Most Underrated Players

[Blackadar]

Should be fun...

What are your most underrated players in each of the 3 major sports - NFL, NBA, MLB?

Rules:
1. They must have competed sometime in the last 35 years (since 1970).
2. They must not and likely will not be elected to the Hall of Fame.
3. The player must have already played the majority of his career.

NFL
QB Neil Lomax (STL) - here's a guy who's 9 year career was shortened by injuries. When he was on, he was fearsome. He played for only 8 years, but was in the top 10 in yards, tds and completions 4 times and made two Pro Bowls. Finished with 22,000 yards passing and a 136/90 TD/INT ratio.

MLB
I'd go with Biggio, but I think he'll make the HOF. So will Jim Rice. So my choice is...
OF Dave Parker (PIT) - It doesn't appear ole' Dave will make the HoF (12% of the vote and dropping). The guy batted .290, hit 339 HRs (when they meant something), 2700 hits, won the 1978 MVP and was a 7 time All-Star.

NBA
Lots of choices. Bernard King. Adrian Dantley. Andrew Toney. Sidney Moncreif. Though I think that King and Dantley will make it. Nope, we're going deep into the archives to find...
G Reggie Theus (CHI) - Who? Try a 2 time All Star who averaged 18.5 ppg AND 6.3 assists for his career. He was a 6'7" combo guard who was impossible to defend. I think there are only four players among the top 40 all-time scorers and top 20 all-time assists leaders: Robertson, Jerry West, Isiah Thomas ... and Theus. The problem is that the guy got stuck with some of the worst teams of his time in Chicago, Kansas City and Sacremento - 2 winning teams in 13 seasons.

[Suicane75]

I 2nd the Lomax suggestion. As a kid I always wondered why he didn't get more national pub.

[st.cronin]

mlb - I nominate Mickey Tettleton. He was about an average defensive catcher, with tremendous obp and excellent power, and when he was younger he was actually a pretty good baserunner. His teams usually played very well, although I'm not sure if he was part of a championship team or not. He almost definitely will never be a hall of famer, and he's also almost definitely BETTER than some people already in the hall.

nba - no idea

nfl - no idea

[korme]

MLB - Is there a more underrated player than Alex Rodriguez?

NFL - Terrell Owens just doesn't get any love.

NBA - THere's a center on Miami, Shaquille O'Neal. Puts up good numbers every year.

[Suicane75]

MLB - Is there a more underrated player than Alex Rodriguez?

NFL - Terrell Owens just doesn't get any love.

NBA - THere's a center on Miami, Shaquille O'Neal. Puts up good numbers every year.
Troll.

And i would like to add Jeff Hornacek.

[k0ruptr]

steve beuerlein

[NYFAN]

NBA - Derek Harper... just one of my favorite players, can't say I remember him much as a Maverick where he did most of his damage, but I thought he should get a little more credit for being such a tough all around player.

[johnnyshaka]

B.J. Surhoff

[timmynausea]

For MLB I'll go with Dale Murphy. He was certainly respected and well known in his prime, and he came really close to winning 3 consecutive mvp awards, but he won't make the hall of fame, and he seems to not be remembered as well as some of the other stars of his time.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Because it's late, I'm just going to go with two guys from the NFL for now, and maybe after I've given it some more thought, I'll come up with names for MLB and NBA. I'm not sure that these two guys are really the most underrated players in my mind, but I think they were very good players and probably won't get much appreciation for their talent.

Garrison Hearst: Everyone thinks of Garrison Hearst for his injuries and his comebacks (all of which were spectacular), but he's a damn good running back on top of that. If he hadn't been injured so badly, he'd likely end his career in the top 20 in all-time rushing yards. I know he's winding down, but as a Broncos fan, I was disappointed to see him rotting on the sidelines last season, especially when it was clear that Quentin Griffin had fumbled away the starting job. Of course, Droughns stepped in and did a great job, but when he needed a breather and Tatum Bell was hurt, they just stopped running the ball. Hearst had 20 rushes all season last year. :(

Terance Mathis: That little guy was all over the field, and he always seemed to be catching touchdown passes. If you needed a second receiver to fill out your fantasy team, he was usually a pretty good choice. It also helped that he almost never missed a game. He was on some pretty dismal Atlanta teams, but he still came out of it looking like a good receiver. I'm glad that he got to play in a Super Bowl. I always thought that he was terribly underrated, although that was probably due to him spending most of his career with the Falcons.

[Warhammer]

NFL - I can certainly see Neil Lomax. Until I can think of someone better, my vote goes to him.

