Weenies.

[Ben E Lou]

Column: Softball coach snaps the unwritten rules

BY JEFF NELSON When written rules are broken, punishment follows.

It's a basic tenet in sports, and one we see practiced nearly every day.

What we don't often see, and frankly, what I can't ever recall seeing, is a punishment for breaking unwritten rules. But that appears to be what took place at Central Cabarrus High this past week.

Softball coach Monte Sherrill was suspended by the school for two games after his team, which is ranked fourth in the nation by USA Today, beat West Charlotte, 55-0, on April 15.

Go ahead and read that score again; it's not a typo. And to make matters worse, the game lasted just two innings (two innings!) before West Charlotte's athletic director asked officials to end it.

According to a published report, the coach and athletic director at Central Cabarrus won't comment on the game or the suspension, but the West Charlotte athletic director said Central Cabarrus continued to play aggressively as the Vikings scored 30 runs in the first inning and 25 more in the second.

While I wasn't at the game and can't know all of the circumstances surrounding the game, I did talk with four Union County softball coaches about the score and suspension, and they helped me come to a conclusion: Sherrill could have prevented the score from reaching such laughable heights, and because he didn't, he deserved a suspension.

To make things clear, none of the four county coaches could say with certainty that they agreed with the suspension. They all said they needed more information.

But Eddie Rivers of Forest Hills, Misty Tarleton of Parkwood, Tad Baucom of Piedmont, and Sarah Keziah of Monroe all said there are a common set of unwritten rules for coaching in a blowout, and those rules shouldn't be broken.

"There's a lot of ways to avoid letting (the score) get away from you," Baucom said. "You can hit balls to the fence and stop your kids at first base. On the 35 or so passed balls, you don't take a base. And you don't steal a base."

By playing this brand of station-to-station softball, you give the opposing team as many chances as possible to record three outs each inning without an excess of runs crossing the plate. Once you have a big lead, it's also common to put in backups who aren't as good and don't often get a chance to play.

Scores can still get out of hand this way - there have been several cases of 15-0 type scores in the county this year - but teams never approach the point of humiliation.

The N.C. High School Athletic Association does have a mercy rule that's meant to protect against excessive blowouts - if one team is ahead by more than 10 after five innings, the game is called - but because of the severe gap in talent between many teams, these unwritten rules are often needed to just get to the fifth inning with a respectable score.

In all fairness, sometimes it's hard to keep the score down, Rivers said, and he can understand a bad blowout every now and then. After all, he won't actually tell his kids to strike out on purpose or make an out on purpose.

"I'm not going to make a travesty of the game to not embarrass you," he said. "On the other hand, if (Sherrill) didn't do the things you're supposed to do, then I think he's making a travesty of the game."

The things you're supposed to do ... the unwritten rules ... that's what this is about.

Monroe has been on the losing end of a couple 10-run games to county opponents this year, but Keziah said her Redhawks were facing teams with integrity who didn't let things get out of hand.

"The Piedmont team, the Forest Hills team, those are the two we've played locally and they've gone out of their way to make sure that we were not humiliated," Keziah said. "Piedmont and Forest Hills have class. They treat us with respect; they don't try to humiliate our girls."

If Central Cabarrus was trying to humiliate West Charlotte, the Vikings' motive could have dealt with personal reasons we don't know about. Or, as two coaches suggested, the Vikings may have been trying to pad their stats to improve their national ranking.

Both of those are poor excuses, however, and neither can absolve Sherrill for allowing his team's rout.

When all four county coaches were asked if there's any reason a team should score 55 runs, they all said no. When they were asked if they could prevent their team from scoring 55 runs, they all said yes.

Play by the unwritten rules, and it won't happen.

Don't play by the unwritten rules, and you get suspended That's a pathetic take. If you want to extend the mercy rule, then extend the mercy rule. Sports, however, have clearly-defined written rules. That's what makes them work. There are yard lines, foul lines, officials, and detailed rule books. Every rule is carefully thought out, usually discussed before a committee, and included or excluded from the book. You don't suspend a coach for breaking an "unwritten" rule. What in the WORLD???

Now, I'm not remotely justifying his actions. If, as this article suggests, he intentionally piled it on against a much-weaker team, then he is a cruel man. The association should create a better rule. (Easy: 15-run deficit at any time, but if it is before the 5th inning, visiting coach has the choice of whether or not to continue. After 5, it is over.) The Athletic Director and Principal should have chewed up one side of his butt and down the other. If he did it AGAIN, he should be suspended for insubordination. No problem with that, but for breaking an "unwritten rule????" Gimme a break. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[FrogMan]

woah, what's with all the underlining???

FM

[Ben E Lou]

woah, what's with all the underlining???

FMDidn't mean to. Going to edit now. Hmmmmmm

[FrogMan]

Didn't mean to. Going to edit now. Hmmmmmm
yeah, didn't think you meant to either, just happens sometimes when copy/pasting...

FM

[Galaxy]

Wasn't this why Spurrier was not like by opposing teams in college?

[Passacaglia]

Didn't mean to. Going to edit now. Hmmmmmm

Why, is there some sort of unwritten rule against underlining?

[kcchief19]

I see your point. I think this writer took a pretty weak-ass position. I extremely doubt that the coach's superiors said, "You broke an unwritten rule and you're suspended." What I think is morely likely is that they said, "You demonstrated poor sportsmanship by humiliating a much weaker opponent intentionally and your actions reflect poorly on our school so you're suspended."

Lots of information isn't there. If the guy left his starters in when it was 30-0 in the first inning and was stealing and taking extra bases, then I think there are definite grounds for the guy being a tool and suspeneded. It's high school sports. No reason to humiliate the kids like that.

On the other hand, if there were indeed 35 passed balls, it's hard to keep a game like that from getting ugly. Sounds like one coach is a tool and the other one is inept.

[Blackadar]

Just FYI, I live in Cabarrus County, so I'm familar with the situation.

Sherill had been warned in the past about lopsided scores and there's some talk that he had a grudge with someone at West Charlotte. The suspension is very likely deserved.

Sherill is the weenie.

