SirFozzie
04-21-2005, 09:37 AM
SackAttack and I had a discussion about this shortly after his Holiness was named Pope.
I said that I thought that this would not give a push to the Religous Conservative section of the Republican party, but really embolden them to go further then they already have.
He thought that it would have limited effect, and in truth, I wasn't sure if it was, despite his Holiness saying previously (as a Cardinal) that to vote for a candidate that supported abortion/euthanasia rights to be supporting and endorsing evil, but the more that I think about it, the more I think I was right.
Here's an article from today's NY Times. The article speaks more to the fact that Democratic Leaders would be placed more at odds with the Catholic Church, but what's your thoughts on how this effects American Politics?
WASHINGTON, April 20 - The election of an unstintingly conservative pope could inject a powerful new force into the intense conflicts in American politics over abortion and other social issues, which put many Catholic elected officials at odds with their church.
Pope Benedict XVI ascends to power at a tumultuous time for his church in American politics: Catholic voters, long overwhelmingly Democratic, have become a critical swing vote. Republicans have become increasingly successful at winning the support of more traditional Catholics by appealing to what President Bush calls the "culture of life" issues, including abortion, euthanasia and research on embryonic stem cells. Mr. Bush carried 56 percent of the white Catholic vote in 2004, up from 51 percent in 2000 - a formidable part of his conservative coalition.
At the same time, some American bishops have become more assertive in urging their congregations to vote in accord with Catholic teachings on those issues - and in moving to chastise Catholic officials who disagree, in a few cases by threatening to deny them Communion. The bishops acted with the support and encouragement of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the new pope, who at the time headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
This standoff has pitted church leaders against some of the leading Democrats in the country, and came to a boil last year around the presidential candidacy of Senator John Kerry. He is a Catholic who supports abortion rights, and argued that he could not impose "my article of faith" on others who did not share it.
Analysts on the right and the left say it is impossible to predict a papacy, and on Wednesday Benedict XVI was clearly seeking a softer, more inclusive tone than some had expected. But they say he shows all the indications of wanting to preserve a bright line around orthodoxy, around what is an acceptable position for a Catholic and what is not.
"I hate to pre-judge, but based on the record I would say Ratzinger is a very serious Catholic and he's going to say things like, 'Beware of falsehood in advertising,' " said Michael Novak, an expert on the Vatican at the American Enterprise Institute. "If you say you're a Catholic, be a Catholic."
Senator Rick Santorum, the No. 3 Republican in the Senate and a conservative Catholic, said: "If you're an active Catholic in America, you know the name Cardinal Ratzinger. He's known as very much in line with the doctrine of the church and a strong enforcer of that doctrine."
But, Mr. Santorum added, "the question is how much emphasis will he put on it" as pope, noting that such matters are often left to local bishops.
Many Catholic Democrats are still angry over the treatment by some bishops of Mr. Kerry and some other prominent Democrats last year. A generation of Democrats still traces its political approach to religion back to John F. Kennedy, the first Roman Catholic president of the United States, who declared during the 1960 campaign, "I do not speak for my church on public matters, and the church does not speak for me."
But John Green, a specialist in religion and politics at the University of Akron, noted that the social and values-related issues that roil American politics today were simply not on the agenda in 1960.
Mario M. Cuomo, the former governor of New York, says that in the current climate, Catholic Democrats cannot shrink from a debate over values, even if it means debating their bishops.
"You say to the bishops, look, I respect you, I want to stay in the club, I try to live by your rules, but let's not be selective." He noted that church teaching also includes opposition to the death penalty and the war in Iraq, as well as a strong agenda of social justice for the poor, and he asserts that Catholic Republicans ought to be judged by those standards.
Senator Patrick Leahy, Democrat of Vermont and prominent Catholic, agreed: "American bishops always have been involved in politics and been very selective. If you are a Republican who is for the death penalty, that is O.K., but if you are a Democrat for choice, that is not O.K."
Conservatives counter that such Democrats cannot have it both ways: claiming to be good Catholics and being staunch supporters of abortion rights. They say the "life" issues - led by abortion - occupy a central place in church teaching.
Professor Green said the new pope was unlikely to disappoint those conservative American Catholics. "The new pope is very much likely to continue the policies of the late pope," he said. "This developing alliance of religious traditionalists will continue, with the blessing of the Catholic hierarchy. Also, I think we'll see the Catholic hierarchy continue to be very visible and active on political issues, with the 'life' issues and the marriage issue front and center."
Some Catholic liberals say such an aggressive approach risks a backlash. Many Catholic voters, they say, dislike the idea of having their clerics weigh in too heavily on how they should vote, particularly since polls indicate that many American Catholics disagree with church teaching on a range of issues, including birth control and the legality of abortion.
For now, though, liberal Catholics say they are hoping for the best.
"I will give him the benefit of the doubt," said Terry McAuliffe, a Catholic who is the former chairman of the Democratic National Committee and was a sharp critic of the treatment of Mr. Kerry last year. "He was the enforcer before. He's not the enforcer now. Now he has to be the unifier around the world, and it's a different role."
But the Rev. Richard McBrien, a liberal theologian at Notre Dame, said in an interview conducted by e-mail that he wondered how much the new pope understood the more liberal strain of American Catholicism represented by leaders like Mr. Kerry or Mr. Cuomo. "I doubt if he understands it as well as he should, but then, whom does he speak with who might enlighten him, without giving a conservative spin to the explanation?" Father McBrien asked.
