Terri Schiavo - The Final Word

[Blackadar]

hxxp://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15/schiavo.autopsy.ap/index.html

Schiavo autopsy finds no sign of trauma
Wednesday, June 15, 2005 Posted: 11:33 AM EDT (1533 GMT)


LARGO, Florida (AP) -- Terri Schiavo did not suffer any trauma prior to her 1990 collapse and her brain was about half of normal size when she died, according to results released Wednesday of an autopsy conducted on the severely brain-damaged woman.

Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin concluded that there was no evidence of strangulation or other trauma leading to her collapse.

He also said she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack and there was no evidence that she was given harmful drugs or other substances prior to her death.

Autopsy results on the 41-year-old brain damaged woman were made public Wednesday, more than two months after Schiavo's death ended an internationally watched right-to-die battle that engulfed the courts, Congress and the White House and divided the country.

She died from dehydration, he said.

He said she would not have been able to eat or drink if she had been given food by mouth as her parents' requested.

"Removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed or hydrated by mouth or not," Thogmartin told reporters.

Thogmartin said that Schiavo's brain was about half of its expected size when she died March 31 in a Pinellas Park hospice, 13 days after her feeding tube was removed.

"The brain weighed 615 grams, roughly half of the expected weight of a human brain. ... This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."
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I guess some asshats on this board should apologize for their rumor-mongering about her being abused, strangled or drugged now.

[Ksyrup]

I guess some asshats on this board should apologize for their rumor-mongering about her being abused, strangled or drugged now.
Was this openly suggested/argued by her parents at any time? If so, I'd be satisfied with their apology. Who the hell cares about people around here?

[oliegirl]

I am glad it has ended the way it did and there is no sign that Michael abused her. I hope this brings her parents and family some closure and maybe just a little bit of peace that she is in a better place now. This was a horrible situation and there was no way for it to end well, but I think it ended as good as it could have.

[Flasch186]

Im sure the coroner MUST'VE been anti-Christian. How dare he!!! He is a liar!!! We should get a different coroner to do amn autopsy, perhaps one that wprks at a baptist hospital and is the reverend of a local church!!! Then we could trust him (if he gets us the results we want)!!! We will not quit until Terri's truth has come out!!!

enough, i have to go to JR's strip club in a few minutes..

[Arles]

I'm glad to see there was no abuse as well. But, to be fair to those on the board that wondered about it, there was really no way to know for sure until the autopsy. Still, I think this wraps up the situation as a horrible tragedy and should put a lot of the rumors/innuendo to bed.

[Critch]

You can't trust anything the medical community says. They eat fetuses.

[Draft Dodger]

I am glad it has ended the way it did and there is no sign that Michael abused her. I hope this brings her parents and family some closure and maybe just a little bit of peace that she is in a better place now. This was a horrible situation and there was no way for it to end well, but I think it ended as good as it could have.

I need to get away from the media.
I started reading this as a clever Michael Jackson joke.

[Blackadar]

You can't trust anything the medical community says. They eat fetuses.

Do they taste like chicken?

[stevew]

I thought the final word was "I wanna live!"

[Bubba Wheels]

Do they taste like chicken?

Why? Making plans?

[Blackadar]

Why? Making plans?

Yes, I hear they go quite nicely with fava beans and Chianti.


Oh, and how do you feel now after all of your bullshit rumors you posted regarding Michael Schivalo now turn out to be entirely unfounded and untrue? What kind of pathetic and feeble excuses will you make now regarding your anti-Christian behavior? What kind of justification do you use for character assassination and rumormongering?

[Raiders Army]

I thought the final word was "I wanna live!"
That's actually a phrase.

[ISiddiqui]

*Points at conservatives*

HAW HAW!

[JonInMiddleGA]

*Points at conservatives*

HAW HAW!

Sorry, but not all of us were on this bandwagon.

[duckman]

Im sure the coroner MUST'VE been anti-Christian. How dare he!!! He is a liar!!! We should get a different coroner to do amn autopsy, perhaps one that wprks at a baptist hospital and is the reverend of a local church!!! Then we could trust him (if he gets us the results we want)!!! We will not quit until Terri's truth has come out!!!

enough, i have to go to JR's strip club in a few minutes..
Speaking of asshats......

[Raiders Army]

Speaking of asshats......
Que?

[MJ4H]

I believe the implication there was that flasch was being an asshat in that post (which I tend to agree with).

[Joe Canadian]

This is why, in these cases I tend to believe all the "expert" doctors that spoke about her condition after looking at the facts... instead of listening to people who want to push a certian agenda.

[Raiders Army]

I thought it was Flasch was being sarcastic. *shrug*

[Bubba Wheels]

Yes, I hear they go quite nicely with fava beans and Chianti.


Oh, and how do you feel now after all of your bullshit rumors you posted regarding Michael Schivalo now turn out to be entirely unfounded and untrue? What kind of pathetic and feeble excuses will you make now regarding your anti-Christian behavior? What kind of justification do you use for character assassination and rumormongering?

Your no different that what you accuse me of, seeing just what you want to see and ignoring all else.

[Kodos]

Your no different that what you accuse me of, seeing just what you want to see and ignoring all else.

What factual evidence from a credible source is Blackadar ignoring?

[Blackadar]

Your no different that what you accuse me of, seeing just what you want to see and ignoring all else.

You're the one who posted the shit about abuse. About possible Michael Schivao strangling her or purposely drugging her. About her actually having an intact brain. Now that you've been proven wrong YET AGAIN, you still can't admit it.

No, we're not alike in any way beyond the fact we both are breathing. However, there's no difference between you and an Islamic suicide bomber except that no one has asked you to strap a bomb on your chest yet.

[Raiders Army]

However, there's no difference between you and an Islamic suicide bomber except that no one has asked you to strap a bomb on your chest yet.
Whoa. That was pretty harsh.

[Radii]

Whoa. That was pretty harsh.


For any other single person on this board I'd agree. When applying it to Bubba Wheels, I don't think its a harsh statement at all.

[Glengoyne]

*Points at conservatives*

HAW HAW!
Not only were we all not on this bandwagon...I think it was a distinct minority of "conservatives" who were siding wholly with the parents. In other words, I think there was a lot of room on that particular bandwagon.

[panerd]

Not only were we all not on this bandwagon...I think it was a distinct minority of "conservatives" who were siding wholly with the parents. In other words, I think there was a lot of room on that particular bandwagon.

Agree with this. I think every Republican I know thought it was a horrible idea for the government to intervine. (a small sample size, but kind of interesting) I think the administration lost a few points on this one.

[Radii]

This is why, in these cases I tend to believe all the "expert" doctors that spoke about her condition after looking at the facts... instead of listening to people who want to push a certian agenda.


This is what gets me about this case. While most of me just wants this story and her parents to go away forever, a part of me wants to get President Bush and Tom DeLay(the primary targets for my political anger in this case) up on a stage and ask them to defend their comments on "Activist Judges" and their precious "Culture of Life" and for taking such an absolutely irrational view in the face of numerous court decisions based on numerous doctors' findings and make them eat their fucking words.

While I'm at it, I'd like to ban the phrase "Activist Judges" from both sides of the political spectrum. It's the latest buzzword and its been pretty full of shit on both sides of the aisle most times I've heard it used.

[Radii]

Not only were we all not on this bandwagon...I think it was a distinct minority of "conservatives" who were siding wholly with the parents. In other words, I think there was a lot of room on that particular bandwagon.


Good post and an important thing to point out. I hope my previous post doesn't come accross as attacking all conservatives, as that's soemthing I very rarely do. Those that tried to make this a national issue though, are permanently on my shit list.

