Mets - Reds

[MizzouRah]

Watching bits and pieces of this game. Is Carlos Beltran one of the greatest hitters in baseball right now or what? Jeez... 2nd at bat of the season, 3 run bomb, Hello!


Todd

[Balldog]

GABP is a hitter's ballpark.

[JeeberD]

Beltran is nothing compared to Dimitri Young... ;)

[Ksyrup]

That's right - Beltran's half the HR hitter Young is.

Well, certainly Young's twice the eater Beltran is.

[VPI97]

Beltran is nothing compared to Dimitri Young... ;) Adam Dunn, too :)

[MizzouRah]

I miss ol Dimitri. :(

I'll take him in LF and Detroit can have Reggie Sanders.


Todd

[Poli]

Watching bits and pieces of this game. Is Carlos Beltran one of the greatest hitters in baseball right now or what? Jeez... 2nd at bat of the season, 3 run bomb, Hello!


Todd
Cardinals, fool. Cardinals. You are a Cardinals fan.

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... Pedro struck out 8 out of 9 batters since letting up a 3 run HR to Dunn in the 1st inning (showing both sides, I guess).

[ISiddiqui]

Make that 11 out of 12 since the Dunn HR :eek:

[Jets80]

Beltran homer was a 2-run homer, Kaz hit a solo homer for the other run.

Watching bits and pieces of this game. Is Carlos Beltran one of the greatest hitters in baseball right now or what? Jeez... 2nd at bat of the season, 3 run bomb, Hello!


Todd

[ice4277]

Dmitri Young=Greatest Player in Baseball History :D

[st.cronin]

Dmitri Young is on a 400+ homer pace.

[JeeberD]

Yup. Make that three times the player that Beltran is... :)

[TLK]

I'd think Dimitri Young has to be the front-runner for AL MYP....:)

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... Cliff Floyd is actually healthy... and whatdayaknow, he hits a HR.

[RendeR]

Fucking Reds Pitching staff......

[Scoobz0202]

Oh but Eric Milton is our savior... it's all good.


:)

[ISiddiqui]

Don't worry, the Mets bullpen is up. They'll give you the lead back :rolleyes:

[paperstreetsoap]

Fucking Reds Pitching staff......
Oh how shit just never changes.. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/mad.gifhttp://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

[ISiddiqui]

Don't worry, the Mets bullpen is up. They'll give you the lead back :rolleyes:
Told you... well tie game, not the lead... yet.

[SunDevil]

Someone said something about the Mets bullpen? :)

[paperstreetsoap]

Adam Dunn, too :)
this actually makes sense now, as he hits his 2nd HR of the night to tie it in the bottom of the 9th!

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[ISiddiqui]

Well Looper just lost the game for the Mets.

[paperstreetsoap]

BALLGAME!

JOE F'N RANDA!

REDS 1-0!!

[VPI97]

DUNN!!!

[SunDevil]

ouch

[ISiddiqui]

What is this a World Series Game for the Reds? Breaking out the big fonts and everything? ;)

[SunDevil]

Hey, its the new season, people have to make sure the big fonts still work. :)

[VPI97]

YES!!!

[TazFTW]

Gotta love the Mets.

[paperstreetsoap]

VPI, you live in ATL, did you get a chance to watch the game or just via ESPN Gamcast or something?

[RendeR]

REDS WIN REDS WIN REDS WIN!!!!!!!

[VPI97]

Just like every other opening day, I took the afternoon off to watch the Reds...but this time, I spent half the game on the phone with my brother who had seats in right field. Best opening day ever.

[paperstreetsoap]

so how did you watch, is what i'm saying. surely they don't show mets/reds on foxsports net in atlanta, do they?

i agree - great opening day

[SunDevil]

It was on ESPN

[VPI97]

so how did you watch, is what i'm saying. surely they don't show mets/reds on foxsports net in atlanta, do they?

i agree - great opening day ESPN

[damnMikeBrown]

Geez, I leave at the turn in the 9th to have a poop...and my GF starts screaming "Reds WIN, REDS WIN"...buh...damn me and my ill timed poopies!

