don't agree on the actor thing. They get to do their job, still, though.

The difference is that those guys aren't doing something that gives them an unfair advantage in their chosen field. And athletic competition is different than entertainment. The complaints about professional wrestlers using steroids didn't last very long. Now they're just acknowledged as drugged up actors.

But our real sports are supposed to be different. Athletes are supposed to represent the ideal human form. It didn't start with us. Clearly the standard was alive and well in ancient Greece and perhaps earlier.

[Chubby]

Stating upfront that I haven't and won't read through the entire thread.

All I can say is HA-HA (in a Nelson voice) to Bonds. now that he can't have the recuperative powers of the juice, he's falling apart. Boo hoo for him.

As for "people should be able to put whatever they want into their bodies", sure they can but the league has every right to say that they can't put certain substances in their bodies to maintain a level playing field and to look out for the players' health (since you know they aren't looking longterm, steroids is an example)

[Arles]

I don't understand it, either. I don't agree on the actor thing. They get to do their job, still, though.

The difference is that those guys aren't doing something that gives them an unfair advantage in their chosen field.
Then why don't we have a big problem with the large amounts of plastic surgery and nepitism that occurs in getting ahead with regards to hollywood? Both certainly give actors an "unfair advantage".

[Chubby]

Then why don't we have a big problem with the large amounts of plastic surgery and nepitism that occurs in getting ahead with regards to hollywood? Both certainly give actors an "unfair advantage".

Looking good does not mean you're a better actor. It may get you more roles, but doesn't equate to success (box office $)

[Arles]

Looking good does not mean you're a better actor. It may get you more roles, but doesn't equate to success (box office $)
Being strong doesn't mean your a good hitter. Look at Ozzie Canseco ;)

[Chubby]

Being strong doesn't mean your a good hitter. Look at Ozzie Canseco ;)
this is the biggest misconception about steroids and baseball. They don't take them for stremgth alone. They take them for the recuperative affects. Big Mac not breaking down till he stopped taking andro is just one example. Yes roids help a little with bat speed and no they don't help with hand eye but if you can play 162 games at full strength instead of 80 or whatever then that is a BIG advantage.

[Arles]

I agree Chubby, and that's one of the reason I group things like Greenies and Cortizone in with steroids on the "serious" meter. But, my comment was in regards to the actor parallel. It doesn't bother us if some chick gets plastic surgery to get more acting bids and uses that exposure to make more money than maybe her natural talent should afford (ie, Pam Anderson). Yet, it does bother us if a star sports player uses performance enhancing drugs. Doesn't that seem a little odd?

[Chubby]

I agree Chubby, and that's one of the reason I group things like Greenies and Cortizone in with steroids on the "serious" meter. But, my comment was in regards to the actor parallel. It doesn't bother us if some chick gets plastic surgery to get more acting bids and uses that exposure to make more money than maybe her natural talent should afford (ie, Pam Anderson). Yet, it does bother us if a star sports player uses performance enhancing drugs. Doesn't that seem a little odd?
To me no. How many oscars does Pam have? :D To me, having plastic surgery doesn't equal good actor/actress. Some people may define it by how much money an actor recieves but I don't.

Is it right that society values Pam Anderson more than Joe Smith the doctor that saves lives everyday?

[Arles]

To me no. How many oscars does Pam have? :D
While I think she was robbed on a few instances, none ;)

To me, having plastic surgery doesn't equal good actor/actress. Some people may define it by how much money an actor recieves but I don't.
How would you qualify success then? If you use Oscars, then Cuba Gooding Jr is a bigger star than Arnold. Not sure I agree there ;)

[Huckleberry]

Then why don't we have a big problem with the large amounts of plastic surgery and nepitism that occurs in getting ahead with regards to hollywood? Both certainly give actors an "unfair advantage".
Nepotism is alive and well in athletics.

And the parallel is no good because we don't expect casting in movies to be based purely on individual talent, skill, and execution. We know that it is frequently based on favoritism and superficial qualities.

We don't want the same thing in our sports. Generally speaking.

[Chubby]

While I think she was robbed on a few instances, none ;)


How would you qualify success then? If you use Oscars, then Cuba Gooding Jr is a bigger star than Arnold. Not sure I agree there ;)
I guess I would qualify it as

my impression of the performance > major awards > box office draw > salary


since my personaly impression of a performace can vary greatly from someone elses', it's easier to list major awards (oscars, globes, etc) as evidence of good acting.

[Buccaneer]

I'm assuming exaggeration on your part, but do you really think medical advances will decidedly favor hitters? The balance of power in baseball has always shifted back in forth between hitters and pitchers. Baseball had an even greater offensive explosion in the '30's than is happening now, but the pendulum eventually swung back in the other direction leading to the pitching extreme of 1968.
Yes, most definitely (in favoring the hitters). It creates Power Baseball which puts more fannies in the seats and eyeballs on the screen. Just like the other sports have gone to power and violence and away from finesse and sportsmanship, baseball had the furthest to go to catch up. MLB, MLBPA, etc. knew what it was doing to recover from 1994 and to bring the sport into the 21st century. It may have had too much of a short term view.

