Explain to me: Lance Armstrong

[Drake]

1. Why should I care about Lance Armstrong?
2. How is it that he has become an American cultural icon for participating in a professional sport that very few people (relatively speaking) care about?
3. How does he avoid PR flak from divorcing his wife, splitting his family and hooking up with Cheryl Crow? (Crowe?)

Explain to me the Lance Armstrong phenomenon. I want to know not how it happened, but why it happened. Why is he (arguably) bigger than Tiger Woods, who actually revolutionalized the demographics of a sport (as opposed to cycling, which no one still cares about)? Why did he ascend to pantheon status in not only the sporting world, but the cultural world?

And don't tell me "surviving testicular cancer". Testicular cancer is necessary, I think, but not sufficient to explain the Armstrong phenomenon. Testicular cancer is a red herring.

What is driving this phenomenon? Or more importantly, who is driving this phenomenon?

Really, I just don't understand this Lance Armstrong thing at all.

What brings this up, you ask? I was watching CNN a couple of nights ago and the newscaster was promo'ing this "100 Greatest Americans" show on Discovery or NGC or something. This show is supposed to be the greatest American in the history of the country. The news chick said that she had voted for Lance Armstrong.

Not Jonas Salk. Not Honest Abe. Not Martin Luther King, Jr., John F. Kennedy, Ronald Reagan, FDR or Thomas Jefferson. Not even Neil-freaking-Armstrong or even Michael Jordan, for God's sake (star of a sport that most Americans actually watch). No, she voted for Lance Armstrong. I cannot comprehend this. I cannot comprehend the Lance Armstrong phenomenon. I do not appreciate the flavor of his Kool-Aid. So explain it to me.

[Ksyrup]

"I do not appreciate the flavor of his Kool-Aid."


Once again...how many more times do I need to confront the Kool-Aid Man with his mistakes? Lance Armstrong flavor? Yuck!

[jeff061]

Testicular cancer and the fact that he not only succeeds but dominates in a huge international event. Kind of a pride of America thing.

Never saw it as a mystery.

[moriarty]

Well let's see,

He recovered from testicular cancer, and routinely beats a bunch of Frenchies and bags Cheryl Crow.

Basically he has both my sympathy and respect.

(I conveniently forget how he ditched his wife for Crow by the way)

[timmynausea]

Just for the record, there are still billions of people world wide who don't care about golf.

[moriarty]

What brings this up, you ask? I was watching CNN a couple of nights ago and the newscaster was promo'ing this "100 Greatest Americans" show on Discovery or NGC or something. This show is supposed to be the greatest American in the history of the country. The news chick said that she had voted for Lance Armstrong.


By the way, that news chick is an idiot.

[mrsimperless]

As long as it was an upgrade the wife ditch is of course forgiven and forgotten.

I have never seen any interviews with him or what have you, but he came off as a tool-bag in Dodgeball - Grab Life by the Balls.

I dated a girl once who worked at a hospital where Lance received treatment for his brain cancer. (His cancer spread from his peabodies to other areas) There was a story floating around that Lance tried to get all condescending on the lead brain surgeon. The story goes that Lance was put in his place by this old man who said something to the effect of "Lance, I operate on the human brain for a living. You on the other hand, ride bicycles. How about you let me do my job?"

Teehee!

[Pyser]

you'll understand it when they make a big movie about him. it will be a tearjerker.

[Drake]

Admittedly, all of these factors are enough to make him famous, and possibly deservedly so.

But Armstrong is more than famous. He's a cultural icon. He's Charles Lindbergh for this generation. That's the bit that confuses me. I mean, Shaq is famous, but he isn't a cultural icon. Peyton Manning is famous, but not an icon. Hell, not even Tom Brady is a cultural icon. Tom Brady doesn't convince us to wear rubber bands around our wrists. Tom Brady wouldn't get out of a doping allegation just by saying "my accuser is clearly an idiot".

Armstrong is bigger than that. He's practically untouchable, which means to me that he personifies some zeitgeist in American culture currently so that we won't allow him to be touched. What is it that Armstrong's story personifies that impacts us so powerfully?

[Huckleberry]

I'm from Austin, Texas and I agree with Drake 100%. It's ridiculous.

And Crow is a downgrade from his first wife, IMO. But she's famous so she's assumed to be hotter. She sure as shit ain't as good a person as Kristin.

