Was Darth Vader incompetent?

[Kodos]

Sure, he was good at choking people with the Force and slaying a senile old man who had his light saber deactivated, but the guy let not one but TWO Death Stars get blown up, and ultimately lost the war to a bunch of Teddy Ruxpin clones and a crybaby Force poseur.

Discuss.

[DaddyTorgo]

true true. vader=very overrated. now the emperor, he's a real badass. but vader...overrated...incompetent.

[Eaglesfan27]

I think that he lacked commitment.

[sabotai]

I have to say it was the Emporer who dropped the ball on the second death star. I mean, he was the one who let the Rebels know where it was in the first place. If he didn't do that, they would have finished building it and, assuming they fixed the flaw from the first one, it would have been unstoppable.

[Draft Dodger]

I blame the system

[Tigercat]

Lets see, Vader switched companies only to be maimed and burnt to the point of needing a walking respirator. Maybe he just wanted to be incompitent and get fired? That whole choking his co-worker thing looks like passive aggresive(or maybe just aggressive) behavior to me.

[vyshka]

In his older years yeah he probably got sloppy and lazy, but he did single handedly
pretty much wipe out the Jedis. It should have been the commander of the Death
Star who was responsible for its defense, not Vader.

[TazFTW]

It should have been the commander of the Death
Star who was responsible for its defense, not Vader.
Yep, it's Grand Moff Tarkin's fault for the destruction of the first Death Star.

[Mr. Wednesday]

The one at fault is whichever of Vader or Tarkin allowed the Millenium Falcon to escape; although they wouldn't have been led to the base at Yavin, the detailed plans of the Death Star would not have made it into the rebels' hands.

[larrymcg421]

From what I understand, Rommel wanted to put some armor on Endor to protect the defense shield, but Vader didn't think the rebels would attack there, and insisted on defending a moon on the other side of the station.

[Kodos]

Vader had a clear shot to get Luke in the trench on the first Death Star. Rather than just blanketing the X-Wing with lasers and assuring it's destruction, he tried to be cool and do it all sniper-style.

Result: KER-BLAAAAM!!!

[judicial clerk]

I do not think that these failures are vaders fault. he was not the grand strategist, but rather the muscle. he operated outside of the empire's chain of command. he was feared and respected, but he was not necessarily overseeing day to day operations. he cleaned up messes and the like.

Now, Luke was the incompetent one. How about that plan to rescue Han Solo from Jabba. That was about the worst plan I had ever seen and I love it that Jabba laughs in his face. Now if Vader went to Jabba's place the way Luke did and said "I want Solo" Jabba would have said, "certainly Mr. Vader, he is right over here on the wall. Would you like some help out to your landspeeder with that?"

[larrymcg421]

Actually, if you go back to the root of the cause, you could blame the two idiots that decided not to fire on the escape pod with R2 and C3PO in it.

[TargetPractice6]

Actually, if you go back to the root of the cause, you could blame the two idiots that decided not to fire on the escape pod with R2 and C3PO in it.Or you could blame Vader for even building C3PO.

[gottimd]

Surprised there isn't any "Was Darth Vader impotent" threads

[kcchief19]

Grand Moff Tarkin was in charge of the first Death Star. Buck stops here. It was Vader who recommended allowing the Millenium Falcon to escape, and Tarkin knew it was an awful risk. But he did not think the Alliance's snub fighters were any threat. It was Vader who realized that and went out to take them out ship-to-ship.

On the second Death Star, it was definitely the Emperor. Vader warned him of the Rebel fleet massing near Sullust, but the Emperor thought he had forseen everything. And don't forget -- the biggest reason the Rebels won the Battle of Endor was that Vader tipped the scales by pitching the Emperor down a ventilation shaft. The Empire was continuing to win the air war even after the shield generator was taken out until Vader broke the "battle meld" the Emperor created for the Empire's pilots.

Plus, don't forget -- Vader hunted down eliminated the Jedi Knights. Tough bastard surrounded by bureacratic incompetence.

[gottimd]

Plus, don't forget -- Vader hunted down eliminated the Jedi Knights. Tough bastard surrounded by bureacratic incompetence.

Excellent points. However this sentence I think, but I could be wrong, is a little flawed. Vader leads the vendetta against the Jedi Knights, but he does not personally rid the universe of them. General Grievous took out some and I think others were hunted down by bounty hunters, storm troopers. Obviously the bounty hunters and storm troopers would have had to outnumber them by a lot to kill a Jedi Knight. Maybe they used excellent "strategery".

[cougarfreak]

I think Vader was too old when he was allowed to start with the empire. And he was black, they must have had a racist policy. He should have been allowed to start with the empire when he was 18 or 19 years old.

[timmynausea]

Vader's number one concern was recruiting his son into the fold, that's why he could never actually crush the rebellion, he had to make sure Luke was still alive.

