Racism

[BigJohn&TheLions]

From espn:

Indiana Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal said he thinks racism might have something to do with the NBA's desire to put an age limit in the next collective bargaining agreement.

"In the last two or three years, the rookie of the year has been a high school player. There were seven high school players in the All-Star Game, so why we even talking an age limit?" O'Neal said.

The past two rookies of the year were drafted out of high school: The Cavaliers' LeBron James was the 2003-04 rookie of the year, while the Suns' Amare Stoudemire won the award after the 2002-03 season.

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I guess racism is getting better if it has gone from lynching & segregation to age limits on overpaid crybabies in professional sports. I'm going to have to read the fine print in the new CBA to find where white kids can be drafted before they're 20.

O'Neal should be ashamed...

[Danny]

Maybe because there aren't any white kids who are good enough? Im not sure this is racism, but it is bull. These players have proven they could come in the league at 18 and contribute, if not be better than all the 19, 20, 21 and 22 year old rookies.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

A few have been good enough, but O'Neal is a perfect example of someone who wasn't ready. It took him a few years to catch on, as it does most of the HS'ers. Many of these 6-8, 185 lb kids could use a few years to develop their game. Although basketball will still just continue to spiral downward until the best shooters hit somewhere in the neighborhood of 25% and we all sit around talking about the old days where there was this thing called a "pass."

Of course there will eventually be some 6-4 13 year old who sues because he feels he is ready to play in the NBA. He will win and be drafted because of the potential he has "He's still growing!" will be quoted. He may not be able to spell his name, he may still wet the bed and he don't play defense, but the kid can shoot!

[Danny]

I see it differently. O'neal is a good example of why high schoolers should be allowed to enter the draft. While his development wasn't as quick as some, I certainly wouldn't use one of the better players in the league as an example of why you should play in college.

I don't disagree about disliking where the NBA is going, but it's not because 18/19 year old are allowed to enter the draft.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

O'Neal is an idiot. In calling this "racist" he is essentially saying that the civil rights movement wa so that black kids can play basketball and not get the education that would have been denied to them not not so long ago.

As for him not developing as quickly as some... He spent four years on the bench in Portland. How much better would he be if he had gone to a school and developed at a more gradual pace than jumping into the fire right away.

A great reason that these kids have any chance to make it at 18 or 19 is that this league is as weak as ever due greatly to the players believing from they are five years old that they are the greatest basketball player ever. They know they deserve everything because they get everything handed to them.

It's a sad situation when young men feel that an education is for chumps. I wish every single one of these ignorant bastards would suffer a horrific knee injury early in their prep career, so that they would have to start using some grey matter instead of muscle.

You want to know what real rascism is? It's telling young black boys that the only way they can be a success is thru sports and that there is no need to get an education. It would make many a KKK member smile...

[Danny]

O'Neal is an idiot. In calling this "racist" he is essentially saying that the civil rights movement wa so that black kids can play basketball and not get the education that would have been denied to them not not so long ago.

Yeah, I am sure two years of intro to the internet is going to make a world of difference.


As for him not developing as quickly as some... He spent four years on the bench in Portland. How much better would he be if he had gone to a school and developed at a more gradual pace than jumping into the fire right away.


He is one of the best players in the NBA. Are you saying that if he went to college, he would suddenly move up to the Shaq, Garnett, Duncan level? Because he is in that next tier of players.


A great reason that these kids have any chance to make it at 18 or 19 is that this league is as weak as ever due greatly to the players believing from they are five years old that they are the greatest basketball player ever. They know they deserve everything because they get everything handed to them.


Yeah and how is simply delaying their entrance by two years going to change any of that? If they were a seflish greedy baby going into college, being a basketball star for Kentucky or UConn isn't going to change that.


It's a sad situation when young men feel that an education is for chumps.
This I agree with, but again, delaying the players entrance for a couple of years won't change this.


I wish every single one of these ignorant bastards would suffer a horrific knee injury early in their prep career, so that they would have to start using some grey matter instead of muscle.


Wow, you're not jealous at all are you?


You want to know what real rascism is? It's telling young black boys that the only way they can be a success is thru sports and that there is no need to get an education. It would make many a KKK member smile...

And this is different from 16 year old white hockey players who are going to play pro hockey and not getting an education? Or the white people who train for the olympic games and skip their education? Or the white tennis and soccer players who do the same? etc.etc.etc.

[mckerney]

It's a sad situation when young men feel that an education is for chumps. I wish every single one of these ignorant bastards would suffer a horrific knee injury early in their prep career, so that they would have to start using some grey matter instead of muscle.

I don't think he's saying education is for chumps. Did Joe Mauer say education is for chumps when he declined to go to Florida State in favor of playing minor league baseball? College isn't for everyone, and I don't think that others who get a job right out of high school would say education is for chumps, it's just not for them.

If someone can get a job without going to college then what's the problem? Especially in the case of basketball players who are first round prospects out of high school. They can give basketball a shot, and they'll still make enough money to allow them to take college courses later in life. Why should they delay starting to make a living just because someone else thinks they need a college education, even if it won't necessarily be a benefit to them in their career, and can ever slow their development?

I think O'Neil is incorrect in viewing the situation as racist, but what's wrong with him wanting to make a living instead of attend classes after high school?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Where is an actual quote from O'Neal in which he mentions racism? Is there one?

[Havok]

Fight The Power!!!











this is why i hate the NBA

[Pumpy Tudors]

Thanks, mckerney.

[mckerney]

Where is an actual quote from O'Neal in which he mentions racism? Is there one?

This is from the ESPN article:

O'Neal doesn't agree with Stern's agenda, however.

"As a black guy, you kind of think [race is] the reason why it's coming up.

"You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. Army and fight the war at 18 why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?" O'Neal said.

[mckerney]

Thanks, mckerney.

No problem. I'd kind of like to see a transcript of the interview though to see the questions asked to lead to the response, as it could give a little clearer context to his statements.

I'd have to disagree with the notion that race is the issue, as I can understand the feeling of the league officials that players are coming out before they're ready and it's having some affect on the quality of play, but I don't think that it's right to prevent those who are obviously ready to come out from entering the league. The comparison to hockey and baseball doesn't seem fair to me, as both of those sports have a large minor league system, whereas basketball relying on NCAA basketball. I think the best thing for the NBA to do would be to develop an expanded minor league beyond the NBDL, though I doubt the NBA is interested in spending the money to do so right now, along with there likely being a sentiment of not wanting to take too much away from college basketball. I do think it would be a good thing for the league, however, as there's potential for some players to develop much better than they would in college.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Maybe I just have a different view since I am 32 and attending community college part-time. I know what it's like to not want anything to do with school at 17, because I was there. I know how valuable an education is, and how much these kids need it.

I have a friend who thought that he could get by on playing football. He was good, but not good enough. He was getting attention from some colleges, but dropping out didn't help him. He thought he'd play some semi-pro ball and then step up to the pros. Never happened. He's now 31 and never even bothered to get a GED. He's smart, but wasted so much potential.

It's next to impossible to get a good job without a college degree. Look at the jobs listed online. Practically every single one requires a bachelor degree. By the time I get one, I'll be 40...

The main problem I have isn't with the select few athletes who are good enough to make it, it is the impact of those select few on the many who don't make it. Nobody believes they won't be the next Michael Jordan, but what about the kids who have that injury, or who just aren't good enough? I also knew a kid who was a 1st round pick in the NHL. He was a total bust. Before he busted I heard his father say to another guy "He's lucky he can play hockey, 'cuz he's dumb as a stump." His father was right, except that hockey career never happened and who knows what ever happened to him.

There are a lot of kids who never make it. Those are the ones who suffer from not getting an education. Jermaine O'Neal doesn't even have to know how to spell his own name and it won't make any difference in his life. But maybe if he had attended a history class or two he would understand that Martin Luther King didn't "Have a dream that, one day little black boys will sign $90 million dollar shoe contracts based on their abilities to play basketball." And that Brown v. Board of Education wasn't to allow young black men to play basketball.

Then again, maybe I'm a chump for wishing that more young black boys dreamed of becoming doctors, lawyers, and even president...

[Neon_Chaos]

Here's the article on Yahoo Sports, it's got a paragraph that was left out in the original post. I think you guys are being hard on J.O. :) He's got the right idea with regards to the military service thing, but I don't think it's got anything to do with race.

TORONTO (AP) -- Indiana center Jermaine O'Neal said the NBA's desire to put an age limit in the next collective bargaining agreement could be driven by racism.

``In the last two or three years, the rookie of the year has a been a high school player. There were seven high school players in the All-Star game, so why we even talking an age limit?'' said O'Neal, who was drafted out of high school in 1996 by the Portland Trail Blazers.

``As a black guy, you kind of think that's the reason why it's coming up. You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. army and fight the war at 18, why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?''

The NBA's seven-year labor agreement expires after the season and NBA commissioner David Stern has asked for a 20-year-old age limit in the next deal, with incentives provided to players who defer their draft eligibility to stay in college. The union originally opposed raising the current age limit of 18, but has begun to waver.

Cleveland's LeBron James won the rookie of the year award last season, and Phoenix's Amare Stoudemire took home the honor for the 2002-03 season. Both were drafted out of high school.

[Ragone]

Lemme tell you why the nba wants to institute the age limit..

They really want those high schoolers to go to the nbdl to establish it as a true minor league, not some gesture to try and save college basketball, david stern could give a rats ass about that.. its not because david stern was some plantation slave owner in a past life.

Notice how he says Nba everytime he talks about it.. not mentioning anything else.. In fact i think them instituting the rule might make it worse.

[KeyserSoze]

I don´t think it´s racism. Black players will be better at 18 or 22.

But I disagree with the age limit. At 18 you can take your own decissions. You can study, you can work.... Let the players choose. Let the team choose. If Lebron is better at 18 that another player at 28 why he can play pros?

American sports have too much rules too much nosense. Let the players make mistake, let the teams make mistakes. But let them choose.

If teams doesn´t believe that they are ready, they wont choose them. It plain an simple offer-supply law

[bhlloy]

I don't agree with the age limit in the NBA. This isn't the NFL where a kid right out of high school is going to get killed if he steps right in.

Think where Cleveland would be without LeBron for the past year and a half... he'd only have been eligible to come into the league this December. It would have done next to nothing for LeBron's game to play in the NBDL for a year and a half, scoring 60 points every week against the Darko Milicic's of the league. He's an exception, but there are always a handful of high schoolers and freshmen ready to play every year.

Forcing the players into the NDBL is a terrible halfway house that will satisfy no-one. The draft loses some of it's excitement (take that high school phenom and the fans aren't going to see him for 2 years), it won't provide the level of competition that will keep anyone interested or the players developing, and it doesn't keep kids in college. I wonder how the college teams feel about Stern trying to set up what can be argued as a "rival" league? Can the NBDL teams sign players out of high school off their own backs? If not how is the league going to work?