But I'll be honest. I thought Armstrong was a great story. Then he ditched his wife that stuck with him through all the problems once he got big. So now he's a POS. End of story.

[moriarty]

Admittedly, all of these factors are enough to make him famous, and possibly deservedly so.

But Armstrong is more than famous. He's a cultural icon. He's Charles Lindbergh for this generation. That's the bit that confuses me. I mean, Shaq is famous, but he isn't a cultural icon. Peyton Manning is famous, but not an icon. Hell, not even Tom Brady is a cultural icon. Tom Brady doesn't convince us to wear rubber bands around our wrists. Tom Brady wouldn't get out of a doping allegation just by saying "my accuser is clearly an idiot".

Armstrong is bigger than that. He's practically untouchable, which means to me that he personifies some zeitgeist in American culture currently so that we won't allow him to be touched. What is it that Armstrong's story personifies that impacts us so powerfully?

Whoah now. You're basing all this on one Discovery show?

Clearly he's a top sports star that has a sympathetic, Rocky like comeback story that Americans are suckers for .... but I wouldnt' say he's untouchable or "Charles Lindburgh" of our generation.

[mrsimperless]

Hmmm, I think jeff is probably right. The rest of the world hates us lately. Maybe we see Lance as our own special way to give the rest of the world the finger.

[henry296]

Part of his cultural icon status is his role in fund raising for Cancer Research. It is as much a fashion statement as anything else, but the yellow Live Strong bracelets are very popular.

[rexallllsc]

Easy. Nike.

[Drake]

Whoah now. You're basing all this on one Discovery show?

Clearly he's a top sports star that has a sympathetic, Rocky like comeback story that Americans are suckers for .... but I wouldnt' say he's untouchable or "Charles Lindburgh" of our generation.

I'm not basing it on the Discovery show, though I guess I *am* saying that I don't understand how Armstrong even gets serious consideration for belonging on a list of 100 Greatest Americans.

[Ksyrup]

I think it's unfortunate that he got divorced, but from everything I've seen/read, he didn't pull a Johnny Damon on his wife. He didn't broadside her with the divorce, doesn't appear to have cheated, and I believe still lives 2 miles from his ex-wife and the kids. I don't know when the Cheryl Crow thing started, but I get the feeling the relationship was souring way before then. They separated in early 2003, then got back together when he won lat year, then decided to divorce.

Without more information, it's hard to fault him for his divorce or suggest he's abandoned his kids/family for another woman.

As for the doping allegations, I barely care about them in baseball, so why should I care about them in cycling?

[Gary Gorski]

Over/Under until FWR posts in this thread? :)

[DanGarion]

From what I heard from someone she broke up with him because she feel in love with some soap opeara star or something.

[Ksyrup]

I don't think she's with anyone. All I've seen is stories about her running a marathon to raise money for cancer research.

[terpkristin]

Whhat really amuses me here is that nobody has made any comment to hhis current self vs. what he was BEFORE he faced death.

He was a decent cyclist (I rooted for him, but I was among the few), but didn't listen to coaches and was generally a douchebag.

I'm not justifying anything either way (though I agree he rightly is an icon), just saying that his attitude and personality have been improved 200% at least since his fight with cancer.

Take that as you will. I'll always be an Armstrong fan (have been since the early 90's).

/tk

[wishbone]

I don't even understand why anyone thinks he's a great athlete. He does one event per year. Granted the event is hundreds of miles and a few weeks long, but it is one event. Would you respect a Nascar driver who only raced once per year or someone who played for only a month of the season in baseball, football or basketball?

Plus the fact he rides for the post office pisses me off. Why are they raising the cost of stamps to sponsor a team that doesn't even compete in the USA. Is the USPS trying to open up markets in Europe?

[Franklinnoble]

I agree with Drake.

Bicycling isn't a real sport. Lance is good, but his team has as much to do with his success (and gets NO credit) as he does.

And the whole splitting from his wife bit tweaks me off too.

[cartman]

I don't even understand why anyone thinks he's a great athlete. He does one event per year. Granted the event is hundreds of miles and a few weeks long, but it is one event. Would you respect a Nascar driver who only raced once per year or someone who played for only a month of the season in baseball, football or basketball?

Plus the fact he rides for the post office pisses me off. Why are they raising the cost of stamps to sponsor a team that doesn't even compete in the USA. Is the USPS trying to open up markets in Europe?

Umm.. where should I begin to point out the inaccuracies here?