[paperstreetsoap]

It was on ESPN
huh, just figured it'd be on the local sports networfk, didn't even check the big timer for a measely reds game. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TargetPractice6]

Yay go Reds! Maybe if they get on a roll this season they won't start sucking at the All Star break.

[VPI97]

huh, just figured it'd be on the local sports networfk, didn't even check the big timer for a measely reds game. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif For at least the past 10 years, Reds opening day games have been broadcast on ESPN. I'm guessing it's a way of apologizing for taking away our traditional 'first game of the season' designation.

[MizzouRah]

Ok Jeebs, the Stros are going down tomorrow!!

:)


Todd

[weinstein7]

I saw this one in a bar (fuck you Cablevision) from beginning to end. I have to say that despite the 12 Ks, I was not particularly impressed with Pedro. He had great control and great movement, but his velocity seemed low, and, well, most of the Reds' hitters looked undisciplined. I'm not sure if it was Pedro making them look this way, or they're just not that good, but I'm leaning towards the latter. Also, it's the first game of the year, and I suspect when the hitters heat up, they'll be teeing off on some of those pitchers. I'd like to see him be a little less cute and come after guys a bit more, since that pitch count was out of control.

As for Beltran, a very mixed game. A homer and 3 RBIs, but he also got picked off which cost the team a run and dropped a fly ball which cost another one.

Reyes turned a routine single into a double, which was very good to see. Manny Aybar looked like garbage, but the Korean guy who worked the 8th looked pretty good. Looper obviously did not, but I'm not TOO worried about him.

Adam Dunn is just such a presence in the batter's box. He's one of those guys that you can take one look at and you know you just don't want anything to do with him. The pitch he hit out in the first was not only a bad pitch, but a bad decision by Pedro to go after him with an empty base.

[JeeberD]

Ok Jeebs, the Stros are going down tomorrow!!

:)


Todd


I can't wait to see Oswalt shut y'all down! :p

[Crim]

I have to say that despite the 12 Ks, I was not particularly impressed with Pedro.

Idunno, I didn't watch the game, but I must say I found this hysterical.



Crim

[TroyF]

Wow... Cliff Floyd is actually healthy... and whatdayaknow, he hits a HR.

I looked at the box score and thought it was a misprint.

Both Ken Griffey Jr. and Cliff Floyd were healthy on the same day on the same field? I'm in shock.

[ISiddiqui]

Idunno, I didn't watch the game, but I must say I found this hysterical.
I saw the game and I thought it hysterical. It may be that Reds hitters suck, but Pedro looked DOMINENT after the 1st inning. I was really impressed with him from the 1st inning on to when he was pulled. The bullpen, on the other hand... :rolleyes:

[weinstein7]

I saw the game and I thought it hysterical. It may be that Reds hitters suck, but Pedro looked DOMINENT after the 1st inning. I was really impressed with him from the 1st inning on to when he was pulled. The bullpen, on the other hand... :rolleyes:

I had a feeling not too many people would agree with me on this one. I really just felt that it was more a matter of undisciplined and confused batters than great pitching. The only really "dominant" K, to me, was the one of Randa after Dunn's first homer. The rest of the time he looked like John Franco to me...great control and movement, so that young undisciplined hitters have no chance, but I just don't think that kind of stuff will work against the Braves or other teams with quality hitters.

The bigger problem though, is that I think we'd both agree that Pedro won't be much better than he was today, and that was still only good enough for six innings, which just isn't acceptable from a staff "ace," especially when you have no bullpen and your other starters are dropping like flies.

[ISiddiqui]

Perhaps the Reds were undisciplined hitters, but they were made to look very foolish. I think that teams with better hitters, like St. Louis and Philadelphia won't have that much more success against Pedro.

And I think the 6 innings was only an Opening Day limit. They didn't want him going too far this early in the season. I don't think that will continue to be the case. I think he could have easily gone another inning the way he was pitching and maybe two.