[Bubba Wheels]

For any other single person on this board I'd agree. When applying it to Bubba Wheels, I don't think its a harsh statement at all.

Who are you?

[Bubba Wheels]

This is what gets me about this case. While most of me just wants this story and her parents to go away forever, a part of me wants to get President Bush and Tom DeLay(the primary targets for my political anger in this case) up on a stage and ask them to defend their comments on "Activist Judges" and their precious "Culture of Life" and for taking such an absolutely irrational view in the face of numerous court decisions based on numerous doctors' findings and make them eat their fucking words.

While I'm at it, I'd like to ban the phrase "Activist Judges" from both sides of the political spectrum. It's the latest buzzword and its been pretty full of shit on both sides of the aisle most times I've heard it used.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You and your buddy Blackadar are in your very own way as extremist, spitefull and crazed at attacking President Bush and Tom Delay at any chance as you and your ilk accuse me of being when I happen to question something such as Shiavo's motivations for not wanting to allow Terri's parents to take over full responsibility for her after he himself had moved on away from her with his own life and new family. You be peas in the pod, and attacking me for your own biases is downright hilarious.

[Radii]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You and your buddy Blackadar are in your very own way as extremist, spitefull and crazed at attacking President Bush and Tom Delay at any chance as you and your ilk accuse me of being when I happen to question something such as Shiavo's motivations for not wanting to allow Terri's parents to take over full responsibility for her after he himself had moved on away from her with his own life and new family. You be peas in the pod, and attacking me for your own biases is downright hilarious.


a) I don't attack Bush and Delay at any chance. This is the first time I've ever commented on DeLay on this board at all I believe. I have attacked Bush when I've felt it justified and I've defended Bush when I've felt it to be justified. I'm more than willing to admit that I attack him more than I defend him but I listen to each policy and point that he makes and judge it individually, not because of any thing he has said previously.

b) I disagree with Blackadar a ton. Just not in this case.

c) My comments about you personally are absolutely out of line and out of character for me and mostly unrelated to this topic. My comments about you are based on my view of the long standing, consistant way you present yourself and your opinions on this board. Feel free to ignore me if I offend you :)

[sabotai]

I found it pretty telling of our society that some people thought Bush, DeLay, a "christian scientist" who "examined" here simply by watching her on a video, and a bunch of other people knew more about this case than the doctors that physically examined her for over a decade (however long it was).

It is even more telling that some of those people are actually surprised to find out that those doctors who physically examined her were right (and not at all surprising that the rest of them are in complete denial).

[SirFozzie]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You and your buddy Blackadar are in your very own way as extremist, spitefull and crazed at attacking President Bush and Tom Delay at any chance as you and your ilk accuse me of being when I happen to question something such as Shiavo's motivations for not wanting to allow Terri's parents to take over full responsibility for her after he himself had moved on away from her with his own life and new family. You be peas in the pod, and attacking me for your own biases is downright hilarious.

You be peas?

Bubba's trying for street cred..

since he has no cred otherwise

You were wrong, and you were proven wrong. Deal with it.

[duckman]

Your no different that what you accuse me of, seeing just what you want to see and ignoring all else.
It's YOU'RE!!!!!

If you're going to be a bigger asshat at least try to the use correct usage of the English language.

Sorry if I moved into QS's territory. It needed to be said. :D

[Bubba Wheels]

Well, pretty obvious the Bush-haters can't tell him how they really feel, so I guess I get to be the stand-in. Quite the honor!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well, pretty obvious the Bush-haters can't tell him how they really feel, so I guess I get to be the stand-in. Quite the honor!

Actually, BW, this one isn't just "Bush-haters".

I'd like to tell him he barked up the wrong tree on this one big-time too (not quite to the degree of his recent immigration comments, but in that neighborhood) so if you'll pass that along when you see him, I'd appreciate it.

Then again, he posts here a lot, so maybe he'll get the message.

[Bubba Wheels]

Actually, BW, this one isn't just "Bush-haters".

I'd like to tell him he barked up the wrong tree on this one big-time too (not quite to the degree of his recent immigration comments, but in that neighborhood) so if you'll pass that along when you see him, I'd appreciate it.

Then again, he posts here a lot, so maybe he'll get the message.

Jon, I understand that, what I'm saying is that the only explanation of the vehemence from the select few that deem it necessary to rail at me for being "Christian right" also view Bush as that way and hence unable to vent at him I become the 'stand-in.' And I do consider it an honor.

Politically, even though admittedly and humbly 'Christian right' I consider myself more of a Pat Buchanan Republican. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jon, I understand that, what I'm saying is that the only explanation of the vehemence from the select few that deem it necessary to rail at me for being "Christian right" also view Bush as that way and hence unable to vent at him I become the 'stand-in.' And I do consider it an honor.

Politically, though, even though admittedly and humbly 'Christian right' I consider myself more of a Pat Buchanan Republican. :)

Heh, I don't disagree with your assessment there too much (some but not a whole lot) but I don't get too many chances to disagree with you here so I figured I'd better take advantage of it ;)

[SirFozzie]

First you agree with me..

Then you disagree with Bubba..

Why Jon.. I think you're becoming a centrist!!!

(just teasin man ;))

[Flasch186]

Jon, I understand that, what I'm saying is that the only explanation of the vehemence from the select few that deem it necessary to rail at me for being "Christian right" also view Bush as that way and hence unable to vent at him I become the 'stand-in.' And I do consider it an honor.

Politically, even though admittedly and humbly 'Christian right' I consider myself more of a Pat Buchanan Republican. :)


actually i think it has MUCH more to do with rubbing it in, when someone is proven wrong. Which you just were. (Will you admit to being wrong or should we start going and pulling your posts out of that other thread?)

BTW I was obviously being sarcastic and probably an asshat at the same time. I certainly dont think that they're opposites and I can probably earn both at the same time.

[Fonzie]

You and your buddy Blackadar are in your very own way as extremist, spitefull and crazed at attacking President Bush and Tom Delay at any chance as you and your ilk accuse me of being when I happen to question something such as Shiavo's motivations for not wanting to allow Terri's parents to take over full responsibility for her after he himself had moved on away from her with his own life and new family.

75 words with only one comma and one period. That, my friends, is a textbook example of a run-on sentence.

[kcchief19]

First you agree with me..

Then you disagree with Bubba..

Why Jon.. I think you're becoming a centrist!!!

(just teasin man ;)) Something is really out of whack this week ... I've agreed with Jon several times recently. I'm concerrned that maybe I'm moving closer to him. :)

I don't think I've ever seen radii be that strong about anyone. That says more about Bubba than anything else.

I'll take Blackadar at his word about what BW. There's a reason he's on my ignore list. But based on the parts of the conversation I've seen so far, it doesn't seem like he's denying that he leveled what has now been demonstrated to be false charges in this case. Instead, his defense was "you're no better than me." Not much of a defense.

I think there are times that a lot of us get blinded by our ideology. One reason I think the most ridiculous political criticism is "flip flopping" is that smart people change their minds about issues when presented with new facts or new experiences. There was a lot of new information presented today, and if you're unable or unwilling to process that, there's nothing we can do to keep you from howling at the moon.

[SFL Cat]

Vegetable or not...allowing someone to starve-to-death for two weeks is barbaric. Animals that are put down get better treatment.

[ISiddiqui]

... because if someone suggested giving her lethal injection people wouldn't have a fit? It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Fonzie]

So...when does that final word arrive?

