Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince *spoilers inside*

[Airhog]

Now that Ive finished reading the book I must say, this has taken a bit of a turn. I always thought there was something wrong with snape, but I couldnt believe he killed Dumbledore. And the fact that he was the half blooded prince.


Overall, I thought the book was a bit sluggish. It didnt seem to advance the plot of the overall series enough I thought. I also thought that they really narrowed down the important characters in this book.

I do wonder what kind of appearance that Draco will make in the final book. And of course, if Dumbledore really was killed, or he comes back like spock did in star trek :D

[terpkristin]

Alright, if this is the spoiler version of this thread...

I (and others, I belive) think RAB is Regulus Black, Sirius' brother. Could this knowledge of his be part of the reason Snape hated Sirius so much, because he knew Voldemort did?

I assume, then, that in book 7, Harry will find the REAL locket in 12 Grimuald Place, provided Mundungus didn't take THAT too. Hence I think book 7 has a real shot of having Mundungus feature more prominently, especially if there are any other horcruxes hidden in Sirius' old place...

I really do wonder what will happen to Draco. Obviously, he didn't exactly do what Voldemort asked him to do, and Snape had to bail him out...I don't think that will exactly "please" Voldemort.

Based on what Harry has left to do in book 7 (find 4 horcruxes and fight Voldemort in a final show-down), I imagine 7 will be quite a bit longer than expected.

Now, for what was said at Mugglenet (http://www.mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/book6facts.shtml) in terms of "facts" and rumors about books 6 and 7 (my comments in red)...




We will learn a lot more about Voldemort in this book.
Yes, yes we did. We know more about Voldemort's past than we do Harry's!!
HBP will be an intense book, but with light-hearted moments.
OK, I agree. Mostly dark with some funny times...
Harry will leave Privet Drive early again, for a "much pleasanter" reason than in book 5.
Yep, this is true.
The opening chapter of book 6 was originally planned for the early parts of book 1, perhaps we get a more in-depth story of what happened the night Harry's parents died.
Obviously, we didn't get this "in-depth story" of what happened. The opening chapter of book 6 would have been fine in book 3 (Prisoner of Azkaban), in my opinion, as it was sort of out of place in HBP.


Neither Harry or Voldemort (including Tom Riddle) are the Half-Blood Prince
Duh. I never thought they were. I actually thought Snape had a good possibility of being him before the book came out, though I was leaning towards one of the kids (like Seamus or Dean).
Arthur Weasley will not be the new Minister of Magic
Duh again. Interesting that the new Minister is somebody we've never heard of.
By the ends of books 6 and 7 "you'll have all the back story you'll need", says JK Rowling, and a prequel will not be necessary
Um, ok. :)
There will be a new Minister of Magic, no more Mr. Fudge.
See above comment under "Arthur Weasly..."
We will find out what happened to Hagrid's half brother Grawp. He will be a bit more controllable in book 6.
I guess, though Grawp was really not part of the story here in book 6. Maybe he'll play a more prominent role in book 7, but I somehow doubt it. If you remember from book 5, the other giants didn't care much for him because he was smaller than they were.
The Dursleys are in the next book, but Harry's stay with them will be the shortest yet. In book 5 he stayed for 4 weeks, so we know his stay will be less than 4 weeks.
Yep.
Cho Chang will not be a romantic interest of Harry in Book 6, however there will be a "little romance" for Harry says JK.
Who didn't see Harry's romance with Ginny coming? Who thinks it'll re-ignite in book 7, even though he's pushed Ginny away for now?
In books 6 and 7 we will find out exactly why JK killed off Sirius.
Didn't figure it out in book 6, guess we'll have to wait for book 7. Unless it was solely so Harry could inherit his house and thus his posessions which likely include a horcrux (maybe more than one?)...
Harry becomes even more powerful in book 6.
He's become more powerful in every book, this seems like a no-brainer.
In books 6 and 7 we will find out why Dumbledore trusts Snape.
I suppose we found out SOMEWHAT why in book 6, but boy do I hope this is resolved in book 7. I felt that the entire "old mans mistakes" and "too trusting bit" were a bit of a wash-over.
We will find out what happened to Wormtail AKA Peter Pettigrew
Again, I hope we find out more about what happened, other than him just going to live with Snape...
More about the animosity between Snape and Sirius will be revealed in the last 2 books.
I hope it's revealed in book 7, didn't get much of a feeling for it in book 6.
JK has said that giving away the form of Snape's boggart and patronus says too much. We'll definitely find out what Snape's worst fear is, and it'll be important.
I think this must be a book 7 thing.
Hermione and Draco will NOT end up together in book 6 or 7.
Well isn't that a relief? ;)
We will find out what exactly Dudley saw when he looked at the dementors.
Didn't find it out in 6, hopefully that will come out in 7. What could a kid like Dudley be consciously afraid of?
The reason Voldemort and Harry both didn't die when Voldemort tried to kill Harry, will be revealed.
Never really thought about this one. Is there some reason other than the love bit?
We will see more of Draco's mother, Narcissa Malfoy, now that Lucius is busy.
Guess we did see a bit of her, but again, I wonder what's going to happen to Draco.
We'll learn more about Harry's scar in the last 2 books.
I didn't think there was much particularly revealed about it in book 6.
Moaning Myrtle will make an appearance again, as will Tonks.
I love both of these characters. :)
More about Voldemort's birth will be revealed, thus helping us understand why he is so evil.
Book 6 gives a lot of background, but no real reason for him being evil other than it's just his personality, in my opinion...
Muggles begin to notice "more and more odd" occurrences in book 6, says JK.
Yep.
The wizarding world is really at war in the sixth book.
Yep.
Harry will tell his dearest friends about the prophesy after it sinks in to him.
Yep.
We will learn more about Harry's relatives, including his grandparents (though JK says they aren't really important to the story)
Guess that's for book 7.
We will find out what happened to Sirius's motorbike.
Guess that will happen in book 7, too. I assume this means we'll find out what happened to it AFTER he lent it to Hagrid, because it's revealed in book 3 that Sirius lent Hagrid his bike to get Harry to safety.
Book 6 will be shorter than the 5th book (or at least JK's 99% sure, but will not swear on her children's lives)
Yep. It was a bit shorter.
There will be no "new" nationalities of children at Hogwarts. Hogwarts is a British school, and JK says that adding foreigners for the sake of it is not in her plans.
Not sure where this came from.
During an interview, when JKR was asked in which Hogwarts room she'd like to be for 1 hour, she said it would be a room in which Harry has been before, but doesn't know its importance. Yet. (this could have happened in book 5, but we're unsure)
Could this be the Room of Requirement?
It's very important in the plot that Harry has his mother's eyes, and that her wand was very good for charms.
I'm intrigued by this. Especially because it didn't come up too much in book 6, except that Lily was also good at potions (at least according to Slug)
So yeah. :) Feel free to discuss/disparage. :) My mom and sister still haven't started it (well, I guess my sister STARTED it but only just), so I'm looking for others to discuss it with. :D