[sachmo71]

HOLY CRAP! IT'S DRAKE!!!


How's the book doing, Drake?
Good to see you!

[I. J. Reilly]

Easy. Nike.
Beat me to it.
We like to look at athletes and think, "that's exactly what I would do if I were just bigger/stronger/faster." So that explains the dumping your wife for Sheryl Crowe thing.

[DanGarion]

I agree with Drake.

Bicycling isn't a real sport. Lance is good, but his team has as much to do with his success (and gets NO credit) as he does.

And the whole splitting from his wife bit tweaks me off too.

Because it's all his fault?

[cartman]

I used to race against Lance back in the late 80's. As tk pointed out, he was a pretty big a-hole. He was good, and knew he was good, and wanted you to acknowledge how good he was. Hardly anyone could stand being around him.

But cancer really humbled him, and nearly took away everything from him. He turned that experience into a tunnel vision focus to beat cancer, and then make himself a even better cyclist. He went in a few months from being on death's doorstep to winning the Tour de France, arguably the single toughest athletic event in the world.

As for the people upset about the divorce, it was a mutual agreement, they are still good friends. People grow apart all of the time. But all heroes have a weak spot. Michael Jordan had his gambling accusations, Wilt Chamberlain his promiscuous behavior, Brett Favre had his battles with pain killers. No one is perfect, so why should be be suprised when people in the public eye make decisions we don't agree with?

As for the placement in the Top 100 Americans of all time, that is debateable. But he is definitely in the Top 100 American athletes of all time.

[Franklinnoble]

I used to race against Lance back in the late 80's.
Yeah, but tell us about the time you used to race against Kevin Bacon in the 80's...

[Buzzbee]

Football, basketball and baseball stars don't have as much crossover appeal to women as cycling does. Most everybody can ride a bike, so women can relate. I'm guessing women also consider him good looking. So, that is a big push in regard to the cultural icon thing.

Then throw in that he has won what could be considered the 'Super Bowl' of cycling six times. Anyone who has that kind of success in such a recognized event is bound to be respected for his/her accomplishments.

The battle with cancer helps him transcend from just a sports figure to a person that can inspire. Yeah, he won a couple of big bike races, but then he gets cancer, beats it, and comes back to win more bike races. Just a good story.

Fads. The livestrong bracelets have become a fad and have spawned numerous other spinoffs. Teenagers who might otherwise have no clue who Lance Armstrong is now know who he is, what he has been through, and what he has accomplished.

Media darling. He farts and the media reports it. He is in our face, so we can't help but look.

Roll all of that together and it is pretty easy to see why he has become what he has.

[cartman]

Yeah, but tell us about the time you used to race against Kevin Bacon in the 80's...

Sorry, my Bacon number is much higher than one

[Drake]

Note:

1. I did not say bicycling isn't a real sport. I *did* say that it isn't very popular as a professional sport here in the U.S.

2. I did not say that Armstrong is not a terrific athlete. He deserves all the kudos he gets as an athlete.

3. I *did* give him some shit about his divorce, but it seems that what I've heard about how it happened and what others have heard doesn't mesh, though there does appear to be some doubt about exactly what happened there. Exactly what *did* happen is immaterial to this discussion. Enough people have heard (rightly or wrongly) that he was at fault and still spare him from criticism to make this interesting to me.

Let's go at this from a different direction:

1. Kobe Bryant (pre-rape trial) was a superb athlete who won championships, but outside of Laker-land, lots of people hated him despite the fact that he was successful.

1a. see also Jeter, Derek.

2. Curt Schilling, whom I love more than my own wife, is a proven winner. People (in New England, at least) love him. He is not a cultural icon, though he is a superstar athlete (despite the bloody sock thing, which made him merely a *baseball* icon).

3. Winning obviously is not a sufficient component to make the translation from superstar athlete to cultural icon, though probably a necessary one.

4. Overcoming cancer is also not sufficient, though also necessary.

5. I guess I'm saying that both ingredients together are not sufficient to explan the Armstrong phenomenon (though this is the part that may just be in my own mind). They are sufficient to make a nice cheer-him-on Wide World of Sports essay, but not to transmogrify a successful bicyclist into a cultural icon who dates rock stars (though, since we're talking Cheryl Crow, I'm obviously using the term "rock star" very loosely).