[MrBigglesworth]

Jon, I understand that, what I'm saying is that the only explanation of the vehemence from the select few that deem it necessary to rail at me for being "Christian right" also view Bush as that way and hence unable to vent at him I become the 'stand-in.' And I do consider it an honor.
I think what this thread is about is a release of the pent-up frustration inherent in arguing with someone that is basing his or her argument on fantasy. The Schiavo discussion could have been a very good debate on life and death issues, but instead it turned into baseless ad hominem attacks on the husband and completely insane diagnoses by doctors from watching a 2 minute videotape. Anyone that really thought about it could see through it for what it was: a cheap political stunt. So the frustration builds up, and then when everything is definitively revealed as B.S., the feeling is not only of 'I told you so', but also 'look at the lies you were fed and don't fall for them again!'

It's a red herring to try and deflect it into a 'you just hate Bush' argument.

[Glengoyne]

Vegetable or not...allowing someone to starve-to-death for two weeks is barbaric. Animals that are put down get better treatment.
The difference as I see it. An animal would know it was hungry. Not the case with a vegetable or Terri Schiavo, in this case.

[Raiders Army]

Vegetable or not...allowing someone to starve-to-death for two weeks is barbaric. Animals that are put down get better treatment.
She actually died of dehydration...and a vegetable feels nothing.

[JPhillips]

Bubba: I think you're selling yourself short. I don't see you as a standin for Bush, I see you as a standin for freedom and holiness. Everytime I disagree with you I'm really saying, "I hate freedom and religion." It may not come out that way in my posts, but rest assured that every time we disagree you are on the side of goodness and light and I am a poor schill for my dear friends Hitler and Satan.

[Arles]

First of all, I do not think that Michael did anything to cause Terri's condition, nor do I have a better alternative for Terri than what happened via the courts. But, I did run across this blog and figured I would post it as it does give another side to the report I hadn't seen mentioned yet:
Late last night, I took the time to read the 39-page autopsy report of Terri Schiavo--something which, it is clear to me, most of the callous gloaters on the other side of this debate have not bothered to do. And will never do. These are people who can only talk about the sanctity of life if it's enclosed in ghost quotes and pronounced with a sneer.

You do not need a medical examiner's license to see that the report raises many more questions than it answers, though from the (once again) misleading media coverage, we are led to believe that the matters of Terri's life and murder are resolved. They are not.

Here's a typical example from an article headlined, "No trauma before Schiavo collapse:"

An autopsy report on a brain-damaged woman at the centre of a long legal battle in the US has shown that she suffered no trauma before her collapse.

But on page 4 of the M.E.'s summary, what the report actually says with regard to possible strangulation is this:

Autopsy examination of her neck structures 15 years after her initial collapse did not detect any signs of remote trauma, but, with such a delay, the exam was unlikely to show any residual neck findings."

Michael Schiavo and his supporters and doctors have long maintained that Terri suffered from an eating disorder. In interviews with Larry King, in countless newspaper articles over the past 15 years, and during his successful malpractice trial against Terri's primary care physician, Michael Schiavo stressed his wife's bulimia-related low potassium level as the cause of her initial collapse. Schiavo won $1 million in damages on the grounds that Schiavo's obstetrician had failed to diagnose bulimia.

Unquestioning journalists ran dozens of stories echoing the claim: "Eating disorder is real issue in Schiavo case," "Terri's life a lesson in dangers of bulimia," "The lost lesson of Schiavo case: the dangers of eating disorders," etc.

The autopsy report spend three-and-a-half pages debunking Schiavo's claim, as well as the related claim that she had a heart attack (or, more medically precise, myocardial infarction). But if mentioned at all, the news reports I have seen have downplayed and buried these astonishing revelations (revelations which bear directly on Schiavo's credibility regarding his claim that Terri would have wanted to die).

In Michael Schiavo's favor, the autopsy report also casts doubt on the Schindler family's long-held view that a 1991 bone scan indicated traumatic injury. The report notes that Terri had severe osteoporosis and that the bone scan findings might have also reflected "the aftermath of remote intense CPR, infection, bone turnover, artifact or intense physical therapy. In summary, any rib fractures, leg fractures, skull fractures or spine fractures that occurred concurrent with Mrs. Schiavo's original collapse would almost certainly ahve been diagnosed in February 1990 especially with the number of phsyical exams, radiographs, and other evaluations she received in the early evolution of her care..."

However, the report notes this caveat: "Without the orginal bone scan and radiographs from that period, no other conclusions can [be] reasonably made."

With regard to Terri's alleged persistent vegetative state, most news articles inaccurately portray the report as supporting that diagnosis. But the disability rights group Not Dead Yet has it right:

[C]ontrary to articles stating the autopsy report "supported" the diagnosis of "persistent vegetative state (PVS)," a neuropathology expert today was careful to say that PVS is a clinical diagnosis rather than a pathological one. He added that nothing in the autopsy was "inconsistent" with a PVS diagnosis.

The real elephant in the living room, of course, is whether or not we can really know how conscious anyone labeled "PVS" really is. Several studies have revealed high misdiagnosis rates, with conscious people being mistakenly regarded as totally and irrevocably unaware.

The autopsy also documented significant brain atrophy, and the medical panel called the damage "irreversible."

This is not the same as saying she had no cognitive ability.

"It's always seemed to us that PVS isn't really a diagnosis; it's a value judgment masquerading as a diagnosis," said Stephen Drake, research analyst for Not Dead Yet, a national disability rights group that filed three amicus briefs in the case. "When it comes to the hard science, no qualified pathologist went on the record saying she couldn't think or couldn't experience her own death through dehydration."

Diane Coleman, president and founder of Not Dead Yet, agreed. "The core issues remain the same. Protection of the life and dignity of people under guardianship, and a high standard of proof in removing food and water from a person who can not express their own wishes. These are issues of great concern to the disability community - evidenced by the 26 national disability groups that spoke out in favor of saving Terri Schiavo's life over the past few years."

It is not clear to me from the neuropathology report when and over what period the much-talked-about brain shrinkage occurred. I have also noticed that some are already mocking the claim that Terri recognized visitors (note that the report also does not appear to indicate when and over what period that loss of sight occurred).

For God's sake.

Terri Schiavo, a profoundly disabled woman who was not terminally ill and who had an army of family members ready to care for her for the rest of her natural life, succumbed to forced dehydration at the hands of her spouse-in-name-only.

This is something to gloat about?

***

Good blog analysis at Patterico, Captain's Quarters, and The Anchoress.

***

Finally, here's the last paragraph of the medical examiner's report:

It is the policy of this office that no case is ever closed and that all determinations are to be reconsidered upon receipt of credible, new information. In addition to fading memories, the 15-year survival of Mrs. Schiavo after her collapse resulted in the creation of a voluminous number of documents many of which were lost or discarded over the years. Receipt of additional information that clarifies outstanding issues may or shall cause an amendment of her cause and manner of death.

In other words, the medical examiner has pledged to keep something rare in this still unresolved tragedy: an open mind.

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/002756.htm

[Blackadar]

Other side? I don't see any information above that would suggest anything other than what the Doctors and Michael said in the first place.

It's like the author is saying "it doesn't entirely disprove any abuse because the human body can heal". Big whoop-t-do. And then it goes on to attack the premise of PVS, which is entirely another matter. And then who does the author find to quote? A group called "not dead yet" - it would have been hard to find a more biased source.

[jeff061]

Michael Shiavo also has sex with animals and eats babies. The autopsies don't disprove it!!