[gstelmack]

It would help the reporter if he could have taken the 30 seconds to look up the freakin' box score and attach it to the article. That would quickly answer the question of number of passed balls, extra-base hits, errors, how many subs were used, and the like. But heaven forbid a reporter might includes some actual evidence in his article rather than sticking to all the hearsay and reports from coaches not even at the game.

[Balldog]

Yuck, we were beaten 26-2 three years ago.

It was 22-0 after the 2nd inning. Luckily they didn't have a JV game that day so they dressed about 10 extra kids. If they hadn't I wouldn't have been shocked if they would have put up 30 or 40 on us that day.

[Joe]

if you don't like the score, play better.

[Desnudo]

if you don't like the score, play better.

Better get the word out, this could revolutionize sport.

[Joe]

Better get the word out, this could revolutionize sport.


it could at least revolutionize softball in NC

[Desnudo]

it could at least revolutionize softball in NC

Ah, well I guess that would be considered progress. Of some sort.

[JonInMiddleGA]

if you don't like the score, play better.

Bingo.

Compete, or stay the fuck off the field.

[DeToxRox]

The Michigan High School Hockey record for most goals in a game is like 45? Finally the instituted the mercy rule that if a game is 10-0 after the second, the game is over. It's a lot harder to do in hockey, but to think someone put up 45 is pretty fucking impressive.

[Huckleberry]

Bingo.

Compete, or stay the fuck off the field.
I don't see where it says that the West Charlotte coaches/administration asked for Sherrill to be suspended.

[DeToxRox]

I don't see where it says that the West Charlotte coaches/administration asked for Sherrill to be suspended.

It shouldn't matter. If you can't field a team that is competitive, then don't play. I hated games where we had to hold back from totally embarassing a team. It doesn't do any good for either team. It becomes a waste of time to just show up to these games, so why even play them? If you're only going to be allowed to beat a team 10-0 so you can seem respectable, why not just take the 3-0 forfeit and save everyones time?

[Blackadar]

Again, people aren't comprehending this...

Cabarrus (his own school) suspended him b/c he's been warned for this before. It's funny how everyone is coming down on his side on the board while locally (remember, this is the hometown HS that my son will likely attend) no one is supporting the coach. Of course, there's quite a few folks who are taking the half-wit who wrote the above article as gospel.

I'd take the local opinion since we're more "in the know".

[DeToxRox]

Again, people aren't comprehending this...

Cabarrus (his own school) suspended him b/c he's been warned for this before. It's funny how everyone is coming down on his side on the board while locally (remember, this is the hometown HS that my son will likely attend) no one is supporting the coach. Of course, there's quite a few folks who are taking the half-wit who wrote the above article as gospel.

I'd take the local opinion since we're more "in the know".

I understand that. I'm just saying that it isn't fair to his team and defies all logic you're taught in sports as far as giving your all every game. Now because a team isn't good, and from the sounds of it shouldn't even be playing (at least in this league) you're making them go half hearted?

It'd make me contemplate not even playing. Why waste my time when we all know this game is going to be a route after an inning?

[Lucky Jim]

I've been on the winning side of some real idiotic games in high school baseball, and almost this exact situation my freshman year when we beat a team 52-0. With nobody out in the middle of our 35 run second inning our coach took the whole "station to station" policy we'd been playing under to a new level and just started telling people to watch strikes go by, but they couldn't throw strikes then so that wasn't working. So we went to the really uncomfortable situation of having people swinging at anything and trying to miss. After two straight outs this way, and basically anyone near the field feeling really crappy, my coach turned to me on third base and said loud enough for the pitcher to hear, "Just get picked off, just walk off a little and stand there." So I did, and the pitcher threw the ball over the third baseman's head, and I continued to stand there as the third baseman ran the ball down and then ran the ball back and tagged me. We had to play two more innings of the swing and miss strategy as we were playing under 10 after 4, or 8 after 5, mercy rules.

Probably the stupidest thing I've ever seen. But you'd be surprised how quickly things get out of hand, and we didn't have that many options for subs as the guys on the bench were our usual junior and senior starters. Sometimes at the high school level the talent discrepancy is so huge, and in sports where you can't simply eat clock, things can get ridiculous. I know that there was nothing we could do to prevent what happened shy of going to the swing and miss policy sooner, and all that would have done was make the scoreline look better, the embarassment would have been just as bad. Games like this aren't fun for either side.

[Franklinnoble]

Only in womens' and childrens' sports is this an issue.

Think about it.

[DeToxRox]

I've been on the winning side of some real idiotic games in high school baseball, and almost this exact situation my freshman year when we beat a team 52-0. With nobody out in the middle of our 35 run second inning our coach took the whole "station to station" policy we'd been playing under to a new level and just started telling people to watch strikes go by, but they couldn't throw strikes then so that wasn't working. So we went to the really uncomfortable situation of having people swinging at anything and trying to miss. After two straight outs this way, and basically anyone near the field feeling really crappy, my coach turned to me on third base and said loud enough for the pitcher to hear, "Just get picked off, just walk off a little and stand there." So I did, and the pitcher threw the ball over the third baseman's head, and I continued to stand there as the third baseman ran the ball down and then ran the ball back and tagged me. We had to play two more innings of the swing and miss strategy as we were playing under 10 after 4, or 8 after 5, mercy rules.

Probably the stupidest thing I've ever seen. But you'd be surprised how quickly things get out of hand, and we didn't have that many options for subs as the guys on the bench were our usual junior and senior starters. Sometimes at the high school level the talent discrepancy is so huge, and in sports where you can't simply eat clock, things can get ridiculous. I know that there was nothing we could do to prevent what happened shy of going to the swing and miss policy sooner, and all that would have done was make the scoreline look better, the embarassment would have been just as bad. Games like this aren't fun for either side.

EXACTLY.

Last year our hockey team (I was the goalie) played this team and we were up 12-0 through the second. They had three shots on goal. I was never so bored in my life. To keep the pace going my coach told me to play all icings. That kind of stuff to me makes the other team look even worse.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sorry, I guess I should have made it clearer that I was commenting on the ridiculous circumstances that created this situation in the first place.