[Buccaneer]

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2018994)

ESPN Link. "You wanted me to jump off the bridge, I finally have jumped. You wanted the bring me down, you've finally brought me and my family down. Finally done it. From everybody, all of you. So now go pick a different person. I'm done. Do the best I can, that's about it."
You know, I read something just like this 10 years ago from Bonds (I think it was a TSN article). He talked about when his playing days were over, he would forever leave baseball because it never did anything for him but to cause him grief. He's just re-iterating the same attitude he has had for some time, so this can't be news.

[dawgfan]

Yes, most definitely (in favoring the hitters). It creates Power Baseball which puts more fannies in the seats and eyeballs on the screen. Just like the other sports have gone to power and violence and away from finesse and sportsmanship, baseball had the furthest to go to catch up. MLB, MLBPA, etc. knew what it was doing to recover from 1994 and to bring the sport into the 21st century. It may have had too much of a short term view.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but I think there comes a time when some limits are imposed. Fans like the homerun ball, and they enjoyed the McGwire/Sosa race and then the Bonds race, but I don't think people are interested in seeing hitting get so far ahead of pitching that baseball turns into a glorified version of slow-pitch softball with 25-15 scores the norm.

I suppose it's possible that the offensive growth could slowly continue to evolve upward to where in 50 years guys are hitting over 100 HR a year, but I have my doubts - I think that baseball fans have some appreciation for history and having results that fit within historical patterns. While the pendulum has swung in favor of hitters again, I doubt we'll see it swing much further in that direction.

[Jesse_Ewiak]

Bitching about Barry being on the juice is ludicrous unless you are going to bitch about every other baseball player on earth the past 5 to 10 years. Somehow Giambi gets off the hook because he "came clean? He still collected nice checks.

Dumb Americans - we love to forgive anyone. Barry is a bright guy and honestly that you all hate him because he is a dick to the press is laughable. We'd hate him if he actually gave interviews and said

1) "its a team game" "we take it one game at a time" "other rehashed platitude/cliche here"

2) what is really on his mind

Further, the guy just isn't your average ballplayer, mentally. Yes, he's a brusque asshole. But you know what, when all the guys go out drinking or to the titty bar or worse, he goes home, works out and chills with his kids.

Yes, he uses/used steroids. Yes, he's a dick. But, he's a fucking baseball player - he isn't the President, he isn't a schoolteacher and he isn't a bus driver so stop expecting him to behave certain ways.

[Chubby]

I must have missed the posts ecusing Giambi and everyone else... oh wait they aren't there.

God forbid we expect him to not lie, play by the rules, and follow the law.

[dawgfan]

God forbid we expect him to not lie, play by the rules, and follow the law.

You must have issues with a sizeable percentage of past baseball stars then...

[stevew]

I remember reading an article stating how at one point Wade Boggs had lost some vision in his eyes, instead of having his normal 20/10 vision, it had fallen to only 20/20. Then he got contacts which corrected his vision back to the original 20/10. Now is it "cheating" to get contact lenses that would make your vision better than "perfect?"

[Chubby]

You must have issues with a sizeable percentage of past baseball stars then...
There's a big difference between say stealing signs and using steroids.

[Chubby]

I remember reading an article stating how at one point Wade Boggs had lost some vision in his eyes, instead of having his normal 20/10 vision, it had fallen to only 20/20. Then he got contacts which corrected his vision back to the original 20/10. Now is it "cheating" to get contact lenses that would make your vision better than "perfect?"
Is possession of contacts against the law?

[HomerJSimpson]

Is possession of contacts against the law?


These tracks are well worn.

If these people took these arguements into everyday life:
If someone got away with speeding would be equal to someone getting away with murder;

If their employer doesn't make a rule not to steal, then it would not be "cheating," they couldn't fire them, they still should be named "employee of the month," and the employer would be more to blame than the employee since the employer didn't tell them not to break the law;

If you take a vitamin it would be exactly the same as smoking crack;

If you take a medication under a doctor supervision for a medical condition then it is the same thing as buying it illegally off the street and giving it to yourself.

What a wonderful world we'd live in.

[dawgfan]

There's a big difference between say stealing signs and using steroids.

You've already said you didn't read most of the thread, so I'll be nice and recap: we're not talking about stealing signs here, we're talking about things like the widespread use of "greenies" aka amphetamines by players from the '50's up through the early '80's, including allegations players such as Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron and other huge stars were users.

We don't know exactly how much use/abuse of speed improved their performance (much like we don't know exactly how much use of steroids/et all has helped current players) but the presumption is the same - players were using this on the assumption it was helping their performance.

We also know that players throughout the history of the game have cheated in the form of pitchers/catchers scuffing the baseball or adding mud/spit/vaseline to it, and batters corking their bats.

In the old days, guys like Ty Cobb would wear long, sharpened spikes on his shoes and used them as a weapon to discourage fielders from getting in his way when he approached a base for fear of being speared or spiked.

These were all things that were either illegal, against the rules or unethical (or some combination of all three) that boosted performance.