[RendeR]

While the blog is interesting, it certainly does nothing more than put this persons view right up next to everyone elses. Sure, they read the report, but with every sentence I get no more sense of open-mindedness from this than I do anyone else's arguements.

THey play on the fact that they read the report, then use it to promote their own opinion of the evidence anyway.

The woman is dead, I hope that people everywhere can just let her husband and her family be. They've all been through enough.

[judicial clerk]

couple of random thoughts:

I admire how resilient BubbaWheels is. He gets attacked more often than any other member on this board, but he just brushes it off and keeps on truckin'. Now, I routinely disagree with BW's political or philosophical ideas, but I appreciate that he is able to withstand a level of vitriol that would have many other members reaching for the eject button;

Terry Schaivo's case shouldn't lead to a national discourse on whether her husband throttled her or not, it should lead to a national discourse on the dangers of eating disorders;

How does RA know that vegetables don't feel pain?! I think he might be an anti-vegite. I myself am a level 7 vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

[jeff061]

That's because Bubba is doing God's work and Saving all of us. No really.

[Arles]

Other side? I don't see any information above that would suggest anything other than what the Doctors and Michael said in the first place.
I agree, but it also adds some context to the media refrain that it "proves" Terri wasn't strangled by stating:

Autopsy examination of her neck structures 15 years after her initial collapse did not detect any signs of remote trauma, but, with such a delay, the exam was unlikely to show any residual neck findings.
All that said, it didn't change my opinion on the issue. I was just surprised to see the caveat in the report on the neck injury as no media story I had read mentioned it.

[Flasch186]

Arles punched me in my thigh!!!

WHEN?

15 years ago!!!

Well I dont see a bruise?

PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!! PROVE IT!!! ARLES IS A FLASCHEN BEATER!!!!





J/K

[MrBigglesworth]

Shorter Michelle "I'm glad my people were in internment camps during WWII" Malkin: I have no experience in reading medical reports, the report gives no indication that any of the strangulation or recognition that I flogged a couple months ago was present, but it's clearly possible that all the Dr's that examined her were wrong and all that stuff to her brain happened post-mortem.

Spare me Michelle Malkin.

[Arles]

Arles punched me in my thigh!!!

WHEN?

15 years ago!!!

Well I dont see a bruise?

PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!! PROVE IT!!! ARLES IS A FLASCHEN BEATER!!!!

I appreciate the humor but also the irony as well. Your argument is exactly what Blackadar and company have been saying when the autopsy came out:

"See, the coroner said she didn't have any bruises on her throat or visible damage from 15 years ago so that proves Michael is innocent"

I frankly think he's innocent already, but citing the fact that she didn't show any injuries at her death from an incident that occured over a decade ago certainly wouldn't have swayed my opinion had I originally felt the other way.

[MrBigglesworth]

I appreciate the humor but also the irony as well. Your argument is exactly what Blackadar and company have been saying when the autopsy came out:

"See, the coroner said she didn't have any bruises on her throat or visible damage from 15 years ago so that proves Michael is innocent"

I frankly think he's innocent already, but citing the fact that she didn't show any injuries at her death from an incident that occured over a decade ago certainly wouldn't have swayed my opinion had I originally felt the other way.
I just skimmed through the medical report because I was sure Michelle Malkin was full of S. On page 4 of the summary findings is the quote:
d. Was she strangled?
No trauma was noted on any of the numerous physical exams or radiographs performed on Mrs. Schiavo on the day of, in the days after, or in the months after her initial collapse. Indeed, within an hour of her initial hospital admission, radiographic examination of her cervical spine was negative. Specifically, external signs of strangulation including cutaneous or deep neck injury, facial/conjunctival petechiae, and other blunt trauma were not observed or recorded during her initial hospital admission.

Autopsty examination of her neck structures 15 years after her initial collapse did not detect any signs of remote trauma, but, with such a delay, the exam was unlikely to show any residual neck findings. Even bony anomolies would have likely resolved.
What did Michelle "I'm glad my people were interned during WWII" Malkin quote? Just that second paragraph. She is a GOP stooge on the level of Coulter, never trust anything that comes out of her.

[Raiders Army]

For this thread to be titled "The Final Word" it surprisingly has legs.

[Flasch186]

I appreciate the humor but also the irony as well. Your argument is exactly what Blackadar and company have been saying when the autopsy came out:

"See, the coroner said she didn't have any bruises on her throat or visible damage from 15 years ago so that proves Michael is innocent"

I frankly think he's innocent already, but citing the fact that she didn't show any injuries at her death from an incident that occured over a decade ago certainly wouldn't have swayed my opinion had I originally felt the other way.

theyre both garbage..both ways.

[Bubba Wheels]

Well, couple of facts that conviently get ignored by my critics: 1. Terri Shiavo's brother and sister (on TV last night, one of the talking-head shows) are the ones that have inferred Michael may have some responsibility for Terri's condition because

a) He was the last one to be with her and was with her when she suffered her brain-damage

b) According to them Michael has never answered detailed questions about what occurred

c) Terri was never bulemic which Michael has stated (according to them) could be the direct cause of the injurey

d) Noone disputes the fact that it was only after winning the money in the lawsuit that Michael 'suddenly' remembered the Terri claimed she would not want to live...ect.

e) According to one expert last night on Scarborough Country Terri's condition was never re-examined with modern high-tech equipment since 2002.

f) It is truly amazing how many 'experts' in this post think that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Terri did and and could not feel pain on any level.

g) Terri was killed by dehydration when her tube was removed, she was physically healthy and medical experts stated that she could easily live another 10years or more without using 'extrodinary care' to help her.

h) What is at stake in all this is allowing the 'culture of death' to determine amongst themselves even without credible evidence from the patient(s) themselves to determine when a person becomes 'disposable' because they are uncomfortable in seeing that person(s) live in a way they think they themselves would not want to.

[Raiders Army]

Bubba, please....let it go. She's D-E-A-D.

(Hey! Hopefully I got the last word!)

[Bubba Wheels]

Bubba, please....let it go. She's D-E-A-D.

(Hey! Hopefully I got the last word!)

Well, the obvious answer to this one is...if you don't like the subject read elsewheres.

[Raiders Army]

Just won't let someone get the last word, eh? I'll fix you!

if you don't like the subject read elsewhere.

[Flasch186]

its not about what anyone wanted outside of Terri. The sooner you undertsand that the better off you'll be.

[Bubba Wheels]

its not about what anyone wanted outside of Terri. The sooner you undertsand that the better off you'll be.

I'm sorry, but this could possibly be the lamest comment I've ever read on this forum insomuch as what Terri really wanted is precisely the thing that cannot reliably be proven.

And then you say 'According to the law her husband can decide for her" and then I say "Yes, but her husband's behavior and recollections of Terri's wishes are inconsistent with what a normal husband/wife relationship would seem to be..." and off we go again. What was your point?

[MrBigglesworth]

Well, couple of facts that conviently get ignored by my critics:
I think you play a little loose with the term 'fact'.

[Klinglerware]

Where is GroundCat when we need him?

I may need to cowboy up if I want to last through another Schiavo thread...

[MrBigglesworth]

I'm sorry, but this could possibly be the lamest comment I've ever read on this forum insomuch as what Terri really wanted is precisely the thing that cannot reliably be proven.
Didn't a court of law come to the conclusion that Terri did not want to live in the state she was in? What makes you more qualified than a court to come to that determination?

[Fonzie]

Well, couple of facts that conviently get ignored by my critics: 1. Terri Shiavo's brother and sister (on TV last night, one of the talking-head shows) are the ones that have inferred Michael may have some responsibility for Terri's condition because ...



