A New National Anthem???

[oliegirl]

After reading a thread about the "Black National Anthem" (also known as "Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing") by James Weldon Johnson, I was curious. Why does the African American community feel it's necessary to have their own National Anthem? From my perspective, when they fought for civil rights, they were fighting to be treated as Americans like every one else and not have their freedoms taken away...so once they received that and they won the fight (as they should have, that was a dark part of American History), why would they, as a community, want to segregate themselves?

This is not the first time I have had this thought. I think the first time was in college when I was active in Greek Life...we held our Greek Week and invited all the "Black" organizations to participate, and even though they never did, we included their letters on all the shirts, etc...for the event. After Greek Week was over, a "Black Greek Week" would be held. Totally separate events, parties, everything, and the other fraternities and sororities were not invited and not included on their shirts, cups, hats, etc...

I am not trying to start a fight or anger people, I am just curious as to why this occurs and why the African American community thinks it's necessary. Also, is this a form of reverse racism?

These are the lyrics to the song. FYI - I found these by googling "Black National Anthem" and clicking on the first result that came up. hxxp://www.black-network.com/anthem.htm


Lift ev'ry voice and sing,
Till earth and heaven ring.
Ring with the harmonies of Liberty;
Let our rejoicing rise,
High as the list'ning skies,
Let it resound loud as the rolling sea.
Sing a song full of the faith that the dark past has taught us,
Sing a song full of the hope that the present has brought us;
Facing the rising sun of our new day begun,
Let us march on till victory is won.

Stony the road we trod,
Bitter the chast'ning rod,
Felt in the days when hope unborn had died;
Yet with a steady beat,
Have not our weary feet,
Come to the place for which our fathers sighed?
We have come over a way that with tears has been watered,
We have come, treading our path through the blood of the slaughtered,
Out from the gloomy past,
Till now we stand at last
Where the white gleam of our bright star is cast.

God of our weary years,
God of our silent tears,
Thou who has brought us thus far on the way;
Thou who has by Thy might,
Led us into the light,
Keep us forever in the path, we pray.
Lest our feet stray from the places, our God, where we met Thee,
Lest our hearts, drunk with the wine of the world, we forget Thee,
Shadowed beneath thy hand,
May we forever stand,
True to our God,
True to our native land.

[Franklinnoble]

I think we need a white national anthem.

[Desnudo]

I think we need a white national anthem.

There already is one

[Klinglerware]

There already is one

Yeah, the one about the bombs with the tune stolen from an English drinking song...

[Subby]

Define "African American Community" first.

[oliegirl]

Define "African American Community" first.

Well, I guess it would be the politicians and activists who come up with ideas like the "Black National Anthem", and then it would include the people who buy into the idea and feel it's a good thing.

I had a hard time writing my post, I was trying to be very PC and not offend anyone, because that is not my intention, I truly am curious about this, however it's a very non-PC topic. If it's rambling or incoherent, that is why :rolleyes:

[sterlingice]

There already is one
Yes, yes- because everything this country has is white unless it's convenient for someone else to use it. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

SI

[Subby]

I think you are making a leap of logic when you attribute the actions of a few "politicians and leaders" and their supporters to the entire African American community feeling it is necessary to have their own national anthem.

I don't know - the whole thing seems pretty harmless to me...

Your point about separatism in the greek system - now *that* is a good topic. That always bothered me.

[oliegirl]

I think you are making a leap of logic when you attribute the actions of a few "politicians and leaders" and their supporters to the entire African American community feeling it is necessary to have their own national anthem.

I don't know - the whole thing seems pretty harmless to me...

Your point about separatism in the greek system - now *that* is a good topic. That always bothered me.

I see your point, but in my mind, they are the same...just on a different scale. I don't see much difference between having 2 anthems and having 2 greek weeks. Just one is viewed on a national level, and one on a school by school level. But it's 2 symptoms of the same thing - a group of Americans feeling that they, for whatever reason, need to segregate themselves by having their own "whatever", be it a week of celebration, a song, etc...

[John Galt]

I see your point, but in my mind, they are the same...just on a different scale. I don't see much difference between having 2 anthems and having 2 greek weeks. Just one is viewed on a national level, and one on a school by school level. But it's 2 symptoms of the same thing - a group of Americans feeling that they, for whatever reason, need to segregate themselves by having their own "whatever", be it a week of celebration, a song, etc...

Could it be that they already feel excluded and segragated against, so they decide to pursue separation on their own terms? In other words, if you feel American culture doesn't include you, you might want to start working on developing your own culture (instead of being defined simply as "different" or "out of the mainstream).

[MJ4H]

Yeah, the one about the bombs with the tune stolen from an English drinking song...
Many national anthems are "stolen" if this is what you mean by "stolen."

[Flasch186]

it was the same at my school I didn't and don't understand it considering the fight for equality. If they feel segregated against our downtrodden I say fight harder, fight more, fight louder, fight, fight fight....nonviolent of course :) I feel that everyone should be equal and hate it when one group no matter whom chooses to pull out of the equality thing.

[maximus]

After reading a thread about the "Black National Anthem" (also known as "Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing") by James Weldon Johnson, I was curious. Why does the African American community feel it's necessary to have their own National Anthem? From my perspective, when they fought for civil rights, they were fighting to be treated as Americans like every one else and not have their freedoms taken away...so once they received that and they won the fight (as they should have, that was a dark part of American History), why would they, as a community, want to segregate themselves?