[Antmeister]

While it does sometimes to be based on race, I doubt it when I think about it more clearly. If you think about it, I think the reason why they are making such a big deal about it is that college basketball has weakened and it has been one of the huge sporting markets in college athletics. A lot of money is being lost if interest in the game continues to decline. I don't appreciate it, but I think that is the reason. Baseball and hockey enjoy the luxury of kid's not having a college education.

And BigJohn, I am in the same boat as you are. I am 33 years old (about to turn 34) and attending an Art School. I also have 2 young children and that is enough to make you appreciate a lot of things. Luckily I have 6 more months before I recieve that Bachelor's and I do understand what you mean when talking about appreciation for education. However, it shouldn't be overlooked that there are many people who don't learn the same way. I can name a number of millionares (athletes and non-athletic) who have only a high school education, at most, and succeeded in their life. I mean even Sidney Poiter, who only had a 2nd grade education was able to educate himself in other ways to make it through life. While others either have some special talent that allows them to make it whether that is sculpting, designing, or any other activity that require physical dexterity. That is not fair to force someone to go to college who doesn't have the desire or ability to do so.

[hhiipp]

If you think about it, I think the reason why they are making such a big deal about it is that college basketball has weakened and it has been one of the huge sporting markets in college athletics. A lot of money is being lost if interest in the game continues to decline.
Give me a college game over an NBA hang from the rim fest any day of the week.

[Subby]

I was prepared to be all irate and wound up about what O'Neal was going to say, but this quote...``As a black guy, you kind of think that's the reason why it's coming up. You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. army and fight the war at 18, why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?''...sure makes you think.

[Crapshoot]

College sports is a profit making enterprise that works because young men are extolled for staying for the virtues of amateurism - though only they arel limited from making money of it. the NBA likes it because the college ranks serve as a free minor league for them, doing the developmental work and allowing them to weed out some of the potential for actual production. the NCAA likes it becauses they get serf labor and make huge bucks of it. The only people getting screwed are the atheletes- who are barred from profiting from their talents, while everyone else is allowed to. I've always found people who insist the college game is great seem to want to ignore the ridiculous nature of it.

[Gary Gorski]

What I don't understand is why the players association would be against an age limit. For every LeBron James there's a handful of schleps who never see the floor and are out of the league the minute their guaranteed contract expires. And because of guaranteed contracts for 1st round picks teams are stuck with these guys for 3 years - that's 3 years eating up a roster spot that some 12 year vet could take and maybe actually contribute something along the way.

I would think the vets would be glad to keep the kids out of the league as it would allow them a few more years of a very nice paycheck. I think a better solution though is to make the NBDL a legit minor league - give each team an affiliate, expand the draft to three rounds and you can draft high schoolers until your heart is content - let them play in the NBDL if they are not ready and see if they ever turn into anything worthy of calling up to the big leagues. This would be a huge benefit to the teams as they could get these prospects at reduced prices (say no guaranteed contract for 1st round picks until you are placed on the NBA roster) and could actually find out what they drafted before they have to make a contract decision like Detroit will with Darko soon.

I actually think its a good idea to set an age limit - not because I don't think 18 year olds can hang with NBA players because guys like LeBron and Amare have proven they can and certainly not because of "racism" but because its what is best for these kids. These guys will not play basketball forever and what you are faced with when joining the NBA is much more than can you get the ball in the hoop with Iverson guarding you. A 21 year old is going to be more mature and have a better chance of managing his money and dealing with social issues like having women throw themselves at you in the hopes of getting pregnant and a lifetime of $$$ or if the team is going to a bar how do you not feel alienated because you can't (or are not supposed to) go. Sure some of the 21 year olds will be no better at handling these situations then 18 year olds but at least there's a chance they could have learned something about how the world works with 2 years in college.

[Ragone]

Lebron is the best example of what could go wrong with teenagers going into the nba.. not following me? let me explain

Lebron's Mom was spending money like she was printing it when he was still a hs senior.. if senor lebron had torn his acl etc.. do you think the insurance policy she had on him(if she even had one.. i can't find conclusive evidence on that) would have covered all the money she spent on "gifts" such as the hummer..clothes.. etc

She said it was his "Birthday gifts" jee thanks for buying me all this stuff by taking out a loan on my future.. how would she have paid all that off if he got hurt..

[Crapshoot]

What I don't understand is why the players association would be against an age limit. For every LeBron James there's a handful of schleps who never see the floor and are out of the league the minute their guaranteed contract expires. And because of guaranteed contracts for 1st round picks teams are stuck with these guys for 3 years - that's 3 years eating up a roster spot that some 12 year vet could take and maybe actually contribute something along the way.

I would think the vets would be glad to keep the kids out of the league as it would allow them a few more years of a very nice paycheck. I think a better solution though is to make the NBDL a legit minor league - give each team an affiliate, expand the draft to three rounds and you can draft high schoolers until your heart is content - let them play in the NBDL if they are not ready and see if they ever turn into anything worthy of calling up to the big leagues. This would be a huge benefit to the teams as they could get these prospects at reduced prices (say no guaranteed contract for 1st round picks until you are placed on the NBA roster) and could actually find out what they drafted before they have to make a contract decision like Detroit will with Darko soon.

I actually think its a good idea to set an age limit - not because I don't think 18 year olds can hang with NBA players because guys like LeBron and Amare have proven they can and certainly not because of "racism" but because its what is best for these kids. These guys will not play basketball forever and what you are faced with when joining the NBA is much more than can you get the ball in the hoop with Iverson guarding you. A 21 year old is going to be more mature and have a better chance of managing his money and dealing with social issues like having women throw themselves at you in the hopes of getting pregnant and a lifetime of $$$ or if the team is going to a bar how do you not feel alienated because you can't (or are not supposed to) go. Sure some of the 21 year olds will be no better at handling these situations then 18 year olds but at least there's a chance they could have learned something about how the world works with 2 years in college.

Gee Gary, should you be making decisions about what's best for them ? I think its best that you spend 2 years programming your games for me, for free- because I don't think you're ready for the big time. And remember, I'm doing it for your own good.

[BrianD]

I was prepared to be all irate and wound up about what O'Neal was going to say, but this quote......
``As a black guy, you kind of think that's the reason why it's coming up. You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. army and fight the war at 18, why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?''
sure makes you think.

Good analogy. The Pistons and Pacers showed that basketball isn't that far from war sometimes.

The issue isn't that these kids can't play basketball, the issue is that these kids are still kids. In general, the kids come in with all kinds of individual skills and no team skills. They also come in with no idea how to handle fame and fortune. It is this culture which is creating a league of thugs and is seriously destroying the game.

How many people do you know that would much rather watch college basketball over pro ball? This probably comes down to wanting to watch a team game rather than a bunch of one-on-one games with 8 spectators having really good seats.

[Gary Gorski]

Gee Gary, should you be making decisions about what's best for them ? I think its best that you spend 2 years programming your games for me, for free- because I don't think you're ready for the big time. And remember, I'm doing it for your own good.

Are you really going to argue that an 18 year old on average is better equiped to handle a lifestyle like that than a 21 year old?

I'm not saying the kids are wrong for jumping - hell if someone offered me a couple mil guaranteed to play basketball I'd quit whatever it was I was doing too. Nor am I saying they are not ready for the big time - a few are but most are not and almost all of them are not ready for the lifestyle it brings. Look at the struggles Kwame Brown has had both on the court and off trying to adjust to being a kid in a man's world - a kid with lots of money, lots of pressure and lots of expectations - a LeBron might thrive on that but Kwame and many others certainly have not. Some have adjusted in the end like O'Neal and like Brown may be doing now but some don't even get the chance to stick around long enough to make that adjustment.

[Cringer]

Let them in if they want.

If they fail I can point and laugh. If they succeed then I am probably amazed by their great talent. It's a win-win.

[Ragone]

Anyone remember Leon Smith? i do.. :)

[Crapshoot]

Are you really going to argue that an 18 year old on average is better equiped to handle a lifestyle like that than a 21 year old?

I'm not saying the kids are wrong for jumping - hell if someone offered me a couple mil guaranteed to play basketball I'd quit whatever it was I was doing too. Nor am I saying they are not ready for the big time - a few are but most are not and almost all of them are not ready for the lifestyle it brings. Look at the struggles Kwame Brown has had both on the court and off trying to adjust to being a kid in a man's world - a kid with lots of money, lots of pressure and lots of expectations - a LeBron might thrive on that but Kwame and many others certainly have not. Some have adjusted in the end like O'Neal and like Brown may be doing now but some don't even get the chance to stick around long enough to make that adjustment.

No, but I'm arguing that as a society, if we allow an 18 year old to go to war, we should damn well allow him his right to make money, like any other 18 year old. Fundementally, I think its their choice, and not yours or mine. In this case, when the alternative is essentialy serfdom, its a significant moral breach. I think (and I'm not picking on you here) that part of the problem is that there are many in America who have a problem with young black men having money and throwing it around (how this makes them different from other young men I don't know)- no one makes these complaints about hockey or baseball.

[stevew]

A better rule would be to institute something like Baseball or football has.....either you turn pro out of HS, but if you go to college you cant leave until after your Junior year, or 3 years after your HS class graduates(unless you transfer or something). The option of playing Pro Basketball vs playing College basketball needs to be better defined, the "one and done's" may take scholarships away from players that are actually trying to get an education.

[Gary Gorski]

No, but I'm arguing that as a society, if we allow an 18 year old to go to war, we should damn well allow him his right to make money, like any other 18 year old. Fundementally, I think its their choice, and not yours or mine. In this case, when the alternative is essentialy serfdom, its a significant moral breach. I think (and I'm not picking on you here) that part of the problem is that there are many in America who have a problem with young black men having money and throwing it around (how this makes them different from other young men I don't know)- no one makes these complaints about hockey or baseball.

First, there's a difference between allowing someone to go to war as it is to have a job. A 12 year old is capable of doing work and probably capable of doing that work for 40 hours a week yet the government decided that its not in the best interest of a 12 year old to be working 40 hours a week instead of being in school. The government has also decided that 18 year old men and women are old enough to fight to defend our country (or take over the world - whatever your take on politics is)

As for your point on there are people in America who have a problem with young black men having money - I'd argue that the people who have that problem probably have the problem with any non-white male person having money or power so those people are going to be pissed whether LeBron is a multi-millionaire at 18 or 21.

Third, nobody makes these complaints about hockey and baseball because they have minor leagues where kids who aren't ready for the bigs go to play. People do make this complaint about the NFL which like the NBA does not have a minor league but also does have the age restriction.

