FM2005 and Coaches/Scouts

[Shepp]

I was wondering if any of the FM players here can give me their two cents on the usefulness of the scouting and the coaches input as it stands in the current version?

I have read over in the SI Forum that it is a known issue where the "Assistant Manger Report" and asking the Assistant Manager to pick your roster is a known bug.

How big an impact is this on someone who really doesn't know that much about picking quality players themselves? :confused:

[MikeVick7]

I know there "used" to be an issue with that, but with the new patch I really don't have a problem with the players that the asst manager suggests as starters. Also, they asst manager is not as tough as he used to be when attempting to sign a new player. It seemed like they always said that signing this player would be useless, but now if the player is legit they will come back with feedback like, "So and so sees this player as a useful first team player...etc."

[Anthony]

wow, i must not be playing w/ the new patch, cuz a lot of the guys i want to sign my scouts/assistant maniger will say are useless. do i have to start a whole new career over or can i install mid-career?

[FrogMan]

there indeed was an issue with scouts/coaches/assistant managers thinking everybody was crap and they would not recommend signing anybody, thus not allowing your team board to "unlock" the funds to make a decent offer, even to a world class player. This has been fixed to a pretty decent degree with the most recent patch.

Hell Atlantic, I'm still playing my initial career, started the day I received my copy of the game, some 2 weeks after it was released. I have patched it twice since then and I've seen all the announced improvements take place in my game just fine. So go ahead, patch yours and keep playing your career if you want to.

FM

[Bee]

The team report from the Asst Manager is still pretty much useless. It's looks great and would have some nice info if it were more accurate. I'm hoping this is addressed in the next version since I love the concept.

[Anthony]

ahhhhh...i always wondered why i could never agree with the team report. it seems like it'd be a great way to quickly see who your best players are and who fits best where. i like the concept too.

[Galaxy]

I'm going to launch a new career. Any advice on what are "must have" countries?

I will play: Spain, England, Italy, Germany, Greece, France, Portugal, Scotland, Netherlands. I will likely go with about 18-20 leagues here. I'll likelu look at adding 5-7 more countries from the premier leagues. Any suggestions on what to include? I want to get the best of the remainder of Europe, with the top teams that are competitive in European Competition play and have a strong reputation.

Outside of Europe, Brazil, Argentina and the US will get nods (just the top leagues only). Any other countries outside of Europe worthy of including, for offering deep pools of quality talent, with national-team type players (why include them if I can't get them to pass in Europe?).

[daedalus]

What about Sweden? They aren't likely to make much noise in Champion's League but have always been a solid provider of talent in my various games.

[Desnudo]

I'm going to launch a new career. Any advice on what are "must have" countries?

I will play: Spain, England, Italy, Germany, Greece, France, Portugal, Scotland, Netherlands. I will likely go with about 18-20 leagues here. I'll likelu look at adding 5-7 more countries from the premier leagues. Any suggestions on what to include? I want to get the best of the remainder of Europe, with the top teams that are competitive in European Competition play and have a strong reputation.

Outside of Europe, Brazil, Argentina and the US will get nods (just the top leagues only). Any other countries outside of Europe worthy of including, for offering deep pools of quality talent, with national-team type players (why include them if I can't get them to pass in Europe?).

Turkey, Mexico, Russia

[ice4277]

What about Sweden? They aren't likely to make much noise in Champion's League but have always been a solid provider of talent in my various games.
Agreed, I always make sure to have Sweden and The Netherlands selected, especially when playing in a lower English league, you can always find good talent at a value price.

[condors]

I usually go with having US, Mexico, Argentina and Brazil on for non Europe leagues.

[Galaxy]

Thnaks, I'll got three out of four, US, Argentina, Brazil...If I have enough leagues, Mexico may be added (all just the top leagues).

I'll likely add Turkey, Russia, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Israel, Switzerland and Belgium. Seems to all the remaining big-league clubs from Europe.

[Francis_Cole]

The team report from the Asst Manager is still pretty much useless. It's looks great and would have some nice info if it were more accurate

What do you disagree with? The players he is recommending ahead of other players? Or the players he says you should look out for in the future?

Fran

[Desnudo]

I think, with the latest patch, that the information is accurate, at least at the highest level of play. I'm sorry to say I don't see it as very useful though. More in-depth information on each player and position would help a lot.