/tk

[Bearcat729]

I believe that Draco will be punished in book 7 for failing his task. I also believe that Voldemort will give him another task that will cause him to go honest like Regulus Black did.

I want to believe that RAB is Regulus but for some reason it just seems too easy. It feels like a bait and switch.

Something I did read on a message board about the horcrux issue and the fact that there is one item we do not know about(Gryffindor) is what if Harry is the final horcrux. They play up the Voldemort transfered part of himself to you in the first 5 books. So it seems possible.

[Airhog]

Do you think Harry will be persuaded to return to hogwarts in book 7?

I think it is likely that Draco is killed in book 7. I dont think JK has specifically said that another character would die, but he does have to best chance. Although I do remember hearing that one of the major characters would die by the books end, and maybe dumbledore was it. He was my favorite character in the book, but I think he really needed to be killed off. I dont think the story would have been right had he lived in book 7.

It was almost too obvious for snape to have killed Dumbledore. Especially if you look at all of the signs in all of the other books about him being evil. I really just cannot get past that bit. I honestly thought that Hagrid would be killed, but he's never been an important character IMO.

Who will be the next defense of the dark arts teacher? That assumes that Harry makes it back for his last year.

[terpkristin]

You know the thing that gets me about Dumbledore?
There was a line in the first book where Dumbledore told Professor McGonagall that he'd trust Hagrid with his life. I assumed that if he died, then, that somehow Hagrid would have been there or otherwise tried to save him. Or that Hagrid would give his life to save Dumbledore.

I doubt Dumbledore will come back as a ghost (just doesn't seem likely) but I still wonder what Dumbledore touched to burn his hand..

/tk

[Vince]

TK -- he said it was the ring of Slytherin. Destroying that horcrux burned his hand.

[terpkristin]

Damn. I must have glossed over that part.
Oh well, thanks! :)

/tk

[Coffee Warlord]

The key portion, Snape's betrayal, was REALLY under-explained. Dumbledore is still too wise in his own right to simply use the tad that was explained for his reasons for trusting Snape.

Unless of course, he was under direct orders...from Dumbledore to kill Dumbledore, thusly cementing him with Voldemort for Harry's final battle. Heh.

[Bearcat729]

The key portion, Snape's betrayal, was REALLY under-explained. Dumbledore is still too wise in his own right to simply use the tad that was explained for his reasons for trusting Snape.

Unless of course, he was under direct orders...from Dumbledore to kill Dumbledore, thusly cementing him with Voldemort for Harry's final battle. Heh.


I think that the Snape thing will be explained more in the next book. I also have to believe that Snape and Harry will face off once more.

[Barkeep49]

My friend has speculated, and I think this is a good one, that Snape was indeed under orders from Dumbledoor to kill Dumbledoor if push came to shove. In this way Draco Malfoy's soul could perhaps still be saved, something DD seemed intent on perserving.

My problem is that, sure Harry is powerful, but it seems as though numerous wizards totally outclass him. Even with Ron and Hermoine at his side, I just don't see him being someone that would be much of a challenge for more competent wizards.

This book was a let down. Far too many pages were wasted giving Voldemort's background. Was it nice? Sure. Was it a major revelation worth the time it was given? Not so much.

This book felt as unnecessary as Goblet of Fire, without nearly as good of an ending. I continue to believe that Order of the Phoenix was the best, followed by Azkaban, Sorcer's Stone, Fire, and Secrets.

[Tigercat]

It seems to me that Snape had to kill Dumbledore as part of his "Unbreakable vow." Could he have not done it and have died himself and instead took the selfish way out, him instead of Dumbledore? Possible. I wonder if Snape perhaps thought he was strong enough to break the vow, but somehow the vow magically forced him to do the act?

Regardless I think anyone who thinks Snape has been and still is pure evil death eater is going to miss the mark. From this book alone, I think Snape's conversation at the begining of the book with the death eaters obviously outs him as not one. I don't even think he knew what Draco was up to, another reason he agreed to the vow. He was just saying that the Dark Lord told him the mission. In reality in HBP we are told that Voldy doesn't confide in anyone unless he has to. In other words Snape lied to get information for the order. Perhaps he never figured out Draco's mission was to kill Dumbledore until after he made the vow? I would assume as soon as Draco got close to Snape and had those discussions with Snape that Snape read his mind and knew Dumbledore was his target. He then went to Dumbledore with the information. Perhaps thats an added reason that Dumbledore stayed away from the school a good bit in this book(besides hunting down the objects), so that Snape would never be in a position to have to carry out Draco's mission?