It's implied, not inferred.

[Bubba Wheels]

I think you play a little loose with the term 'fact'.

What part was not a 'fact"? Unless you can disprove any of it, Terri's brother and sister are telling the truth.

[Raiders Army]

What part was not a 'fact"? Unless you can disprove any of it, Terri's brother and sister are being called liars?
Just saying you can't disprove it doesn't make it a fact. Can they back up their claims? If they can, then I would call them facts.

[Bubba Wheels]

It's implied, not inferred.

It was S t a t e d. How's about that one? ;)

[JPhillips]

Bubba its things like this:

b) According to them Michael has never answered detailed questions about what occurred

c) Terri was never bulemic which Michael has stated (according to them) could be the direct cause of the injurey

e) According to one expert last night on Scarborough Country Terri's condition was never re-examined with modern high-tech equipment since 2000.

she was physically healthy and medical experts stated that she could easily live another 10years or more without using 'extrodinary care' to help her.


But I hate freemdom and holiness, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Bubba Wheels]

Just saying you can't disprove it doesn't make it a fact. Can they back up their claims? If they can, then I would call them facts.

Well, one fact is evident: I am not the source for questioning Michael's motives in wanting Terri dead, as opposed to what Blackadar has posted earlier.

[Bubba Wheels]

Bubba its things like this:










But I hate freemdom and holiness, so maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah, the 'conclusive facts' being used to try and make this all go away are being questioned themselves. What's your point? We can question the government's findings on JFK, 9-11, Iraq, ect..., but when it comes to Terri Shiavo they cannot possibly be wrong? Good logic.

[Flasch186]

the court decided it, im not a judge, so Im going to deferr to him/her that he followed the laws and made a decision that he felt was correct. So there it is, The judge decided it, Michael acted within his rigths, never has any evidence been shownt hat he hurt her in any way or caused this and he had proven that what has happened is Terri's wishes.

[Flasch186]

Yeah, the 'conclusive facts' being used to try and make this all go away are being questioned themselves. What's your point? We can question the government's findings on JFK, 9-11, Iraq, ect..., but when it comes to Terri Shiavo they cannot possibly be wrong? Good logic.

you know, you could possibly be wrong too.

[JPhillips]

When you use "according to one person" that by definition makes it less than fact.

[Bubba Wheels]

When you use "according to one person" that by definition makes it less than fact.

No, the 'fact' is that these are still very legitimate questions being raised by a variety of people in various places beginning with Terri Shiavo's own family. In terms of the 'facts' of her medical condition, there are plenty of experts on both sides.

[MrBigglesworth]

Unless you can disprove any of it, Terri's brother and sister are telling the truth.
I'm not going to insult logic by bothering to refute that.

[Flasch186]

No, the 'fact' is that these are still very legitimate questions being raised by a variety of people in various places beginning with Terri Shiavo's own family. In terms of the 'facts' of her medical condition, there are plenty of experts on both sides.


Ill take the expert who doesn't care about sides, we have that now. RIP

[Bubba Wheels]

you know, you could possibly be wrong too.

You do raise one good point to all this: Seems those siding with Terri Shiavo's family are raising all the questions. Those siding with Michael already seem to have all the answers. Goes to the 'open mind" thing.

[MrBigglesworth]

In terms of the 'facts' of her medical condition, there are plenty of experts on both sides.
Just like there are plenty of experts on both sides of the evolution/ID debate: nearly every credible scientist in the world on one side, and James Dobson and others that haven't taken biology since high school on the other. With Terri we have every court that has ever heard her case, the autopsy report, her husband, and most if not all of the doctors that had physically examined her, vs. Terri's family. It's a legitimate argument, I just have no idea which side is more credible.

[Blackadar]

Well, one fact is evident: I am not the source for questioning Michael's motives in wanting Terri dead, as opposed to what Blackadar has posted earlier.

No, but you are the friggin' moron who posts these unfounded rumors and speculations and then you treat them as facts in saying that the husband was abusive with blatent disregard to the overwhelming majority of evidence to the contrary. In other words, you supported and encouraged the character assassination and lies by posting them and defending those posts.

As for this bullshit:


a) He was the last one to be with her and was with her when she suffered her brain-damage

So what? Jackie was the last person with JFK. Did she kill him?



b) According to them Michael has never answered detailed questions about what occurred

According to them...next question.


c) Terri was never bulemic which Michael has stated (according to them) could be the direct cause of the injurey

According to them...next question.


d) Noone disputes the fact that it was only after winning the money in the lawsuit that Michael 'suddenly' remembered the Terri claimed she would not want to live...ect.

Wrong. Please get your facts straight. He said it before the trial. In addition, he waited 4-5 years after the verdict before petitioning the court for removal of the tube. That could hardly be called suddenly. Thank you for playing, please come again.


e) According to one expert last night on Scarborough Country Terri's condition was never re-examined with modern high-tech equipment since 2002.

According to one person...next question.


f) It is truly amazing how many 'experts' in this post think that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Terri did and and could not feel pain on any level.

Just using the best medical science available, which stated that the part of the brain that feels "pain" is no longer there. At least we use science. Y


g) Terri was killed by dehydration when her tube was removed, she was physically healthy and medical experts stated that she could easily live another 10years or more without using 'extrodinary care' to help her.

That's not material to the case.

Thank you for playing, please come again!

[duckman]

If God loves me, He would inspire Ben to ban this buffoon.

[Bubba Wheels]

Just like there are plenty of experts on both sides of the evolution/ID debate: nearly every credible scientist in the world on one side, and James Dobson and others that haven't taken biology since high school on the other. With Terri we have every court that has ever heard her case, the autopsy report, her husband, and most if not all of the doctors that had physically examined her, vs. Terri's family. It's a legitimate argument, I just have no idea which side is more credible.

Well, not to rehash the whole evolution thread from earlier days, but if one thing was brought out in that discussion it is that the very definition of evolution had been changed somewhere between Darwin and today. And it is still called a 'theory', or did you hear different?

[Bubba Wheels]

If God loves me, He would inspire Ben to ban this buffoon.

Censorship cures everything in your world doesn't it? :rolleyes:

[Bubba Wheels]

Blackadar, you lie on one point you totally shoot your credibility altogether. I never ever ever stated as fact that Michael was abusive physically or otherwise. Just stated that, because of Terri's condition (didn't happen by itself, did it?) and Michael was with her when if occurred that in itself raised questions. JFK and Jackie? Only a few million witnesses to that one.

[duckman]

Censorship cures everything in your world doesn't it? :rolleyes:
No, punching people do.

[Blackadar]

Blackadar, you lie on one point you totally shoot your credibility altogether. I never ever ever stated as fact that Michael was abusive physically or otherwise. Just stated that, because of Terri's condition (didn't happen by itself, did it?) and Michael was with her when if occurred that in itself raised questions. JFK and Jackie? Only a few million witnesses to that one.

If I prove otherwise, will you leave this board and never come back? Swear to Jesus?

[Bubba Wheels]

No, punching people do.

Wha...is that a threat? As I sit here and laugh, look up kccheif, he claims he found the ignore switch and maybe you can talk him into teaching you now to use it. Before you start book burning or something.

[JPhillips]

Ah yes, medical opinion does vary doesn't it.

Frist on Senate Floor, 3/17/05:

I have looked at the video footage. Based on the footage provided to me, which was part of the facts of the case, she does respond.

More from Frist, 3/17/05:

She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli…

[Bubba Wheels]

If I prove otherwise, will you leave this board and never come back? Swear to Jesus?

Well, it will prove that your not a liar.