[Eaglesfan27]

I think, with the latest patch, that the information is accurate, at least at the highest level of play. I'm sorry to say I don't see it as very useful though. More in-depth information on each player and position would help a lot.Agreed. It is nice as a basis to get to know your team just a bit though, but more information would make it much more useful.

[Bee]

The team report from the Asst Manager is still pretty much useless. It's looks great and would have some nice info if it were more accurate

What do you disagree with? The players he is recommending ahead of other players? Or the players he says you should look out for in the future?

Fran

A few problems that I've noticed...

1. The Asst Manager lists my backup goalkeeper as the weakest defender. Once he listed him as a midfielder calling him out as the weakest player in the midfield. Probably both were accurate if it wasn't for the fact that he's a keeper. hehe

2. The starting lineup he reports on usually doesn't match the starting lineup I'm using or the starting lineup that he suggests when I ask him to pick them. It would be nice if he were to report on the starters from the last match.

3. The assessments varies widely during the season. Do I go with his 2-star rating for my striker in December or the 5-star rating in October?

4. The overall advice is often off. Example: Midseason, I'm in first place leading the league in goals and he tells me he doesn't think the team can achieve a mid-table performance unless we strengthen our attack. Huh?

Now, that's not to say it's always wrong. Sometimes everything looks correct and matches my opinion as well. Of course, a broken clock is right twice a day too.

[QuikSand]

The team report from the Asst Manager is still pretty much useless. It's looks great and would have some nice info if it were more accurate

What do you disagree with? The players he is recommending ahead of other players? Or the players he says you should look out for in the future?

Fran

I, for one, have no claims to being an expert FM player -- but have the same frustration. One example -- with my current club, I have a fairly young striker who was just named my player of the year, and led my league in goals. Not a superstar, but certainly an adequate player, and clearly mymost reliable striker.

At various times, when checking the "team report" I have seen him either (1) slated as a second-teamer, (2) not even included among the top four strikers on the club, (3) indicated as a "weak link" on the club who will never be up to snuff, and (4) indicated as a first teamer. This was not, by the way, in sequence -- his evaluation did not improve as his performance became established. Rather, this seemed totally random -- two weeks time seems to completely change my Asst Mgr's opinion of pretty much everything about the side - he's a bum, he's so-so, he's a bum, he's our best player, he's a bum... and so forth.

My first look at this feature had me very impressed. My fifth look had me scratching my head (for the reasons above). Now, I completely ignore it, as I don't feel I can put any credence in what it says.


Hope that perspective helps.

[QuikSand]

(pretty much what Bee said)

[Eaglesfan27]

One thing I wonder about Bee's and Quiksand's experience is how good are your AM's in judging player current ability and potential. I had similar experiences when I was at Harrogate and even Wigan and had just ok Assistant Managers. However, once I got to Manchester United, Mr. Queiroz, has done a very good job of being consistent and fairly reliable when I use this feature.

Perhaps, there is too much variability at the AM's judging current and future potential?

[Desnudo]

One thing I wonder about Bee's and Quiksand's experience is how good are your AM's in judging player current ability and potential. I had similar experiences when I was at Harrogate and even Wigan and had just ok Assistant Managers. However, once I got to Manchester United, Mr. Queiroz, has done a very good job of being consistent and fairly reliable when I use this feature.

Perhaps, there is too much variability at the AM's judging current and future potential?

Yes, their own ability would definitely impact the quality of the assessment. In the lower leagues, it's much more of a crapshoot.

Quicksand is using the impact of his empirical evidence, while the AI seems to only use the numbers behind the player. Of course considering you finished in 20th QS, maybe you should listen to what your AM is telling you. ;)

[Runtheball]

I was wondering if any of the FM players here can give me their two cents on the usefulness of the scouting and the coaches input as it stands in the current version?



Regarding the usefulness of scouting:
I have two leagues going. I have several scouts in each league and a few of those scouts are really good. I use the "average" scouts in my home country, and I send the really good scouts out to other countries. The scouts working in the home country return tons of prospects, but the scouts sent beyond our borders return virtually no prospects at all. In my Scottish league, I can find prospects only in England and Ireland, but none in Germany, Italy, Spain, USA. In my Chinese league, I find no prospects in Hong Kong (but that's the only other place I've searched for that league so far).

Is there a bug, or a limitation within the game as to which countries are scoutable based on the home country you're playing? (Note that all of the countries I've tried to scout have been "selected nations" during game setup).