[larrymcg421]

If we take the special editions into account, then Greedo should take alot of the blame. If he doesn't miss Han Solo at point blank range, then Han never deflects Vader's shot that would have fried Luke's ass.

[gottimd]

If we take the special editions into account, then Greedo should take alot of the blame. If he doesn't miss Han Solo at point blank range, then Han never deflects Vader's shot that would have fried Luke's ass.

Well then couldn't you lay some blame on Sebulba. If he would've killed Anakin in that Pod Race, this whole damn mess would never have happened.

[larrymcg421]

Well then couldn't you lay some blame on Sebulba. If he would've killed Anakin in that Pod Race, this whole damn mess would never have happened.
I'm gonna figure out a way to blame this all on Jar Jar.

[finkenst]

I think Vader was too old when he was allowed to start with the empire. And he was black, they must have had a racist policy. He should have been allowed to start with the empire when he was 18 or 19 years old.
And Jedi's the most insulting installment. Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!

[larrymcg421]

And Jedi's the most insulting installment. Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!
Isn't that true?

[cthomer5000]

Isn't that true?
A brilliant part of a so-so movie. :)

[DaddyTorgo]

what's a nubian?

[finkenst]

STFU!

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Sure, he was good at choking people with the Force and slaying a senile old man who had his light saber deactivated, but the guy let not one but TWO Death Stars get blown up, and ultimately lost the war to a bunch of Teddy Ruxpin clones and a crybaby Force poseur.

Discuss.

I think the failure isn't Vader's alone. It waas mostly due to a lack of a competent General Staff. I dont think the empire had a War College to train Majors and Lt. Colonels to assume command when time came.

[duckman]

I blame pornography.

[Abe Sargent]

I think the failure isn't Vader's alone. It waas mostly due to a lack of a competent General Staff. I dont think the empire had a War College to train Majors and Lt. Colonels to assume command when time came.


According to the Zahn books, you can blame the Emperor for this one for being speciest. Just one non-human was promoted to Admiral, Thrawn. And despite Thrawn being the total absolute genius (and one of the coolest characters that I have ever read in any book), they relegated him to running a backwater of space. If the Emperor had given responsibility of this to Thrawn, there would never have been any of these problems.

-Anxiety

[TazFTW]

Slight correction, Thrawn was the only alien Grand Admiral.

Tarkin still has to be blamed as he is the mastermind behind the Death Star project. Putting a hole the size of a womprat, in which a photon torpedo can fly through a cause a chain of reaction that destroys said Death Star is a design flaw that he is to be blamed.

Of course, this changes with those aliens at the end of Attack of the Clones giving the Death Star plans to Dooku. Tarkin is in Revenge of the Sith, so maybe it'll go back to him being the mastermind.

[Marc Vaughan]

Darth Vader made the classic mistakes of all movie baddies - these can be found in the Evil overlord list (hxxp://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) in case someone is planning on attempting to rule the world later this year ;)

[Raven Hawk]

Sure, he was good at choking people with the Force and slaying a senile old man who had his light saber deactivated, but the guy let not one but TWO Death Stars get blown up, and ultimately lost the war to a bunch of Teddy Ruxpin clones and a crybaby Force poseur.

Discuss.
I find your lack of faith disturbing . . .

[Marc Vaughan]

I find your lack of faith disturbing . . .
The Dark Side is strong in this one .... :D

[ISiddiqui]

I'm gonna figure out a way to blame this all on Jar Jar.
Well that's not too hard. He was the moron who sponsored the 'Emergency Powers' legislation for Palpatine. :D

[WSUCougar]

I find your lack of faith disturbing . . .
:D

[vyshka]

Slight correction, Thrawn was the only alien Grand Admiral.

Tarkin still has to be blamed as he is the mastermind behind the Death Star project. Putting a hole the size of a womprat, in which a photon torpedo can fly through a cause a chain of reaction that destroys said Death Star is a design flaw that he is to be blamed.

Of course, this changes with those aliens at the end of Attack of the Clones giving the Death Star plans to Dooku. Tarkin is in Revenge of the Sith, so maybe it'll go back to him being the mastermind.

Did Tarkin design the Death Star though? I think the Empire would probably
have a good case against whatever group of engineers designed it. Maybe
one of them is a rebel plant.

[gottimd]

Did Tarkin design the Death Star though?
I think the plans were seen in Episode II. Don't know if Tarkin was involved. This guy I think designed it.
http://www.geocities.com/gottimd/stormtrooper.gif

[TazFTW]

Did Tarkin design the Death Star though? I think the Empire would probably
have a good case against whatever group of engineers designed it. Maybe
one of them is a rebel plant.