This is not the first time I have had this thought. I think the first time was in college when I was active in Greek Life...we held our Greek Week and invited all the "Black" organizations to participate, and even though they never did, we included their letters on all the shirts, etc...for the event. After Greek Week was over, a "Black Greek Week" would be held. Totally separate events, parties, everything, and the other fraternities and sororities were not invited and not included on their shirts, cups, hats, etc...

I am not trying to start a fight or anger people, I am just curious as to why this occurs and why the African American community thinks it's necessary. Also, is this a form of reverse racism?

These are the lyrics to the song. FYI - I found these by googling "Black National Anthem" and clicking on the first result that came up. hxxp://www.black-network.com/anthem.htm


Lift ev'ry voice and sing,
Till earth and heaven ring.
Ring with the harmonies of Liberty;
Let our rejoicing rise,
High as the list'ning skies,
Let it resound loud as the rolling sea.
Sing a song full of the faith that the dark past has taught us,
Sing a song full of the hope that the present has brought us;
Facing the rising sun of our new day begun,
Let us march on till victory is won.

Stony the road we trod,
Bitter the chast'ning rod,
Felt in the days when hope unborn had died;
Yet with a steady beat,
Have not our weary feet,
Come to the place for which our fathers sighed?
We have come over a way that with tears has been watered,
We have come, treading our path through the blood of the slaughtered,
Out from the gloomy past,
Till now we stand at last
Where the white gleam of our bright star is cast.

God of our weary years,
God of our silent tears,
Thou who has brought us thus far on the way;
Thou who has by Thy might,
Led us into the light,
Keep us forever in the path, we pray.
Lest our feet stray from the places, our God, where we met Thee,
Lest our hearts, drunk with the wine of the world, we forget Thee,
Shadowed beneath thy hand,
May we forever stand,
True to our God,
True to our native land.


No offense to black people but they are segregating themselves eveday but yet they oppose segregation. :confused:

BET Channel
Black Stars channel
All black colleges
All black churches (yes, I have actually seen this)
*A few others I can think of right now as I haven't spelt for 24 hrs*
"African American" - this one really confuses me. If you are born here (in the US) then you are an American not African. If they want to go that route then I want to be refered to as a Serbian-English Amercian and if not - I will cry racism.

[Flasch186]

.....ALthough it is important to keep your heritage.....diversity is what makes America better than any other country in the world, IMO.

[QuikSand]

I think it's really difficult for any one person to try and make a judgment about what is right for all people to do to reflect and respect their cultural hertage.

[Subby]

No offense to black people but they are segregating themselves eveday but yet they oppose segregation. :confused:

BET Channel
Black Stars channel
All black colleges
All black churches (yes, I have actually seen this)
*A few others I can think of right now as I haven't spelt for 24 hrs*
"African American" - this one really confuses me. If you are born here (in the US) then you are an American not African. If they want to go that route then I want to be refered to as a Serbian-English Amercian and if not - I will cry racism.
Yeah, those blacks should know better. Wise up, black people!

[rkmsuf]

Yeah, those blacks should know better. Wise up, black people!

Fight the Power!

Word to Yo Mutha.

That WB is killin you mo fos.

[John Galt]

it was the same at my school I didn't and don't understand it considering the fight for equality. If they feel segregated against our downtrodden I say fight harder, fight more, fight louder, fight, fight fight....nonviolent of course :) I feel that everyone should be equal and hate it when one group no matter whom chooses to pull out of the equality thing.

It is not just about equality, though. I don't know anything about the specifics of the national anthem discussion, so let me offer examples with which I am more familiar.

Gays in America have long felt like outsiders. So much so that they have remained in the closet until very recently (and many still do). However, some gays actually decided the best way to confront prejudice was to "queer" it. This is the source of what gay academics call Queer Theory (QT). They believed that embracing the flamboyant, "out" gay image was a necessary step in escaping the closet. They tried to turn a negative into a postive.

Feminists on the other hand have rarely tried to "queer" the stereotypes applied to women. Generally, they have opposed efforts to inflict patriarchal norms on them.

Both the gay and feminist strategies have had success (and both have triggered backlash as well). However, the common strain in each is a measure of separatism. Feminists felt it was necessary to have "private" space for women to discover what being female was about. Simply being "not men" was insufficient. Similarly, some gays felt having gay pride and strong communities was a way to make their political presence known. Otherwise, they feared they would spend decades more in the closet.

Neither agenda was opposed to equality, but both recognized that the battle over culture was important (and not just the battle over laws).

edit: I'm a slow typer sometimes and I see this thread is going in VERY different directions. Oh well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

No offense to black people but they are segregating themselves eveday but yet they oppose segregation.

That's an easy one -- "they" aren't as opposed to "elective segregation" as some outlets would have you believe.

The difference is that if you're white & choose "elective segregation" then you're deemed racist. Any other race/ethnicity and you're just "celebrating your cultural heritage".

[Klinglerware]

Many national anthems are "stolen" if this is what you mean by "stolen."

Very true. But I guess that if we were going to borrow the tune from another song, we could have at least taken something a little more dignified. The original song has long since been shrouded by the mists of time, so it has little meaning for us today. But to put in perspective, if the same thing were to happen today, I guess it would be akin to a new nation setting the words to their newly written anthem to the "Meow Mix" jingle or something.

[HomerJSimpson]

I thought we had a spanish national anthem.

"Jose, can you see?"

[Schmidty]

There are so many things I want to say in this thread, but I don't need the headache that would occur if I said them.

[JPhillips]

The difference is that if you're white & choose "elective segregation" then you're deemed racist. Any other race/ethnicity and you're just "celebrating your cultural heritage".