If the NBA wants to make the NBDL a true minor league and pay these guys minor league salaries who aren't ready to hack it in the big league then fine but I think you're doing a huge disservice to an 18 year old by paying him a couple hundred grand for 3 years and then turning him loose into the real world with no education, no more basketball career and more than likely not a whole lot of that money saved up for the rest of his life.

How do you go from nothing at 18 to hundreds of thousands/millions and fame then back to nothing at 21 and stand a decent chance of keeping your sanity and readjusting back to an average life?

[bhlloy]

Gary - I don't see why a development league and an age restriction have to go hand in hand. Have the league, expand the draft but if an 18 year old is ready to play in the NBA let him play. It would have been ridiculous to deprive Cleveland of LeBron for a year and a half and make LeBron play in a watered down league where he'd score 60 every night.

Of course, the only reason Stern wants the development league is to make extra money. And the only way it will make money is if high draft picks, guys like LeBron and Carmelo have to play there for a year or two. It's a bit too cosy for me and I don't buy the "good for the game" bullshit.

[hhiipp]

No, but I'm arguing that as a society, if we allow an 18 year old to go to war, we should damn well allow him his right to make money, like any other 18 year old. Fundementally, I think its their choice, and not yours or mine.
Couldn't the same be said for alcohol and gambling? What are you views on 18 year olds not being allowed to do that?

[Crapshoot]

Couldn't the same be said for alcohol and gambling? What are you views on 18 year olds not being allowed to do that?

I think they should be allowed to - by all means - they are full citizens and are responsible for their actions- why should their rights be limited ? I'm a fairly firm individualist on the issue,.

[Gary Gorski]

Gary - I don't see why a development league and an age restriction have to go hand in hand. Have the league, expand the draft but if an 18 year old is ready to play in the NBA let him play. It would have been ridiculous to deprive Cleveland of LeBron for a year and a half and make LeBron play in a watered down league where he'd score 60 every night.

Of course, the only reason Stern wants the development league is to make extra money. And the only way it will make money is if high draft picks, guys like LeBron and Carmelo have to play there for a year or two. It's a bit too cosy for me and I don't buy the "good for the game" bullshit.

No I would advocate use of the development league as a minor league system in lieu of the age restriction - if you draft an 18 year old and he can play now then fine, put him on the roster and his contract is guaranteed like a normal rookie deal. If a player you draft is not ready you send him to the NBDL at a minor league contract and when and if you call him up to the NBA team then his contract becomes guaranteed at the amount for his draft position (assuming he was a 1st round pick)

If that type of situation were in place you would have kids thinking a little more carefully before they made the jump except for the ones like LeBron and Amare who are ready to play. Do you spend an (extra) year in college and attempt to improve your stock so that when you are drafted you make the team and spend all 3 years getting paid the guaranteed amount or do you take a risk and enter the draft hoping that you don't get sent to the NBDL and waste a year or more of your guaranteed contract years playing at a minor league rate and you would not be impeding anyone's ability to make money playing basketball - they would just make less money because they're not as good as the players in the NBA yet.

[bhlloy]

Couldn't agree more.

Unfortunately, $$$ is what talks and what I expect to happen is NBDL comes in WITH guaranteed contracts and WITH the age restrictions. That way the draft gets expanded, Stern gets a minor league with star appeal and the union is happy for it to happen. And you are going to see even more kids skipping college, and even more kids being used up and thrown by the wayside.

[panerd]

But what if instead of playing basketball Jermaine O'Neal was walking in the middle of the street like most blacks tend to do?

[Young Drachma]

Actually, I take a different view on what he said. Most of these players won't cry racism unless it affects their money. O'Neal has nothing to gain really, from saying this - it's not like he's trying to be well-liked or anything by David Stern or anyone else.

For him to have the druthers to even talk about something like this, shows me that he's not the dolt someone on this thread painted him - and presumbly all athletes of his ilk - to be.

I think colleges should spend more money recruiting students who will never spend a day in the pros. I think those kids ought to get scholarship money, get a chance to get a degree that will change their lives.

If teams sign a player to an ill advised - guaranteed - 1st round contract and that player flops, whose fault is it? Certainly not the player for being signed. If he blows all his money and doesn't do anything, again, who cares? The team does because they signed him, but get better at scouting and it wouldn't be an issue.

This whole ploy does to me smack of the subtle racism that exists in sports like basketball. When a legend like Michael Jordan can't get a wiff of a team, after all he's done, when a sport like hockey is bringing back its old stars to own teams in droves - you know it's all about "thanks for your hard work making the rest of us rich beyond our wildest dreams. but we don't give a damn what you want, Mike."

As for this age limit, I think that it's obviously ill advised. The league can do whatever it wants and if the perception is that high school kids are "destroying" the game or do negative things to the league's standing among the consumer, then I can see where it makes sense.

Obviously, the average veteran isn't opposed to this because it means less money for unproven players and more for them trickling down. But I don't think that 1) the trickle down will happen and 2) I don't see that the Players Association will go for this.

If these kids keep getting big contracts, it forces owners to spend money. That means, the more likely they are to open their wallets for unproven stars, gives proven players a lot more bargaining power.

I don't think a paternalistic policy that says "these kids ought to get an education" is a sound reason for denying them a chance to take care of their families and others close to them, when many of them don't come from much money to begin with - even if they did, we don't deny kids from attempting to graduate from college before they're 18..this isn't much different.

Though I understand the aversion of leagues to have prodigies floating amongst them.

[Easy Mac]

Strange that O'Neal fails to mention his test scores were too low for college (and believe me, you don't need good scores to get into SC)... but racism makes people pay attention. If the NBA raises the limit, then it means kids like O'Neal actually have to work and be well-rounded instead of just coasting through life.

Oh, and I found a good list of kids who went from high school to the pros, with a decent synopsis on each... nice reading:

1974:
Moses Malone (Petersburg, Va.)
-- 22nd overall pick (3rd round); by Utah (ABA).
The Scoop: This 6-10 phenom was the first modern-era player to jump to the pro ranks when he signed with the Utah stars after being selected in the third round of the 1974 ABA draft. He signed a grant-in-aid with the University of Maryland after being courted by nearly every college that fielded a college varsity team. Maryland coach "Lefty" Driesell once said he was going to make Maryland the "UCLA of the East" and he would have actually had a chance to do that if Malone would have went there. Instead Malone went on to be selected NBA MVP three times and is a member of the NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time team.

1975:
Darryl Dawkins (Evans, Orlando Fla.)
-- 5th overall pick (1st round); by Philadelphia.
The Scoop: "Chocolate Thunder" was one of the most colorful players ever to play in the NBA. He helped the 76ers win a World Championship in 1983 and came in as an 18-year rookie throwing down monstrous dunks and naming each one of them. He was also colorful off the court, where he embraced a lifestyle of crashing parties, doing drugs and chasing women. Despite his revelations, Dawkins was also truthful and often spoke eloquently about the abuses in the league as if he were a scholar.

Bill Willoughby (Morrow, Englewood, N.J.)
-- 19th overall pick (2nd round); by Atlanta.
The Scoop: As a senior at Dwight Morrow High School, "Poodle" Willoughby was heavily recruited by colleges across the country, but he opted for the NBA. Willoughby never looks back and states that growing up in poverty made the decision easy at the time. He is rare in that he believes that a player with this unique opportunity should make the jump if he has the chance. Another factor that makes him rare is that he now owns a college degree.

1989:
Shawn Kemp (Concord, Elkhart, Ind.)
-- 17th overall pick (1st round); by Seattle.
<!---------------Start Tracy McGrady (content) Image-->The Scoop: This man-child was physically ready for the NBA, but like many young players was immature for the lifestyle provided to pro athletes. Kemp signed a letter of intent with Kentucky and was actually enrolled on campus, but a stealing incident involving another Wildcat player and question surrounding the recruitment of he and L.A. prep star Chris Mills eventually forced Kemp to leave Lexington. He enrolled at a junior college, never played, and made himself eligible for the next NBA Draft. On the court, he was a steal for the Sonics at pick No. 17, but weight problems after the NBA lockout in 1999 derailed a potential Hall of Fame career.

1995:
Kevin Garnett (Farragut, Chicago, Ill.)
-- 5th overall pick (1st round); by Minnesota.
The Scoop: Garnett was the consensus national player of the year and almost everybody believed he was going to attend Michigan. His test scores were low, but he later found out he qualified on his last attempt, but the ball was already rolling as he wowed NBA scouts with his athleticism and enormous wingspan. Garnett was had an all-pro NBA career and in retrospect should have been the No. 1 pick over Joe Smith. (Rasheed Wallace also should have gone higher than Smith). "The Big Ticket" may one day be the No. 1 forward on the StudentSportsBasketball.com All-Time All-American list if he can win an NBA title. Check back on this site next week to see where Garnett currently stands on that list. As for college, was Garnett going to Michigan? He told Student Sports Magazine in the fall of 1995 that, "Everybody had me going to Michigan for a long time. I led people on that I was going to UM. If I would have gone to college it was going to be Maryland. I was going to shock'em all."

1996:
Kobe Bryant (Lower Merion, Ardmore, Pa.)
-- 13th overall pick (1st round); by Charlotte (then traded to L.A. Lakers).
The Scoop: Kobe was academically qualified out of high school and would have been a college superstar at either Duke or LaSalle, the college where his father was an assistant coach at the time. After winning three NBA titles with Shaquille O'Neal, the current Lakers star is now No. 1 in L.A. like he always wanted to be. He actively courted Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski this off-season and it seems like that would have been a natural fit if he would have attended college. In the same Garnett article in SS Magazine, Laker great Jerry West, then the club's General Manager said, "It's not worth it" about high school players following Garnett straight to the league. Less than a year later, the Lakers shrewdly traded away Vlade Divac in a trade with Charlotte for the rights to the 17-year old Bryant, who should've been picked higher.

Jermaine O'Neal (Eau Claire, Columbia, S.C.)
-- 17th overall pick (1st round); by Portland.
The Scoop: Currently serving a suspension for a near-riot that recently took place between the Indiana Pacers, his current team, and the Pistons, O'Neal was not academically qualified coming out of high school. He and guard B.J McKie would have made a fine inside-outside combo at South Carolina, the college O'Neal was reportedly sent to attend. Instead, he went to a Blazer team that was extremely deep at his position and finally blossomed when he moved on to Indiana. It's hard to say if he should have been drafted higher, but going to a good team was better for him (like Bryant) than trying to save a doormat franchise.

Taj McDavid (Palmetto, Williamston SC)
-- not selected.
The Scoop: McDavid was not an All-American or well-known name on the prep circuit. He had fine statistics, but some speculate he would have not even been a good Div. I player. "Red" McDavid's dream of the NBA never materialized, but he eventually petitioned for NCAA eligibility at Div. II Anderson College. Unfortunately, he's often the one player people refer to in regards to the dangers of prep players declaring for the draft.