[MrBigglesworth]

Well, not to rehash the whole evolution thread from earlier days, but if one thing was brought out in that discussion it is that the very definition of evolution had been changed somewhere between Darwin and today. And it is still called a 'theory', or did you hear different?
Are you seriously insinuating that science learns new stuff all the time? That they adjust their theories based on new knowledge? That's a low blow, Bubba. Next thing you will be telling me is that Newton's laws of physics have been shown to be inaccurate!

[Bubba Wheels]

Ah yes, medical opinion does vary doesn't it.

Yes, this is another good one. Someone claimed here that Terri's eyes were too damaged to see anything, yet whenever someone in the room with her moved their hand her eyes seemed to follow the movements. ESP?

[Klinglerware]

You do raise one good point to all this: Seems those siding with Terri Shiavo's family are raising all the questions. Those siding with Michael already seem to have all the answers. Goes to the 'open mind" thing.

I thought that Michael and Terri were part of the same family. According to the latest Republican policy on what constitutes a marriage: one man and one woman with the decision making authority. Nothing about extended family in there... So much for the importance of the nuclear family.

Maybe Terri Schiavo's last wish was for her "defenders" to at least spell her name right.

[Bubba Wheels]

Are you seriously insinuating that science learns new stuff all the time? That they adjust their theories based on new knowledge? That's a low blow, Bubba. Next thing you will be telling me is that Newton's laws of physics have been shown to be inaccurate!

So, science evolves, but we knew enough about Terri Shiavo's medical condition that we were sure she did not want to live anymore. Interesting.

[digamma]

Yes, this is another good one. Someone claimed here that Terri's eyes were too damaged to see anything, yet whenever someone in the room with her moved their hand her eyes seemed to follow the movements. ESP?
You were in the room with her? Fascinating.

[JPhillips]

Bubba: Thanks for throwing me that fat pitch!

Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin concluded that...her brain was about half of normal size when she died. ...
Thogmartin says her brain was "profoundly atrophied" - and that the damage was "irreversable." He also says, "The vision centers of her brain were dead" - meaning she was blind.

[Bubba Wheels]

I thought that Michael and Terri were part of the same family. According to the latest Republican policy on what constitutes a marriage: one man and one woman with the decision making authority. Nothing about extended family in there... So much for the importance of the nuclear family.

Maybe Terri Schiavo's last wish was for her "defenders" to at least spell her name right.

Again, covered before and on it goes. Anyone 'married' to someone else does not usually take up living with another woman and starting a new family without first divorcing the first wife.

[John Galt]

Again, covered before and on it goes. Anyone 'married' to someone else does not usually take up living with another woman and starting a new family without first divorcing the first wife.

And inbreeding is usually frowned upon as well, but . . .







Damn it . . . I apologized for that joke. Oh well, I can't help it.

[Bubba Wheels]

You were in the room with her? Fascinating.

Little invention called TV. Get one, the price keeps coming down at Best Buy. :rolleyes:

[JPhillips]

I saw an alien get an autopsy on TV.

[Bubba Wheels]

And inbreeding is usually frowned upon as well, but . . .







Damn it . . . I apologized for that joke. Oh well, I can't help it.

You should get sent to the Penalty box, if for only overusing that inbreeding joke. Probably not the only stereotype you use.

[MrBigglesworth]

So, science evolves, but we knew enough about Terri Shiavo's medical condition that we were sure she did not want to live anymore. Interesting.
What? Science didn't tell us she wanted to die if she were in that state, the courts did when they found there to be credible evidence. I ask again, what makes you better suited than the court to make a determination here?

[duckman]

Wha...is that a threat? As I sit here and laugh, look up kccheif, he claims he found the ignore switch and maybe you can talk him into teaching you now to use it. Before you start book burning or something.
Yeah, a person with an injured neck made a threat at you. :rolleyes:

I got a good idea. I'll learn to use the ignore feature after you take some grammar lessons. Deal?

[Bubba Wheels]

I saw an alien get an autopsy on TV.

So now your saying that Terri's eye movements on TV were faked? Amazing! How did they do that one?

[Klinglerware]

I saw an alien get an autopsy on TV.

Yeah, they even had to blur out their naughty parts, so it must have been real!

[MrBigglesworth]

Yes, this is another good one. Someone claimed here that Terri's eyes were too damaged to see anything, yet whenever someone in the room with her moved their hand her eyes seemed to follow the movements. ESP?
Are you really trying to argue that she could see without a visual cortex? Or what exactly are you trying to say here?

[John Galt]

You should get sent to the Penalty box, if for only overusing that inbreeding joke. Probably not the only stereotype you use.

I guess I prefer to think that your parents/cousins/siblings were good people, so I'd hate to blame their parenting skills for you. To me, nature, not nuture, seemed like the kindest explanation.

[Bubba Wheels]

What? Science didn't tell us she wanted to die if she were in that state, the courts did when they found there to be credible evidence. I ask again, what makes you better suited than the court to make a determination here?

Simple enough. Its not up to the government to decide who to kill by starving them to death. Just not their job.

[JPhillips]

I'm saying her eyes may have moved a few times over hours of tape(that was edited to only show the moments most favorable to the family) but that eye movement does not equal vision.

You apparently are arguing that you don't need a visual cortex to see.

I bet I win.

[John Galt]

Are you really trying to argue that she could see without a visual cortex? Or what exactly are you trying to say here?

The necessity of a visual cortex is only a THEORY. How do you know she couldn't see without it? Did they even bother to use new scientific equipment to see through her eyes? Were you inside her head? How do you know she couldn't see?

[JPhillips]

Its not up to the government to decide who to kill by starving them to death. Just not their job.

What government agency did this?

[Bubba Wheels]

Are you really trying to argue that she could see without a visual cortex? Or what exactly are you trying to say here?

Could be her eyes were reacting to audio stimuli, like a blind person would do.
Would still show reaction.

[cartman]

Again, covered before and on it goes. Anyone 'married' to someone else does not usually take up living with another woman and starting a new family without first divorcing the first wife.

As was said before, and it is in court transcripts, her parents actually encouraged him to start dating again, during the time he was living with them after her accident.

Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong, but it does give the appearance that he didn't take up with the other woman to spite the family, if they were the ones encouraging him to date again.

[John Galt]

Simple enough. Its not up to the government to decide who to kill by starving them to death. Just not their job.

I curious if you are actually making an argument here (or continuing your normal duck-and-troll strategy). Is it the government's job to decide who gets the feeding tubes then? If there is a disagreement about whether to insert a feeding tube, who decides if not the government? What if more than a feeding tube (say $10 billion a year worth of equipment) is required?

[Bubba Wheels]

What government agency did this?

Court system? Or have they become different than the government? Agency is your word.

[JPhillips]

The court made no such decision. All they did was say that the law mandated that the decision be made by the husband.

[MrBigglesworth]

Simple enough. Its not up to the government to decide who to kill by starving them to death. Just not their job.
Who's job is it then, yours? The most obvious answer is the person in question (who the courts decided wanted to die), the next most obvious is the husband (who wanted her to be put out of her misery). So how did things not work out here?

[digamma]

The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.

'Round and 'round.

'Round and 'round.

[Bubba Wheels]

I curious if you are actually making an argument here (or continuing your normal duck-and-troll strategy). Is it the government's job to decide who gets the feeding tubes then? If there is a disagreement about whether to insert a feeding tube, who decides if not the government? What if more than a feeding tube (say $10 billion a year worth of equipment) is required?

No, Duck is the other guy, Troll is usually what its called when you make constant 'inbreeding' jokes (implies stereotyping).