I heard this from a guy in Little Italy during the St. Patrick's Day parade while riding on his Highland games float.

[Blackadar]

I heard this from a guy in Little Italy during the St. Patrick's Day parade while riding on his Highland games float.

That had all the subtlety of a sledgehammer...

[Greyroofoo]

I am against this idea because one national anthem at a sports game is enough to sit through

[oliegirl]

No offense to black people but they are segregating themselves eveday but yet they oppose segregation. :confused:

BET Channel
Black Stars channel
All black colleges
All black churches (yes, I have actually seen this)
*A few others I can think of right now as I haven't spelt for 24 hrs*
"African American" - this one really confuses me. If you are born here (in the US) then you are an American not African. If they want to go that route then I want to be refered to as a Serbian-English Amercian and if not - I will cry racism.

I think this pretty much is how I feel...they fought so hard to be equal, but now they are trying to set themselves apart. Yes, slavery was wrong - but no one alive today ever owned a slave (or the number is so few they aren't countable), so why are we as white americans still forced to apologize for mistakes that happened in the past? No black/African American person today was owned (again, or the number is so low...) so why do they feel that this is still a point of argument and hold onto it? If I had something that ugly in my past, I'd want to let go of it and move on...the German's don't keep dredging up Hitler and reliving that part of their history, do they? Do the Italians still discuss Mussolini on a daily basis and rehash it all? There are many other groups of people who were treated just as badly - the Japanese during the war, the Irish Americans, etc...yet they have all seemed, as a community, to have moved on. There may be Japanese churches, but that is because they are speaking a different language and praying to a totally different God. Why are there "black" churches and "white" churches? I just think that if they want to be treated equally and fairly, then there has to be less self-imposed segregation. I am not saying don't celebrate and imbrace the diversity which makes America so wonderful, I am just saying don't think that diversity makes us so different that we are inherently different.

[Klinglerware]

I think this pretty much is how I feel...they fought so hard to be equal, but now they are trying to set themselves apart.

The fact that you are making assumptions about all black people and lumping them all together because of one song that one person wrote (and one that very few people have actually heard of) perhaps suggests that black people are still not viewed as individuals by the country at large...

[oliegirl]

The fact that you are making assumptions about all black people and lumping them all together because of one song that one person wrote (and one that very few people have actually heard of) perhaps suggests that black people are still not viewed as individuals by the country at large...

No, I said earlier that in this post I considered the Black Community (aka "them or they") to be to the political leaders who thought this was necessary and the people who chose to agree with them and follow their lead. I never lumped all black people together and went out of my way to say I was avoiding doing so.

[Klinglerware]

No, I said earlier that in this post I considered the Black Community (aka "them or they") to be to the political leaders who thought this was necessary and the people who chose to agree with them and follow their lead. I never lumped all black people together and went out of my way to say I was avoiding doing so.

Okay, fair enough. But why assume that just because one black guy wrote some song, he is the voice of the "Black Community" (whatever that means)? Remember the thread about the White Power twelve year old singers from a few days ago? Nobody in the mainstream considers them the voice of the "White Community", and laugh off any possible influence they may have. I doubt that this anthem is any more mainstream in the black community (or else more people would have heard about this before), so I don't see what the concern is all about...

[JonInMiddleGA]

I doubt that this anthem is any more mainstream in the black community (or else more people would have heard about this before), so I don't see what the concern is all about...

I dunno, I've heard of it in the past.
And a quick Google turns up 633,000 hits for "Black National Anthem", among them, a link to the lyrics as they were recognized by the state of Florida as part of Black History Month.

So it doesn't appear to be that obscure.

[Klinglerware]

Jon,

Your assertion is fair that the "Black National Anthem" is probably not as obscure as I think it is.

But what does a google search hit count prove? Google "White power music", you get 17,900,000 hits. Hell, typing in "Jon In Middle GA" yields 6,490,000 hits...

[yabanci]

.... From my perspective, when they fought for civil rights, they were fighting to be treated as Americans like every one else and not have their freedoms taken away...so once they received that and they won the fight (as they should have, that was a dark part of American History), why would they, as a community, want to segregate themselves?.....

It sounds like you are assuming that this is a recent thing, when in fact it originated in 1900.

Lift Every Voice and Sing — often called "the Black National Anthem" — was written as a poem by James Weldon Johnson (1871-1938) and then set to music by his brother John Rosamond Johnson (1873-1954) in 1899. It was first performed in public in the Johnsons' hometown of Jacksonville, Florida as part of a celebration of Lincoln's Birthday on February 12, 1900 by a choir composed of 500 schoolchildren at the segregated Stanton School, where James Weldon Johnson was principal.

Singing this song quickly became a way for African Americans to demonstrate their patriotism and hope for the future. In calling for earth and heaven to "ring with the harmonies of Liberty," they could subtly speak out against racism and Jim Crow laws — and especially the huge number of lynchings that were accompanying the rise of the Ku Klux Klan at the turn of the century. In 1919, the NAACP adopted the song as "the Negro National Anthem." By the 1920s, copies of "Lift Every Voice and Sing" could be found in black churches across the country, often pasted into the hymnals.

During and after the Civil rights movement, the song experienced a rebirth, and by the 1970s it was often sung immediately after the Star Spangled Banner at public events and performances in cities and towns across the United States with a significant African-American population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_Every_Voice_and_Sing

[Klinglerware]

Thank for the post, Yabanci. You learn something new every day. I guess this is something that can be considered "tradition" and "honoring the past" then...