1997:
Tracy McGrady (Mt. Zion Academy, Durham, N.C.)
-- 9th overall pick (1st round); by Toronto Raptors.
The Scoop: "T-Mac" had turned out to be one of the best players in the NBA, but didn't get his opportunity right away with the Raptors. He eventually flourished and along with Grant Hill was supposed to lead the Orlando Magic to an NBA title. That never materialized and it remains to be seen if he will lead the Rockets, his current team, to prominence. As a prep, McGrady was an unknown commodity in Auburndale, Florida as a junior, but elevated his game more than any other player in recent history on the summer camp circuit in the summer of 1996. He was chosen the 1997 Student Sports National Player of the Year.

1998:
Al Harrington (St. Patrick's, Elizabeth, N.J.)
-- 25th overall pick (1st round); by Indiana.
The Scoop: Harrington has slowly developed in the NBA and was runner-up for NBA sixth man of the year during the '03-'04 season with the Pacers. He is now averaging over 16 points per game, but is with the Atlanta Hawks now. He was highly regarded as a prep player and was a national player of the year candidate. At the No. 25 pick in the draft, his career can be called a success.

Rashard Lewis (Elsik, Alief, Texas)
-- 32nd overall pick (2nd round); by Seattle.
The Scoop: In 1998, hot debate raged over who should be national player of the year. Some chose Harrington, others current NFL wide receiver Ronald Curry, but were glad we chose Lewis. As a second round pick and with out guaranteed money, the Sonics are sure glad they chose him, too.

Korleone Young (Hargrave Military Academy, Chatham, Va.)
-- 40th overall pick (2nd round); by Detroit.
The Scoop: Young was often projected to go in the middle of the first round of the '98 NBA Draft, but he fell to the second round and played a total of three NBA games for the Detroit Pistons the next year. He is a classic example of a player who got bad advice and believed his NBA value was higher than it actually was.

Ellis Richardson (Poly, Sun Valley, Calif.)
-- not selected.
The Scoop: This Los Angeles-area All-City selection was exactly that, and All-City player. He wasn't All-State by CalHiSports.com and he surely wasn't an All-American. He later migrated to Florida and ran into trouble with the law. He one told the Los Angeles Times, "I'm better than Michael Olowokandi," who was the first pick in the 1998 NBA Draft.

1999:
Jonathan Bender (Picayune, Miss.)
-- 5th overall pick (1st round); by Toronto.
The Scoop: Bender was one of the players who benefited greatly from the post-season All-Star circuit. He broke Michael Jordan's McDonald's All-American game scoring record and was drafted quite high by Toronto, but then his rights were traded to the Pacers for Antonio Davis. He is a contributor but he hasn't developed into the caliber of player Davis once was.

Leon Smith (M.L. King, Chicago, Ill.)
-- 29th overall pick (1st round); by San Antonio.
The Scoop: Smith's drafting and proceeding trade to the Mavericks was a disaster. Many pointed out that he simply didn't act like a pro athlete and was very immature. He wasn't the best prep player on his team (G Imari Sawyer was) and had many behavioral problems and was released by the Mavericks before the end of his first season in the NBA. He is talented, and has had cups of coffee with other clubs, but is a cautionary tale for NBA scouts and general managers.

2000:
Darius Miles (East St. Louis, Ill.)
-- 3rd overall pick (1st round); by L.A. Clippers.
The Scoop: Miles was taken under his wing by Michael Jordan and escaped the extreme poverty of East St. Louis by forgoing a college career at St. John's. He would have been a fine collegiate player, but comparisons to Kevin Garnett (his idol) have been unfair for him to live up to. He still has a chance to be a solid pro, but his thin frame has turned into a weakness on the pro level.

DeShawn Stevenson (Washington, Easton, Calif.)
-- 23rd overall pick (1st round); by Utah.
The Scoop: Stevenson was a dominant player on the Fresno basketball scene as early as the 7th grade. His strong, physical frame and leaping ability excited NBA scouts and then Kansas coach Roy Williams as well. He would have been dynamite in college with good coaching, but his development in the NBA has been slowed by a lack of playing time and finding a true position.

2001:
Kwame Brown (Glynn Academy, Brunswick, Ga.)
-- 1st overall pick (1st round); by Washington.
The Scoop: The first prep player to be chosen as the No. 1 pick in the NBA Draft, Kwame has had an up and down NBA career already. He committed to attend Florida University and probably would have been a household name if he decided to attend college. He didn't, however, as he will always carry that No. 1 stigma for as long as he is a pro.

Tyson Chandler (Dominguez, Compton, Calif.)
-- 2nd overall pick (1st round); by L.A. Clippers (traded to Chicago).
The Scoop: "The Franchise" was a two-time CalHiSports.com state player of the year who led Dominguez to the Student Sports FAB 50 national title in 2000. One of the best running big men ever, many have speculated Chandler would have been the next great UCLA big man. Realistically, college wasn't in his plans, but he must be careful because the dreaded "bust" label is starting to be heard after a slow start to his career with the Bulls.

Eddy Curry (Thornwood, South Holland, Ill.)
-- 4th overall pick (1st round); by Chicago.
The Scoop: Like Chandler, Curry would be better off playing with a better team. However, this Chicago native and one-time DePaul recruit has the added pressure of playing in his hometown. After Michael Jordan retired, it seemed the Bulls were headed for lean years regardless and Curry is now just a part of that downslide.

DeSagana Diop (Oak Hill, Mouth of Wilson, Calif.)
-- 8th overall pick (1st round); by Cleveland.
The Scoop: The first high school player to declare for the NBA Draft from this famed basketball factory, Diop has not developed into much more than a role player, which fans don't take kindly for a lottery pick in the draft.

Ousmane Cisse (St. Jude Catholic, Montgomery, Ala.)
-- 47th overall pick (2nd round); by Denver.
The Scoop: Cisse slipped into the second round as the draft unfolded and has already bounced around several leagues, including a stint with the Harlem Globetrotters. He is talented, but like most players very raw. He's a great example of a player who would have benefited from college coaching.

Tony Key (Centennial, Compton, Calif.)
-- not selected.
The Scoop: Key was not a qualifier out of high school, and eventually migrated to a junior college in Los Angeles. He was a reach to be drafted in the NBA, and he wasn't very high on many big-time college's wish lists, either.

2002:
Amare Stoudemire (Cypress Creek, Orlando, Fla.)
-- 9th overall pick (1st round); by Phoenix.
The Scoop: Amare sometimes wonders what would've been had he migrated to Memphis University along with Qyntel Woods and DaJuan Wagner. Coach John Calipari has signed many talented classes, including during this year's early signing period. The problem has been actually getting the players on campus. Stay tuned.
<!---------------Start Image-->DeAngelo Collins (Inglewood, Ca.)
-- not selected.
The Scoop: A talented young big man originally from Stockton, Ca., Collins' off-the-court problems soured NBA scouts after a much-traveled prep career and he went undrafted.

Lenny Cooke (North Regional Valley, Old Tappan, N. J.)
-- not selected.
The Scoop: A mini-celebrity on the streets on Brooklyn, Cooke was a classic example of a kid who got bad advice and whose NBA value was never as high as pre-draft Internet and newspaper predictions. He didn't play his senior year of high school because he was too old, but at one time was mentioned in the same light as King James. How quickly things can change in the world of prep to pro basketball.

2003:
LeBron James (St. Vincent-St. Mary, Akron, Oh.)
-- 1st Overall pick (1st round); by Cleveland
The Scoop: If none of the players had made the jump before him, he would have been the one people would have talked about in the same light as Malone or Garnett. He already is a world-wide celebrity, one of the league's better players and was the best prep player of this generation

Travis Outlaw (Starkville, Ms.)
-- 23rd Overall pick (first round); by Portland
The Scoop: He has not played much in two years in the league, so it's hard to gauge his status as a success or failure. He would have many a number of college coaches very happy, but doesn't excite with his game in the NBA.

Ndudi Ebi (Westbury Christian, Houston, Tx.)
-- 26th Overall pick (first round); by Minnesota
The Scoop: He is another who hasn't played much in the NBA, but a college career at Arizona University under the tutelage of Lute Olson obviously would not have hurt this young player.

Kendrick Perkins (Ozen, Beaumont, Tx.)
-- 27th Overall pick (first round); by Memphis
The Scoop: He is averaging less than four minutes per game in two NBA seasons, which doesn't help the development of any young big man. The Celtics, his current team, hopes he can make an impact on the pro level.

James Lang (Central Park Christian, Birmingham, Al.)
--48th Overall pick (second round); by New Orleans
The Scoop: One of those many fifth-year players with overestimated pro value, Lang was a project who lost over 70 pounds as a senior to attract the attention of NBA scouts. His selection position indicates NBA executives are wising up to drafting prep players in the early or middle portion of the first round.

Charlie Villanueva (Blair Academy, Blairstown, N.J.)
--not selected
The Scoop: Villanueva originally declared for the draft, but wisely did not hire an agent and eventually enrolled at Uconn. He helped the Huskies win the 2004 NCAA Title, but by no means was he a star. He, unlike many others, seems to have made a wise decision.

2004:
Dwight Howard (SW Atlanta Christian Academy, Atlanta, Ga.)
-- 1st Overall pick (first round); by Orlando
The Scoop: Howard had a 15-point, 20-rebound performance early in his NBA career for the Magic and seems well on his way to having a spectacular rookie season in the league.

Shaun Livingston (Peoria Central, Peoria, Il.)
-- 4th Overall pick (first round); by Los Angeles Clippers
The Scoop: Livingston has potential, but came into the league not physically ready for the rigors of the NBA. A recent dislocated knee cap injury means he will already lose some valuable playing time that will slow his development during his rookie year.

Robert Swift (Bakersfield, Ca.)
--12th Overall pick (first round); by Seattle
The Scoop: Like Bender, Swift greatly benefited from the post-season All-Star circuit, but hasn't played much yet. He wasn't considered a prime pro prospect before then, but a player of his size and potential is hard to pass up.

Sebastian Telfair (Lincoln, Brooklyn, N.Y.)
-- 13th Overall pick (first round); by Portland
The Scoop: "Bassey" was the Student Sports National Player of the Year over Howard, but many college basketball fans would have loved to have seen him play at least one season under Rick Pitino at Louisville This New York playground legend will need to continue develop a jump shot and build strength to be a great pro.

Al Jefferson (Prentiss, Ms.)
--15th Overall pick (first round); by Boston
The Scoop: Was an absolute force on the Mississippi prep scene and is showing signs of becoming a solid pro with the Celtics. He would have made Arkansas Razorbacks fans jump for joy if he would have enrolled in Fayetteville.