I don't hate the guy. I don't begrudge him his success or the public adoration he receives. But at the same time, I do believe that a society picks its heroes because those heroes reflect back to the society values and accomplishments that we admire (or that we've been told we should believe we admire, which is where this gets murky for me). What are the values that Armstrong embodies that make his message so special, so subconsciously profound to us that we're willing to wear his little rubber bands around?

(I contrast the rubber bands with those little red carnations the vets sell on Memorial Day. Both are for good causes, but you don't see people wearing red carnations around all year long to show that they once gave a buck to a vet. The impact of the rubber band thing is qualitatively different, I'd argue.)

I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but Armstrong's case *feels* different to me than Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan and their broad impact on our culture. I'm just trying to figure out why.

[Drake]

But he is definitely in the Top 100 American athletes of all time.

No argument here at all.

[jeff061]

If he was winning bike races in the US, competing against predominantly US players he would not be who he is. I think that's the final piece your missing in the "winner + cancer survivor" equation.

Oh, and I think more people are impressed with a cancer survivor winning an exhausting and stretched out race than if he was swinging a club and prancing around a field. If Tiger played another sport he'd be at least at Jordan's level.

[Drake]

HOLY CRAP! IT'S DRAKE!!!


How's the book doing, Drake?
Good to see you!

dola dola...

Good to see you again, sachmo. For the record, I haven't really been away, just not really posting much. I still lurk almost daily. :)

The book's doing okay. About what one would expect from a small press genre title (meaning that I'm not getting rich and have no plans to quit my day job, but I make enough to take my wife out for a nice evening on the town every three months when the royalty check arrives).

[wishbone]

Umm.. where should I begin to point out the inaccuracies here?

Tell me how many events he participated in last year
Tell me how long the Tour de France is
Tell me how long it takes to complete
Tell me that postage is lower with the USPS sponsoring a bike team than if they were not

Do not tell me what hard work riding a bike is, I understand that bicycle racing takes skill. So does farting in a melodious manner or playing a tuba.

[Drake]

If he was winning bike races in the US, competing against predominantly US players he would not be who he is. I think that's the final piece your missing in the "winner + cancer survivor" equation.

Ah, now we're getting close to the conclusion that I've started to reach based on comments over at the FOBL (where this discussion actually originated -- I moved it here to get a broader range of input). The FOBLers identified the following as the collective necessary-but-not-sufficient ingredients:

1. Overcoming major obstacles (cancer)
2. Being the Best at Something (cycling)
3. Humanitarian (Cancer research fundraising)
4. Xenophobia (We hate the French. Hell, we hate Europeans.)
5. Elitism (One of "us" kicks the elitist European's asses at their own game.)

Of course, I've been trying to put all of this in the context of a zeitgeist, and what I see when I look at those ingredients is an anti-mortality revenge fantasy (i.e. the world tried to kill me, but I got back up and kicked its ass at its own game, but even though I might have had to get a little tough, I'm still deep down the sort of nice, caring guy who wants to help those less fortunate than me).

So I'm beginning to wonder: Does Armstrong's experience resonate with Americans because it is, on one level, a symbolically parallel narrative of our post-9/11 experience with the world?

Or, as I said over there, am I reaching?

[Anthony]

i jsut like him cuz he pisses off the French.

that's all. he could die tomorrow and i wouldn't bat an eyelash.

[Buzzbee]

I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but Armstrong's case *feels* different to me than Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan and their broad impact on our culture. I'm just trying to figure out why.
Because you diminish his athletic accomplishments when compared to Tiger and Jordan. Jordan is seen as perhaps the greatest player to ever play the game. Tiger has single-handedly brought golf back into the spotlight and made it popular again.

Armstrong 'merely' won an event that was already popular. Also, you probably view basketball and golf as having a 'season' rather than being one 'event'. That likely diminishes Lance's accomplishments in your view.

There also might be some resentment regarding his cancer. He survived cancer. Big deal. Lots of people win the battle against cancer. What makes him so special? He's getting all this sympathy because he is a cancer survivor. Sure it's great, but it is no reason to put him on a pedestal.

Yet when you take the cancer and couple it with his athletic acheivements, it is a pretty damn good story.

If Tiger won the grand slam a few times, had a battle with cancer, and then came back to win a few more grand slams, don't you think that would inspire people and solidify him as a cultural icon? There probably would have been a similar effect with Jordan when his dad was murdered, except the gambling scandal put a damper on that.

Just tossing out thoughts.