[ISiddiqui]

The reason Voldemort and Harry both didn't die when Voldemort tried to kill Harry, will be revealed.
Never really thought about this one. Is there some reason other than the love bit?

Yeah, Voldemort didn't die because of horcruxes! :D

This book was a let down. Far too many pages were wasted giving Voldemort's background. Was it nice? Sure. Was it a major revelation worth the time it was given? Not so much.

This book felt as unnecessary as Goblet of Fire, without nearly as good of an ending. I continue to believe that Order of the Phoenix was the best, followed by Azkaban, Sorcer's Stone, Fire, and Secrets.
That's funny, because GoF and this one are tied for my 2nd place behind PoA. :D I enjoy the character building books, personally. OotP is somewhere in the mix, but personally I felt it was too long to be my fav. Chop a couple hundred pages from it and it'd work better.


I also have a feeling that Snape was acting under Dumbledore orders and when Dumbledore pleadingly says "Severus", what he is pleading for is that Snape kills him and continues his spying activity. In the choice to do what is right and what is easy, Dumbledore (and Snape) choose what is right... Voldemort is end prize.

[Katon]

I also have a feeling that Snape was acting under Dumbledore orders and when Dumbledore pleadingly says "Severus", what he is pleading for is that Snape kills him and continues his spying activity. In the choice to do what is right and what is easy, Dumbledore (and Snape) choose what is right... Voldemort is end prize.

I agree - especially considering the timing of the plea. Dumbledore starts pleading nearly as soon as Snape walks in the door, and BEFORE Snape actually does anything. If he still thinks Snape is on the side of good - and nothing's happened to suggest otherwise when Dumbledore first speaks up - then there's no reason to plead for his life. This is especially true since Dumbledore has never seemed frightened of death before, and was calling himself "expendable" when discussing who ought to drink the potion. The only thing he would plead for Snape to do at that point would be to kill him, because that's the one thing a good Snape really wouldn't want to do.

[terpkristin]

Yeah, Voldemort didn't die because of horcruxes! ../../%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Ah, I meant, I never really thought about them BOTH dying. Love for Harry and horcruxes for Voldemort, but I never even remotely considered them both dying (especially given the prophecy in book 5).

/tk

[ntndeacon]

Snape is gonna have a heck of a time relaying any info he gets from the other side. Most on the side of good would want to kill him on sight. At the very least they would perform the perfect immobilation charm.

On another note. Did any one else take note of Dumbledore offering deathto Draco and his mother if they switched to good.

[Coffee Warlord]

Snape is gonna have a heck of a time relaying any info he gets from the other side. Most on the side of good would want to kill him on sight. At the very least they would perform the perfect immobilation charm.

My line of thinking goes something like this, if we assume for a moment, Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him if a situation like this occurred.

Snape is being set up so he is at Voldemort's right hand during the moment of truth, so Snape can (somehow) betray Voldemort and give Harry the exact edge he needs to defeat Voldy, at just the right time.

[Bearcat729]

On another note. Did any one else take note of Dumbledore offering deathto Draco and his mother if they switched to good.


I've seen that this is supposedly different in the British text compared to the American.

However the way I read into it was that Dumbledore offered to fake Draco and and his parents death.

[Coffee Warlord]

However the way I read into it was that Dumbledore offered to fake Draco and and his parents death.

Ditto that.

....which ya know what. What's to say they DIDN'T fake Dumbledore's death?

[Bearcat729]

Ditto that.

....which ya know what. What's to say they DIDN'T fake Dumbledore's death?


Its possible. I tend to believe that since Dumbledore's picture went up on the wall in the headmasters office that he is dead.

I do wonder why his picture didn't speak when they were talking about closing the school and sending the kids home early in the end of the book. All the other pictures of former headmasters are able to talk and give opinons when needed.

[Tigercat]

That is an interesting thought (Dumbledores picture not talking) and may point the possibility of him not being dead. We have only seen pictures of the dead really able to carry on conversations(and perform complex actions via other pictures/paintings), while pictures of the living seem to just move around and make the occational noise.

[gkb]

I'm not convinced Dumbledore is dead either. Snape is obviously a very skilled wizard and perhaps he cast a different spell than the one he verbalized. One of his parting shots at Harry, "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!", might be a hint about what really happened (and some excellent advice for Harry regardless).

[Celeval]

Interesting theories re: Dumbledore. But wouldn't Snape's Unbreakable vow prevent that?

I also think Snape is still honest, due to careful reading of his finale - iirc, it states that Snape's look is (something to the effect of) "hatred and revulsion" - but why revulsion? Who does he have to be revolted at.. other than himself, when it comes down to it, being forced by the Unbreakable Vow to kill DD; much as Harry felt when feeding DD the potion?

[ISiddiqui]

I think Dumbledore is dead. I don't think he comes back. It'd be cheap for him to come to life, IMO. And as Celeval mentioned, Snape's Unbreakable Vow means he has to kill Dumbledore or else Snape dies.

Btw, my prediction (which has been bitterly contested in other forums) is that Harry dies at the end. He makes the ultimate sacrifice. I can't see him continue to live a 'normal' life after Voldemort dies and the way to avoid that is to kill off the last Potter.

[Airhog]

It does make sense to have dumbledore die. If you think about it, he would just get in the way of harry in the last book, since he is much more powerful...

[Airhog]

dola, but look at all of the symbols of life at the end. The pheonix was there, and I can't shake the feeling that this meant something...