As for being suspended, WTF this guy would want to work for this particular school system (given their decision to suspend) is beyond me.

My child would never play again for a coach who ordered anything beyond a mild station-to-station (i.e. don't stretch something that's close, but if the ball is up against the fence, you don't just stop at first either). First, you're out there to compete & win, secondarily, you hope they learn something valuable in the process ... and I find no value at all in teaching either set of kids that you just go totally slack in that situation. In fact, I find it to be about the worst possible lesson you could teach, especially the ones on the short end of the scoreboard -- get out here in the real world, trust me, your competition isn't going to slack up & there ain't no mercy rules.

[Desnudo]

Again, people aren't comprehending this...

Cabarrus (his own school) suspended him b/c he's been warned for this before. It's funny how everyone is coming down on his side on the board while locally (remember, this is the hometown HS that my son will likely attend) no one is supporting the coach. Of course, there's quite a few folks who are taking the half-wit who wrote the above article as gospel.

I'd take the local opinion since we're more "in the know".

I think the difference is you're thinking of the specific local issue, while everyone else is generalizing, based on their opinion about this topic.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Only in womens' and childrens' sports is this an issue.

Think about it.

Depending upon your definition of "children's sports", I don't know if that's entirely accurate. I've seen this sort of thing at the small college level occasionally in men's sports (soccer is one example) and seen it countless times in varsity high school male sports.

[Blackadar]

I understand that. I'm just saying that it isn't fair to his team and defies all logic you're taught in sports as far as giving your all every game. Now because a team isn't good, and from the sounds of it shouldn't even be playing (at least in this league) you're making them go half hearted?

It'd make me contemplate not even playing. Why waste my time when we all know this game is going to be a route after an inning?

Because this is HIGH SCHOOL sports. It's not professional. It's not semi-pro. It's not even college sports. It's a fucking girls high school softball game. It's supposed to be played for fun. The talent of a given high school team can radically change from year to year as kids graduate and come on board.

Jon's comment of "stay the fuck off the field" is about the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Guess they can't all be Jennie Finch, can they Jon? So if Cabarrus HS has a shitty team next year, they shouldn't play? Wow, what a great idea! Only play high school sports if you can field a good team - sportmanship, school spirit, community pride and teamwork be damned - it's all about the wins and losses, right??

[gstelmack]

Again, people aren't comprehending this...

Cabarrus (his own school) suspended him b/c he's been warned for this before. It's funny how everyone is coming down on his side on the board while locally (remember, this is the hometown HS that my son will likely attend) no one is supporting the coach. Of course, there's quite a few folks who are taking the half-wit who wrote the above article as gospel.

I'd take the local opinion since we're more "in the know".
Well, I asked for a box score so I could at least see more about what actually happened. And school boards don't exactly have a great track record at making intelligent decisions.

And besides, today seems to be turning into my "disagree with anything Blackadar says" day, so I'm kind of obligated to debate the point by now http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Desnudo]

Sorry, I guess I should have made it clearer that I was commenting on the ridiculous circumstances that created this situation in the first place.

As for being suspended, WTF this guy would want to work for this particular school system (given their decision to suspend) is beyond me.

My child would never play again for a coach who ordered anything beyond a mild station-to-station (i.e. don't stretch something that's close, but if the ball is up against the fence, you don't just stop at first either). First, you're out there to compete & win, secondarily, you hope they learn something valuable in the process ... and I find no value at all in teaching either set of kids that you just go totally slack in that situation. In fact, I find it to be about the worst possible lesson you could teach, especially the ones on the short end of the scoreboard -- get out here in the real world, trust me, your competition isn't going to slack up & there ain't no mercy rules.

Sweep the knee! This wasn't you by any chance was it?

"Jill Taylor, Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
The Palm Beach Post
05-19-2001
ANGRY PARENT STRIKES UMPIRE AT BASEBALL GAME, POLICE SAY
BYLINE: Jill Taylor, Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
EDITION: MARTIN-ST. LUCIE
SECTION: LOCAL

STUART -- An angry parent was arrested on charges he hit a Little League umpire and cut one of his truck tires after a game at Wojcieszak Park Thursday night.

Tracy Seegott, 35, of 996 S.W. 29th Terrace was released from the Martin County jail on $750 bail on charges of battery and criminal mischief. "

[Kevin]

Franklin's got it. In most men's sports, there's an unwritten rule about how to combat this. Brushbacks, hard slides, runner obstruction, etc will make the other coach back off to protect his players from his own idiocy.

[ThunderingHERD]

Hey, I live in Cabarrus County!

That's about it.

[DeToxRox]

Because this is HIGH SCHOOL sports. It's not professional. It's not semi-pro. It's not even college sports. It's a fucking girls high school softball game. It's supposed to be played for fun. The talent of a given high school team can radically change from year to year as kids graduate and come on board.

Jon's comment of "stay the fuck off the field" is about the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Guess they can't all be Jennie Finch, can they Jon? So if Cabarrus HS has a shitty team next year, they shouldn't play? Wow, what a great idea! Only play high school sports if you can field a good team - sportmanship, school spirit, community pride and teamwork be damned - it's all about the wins and losses, right??

And I just got done with playing four years of varsity high school hockey.

In Michigan, if a team cannot compete in a certain league, they drop down to the next lowest level. It continues until either the team finds a way to compete or they just drop the program. Southfield High School Hockey went over FOUR YEARS without a win, regularly losing games by double digits before they just scrapped the program.

Yeah it is about having fun, but having played on our baseball team which wasn't very good, it isn't fun going to the park every day knowing you can only keep it close if the other team plays half assed.

[VPI97]

Because this is HIGH SCHOOL sports. It's not professional. It's not semi-pro. It's not even college sports. It's a fucking girls high school softball game. It's supposed to be played for fun. The talent of a given high school team can radically change from year to year as kids graduate and come on board. I agree it should be about fun, but where's the fun for the Cabarrus girls if they have to stop playing the game the way they're supposed to? It's fun for their starters to have to leave the game just because they the other team is that bad? If the coach was consciously trying to run up the score, then that's one thing...but I can't see how letting the girls play the game the way they enjoy it is anything wrong.