NBA - I would say Kevin Johnson. 17.9 PPG 9.1 APG shot .493 from the field and .841 from the FT line.

MLB - Definitely Bert Blyleven, I won't even bother going into his stats, but he is definitely the most underrated baseball player.

[albionmoonlight]

NFL--Kind of a homer pick here, but I have to go with Rickey Jackson. Had the misfortune of playing for a crappy team in a small market at the same time that Lawrence Taylor was redefining the position. If he had played for Dallas or Washington or Chicago he'd be in the Hall of Fame by now.

[Joe]

definitely Christian Laettner

[st.cronin]

NFL - I can certainly see Neil Lomax. Until I can think of someone better, my vote goes to him.

NBA - I would say Kevin Johnson. 17.9 PPG 9.1 APG shot .493 from the field and .841 from the FT line.

MLB - Definitely Bert Blyleven, I won't even bother going into his stats, but he is definitely the most underrated baseball player.

Kevin Johnson, when healthy, was unreal. What a first step!

Oh, and Blyleven will almost definitely be in the hall of fame someday. As will probably Dale Murphy.

[Honolulu_Blue]

What are your most underrated players in each of the 3 major sports - NFL, NBA, MLB?

I remember when such questions involved four major sports. :(

[mhass]

And i would like to add Jeff Hornacek.
Long live the Cyclones.

[damnMikeBrown]

That guy who was "Mr. Triple Double" in Denver back in the mid-80's...

Vince Coleman(my boyhood baseball player I most wanted to play like. Even learned to switch-hit because of him)

The RB that took over for Walter Payton. Anderson was his name. Really fine back that got injured.

[mhass]

Neal Anderson

[JPhillips]

NFL- Ken Anderson: 1 MVP, led the league in passing four times, 197 TDs, 32, 838 yds 59.3% career completion and 81.9 career rating(higher than Fouts, Namath and Griese)

[mhass]

He's in the Hall I think.

[Senator]

Mel Gray and Terry Metcalf.

[WSUCougar]

2B Frank White

[Pumpy Tudors]

You know, this might be a reach for the given category because he's certainly gotten noticed in the past few years, but I'm gonna throw in Jamie Moyer's name here.

[sterlingice]

I'm pretty sure Rafael Palmeiro has a spot in the Hall but very few casual fans even know who he is. He doesn't have the sexy or glamorous numbers but stuff like his 8 season streak of 35 HR and 100 RBI are just amazing for their consistency.

SI

[Breeze]

Here is an all under-rated baseball team (ignoring those already mentioned above - though I like most of the ones mentioned)

C - Ted Simmons (would say Joe Torre, but he'll make the hall as a manager)
1b - Gil Hodges (if not for the War would be in)
2b - Chuck Knowblanche (was on his way, but the wheels came off)
3b - Ron Santo (vets may put him in)
SS - Tony Fernandez (I would say Trammell, but I'm holding out hope he gets voted in)
OF - Tony Oliva
OF - Dwight Evans (how many gold gloves did this guy win?)
OF - Albert Belle (sob could hit, balls and people)
<i> I would have said Tim Raines, but I'm hoping he gets voted in as well, if not I believe he'll be the person with the most SBs not in the hall</i>

RHP - Tiant (many righties with more wins, but Tiant's win % was good and ERA pretty low)

LHP - Tommy John/ Jim Kaat - if you pick one you'd need to pick the other - look at the stats and remember what Kaat loses in a few wins and ERA he gets back with the gold gloves.

Closer - Jeff Reardon - was dominating for a long time.

[stkelly52]

I would have to say Dave Krieg.

He is in the top ten in attempts, completions and TD passes, and 11th in passing yards, and yet I doubt that he will ever be considered a Hall of Fame member. He helped bring the Seahawks from one of the worst teams in the NFL to being a respectable contender every year during the 80s.

[albionmoonlight]

[Dave Krieg] is in the top ten in attempts, completions and TD passes, and 11th in passing yards . . . .Knock me over with a feather. I had no idea he put up those kinds of numbers.

[korme]

2b - Chuck Knowblanche
Worst butchering of a name of all time. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif I believe it's Knoblauch

[Breeze]

Worst butchering of a name of all time. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif I believe it's Knoblauch


It's been a while since I had to spell it. :rolleyes:

Not sure I spelled it right in the 90s either, but I was probably closer.

[Young Drachma]

John Olerud, Devon White, Tom Henke



I dunno in the NBA or NFL.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Since I've put in a couple of football names and a baseball name, let me add two for basketball here.