[Bearcat729]

I think Dumbledore is dead. I don't think he comes back. It'd be cheap for him to come to life, IMO. And as Celeval mentioned, Snape's Unbreakable Vow means he has to kill Dumbledore or else Snape dies.

Btw, my prediction (which has been bitterly contested in other forums) is that Harry dies at the end. He makes the ultimate sacrifice. I can't see him continue to live a 'normal' life after Voldemort dies and the way to avoid that is to kill off the last Potter.


I don't want to believe that she would kill Harry off. I could easily see Hary living a somewhat normal life almost in the Dumbledore role at Hogwarts.

That being said I wouldn't put anything past Rowling, and it would be the ultimate twist.

As for all the signs that point to Dumbledore possibly being alive. She had to put those in just for debate. I can't see how Dumbledore survived.

[kserra]

Good book. I really like the 4th-5th-6th installments most.

This would rank third among those however, due to too much time discussing the romantic trappings of our favorite characters. I understand that it may have been necessary, and it wasn't a waste of time, I just could have done with less of it.

On top of that, how many more times will people continue to discount Harry's suspicions?

The last hundred pages were great, and I plan on re-reading them again soon. I'd expect the 7th book would have the same action, drama, and revealing moments throughout.

To me, it seems like Harry has to make a big jump in the 7th book. He's going to go from a child, protected by many, to a hunter, seeking revenge and justice against all those who have wronged him and those he's loved...

I think this transformation can be done, I'll just be very interested to see how Rowlings goes about it. To me, this is key, and Harry needs to turn darker and more aggressive to succesfully pull off his task--finding the hidden souls of Voldy and then killing the man himself.

Snape...that will be interesting...I kept expecting DD to wake up...that there was no way Snape would have done this...this NEEDS to be spelled out better in book 7...

Anyways, great book...now my wife is about to read it...I'll be interested to see her reactions. It's a fun book to share, and certainly a much needed "spell" from the grind of adulthood and the working life.

Kevin

[ISiddiqui]

I don't want to believe that she would kill Harry off. I could easily see Hary living a somewhat normal life almost in the Dumbledore role at Hogwarts.

That being said I wouldn't put anything past Rowling, and it would be the ultimate twist.

As for all the signs that point to Dumbledore possibly being alive. She had to put those in just for debate. I can't see how Dumbledore survived.
Yeah, that's the reason I think it'll happen. The twists have been getting bolder and bolder as the series goes on and this would be the final twist in the series, so it's gotta be massive. It may not happen, but I think it will.

I also think the pressure on Rowling for a sequal if Harry survives will be immense. You get rid of two birds with one stone by killing off Harry.

On top of that, how many more times will people continue to discount Harry's suspicions?
Remember, Harry's suspicions in OotP resulted in Sirius' death. So he's not perfect in that regard.

To me, it seems like Harry has to make a big jump in the 7th book. He's going to go from a child, protected by many, to a hunter, seeking revenge and justice against all those who have wronged him and those he's loved...
Yeah, I'm interested to see how he does that as well. Especially after getting ONE horcrux (or fake horcrux) weakened Dumbledore to the point that a weaker wizard would have probably died. Harry isn't even close to Dumbledore's power. How is that going to work?

And he'll have to kill... I'd assume. But can Harry really say the Unforgivable Curses?

[Vince]

Well, I think Harry's relentless pursuit and 'obsession' with Draco was supposed to hint towards the beginning of that 'hunter' mentality. I was a little disappointed that NO ONE (especially Ron and Hermione) seemed to be willing to help him, after all the crap that the Death Eaters, and especially Lucius Malfoy himself, had done already. Didn't seem too believable to me.

EDIT to clarify -- because of the end, I understand why DD didn't really do anything...he expected/knew about it all along. But Ron and Hermione (at least in my opinion) should have been a little more willing to believe that Malfoy was up to no good.

[Bearcat729]

Yeah, that's the reason I think it'll happen. The twists have been getting bolder and bolder as the series goes on and this would be the final twist in the series, so it's gotta be massive. It may not happen, but I think it will.

I also think the pressure on Rowling for a sequal if Harry survives will be immense. You get rid of two birds with one stone by killing off Harry.

Yeah, I'm interested to see how he does that as well. Especially after getting ONE horcrux (or fake horcrux) weakened Dumbledore to the point that a weaker wizard would have probably died. Harry isn't even close to Dumbledore's power. How is that going to work?

And he'll have to kill... I'd assume. But can Harry really say the Unforgivable Curses?


There is going to be pressure to continue the stories no matter what. The Harry Potter books could spawn just like the Star Wars novels if she would let them.

I wonder how Harry thinks he will be able to do this. There is no way that someone like Mrs Weasley allows Ron to go off with Harry to potential death, I would believe Hermione's parents would be the same way. Not to mention that apparently these three would have no idea how to get around some of the enchantments guarding the horcruxes(Harry struggled to remember how to fight off the inferi despite Dumbledore telling him a few moments earlier)

Something tells me that at the wedding a large group of the OOTP if not every one of them will go off to aid Harry in his quest.

[ISiddiqui]

There is going to be pressure to continue the stories no matter what. The Harry Potter books could spawn just like the Star Wars novels if she would let them.

I wonder how Harry thinks he will be able to do this. There is no way that someone like Mrs Weasley allows Ron to go off with Harry to potential death, I would believe Hermione's parents would be the same way. Not to mention that apparently these three would have no idea how to get around some of the enchantments guarding the horcruxes(Harry struggled to remember how to fight off the inferi despite Dumbledore telling him a few moments earlier)

Something tells me that at the wedding a large group of the OOTP if not every one of them will go off to aid Harry in his quest.
It'll be like the Fellowship! ;)

As for pressure on Rowling. I think there will be faaaar less pressure if Harry dies. And in that case, will allow her to give spin-offs to other writers without eliciting howls of protest from the fans.