[Maple Leafs]

Drake... I'm with you on this one.

The cancer story is admirable, even inspiring, but not enough to explain the entire phenomenon.

I do not understand how it's possible for so many Americans to hold up as a hero a man who is #1 in a sport in which they could not name #2, or anyone else for that matter. It's a strange, strange thing. (Not necessarily bad or harmful in any way, just... strange.)

[cartman]

Tell me how many events he participated in last year
Tell me how long the Tour de France is
Tell me how long it takes to complete
Tell me that postage is lower with the USPS sponsoring a bike team than if they were not

Do not tell me what hard work riding a bike is, I understand that bicycle racing takes skill. So does farting in a melodious manner or playing a tuba.

Here's what he raced in last year:

Tour of Algarve, Portugal
Tour of Murcia, Spain
Milan - San Remo, Italy
Critérium International, France
Tour de Georgia, USA
Tour du Languedoc-Rousillon, France
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré, France
Tour de France
Men's Olympic Time Trial, Athens, Greece
T-Mobile International, San Francisco, CA USA

The Tour de France last year was 20 stages, raced between July 3rd and July 25th covering 3,400km (~2100 miles). His total race time was 83 hours, 36 minutes.

The USPS no longer sponsors the team. It is now Discovery Channel.

[sachmo71]

dola dola...

Good to see you again, sachmo. For the record, I haven't really been away, just not really posting much. I still lurk almost daily. :)

The book's doing okay. About what one would expect from a small press genre title (meaning that I'm not getting rich and have no plans to quit my day job, but I make enough to take my wife out for a nice evening on the town every three months when the royalty check arrives).


Well that's still encouraging. Being published is pretty damn cool in and of itself! The money will come. :)

Good to see you, and it's nice to know you are around. Sorry for the threadjack!

[Drake]

Because you diminish his athletic accomplishments when compared to Tiger and Jordan. Jordan is seen as perhaps the greatest player to ever play the game. Tiger has single-handedly brought golf back into the spotlight and made it popular again.

Armstrong 'merely' won an event that was already popular. Also, you probably view basketball and golf as having a 'season' rather than being one 'event'. That likely diminishes Lance's accomplishments in your view.

There also might be some resentment regarding his cancer. He survived cancer. Big deal. Lots of people win the battle against cancer. What makes him so special? He's getting all this sympathy because he is a cancer survivor. Sure it's great, but it is no reason to put him on a pedestal.

Yet when you take the cancer and couple it with his athletic acheivements, it is a pretty damn good story.

If Tiger won the grand slam a few times, had a battle with cancer, and then came back to win a few more grand slams, don't you think that would inspire people and solidify him as a cultural icon? There probably would have been a similar effect with Jordan when his dad was murdered, except the gambling scandal put a damper on that.

Just tossing out thoughts.


I think you're right on all points, Buzzbee, which is sort of what I've been getting at, actually, though I think you've been much more succinct in the way you put it. If Jordan or Tiger had done it, I wouldn't be confused about it at all.

But as Maple Leafs says below, the fact that a (to a non-cycling fan) relatively obscure athlete in a generally obscure sport (for Americans) has ascended to this plateau is what fascinates me--especially when you take into account that seven TdF's later, cycling is still just as obscure. Americans don't care about cycling. We don't care about the TdF. We care about Lance Armstrong, and that's what baffles me, this excising of the athlete completely out of his natural sporting context and making him into a cultural star while leaving all the trappings of his success (i.e. his sport) in obscurity.

Bottom line is that I'm not trying to figure out why Armstrong is famous. I think that's patently obvious in the same way we all know who wins the Indy 500 even if we don't follow the IRL the rest of the season. The TdF, like the Indy 500, is an Event of Note.

What I'm trying to figure out is why his fame and the story of his fame resonates so deeply with Americans.

[cartman]

dola,

A big part of his allure is that Americans like to be the best, at anything we do. This has been alluded to in earlier posts as well. It doesn't matter what it is, we want to be best. Sports, movies, you name a competition, we want to win it. And we celebrate the winners, and pay no notice to the rest. Prime example: The Olympics. For 3 years and 11 months out of every four, 99% of Americans couldn't name the medal favorites. But during the month of the Olympics, we are behind the medal winners 100%.