Josh Smith (Oak Hill Academy, Mouth of Wilson, Va.)
-- 17th Overall pick (first round); by Atlanta
The Scoop: Smith led the Warriors to the 2004 FAB 50 national title and like may others on this list, doesn't play enough to classify as more than a current NBA player. The Georgia native, however, would have been a college standout.

J.R. Smith (St. Benedict's Prep, Newark, N.J.)
-- 18th Overall pick (first round); by New Orleans
The Scoop: He's seeing the floor some for the Bobcats and that's a good sign. On the other end he could have been a "diaper dandy" at North Carolina and only went the pro route after a series of stellar post-season performances.

Dorell Wright (South Kent Prep, South Kent, Ct.)
--19th Overall pick (first round); by Miami
The Scoop: This Los Angeles native hasn't seen the floor yet in the NBA, but he has a great seat to watch the Dwayne Wade show every night. He hopefully can one day make a contribution to this up-and-coming franchise.

Jackie Butler (McComb, Ms.)
--not selected
The Scoop: Yet another 6-10 player who was not listed on any rankings by RivalsHoops.com last year. Hopefully his basketball career will continue even if it's not in the NBA.
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[Franklinnoble]

Jermaine O'Neal (and any other rich celebrity minority playing the race card) =
http://funfreepages.com/albums/classic/attention_whore_mime.jpg

[Gary Gorski]

This whole ploy does to me smack of the subtle racism that exists in sports like basketball. When a legend like Michael Jordan can't get a wiff of a team, after all he's done, when a sport like hockey is bringing back its old stars to own teams in droves - you know it's all about "thanks for your hard work making the rest of us rich beyond our wildest dreams. but we don't give a damn what you want, Mike."



Ummm you do know that Jordan was the president of basketball operations of the Washington Wizards, right? You know, the guy who wisely used the #1 overall pick in the draft on Kwame Brown instead of oh say someone like Pau Gasol. He then proceeded to give up that position so he could play again instead and the Wizards couldn't make the playoffs in his stint either as the pres of basketball ops or with him on the court. What more of a "wiff of a team" can he expect? There's only 30 president of basketball ops jobs in the NBA and he had the job and sucked at it.

And the NBA now has a team with a black owner as well (Robert Johnson - Charlotte) and has other former NBA players who happen to be black in prominent positions as well such as Joe Dumars, the reigning executive of the year with Detroit, his backcourt partner Zeke as GM of the Knicks and not to mention the host of former players who are coaching now or have been given a shot to coach. I'm not naive enough to say that racism doesn't exist in the sporting world but come on - the NBA is probably the most diverse of the four sports with the biggest opportunities for black men to succeed in both as players and as coaches/executives. How much black ownership is in the MLB, NFL and NHL? How many black executives or coaches are there in those sports?

This doesn't smack of racism - its David Stern not wanting his league represented by a bunch of high school kids - Stern wants the days of Magic, MJ and Bird back - he wants guys who are great players and also are mature, intelligent, well spoken people who can promote the game to the world like Magic, MJ, Dr J, Isaiah and Bird all did. He doesn't want kids who are lucky to spell their own name being the representatives of his league.

[Crapshoot]

Strange that O'Neal fails to mention his test scores were too low for college (and believe me, you don't need good scores to get into SC)... but racism makes people pay attention. If the NBA raises the limit, then it means kids like O'Neal actually have to work and be well-rounded instead of just coasting through life.

Oh, and I found a good list of kids who went from high school to the pros, with a decent synopsis on each... nice reading:


Brilliant response. Your jealousy is not a good enough reason for the kid to not be able to earn what the market value is. Seriously - NBA teams draft these kids - if they didn't think they were worth it, they wouldn't. Its that simple.

[Crapshoot]

Ummm you do know that Jordan was the president of basketball operations of the Washington Wizards, right? You know, the guy who wisely used the #1 overall pick in the draft on Kwame Brown instead of oh say someone like Pau Gasol. He then proceeded to give up that position so he could play again instead and the Wizards couldn't make the playoffs in his stint either as the pres of basketball ops or with him on the court. What more of a "wiff of a team" can he expect? There's only 30 president of basketball ops jobs in the NBA and he had the job and sucked at it.

And the NBA now has a team with a black owner as well (Robert Johnson - Charlotte) and has other former NBA players who happen to be black in prominent positions as well such as Joe Dumars, the reigning executive of the year with Detroit, his backcourt partner Zeke as GM of the Knicks and not to mention the host of former players who are coaching now or have been given a shot to coach. I'm not naive enough to say that racism doesn't exist in the sporting world but come on - the NBA is probably the most diverse of the four sports with the biggest opportunities for black men to succeed in both as players and as coaches/executives. How much black ownership is in the MLB, NFL and NHL? How many black executives or coaches are there in those sports?

This doesn't smack of racism - its David Stern not wanting his league represented by a bunch of high school kids - Stern wants the days of Magic, MJ and Bird back - he wants guys who are great players and also are mature, intelligent, well spoken people who can promote the game to the world like Magic, MJ, Dr J, Isaiah and Bird all did. He doesn't want kids who are lucky to spell their own name being the representatives of his league.

Its David Stern not wanting to pay the cost of developing the kids talent, and hoping college can do it for him. And why the dig at a players spelling ? The way I look at it Gary, he can not spell and earn more in a year than you might in a lifetime because of his skill set. This just smacks of the "Screw one group over Because I don't think they deserve it" attitude. I understand your point about the effect on the quality of play- I just don't think screwing kids over is the way to do it.

[Danny]

People need to stop acting like they know what's best for everyone. These 18 year olds are adults. If they can decide to serve the milatary, they should be able to decide whether they should go into the NBA.

Perhaps revamping college athletics so that these players don't get away with everything would be a better place to start? Sending them from one flawed system to another is not going to make them better people.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Jermaine O Neal = why kids should go take Phil 101.

[Gary Gorski]

Its David Stern not wanting to pay the cost of developing the kids talent, and hoping college can do it for him. And why the dig at a players spelling ? The way I look at it Gary, he can not spell and earn more in a year than you might in a lifetime because of his skill set. This just smacks of the "Screw one group over Because I don't think they deserve it" attitude. I understand your point about the effect on the quality of play- I just don't think screwing kids over is the way to do it.

You're off base here - if you gave David Stern another Michael Jordan at age 18 (which may very well be LeBron) he would JUMP at the chance to bring him into the NBA and develop him. David Stern would develop kids from 12 if he knew they were a) going to have massive talent and b) be intelligent, well spoken, well received, marketable individuals. Read b) very carefully - this is NOT what most of the 18 year olds jumping into the league are.

Stern does not want to be running a playground - he wants to run a professional organization. You're right about him wanting college to develop the kids - but its not their basketball skills he wants developed. He does not want the perception that the NBA is a bunch of punk millionaire kids. Tell me something - why when they are running the playoff ads do they highlight and hype LeBron and the Cavaliers who will be lucky to hold on and even make the playoffs yet don't even mention the Nuggets who have been probably the hottest team in the 2nd half of the season? Maybe its because LeBron has the "Jordan image" and Melo has become portrayed as a whining brat. Carmello Anthony has alot of talent but who is at the front of the advertising line? James, Garnett, Duncan, Shaq - these are the guys Stern wants as the faces of his league. He loves the high school/early college jump guys who turn out to be great players and media darlings - he just wants a way to weed out the rest or give them time to change their persona (eg grow up) before jumping to the NBA.

I'm all for a free market system and if these kids can get the dough then more power to them. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't stay in school when there's a million bucks calling my name either. But I also am looking at this from the business standpoint of running the NBA and it becomes really bad for business if my league is seen as just a bunch of overpaid kids.

I also don't think its a good idea for most of these kids making the jump and it has nothing to do with me thinking they don't deserve it - a guy like LeBron will make more in one year then I will in my entire lifetime probably with his endorsements. But I'm willing to bet that over my working lifetime I'll make more money with a masters degree than a kid who skips college, gets drafted and flames out (and certainly more than the ones who don't even get drafted). The LeBrons of the world will be fine - but they are few.

I think the kid who forgoes his opportunity for a college education and degree in order to get picked in the 2nd round and cut and gets nothing or the kid who doesn't get drafted at all is screwing the kid over much much more than making him go to college for free for two years or letting him play in a minor league and make some money if he wouldn't qualify to play in college or didn't want to attend college. I think expecting an 18 year old to adjust to being given a pile of money and then having it taken away after 3 years leaving him with nothing at all is much worse.

[rexallllsc]

Strange that O'Neal fails to mention his test scores were too low for college (and believe me, you don't need good scores to get into SC)... but racism makes people pay attention. If the NBA raises the limit, then it means kids like O'Neal actually have to work and be well-rounded instead of just coasting through life.


You have to go to college to be well-rounded? C'mon now...

Sidenote: If you got offered a multi-million dollar job out of HS, would you take it? After all, college will always be there...your skills/body may not.

[Danny]

Should my uncle have been forced to graduate college? He is now one of the most successful insurance salemen in Southern California and owns a two million dollar home. How about my dad? He is a very successful in the video industry.

Yeah, I am sure college is right for everyone :rolleyes:

[Franklinnoble]

Should my uncle have been forced to graduate college? He is now one of the most successful insurance salemen in Southern California and owns a two million dollar home. How about my dad? He is a very successful in the adult video industry.

Yeah, I am sure college is right for everyone :rolleyes:
http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Danny]

Wow, I sure didn't make that too difficult :)

[Samdari]

I was prepared to be all irate and wound up about what O'Neal was going to say, but this quote......sure makes you think.

Actually, what it makes me think, is why did he bring up race and ruin a perfectly good argument against the age limit.

[Warhammer]

My .02...

First, O'Neal should be smacked around for calling this racism. This is nothing of the sort.

Second, this is a business decision by Stern to try and bring back viewers that are leaving. He wants to bring back the days of huge growth in league viewership that he had in the 80s.

Third, this helps make the NBDL a legitimate minor league. This works two ways, 1) you can teach the kids how to use their money and how to handle the lifestyle. 2) They can teach the players how to play fundamental basketball.

I challenge anyone to go back and watch some 80s basketball. The offenses were amazing! If you left someone open from 10-15 feet, they would knock down the open shot. Today, players are either dunking or hitting 3s. Who are the stars? Those that play fundamental ball and can hit the midrange jumper.

[wishbone]

Screw the age limit, the worst thing about the NBA is guaranteed money. Allow teams to get rid of players and the "quality of the game" will work itself out. How much dead money do teams have? Look at Portland; what a nightmare...

[Antmeister]

Stern wants the days of Magic, MJ and Bird back - he wants guys who are great players and also are mature, intelligent, well spoken people who can promote the game to the world like Magic, MJ, Dr J, Isaiah and Bird all did. He doesn't want kids who are lucky to spell their own name being the representatives of his league.

