The Cubs suck.

[maximus]

I'm a Cubs fan but man do they get under my skin.

[gottimd]

I'll be at the game next saturday to watch them suck in person.

[Radii]

I'm really not sure why ayone has high hopes for them this season, I just don't see any reason for it.

[jbmagic]

If cubs starting pitching stays healthy, i think they can make a run for Wildcard.

[Barkeep49]

I have been assailed everyday at school by students for my lack of high hopes for the Cubs. I still hope to be proven wrong but...

[Radii]

If cubs starting pitching stays healthy, i think they can make a run for Wildcard.


The problem is that seems to be a big if, but even if true, they have to hit with at least some consistancy and still have to rely on their bullpen. How many blown saves does LaTroy Hawkins have in the first 10 games?

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Who cares about the Cubbies sucking. I'm just loving the Yank-mees start!!!

[LloydLungs]

It's Steve Stone's fault.

[mckerney]

The problem is that seems to be a big if, but even if true, they have to hit with at least some consistancy and still have to rely on their bullpen. How many blown saves does LaTroy Hawkins have in the first 10 games?

Why is LaTroy Hawkins closing games is a better question.

[Z²+]

Do you know why the Cubs lost tonight? Because they were playing the Pirates. And the Pirates are awesome.

[MizzouRah]

I agree... the Fubs Cuck!


Todd

[markprior22]

C'mon Todd...that was uncalled for :)

Hey I read 3 Nights in August. It was a fantastic baseball book.

[maximus]

Why is LaTroy Hawkins closing games is a better question.

Good question.

[st.cronin]

Good question.

I'm not fully up on this debate - but who on the roster would be a better choice? Remlinger? Dempster?

[MizzouRah]

C'mon Todd...that was uncalled for :)

Hey I read 3 Nights in August. It was a fantastic baseball book.

I'm just about done and I agree, it has been a great read. I've learned a lot about baseball - manager wise, I never knew about.


Todd

[maximus]

I'm not fully up on this debate - but who on the roster would be a better choice? Remlinger? Dempster?


Neither, I think.

The Cubs had a chance to pick up a closer in the off season but failed to do so. :mad:

[MizzouRah]

Maybe they'll pick up Ankiel. :)


Todd

[TroyF]

Keep in mind that teams with great pitching usually go on long tears.

It wasn't uncommon for the Braves to struggle through the first half of seasons and then turn it on. I think at some point, provided they stay healthy, the Cubs will go on one of those runs.

Health is the key thing of course, but I think it'll happen.

[Coffee Warlord]

Neither, I think.

The Cubs had a chance to pick up a closer in the off season but failed to do so. :mad:

Anyone But LaSuck.

Seriously, I'd put Remlinger in the closer's spot. Solid, mostly consistent veteran.

[Cuckoo]

Anyone But LaSuck.

Seriously, I'd put Remlinger in the closer's spot. Solid, mostly consistent veteran.

I would disagree.

I think there's no doubt that Latroy has struggled in the closer's role for some reason, but this is a team that really needs Remlinger as a left-handed specialist, in my opinion. Glendon Rusch is a nice starter/long-man, but he's not the kind of guy you want in the 8th to face a Todd Helton or Lance Berkman. For that reason, I think Remlinger needs to stay in the set-up role.

Now, the argument that the Cubs could have picked up a closer in the offseason carries some weight with me, but I can't ever quite put myself on the side of the aisle that berates Cubs brass for a failure to do so. After all, all rumors suggest that the price to get Urbina in a trade was way too high, and there are doubts about him as a closer. Percival was scheduled for a visit but shocked some people when he signed elsewhere before even taking it. Apparently, the Cubs were in discussions on Kolb with the Brewers, but they jumped quickly when given the opportunity to get that guy from the Braves in return. When that happened, the Cubs had no shot at him.

In my estimation, that would leave only one guy that was more of a proven closer than anyone the Cubs already had. That was Benitez. Given the numbers he signed for and the Cubs' financial situation with Sosa at the time, it's difficult to blame them for not jumping at that.