From Star Wars.com,

Grand Moff Tarkin was the Imperial governor of the Outland Regions, and the mastermind of the Death Star project. A brilliant and ruthless tactician, Tarkin was a loyal adherent to Emperor Palpatine's vision of the New Order. He saw the Death Star as the ultimate weapon to ensure absolute rule over the galaxy. The power of the battle station's prime weapon was enough to deter any rebellion, he reasoned. To demonstrate the Death Star's power, he destroyed the planet of Alderaan.

Some questioned whether Tarkin's methods were merely bids to aggrandize his own status, in defiance of the Emperor's ultimate goal. The truth will never be known, for Tarkin perished aboard his creation. The Rebel Alliance dared to wage war with the Empire, and targeted a weak spot in the battle station. A proton torpedo volley fired by young Luke Skywalker sealed the station's fate. Tarkin was killed in the resulting explosion.

[stevew]

I blame a tired devotion to an ancient religion. If Vader was a Sunni Sith instead of a Shiite Sith, he would have been much better.

[rkmsuf]

How did Vader sleep in that getup. Looks very uncomfortable even on the best mattress in the universe.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Tarkin still has to be blamed as he is the mastermind behind the Death Star project. Putting a hole the size of a womprat, in which a photon torpedo can fly through a cause a chain of reaction that destroys said Death Star is a design flaw that he is to be blamed.I suppose the buck stops with him as both (presumably) the top manager on the project and then later the commanding officer on the station, but I wouldn't guess he had direct responsibility for it.

[Franklinnoble]

Putting a hole the size of a womprat, in which a photon torpedo can fly through a cause a chain of reaction that destroys said Death Star is a design flaw that he is to be blamed.

The presence of the hole isn't the problem. If anything, that's an engineering miracle - a spaceship the size of a small moon with a tailpipe the size of a womprat... I mean, that bitch has to have an exhaust someplace.

Now, the fact that it wasn't more closely protected could be considered a major shortcoming, and that you can blame Tarkin for - the Death Star was his baby, and anyone who's seen Beverly Hills Cop knows the old "banana-in-the-tailpipe" trick. Tarkin was sloppy. There should have been shitloads of star destroyers and tie fighters all over the Death Star for her attack on Yavin. They were about to crush the rebellion, for cryin' out loud.

Instead, a measly complement of fighters were overpowered by a rag-tag bunch of rebel ships, and the great Lord Vader was blown off course by a hunk of crap smuggling ship that somehow was able to approace a moon-size battle station unimpeded to clear the path for Skywalker to fire the kill shot.

I think Episode IV was the Empire's 9/11. Security was much better in Episode VI, but still inadequate. Clearly, the Empire underestimated the rebel terrorist threat, and that was their downfall.

[Tigercat]

I blame previous Sith administrations. If Darth Maul wouldn't have been so worried about having to justify that ridiculous double-edged light saber, who knows... The Sith might have been able to focus on putting together a better army besides clones of a bounty hunter that apparently can't shoot straight or keep proper security protical. Darth Maul was an embarssment to the Sith and its about time that people admitted it.

[cuervo72]

The Borg didn't have these kind of engineering problems with their cubic death stars....

[Franklinnoble]

You're really barking up the wrong tree. Darth Maul was a young and powerful Sith apprentice, but hardly held any responsibility for the mismangement of the Empire. His only mistake was his overconfidence after dispatching the great Qui Gon Jinn. He underestimated the resourcefulness of his well-trained padawan, and paid the price. Had Maul lived a little longer, he may have rivaled Darth Tyranus or even Darth Vader in his overall power and influence.

[timmynausea]

Darth Maul only had two lines. Two goddamn lines.

[Franklinnoble]

Darth Maul only had two lines. Two goddamn lines.
That's because Ray Park isn't much of an actor. He got the part for his athletic prowess.

Real bad guys shouldn't mouth off so much anyway.

[gottimd]

Darth Maul only had two lines. Two goddamn lines.
2 lines, 2 horns, 2 sided light sabre, fought 2 jedi to his death, one of 2 Sith....

[judicial clerk]

Darth Maul only had two lines. Two goddamn lines.

he didn't get caught monologing like the emperor did.

[cthomer5000]

Also, those two lines weren't even Ray Park's voice.

[timmynausea]

That reminds me. Have any of you seen the Empire of Dreams documentary that comes with the DVD set? They show some footage where you can hear the actor in the Darth Vader suit doing his lines, obviously before they had James Earl Jones redo the lines. It is insane. It seemed so weird to see/hear a pussyish, white sounding Darth Vader.

[Kodos]

Also, those two lines weren't even Ray Parker Jr.'s voice.


I think you better call... GHOST BUSTERS!

[Franklinnoble]

That reminds me. Have any of you seen the Empire of Dreams documentary that comes with the DVD set? They show some footage where you can hear the actor in the Darth Vader suit doing his lines, obviously before they had James Earl Jones redo the lines. It is insane. It seemed so weird to see/hear a pussyish, white sounding Darth Vader.
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