[Airhog]

It might be nice if she wrote the final book in a different way. Maybe something like the book "The stand" Where there are several groups, and each group has a few chapters.

[AZSpeechCoach]

I see this as something like the break between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Much like Luke continued his training in secret, I see Harry spending time making himself more powerful (prehaps at the Black house). I also see the picture of Dumbledore being like the spirit of Obi-Wan, as a guide and advisor, while not being able to interfere.

[JeeberD]

I'm in the group that thinks that DD made Snape kill him...I'm not convinced that Snape is evil. Of course, like other have mentioned, it's gonna be hard for him to contribute when the entire Order wants him dead now.


I assume, then, that in book 7, Harry will find the REAL locket in 12 Grimuald Place, provided Mundungus didn't take THAT too. Hence I think book 7 has a real shot of having Mundungus feature more prominently, especially if there are any other horcruxes hidden in Sirius' old place...

There was a mention of "a heavy, old locket that none of them could open" in OotP when they were all cleaning out the sitting room. I bet you that Kreacher stole it from them and has it hidden away somewhere...will he obey his new master and give it to Harry if he asks? Also, RAB almost certainly has to be Regulus Black...

[Bearcat729]

I'm in the group that thinks that DD made Snape kill him...I'm not convinced that Snape is evil. Of course, like other have mentioned, it's gonna be hard for him to contribute when the entire Order wants him dead now.



There was a mention of "a heavy, old locket that none of them could open" in OotP when they were all cleaning out the sitting room. I bet you that Kreacher stole it from them and has it hidden away somewhere...will he obey his new master and give it to Harry if he asks? Also, RAB almost certainly has to be Regulus Black...


Someone on the Mugglenet boards pointed out that one of the possibilities that it is Regulus is that to cross the pool of water you couldn't have more than 1 wizard in the boat, which means that Kreacher probably could have made it past with him.

It still seems like it is too easy for her to go with him as the guy who stole the locket, but all the signs are pointing towards Regulus.

[terpkristin]

Mugglenet has been insanely slow for me, so I haven't been frequenting over there as much...

That said, I thought of something else that stuck out to me and didn't "get," was wondering if any of y'all did. In the chapter, "The Secret Riddle," why was the mouth organ significant? It was one of the items that the young Voldemort/Tom Riddle had stolen while at the orphanage, but then at the end of the chapter Harry asks about it. Was wondering if there was some symbolism to the mouth organ or something otherwise important about it that I'd missed...

/tk

[ISiddiqui]

Kreacher may not have it. I have a feeling that perhaps Mundungus may have stolen it and sold it to someone else... maybe even back to the Death Eaters.

[JeeberD]

Mugglenet has been insanely slow for me, so I haven't been frequenting over there as much...

That said, I thought of something else that stuck out to me and didn't "get," was wondering if any of y'all did. In the chapter, "The Secret Riddle," why was the mouth organ significant? It was one of the items that the young Voldemort/Tom Riddle had stolen while at the orphanage, but then at the end of the chapter Harry asks about it. Was wondering if there was some symbolism to the mouth organ or something otherwise important about it that I'd missed...

/tk

You're basically asking the same thing that Harry asked. :D

Harry expected to see the mouth organ after that trip into the pensieve because he saw the ring on DD's desk after the first trip. DD said that the mouth organ was just a mouth organ...while the ring, obviously, was much, much more. So in other words, there was a reason for DD to have the ring...but no reason for him to have the organ. Make sense?

[terpkristin]

NO! ;)

I guess I was expecting a more complex meaning to the mouth organ. I mean, I always assumed that that item would never be something brought back again, it wasn't TR/Voldy's to begin with, so I assumed he gave it back to its owner as Dumbledore instructed...

/tk

[TRO]

There is going to be pressure to continue the stories no matter what. The Harry Potter books could spawn just like the Star Wars novels if she would let them.

I wonder how Harry thinks he will be able to do this. There is no way that someone like Mrs Weasley allows Ron to go off with Harry to potential death, I would believe Hermione's parents would be the same way. Not to mention that apparently these three would have no idea how to get around some of the enchantments guarding the horcruxes(Harry struggled to remember how to fight off the inferi despite Dumbledore telling him a few moments earlier)

Something tells me that at the wedding a large group of the OOTP if not every one of them will go off to aid Harry in his quest.
Hermione and Ron are both 17 now and of age, there is nothing their parents can do really if they want to help Harry.

[wbatl1]

The murder of somebody on the 'good' side was much, much too obvious with the Unbreakable Vow. However, I thought the person Draco and then Snape were to kill was Harry.

[Bearcat729]

There is a very interesting interview on Mugglenet (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview2.shtml)

[ISiddiqui]

Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the heads up!

[JeeberD]

Thanks, I didn't know that part 2 was up yet...

[OldGiants]

Okay, I know you'll all disagree, but reread the end of chapter 27 from the perspective I'm outlining.

Dumbledore arrives at the tower in terrible shape. In fact, he's dying and is beyond all magical help. He's got the withered hand and is staggered by the potion, which is every bit as powerful as he dreaded. Harry wants to get Madame Pomfrey from the hospital but Dumbledore says "It is...Professor Snape whom I need."

Then there is the explanation of Snape healing Malfoy and others to justify the need for Snape.

Dumbledore is not afraid of Malfoy because he knows Malfoy does't have the heart for it (and makes one last attempt to save Malfoy) but also because he knows Malfoy isn't powerful enough to kill Dumbledore. He also doubts the other Deatheaters will kill him, even in his weakened condition. that's why he stunned Harry, so the deatheaters can't threaten Dumbledore with damage to Harry. they could, however, capture him, and a worse strategic reversal for the Phoenix would be harder to imagine.