[Antmeister]

This is a very interesting post because I always felt the say way about Joe Montana. Here is a guy that is remembered as one of the greatest quarterbacks to play the game and you have no arguement from me, but he left his wife and kids and never looked back. I thought that was horrid and lost a lot of respect from him. Yet people tend to ignore those fact and idolize the guy. Yes he was a great quarterback, but he was pretty much not a good person in my opinion.

[Young Drachma]

I actually wondered this too a while back, about all the hoopla over him. I agree he's an amazing athlete to do that year in and year out. I mean, it's not like the guys racing against him - save for maybe his teammates - are really WANTING him to win every year and make them irrelevant.

So..it's pretty amazing. The rest is unimportant to me.

[Desnudo]

1. Why should I care about Lance Armstrong?
2. How is it that he has become an American cultural icon for participating in a professional sport that very few people (relatively speaking) care about?
3. How does he avoid PR flak from divorcing his wife, splitting his family and hooking up with Cheryl Crow? (Crowe?)

Explain to me the Lance Armstrong phenomenon. I want to know not how it happened, but why it happened. Why is he (arguably) bigger than Tiger Woods, who actually revolutionalized the demographics of a sport (as opposed to cycling, which no one still cares about)? Why did he ascend to pantheon status in not only the sporting world, but the cultural world?

And don't tell me "surviving testicular cancer". Testicular cancer is necessary, I think, but not sufficient to explain the Armstrong phenomenon. Testicular cancer is a red herring.

What is driving this phenomenon? Or more importantly, who is driving this phenomenon?

Really, I just don't understand this Lance Armstrong thing at all.

What brings this up, you ask? I was watching CNN a couple of nights ago and the newscaster was promo'ing this "100 Greatest Americans" show on Discovery or NGC or something. This show is supposed to be the greatest American in the history of the country. The news chick said that she had voted for Lance Armstrong.

Not Jonas Salk. Not Honest Abe. Not Martin Luther King, Jr., John F. Kennedy, Ronald Reagan, FDR or Thomas Jefferson. Not even Neil-freaking-Armstrong or even Michael Jordan, for God's sake (star of a sport that most Americans actually watch). No, she voted for Lance Armstrong. I cannot comprehend this. I cannot comprehend the Lance Armstrong phenomenon. I do not appreciate the flavor of his Kool-Aid. So explain it to me.

1. You don't have to care about him. Personally, I think he comes off as an uptight jerk, but that doesn't diminish his accomplishments.

2. Bike racing is huge in Europe. The Tour de France is popular in the US. Compared to Tiger Woods and golf, or even Jordan and basketball, it's much harder to ride a bike 100+ miles a day, up and down mountains, for weeks at a time than it is to walk a golf course for four days. Or play 100 games of basketball. It's really impossible to describe how hard it is to do what they do. I think most people understand this fact and a lot of his respect comes from this understanding.

Americans have always celebrated individualism and displays of intestinal fortitude. This event combines both.

I don't know how old you were when Greg LeMond won all his Tour de France titles, but he was/is something of a cultural icon too, after coming back from being shot during a hunting accident. Not on Armstrong's level, but certainly a hero in a lot of people's eyes. If you mention his name to someone, chances are they're aware of who he is.

3. I don't know. I don't really care about famous figures' personal lives. As long as he didn't beat, rape, murder, or kidnap his ex-wife, it's really none of my business.

[Buzzbee]

But as Maple Leafs says below, the fact that a (to a non-cycling fan) relatively obscure athlete in a generally obscure sport (for Americans) has ascended to this plateau is what fascinates me--especially when you take into account that seven TdF's later, cycling is still just as obscure. Americans don't care about cycling. We don't care about the TdF. We care about Lance Armstrong, and that's what baffles me, this excising of the athlete completely out of his natural sporting context and making him into a cultural star while leaving all the trappings of his success (i.e. his sport) in obscurity.

I think you undervalue what he has done for cycling. Case in point - the Tour de Georgia.

Three years ago it drew 20,000 people. Last year it drew 70,000. This year it is expected to draw over 100,000 (it is going on right now). Why the increase? Last year and this year Lance competed. The event is expected to bring in over $100 million to the Georgia economy. He HAS made an impact on the popularity of the sport. He may not have elevated it to the level of golf or basketball a la Tiger and Jordan, but I bet if the Tour de France were an event held on American soil, the comparisons to golf and basketball would be much closer.

In a nutshell, I think you underestimate his impact as an athlete, a cancer survivor (and inspirational figure to MANY), and as a person Americans can celebrate. Therefore it is hard for you to reconcile why he is so popular.