[JPhillips]

Bubba also implies stereotypes.

[MrBigglesworth]

Could be her eyes were reacting to audio stimuli, like a blind person would do.
Would still show reaction.
So what are you trying to argue in saying that she has reflexes? I don't think anyone has ever argued that she doesn't have reflexes, as they are not controlled by the brain.

[cartman]

Court system? Or have they become different than the government? Agency is your word.

As I stated in the original thread, the scenario was a combination of all three branches of government:

Legislative:

Passed a law stating that the closest legal relative/guardian can make medical decisions for parties that cannot make the decision for themselves.

Executive:

Governor signed said law, putting it on the books

Judicial:

Reviewed the situation as it applied to the law, and decided that the husband had the legal right to make his decision, as it met the legal requirements of the passed law.

[Bubba Wheels]

The argument has become circular. And the really witty people have already left. So I go now before John Galt tries to be funny again.

[John Galt]

No, Duck is the other guy, Troll is usually what its called when you make constant 'inbreeding' jokes (implies stereotyping).

So, it is the duck-and-troll strategy. Oh well.

As for my stereotyping, I'm guilty (as I think all people are) of doing it. However, I don't think I'm stereotyping in this case - I believe you could very well be the product of inbreeding because of your posting on this board, not because of your place of origin or other factors (although I admit the name Bubba does give me a little bit of prejudice).

[Coffee Warlord]

The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.

'Round and 'round.

'Round and 'round.

The wheels on the bus go round and round...

[MrBigglesworth]

As I stated in the original thread, the scenario was a combination of all three branches of government:

Legislative:

Passed a law stating that the closest legal relative/guardian can make medical decisions for parties that cannot make the decision for themselves.

Executive:

Governor signed said law, putting it on the books

Judicial:

Reviewed the situation as it applied to the law, and decided that the husband had the legal right to make his decision, as it met the legal requirements of the passed law.
It's obvious that legally speaking the husband was in the right. But is Bubba trying to argue that the law should change? If so, what is it that the law should be, Bubba, in your eyes?

[John Galt]

The argument has become circular. And the really witty people have already left. So I go now before John Galt tries to be funny again.

Damn it. Bubba actually got me for once. Foiled by an inbreed troll - I don't think it gets any lower. :(

[Klinglerware]

Simple enough. Its not up to the government to decide who to kill by starving them to death. Just not their job.

Not according to George Bush:

Well, it's a good thing for Republicans that Terri Schiavo isn't from TEXAS.


-----
George W. Bush signed a law in Texas that expressly gave hospitals the right to remove life support if the patient could not pay and there was no hope of revival, regardless of the patient's family's wishes. It is called the Texas Futile Care Law. Under this law, a baby was removed from life support against his mother's wishes in Texas just this week. A 68 year old man was given a temporary reprieve by the Texas courts just yesterday.

-----

Baby born with fatal defect dies after removal from life support
By LEIGH HOPPER
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

The baby wore a cute blue outfit with a teddy bear covering his bottom. The 17-pound, 6-month-old boy wiggled with eyes open and smacked his lips, according to his mother.

Then at 2 p.m. today, a medical staffer at Texas Children's Hospital gently removed the breathing tube that had kept Sun Hudson alive since his Sept. 25 birth. Cradled by his mother, he took a few breaths, and died.

"I talked to him, I told him that I loved him. Inside of me, my son is still alive," Wanda Hudson told reporters afterward. "This hospital was considered a miracle hospital. When it came to my son, they gave up in six months .... They made a terrible mistake."

Sun's death marks the first time a hospital has been allowed by a U.S. judge to discontinue an infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to bioethical experts. A similar case involving a 68-year-old man in a chronic vegetative state at another Houston hospital is before a court now.

"This isn't murder. It's mercy and it's appropriate to be merciful in that way. It's not killing, it's stopping pointless treatment," said William Winslade, a bioethicist and lawyer who is a professor at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. "It's sad this (Sun Hudson case) dragged on for so long. It's always sad when an infant dies. We all feel it's unfair, that a child doesn't have a chance to develop and thrive."

The hospital's description of Sun — that he was motionless and sedated for comfort — has differed sharply from the mother's. Since February, the hospital has blocked the media from accepting Hudson's invitation to see the baby in the neonatal intensive care unit, citing patient privacy concerns.

"I wanted y'all to see my son for yourself," Hudson told reporters. "So you could see he was actually moving around. He was conscious."

On Feb. 16, Harris County Probate Court Judge William C. McCulloch made the landmark decision to lift restrictions preventing Texas Children's from discontinuing care. However, an emergency appeal by Hudson's attorney, Mario Caballero, and a procedural error on McCulloch's part prevented the hospital from acting for four more weeks.

Texas law allows hospitals can discontinue life sustaining care, even if patient family members disagree. A doctor's recommendation must be approved by a hospital's ethics committee, and the family must be given 10 days from written notice of the decision to try and locate another facility for the patient.

Texas Children's said it contacted 40 facilities with newborn intensive care units, but none would accept Sun. Without legal delays, Sun's care would have ended Nov. 28.

Sun was born with a fatal form of dwarfism characterized by short arms, short legs and lungs too tiny to sustain his body, doctors said. Nearly all babies born with the incurable condition, often diagnosed in utero, die shortly after birth, genetic counselors say.

Sun was delivered full-term at St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital, but Hudson, 33, said she had no prenatal care during which his condition might have been discovered. He was put on a ventilator while doctors figured out what was wrong with him, and Hudson refused when doctors recommending withdrawing treatment.



In fairness to our president, it would be over the top to claim that (had Schiavo been hospitalized in Texas), "George Bush killed Terri Schiavo". But as governor, he did give medical professionals a lot of authority in these matters...

[Raiders Army]

If this thread were to be deleted, Bubba would lose about 100 posts.

[MJ4H]

This thread makes me sick. Some (most) of you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Serisously, you should see how you are acting. I could go into detail but it will just piss me off.

If this thread is any sign, I'm losing a lot of respect for this message board.

[HerRealName]

Here's a link to the video. Those eyes are all over the place. They seem to be following voices a little better than the balloon.


hxxp://www.raven1.net/terriballoon.rm

[st.cronin]

Not sure if this is still interesting to anybody, but here's an article that comes close to expressing my feelings:

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/forum/index.php?ntid=43756&ntpid=2

[Easy Mac]

This thread makes me sick. Some (most) of you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Serisously, you should see how you are acting. I could go into detail but it will just piss me off.

If this thread is any sign, I'm losing a lot of respect for this message board.
I concur with MattJones4ThirdString

[MJ4H]

I concur with MattJones4ThirdString
ouch :(

[Easy Mac]

ouch :(
I'm sorry, that was harsh and a bit trolling... I meant MattJones4ArenaBowlXXIMVP

[JPhillips]

And Jeb just can't let it go.


Schiavo timeline troubles governor
The state attorney will review discrepancies concerning Terri Schiavo's unexplained collapse.
CHRIS TISCH and JONI JAMES
Published June 17, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


LARGO - Refusing to give up on the Terri Schiavo case, Gov. Jeb Bush has asked Pinellas prosecutors to sort out time discrepancies Michael Schiavo has provided regarding the hour he found his wife unconscious 15 years ago.

State Attorney Bernie McCabe has agreed to review the time elements in the case, his chief assistant, Bruce Bartlett, said Thursday.

"We are going to look into the circumstances surrounding the times," said Bartlett, who declined to label the review an investigation. "The governor has expressed concern over that aspect of the case."