Singing this song quickly became a way for African Americans to demonstrate their patriotism and hope for the future. In calling for earth and heaven to "ring with the harmonies of Liberty," they could subtly speak out against racism and Jim Crow laws — and especially the huge number of lynchings that were accompanying the rise of the Ku Klux Klan at the turn of the century. In 1919, the NAACP adopted the song as "the Negro National Anthem." By the 1920s, copies of "Lift Every Voice and Sing" could be found in black churches across the country, often pasted into the hymnals.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jon,

Your assertion is fair that the "Black National Anthem" is probably not as obscure as I think it is.

But what does a google search hit count prove? Google "White power music", you get 17,900,000 hits. Hell, typing in "Jon In Middle GA" yields 6,490,000 hits...

If I'm getting that many Google hits, with the phrase inside quotation marks, I really got raise my rates for appearances ;)

[Klinglerware]

If I'm getting that many Google hits, with the phrase inside quotation marks, I really got raise my rates for appearances ;)

Heh, heh, my bad. Let's put in the quotes:

"Black National Anthem": 4,690
"white power music": 9,850
"JonInMiddleGa": 28

I guess you aren't as influential as I thought :)

[Pumpy Tudors]

No offense to black people but they are segregating themselves eveday but yet they oppose segregation. :confused:

BET Channel
Black Stars channel
All black colleges
All black churches (yes, I have actually seen this)
"African American" - this one really confuses me. If you are born here (in the US) then you are an American not African. If they want to go that route then I want to be refered to as a Serbian-English Amercian and if not - I will cry racism.
There are a lot of points in this thread, and I can't address them all, but let me try to tackle the above point from my perspective.

First of all, there's a big difference between the phrase "all black colleges" and "historically black college." Nobody is going to be excluded from a historically black college because of their ethnicity. I would imagine that the same is true of churches, although I can't verify that.

As far as TV networks are concerned, it seems pretty clear to me that these are created to provide entertainment to people who are interested in seeing and supporting projects that feature black participants. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether the director or the actors are black, but there are a lot of black people who feel that this type of programming comes from a more familiar perspective. I don't think it has anything to do with black people wanting to separate from everybody else. It's just to provide around-the-clock entertainment that has been slow to break into other television networks.

Are people really offended by the concept, or are they offended by the name? Does the name "Black Stars Channel" offend people because there would be a huge uproar about a "White Stars Channel"? Would this really be an issue if there just happened to be a television network that just happened to show Jason's Lyric followed by Poetic Justice followed by Juice, but there was absolutely no indication in the network's name that there would be a lot of programming with a high concentration of black culture? I think people who don't care for that programming just wouldn't watch and there wouldn't be many complaints. Am I just being naive here?

As far as the phrase "African-American", some people like to be referred to in different ways. I don't think the term itself is offensive, and it appears to me that the real problem is that other people don't know which term to use. I can see a white person thinking "Does he want to be called 'African-American'? Does he want to be called 'black'? Does he want to be called something else? Why do I have to walk on eggshells around this guy?" Those are valid concerns to me, but a lot of the complaints end up sounding like "Why don't those people just PICK A NAME?" Of course, considering that we're all individuals, there's not going to be some name that we can all just agree to. After all, you might meet four people named Robert, but you might find that you could have to use "Robert", "Rob", "Bob", and "Scooter" to get polite responses from all of them.

As far as the accuracy of the term "African-American" goes, well, that seems to be a related but ultimately separate discussion.

[Buccaneer]

Well said, Scooter.

[Klinglerware]

First of all, there's a big difference between the phrase "all black colleges" and "historically black college." Nobody is going to be excluded from a historically black college because of their ethnicity.


Very true point on historically black colleges. In fact, there has been an institutional push at some of these schools to be more diverse. I do remember a 60 minutes (or whatever) story about how some of these schools actually have scholarship programs aimed at non-African American students. There have even been charges that at some schools, white applicants are admitted (or are offered scholarships) with a slightly lower academic profile than a typical african-american admit (I'm not sure on this point though--it might have been just to do with scholarships, ie, how black students did not have access to scholarships that white students with lower academic credentials got).

[Buccaneer]

As much as I believe in meritocracy, I encourage the support of HBCU.

[oliegirl]

There are a lot of points in this thread, and I can't address them all, but let me try to tackle the above point from my perspective.

First of all, there's a big difference between the phrase "all black colleges" and "historically black college." Nobody is going to be excluded from a historically black college because of their ethnicity. I would imagine that the same is true of churches, although I can't verify that.

As far as TV networks are concerned, it seems pretty clear to me that these are created to provide entertainment to people who are interested in seeing and supporting projects that feature black participants. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether the director or the actors are black, but there are a lot of black people who feel that this type of programming comes from a more familiar perspective. I don't think it has anything to do with black people wanting to separate from everybody else. It's just to provide around-the-clock entertainment that has been slow to break into other television networks.

Are people really offended by the concept, or are they offended by the name? Does the name "Black Stars Channel" offend people because there would be a huge uproar about a "White Stars Channel"? Would this really be an issue if there just happened to be a television network that just happened to show Jason's Lyric followed by Poetic Justice followed by Juice, but there was absolutely no indication in the network's name that there would be a lot of programming with a high concentration of black culture? I think people who don't care for that programming just wouldn't watch and there wouldn't be many complaints. Am I just being naive here?

As far as the phrase "African-American", some people like to be referred to in different ways. I don't think the term itself is offensive, and it appears to me that the real problem is that other people don't know which term to use. I can see a white person thinking "Does he want to be called 'African-American'? Does he want to be called 'black'? Does he want to be called something else? Why do I have to walk on eggshells around this guy?" Those are valid concerns to me, but a lot of the complaints end up sounding like "Why don't those people just PICK A NAME?" Of course, considering that we're all individuals, there's not going to be some name that we can all just agree to. After all, you might meet four people named Robert, but you might find that you could have to use "Robert", "Rob", "Bob", and "Scooter" to get polite responses from all of them.