[weinstein7]

I thought he looked like he was starting to tire in the 6th. But I'm probably looking at everything regarding him through a very negative lens because I thought it was a stupid signing from the beginning.

Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

[McSweeny]

I had a feeling not too many people would agree with me on this one. I really just felt that it was more a matter of undisciplined and confused batters than great pitching. The only really "dominant" K, to me, was the one of Randa after Dunn's first homer. The rest of the time he looked like John Franco to me...great control and movement, so that young undisciplined hitters have no chance, but I just don't think that kind of stuff will work against the Braves or other teams with quality hitters.

The bigger problem though, is that I think we'd both agree that Pedro won't be much better than he was today, and that was still only good enough for six innings, which just isn't acceptable from a staff "ace," especially when you have no bullpen and your other starters are dropping like flies.

i watched every Pedro start for the last 7 years, and i can say that it was him making the Reds look foolish. That's why he is so damn good. He'll give you 110-120 pitches everytime out and 9 times out of 10 he'll put you in a position to win the game. His changeup was outstanding today. That's his pitch. Sure, he'll get shelled once in awhile, but don't forget this is not the inhuman Pedro of the 285 ERA+. I'd imagine he'll contend for the Cy Young if that horrible bullpen doesn't blow everyone of his games.

And contrary to what the media says, he has far more trouble with his first 15-20 pitches than he does when he hits the magical 105 pitch count.

And you should enjoy the days when Pedro makes the other team look foolish. When he's on, he is simply amazing to watch.

[VPI97]

I had a feeling not too many people would agree with me on this one. I really just felt that it was more a matter of undisciplined and confused batters than great pitching. The only really "dominant" K, to me, was the one of Randa after Dunn's first homer. The rest of the time he looked like John Franco to me...great control and movement, so that young undisciplined hitters have no chance, but I just don't think that kind of stuff will work against the Braves or other teams with quality hitters. People aren't going to agree with you because if you know the National League, you know that hitting is the one thing that the Reds do well. Dunn has a strikeout problem, but as a team, they've been one of the better lineups in the NL for the past few years. You seem to have characterized them as a bunch of minor leaguers, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

[kingfc22]

Dmitri Young is on a 400+ homer pace.
ROIDS

[weinstein7]

People aren't going to agree with you because if you know the National League, you know that hitting is the one thing that the Reds do well. Dunn has a strikeout problem, but as a team, they've been one of the better lineups in the NL for the past few years. You seem to have characterized them as a bunch of minor leaguers, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm not really trying to pass judgement on the Reds. It was the first game of the season, and hitters often haven't yet found their timing. Plus many of these hitters hadn't faced Pedro before, so that would have added to the problems.

All I'm saying is that going into the season I expected Pedro to be good, but not great, and that he would be basically a six-inning pitcher, and that nothing happened today that makes me think he'll be better than that.

[ISiddiqui]

People aren't going to agree with you because if you know the National League, you know that hitting is the one thing that the Reds do well. Dunn has a strikeout problem, but as a team, they've been one of the better lineups in the NL for the past few years. You seem to have characterized them as a bunch of minor leaguers, but that couldn't be further from the truth.
To be fair, the Reds as a TEAM do strike out a lot. They had the highest strike out total in the majors and they and Milwaukee were much higher than #3 on the list. The team has great power however and draws plenty of walks (which is interesting having that many K's)

[jetpunk2000]

I saw this one in a bar (fuck you Cablevision) from beginning to end. I have to say that despite the 12 Ks, I was not particularly impressed with Pedro. He had great control and great movement, but his velocity seemed low, and, well, most of the Reds' hitters looked undisciplined. I'm not sure if it was Pedro making them look this way, or they're just not that good, but I'm leaning towards the latter. Also, it's the first game of the year, and I suspect when the hitters heat up, they'll be teeing off on some of those pitchers. I'd like to see him be a little less cute and come after guys a bit more, since that pitch count was out of control.