Something about this quote bothers me. While I sort of understand what you are saying, I don't understand how a college education make you a better spokesman than someone who doesn't. Baseball has a number of representatives without a college education who have represented the game well. And Kevin Garnett seems to do a good job representing the game at this point. I hope I didn't misrepresent this paragraph, but this is what I am reading from this statement.

[Desnudo]

Lebron seems like a an excellent representative of the game.

[rexallllsc]

I think people are under the assumption that a lot of these guys, once they're in school, start caring about school. Does anyone think that college made Allen Iverson less of a character? Or that Kevin Garnett not going to college makes him dumber? Did Stephon Marbury learn anything @ GaTech?

I don't get it because what, 5 or 6 HS kids get drafted every year? A handful of college Frosh?

[Klinglerware]

I think people are under the assumption that a lot of these guys, once they're in school, start caring about school. Does anyone think that college made Allen Iverson less of a character? Or that Kevin Garnett not going to college makes him dumber? Did Stephon Marbury learn anything @ GaTech?


Yeah, and Iverson went to ivy-caliber Georgetown...

That's a good point- being enrolled in college doesn't necessarily mean you are going to learn anything there. Hell, there are a lot of college graduates I know who really didn't learn anything more than how to party...

[rexallllsc]

Yeah, and Iverson went to ivy-caliber Georgetown...

That's a good point- being enrolled in college doesn't necessarily mean you are going to learn anything there. Hell, there are a lot of college graduates I know who really didn't learn anything more than how to party...

Right. So if the NBA is going to make this age-limit, they better expand the NBDL, and make about 6 more rounds of the draft...at which point we'd be seeing even MORE HS players go pro.

[Klinglerware]

And don't forget, the NCAA is also cracking down on academic performance. I would venture to guess that there will be a lot more college coaches who will think twice about offering scholarships to players who are academic risks or are likely to jump ship after a year or two.

[st.cronin]

And don't forget, the NCAA is also cracking down on academic performance.


hahahahahahaha

[Klinglerware]

hahahahahahaha

The APR system apparently has teeth--if you can't keep your players eligible, if you can't graduate them, and if they leave school without graduating, you lose scholarships and playoff participation. A very controversial key component of the formula is players leaving school--you are penalized if your player leaves for the pros, even if he was still academically on track. This is why it's possible that schools may start staying away from the "one year and out" players--no matter how well they do in school, the team will incur a hit in their APR once they leave the program...

[Klinglerware]

My .02...

First, O'Neal should be smacked around for calling this racism. This is nothing of the sort.


Yes and no. I agree that the idea of an age-limit is not a racist idea. I do however see why he would think that the public reaction to the issue might be impacted by racism. People are most riled up about athletes turning professional before finishing (or even starting) college in two sports: basketball and football. Those two sports happen to have among the largest percentage of African-American participation at the professional level. The public doesn't seem to care about baseball, hockey, soccer, and olympic athletes who do likewise.

It may or may not be a racial issue. But when people are strangely silent when it comes to athletes in other sports who chose to forgo college or the influx of european basketball stars who didn't have a college basketball system either, I can see why O'Neil can be left to wonder.

[Galaxy]

What would an age limit due to the international players? These guys are pretty developed, spending the previous few years playing pro ball.

Here is an artcle from Mark Cuban: http://www.blogmaverick.com/entry/6832728850549251/

[Galaxy]

Dola...

Does O'Neil realize that minor league players in hockey and baseball take years to reach the pros? I hate the whole, "you can join the military, ect." Does he know that you have the choice to join the military. Please let me know when a NBA player decides to give up the basketball and millions to join the military. So, because someone can join the military, we should make them nurses, doctors, ect?

[Klinglerware]

Dola...

Does O'Neil realize that minor league players in hockey and baseball take years to reach the pros?

But minor league hockey and baseball players are professionals. They are obviously not paid as well as the players in the top league, but they are being paid to ply their craft.

It's true that most hockey and baseball players do not reach the top league right away, but it does happen once in awhile. Also, there are a few teenagers who play professional/world cup level soccer. All these players have the opportunity to play professionally if they are good enough... I don't see why this opportunity should be restricted for basketball players who are good enough.

[Neon_Chaos]

Dola...
I hate the whole, "you can join the military, ect." Does he know that you have the choice to join the military. Please let me know when a NBA player decides to give up the basketball and millions to join the military.

O'neal's argument is that if at 18 you have the choice to join the military and kill/be killed, fight a war... then you should also be able to choose to take your wares into the draft without a college education, and have the chance to earn money and play ball.

So, because someone can join the military, we should make them nurses, doctors, ect?

Those are skill-related jobs that require the necessary college education. Playing basketball does not. I don't see the connection.

[Gary Gorski]

Something about this quote bothers me. While I sort of understand what you are saying, I don't understand how a college education make you a better spokesman than someone who doesn't. Baseball has a number of representatives without a college education who have represented the game well. And Kevin Garnett seems to do a good job representing the game at this point. I hope I didn't misrepresent this paragraph, but this is what I am reading from this statement.

Its not that players who go to college are smarter and players who jump from hs are dumber - Im sure you could easily round up people who never went to college yet are smarter than people who did. What going to college does is expose these guys to the pressures of the media, the fame, the PR - everything but the money (except for the illegal money players get - yeah, shocking, right?). These are skills Stern does not want to waste time and money teaching when there's already a perfectly good system in place for that.

You're right, Garnett is an excellent representative of the game - which is why I mentioned him earlier in this thread of being just that. It took him a few years to develop that persona though. LeBron is the ultimate exception - what about a guy like Kwame Brown. What if he spends two years at Florida a) getting to play and b) playing in the national spotlight? Maybe he's ready to play and be the face of a franchise when he's drafted #1 two years later instead of being nothing but a dissapointment in his rookie year and then of course overshadowed by Jordan's return in his second year. Instead, four years later, he's just now starting to show signs of progress but you don't hear any buzz about him anymore - to Stern that's one more marketable player down the drain.

What you have to remember about Stern and the NBA is that he built the NBA on individual players (which also caused team basketball to cease to exist for the most part). The other major sports do not market individuals as heavily as the NBA does so Stern needs players in his league that are not only phenomenal talents but also have maturity, intellect and carry themselves well with the media. Marbury was brought up in an above post - look at the marketing effort the league puts out on his behalf...very little if any - and he plays in one of the top two markets in the league. Its even true with Iverson - the only reason he gets any pub from the league is because he's impossible to ignore not only because of his off court antics but he's just a phenomenal player who's an MVP candidate. Still he doesn't get anywhere near the face time that guys like Garnett, James and Duncan do because he doesn't have the image Stern wants.

The height of the NBA's popularity came when Stern had stars who were not only amazing talents but also appeared to be very warm, friendly, well spoken media darlings. There's the old saying you only get one chance to make a first impression - these kids from high school 99% of the time are not ready for the media, the hype, the PR - if they're going to screw up and learn how to deal with it I am willing to bet Stern would much rather they learn that skill in college and be ready to be used as a marketing tool for the NBA when they are drafted. LeBron is a massive exception because he dealt with all the media stuff in his JR and SR years of high school. Look at the amount of press Carmello got in his rookie year - it was all LeBron and Melo...now its just LeBron because Melo spent his summer whining about the USA basketball team and spent the start of the season whining about the Nuggets and their former coach. And look who took his place in the spotlight - Dwayne Wade - a guy who spent some time in college and appears to be a very mature individual with great game - exactly what Stern looks for in making his next league superstar.

[Easy Mac]

Those are skill-related jobs that require the necessary college education. Playing basketball does not. I don't see the connection.
Being a doctor doesn't require a college education naturally. It is a restriction imposed by the body that governs the licensing of doctors. If they didn't do that, theoretically anyone with a library card could get a license if they tried... I don't see how making college a pre-requisite for the NBA would be any different for the NBA.

[Young Drachma]

Its not that players who go to college are smarter and players who jump from hs are dumber - Im sure you could easily round up people who never went to college yet are smarter than people who did. What going to college does is expose these guys to the pressures of the media, the fame, the PR - everything but the money (except for the illegal money players get - yeah, shocking, right?). These are skills Stern does not want to waste time and money teaching when there's already a perfectly good system in place for that.

You're right, Garnett is an excellent representative of the game - which is why I mentioned him earlier in this thread of being just that. It took him a few years to develop that persona though. LeBron is the ultimate exception - what about a guy like Kwame Brown. What if he spends two years at Florida a) getting to play and b) playing in the national spotlight? Maybe he's ready to play and be the face of a franchise when he's drafted #1 two years later instead of being nothing but a dissapointment in his rookie year and then of course overshadowed by Jordan's return in his second year. Instead, four years later, he's just now starting to show signs of progress but you don't hear any buzz about him anymore - to Stern that's one more marketable player down the drain.

What you have to remember about Stern and the NBA is that he built the NBA on individual players (which also caused team basketball to cease to exist for the most part). The other major sports do not market individuals as heavily as the NBA does so Stern needs players in his league that are not only phenomenal talents but also have maturity, intellect and carry themselves well with the media. Marbury was brought up in an above post - look at the marketing effort the league puts out on his behalf...very little if any - and he plays in one of the top two markets in the league. Its even true with Iverson - the only reason he gets any pub from the league is because he's impossible to ignore not only because of his off court antics but he's just a phenomenal player who's an MVP candidate. Still he doesn't get anywhere near the face time that guys like Garnett, James and Duncan do because he doesn't have the image Stern wants.

The height of the NBA's popularity came when Stern had stars who were not only amazing talents but also appeared to be very warm, friendly, well spoken media darlings. There's the old saying you only get one chance to make a first impression - these kids from high school 99% of the time are not ready for the media, the hype, the PR - if they're going to screw up and learn how to deal with it I am willing to bet Stern would much rather they learn that skill in college and be ready to be used as a marketing tool for the NBA when they are drafted. LeBron is a massive exception because he dealt with all the media stuff in his JR and SR years of high school. Look at the amount of press Carmello got in his rookie year - it was all LeBron and Melo...now its just LeBron because Melo spent his summer whining about the USA basketball team and spent the start of the season whining about the Nuggets and their former coach. And look who took his place in the spotlight - Dwayne Wade - a guy who spent some time in college and appears to be a very mature individual with great game - exactly what Stern looks for in making his next league superstar.

The argument is then, that these people need more "polish" and that college would give them that. But is it college's job to do that? Uh, look at Iverson. He's not marketable for the NBA, but that doesn't seem to stop Reebok from using him.

So he's not the most socially graceful and maybe some of these kids - millionaire kids - aren't the brightest. So what.

If the league is so concerned with their "image" or "development," they could surely hire people to work with them in the off-season or as part of a mandatory rookie program (they already have one, but a better one) that discussing speaking skills, hiring them consultants and personal tutors to help them out if necessary.