As far as the accuracy of the term "African-American" goes, well, that seems to be a related but ultimately separate discussion.


OK- I guess in hindsight I should not have used the Black National Anthem as an example, it still intrigues me, but does not really coincide with the point I was trying to make. As subby stated early on, he too had experience with the greek week/black greek week issue. Can you explain that?

Why is it OK for a group of black students to decline an invitation to participate in an event called Greek Week with all the other fraternities and sororities, then within 2-3 weeks later throw their own celebration called Black Greek Week? If the Panhellenic Council of a school decided to not invite the black fraternities and sororities because they knew they would decline the invitation, and then call their celebration "White Greek Week" - there would be cries of racism and bigotry and the story would make national news. I just see it as a double standard.

[maximus]

IMO, anyone who is born in the US are just "American". But what is American really.(?) It is a mixture of races, cultures and ways of life. There are no "African-Americans" just like there isn't any Serbian-English Americans. If you are born in the US then you are an American. If you are born in Africa and then live in America (or become a US citizen) then you may be considered an African-American. Both my parents were born in different countries. My mother was born and raised in England and my father in Serbia. I don't go around telling everybody I am a Serbian-English American nor does anyone observe me that way even though I look european.

I refuse to call any black person an African American. If I start to do this I might as well start calling Jamaicans who live in the US "Jamaican-American" or a Japanese person who is a US citizen a "Japanese-American". Before you know it everyone will be labled a different name. I will not be aprt of that. It's an old saying but there is only one race and thats the human race. This is not to say I am against black people (or any other "race"). Actually I am far from it. I've dated black girls in high-school and one of them was a very serious.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Why is it OK for a group of black students to decline an invitation to participate in an event called Greek Week with all the other fraternities and sororities, then within 2-3 weeks later throw their own celebration called Black Greek Week? If the Panhellenic Council of a school decided to not invite the black fraternities and sororities because they knew they would decline the invitation, and then call their celebration "White Greek Week" - there would be cries of racism and bigotry and the story would make national news. I just see it as a double standard.
For starters, I wasn't in a fraternity, so I don't even know what happens during a Greek Week. That means that I can only speculate about this. Anyway, I would imagine that Black Greek Week was celebrated in a fairly different way than Greek Week was. Perhaps the crowd that is inclined to show up at Black Greek Week wouldn't feel as comfortable or as entertained at Greek Week, expecting that a lot of the activities or music at Greek Week wouldn't really be aimed at their culture. I guess Black Greek Week is something that would appeal to the crowd that a Black Greek Week would attract.

Again, I'm only guessing here. Maybe the groups who declined to go to Greek Week did so because they really felt like Greek Week wouldn't be for them. Instead, they decided to create something that would be for them. As I mentioned earlier about the TV networks, it really seems that this has to do with the name. Instead of calling it "Black Greek Week", what if they had called it something that had no reference to "black" in it? What if they had called it "Boogie Week" with the same activities and music they'd had at Black Greek Week? Would anyone really care?

[Pumpy Tudors]

IMO, anyone who is born in the US are just "American". But what is American really.(?) It is a mixture of races, cultures and ways of life. There are no "African-Americans" just like there isn't any Serbian-English Americans. If you are born in the US then you are an American. If you are born in Africa and then live in America (or become a US citizen) then you may be considered an African-American. Both my parents were born in different countries. My mother was born and raised in England and my father in Serbia. I don't go around telling everybody I am a Serbian-English American nor does anyone observe me that way even though I look european.

I refuse to call any black person an African American. If I start to do this I might as well start calling Jamaicans who live in the US "Jamaican-American" or a Japanese person who is a US citizen a "Japanese-American". Before you know it everyone will be labled a different name. I will not be aprt of that. It's an old saying but there is only one race and thats the human race. This is not to say I am against black people (or any other "race"). Actually I am far from it. I've dated black girls in high-school and one of them was a very serious.
I see where you're coming from, but can you see where it looks like you're projecting your feelings and ideals upon others? If you don't want to be called "Serbian-English-American", so be it. That doesn't mean that people who want to be called "African-American" shouldn't at least have other people consider respecting their wishes. Again, if you wish to argue the accuracy of that term, that's fine, but it's a different subject.

In addition, and correct me if I'm wrong, you also seem to be showing the attitude that I mentioned earlier. It's as if you want all black people to pick a term and go with it. We don't ALL want to be called "African-American." Hell, I don't care if you call me "African-American" or "black" or "negro" or "Hyacinth." It really doesn't matter to me, but not everybody feels that way. When you say that calling somebody an "African-American" might as well lead to you saying "Jamaican-American" or "Japanese-American", what does that really mean? Do you actually know people who want to be called "Jamaican-American" or "Japanese-American"? You're already bound to call some black people by terms they don't like, and now you're suggesting that if you did give in to them, you might as well go ahead and call Jamaicans and people of Japanese descent by names they don't like. Following that logic, you're following a pretty vicious circle there.

[Flasch186]

were the Non-bl;ack fraternities invited to black greek week? I think that would be silly if theyre not because I can tell you from experience that many times ethnic group's activities are much more fun than the "white" groups. For example, when I was in High School, I joined the black fraternity for a couple of reason: 1. they thought it was funny and so did I...but for me, more importantly 2. they did much cooler stuff.