Dan Majerle. With all the talk of Robert Horry being a "great teammate" and such in the NBA Finals thread, Majerle was really the type of player who made his teammates better. He never did anything great as an individual, but he was a shot in the arm for the guys on his team.

Another one who came to my head even before Majerle: Dell Curry. Oh, yes, I went there.

[TazFTW]

NBA - I would say Kevin Johnson. 17.9 PPG 9.1 APG shot .493 from the field and .841 from the FT line.
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[DanGarion]

I remember when such questions involved four major sports. :(
There is a forth major sport?

And on that note.

NFL - Jim Everett, they guy was a stud when he was in Anaheim playing for the Rams.

[Pumpy Tudors]

There is a forth major sport?
John Vanbiesbrouck, John Vanbiesbrouck, John Vanbiesbrouck.

[st.cronin]

Assuming the player was going to stay healthy ...

Would you rather have Kevin Johnson or Allen Iverson?

[Suicane75]

Chet Lemon

[Kodos]

Assuming the player was going to stay healthy ...

Would you rather have Kevin Johnson or Allen Iverson?

Kevin Johnson. Iverson is a jerk. :)

[jamesUMD]

maybe not underated, but overlooked.

Bo Jackson

I have almost no doubt in my mind that had he stayed healthy, he would be the best RB of all time. The guy was just silly.

[Suicane75]

maybe not underated, but overlooked.

Bo Jackson

I have almost no doubt in my mind that had he stayed healthy, he would be the best RB of all time. The guy was just silly.
Could he have HOF'd both sports do ya think?

[jamesUMD]

I think he was a good baseball player but can't honestly speak for how he ranked in baseball. I'm not as knowlegdable when it comes to baseball.

[Captain2711]

MLB- Joe Carter and Dwight Evans

NFL - O.J. Anderson

NBA - Del Curry

And I'll throw in Esa Tikkanen for the NHL.

[Draft Dodger]

great call on Dave Kreig. I would also add Art Monk and Harold Carmichael to the NFL list. Also, he doesn't really qualify as "underrated" as he was a #1 overall pick, but I think because of his shortened career people forget about Billy Sims.

my baseball pick would be Fred McGriff

[oykib]

MLB- Joe Carter

If anything, Joe Carter is vastly overrated.

For MLB I would list Bobby Abreu. But I think future writers will understand his geatness better and he'll make the hall. I'll go with Goose Gossage instead.

The NBA is difficult because guys make the Hall much more easily. There are fewer of them to choose from, and college contributions count heavily. The Reggie Theus pick earlier seems as good as any.

For the NFL, I'll go with the guy who was my favorite player when I was growing up, Eric Metcalf. The guy could do it all at just below HoF level. He was a good running back, a very good reciever, and an excellent punt returner.

He's another case of a guy whose numbers'd be good enough for enshrinement if he had played on winners instead of also-rans his whole career.

[Tigercat]

I have to ditto AM and go with the homer pick of Ricky Jackson.

Jackson's stats were not that much less than Lawrence Taylor who was a sure fire Hall of Famer. And Jackson made plays while playing traditional SLB. While L.T. often just rushed the QB, Jackson often played over the TE and even had to move into coverage more often.

Jackson got his stats while playing amongst other LBs that were also pro bowlers(There was even that one year where all 4 Saints LBs went to the pro bowl.) There is no reason for Jackson to not at least get consideration for the Hall of Fame, he had the stats for it, and he played for some good Saints teams. But a little more important than that may be that he was by far the best player for Ds that were among the leagues best for a number of years. Yet Rickey never gets the slightest consideration because he played for a small market team that is known for its worst and not recognized enough for its best. If he had played for a team in a larger market with the same record as the Saints over that time period he would be a HOFer, no doubt in my mind. Fucking elitists.

[Draft Dodger]

another NFLer I always thought was underrated - Brian Sipe

[st.cronin]

Kevin Johnson. Iverson is a jerk. :)

I think even if Iverson isn't a jerk you gotta take KJ. He was absolutely unreal when he had his A game.

[Blackadar]

another NFLer I always thought was underrated - Brian Sipe

Good call. As a Steelers fan, I hated playing against him.

[sterlingice]

And I'll throw in Esa Tikkanen for the NHL.
He has the greatest name, too. Just rolls off the announcer's tongue.

SI

[Pumpy Tudors]

For the NFL, I'll go with the guy who was my favorite player when I was growing up, Eric Metcalf. The guy could do it all at just below HoF level. He was a good running back, a very good reciever, and an excellent punt returner.