So... After all this, I would say that, while definitely regrettable, I wouldn't exactly call the Cubs' closer situation a massive failure of management.

And I am certainly not one of those bridge-jumpers who reside on the Chicago Cubs' forum who constantly scream for the next available pitcher to take over the closer role. I mean hey, I like Michael Wuertz and Todd Wellemeyer. I think they are decent pitchers. They won't ever be stars, but they can give some good innings. Closers, though, they aren't.

Dempster? He has tremendous stuff. But he has not mastered his control yet, and the last thing you want to do is put a guy in the ninth who is going to put a couple men on base each time. In the starter's role, you can sometimes work around that. In the closer's, you can't.

For better or worse, that leaves Hawkins. I hope he can be what he has the talent to be. I fear that he won't. If the Cubs are in the race at mid-season, I'm sure they'll do all they can to add a proven closer if that turns out to be the need it appears to be now. Interestingly, though, it's partially that position that makes that statement a big "if."

[Radii]

The fact that the bullpen was the biggest weakness last season, and nothing was done to make signifigant improvements to the bullpen during the offseason has left me with little hope. Hawkins is at the top of that for sure.

[PineTar]

A few points...

- Remlinger is not a lefty specialist. Left handed batters fare better against him then righties

- Cubs don't have a great pitching staff. They have Zambrano til his arm falls off (over/under being the AS break). They have Prior who's great during his eight healthy starts a year. Everyone else (and I mean EVERYONE else is no better than a #4). People like to think back to 2003, when their staff truly was great, but Dusty is still paying the price for whipping his horses way too hard for way too long down the stretch and in the playoffs that year.

- Bullpen budget was traded to Baltimore, remember the Cubs are eating like 12 million or something of Sosa's contract.

- No arms and a better-than-average lineup leave the Cubs w/ 80-84 wins this season in a weak division.

[SackAttack]

What happened to Borowski? Where the hell'd he vanish to?

[Masked]

What happened to Borowski? Where the hell'd he vanish to?
Injuries. Broken arm has him out now.

[TroyF]

Cubs don't have a great pitching staff. They have Zambrano til his arm falls off (over/under being the AS break). They have Prior who's great during his eight healthy starts a year. Everyone else (and I mean EVERYONE else is no better than a #4). People like to think back to 2003, when their staff truly was great, but Dusty is still paying the price for whipping his horses way too hard for way too long.

What indication is there that Zambrano's arm is going to fall off? He's been about as steady as you can be the last couple of seasons. 31 or 32 starts a year and about 6 2/3 per start. He pitched well after the break in both the last two seasons.

Prior has been banged up, but when he is healthy (more like half a season each year than 8 starts, he's solid)

Kerry Wood started 22 times last year for an ERA of 3.72. Over the past four seasons, he's started 28 times or more three times and his highest ERA is 3.72 during that span. I'd love to have that out of my #4 starter. He's had an uneven start this year, but I haven't seen anything to believe he's not a top 2 starter in any rotation in the league. And Maddux always starts out the year poor. Over the last three years, his ERA is a full run lower after the break than before it. His last couple of years the numbers have been 16 wins adn an ERA right at 4.

Most managers would dream of having that as a fourth starter.

Your assessment may end up being right. The Cubs certainly have their holes (and no, I'm not a Cubs fan in the least), but I don't think your reasoning is accurate.

I have a hunch the Cubbies arms are going to stay healthy this year. And if they do, they'll get at least the wild card, and there won't be a team in the league who will want to play them in the playoffs.

[Cuckoo]

A few points...

- Remlinger is not a lefty specialist. Left handed batters fare better against him then righties

- Cubs don't have a great pitching staff. They have Zambrano til his arm falls off (over/under being the AS break). They have Prior who's great during his eight healthy starts a year. Everyone else (and I mean EVERYONE else is no better than a #4). People like to think back to 2003, when their staff truly was great, but Dusty is still paying the price for whipping his horses way too hard for way too long down the stretch and in the playoffs that year.

- Bullpen budget was traded to Baltimore, remember the Cubs are eating like 12 million or something of Sosa's contract.