[Danny]

Regarding not being willing to call someone African American, what happened to respect for individuals? If I know someone who would prefer that I refer to them as African American, I will do so out of respect to that person.

[Klinglerware]

As far as the Greek system goes, I would say that the separate Greek weeks are probably a by-product of historic exclusionary practices on the part of the established fraternities. It's obviously a lot better now, but before the 60s fraternities were not very welcoming to Jews and non-WASPs, let alone minorities. In his auto-biography, even Joe Paterno talks about not being admitted by one of the fraternities then at my alma mater back in the 40s because of his ethnicity.

These exclusionary practices probably led to the formation of "Black" fraternities in the first place. It is easily conceivable that seperate greek weeks are probably a lasting effect of the earlier discrimination. There probably isn't very much animosity between the "black" and "white" greek systems today, but the celebrations have long since evolved separately (i.e., they do different shit), so people don't seem to see a need to change things.

This reminds me of the phenomenon of seperate proms that still is going on in several high schools in the South. In almost every case, the school sanctioned prom is attended primarily by the non-white students, while white students plan their own prom off-site. I doubt that most of the white students consider this racist, but the attitude seems to be "well, this is always the way it's been, so no need to change things now". This is another example of (a) how self-segregation cuts both ways (b) it may not always be fair to criticize black people for segregating, when the roots of the segregation were in response to what white people were doing. For example white people were not letting black people into fraternities, so black people had to form their own; after public schools desegrated a lot of white students in the south fled to private schools, leaving school systems just as segregated as before. The whole prom thing is a manifestation of this too: how can you blame black people for the separate prom, when white students were the ones who deserted the real prom to organize their own?

[maximus]

Regarding not being willing to call someone African American, what happened to respect for individuals? If I know someone who would prefer that I refer to them as African American, I will do so out of respect to that person.


I will not appease someone just to appease them. They are not African-American if they are born in the US. Is that too hard to understand?

[maximus]

Maybe we should all start calling white Africans American-African. :confused:

[Klinglerware]

Maybe we should all start calling white Africans American-African. :confused:

Then your implication would be that "American = white". And most white citizens of African states are descendants of Europeans, not Americans...

[21C]

No offense to black people but they are segregating themselves eveday but yet they oppose segregation. :confused:

BET Channel
Black Stars channel
All black colleges
All black churches (yes, I have actually seen this)
*A few others I can think of right now as I haven't spelt for 24 hrs*
"African American" - this one really confuses me. If you are born here (in the US) then you are an American not African. If they want to go that route then I want to be refered to as a Serbian-English Amercian and if not - I will cry racism.
I know it's a typo but I couldn't help smiling at this.

[maximus]

Then your implication would be that "American = white". And most white citizens of African states are descendants of Europeans, not Americans...


Good point. I agree there. However, then we can all just assume that all blacks are Africans. This is also not the case as Haitians are of a darker skin as well as the Jamaicans. But again, what is American? Isn't an American basically a mixture of all races?

[NoMyths]

Good point. I agree there. However, then we can all just assume that all blacks are Africans. This is also not the case as Haitians are of a darker skin as well as the Jamaicans. But again, what is American? Isn't an American basically a mixture of all races?Not necessarily. But everyone born here is definitely an American by birth, if not by choice. If they choose to renounce that for another label, that's their bidness.

[maximus]

If they choose to renounce that for another label, that's their bidness.

Bidness? ;)

I agree but while they may "want" to be called an African-American I will still oppose it and not appease their request. This has nothing to do with respect as Danny puts it. It has to do with what the truth is. A black person who was born in the United States can say he is African-American but he will be lying to everyone he says this to. It simply and plainly isn't the truth or the case.

[NoMyths]

No, it doesn't have to do with what the "truth" is. And you're not qualified to be the arbiter of that "truth" anyway. A person of African ancestry born in the U.S. who wishes to identify themselves as African-American is as correct as if he or she simply wanted to be known as American. Same with Irish-Americans or Serbian-Americans or what have you. There are political and geographic issues at stake, and not simply racial ones.

[maximus]

No, it doesn't have to do with what the "truth" is. And you're not qualified to be the arbiter of that "truth" anyway. A person of African ancestry born in the U.S. who wishes to identify themselves as African-American is as correct as if he or she simply wanted to be known as American. Same with Irish-Americans or Serbian-Americans or what have you. There are political and geographic issues at stake, and not simply racial ones.


It has everything to do with what the truth is. The person is not African if he/she is born in America. Thats just the way it is. In fact, you just proved my whole point, "A person of African ancestry born in the U.S. who wishes to identify themselves as African-American is as correct as if he or she simply wanted to be known as American". Ok, I wish to identify myself as Chinese - I am a Chinese-American. Umm, doesn't that just sound silly? You see, just because someone "wishes" to identify themselves as something doesn't make it a fact, therefore the truth.

[NoMyths]

Nor do they call themselves simply "African". The hypenate implies a relationship between the two words, not the absence of either. In your example, unless you have Chinese ancestry and were born in America, while you might refer to yourself as Chinese-American there is little relationship to the ancestral truth. If you do have that ancestry, you may, and you'd be being specific. Look, nobody has a choice on what patch of the globe they're born, and if they want to honor other geographic ancestry than the one luck has deposited them into, there's little reason why they shouldn't be able to. You might as well argue that a person has no right to change his or her name.

[maximus]

Look, nobody has a choice on what patch of the globe they're born, and if they want to honor other geographic ancestry than the one luck has deposited them into, there's little reason why they shouldn't be able to. You might as well argue that a person has no right to change his or her name.