As for Beltran, a very mixed game. A homer and 3 RBIs, but he also got picked off which cost the team a run and dropped a fly ball which cost another one.

Reyes turned a routine single into a double, which was very good to see. Manny Aybar looked like garbage, but the Korean guy who worked the 8th looked pretty good. Looper obviously did not, but I'm not TOO worried about him.

Adam Dunn is just such a presence in the batter's box. He's one of those guys that you can take one look at and you know you just don't want anything to do with him. The pitch he hit out in the first was not only a bad pitch, but a bad decision by Pedro to go after him with an empty base.

Are you kidding me about Pedro? John Franco?!?! He was up at 91-94 all day. He hit 93 on his 100th pitch. His changeup made everyone look silly. For you to say he was unimpressive is just strange. Plus, you're unimpressed with Pedro, but not worried about Looper? What has Looper done at all to impress you? He was terrible in the second half last year, and worse this spring. Today was a continuation of that, and was the sole cause for probably the worst loss this team has had in a very long time. I'd be very scared of his makeup in a pressure spot. And, if you're going to get on Pedro for throwing a mistake pitch in the first inning, why aren't you all over Looper for throwing the exact same pitch in the exact same spot to the exact same batter in a game altering situation? As for Beltran, the guy went 3-5 with a game tying HR and the go ahead RBI. The "drop" was on a tough play that he had to run a long way to even get to and would have had it if he hadn't tripped on the warning track dirt. I didn't see the CS, but I heard it on the radio and it sounded like someone missed a sign. Beltran must've been looking for hit and run because as soon as Piazza didn't swing, Beltran stopped dead in his tracks. Something tells me you were one of the people unimpressed with these signings and are going to be hard to convince otherwise no matter what happens.

[MizzouRah]

I say the Mets win the division easily.


Todd

[weinstein7]

Are you kidding me about Pedro? John Franco?!?! He was up at 91-94 all day. He hit 93 on his 100th pitch. His changeup made everyone look silly. For you to say he was unimpressive is just strange. Plus, you're unimpressed with Pedro, but not worried about Looper? What has Looper done at all to impress you? He was terrible in the second half last year, and worse this spring. Today was a continuation of that, and was the sole cause for probably the worst loss this team has had in a very long time. I'd be very scared of his makeup in a pressure spot. And, if you're going to get on Pedro for throwing a mistake pitch in the first inning, why aren't you all over Looper for throwing the exact same pitch in the exact same spot to the exact same batter in a game altering situation? As for Beltran, the guy went 3-5 with a game tying HR and the go ahead RBI. The "drop" was on a tough play that he had to run a long way to even get to and would have had it if he hadn't tripped on the warning track dirt. I didn't see the CS, but I heard it on the radio and it sounded like someone missed a sign. Beltran must've been looking for hit and run because as soon as Piazza didn't swing, Beltran stopped dead in his tracks. Something tells me you were one of the people unimpressed with these signings and are going to be hard to convince otherwise no matter what happens.


Was he really that high? The sound wasn't on, and it didn't "look" that fast to me, but I could be wrong.

As for Looper, I'm not sure what to expect from him. To be honest, I thought that he would lose the closer's job by mid-season last year, but he was outstanding most of the year. I'd like to think that he just didn't have it today, but time will tell.

As for Beltran. Both your points are right on. There was something fishy about that caught stealing, and it was a very difficult play in the outfield (however, he did have his glove on it). If the Mets win the game, those two plays are probably never mentioned again. But they didn't. And for a team that has a history of finding ways to lose, I don't think it's a good sign that the prized acquisition is following this trend.

For what it's worth, you're right that I didn't like the Pedro signing and that I'm probably biased against him. I LOVED the Beltran acquisition, although I think expectations are too high for him. But really, after everything the Mets have been through the last dozen years or so, how can you NOT be skeptical about every big-money acquisition?

[jetpunk2000]

Was he really that high? The sound wasn't on, and it didn't "look" that fast to me, but I could be wrong.