[Blackadar]

No box scores, but here's what happened. This team is a friggin' powerhouse and has won State Championships. They have a starting pitcher that went something like 26-1 last year and an ERA under 1/2 a run a game. They could beat most boys' teams.

Specifically, he was warned last year. He was then strongly warned after the Harding game. He ignored those and then was suspended after the West Meck game.

Their schedule this year...

Day Date Opponent Site Time Result Class
Sat Feb 26 Forbush Away TBA Scrimmage
Sat Mar 5 North Davidson Away TBA Scrimmage
Wed Mar 23 Northwest Cabarrus Away 4:00 PM W 11-0 County
Thurs Mar10 JM Robinson(Endow.) Home 4:00 PM W 3-1 County
Fri Mar 11 Mount Pleasant Home 4:00 PM W 8-0 County
Tues Mar 15 West Charlotte Home 4:00 PM W 20-0 MECA 8
Fri Mar 18 Riverside, SC Away 7:00 PM W 8-0
Sat Mar 19 Indian Land , SC Away 11:00 AM W 3-0
Sat Mar 19 Spring Valley, SC Away 1:00 PM W 3-0
Tues Mar 22 Vance Home 4:00 PM W 20-0 MECA 8
Wed Apr 13 West Mecklenburg Away 4:00 PM W 20-0 MECA 8
Fri Mar 25 Montour, PA Home 4:00 PM W 4-2
Tues Apr 5 Independence Home 5:30 PM W 15-0 MECA 8
Wed Apr 6 Hopewell Away 5:30 PM W 5-1 MECA 8
Fri Apr 8 Harding Away 5:30 PM W 30-0 MECA 8
Thurs Apr 21 North Mecklenburg Home 5:30 PM W 7-1 MECA 8
Fri Apr 15 West Charlotte Away 4:00 PM W 57-0 MECA 8
Sat Apr 16 Mauldin, SC Home 6:00 PM W 1-0
Tues Apr 19 Hopewell Home 5:30 PM W 4-3 MECA 8
Fri Apr 22 Vance Away 5:30 PM W 12-0 MECA 8
Tues Apr 26 West Mecklenburg Home 5:30 PM W 9-0 MECA 8

[VPI97]

dola -

"There's a lot of ways to avoid letting (the score) get away from you," Baucom said. "You can hit balls to the fence and stop your kids at first base. On the 35 or so passed balls, you don't take a base. And you don't steal a base."
I have a problem with this quote. To me, making the girls stop at first base on a well-hit ball is taking the fun away from the Cabarrus girls. On the other hand, if the coach instructed them to keep taking bases on passed balls, then that's something that he shouldn't have let continue. Where do you draw the line?

[JonInMiddleGA]

There are, at least in my experience with h.s. sports, a number of way to combat this sort of thing. The most common of which is playing what is known as a "non-region schedule" -- basically means that you know full well that you are not remotely competitive in your assigned region & you do not attempt to compete with them directly. Instead, you schedule teams more to your ability & play them, forfeiting any eligibility for post-season play (which you weren't going to get anyway).

A number of programs have rebuilt themselves over a few years using this method, most recent example was (if anybody remembers last year's GA h.s. football threads) Pike County. Granted, it took the arrival of an outstanding coach to get them over the hump, but this is a team that had/threatened the all-time consecutive loss streak at one point & turned into a darned good team after years of suckitude.

If a state doesn't have a similar option (or other/better alternatives) shame on them.

[DeToxRox]

dola -


I have a problem with this quote. To me, making the girls stop at first base on a well-hit ball is taking the fun away from the Cabarrus girls. On the other hand, if the coach instructed them to keep taking bases on passed balls, then that's something that he shouldn't have let continue. Where do you draw the line?
[/size][/size]

Exactly. All you're doing is showing your dominance over the other team. This can all be avoided by doing what someone previously in the thread (apologies as i forgot whom) stated in making a rule that if it gets to a 15 run defecit then you just end the game because chances are it's only getting uglier.

[Franklinnoble]

Franklin's got it. In most men's sports, there's an unwritten rule about how to combat this. Brushbacks, hard slides, runner obstruction, etc will make the other coach back off to protect his players from his own idiocy.
That's pretty much what I meant. If I'm on a team, and I'm getting killed 20-0 in the first inning, and the fuckers don't back off, you can bet I'm throwing at their dome for the rest of the game until they chill out.

[GoldenEagle]

That is insane. If your not good enough then do not step on the field. What is he suppose to do? If the other team sucks so bad then you have no choice. What a bunch of cry babies.

[Blackadar]

I agree it should be about fun, but where's the fun for the Cabarrus girls if they have to stop playing the game the way they're supposed to? It's fun for their starters to have to leave the game just because they the other team is that bad? If the coach was consciously trying to run up the score, then that's one thing...but I can't see how letting the girls play the game the way they enjoy it is anything wrong.

See my above post. West Meck isn't that bad. Central Cabarrus is just better than anyone else around. One other note...Central Cabarrus is a fairly "well to do" school while West Meck is a poor school. Again, those of us in Cabarrus County tend to think he deserved his suspension and life goes on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Note to self: NEVER, under any circumstance, live in Cabarrus County.

[VPI97]

There are, at least in my experience with h.s. sports, a number of way to combat this sort of thing. The most common of which is playing what is known as a "non-region schedule" -- basically means that you know full well that you are not remotely competitive in your assigned region & you do not attempt to compete with them directly. Instead, you schedule teams more to your ability & play them, forfeiting any eligibility for post-season play (which you weren't going to get anyway).

If a state doesn't have a similar option (or other/better alternatives) shame on them.
A high school in my district did that sort of thing for their wrestling program. They had won seven straight state championships and eventually their scedule consisted of duals with the four other district schools + national trips to Florida, Iowa, Pennsylvania, etc. The state recognized the intent, so their eligibility in the post-season tournaments were intact, but it was the best possible move by both the school and the state.

[DeToxRox]

That's pretty much what I meant. If I'm on a team, and I'm getting killed 20-0 in the first inning, and the fuckers don't back off, you can bet I'm throwing at their dome for the rest of the game until they chill out.