Oh, I understand that. But again, I have not and will not call them African-American. I may change this attitude towards that when they refer to me as Serbian-English-American and not as "white". I wonder when a "white" person will finally cry racism in a wrokplace for being refered to as "white" and not his geographical roots. ;) Oh wait, a "white" person would have nothing to stand on because the system in this country doesn't work that way.

[NoMyths]

Oh, I understand that. But again, I have not and will not call them African-American. I may change this attitude towards that when they refer to me as Serbian-English-American and not as "white". I wonder when a "white" person will finally cry racism in a wrokplace for being refered to as "white" and not his geographical roots. ;) Oh wait, a "white" person would have nothing to stand on because the system in this country doesn't work that way.But you're still (willfully) missing the point: if your ancestry is Serbian-English, and you want people to refer to your racial background in that way, let them know that's what you would like. People who respect such matters (unlike, um, the position you're perpetrating) will do so.

Part of the problem is that you're boiling it down into the racist argument -- that "white" actually has some useful defining characteristic. It doesn't, any more than "black" does. In my experience, it depends on the context in which "black" is used for it to become a pejorative term. But truthfully -- since that's what you indicate you'd like to get to -- there's almost no such thing as a "white" person, and absolutely no way to prove if anyone actually is such a creature.

Me, I'm an American. White? Not exactly, although I'd certainly be called white by anyone who met me. But I have no problem referring to folks by whatever term they wish, within reason. :)

[Pumpy Tudors]

Oh, I understand that. But again, I have not and will not call them African-American. I may change this attitude towards that when they refer to me as Serbian-English-American and not as "white". I wonder when a "white" person will finally cry racism in a wrokplace for being refered to as "white" and not his geographical roots. ;) Oh wait, a "white" person would have nothing to stand on because the system in this country doesn't work that way.
Do you want to be called Serbian-English-American? Listen, you can call people anything you want to, but it sounds like you don't want any black people to call themselves African-American. As for everything you've said above after the "Serbian-English-American" part, that seems like an unnecessary shot in this discussion. Again, if we want to talk about the accuracy and definition of the term "African-American", that's fine, but now you're projecting that issue onto how it affects what you're called. I'm sure that there's a path that connects those two things, but we haven't even stepped on it yet, much less gone all the way over it.

So before I try to take this any further, what would you like to be called?

[Suicane75]

I would like to be called Betty.

[NoMyths]

I would like to be called Betty.Nicknames are easy, but you'll need to file appropriate paperwork to officially enact your will. :)

[maximus]

But you're still (willfully) missing the point: if your ancestry is Serbian-English, and you want people to refer to your racial background in that way, let them know that's what you would like. People who respect such matters (unlike, um, the position you're perpetrating) will do so.

Part of the problem is that you're boiling it down into the racist argument -- that "white" actually has some useful defining characteristic. It doesn't, any more than "black" does. In my experience, it depends on the context in which "black" is used for it to become a pejorative term. But truthfully -- since that's what you indicate you'd like to get to -- there's almost no such thing as a "white" person, and absolutely no way to prove if anyone actually is such a creature.

Me, I'm an American. White? Not exactly, although I'd certainly be called white by anyone who met me. But I have no problem referring to folks by whatever term they wish, within reason. :)

NoMyths, I think my problem is that I see these things such as the BET channel *just* for example. People call this a celabration of ethnic cultures. Really? If there was a WET (W=White) channel then man, the minorities would call that a racist move by all white folk. If we had a month called "White History Month" we would be deemed racist yet again. Do I think white people should have these things? No, not at all. But if we did have such things "celebrating" us being white then all hell would break loose. I advocate zero segregation where there are no months or channels dedicated to ones race. To me, thats just pathetic that it is like this. I understand that I can't change the world but I choose not to be apart of the segregation set by "what I belive" some black people have presented. It's funny because there are black people who actually agree with me.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I am thoroughly convinced that there is nothing more I can say here.

[Suicane75]

It's funny because there are black people who actually agree with me.
Funny ha ha?

[maximus]

Do you want to be called Serbian-English-American? Listen, you can call people anything you want to, but it sounds like you don't want any black people to call themselves African-American. As for everything you've said above after the "Serbian-English-American" part, that seems like an unnecessary shot in this discussion. Again, if we want to talk about the accuracy and definition of the term "African-American", that's fine, but now you're projecting that issue onto how it affects what you're called. I'm sure that there's a path that connects those two things, but we haven't even stepped on it yet, much less gone all the way over it.

So before I try to take this any further, what would you like to be called?


I am an American, thats it. I am, however, very proud of my roots but I would never expect to be called anything but American.

Pumpy, would you agree that about 50% or more of the black population would expect some type of payment (or tax free living) for past slavery? What about the kings in the African countries who sold the black people into slavery. Should those same African countries also pay the "African-American" people some type of payment for the slavery?

[maximus]

I am thoroughly convinced that there is nothing more I can say here.


Yeah, I think I am done on this subject myself.

[timmynausea]

Minority cultures are celebrated because they are not necessarily part of the mainstream culture. If you want a White Entertainment Channel check out TNN or Spike TV or Superstation or etc.

[NoMyths]

I am thoroughly convinced that there is nothing more I can say here.I find your idea intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Neon_Chaos]

I would like to be called Betty.

Birdie. Birdie. Birdie. Hmmmm.... Tiger. Tiger. Tiger. Red Shirt! BLUE SHIRT! Red Shirt! BLUE SHIRT!