He's another case of a guy whose numbers'd be good enough for enshrinement if he had played on winners instead of also-rans his whole career.
Personally, I never thought Eric Metcalf was much of a running back, but the Falcons apparently thought the same thing and started using him in his second-best spot as a wide receiver. No argument on the punt returns, though. :)

[Captain2711]

Joe Carter overrated??? Are you kidding me? The man drove in 100 runs in 10 of 12 years (incl. a 98 rbi campaign) while averaging 27 hrs a year before the major raise in hrs in the late 90's. Oh yeah, he also was the leader of a team that won 3 cons. division titles and 2 cons. world series. He never struck out more than 113 times in a year and avg. 17 sb's.

[Lathum]

joe Carter wasn't even the best player on his team. Take away one big homerun and Joe Carter is a nobody.

[Captain2711]

except for his 396 hrs and 1400+ rbi's

[Draft Dodger]

Joe Carter overrated??? Are you kidding me? The man drove in 100 runs in 10 of 12 years (incl. a 98 rbi campaign) while averaging 27 hrs a year before the major raise in hrs in the late 90's. Oh yeah, he also was the leader of a team that won 3 cons. division titles and 2 cons. world series. He never struck out more than 113 times in a year and avg. 17 sb's.

not a Carter hater, but he also only cracked .275 once in his career.

[Captain2711]

I know Carter had his average problems which is why he is not a HOF'er, but averaging 27hrs and 107 rbi's for his career is worthy of being in the class of being underrated. If anyone has the list of players not in the HOF who averaged 100 rbi's for a career of more than 10 years, I'd love to see it.

[Lathum]

Cecil Fielder is pretty close

[Draft Dodger]

If anyone has the list of players not in the HOF who averaged 100 rbi's for a career of more than 10 years, I'd love to see it.

well, I already gave you one...
:p

(I get your point though)

[Lathum]

Funny, he is also another over rated blue jay

[Lathum]

If anyone has the list of players not in the HOF who averaged 100 rbi's for a career of more than 10 years, I'd love to see it.

Pete Rose

[Captain2711]

Pete Rose? Did you actually look at his stats? He had 150 rbi's less than carter and played 10 more years. I guess your knowledge of stats is like your poker game...weak.

[Draft Dodger]

I know Carter had his average problems which is why he is not a HOF'er, but averaging 27hrs and 107 rbi's for his career is worthy of being in the class of being underrated. If anyone has the list of players not in the HOF who averaged 100 rbi's for a career of more than 10 years, I'd love to see it.

also
Andres Galarraga (another good underrated choice) and Palmeiro (might get in to the Hall though) both averaged over 100. so did Canseco (waaay overrated), Juan Gonzalez (underrated), McGwire (Hall status up in the air, mostly overrated), as well as the previously mentioned Jim Rice. Dave Parker, Harold Baines (guh), Andre Dawson, Ted Simmons and Chili Davis all averaged 90+

[Draft Dodger]

Pete Rose? Did you actually look at his stats? He had 150 rbi's less than carter and played 10 more years. I guess your knowledge of stats is like your poker game...weak.

Rose is, however, a very underrated gambler.

[mckerney]

Bert Blyleven easily qualifies.

Another who should be in the hall but isn't is Jim Marshall

[Captain2711]

I love the Jim Rice comparison to Joe Carter. Perfect match. Identical 16 year careers except for Rice's superior avg.

[oykib]

Joe Carter overrated??? Are you kidding me? The man drove in 100 runs in 10 of 12 years (incl. a 98 rbi campaign) while averaging 27 hrs a year before the major raise in hrs in the late 90's. Oh yeah, he also was the leader of a team that won 3 cons. division titles and 2 cons. world series. He never struck out more than 113 times in a year and avg. 17 sb's.