Michael Schiavo has said he called 911 immediately after finding his wife collapsed on the floor of their home on Feb. 25, 1990. Though medical records indicate he called 911 about 5:40 a.m. that day, he told the Medical Examiner's Office recently that he found his wife about 4:30 a.m.

The detail fueled suspicions by Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, that Michael Schiavo had some wicked connection to their daughter's collapse and may have delayed his call for help.

"I think this is a very troubling gap in time," Schindler attorney David Gibbs III said Wednesday. "Michael Schiavo needs to step forward and explain."

Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, said if he did give a different time than previously, it was simply a mistake in recalling a detail of an event 15 years ago.

"I think it's preposterous and ludicrous that if Michael did say 4:30 or 5 or something like that, that there's any issue," Felos said. "The opponents of Terri Schiavo's wishes are intent on creating a controversy in this case where none exists."

Bush said he decided to seek the investigation after talking with Dr. Jon Thogmartin, the Pinellas-Pasco medical examiner who spent nearly 11 weeks preparing Schiavo's autopsy report, and learning that the doctor could not determine what led Schiavo to collapse in 1990.

Thogmartin met with the governor the day before the autopsy report was released publicly.

"What he did say to me that was troubling ... was that there was some doubt about when she collapsed and how long it took for a phone call to be made to 911," Bush said. "I think that is worthy of some investigation."

Bartlett said prosecutors will review records and transcripts to sort out the times. McCabe was out of state and could not be reached Thursday.

Felos said it's impossible that 70 minutes elapsed before Michael Schiavo called 911.

"She would have been dead before they (paramedics) got there," he said.

The St. Petersburg Times asked an outside expert, Dr. Amyn M. Rojiani, a pathology professor at the University of South Florida College of Medicine, to examine the autopsy results.

The report says that paramedics began treating Schiavo at 5:52 a.m. after finding her not breathing and in ventricular fibrillation.

A pulse was documented at 6:32 a.m. and a measurable systolic blood pressure at 6:46 a.m. Getting those vital signs back after such a long time was an accomplishment, Rojiani said. When asked if Schiavo could have been revived if her heart had stopped more than an hour before paramedics arrived, he said he didn't think so.

The Schindler family also wants to know what caused Terri Schiavo's heart to temporarily stop beating that morning. They plan to have their own experts review the autopsy in search of answers.

"Our family doesn't understand what led to Terri's collapse," her sister, Suzanne Vitadamo, said Thursday while appearing at the first day of the National Right to Life annual convention in Bloomington, Minn.

She said the autopsy showed no evidence of an eating disorder. That had been one theory for why the then 26-year-old woman collapsed.

Michael Schiavo fought a long battle with his in-laws in the courts, Congress and the White House to remove Terri Schiavo's feeding tube. She died March 31 at the age of 41. The autopsy showed she was blind and her brain had shrunk to about half the normal size for a woman her age.

Michael Schiavo had argued for years that Terri Schiavo had no hope of recovery. His in-laws maintained that she deserved to live and may have recovered somewhat with therapy.

The Schindlers also had accused Michael Schiavo of abusing his wife, but the autopsy found no evidence of any trauma or abuse.

In the days before and after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed, Bush tried to use the state Department of Children and Families to get the tube reinserted. He insisted fresh abuse complaints needed to be investigated, though the subsequent release of those reports have shown the complaints were redundant.

Felos said Bush is at it again.

"I think it's sad and disgusting given the governor's continuing unwarranted meddling in this case," Felos said. "The extent to which he will prostitute himself to right-wing constituents for his future political gain I think is just pitiful."

The autopsy results also drew a response from Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who said Thursday he doesn't regret using his standing as a doctor to question Terri Schiavo's diagnosis from afar during the intense national debate over whether to remove her feeding tube.

Frist, a heart surgeon, said he accepted the results of Schiavo's autopsy but stood by his statements on the Senate floor last March, when he argued that on videotape Schiavo appeared to respond to her family. "Would I do it over again? Yes, I would do it over again," he said.

Frist and other Republicans pushed through unprecedented emergency legislation, signed by President Bush, aimed at prolonging Schiavo's life by allowing the case to be reviewed by federal courts. But federal courts rejected the parents' request to have her feeding tube reinserted.

The autopsy results did little to change the opinions of Florida legislators who supported Gov. Bush's efforts to require the court to reinsert Schiavo's feeding tube.

Sen. Daniel Webster, R-Winter Garden, and Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, who had joined Bush in pushing for legislative intervention in March, were unmoved by the autopsy findings.

The autopsy "affirmed the fact that she died because of an order of the state," Webster said. "For us to do that, we should have known positively what her will was. We didn't."

Nor was there any change on the other side, particularly among the nine Republicans who blocked the March legislation.

"That the brain was half the size, that she couldn't have been fed, that she was blind ... really said that we played politics with this issue and shame on us," said Sen. Nancy Argenziano, R-Crystal River, one of the nine Republican senators.

The Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner's Office, which received at least 500 e-mails in the days surrounding Schiavo's death, received more than 20 more the day after the autopsy was released.

"I would just like to tell you folks that I was one of those doubting Thomas's. I thought Terri could have been helped," Gladys Furber wrote. "I believe your findings. Sometimes we don't want to see things, and we don't want to believe these things. I believe it's called denial."

Jeff Donius of Frankfort, Ill., wrote: "You guys have no credibility whatsoever ... it's all a bunch of propaganda and manipulated data aimed at confirming the lies of Michael Schiavo."

In addition, former Lee County Sheriff John J. McDougall received six months' probation, a $600 fine and community service after he was convicted in a Largo courtroom Wednesday of trying to enter Terri Schiavo's hospice to give her water. McDougall, a Catholic who has been outspoken on right-to-life issues, was arrested March 19 outside Hospice House Woodside in Pinellas Park, where he was trying to take water to Schiavo.

McDougall, 62, could have avoided court by paying a $250 fine. He demanded a trial and was convicted Wednesday of trespassing.

McDougall, who was sheriff from 1988 to 2000, said he has no regrets about the case.

"When you see something like that happening, we cannot continue to call ourselves a civilized society if we don't stand up against that," he said.

[Klinglerware]

And Jeb just can't let it go.



I do wonder how much of the money Florida saved by cutting Medicaid funding will end up being wasted on all of these legal and investigative maneuverings...


Yes, that was a tangential aside, but medicaid is what would have paid for Terri Schiavo's care if the feeding tube was kept in. It would be highly ironic if the state couldn't fully pay for Schiavo's care because they cut Medicaid...

[sabotai]

LARGO - Refusing to give up on the Terri Schiavo case, Gov. Jeb Bush has asked Pinellas prosecutors to sort out time discrepancies Michael Schiavo has provided regarding the hour he found his wife unconscious 15 years ago.
It's a shame that some crimes that happened 15 DAYS ago won't get their due attention now...

[st.cronin]

Well, I guess Jeb won't be the Republican nominee for President anytime soon.

[Klinglerware]

that was a tangential aside

Heh, heh--that sounded like a redundancy...

...much like this thread in general :)

[duckman]

Well, I guess Jeb won't be the Republican nominee for President anytime soon.
You think so? ;)

[st.cronin]

You think so? ;)

I actually used to think in terms of the Republican Party he was 'in line' - if not next, the one after that (2012 or 2016). But he's really just way too right wing nutso to ever be a national player.

[JPhillips]

Don't rule him out. The primary will be decided by the Christian right. That's why you see Frist, Jeb and the rest making such a play. The Christian right can't chose the winner by themsleves, but I guarantee that the nomination can't be won without at least their tacit approval.