As for Looper, I'm not sure what to expect from him. To be honest, I thought that he would lose the closer's job by mid-season last year, but he was outstanding most of the year. I'd like to think that he just didn't have it today, but time will tell.

As for Beltran. Both your points are right on. There was something fishy about that caught stealing, and it was a very difficult play in the outfield (however, he did have his glove on it). If the Mets win the game, those two plays are probably never mentioned again. But they didn't. And for a team that has a history of finding ways to lose, I don't think it's a good sign that the prized acquisition is following this trend.

For what it's worth, you're right that I didn't like the Pedro signing and that I'm probably biased against him. I LOVED the Beltran acquisition, although I think expectations are too high for him. But really, after everything the Mets have been through the last dozen years or so, how can you NOT be skeptical about every big-money acquisition?
Agreed that it's tough not to be skeptical, but I've waited too long for opening day to come to be a pessimist already. I'll wait until the end of April for that. ;)

[Ksyrup]

i watched every Pedro start for the last 7 years, and i can say that it was him making the Reds look foolish. That's why he is so damn good. He'll give you 110-120 pitches everytime out and 9 times out of 10 he'll put you in a position to win the game.

Uh...I think Grady Little would tell you that Pedro is only good for about 100-105 pitches, tops. Regardless of how dominant he still is, the guy's basically a 6 inning pitcher now, which is why the Sox were smart not to pay him $13M a year for 4 years. There's value to being able to pitch 7-8 innings on a consistent basis, even if it comes at the price of giving up a couple additional runs here and there. He'll still have his moments, but he's no longer a true ace. A guy making $13M a year shouldn't just "put his team in a position" to win, he should damn near hand them the game on a silver platter. When Pedro has to rely on his bullpen to complete the remaining 1/3 of the game, he isn't really doing the job they're paying him all that money to do.

[TroyF]

Uh...I think Grady Little would tell you that Pedro is only good for about 100-105 pitches, tops. Regardless of how dominant he still is, the guy's basically a 6 inning pitcher now, which is why the Sox were smart not to pay him $13M a year for 4 years. There's value to being able to pitch 7-8 innings on a consistent basis, even if it comes at the price of giving up a couple additional runs here and there. He'll still have his moments, but he's no longer a true ace. A guy making $13M a year shouldn't just "put his team in a position" to win, he should damn near hand them the game on a silver platter. When Pedro has to rely on his bullpen to complete the remaining 1/3 of the game, he isn't really doing the job they're paying him all that money to do.


I didn't like the signing either, but I think a bit too much is being made of Pedro just being a 6 inning pitcher.

Looking at the stats from last year, he threw 7+ innings in 2/3 of his starts last year. (22/33) Schilling did it 75% of the time. (24/32) Jason Schmidt did it in 22 of his 32 starts.

Clemens won his last two Cy Youngs pitching at about the same inning per start clip Pedro did last year.

Are those extra two or three 7 inning starts the difference between 13 and 10 million? I dunno. I think that all depends on just how dominant Pedro is. If his numbers look like they did from 1999-2003, I don't think the innings issue is that huge.

If they look closer to that 3.90 ERA from last year it makes the difference.

[Ksyrup]

He's one year older, and more importantly, will be 2-3 years older 2-3 years into the contract. I think his sub-2.50 ERA days are long gone, and you're looking at a guy with a mid-3 ERA. Not bad, but it's only going to get worse. Look at yesterday - dominant, yet he came out of the game with a 4.50 ERA. I suspect that is going to be the rule, not the exception like it used to be.

Not to mention, between '99 and '03, he didn't start more than 30 games in one season, and last year was the first time he's pitched more than 200 innings since 2000. The most noticeable difference between last year's number and prior year's is the HR. He gave up 26 last year, way more than he has in any year since 1998. And I don't think he's quite the pitcher he was in 1998 to be able to consistently overcome that many HRs. And what got him yesterday? The HR.

[Balldog]

Don't discount the fact that GABP is a homer friendly park.

I am pretty sure the Reds lead the league in strikeouts last year.