Special Batting Glossary

Year Ag Tm Lg PA Outs RC RC/27 OWP BA *lgBA OBP *lgOBP SLG *lgSLG OPS *lgOPS*OPS+ psOPS SB%
+--------------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+-----+----+
1983 23 CHC NL 52 44 2 1.23 | .176 .269| .176 .338| .235 .399| .412 .737| 11 100%
1984 24 CLE AL 257 184 35 5.14 | .275 .266| .307 .329| .467 .401| .775 .730| 110 33%
1985 25 CLE AL 523 383 60 4.23 | .262 .260| .298 .326| .409 .404| .707 .730| 93 80%
1986 26 CLE AL 709 487 114 6.32 | .302 .259| .335 .327| .514 .404| .849 .731| 130 80%
1987 27 CLE AL 629 452 83 4.96 | .264 .266| .304 .335| .480 .427| .784 .762| 103 83%
1988 28 CLE AL 670 471 92 5.27 | .271 .263| .314 .328| .478 .396| .792 .724| 116 84%
1989 29 CLE AL 705 511 87 4.60 | .243 .263| .292 .328| .465 .387| .757 .715| 109 72%
1990 30 SDP NL 697 513 71 3.74 | .232 .266| .290 .332| .391 .399| .681 .731| 85 78%
1991 31 TOR AL 706 488 104 5.75 | .273 .265| .330 .334| .503 .402| .833 .736| 124 69%
1992 32 TOR AL 683 491 94 5.17 | .264 .265| .309 .335| .498 .393| .808 .728| 119 70%
1993 33 TOR AL 669 473 91 5.19 | .254 .269| .312 .340| .489 .411| .802 .751| 111 72%
1994 34 TOR AL 483 336 74 5.95 | .271 .273| .317 .345| .524 .434| .841 .779| 113 100%
1995 35 TOR AL 603 434 71 4.42 | .253 .270| .300 .344| .428 .427| .728 .771| 88 92%
1996 36 TOR AL 682 491 90 4.95 | .253 .284| .306 .358| .475 .456| .782 .815| 90 53%
1997 37 TOR AL 668 492 68 3.73 | .234 .272| .284 .342| .399 .431| .683 .773| 76 80%
1998 38 BAL AL 303 221 35 4.28 | .247 .269| .297 .338| .424 .429| .721 .766| 87 75%
SFG NL 115 80 20 6.75 | .295 .264| .322 .334| .562 .417| .884 .751| 131 100%
TOT 418 301 55 4.93 | .260 .268| .304 .337| .461 .425| .765 .762| 99 80%
+--------------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+-----+----+
16 Seasons 9154 6551 1191 4.91 | .259 .267| .306 .336| .464 .413| .771 .749| 104 77%

That OPS+ tells the whole story. That relates the player's OPS to the league-wide average. It's park-adjusted and, by defenition- league and era-adjusted.

That 104 is barely above average. That includes catchers' and middle infielders' OPSs. The RBI are a product of always batting 3-5 on teams that usually had good table setters.

His OBP was not good. Which means that he used up a lot of outs to get those RBIs. His .464 SLG was good, but certainly not elite. He was never considered a great or even very good fielder, either.

[st.cronin]

Everybody either wants to rip on Carter for his obp or else they want him in the Hall of Fame. He was a good player, a few notches below Dale Murphy. He was a good defensive outfielder (played quite a bit of center when he was young), a good baserunner (was an early pioneer in the 30-30 club), extremely durable (an underrated skill), and a decent hitter. He's both under- and over- rated.

[Warhammer]

For NHL I gotta agree with Tiki...

NFL I need to change my vote to Dave Kreig, he was a stud. Just don't ask him to not fumble.

MLB - He may still be playing, but I don't think Jim Edmonds is going to make the Hall and that is a shame!

[Blackadar]

Ricky Jackson and Brian Sipe are good calls. It's hard to believe that Sipe only made the Pro Bowl once. Jackson was a 6 time Pro Bowler. He may have a chance at the HoF.

Dave Krieg? Well, he made the Pro Bowl 3 times in his career, so he didn't suck. His career standing are awesome: Pass attempts: 10th, Completions: 10, Passing yards: 11 and Passing TDs: 9. However, I never thought of him as a winner - probably because his postseason starting record was 2-6. I would have rather had Jim Zorn, who played on some truly dreadful Seattle teams.

As for Joe Carter - who played in a higher-scoring era for much of his career than Jim Rice - I'd also say he was overrated. They make for a great comparison. Neither could be considered a great fielder and they played the same positions (OF, 1B, DH).

Joe's big years were from 1985-1995. Rice's big years were 1975-1985.

Jim Rice: .298 BA, 382 HRs, .502 Slugging, .352 OBP, 1451 RBIs, 1249 Runs.

Joe Carter: .259 BA, 296 HRs, .464 Slugging, .306 OBP, 1445 RBIs, 1170 Runs.

Carter did have more SBs than Rice (175 more or so).

Rice is clearly superior in raw numbers. The discrepancy is even more pronounced when compared to their contempories. Carter finished in the top 10 in slugging only 3 times. Rice did it 8 times. RBIs are Carter's biggest claim to fame, but both he and Rice finished in the top 10 nine times. Homers? 7 Each, but Rice finished #1 three times. Carter finished in the top 3 only once.

Verdict: Carter isn't underrated.