Here, here.

Last year, we actually had a fight break out in a game when we were up 8-0 in the second on a team. Their kids decided enough was enough. The only problem was their guys were also much smaller then our guys, we while they tried starting fights, our guys just pushed them around and made them look more foolish, but they stood up for themselves and started playing better after.

[Desnudo]

dola -


I have a problem with this quote. To me, making the girls stop at first base on a well-hit ball is taking the fun away from the Cabarrus girls. On the other hand, if the coach instructed them to keep taking bases on passed balls, then that's something that he shouldn't have let continue. Where do you draw the line?
[/size][/size]

What fun is it? You're up 30-0. Have you ever been on the winning side of a blow out before? It's boring as anything.

[DeToxRox]

A high school in my district did that sort of thing for their wrestling program. They had won seven straight state championships and eventually their scedule consisted of duals with the four other district schools + national trips to Florida, Iowa, Pennsylvania, etc. The state recognized the intent, so their eligibility in the post-season tournaments were intact, but it was the best possible move by both the school and the state.

Catholic Central Hockey does that here. They've won 7 of the last 8 State D1 Hockey Titles, so now early on they go out of state and play the top prep schools in the country, noteably Culver Academy.

Then they come back, play in their Catholic League (which has the best D3 team too, Cranbrook). Hell, they didn't win their league during a few of their State Titles, but only because Cranbrook is a D3 school who should be playing D1.

[JonInMiddleGA]

A high school in my district did that sort of thing for their wrestling program. They had won seven straight state championships and eventually their scedule consisted of duals with the four other district schools + national trips to Florida, Iowa, Pennsylvania, etc. The state recognized the intent, so their eligibility in the post-season tournaments were intact, but it was the best possible move by both the school and the state.

Wow, that's something I hadn't even considered, working a non-region schedule in reverse I mean. I don't know that we've ever had any schools come close to that sort of situation in any sport (although I bet SD or somebody can find an example that I've failed to consider). But it's an interesting application of that sort of rule that I've never really heard of.

[Lucky Jim]

I have a problem with this quote. To me, making the girls stop at first base on a well-hit ball is taking the fun away from the Cabarrus girls. On the other hand, if the coach instructed them to keep taking bases on passed balls, then that's something that he shouldn't have let continue. Where do you draw the line?

I'm telling you man, in games without a clock that you can just sit on there's no line that's going to stop a total embarassment in a situation like this. Any team that you are capable of beating by fifty runs is not capable of keeping the game close under almost any circumstances. And the unwritten rules others have mentioned about brushbacks and/or taking people out do not apply in these situations. Beaning someone is what you do when they're stealing bases up seven or eight in the last inning or something. If you don't have the ability to keep a game within twenty runs, then you don't have the ability to intimidate either.

[VPI97]

See my above post. West Meck isn't that bad. Central Cabarrus is just better than anyone else around. One other note...Central Cabarrus is a fairly "well to do" school while West Meck is a poor school. Again, those of us in Cabarrus County tend to think he deserved his suspension and life goes on. I can see your point considering you have first hand knowledge of the situation...I was pulling more from personal experience. My high school football team was one that was very good and we beat the majority of teams on our schedule quite easily. But nothing pissed me off more than to have to leave the field because we were up by x amount of points. I was out there to have fun playing a sport I loved and it just seemed wrong to me that I was being penalized for being better than the opposition. I hated leaving the game.

[Blackadar]

Note to self: NEVER, under any circumstance, live in Cabarrus County.

Please don't. The IQ here is pretty high and I don't want to see our average pulled down.

[DeToxRox]

What fun is it? You're up 30-0. Have you ever been on the winning side of a blow out before? It's boring as anything.

Yup. And generally you (as someone on the winning team) treats the game as such a joke that you show a lot of disrespect, intentionally or not. You just have to find something to do to kill the time in something like that.

[gstelmack]

I have a problem with this quote. To me, making the girls stop at first base on a well-hit ball is taking the fun away from the Cabarrus girls. On the other hand, if the coach instructed them to keep taking bases on passed balls, then that's something that he shouldn't have let continue. Where do you draw the line?
I've got another problem with that quote. If the other team really generated 35 passed balls, at what point do you start considering it dangerous for those kids to even be on the field? If they can't throw straight, how long until someone gets really hurt? Can they at least catch?

We had someone on our company softball team get seriously hurt after misjudging a fly ball and taking it right on the forehead. Sounds like this other team is flirting with the same thing.

[DeToxRox]

Please don't. The IQ here is pretty high and I don't want to see our average pulled down.

Oh man. SkyDog has started a thread that will turn to pure gold.

[VPI97]

What fun is it? You're up 30-0. Have you ever been on the winning side of a blow out before? It's boring as anything. I was always of the mind that participating in the game was the fun part...it didn't matter that we were losing or winning...I just wanted to play. Maybe the difference is comparing football to softball, I don't know.

[Desnudo]

Yup. And generally you (as someone on the winning team) treats the game as such a joke that you show a lot of disrespect, intentionally or not. You just have to find something to do to kill the time in something like that.

Yes, you generally feel bored and uncomfortable, depending on your level of sportsmanship. It's not like games like these are fun for anyone involved. The best thing would be to have some sort of "coaches" option where both coaches agree to the result after it's obvious one team is killing the other. If the teams still want to play, let them scrimmage.

[Desnudo]

I was always of the mind that participating in the game was the fun part...it didn't matter that we were losing or winning...I just wanted to play. Maybe the difference is comparing football to softball, I don't know.

It sounds like the difference is in competitiveness. I know I enjoy a sport a lot more when I'm winning, than when I'm losing. Obviously that's not the whole thing, or even the main thing, but it's a factor.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Please don't. The IQ here is pretty high and I don't want to see our average pulled down.

Hmm ... maybe you're right. Still can't figure out why they've left the bleeding hearts in charge of the schools though.