I said that I thought that this would not give a push to the Religous Conservative section of the Republican party, but really embolden them to go further then they already have.
He thought that it would have limited effect, and in truth, I wasn't sure if it was, despite his Holiness saying previously (as a Cardinal) that to vote for a candidate that supported abortion/euthanasia rights to be supporting and endorsing evil, but the more that I think about it, the more I think I was right.
Here's an article from today's NY Times. The article speaks more to the fact that Democratic Leaders would be placed more at odds with the Catholic Church, but what's your thoughts on how this effects American Politics?
WASHINGTON, April 20 - The election of an unstintingly conservative pope could inject a powerful new force into the intense conflicts in American politics over abortion and other social issues, which put many Catholic elected officials at odds with their church.
Pope Benedict XVI ascends to power at a tumultuous time for his church in American politics: Catholic voters, long overwhelmingly Democratic, have become a critical swing vote. Republicans have become increasingly successful at winning the support of more traditional Catholics by appealing to what President Bush calls the "culture of life" issues, including abortion, euthanasia and research on embryonic stem cells. Mr. Bush carried 56 percent of the white Catholic vote in 2004, up from 51 percent in 2000 - a formidable part of his conservative coalition.
At the same time, some American bishops have become more assertive in urging their congregations to vote in accord with Catholic teachings on those issues - and in moving to chastise Catholic officials who disagree, in a few cases by threatening to deny them Communion. The bishops acted with the support and encouragement of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the new pope, who at the time headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
This standoff has pitted church leaders against some of the leading Democrats in the country, and came to a boil last year around the presidential candidacy of Senator John Kerry. He is a Catholic who supports abortion rights, and argued that he could not impose "my article of faith" on others who did not share it.
Analysts on the right and the left say it is impossible to predict a papacy, and on Wednesday Benedict XVI was clearly seeking a softer, more inclusive tone than some had expected. But they say he shows all the indications of wanting to preserve a bright line around orthodoxy, around what is an acceptable position for a Catholic and what is not.
"I hate to pre-judge, but based on the record I would say Ratzinger is a very serious Catholic and he's going to say things like, 'Beware of falsehood in advertising,' " said Michael Novak, an expert on the Vatican at the American Enterprise Institute. "If you say you're a Catholic, be a Catholic."
Senator Rick Santorum, the No. 3 Republican in the Senate and a conservative Catholic, said: "If you're an active Catholic in America, you know the name Cardinal Ratzinger. He's known as very much in line with the doctrine of the church and a strong enforcer of that doctrine."
But, Mr. Santorum added, "the question is how much emphasis will he put on it" as pope, noting that such matters are often left to local bishops.
Many Catholic Democrats are still angry over the treatment by some bishops of Mr. Kerry and some other prominent Democrats last year. A generation of Democrats still traces its political approach to religion back to John F. Kennedy, the first Roman Catholic president of the United States, who declared during the 1960 campaign, "I do not speak for my church on public matters, and the church does not speak for me."
But John Green, a specialist in religion and politics at the University of Akron, noted that the social and values-related issues that roil American politics today were simply not on the agenda in 1960.
Mario M. Cuomo, the former governor of New York, says that in the current climate, Catholic Democrats cannot shrink from a debate over values, even if it means debating their bishops.
"You say to the bishops, look, I respect you, I want to stay in the club, I try to live by your rules, but let's not be selective." He noted that church teaching also includes opposition to the death penalty and the war in Iraq, as well as a strong agenda of social justice for the poor, and he asserts that Catholic Republicans ought to be judged by those standards.
Senator Patrick Leahy, Democrat of Vermont and prominent Catholic, agreed: "American bishops always have been involved in politics and been very selective. If you are a Republican who is for the death penalty, that is O.K., but if you are a Democrat for choice, that is not O.K."
Conservatives counter that such Democrats cannot have it both ways: claiming to be good Catholics and being staunch supporters of abortion rights. They say the "life" issues - led by abortion - occupy a central place in church teaching.
Professor Green said the new pope was unlikely to disappoint those conservative American Catholics. "The new pope is very much likely to continue the policies of the late pope," he said. "This developing alliance of religious traditionalists will continue, with the blessing of the Catholic hierarchy. Also, I think we'll see the Catholic hierarchy continue to be very visible and active on political issues, with the 'life' issues and the marriage issue front and center."
Some Catholic liberals say such an aggressive approach risks a backlash. Many Catholic voters, they say, dislike the idea of having their clerics weigh in too heavily on how they should vote, particularly since polls indicate that many American Catholics disagree with church teaching on a range of issues, including birth control and the legality of abortion.
For now, though, liberal Catholics say they are hoping for the best.
"I will give him the benefit of the doubt," said Terry McAuliffe, a Catholic who is the former chairman of the Democratic National Committee and was a sharp critic of the treatment of Mr. Kerry last year. "He was the enforcer before. He's not the enforcer now. Now he has to be the unifier around the world, and it's a different role."
But the Rev. Richard McBrien, a liberal theologian at Notre Dame, said in an interview conducted by e-mail that he wondered how much the new pope understood the more liberal strain of American Catholicism represented by leaders like Mr. Kerry or Mr. Cuomo. "I doubt if he understands it as well as he should, but then, whom does he speak with who might enlighten him, without giving a conservative spin to the explanation?" Father McBrien asked.