- No arms and a better-than-average lineup leave the Cubs w/ 80-84 wins this season in a weak division.



Well Troy already addressed your second and fourth points I think, but I will address your first since I think it was directed at my comments. I am well aware of Remlinger's numbers against righties and lefties. That doesn't change the fact that he's the closest thing the team has to a lefty specialist, and they need him in that capacity.

[PineTar]

What indication is there that Zambrano's arm is going to fall off?

2003 (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/pap_pitcher2003.php): Top 10 showing >>> sidenote: please note #'s 2 & 3

2004 (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/pap_pitcher2004.php): Top 5 showing

2005: I'm guessing Dusty's gonna shoot for #1 this year. :D (and lose when Z ends up visiting Dr. Jobe or Dr. Andrews.

[PineTar]

That doesn't change the fact that he's the closest thing the team has to a lefty specialist, and they need him in that capacity.

Look here (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits3?statsId=4673&type=pitching). What is the sense in having a 'specialist' if he sucks worse than the rest of your staff vs. lefties. They need someone to fill that capacity, and he's not close. This thread is starting to sound as uninformed as Chicago sports talk radio.

[TroyF]

2003 (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/pap_pitcher2003.php): Top 10 showing >>> sidenote: please note #'s 2 & 3

2004 (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/pap_pitcher2004.php): Top 5 showing

2005: I'm guessing Dusty's gonna shoot for #1 this year. :D (and lose when Z ends up visiting Dr. Jobe or Dr. Andrews.


Ummm, so what? I see guys on the list who were there both years and seem to be healthy anyway. Do you have those going back ten years? I'd love to look at an in depth analysis on the subject. I wonder how many time Randy Johnson finished in the top ten during his prime.

Is every guy on the list both years going to end up with a torn rotator cuff or blow their arms out?

That said, it still doesn't talk about the idiocy of saying Greg Maddux or Kerry Wood are nothing more than fourth starters, when the numbers don't show that to be the case. Last year, Maddux had the 35th best ERA in baseball for starting pitchers. And he won 16 games. Prior, Wood and Zambrano are all unquestionably better than Maddux if healthy.

Understand, I'm not a Cubs homer, I really don't care what happens to them. I just find the idea that they don't have good pitching to be laughable.

[PineTar]

How many guys on the list younger than Zambrano. At 23 years of age the body is still maturing and stress impacts the younger pitcher more than the older guys.

As for idiocy, relying on ERA and games won as statistics to prove your point nullifies whatever point you were trying to make.

I'll grant you this... Maddux did have a very nice year last year. He also turned 39 last week.

[TroyF]

How many guys on the list younger than Zambrano. At 23 years of age the body is still maturing and stress impacts the younger pitcher more than the older guys.

As for idiocy, relying on ERA and games won as statistics to prove your point nullifies whatever point you were trying to make.

I'll grant you this... Maddux did have a very nice year last year. He also turned 39 last week.


No, judging a relief pitcher by his ERA is idiocy in its highest form. It's not nearly as bad to look at starters that way. I figured you to be a stats guy, so I didn't think I'd have to go into the rest. But as you wish. . .

Maddux had the 35 best ERA, the 14th best WHIP, the 8th best K/BB ratio, and the 15th best OBP against in the majors last season. Sure looks like a fourth starter to me. :rolleyes:

As for his age, you are right. He's getting older. (as is Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Roger Clemens and Tom Glavine) My point was that of the top four starters, he's the worst of the bunch, and he'd have been a solid 2 for just about every team in baseball last year. A 3 at worst.

Even with all the injuries last year, the Cubs finished #3 in ERA. If they are healthier, they'll top that this year. They still have issues. The bullpen isn't good. The bats are suspect. Nomar has to come through with a solid year and they have little depth with the rest of the bats. You could easily be right about the Cubbies winning 80-84 games. They may win fewer if their question marks with the bats turn up wrong.

I'm still amazed that someone could say that a healthy Kerry Wood or Greg Maddux isn't anything more than a fourth starter. That's really amusing to me.