So when Snape shows up, Dumbledore pleads with him, not to spare his life, but to kill him, because:

1) Dumbledore does not want to become a prisoner of Voldemort. Death is preferable.
2) Dumbledore is dying and cannot be cured
3) Snape is the only wizard powerful enough to kill Dumbledore, and who is willing to do it.
4) It will be excellent cover for Snape to stay close to Voldemort and help Harry when the reader least expects it in book 7.
5) If Snape saved Dumbledore, the Phoenix would no longer have an inside man with Voldemort.

[JeeberD]

I agree competely that DD was pleading with Snape to kill him, not to spare him...

[Katon]

2) Dumbledore is dying and cannot be cured


He may or may not be dying, but he's doomed whatever Snape does. In order for Dumbledore to survive, at the point when Snape enters the room all the following things have to be true:

1) The potion is either curable or non-fatal. I don't buy the concept of Voldemort keeping non-lethal defences on one of his horcruxes; it could be curable, the way the ring's defences were, but Dumbledore isn't as strong as he was before he ran into the ring.

2) Snape and a wandless Dumbledore have to be able to beat the Death Eaters without sustaining any major damage

3) Snape, immediately after a tricky fight from which he's probably wounded, has to discover the cure to the potion before Dumbledore succumbs. Which should happen fairly soon since Dumbledore's been fighting non-stop ever since drinking it.

4) Snape has to not get killed by his Unbreakable Vow to help Draco during all of this.

Not happening. The best Snape can do for Dumbledore is to give him a painless death and use said death to support his double-agent role.

[Buccaneer]

Alright, if this is the spoiler version of this thread...

I (and others, I belive) think RAB is Regulus Black, Sirius' brother. Could this knowledge of his be part of the reason Snape hated Sirius so much, because he knew Voldemort did?

I assume, then, that in book 7, Harry will find the REAL locket in 12 Grimuald Place, provided Mundungus didn't take THAT too. Hence I think book 7 has a real shot of having Mundungus feature more prominently, especially if there are any other horcruxes hidden in Sirius' old place...

I really do wonder what will happen to Draco. Obviously, he didn't exactly do what Voldemort asked him to do, and Snape had to bail him out...I don't think that will exactly "please" Voldemort.

Based on what Harry has left to do in book 7 (find 4 horcruxes and fight Voldemort in a final show-down), I imagine 7 will be quite a bit longer than expected.

Now, for what was said at Mugglenet (http://www.mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/book6facts.shtml) in terms of "facts" and rumors about books 6 and 7 (my comments in red)...



We will learn a lot more about Voldemort in this book.
Yes, yes we did. We know more about Voldemort's past than we do Harry's!!
HBP will be an intense book, but with light-hearted moments.
OK, I agree. Mostly dark with some funny times...
Harry will leave Privet Drive early again, for a "much pleasanter" reason than in book 5.
Yep, this is true.
The opening chapter of book 6 was originally planned for the early parts of book 1, perhaps we get a more in-depth story of what happened the night Harry's parents died.
Obviously, we didn't get this "in-depth story" of what happened. The opening chapter of book 6 would have been fine in book 3 (Prisoner of Azkaban), in my opinion, as it was sort of out of place in HBP.