2004 GENERAL ELECTION RESULTS FOR CABARRUS COUNTY
Contest: PRESIDENT

George W. Bush / Dick Cheney 40,780 Votes
John F. Kerry / John Edwards 19,803 Votes
David Cobb (Write-In) 1 Votes
Ralph Nader (Write-In) 16 Votes
Michael Badnarik / Richard Campagna 224 Votes
Walt Brown / Mary Alice Herbert (Write-In) 0 Votes

:D

[Ben E Lou]

OK. Here are three other real-life scenarios, both from my personal experience:

1. You're the coach of a high school football team that is completely dominant over its schedule, opening the season with wins of 46-0, 38-0, 70-0, 50-6, 47-7, 69-0, 58-0. It is a very small school, the smallest in its Region. The 46-0 non-region opener is the only game against a school that is smaller. Because of your strong talent, you've already decided that no one will play both ways until the playoffs. As a result of this decision, this team--with only 36 Varsity players--doesn't even HAVE a second string at some positions, and some of the starters have worked their butts off for four years, and only earned a starting spot this season because of your no-both-ways rule. You are a "merciful" coach, and have therefore taken to removing as many starters as you can before halftime. After all, the team has been up 35-0 or better by halftime in all but one game. However, several of the Senior first-year starters are upset--and rightfully so. They come to you and complain that they've worked their tail off for your for four years to be starters so they could play only a quarter and a half. Also, the eight or ten kids who are college prospects, and their parents, are even more frustrated with you. By sitting them so early every week, you're hurting their chances for a scholarship offer. What do you do????

2. (same high school as above) This same small high school is in even more of a quandary with regard to scheduling non-Region basketball games. In football, you only have to have one non-Region game when you play in a 10-team Region. However, in basketball, you can schedule 10-15, counting tournaments. One problem: you have a state-championship-contending Varsity, so the usual non-Region patsies your own size don't want to get embarrassed by playing you. Another problem: you're not deep at all. You have three Sophomores on the Varsity team, and your JV is therefore near the bottom of the barrell of the small schools. This is back in the days of every scheduled game being a full four-game slate. What do you do? Do you schedule much larger schools so that your Varsity players will have some good competitive games, knowing that you're sacrificing your JV to the wolves? Or, by agreeing to split the gate, do you convince schools your own size to come get slaughtered at your place, thereby shielding your own JV kids from getting beaten badly?



3. (different high school, same Region) You're the coach of an absolutely phenomenal girls' player, at a small school--again, in Georgia's smallest classification. She is--by far--the best player in any classification in the state. Heck, she's probably the best player in the nation. (She'd go on to become a three-time National Player of the Year in College.) Just about every night, against Class A competition, she puts your team up by 30-40 points by halftime. You know that she can get out of this dirt-poor wide spot in the road and go places. Do you hamper her development by pulling her at or before halftime in every game for four years, or do you let her play at least 3 quarters and allow her to continue to improve?

[gstelmack]

OK. Here are three other real-life scenarios, both from my personal experience:
2/3

(Sorry, had to be done)

[Ben E Lou]

2/3

(Sorry, had to be done)Heh. I started the post with only two, then I remembered the third. Changed the "two" to "three", but missed the "both." Whoops! http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[VPI97]

It sounds like the difference is in competitiveness. I know I enjoy a sport a lot more when I'm winning, than when I'm losing. Obviously that's not the whole thing, or even the main thing, but it's a factor. You would rather not play than play and lose? I just can't see that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

SD -- if scenario one isn't a single-season fluke, but rather a pattern of dominance, this you play up at least one classification. If it's a fluke, you play the kids enough to satisfy them w/out risking needless injury that would hamper your post-season & you let the score fall where it may.

In scenario two, you throw the JV to the wolves on occasion, find some laughers for the varsity on others. And look for out-of-state tournament play to provide more challenging scenarios for the varsity (without affecting the JV at all).

3) You play her, again, to the limits of what's risking foolish injury. And you also look for out-of-state opportunities to provide her with both more challenges AND more exposure.

[Desnudo]

You would rather not play than play and lose? I just can't see that.

Where in my post did I say that? However, would I rather not play or play and lose by some obscene score? Absolutely.

[gstelmack]

Heh. I started the post with only two, then I remembered the third. Changed the "two" to "three", but missed the "both." Whoops! http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif
Actually, I missed that. It was more a case of you asking 3 long complicated questions, and me pulling out the tried-and-true "2/3 is the answer to any FOFC puzzle" response.

[VPI97]

Where in my post did I say that? However, would I rather not play or play and lose by some obscene score? Absolutely. It sounded like you were making the argument that participating wasn't enough...your enjoyment came from winning. I certainly enjoyed winning, but I'd rather be on the field and lose 49-7 than not suit up at all.

[Ksyrup]

The very simple answer to this was to stop the game after the 1st inning. The winning coach should have at least made the offer to the other coach, quietly, in between innings. Once the administration had to get involved to stop the game, it had already gone too far and was obvious to everyone.

When you're talking about high school level and lower (and maybe even college in some circumstances), winning is supposed to be secondary to participation. Participation in competitive sports builds character, gives confidences, and yes, teaches life lessons. But getting the fuck whipped out of them by 50+ runs in 2 innings served none of the purposes for which the game was held. None of these kids signed up for public humiliation. They competed, tried hard, and came up way short. When that became obvious to everyone 20 or so runs into the 1st inning, the competition was over.

This was more about failure to use common sense than anything else. That's just bad judgment and lack of respect for the opposing team.

[Desnudo]

It sounded like you were making the argument that participating wasn't enough...your enjoyment came from winning. I certainly enjoyed winning, but I'd rather be on the field and lose 49-7 than not suit up at all.

I know I enjoy a sport a lot more when I'm winning, than when I'm losing. Obviously that's not the whole thing, or even the main thing, but it's a factor.

Like I said, it's not the whole thing, or even the main thing, but it's a factor in my enjoyment. Who doesn't enjoy winning more than losing?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Who doesn't enjoy winning more than losing?

Losers?

[Ben E Lou]

SD -- if scenario one isn't a single-season fluke, but rather a pattern of dominance, this you play up at least one classification. If it's a fluke, you play the kids enough to satisfy them w/out risking needless injury that would hamper your post-season & you let the score fall where it may.