[wishbone]

Here's what he raced in last year:

Tour of Algarve, Portugal
Tour of Murcia, Spain
Milan - San Remo, Italy
Critérium International, France
Tour de Georgia, USA
Tour du Languedoc-Rousillon, France
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré, France
Tour de France
Men's Olympic Time Trial, Athens, Greece
T-Mobile International, San Francisco, CA USA

The Tour de France last year was 20 stages, raced between July 3rd and July 25th covering 3,400km (~2100 miles). His total race time was 83 hours, 36 minutes.

The USPS no longer sponsors the team. It is now Discovery Channel.
I retract the statement that he participates in one event per year. I also place my statement about him and the post office in the past tense, however, I am pissed that the USPS sponsored him until recently. I reserve the right to be pissed at the Discovery Channel if they make a show called American Bicycle.

[terpkristin]

Let us also not forget the Tour de Cure. I don't mean to say that it's a competitive thing (it's not) but it was a long event and did raise some necessary fundage and awareness.

/tk

[Buccaneer]

Just for the record, there are still billions of people world wide who don't care about golf.
or Tiger Woods.

[Drake]

So it could also be that I don't care about Lance Armstrong because I don't pay attention to cycling. In this, perhaps Buzzbee really is hitting the nail on the head. I don't see why he's so important because I don't place any value on his sport. I'm not particularly impressed with his survival of cancer, because I've also survived a near-fatal brush with spinal meningitis/encephalitis, so returning to a level of performance similar to or even superior to one's condition prior to the brush with death isn't something that strikes me as particularly outrageous, since I've done it myself.

On the other hand, I do like basketball and I do (sort of, anyway) like golf, so accomplishments in those venues seem more impressive to me. I think Desnudo also made a good point about Greg LeMond. I remember LeMond winning the TdF, and I remember rooting for him because he was an American, but I didn't realize at the time that he had his own cachet as a cultural icon (though maybe I wouldn't have noticed, because I was only like twelve the last time he won). LeMond's value wasn't apparent to me because I didn't care about cycling even then.

I suppose that similarly there are folks who win major awards in poetry, engineering, environmentalism and assorted academic fields who are also celebrated as "cultural icons" within their areas of expertise, but whom I also wouldn't understand why they're so valued by broad swaths of people. At the end of the day, maybe the problem (if it should even be called a problem, which I doubt) is with me.

Thanks for helping me work through this, folks. I appreciate everyone's input.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

you'll understand it when they make a big movie about him. it will be a tearjerker.
What if it's on Fox?

[Galaxy]

1. You don't have to care about him. Personally, I think he comes off as an uptight jerk, but that doesn't diminish his accomplishments.

2. Bike racing is huge in Europe. The Tour de France is popular in the US. Compared to Tiger Woods and golf, or even Jordan and basketball, it's much harder to ride a bike 100+ miles a day, up and down mountains, for weeks at a time than it is to walk a golf course for four days. Or play 100 games of basketball. It's really impossible to describe how hard it is to do what they do. I think most people understand this fact and a lot of his respect comes from this understanding.

Americans have always celebrated individualism and displays of intestinal fortitude. This event combines both.

I don't know how old you were when Greg LeMond won all his Tour de France titles, but he was/is something of a cultural icon too, after coming back from being shot during a hunting accident. Not on Armstrong's level, but certainly a hero in a lot of people's eyes. If you mention his name to someone, chances are they're aware of who he is.

3. I don't know. I don't really care about famous figures' personal lives. As long as he didn't beat, rape, murder, or kidnap his ex-wife, it's really none of my business.

Is the Tour de France even televised on regular cable?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Is the Tour de France even televised on regular cable?It depends on the system. OLN was on my lineup for a while when I was in Houston, before disappearing around the time of the TdF last year ( :mad: ). I think it's in my lineup now, but I'm not sure.

[fantastic flying froggies]

i jsut like him cuz he pisses off the French.That's funny, because he doesn't piss off the French at all. In fact, he's a pretty popular and respected rider here as well.