Neither Harry or Voldemort (including Tom Riddle) are the Half-Blood Prince
Duh. I never thought they were. I actually thought Snape had a good possibility of being him before the book came out, though I was leaning towards one of the kids (like Seamus or Dean).
Arthur Weasley will not be the new Minister of Magic
Duh again. Interesting that the new Minister is somebody we've never heard of.
By the ends of books 6 and 7 "you'll have all the back story you'll need", says JK Rowling, and a prequel will not be necessary
Um, ok. :)
There will be a new Minister of Magic, no more Mr. Fudge.
See above comment under "Arthur Weasly..."
We will find out what happened to Hagrid's half brother Grawp. He will be a bit more controllable in book 6.
I guess, though Grawp was really not part of the story here in book 6. Maybe he'll play a more prominent role in book 7, but I somehow doubt it. If you remember from book 5, the other giants didn't care much for him because he was smaller than they were.
The Dursleys are in the next book, but Harry's stay with them will be the shortest yet. In book 5 he stayed for 4 weeks, so we know his stay will be less than 4 weeks.
Yep.
Cho Chang will not be a romantic interest of Harry in Book 6, however there will be a "little romance" for Harry says JK.
Who didn't see Harry's romance with Ginny coming? Who thinks it'll re-ignite in book 7, even though he's pushed Ginny away for now?
In books 6 and 7 we will find out exactly why JK killed off Sirius.
Didn't figure it out in book 6, guess we'll have to wait for book 7. Unless it was solely so Harry could inherit his house and thus his posessions which likely include a horcrux (maybe more than one?)...
Harry becomes even more powerful in book 6.
He's become more powerful in every book, this seems like a no-brainer.
In books 6 and 7 we will find out why Dumbledore trusts Snape.
I suppose we found out SOMEWHAT why in book 6, but boy do I hope this is resolved in book 7. I felt that the entire "old mans mistakes" and "too trusting bit" were a bit of a wash-over.
We will find out what happened to Wormtail AKA Peter Pettigrew
Again, I hope we find out more about what happened, other than him just going to live with Snape...
More about the animosity between Snape and Sirius will be revealed in the last 2 books.
I hope it's revealed in book 7, didn't get much of a feeling for it in book 6.
JK has said that giving away the form of Snape's boggart and patronus says too much. We'll definitely find out what Snape's worst fear is, and it'll be important.
I think this must be a book 7 thing.
Hermione and Draco will NOT end up together in book 6 or 7.
Well isn't that a relief? ;)
We will find out what exactly Dudley saw when he looked at the dementors.
Didn't find it out in 6, hopefully that will come out in 7. What could a kid like Dudley be consciously afraid of?
The reason Voldemort and Harry both didn't die when Voldemort tried to kill Harry, will be revealed.
Never really thought about this one. Is there some reason other than the love bit?
We will see more of Draco's mother, Narcissa Malfoy, now that Lucius is busy.
Guess we did see a bit of her, but again, I wonder what's going to happen to Draco.
We'll learn more about Harry's scar in the last 2 books.
I didn't think there was much particularly revealed about it in book 6.
Moaning Myrtle will make an appearance again, as will Tonks.
I love both of these characters. :)
More about Voldemort's birth will be revealed, thus helping us understand why he is so evil.
Book 6 gives a lot of background, but no real reason for him being evil other than it's just his personality, in my opinion...
Muggles begin to notice "more and more odd" occurrences in book 6, says JK.
Yep.
The wizarding world is really at war in the sixth book.
Yep.
Harry will tell his dearest friends about the prophesy after it sinks in to him.
Yep.
We will learn more about Harry's relatives, including his grandparents (though JK says they aren't really important to the story)
Guess that's for book 7.
We will find out what happened to Sirius's motorbike.
Guess that will happen in book 7, too. I assume this means we'll find out what happened to it AFTER he lent it to Hagrid, because it's revealed in book 3 that Sirius lent Hagrid his bike to get Harry to safety.
Book 6 will be shorter than the 5th book (or at least JK's 99% sure, but will not swear on her children's lives)
Yep. It was a bit shorter.
There will be no "new" nationalities of children at Hogwarts. Hogwarts is a British school, and JK says that adding foreigners for the sake of it is not in her plans.
Not sure where this came from.
During an interview, when JKR was asked in which Hogwarts room she'd like to be for 1 hour, she said it would be a room in which Harry has been before, but doesn't know its importance. Yet. (this could have happened in book 5, but we're unsure)
Could this be the Room of Requirement?
It's very important in the plot that Harry has his mother's eyes, and that her wand was very good for charms.
I'm intrigued by this. Especially because it didn't come up too much in book 6, except that Lily was also good at potions (at least according to Slug)
So yeah. :) Feel free to discuss/disparage. :) My mom and sister still haven't started it (well, I guess my sister STARTED it but only just), so I'm looking for others to discuss it with. :D

/tk
Nice work.

Without reading any of the other comments so far, I think the HBP did plod too much in the middle and we never did (nor will?) find out why Dumbledore trusted Snape. Just believing that there is "good in him" (like Darth Vader) seemed pretty weak.

[Buccaneer]

Ok, I did a quick scan of the remaining posts and have to go along with DD wanted Snape to kill him.

[JeeberD]

The third part of the Rowling interview is up on Mugglenet.

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml

This part caught my eye:

MA: Oh, here’s one [from our forums] that I’ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?

JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has.

Soooo...does that mean that Snape wasn't acting on DD's orders? Does it mean that Snape truly IS a Death Eater?

[Buccaneer]

What or what the hell are "shippers"?

[JeeberD]

Those are the folks who are obsessed with the potential relationships in the series. There are quite a few from what I understand.

Harry/Ginny
Harry/Hermione
Harry/Luna
Ron/Hermione
Ron/Luna
Nevil/Luna
etc...

[ISiddiqui]

The third part of the Rowling interview is up on Mugglenet.

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml

This part caught my eye:

Soooo...does that mean that Snape wasn't acting on DD's orders? Does it mean that Snape truly IS a Death Eater?
I think she means Lily Potter. Makes him more culpable for telling Voldemort about the prophecy. Remember Snape WAS a Death Eater.

Perhaps the reason he's so bitter at James is that he stole Snape's girl.

[Tigercat]

It almost seems too obvious that Snape was in love with Lily. But I wouldn't be surprised if Snape had a love/hate relationship with Lily, she was a mudblood and still was perhaps able to compete with him at potions. (Although how much she was able to compete with him at potions is guesswork from this last book.) Not to mention he perhaps even had a thing for a mudblood. It would explain his angry remarks to her in Snapes memory, he had a thing for her, but he hated himself for it, so he didn't want any help from her.

[OldGiants]

Those are the folks who are obsessed with the potential relationships in the series. There are quite a few from what I understand.

Harry/Ginny
Harry/Hermione
Harry/Luna
Ron/Hermione
Ron/Luna
Nevil/Luna
etc...
Am I the only one who skimmed the long sections in which teenagers talk about who is going out with whom? Tedious beyond belief. Sections like those are when you really notice that the author is a woman.

A man would have written about who Harry thinks about when he abuses his wand.http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[gi]

Am I the only one who skimmed the long sections in which teenagers talk about who is going out with whom? Tedious beyond belief. Sections like those are when you really notice that the author is a woman.

A man would have written about who Harry thinks about when he abuses his wand.http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif
I found her ability to capture the teenage mind to be very accurate. I felt those parts are what really make this series special.

[Celeval]

Am I the only one who skimmed the long sections in which teenagers talk about who is going out with whom? Tedious beyond belief. Sections like those are when you really notice that the author is a woman.

A man would have written about who Harry thinks about when he abuses his wand.http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif
Cho in Books 4 and 5, Ginny in this one. Really, man, read between the lines. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[terpkristin]

Came across this website today: http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com
Goes through clues found in the book and what they might signify.

An interesting read, anyway...

/tk

[JeeberD]

Good stuff. I don't agree with everything that is stated there, though...