In scenario two, you throw the JV to the wolves on occasion, find some laughers for the varsity on others. And look for out-of-state tournament play to provide more challenging scenarios for the varsity (without affecting the JV at all).

3) You play her, again, to the limits of what's risking foolish injury. And you also look for out-of-state opportunities to provide her with both more challenges AND more exposure.Scenario one was a two-season fluke. The planets aligned for a couple of years, and tiny Brookstone School in Columbus (my high school) had four D1 players and six or seven other smaller-division players on the field against Class A competition. This was the team that the Seahawks' Mack Strong starred on.

2. That's exactly what our coach did. That was my basketball team, in the '86-'87 season. We beat schools like Montgomery Academy and Montgomery Catholic by 30-50 points, but we also played home and homes with a couple of the big public schools in town, including Baker--the best AAAA school in Columbus at the time. We won at their place. They won at our place. Go figure. Our JV lost 89-11 at their place, and something like 75-15 at home.

3. You remember Miriam Walker Samuels? She played for Central of Talbotton in the mid 80's (Check out the "greatest player I ever saw" in this link: [HERE] (http://www.ajc.com/highschool/content/sports/highschool/0104/11replay.html) ). We had a very good girls' team my freshman year. They were Top 10 ranked, and lost to Central-Talbotton four times (twice regular season, in the sub-region championship, and region championship). Our girls were eliminated in the q-finals of state, I think. Central is in a dirt-poor town, and they didn't have a reputation for good girls' basketball, apart from Miriam, so for her first two years in high school, they just beat up on semi-local competition. I think they played in some big tourneys when she was a Jr and Sr, though. As Troutman says in the link above, it is really scary to think how good Miriam would have been had their been a three-point rule at the time. She was of average height for a girl--somewhere in the 5'4" to 5'6" range. However, she had ungodly quickness and deadly accuracy out to about 23 feet. One year they played in a Christmas Tournament that we hosted. 16 teams (8m, 8f), two courts, but the C-T guys and girls traveled together, so they had lots of dead time. She was challenging guys from other schools to go to the outdoor court and play her one-on-one--guys from other schools because, we found out later, none of the guys from her own school would play against her one-on-one in public. You definitely don't gain many cool points for losing 10-2 to a girl who is nearly a foot shorter than you. ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

You remember Miriam Walker Samuels?]

Wow, I hadn't thought of that name in ages.

[Ben E Lou]

Wow, I hadn't thought of that name in ages.When I was a freshman, my dad and older brothers were so impressed with her that we'd usually drive out to Talbotton (or Butler or Roberta or Greenville or Hogansville or wherever in the Region she was playing) to watch her play on nights when we were off. She was un-freakin-believable.

[VPI97]

Like I said, it's not the whole thing, or even the main thing, but it's a factor in my enjoyment. Who doesn't enjoy winning more than losing?
That goes without saying, but why would you want to punish the winning participants by limiting the way they can play the game or forcing them to bench players? You may call being on the winning side of a blow out boring, but there are a lot of people who would rather play than not play. No, they don't have to take extra bases on a passed ball, but telling them to stop at first base on a hit? If they can have fun by playing the game within reason, why should anyone stop them?

[Ksyrup]

Call the game after an inning, and play a scrimmage against yourself. You get a win that counts, and the fun of playing a full game without having to fake it. I don't get what's so hard about this.

[Desnudo]

That goes without saying, but why would you want to punish the winning participants by limiting the way they can play the game or forcing them to bench players? You may call being on the winning side of a blow out boring, but there are a lot of people who would rather play than not play. No, they don't have to take extra bases on a passed ball, but telling them to stop at first base on a hit? If they can have fun by playing the game within reason, why should anyone stop them?

Because it isn't fun? Like I said in a previous post, coaches call the game, teams scrimmage if they want to keep playing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Call the game after an inning, and play a scrimmage against yourself. You get a win that counts, and the fun of playing a full game without having to fake it. I don't get what's so hard about this.

Umm ... I believe that's called "practice".

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, so what? They've played 20 games so far, and only 4 of them have been 20-0 or worse. That means they played in 16 relatively competitive games (some more than others, obviously). If they're not willing to accept playing less than a full 5 inning game because they were beating the living shit out of the other team, then they don't know what sportsmanship is. Perhaps this is a good lesson for them. They'll get to play another competitive game next time, most likely.

[Desnudo]

The way I see it, it's a game. Forcing people to continue blowing out another team goes against the spirit of amateur athletics.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If they're not willing to accept playing less than a full 5 inning game because they were beating the living shit out of the other team...

Umm ... did I miss something somewhere? I'm not aware that option was offered to them.

edit to add: And, now that I think about it (and should have thought of it earlier), why on earth didn't the coach of the beaten team simply pull them off the field? THAT would have stopped the beating via forfeit. Failing to do so, now THAT I can see suspending someone for.

[Glengoyne]

Franklin's got it. In most men's sports, there's an unwritten rule about how to combat this. Brushbacks, hard slides, runner obstruction, etc will make the other coach back off to protect his players from his own idiocy.
One of my friends is a fanatical Fast Pitch Softball player, and two of his teammates, the shortstop and second baseman are both very talented(for softball). They are former minor league baseball players. These two clowns turn phantom double plays(read no runner at first) and stuff when they get ahead, just to rub it in. One team took matters into their own hands, and their second baseman drilled one of these clowns in the face with a throw "to first" when the guy was moving from first to second. My friend said the benches cleared, and most of his team backed the guy up eventhough they felt he deserved it.

[Buccaneer]

sportmanship, school spirit, community pride and teamwork
I side with Blacky on this (esp. since he knows more about this from local sources than from third-part shrill journalism). If you boys from Georgia think everything has to be about winning and losing, than I suggest you put your ruler away.

[Buccaneer]

Insecure??? You're the one who titled the thread "weenie" as if implying life is about competing in determining who is better than others. You obviously want to hear this so I'll say that you better than I am, as you are better than this coach. You win.

For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul?

[Buccaneer]

Hey, don't delete posts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I side with Blacky on this (esp. since he knows more about this from local sources than from third-part shrill journalism). If you boys from Georgia think everything has to be about winning and losing, than I suggest you put your ruler away.