But no one worries about that. It's all about David Stern, his billionaire, deep pocketed owners and such alike.

And why are the Europeans any better? They're not. You mean to tell me that Darko - who was a pro from a young age - would not have benefitted from being the "man" in college? Of course he would've. But he had a family he wanted to help and coming here did that. I think no one ought to prevent these kids from doing that.

Hell, even in the service or whatever - you pay your dues, train, learn your job and eventually, you're called on to step up. It's no different in sports.

An interesting parallel to this argument is Michelle Wie, the golfing prodigy. People are criticizing her hard for playing tons of pro tournaments, via sponsors exemptions, rather than playing the junior golf circuit. When she does play the junior golf circuit, she loses matches.

They say that she ought to play more with people who own age to learn how to win. Tiger said it was critical for him and his development.

But I think Michelle Wie is even further along in her development than say, Tiger was at his age. She's not a comparison that we can parallel. To say she ought to go to college or play with her own peers because "it'd be better," seems completely short-sighted to me.

What she ought to do - and high schoolers too - is be smart, seek out good advice and do what they think is best for their future. And if that means, playing in the professional game at a young age, then so be it. If they turn out not to be as successful as they might have been in college - that's the risk they take.

But I think it's a choice that they get to make. And no one ought to make it for them. Especially when in the NBA, it's proven that high school players can develop into stars and talented contributors.

As for the NBDL, that's a different issue that I guess I can understand making it a "real" minor league, but...that seems to be a separate issue to actually preventing players from going to the majors.

In other sports, players - if they're talented enough - go straight to the majors. If anything, a minor league might encourage more players to come out straight from high school, which of course, would improve the NBDL since it's mostly washed up players now.

But a limit seems ill advised and I don't see it getting passed.

[Chief Rum]

The argument is then, that these people need more "polish" and that college would give them that.

Wow, do they teach Polish in college? I didn't know that.

(sorry, in a silly mood, and, hell, this is a thread on racism!)

[Abe Sargent]

As a professional who works in a collegiate residence hall, I chastise my staff for calling residents "boys" "girls" or "kids." I think its really pejorative to call someone legally an adult a "kid." Someone who has graduated from HS and is 18 years of age is NOT a kid. Someone in college, at least 18, is NOT a kid. Period. It's thinking like that that is the worst thing in this argument, not which side is right or wrong.

-Anxiety

[Danny]

Dola...

Does O'Neil realize that minor league players in hockey and baseball take years to reach the pros?

Wow, someone should tell this to Ilya Kovalchuk, all those goals scored as a teenager should be wiped out.

And how dare Wayne Gretzy put up 250 points before his 20th birthday. Give them back!

[Crapshoot]

Wow, someone should tell this to Ilya Kovalchuk, all those goals scored as a teenager should be wiped out.

And how dare Wayne Gretzy put up 250 points before his 20th birthday. Give them back!

Hey Hey- what the hell are you trying to do, introduce facts into this discussion ?

[Galaxy]

O'neal's argument is that if at 18 you have the choice to join the military and kill/be killed, fight a war... then you should also be able to choose to take your wares into the draft without a college education, and have the chance to earn money and play ball.



Those are skill-related jobs that require the necessary college education. Playing basketball does not. I don't see the connection.

I hear you. I am just hate it when people use that whole military argument if need to go for the kill. But to join the military, you need to be of a certain physcial shape and mental capacity. Also, it's a choice.

As for every one good high school player, you have thousands of more. And usually, it takes those high school players to develop a few years. I'm not against an age limit, personally, because the international players are pretty developed at that age. Just they are experienced to the pro level, and much more developed. I think they should get rid of the guaranteed contracts. Also, in baseball, you do not have to declare for the draft. You are drafted, and that team holds your rights for a year.

[Klinglerware]

I hear you. I am just hate it when people use that whole military argument if need to go for the kill. But to join the military, you need to be of a certain physcial shape and mental capacity. Also, it's a choice.

As for every one good high school player, you have thousands of more. And usually, it takes those high school players to develop a few years. I'm not against an age limit, personally, because the international players are pretty developed at that age. Just they are experienced to the pro level, and much more developed. I think they should get rid of the guaranteed contracts. Also, in baseball, you do not have to declare for the draft. You are drafted, and that team holds your rights for a year.

I'm still wondering why American high school basketball players should be barred from playing professionally upon completion of high school when athletes from no other sport (save football) have this restriction. Young basketball players from abroad do not have this restriction.

The NBA scouting system does not operate in the dark--if a high school player who declares is good enough, he will get drafted. If not, he won't. If the NBA team is drafting on a player's potential--that's their business and I don't see the problem of letting the marketplace decide who deserves to be an NBA player.

If the problem is that a player, once declared, forfeits his amateur status then perhaps the NBA should go to the MLB system where college eligibility is not forfeited until a contract is actually signed...

[rexallllsc]

Last 5 NBA ROY:
1999-00 - Elton Brand, Chicago (tie), Steve Francis, Houston
2000-01 - Mike Miller, Orlando
2001-02 - Pau Gasol, Memphis
2002-03 - Amare Stoudemire, Phoenix
2003-04 - LeBron James, Cleveland

3 of them never played college ball. The two most recent came directly from HS, and are two of the brightest stars in the NBA.

Just sayin

[st.cronin]

If the problem is that a player, once declared, forfeits his amateur status then perhaps the NBA should go to the MLB system where college eligibility is not forfeited until a contract is actually signed...

I would like to see this change. Actually, in hockey, a player can be drafted and still play several years of college.

[Gary Gorski]

2001-02 - Pau Gasol, Memphis



Also drafted before and after him :

1. Kwame Brown
2. Tyson Chandler
4. Eddy Curry
8. Sagana Diop

1 has been a complete bust, two are extremely average and Curry has decent PPG numbers but is certainly not the next great post player in the NBA.

While Amare and LeBron have been outstanding there's been a good deal more who are average, crappy or don't even make a team in the first place.

[Gary Gorski]

I'm still wondering why American high school basketball players should be barred from playing professionally upon completion of high school when athletes from no other sport (save football) have this restriction. Young basketball players from abroad do not have this restriction.

Barred professionally? You mean they wouldn't be able to play in the CBA or go overseas if they don't go to college either? Barred from the biggest and best professional league, yes - barred professionally, no.

The NBA scouting system does not operate in the dark--if a high school player who declares is good enough, he will get drafted. If not, he won't. If the NBA team is drafting on a player's potential--that's their business and I don't see the problem of letting the marketplace decide who deserves to be an NBA player.

One problem is that its becoming an expensive marketplace for the teams not to mention watering down the play of the league. Teams that were once 9-10 deep now go 7-8 deep cause 3 spots are filled by kids who have tons of potential yet are not ready for the NBA. Those kids are being paid millions to be developed and in the process are gaining "bird years" meaning that if a team does spend 5-15 million over 3-4 years developing a player to the point where he's finally ready to contribute then they're looking at a player eligible for the league maximum for his experience level as opposed to drafting him at that point and getting to start him on the rookie scale then.

Just out of curiosity, do you think the NFL should not have an age limit since its barring kids from playing in the biggest professional football league in the world?

[Klinglerware]

While Amare and LeBron have been outstanding there's been a good deal more who are average, crappy or don't even make a team in the first place.

But the same can be said for most people drafted, regardless of the age at which they were drafted.

[Gary Gorski]

But the same can be said for most people drafted, regardless of the age at which they were drafted.

Very true - so if we already have a large pool of those players, some of which have their college degrees and most of which at least have some college credits under their belt so they could get a degree then why add more people to that pool? Would LeBron or Amare not have been drafted when they hit 20? The talent is still going to get to the league and the ones who aren't going to make it still aren't going to make it - but at least they could have some paid education to show for it instead of nothing at all.

[Klinglerware]

Just out of curiosity, do you think the NFL should not have an age limit since its barring kids from playing in the biggest professional football league in the world?

Yes. They should get rid of any overt age limit--again let the marketplace decide. If an NFL team wants to roll the dice and risk a draft pick on a player not ready for prime time, that should be their prerogative. I doubt that many teams would do so...

[rexallllsc]

Also drafted before and after him :

1. Kwame Brown
2. Tyson Chandler
4. Eddy Curry
8. Sagana Diop

1 has been a complete bust, two are extremely average and Curry has decent PPG numbers but is certainly not the next great post player in the NBA.

While Amare and LeBron have been outstanding there's been a good deal more who are average, crappy or don't even make a team in the first place.

I'll take Curry and Chandler on my team.

Brown is a bust, yeah. So was Ed O'Bannon. A 4-year college player who was an All-American, title game MVP, Pac-10 MVP, one of the few players to have his # retired at Ucla (others: 25 Gail Goodrich, 32 Bill Walton, 33 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (Lew Alcindor), 35 Sidney Wicks, 42 Walt Hazzard and 54 Marques Johnson). He scored 30 and 17 in the NCAA title game. A truly dominant player. Sucked in the NBA.

You can find just as many really good 4 year college players who are no good as you can HS kids who declare. Hell, looking over the list at kids who have gone pro from HS over the last few years, you're just as likely to find a good players as if you drafted a college guy.

[Loki]

A developmental league (or minor league) for the NBA would fix all these problems.

[Crapshoot]

What it comes down to (from my perspective) is the condescention from people who think they know better, and are better suited to make these decisions for the players in question. Busts or not- its their livelyhood, and maintaining the morass of crap that is the NCAA is hardly a good reason for them to serve as free labor. At 18, restricting their employment for no reason other than age is ridiculous. The fact that this beef is primarily an issue in basketball and football, while no one complains in hockey or baseball, does provide a rather unfortunate circumstance where the correlation of objection to race is high. Now correlation is not causation, but its certainly worrysome. What O'neal said, if you actually read it, is he's commenting on that correlation.

[Klinglerware]

What it comes down to (from my perspective) is the condescention from people who think they know better, and are better suited to make these decisions for the players in question. Busts or not- its their livelyhood, and maintaining the morass of crap that is the NCAA is hardly a good reason for them to serve as free labor. At 18, restricting their employment for no reason other than age is ridiculous. The fact that this beef is primarily an issue in basketball and football, while no one complains in hockey or baseball, does provide a rather unfortunate circumstance where the correlation of objection to race is high. Now correlation is not causation, but its certainly worrysome. What O'neal said, if you actually read it, is he's commenting on that correlation.

My thoughts exactly on both issues. As for the race issue, whether it is a real phenomenon or not, O'Neal is raising an interesting observation on an issue that directly affects his livelihood. It is unfortunate that his detractors are lambasting O'Neal for playing a "race card", when it would be more instructive for them to actually try to factually refute what O'Neal is saying.