And its just one game.

I agree, Pedro isn't the same as he was in '98 but he is still capable of being one of the top pitchers any given day.

[RendeR]

Pedro was unreal yesterday, however his record is going to suffer immensly from a pathetic Mets Bullpen.

[Ksyrup]

I hope they overpay for Urbina...

[st.cronin]

I don't know about the Mess winning the division, but I think Pedro's gotta be even money for an era champ ... put him down for like 1.66 in that park.

That's assuming, of course, that he can pitch the requisite minimum innings.

[ISiddiqui]

I didn't like the signing either, but I think a bit too much is being made of Pedro just being a 6 inning pitcher.

Looking at the stats from last year, he threw 7+ innings in 2/3 of his starts last year. (22/33) Schilling did it 75% of the time. (24/32) Jason Schmidt did it in 22 of his 32 starts.

Clemens won his last two Cy Youngs pitching at about the same inning per start clip Pedro did last year.

Are those extra two or three 7 inning starts the difference between 13 and 10 million? I dunno. I think that all depends on just how dominant Pedro is. If his numbers look like they did from 1999-2003, I don't think the innings issue is that huge.

If they look closer to that 3.90 ERA from last year it makes the difference.
Great analysis! Also remember Pedro goes from the AL to the NL, which means at least once ever 3 innings he faces the pitcher (barring pinch hitters, of course). That will add innings to his bottom line.

[kurtism]

Just to dispel a myth, GAB has not proven to be a hitters ballpark. In fact, the stats from 2003 indicated it was a neutral park, and 2004's Park Factors indicate that GAB was a pitcher's park. Small sample size so far, but all evidence to date indicates the opposite of what appears to be the common perception. (Information taken from http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/attend.shtml - the Park Factor column to the far right).

[Ksyrup]

I don't have a hard time believing it's just the Reds' pitching staff.

[Bearcat729]

Just to dispel a myth, GAB has not proven to be a hitters ballpark. In fact, the stats from 2003 indicated it was a neutral park, and 2004's Park Factors indicate that GAB was a pitcher's park. Small sample size so far, but all evidence to date indicates the opposite of what appears to be the common perception. (Information taken from http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/attend.shtml - the Park Factor column to the far right).


So your saying it's all Jimmy Haynes fault?

[EagleFan]

Watching bits and pieces of this game. Is Carlos Beltran one of the greatest hitters in baseball right now or what? Jeez... 2nd at bat of the season, 3 run bomb, Hello!


Todd


One HR makes him one of the best current hitters? He hit .260 something last season, that doesn't exactly qualify as one of the best hitters.

[Johnny93g]

I wonder if a Jays-Rays thread would get to 2 pages

[ISiddiqui]

One HR makes him one of the best current hitters? He hit .260 something last season, that doesn't exactly qualify as one of the best hitters.
Look at his OBP and SLG. His OPS+ was 136, which isn't bad at all.

[Ksyrup]

I wonder if a Jays-Rays thread would get to 2 pages
Only if someone mentioned Tim Johnson.

[MizzouRah]

Look at his OBP and SLG. His OPS+ was 136, which isn't bad at all.

Exactly. In fact, in the playoffs is where he really showed his ability to carry a team on his back.

I'm just saying from a pure hitter's standpoint, the guy has talent.


Todd

[weinstein7]

Bump.

I almost posted this after Pedro's last start, but I have no choice now.

To everyone who told me I was crazy for ragging on Pedro....you were right!

I still have my doubts about the 4-year contract, and I don't know how well he'll old up over the course of the season, but right now, between the results and the energy he's creating, no room at all for complaints.

Except one. I WANT TO WATCH THE GAMES! Screw you Cablevision!

[ISiddiqui]

Yah, so far this year, Pedro's been worth every penny. That 2-hitter CG against the Braves kick started the Mets... now it's 6 straight wins in a row.

[paperstreetsoap]

ryan wagner should be the reds' closer. he is nasty

[General Mike]

Tom Glavine is done.