[ice4277]

I just finished a season this afternoon with Barnsley in which we were promoted to the Championship by finishing in second place. My AM has pretty good stats across the board, with a 13 for 'judging player ability'. Everybody on his team report is only given either one or two stars, including the player who finished with the second-highest average rating in the division, as well as the divsion's leading goalscorer. However, the players in the starting 11 that my AM picked are about 85% correct to my point of view. The best/weakest players listed seem to be spot on as well. Potential stars, well, I'm not really sure, they are all under-18 players in their first seasons with the club so we'll see. So, in some respects, he seems pretty correct, but is very harsh in his rating of the players.

[Desnudo]

The rating changes based on the level of competition. So a 5-star player in the ECL might only be a 2-3 star player in the EPL. 13 for judging player ability is mediocre. I'd try going for someone with at least 15.

[Eaglesfan27]

I just finished a season this afternoon with Barnsley in which we were promoted to the Championship by finishing in second place. My AM has pretty good stats across the board, with a 13 for 'judging player ability'. Everybody on his team report is only given either one or two stars, including the player who finished with the second-highest average rating in the division, as well as the divsion's leading goalscorer. However, the players in the starting 11 that my AM picked are about 85% correct to my point of view. The best/weakest players listed seem to be spot on as well. Potential stars, well, I'm not really sure, they are all under-18 players in their first seasons with the club so we'll see. So, in some respects, he seems pretty correct, but is very harsh in his rating of the players.
Have you advanced to the season where you are in the Championship? I'm not positive, but I think the # of stars is relative to your league level. So, if you have already advanced to the Championship, it might make more sense to give those guys only 1 or 2 stars compared to that talent level.

[ice4277]

Have you advanced to the season where you are in the Championship? I'm not positive, but I think the # of stars is relative to your league level. So, if you have already advanced to the Championship, it might make more sense to give those guys only 1 or 2 stars compared to that talent level.
No, I thought of that, but only 3 game days have passed. The report actually says "Andy Ritchie believes the Barnsley squad will require strengthening if the club is to achieve their expectations of a top half finish in the League One." I found that pretty funny actually :)

[FrogMan]

Have you advanced to the season where you are in the Championship? I'm not positive, but I think the # of stars is relative to your league level. So, if you have already advanced to the Championship, it might make more sense to give those guys only 1 or 2 stars compared to that talent level.
it is indeed relative to your league level. I went from League One to Championship and now to Premiership in three consecutive seasons. Everybody was 5 stars in League One, in Championship, there were a guy or two at 3 stars, some at 4 and many other still at 5 and now in the Premiership, I have 2 at 5, then a bunch at 3 and one of the guys that went from 5 to 3 going to the Championship is now a 1 star player...

FM

[QuikSand]

Yes, their own ability would definitely impact the quality of the assessment. In the lower leagues, it's much more of a crapshoot.

Quicksand is using the impact of his empirical evidence, while the AI seems to only use the numbers behind the player. Of course considering you finished in 20th QS, maybe you should listen to what your AM is telling you. ;)

First, point taken. I make no claims to being an expert.


However, let's say that this is the source of the whole problem, and it's my poor staff that's at fault. I can accept that, in concept. Poor staff yields poor results, I would be fine with that -- my lousy guy gives me bad advice, likes certain players, doesn't like others even though they might perform otherwise on the pitch in reality.

But if my AM's advice completely changes, week by week, what does this tell me? How is this useful in any way? Does it model anything at all realistic?

It's like I hired Sybil as my Assistant Manager...

[Desnudo]

It would tell me that I need to can my assistant manager.

[FrogMan]

No, I thought of that, but only 3 game days have passed. The report actually says "Andy Ritchie believes the Barnsley squad will require strengthening if the club is to achieve their expectations of a top half finish in the League One." I found that pretty funny actually :)
had you clinched promotion in these three days. I've found that once you clinch promotion, your assistant's assessment changes, yet he still reports about the league you are currently in, that must be a bug.

FM

[ice4277]

had you clinched promotion in these three days. I've found that once you clinch promotion, your assistant's assessment changes, yet he still reports about the league you are currently in, that must be a bug.

FM
Ah, that must be it then, yes, I already clinched promotion. Perhaps he is actually talking about The Championship but it just says League One?

Ugh, if that is the case, and he is accurate, it could be a long year at Oakwell :(

[Eaglesfan27]

Speaking of bugs. After I clinched the EPL last year, I still had managers trying to play mind games saying they didn't think I could win the EPL title. Sounds like a similar type of bug.