(if I'm right. :) )

[Klinglerware]

Maximus, I don't understand how BET has anything to do with self segregation. It is all about business and all about catering to unmet demand. Many minority people believe that network TV doesn't produce enough television that has relevance to them--this seems plausible since TV is usually produced to appeal to mass, not targeted audiences.

Whether black people are justified in feeling this way in your eyes, this being America, it is still their prerogative. It was also the prerogative of the businessman (Robert Johnson, I believe), to recognize that a perceived need (entertainment that would appeal to black people) that was not already met. So he founded BET and made a hell of a lot of money and God bless America, money (and again, getting shut out of the mainstream) not a sense of racist priide is what drove BET. To recap:

1. Black people want entertainment that's relevant to them, and that's their prerogative
2. Network TV won't produce that enternmaint, and that's their prerogative
3. Someone else (Robert Johnson) offers to provide a service to provide #1, and the marketplace rewards him

That sounds like capitalism to me, not racial pride...

[Klinglerware]

I advocate zero segregation where there are no months or channels dedicated to ones race.

DOLA--

Would you extend this to religious belief? People's religious identification is just as important to people (if not more) than their ethnic identification. To extend your logic, we would have to get rid of Christmas and Hannukah since only certain segments of the population celebrate each holiday. Perhaps we could replace those holidays with a generic "Winter Solstice" holiday, or we could just celebrate New Year's instead, just like the Soviets did...

[HomerJSimpson]

You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear

[Blackadar]

Actually, I tend to agree with Maximus. I don't like - and have stopped - calling blacks African-American. I think the term is technically incorrect and generally unnecessary. Given evolution, we could all call ourselves African-American.

[Flasch186]

What, you think Im a clown, funny? Do I amuse you?

[oliegirl]

DOLA--

Would you extend this to religious belief? People's religious identification is just as important to people (if not more) than their ethnic identification. To extend your logic, we would have to get rid of Christmas and Hannukah since only certain segments of the population celebrate each holiday. Perhaps we could replace those holidays with a generic "Winter Solstice" holiday, or we could just celebrate New Year's instead, just like the Soviets did...

I think religion is different because it does not take away from the fact that you are, an American and only an American if you were born in America. Also, people don't ask to be called Catholic-Americans, Lutheran-Americans, Baptist-Americans, etc...

I would like to state that even though I see where Maximus is coming from and agree with him that if you were born in America you are an American, I would never refuse to refer to someone as African American if that was their wish.

As for the Greek Week issue, yes - all the minority fraternities and sororities were invited. It was my experience that their celebration was very similar to ours - a pagent of some sort, a lot of parties, etc.

These exclusionary practices probably led to the formation of "Black" fraternities in the first place. It is easily conceivable that seperate greek weeks are probably a lasting effect of the earlier discrimination. There probably isn't very much animosity between the "black" and "white" greek systems today, but the celebrations have long since evolved separately (i.e., they do different shit), so people don't seem to see a need to change things.

You may be right in why it started this way, but again - my initial point was this - now that you are being asked to be included, why not participate in the "official, school recognized" Greek Week event? Why continue to separate yourselves as a group? I think the attitude of "this is how it's always been done so why change it" is horrible. If we as a country don't change things, we will never grow and racism will continue to divide us on some level, as it does now. I think that now, years after the Civil Rights Movement, and after years of being asked to participate, it's time to be a part of "Greek Week" and forget about "Black Greek Week". Why is there still a need to be separate?

[cuervo72]

I would like to be called Betty.

Betty, you can call me Al.

[st.cronin]

I've never been convinced of the benefits of celebrating one's racial/ethnic identity. For one thing, racial/ethnic identities have no real meaning. What is Irish in one generation is Icelandic in the next; a Korean most likely has Chinese ancestry; etc.

I advocate the celebration of culture, not ethnicity. I will happily discuss this with an interested party when the topic comes up.

But if somebody objects to being described as 'black' or 'african-american' or 'american' or 'native american' ... common courtesty suggests I respect their wishes, even while cheerfully engaging them on the specific philosophy behind their desire.

[Klinglerware]

I would like to state that even though I see where Maximus is coming from and agree with him that if you were born in America you are an American

I see your and Maximus' point, too. I agree that if you are born in America, you are an American. However you are naive to believe that all people see our minorities this way. As Maximus' freudian slip suggests, when people picture an "American" they most likely will picture a white person, not the Benetton ad that Maximum suggests.

For example, if you met a guy with Asian physical features on a city street somewhere in America, and ask him where he's from and he says "Connecticut", I'll bet that there will be quite a few people who wouldn't expect that answer and will continue by asking "No seriously, where are you really from?"

I really do wish that people wouldn't be so hung up on race, either. But we have a long way to go and it really pissed me off that there are a lot of people in our country, whose families may have been here for generations, that are still having a hard time convincing people that they are real Americans. Some people will never be American enough in some peoples' eyes, and that pisses me off.


why not participate in the "official, school recognized" Greek Week event?

http://www.homevideos.com/freezeframes6/animalhouse484.jpeg

And be tools of the administration? :D

[Jesse_Ewiak]

All of you do realize the major reason that there are 'historically black' colleges, almost all black churches, and other things such as that is because for a large portion of American history, the vast majority of minorities couldn't get accepted into the 'normal' school or church system. Try being African-American in 1920 and showing up at the local Methodist/Baptist whatever church and see what happens in a large portion of the country.

[rkmsuf]

I would like to be called Betty.


And you can call me Al.

[oliegirl]

And you can call me Al.

Thanks to you guys I had that song stuck in my head the entire 2 1/2 hours I was out at the pool!!!