[Easy Mac]

What it comes down to (from my perspective) is the condescention from people who think they know better, and are better suited to make these decisions for the players in question. Busts or not- its their livelyhood, and maintaining the morass of crap that is the NCAA is hardly a good reason for them to serve as free labor. At 18, restricting their employment for no reason other than age is ridiculous. The fact that this beef is primarily an issue in basketball and football, while no one complains in hockey or baseball, does provide a rather unfortunate circumstance where the correlation of objection to race is high. Now correlation is not causation, but its certainly worrysome. What O'neal said, if you actually read it, is he's commenting on that correlation.
And you act like you know better by stating your opinion... don't take try and take the high road when there isn't one. Your still missing the point that there is no minor league in football or basketball. There's no where for them to go. Obviously if there was, this would be a pointless conversation. Darko Milicic is white... he's been a bust so far. What has Nikoloz Tskitishvili done so far? 4 foreigners under 20 were drafted in 2003. Andris Biedrins and Pavel Podkolzine, have they played yet? Its not just a racial thing. There's plenty of white guys coming over from Europe who would get cut out. But they don't come over because they aren't ready and need time to develop. There's pro leagues here in the states guys could play in if they wanted to go pro before 20. They're probably as good as some of the pro leagues in Europe... heck these guys could go to Europe if they wanted to go pro so badly. Its not like their only option is college or bust.

The point of the cap is to save owners from eachother. This isn't like a normal market, where people can just be poached from other organizations at a whim. Guys are locked up or 4 years in the NBA. There's no reason right now not to draft an 18 year old on the chance he'll break out, because you'll have him the next 4 years. If you don't someone else will (and if they all don't, then its labeled coersion). Its just a smart business sense to implement a rule in the market to safe the market from itself. And if you can get the workers to go along (the union, which wants to protect its own), then its even better. Why shell out millions to develop talent (through a minor league or guaranteed contracts), when there's other people who are willing to do it for you.

[Gary Gorski]

You can find just as many really good 4 year college players who are no good as you can HS kids who declare. Hell, looking over the list at kids who have gone pro from HS over the last few years, you're just as likely to find a good players as if you drafted a college guy.

Yup, in fact because of the numbers you can find alot more 4 year college players who are just as bad as some of the HS kids who declare - the difference is the 4 year college guy who doesn't make it goes and finds a job paying him maybe 30-40k a year since he has a degree while the hs kid who didn't make it has what? That's not to say that because you don't have a college education you won't amount to anything but its sure going to be a lot more difficult road to travel in most cases. It's also kind of pointless to argue using 4 year college players - what Stern wants is the age limit of 20 so they wouldn't have to attend four years, just two. Very rarely now are you going to find a 4 year college player that is anything special - if he's an elite talent he's in the draft by age 21 in almost all cases.

I'm not making the argument that HS kids can't play in the NBA - if I was drafting a team I'd take LeBron over anyone else in the NBA today because he's so good and just a kid still. But I am in favor of some measure of restriction being taken both to prevent kids from skipping college on a hope and prayer that they get drafted and also because I'm tired of seeing crappy basketball in the NBA. How good could guys like O'Neal, Kwame Brown, Chandler and others have been if they would have spent even one year in college instead of just being thrown right into the fire? How much better could Milicic be getting if he actually was playing rather than sitting on his ass for two years?

We're supposed to be watching the premier basketball players in the world playing here - instead we're getting teams flooded with players that might be good enough to play at that level some day and yet are already taking up a roster spot and paycheck at that level.

[Gary Gorski]

What it comes down to (from my perspective) is the condescention from people who think they know better, and are better suited to make these decisions for the players in question. Busts or not- its their livelyhood, and maintaining the morass of crap that is the NCAA is hardly a good reason for them to serve as free labor. At 18, restricting their employment for no reason other than age is ridiculous. The fact that this beef is primarily an issue in basketball and football, while no one complains in hockey or baseball, does provide a rather unfortunate circumstance where the correlation of objection to race is high. Now correlation is not causation, but its certainly worrysome. What O'neal said, if you actually read it, is he's commenting on that correlation.

Explain how there is racism at work here. Does Stern's proposal say that only 18 and 19 year old black players from poor neighborhoods will be denied entry into the draft? It's ANYONE under 20 - no matter what color your skin is or what side of town you come from. Will it affect more black players than white? Of course it will simply because the number of talented black players FAR outweighs the number of white players. Are you suggesting that if 70% of the league was white that this would not be an issue? That's bull. What's next - an argument that nobody was trying to drop an age restriction 50 years ago when the league was mostly white?

You know why its not an issue in baseball and hockey? Because there's a minor league system where teams stick these guys, pay them peanuts and hope they develop and if not, no big deal. In the NBA you draft one of these guys in round 1 and you are stuck with his guaranteed salary for the next 3 years and there is no way in hell the union is going to give up guaranteed salaries when bargaining. This being a racial issue is bull - you do realize that the highest paid players in the league are black. That roughly 70% of the league is black. That the most heavily promoted players are black. That the rule would apply to everyone. That these black players would be able to enter the league and make their millions when they are 20 the same as anyone else.

If the rule is setup to be that you have to attend two years of college before entering the draft then I could see possible racism if there's an issue with ability to pass exams to enter college but its not - its simply age. If they don't want to or don't qualify to go to college they can play ball somewhere else (and get paid) for two years and then enter the draft. It's wrong to restrict a person's ability to work - if there was nowhere else to play ball that might be one thing but there are plenty of other leagues that pay players - all that is being restricted (and temporarily at that) is entry into the best paying job not any paying job.

[rexallllsc]

Yup, in fact because of the numbers you can find alot more 4 year college players who are just as bad as some of the HS kids who declare - the difference is the 4 year college guy who doesn't make it goes and finds a job paying him maybe 30-40k a year since he has a degree while the hs kid who didn't make it has what?

Yeah, maybe. But shouldn't that be the kids choice? Are we forcing people to go to college now? Not to mention, if a kid is good enough to get drafted, I don't think a 30-40k/year job is really going to matter. Even if he gets cut he can go overseas and make money.

Let's not even factor in some of the athletes I know who went to 4 year schools, graduated, and can't hold a 35k/year job.

[Gary Gorski]

Yeah, maybe. But shouldn't that be the kids choice? Are we forcing people to go to college now? Not to mention, if a kid is good enough to get drafted, I don't think a 30-40k/year job is really going to matter. Even if he gets cut he can go overseas and make money.

Let's not even factor in some of the athletes I know who went to 4 year schools, graduated, and can't hold a 35k/year job.

Nobody's forcing anyone to go to school - they can go work at McDonald's for two years and then enter the draft if they want. Or don't work at all, hire a personal coach and work with him for two years every day preparing for the draft.

You're right, if he's good enough to play then who cares what kind of degree he has or if he even has a degree or if he's even set foot on a college campus. If he can play then he's going to be a millionaire but if he can't make it then he's got nothing. Whether people you know who graduated with degrees can hold down jobs or not at least they have a degree and can still get an interview for a job much more frequently than someone who's never been to college.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the LeBrons making the jump but there's alot of kids it's not the right decision for especially when they don't even make it at all. It's hard to argue it was the wrong choice for a Kwame Brown - he may have stunted his basketball development and may never be the player he could have been but he's a very wealthy man at least. But for the kid who doesn't get drafted - then what?

Look at the drinking laws we have - you have to be 21 to drink (legally). Why is that a law? You mean there's no 18 year old person out there who is mature and responsible enough to handle a beer? The law is there because there's a much greater chance of someone under that age not being able to be responsible with it. Are 21 year olds irresponsible with alcohol? Of course some are but so are some 40 year olds. The government just felt that 21 was an appropriate cut off point which is what Stern wants to do. Maybe he feels that players who are 20 and older are more mature and better equipped to handle the NBA lifestyle on average and that two years of a paid education for anyone who wants to take advantage of it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for these kids even if one or two of them is ready at 18 to take on the NBA and NBA lifestyle.

[stevew]

What would be wrong with the Developmental league taking kids as young as 15 or 16 and making it into a truly u-20 league. Figure we let actors act at young ages with tutors, why not potentially elite basketball players. A true "cream of the crop" type prospect would be better served by playing professionally at a young age, plus he could make money that may help his family. 2 years in the D-League or 20 years old wouldnt be a bad NBA system, i think tho, that you need to give the truly talented kids a shot at an earlier age than HS senior.

[Gary Gorski]

What would be wrong with the Developmental league taking kids as young as 15 or 16 and making it into a truly u-20 league. Figure we let actors act at young ages with tutors, why not potentially elite basketball players. A true "cream of the crop" type prospect would be better served by playing professionally at a young age, plus he could make money that may help his family. 2 years in the D-League or 20 years old wouldnt be a bad NBA system, i think tho, that you need to give the truly talented kids a shot at an earlier age than HS senior.

Why not do like the Soviets used to do - lets grab these kids when they're 2 or 3 and train them to do nothing but play basketball. If LeBron James gets some woman pregnant maybe a team can draft the rights to the baby just in case he turns out to be LeBron 2.0

Do you know how many "cream of the crop" prospects have fallen by the wayside? There are hundreds and hundreds of them for every one LeBron James. Its bad enough that the shoe companies and what not are recruiting 8th graders now, we don't need to open the floodgates further. It's one thing to encourage players to skip college but we certainly don't need more people dropping out of high school and that's exactly what you're going to have happen.

Your actors analogy is not helping your argument here - how many of the "elite" child actors have had normal lives? What about all the ones who thought they could make it but never got a role? Where are they? How many are there?

We need more doctors, teachers, police, etc in the world today not more kids who dropped out of high school to chase after a pipe dream. Do you really think that for kids who are given the message that basketball is their only way out of poverty and the streets are going to pay any attention at all to a tutor if they are playing semi-pro ball at age 15? There's a lot of HS kids who do only enough to stay eligible for the team as it is now - we don't need to further encourage them to ignore learning anything other than a crossover dribble.

[rexallllsc]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the LeBrons making the jump but there's alot of kids it's not the right decision for especially when they don't even make it at all. It's hard to argue it was the wrong choice for a Kwame Brown - he may have stunted his basketball development and may never be the player he could have been but he's a very wealthy man at least. But for the kid who doesn't get drafted - then what?


For the kid who doesn't get drafted, then bummer for him. Why does everyone want life to be so isolated for these kids? Even the kids who make the biggest mistakes coming out (see: Korleone Young) can go overseas and make a nice living (six-figures).

[st.cronin]

This whole problem could be solved by requiring teams to carry at least 4 white players (1 of whom is American), at least 1 asian player, and at least 1 gay player.

[wishbone]

This whole problem could be solved by requiring teams to carry at least 4 white players (1 of whom is American), at least 1 asian player, and at least 1 gay player.

If my mom was chinese and my dad was white and I was gay, could I draw 3 salaries? I would definitely be the most versatile 12th man ever!

[Raiders Army]

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