[Desnudo]

This issue is indirectly related to what we've been discussing.

http://community.sigames.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/2412011121

Speaking of bugs. After I clinched the EPL last year, I still had managers trying to play mind games saying they didn't think I could win the EPL title. Sounds like a similar type of bug.

I had the same experience, although with managers saying they felt we could go all the way. Well, since we clinched already, I should hope so. I saw it logged in the bug forum.

[ice4277]

This issue is indirectly related to what we've been discussing.

http://community.sigames.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/2412011121



I had the same experience, although with managers saying they felt we could go all the way. Well, since we clinched already, I should hope so. I saw it logged in the bug forum.
I have also seen A LOT of short-term loans taking place over the summer months.

[Francis_Cole]

1. The Asst Manager lists my backup goalkeeper as the weakest defender. Once he listed him as a midfielder calling him out as the weakest player in the midfield. Probably both were accurate if it wasn't for the fact that he's a keeper. hehe


Thats a real strange one! Never seen that :( Have you got the latest patch? ( I know it seems like that seems to be the answer to everything :D )


2. The starting lineup he reports on usually doesn't match the starting lineup I'm using or the starting lineup that he suggests when I ask him to pick them. It would be nice if he were to report on the starters from the last match.


He uses his favrioute formation, so its basically what team he would play if he was manager. I agree it may be slightly confusing if you are usuing a different formation.



3. The assessments varies widely during the season. Do I go with his 2-star rating for my striker in December or the 5-star rating in October?


His advice will also be based on form/injuries etc, so I would go with his latest ratings.


4. The overall advice is often off. Example: Midseason, I'm in first place leading the league in goals and he tells me he doesn't think the team can achieve a mid-table performance unless we strengthen our attack. Huh?


Yes, this is a known problem (I mean feature ;) ). He basically is reporting on his opinion of the current team as a whole and doesn't compare to what it is currently doing.
So he won't say "I think the attack needs to be strengthed, however I will admit they are playing way above their current level" and will simply just say they need to be improved.

Hope this clears some things up, :)
Cheers
Fran

[ice4277]

there indeed was an issue with scouts/coaches/assistant managers thinking everybody was crap and they would not recommend signing anybody, thus not allowing your team board to "unlock" the funds to make a decent offer, even to a world class player. This has been fixed to a pretty decent degree with the most recent patch.

Hell Atlantic, I'm still playing my initial career, started the day I received my copy of the game, some 2 weeks after it was released. I have patched it twice since then and I've seen all the announced improvements take place in my game just fine. So go ahead, patch yours and keep playing your career if you want to.

FM
I'm continuing a game now that I started pre-5.0.5 patch. I didn't have a problem with my AM recommending signings when I was in League One. However, now that I am in The Championship, my AM has not recommended one player as a good signing. I have attempted to sign Premier League-quality players and he still says they are not good enough for the team. I wouldn't really care except for the fact I cannot offer a maximum wage to possible new players.

[FrogMan]

I'm continuing a game now that I started pre-5.0.5 patch. I didn't have a problem with my AM recommending signings when I was in League One. However, now that I am in The Championship, my AM has not recommended one player as a good signing. I have attempted to sign Premier League-quality players and he still says they are not good enough for the team. I wouldn't really care except for the fact I cannot offer a maximum wage to possible new players.
not knowing any fact, could it be that your assistant is just not good enough at evluating players? Maybe players of League One calibre were easy enough for him to evaluate, but now it's just too high for him... No idea, just suggesting... I've been from League One to Championship, and now Premiership in three consecutive season (on 5.0.5 patched game, started pre-patch) and my scout is recommending plenty of player that would be "useful" and sometimes players that would become "essential" members of our first team.

FM

[ice4277]

not knowing any fact, could it be that your assistant is just not good enough at evluating players? Maybe players of League One calibre were easy enough for him to evaluate, but now it's just too high for him... No idea, just suggesting... I've been from League One to Championship, and now Premiership in three consecutive season (on 5.0.5 patched game, started pre-patch) and my scout is recommending plenty of player that would be "useful" and sometimes players that would become "essential" members of our first team.

FM
Well, many of the players he said would have been essential members of the first team before the game 'rolled over' my team into the Championship. Now, about one week of game time later, none of them are any good. My AM has pretty good ratings compared with other AM's at the Championship level, so I don't think thats a factor. Also, my scouts have not given me one positive report about players I am having them scout, and many of them are being chased by other Championship teams, and even a few Premier teams. M