[Cuckoo]

Look here (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits3?statsId=4673&type=pitching). What is the sense in having a 'specialist' if he sucks worse than the rest of your staff vs. lefties. They need someone to fill that capacity, and he's not close. This thread is starting to sound as uninformed as Chicago sports talk radio.

Like I've said three times, I'm well aware of Remlinger's numbers. My point, and you don't seem to be listening to it, is that he's the closest thing they have to a lefty specialist. He may not be close at all, but he's still the closest.

When you have the game on the line and a tough lefty at bat, you want to be able to bring in someone you can count on to throw strikes. Remlinger fits that. You also want to bring in someone who can make the hitter's vision a bit tougher since it's coming from the left side. Remlinger fits that. Nobody else on the team right now fits that as well. Argue all you want to whether he's close; I don't really care. The fact is that he's the closest.

And I'll try as hard as I can to ignore your snide little comment about people being uninformed as it sounds to me like you're one those who will bash everything you can bash without thought and call everyone else uninformed when they don't agree with you.

[Cuckoo]

I'm still amazed that someone could say that a healthy Kerry Wood or Greg Maddux isn't anything more than a fourth starter. That's really amusing to me.

Agreed completely. I am a Cubs fan, but I won't exactly call myself confident. Hopeful certainly, but not quite confident. And I agree with you that injuries may very well be key.

[maximus]

I see that my thread has completely turned the Cubs around. Considering they have now won seven in a row - I take full responsibility for it.

[cody8200]

Keep up the good work max ;)

[maximus]

Keep up the good work max ;)


:D

[Coffee Warlord]

Hate to burst your bubble max, but it's due to the fact they finally axed LaSuck Hawkins. :)

[Radii]

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, if we pretend it isn't happening, maybe it won't stop. Does that logic make any sense?

[mhass]

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, if we pretend it isn't happening, maybe it won't stop. Does that logic make any sense?
When I saw this thread got bumped, I thought the same thing.

[Cuckoo]

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, if we pretend it isn't happening, maybe it won't stop. Does that logic make any sense?


Preeeeecisely. :)

[flere-imsaho]

I'm really not sure why ayone has high hopes for them any season, I just don't see any reason for it.

Fixed that for you.

[JeeberD]

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, if we pretend it isn't happening, maybe it won't stop. Does that logic make any sense?


WOW, the Cubs are HOT!!!!!


And my Astros have won four of their last five :)

[Cuckoo]

WOW, the Cubs are HOT!!!!!


And my Astros have won four of their last five :)


:mad:

I have a feeling the NAFL Titans are going to tank their next season...

;)

[maximus]

Hate to burst your bubble max, but it's due to the fact they finally axed LaSuck Hawkins. :)


OK, I can agree there. I'll split the success rate then. 5% for trading LaSuck (who blew yet another save with his new team) and 95% for me. :D

[JeeberD]

:mad:

I have a feeling the NAFL Titans are going to tank their next season...

;)

:D

[JeeberD]

I heart this thread... :D

[duckman]

I heart this thread... :D
How are your Astros doing, Jeebs? :D

[JeeberD]

Red hot, mofo! Tied for second in the NL Central and a mere six games out of the Wildcard. We're 22-11 since the start of June... :p

[duckman]

Red hot, mofo! Tied for second in the NL Central and a mere six games out of the Wildcard. We're 22-11 since the start of June... :p
They're the Astros. They'll fuck it up AGAIN! :D

[JeeberD]

Yup, just like we fucked it up last season when we were four games below .500 halfway through August, right?

[duckman]

Yup, just like we fucked it up last season when we were four games below .500 halfway through August, right?
Did they win the World Series?

[Cuckoo]

I can always count on Jeeber to rub salt in my wounds. :)

[JeeberD]

Did they win the World Series?

So every team besides the Red Sox fucked up last season?

[duckman]

So every team besides the Red Sox fucked up last season?
Yes. :D

[JeeberD]

Psst...I see you!

[PineTar]

http://www.thefobl.com/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

Just chiming in to apologize. I was wrong about the Cubs. Their offense isn't above average.