Also, FYI, the Tour de France is not a specifically french event, out of the roughly 200 riders starting the race every year, probably only 40 are french, the rest come from all over the world.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Here's what he raced in last year:

Tour of Algarve, Portugal
Tour of Murcia, Spain
Milan - San Remo, Italy
Critérium International, France
Tour de Georgia, USA
Tour du Languedoc-Rousillon, France
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré, France
Tour de France
Men's Olympic Time Trial, Athens, Greece
T-Mobile International, San Francisco, CA USA
Wishbone is partly right though, in the sense that most of these races are only preparation for the Tour de France. He does in fact race in only 1 major cycling event per year, for example he never races the Vuelta or Giro, or even the World Championship.

[SFL Cat]

Nice story, coming back from cancer and everything...

...but to ditch your wife, who sticks by you while you recover from a life-threatening disease for (ugh) Chery Crow? Not only does it show a complete lack of taste, but not a lot of class.

[Anthony]

That's funny, because he doesn't piss off the French at all. In fact, he's a pretty popular and respected rider here as well.

Also, FYI, the Tour de France is not a specifically french event, out of the roughly 200 riders starting the race every year, probably only 40 are french, the rest come from all over the world.

well, if he doesn't piss of you guys then i'm going to have to rethink about my stance on Lance. i really couldn't care less about cycling.

[cartman]

Nice story, coming back from cancer and everything...

...but to ditch your wife, who sticks by you while you recover from a life-threatening disease for (ugh) Chery Crow? Not only does it show a complete lack of taste, but not a lot of class.

This is a common misperception out there about the divorce. They met while he was undergoing treatment for the cancer, and didn't get married until the treatment was almost through. There is a very high divorce rate in general for people who meet under such circumstances, like medical recovery situations, or other tragic major life events. After the situation changes, and one of the parties recovers completely, the pillars that started the relationship aren't there anymore, and in most cases, the relationship doesn't survive the changes needed. Not to say this is what happened in this case, but it is a very common occurrence.

Second, he didn't divorce his wife to be with Sheryl Crow. He didn't have anybody waiting in the wings. He didn't meet her until several months after the divorce.

[Glengoyne]

Is the Tour de France even televised on regular cable?
As mentioned above OLN has televised the event for the past several years, and they are pretty commonly on the list base cable channels. This year, since Discovery is taking over the USPostal team, I have a feeling they might even be doing some kind of coverage of their own.

As for racing not being all that big in the US, well It is getting bigger. Lance Armstrong is one reason the sport's growth here. It is HUGE in Europe. I'd wager that it is easilly bigger than golf in Europe. I became interested in Cycling back when Lemond won his Tours. One of the most memorable sports moments I've seen was Lemond's victory in a time trial on the last stage. He made up over a minute on that leg, and won the tour by something like 9 seconds.

I've always been an Armstrong fan, and yes, especially in the last couple of years his team has been key to his wins. Prior to that he was so dominant in the mountains that I don't think his team played near as large a role.

as for:
so returning to a level of performance similar to or even superior to one's condition prior to the brush with death isn't something that strikes me as particularly outrageous, since I've done it myself.
I think this underscores your misunderstanding of what he did. He was a world class cyclist....he got cancer.....he made it through that....he came back and became possibly the greatest cyclist of all time. You have done nothing even remote similar. *not to detract from your recovery, I know someone who is recovering from encephalitis, and it is a difficult path. But just because you are in better shape/condition now than you were before your illness doesn't draw a parallell to Lance Armstong.

[cuervo72]

Drake is apparently into getting second opinions...

[cody8200]

I'm from Austin, Texas and I agree with Drake 100%. It's ridiculous.

And Crow is a downgrade from his first wife, IMO. But she's famous so she's assumed to be hotter. She sure as shit ain't as good a person as Kristin.

But I'll be honest. I thought Armstrong was a great story. Then he ditched his wife that stuck with him through all the problems once he got big. So now he's a POS. End of story.


I agree with all of this 100 percent. Lance is a POS.

[DanGarion]

I agree with all of this 100 percent. Lance is a POS.


So once again, you are placing the blame entirely one Lance? His wife holds no responsibility in their divorce?

[Franklinnoble]

So once again, you are placing the blame entirely one Lance? His wife holds no responsibility in their divorce?
From what I understand, his wife was a little weary of Lance not being around for her and the kids... seeing as how she stuck with him through cancer and his career resurgence, I think after 5 years, he could have given a little time back to her and his kids.

The agreement to split was mutual... because she wanted more of Lance, but Lance wanted more of his cycling/endorsement career.

Maybe they were civil about it. And kudos to her for not being publicly bitter about it. But Lance is still an ass.