I'm torn here, which opening to take?

Do I go with "I got your "boy" hanging".
OR
maybe "Dumbass, everything IS about winning and losing, whether you're smart enough to figure it out or not doesn't change that."

Better yet, to borrow from your triple-dola post, you might consider rethinking the whole "don't delete posts" thing. After all, you're currently on the record as agreeing with Blackie, and that's not really something you want to provide evidence of.

[Buccaneer]

Jon, I'd go with the former (boy hangin') since it's figuratively more appropriate. :)

[HomerJSimpson]

For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul?


Good one. If you "win" and lose family, friends, respect, etc, what have you "won?"

[Ksyrup]

Umm ... did I miss something somewhere? I'm not aware that option was offered to them.

My comment was based on how the players should have reacted if the game had been stopped after an inning, not what actually happened. You seem to think playing a full game regardless of the circumstances and humiliating the opponent is much more important than showing some class. Hell of a lesson to teach a bunch of kids.

[JonInMiddleGA]

My comment was based on how the players should have reacted if the game had been stopped after an inning, not what actually happened. You seem to think playing a full game regardless of the circumstances and humiliating the opponent is much more important than showing some class. Hell of a lesson to teach a bunch of kids.

You read me wrong in there somewhere Ks, I'd have no problem with stopping it early & I'd be surprised if the kids (in general circumstances) would have either. And that's infinitely better to me than anything that suggests they should go at quarter-speed or something of that sort. And that's right in line with my observation that the losing coach should have put a stop to this farce himself, but that's his responsibility, not the other team's AFAIC.

[Ragone]

What i don't get is.. why did that guy even bother sending his team out for the 2nd inning.. He could have forfeited the game...

I find it innane to tell players to "let up.. don't run out grounders.. don't advance on passed balls" might as well be telling them to let them win next..

I remember back in high school we was playing a really crummy local baseball team (winnetonka i believe.. for kcchief's amusement)

we was up 16-0 after 2.. i hadn't pitched more then 2 innings all season(left handed relievers in high school sports don't pitch much heh) Coach turns to me and says "Go out there, and see if you can hit their bats.. this is insane"

after 5 innings it was 36-0.. and we really wasn't trying at that point either, in the bottom half of the inning, i called time.. called the catcher out to the mound and told him to tell the last batter of the game what was coming.. hoping that he would at least hit the ball (they had 1 hit at that time) he didn't.. in fact he didn't even swing

[Buccaneer]

Sorry, was tired and cranky last night.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sorry, was tired and cranky last night.

I saw your airport thread, it's understandable.

[Sidhe]

Duelling principles:

1. Always excell at everything you do, take pride in your excellence; to do otherwise is to be less than your best.

2. Do not embarass someone who is weaker than you are because it does nothing to prove your strength, it only proves your character, or lack of it.

Problem: reconcile them.

For me it's pretty easy, but for very competitive people I understand how hard it is. I think focusing on how much it sucks to be on the winning side of a blowout is too narrow a focus. You've got to look outside yourself as well; not only how does it feel for the other team, but also, how do I look to others?

And the losing coach should have some of the blame as well. He could have called the game after the first inning. His stubborness exposed his kids to more embarassement.

[kcchief19]

To reiterate something I said yesterday, aside from Blacky NO ONE here knows any facts behind the story. We have no idea whether all of these assumptions, suppositions and analogies are accurate or apply.

As for SkyDog's examples, I don't know any of the facts of the case enough to know if any of those example apply, but I do know that leading a softball game 55-0 after two innings is akin to leading a football game 128-0 to nothing a halftime, so I don't think any of the able examples really apply to this particular extreme case.

But what really disappoints me is the "can't win, don't try" tenor to the discussion here. You're not very good and you get beat senseless by someone who is really good -- so you should just give up because it's hard and some is better than you. What kind of attitude is that? I hope some of you with kids don't teach your kids that.

For those of you who think the coach got a raw deal and shouldn't have been suspended despite being told not to run up the score like that (you know, following his boss' orders), I suggest you rent "The Karate Kid" this weekend and wait for the scene where the coach is yelling at the thug to "sweep the knee." In case you don't get it, you're the coach. If that's who you want to be, that's between you and your god. I realize it will get you a certain amount of material success in today's world, but it still makes you a jerk.

[Ben E Lou]

As for SkyDog's examples, I don't know any of the facts of the case enough to know if any of those example apply, but I do know that leading a softball game 55-0 after two innings is akin to leading a football game 128-0 to nothing a halftime, so I don't think any of the able examples really apply to this particular extreme case.My examples weren't supposed to have anything to do with this case. The discussion at that point was evolving into a generic discussion of competitiveness/running up the score at the high school level. Obviously 55-0 is excessive. No point in really discussing that. I was moving it into a generic discussion, but I now see that some people are so emotional about the original story that that probably wasn't possible.

But what really disappoints me is the "can't win, don't try" tenor to the discussion here. You're not very good and you get beat senseless by someone who is really good -- so you should just give up because it's hard and some is better than you. What kind of attitude is that? I hope some of you with kids don't teach your kids that.Agreed. Ridiculous. I always insisted that my dad and older brothers go 100% against me in all competitive endeavors. When I was 7 or 8, my dad could beat me by 250 points or so in Scrabble, but by the time I was 12 or 13 or so, I could beat virtually any adult I played, including being on an equal level with my dad. In sports, I can't tell you how many 15-1 and 15-2 losses I had to my brothers in basketball, but probably largely due what I learned during those beatings, I ended up being the best basketball player in the family.

For those of you who think the coach got a raw deal and shouldn't have been suspended despite being told not to run up the score like that (you know, following his boss' orders), I suggest you rent "The Karate Kid" this weekend and wait for the scene where the coach is yelling at the thug to "sweep the knee." In case you don't get it, you're the coach. If that's who you want to be, that's between you and your god. I realize it will get you a certain amount of material success in today's world, but it still makes you a jerk.As I said from the start, insubordination is an excellent reason for punishing the coach. "Breaking the unwritten rules", as this clown who wrote the article said, isn't.