[terpkristin]

Me either, but it's still interesting to read some of the theories. :)

/tk

[ISiddiqui]

It almost seems too obvious that Snape was in love with Lily. But I wouldn't be surprised if Snape had a love/hate relationship with Lily, she was a mudblood and still was perhaps able to compete with him at potions. (Although how much she was able to compete with him at potions is guesswork from this last book.) Not to mention he perhaps even had a thing for a mudblood. It would explain his angry remarks to her in Snapes memory, he had a thing for her, but he hated himself for it, so he didn't want any help from her.
Well, seeing how Snape is a mudblood himself, it would have been quite strange for him to get mad that another mudblood would compete with him at potions. Though he may have had a self-hating of his origins and didn't want to have feelings for another half-blood wizard.

[JeeberD]

Snape is a half-blood, not muggle-born...

(and how dare you use a filthy term life the m-word) ;)

[ISiddiqui]

Snape is a half-blood, not muggle-born...

(and how dare you use a filthy term life the m-word) ;)
Half-bloods are also refered to as mudbloods, IIRC. After all, it means impurity of blood, so half and half would do the trick.

[DaddyTorgo]

could the 7th horcrux somehow be harry's scar? like the tissue in it, or living in it/in harry like dumbledore thought it was in the snake?

[Celeval]

I've been thinking that, but everyone I've mentioned it to has said, essentially "No, that's not it."

[ISiddiqui]

I've been thinking that, but everyone I've mentioned it to has said, essentially "No, that's not it."
Which unless it is Rowling doesn't mean anything ;). Knowing her, it could be ANYTHING!

[Elvis]

could the 7th horcrux somehow be harry's scar? like the tissue in it, or living in it/in harry like dumbledore thought it was in the snake?

I kinda like that theory...

Then, of course, Harry has to find a way to kill himself and Voldemort at the same time to finish him off...


Harry Potter and The Homemade Suicide Bomb

[ISiddiqui]

I kinda like that theory...

Then, of course, Harry has to find a way to kill himself and Voldemort at the same time to finish him off...


Harry Potter and The Homemade Suicide Bomb
Actually, since it is the alternative to the "Harry as a horcrux" theory, I thought that the scar as a horcrux would allow somewhat of getting rid of it and sparing Harry. It's a "Harry as a horcrux" theory that doesn't involve Harry dying.

[Celeval]

The other open question is why DD was so happy to hear V took some of HP's blood. Undoing of the horcrux, perhaps?

[terpkristin]

Bringing the "scar as horcrux" theory in, I'm not sure if it has any relevance, but I seem to remember something from the first book...
In the beginning, when Hagrid brought Harry to the Dursley's and met up with Dumbledore and McGonagall, McGonagall commented on how awful the scar was, and asked Dumbledore if he could remove it for Harry. Dumbledore replied at the time that he couldn't, and even if he could, he wouldn't, that sometimes scars are helpful (and then went on to say how he had one that mapped out the London Underground). Perhaps there IS some use to that scar, horcrux or not...

/tk

[ISiddiqui]

The other open question is why DD was so happy to hear V took some of HP's blood. Undoing of the horcrux, perhaps?
Only problem with that theory, however, is that wouldn't explain why Harry was so linked with Voldemort in OotP, which, of course, is after when the blood of Harry was taken.

[DaddyTorgo]

on thinking on this theory i don't think it's viable unless harry can get rid of the scar without killing himself. i dunno if i can see rowling basically having harry have to kill himself, what kinda message is that to kids?

[JeeberD]

The problem with this theory is that the scar formed AFTER Harry "defeated" Voldemort. Did he somehow complete some difficult spells after Adava Kadavra rebounded on him?

[Glengoyne]

could the 7th horcrux somehow be harry's scar? like the tissue in it, or living in it/in harry like dumbledore thought it was in the snake?
I was thinking that Harry himself might be the horcrux. IIRC, The sorting hat wanted to put him in Slytherin. Maybe that was the reason. Or did the hat just want to do that because he said "not Slytherin". I can't remember.

I think Dumbledore is dead, killed by Snape, almost certainly with Dumbledore's consent. Snape may even eventually save the day. If Harry is the seventh horcrux, then maybe Harry will make the ultimate sacrifice in defeating Voldemort, and we'll really have an end to this series at seven books.

[terpkristin]

I guess my big problem with Harry=Horcrux or Harry's scar=Horcrux is that a horcrux is created when you KILL somebody.
Voldemort had the plan of killing Harry, so he probably didn't make Harry a horcrux when he was killing his father and then his mom, thinking that he'd just kill Harry next and that would be useless for a horcrux. Then, he DIDN'T kill Harry, so a horcrux couldn't have been created...could it?

/tk

[Celeval]

Here's another related theory that my wife and I were talking about - why did Voldemort not die when Avada Kedavra rebounded on him?

Thought: He couldn't die, since parts of his soul were still out and about, as it were. Say he split his soul into seven (or six, depending at that point) parts - the A/K may have "taken care of" one of those parts. It's possible that Harry /did/ become the horcrux, because Voldemort "died", although that's a stretch.

Still leaves open what happened when V took H's blood. There's obviously information about the horcruxes that we don't have.

[Glengoyne]

I guess my big problem with Harry=Horcrux or Harry's scar=Horcrux is that a horcrux is created when you KILL somebody.
Voldemort had the plan of killing Harry, so he probably didn't make Harry a horcrux when he was killing his father and then his mom, thinking that he'd just kill Harry next and that would be useless for a horcrux. Then, he DIDN'T kill Harry, so a horcrux couldn't have been created...could it?

/tk
Good point, assuming that he actually intended to kill Harry. Just 'cause we've been told that for six books, doesn't necessarily make it true. That is just a bit of Devil's advocate.

I think I like the theory of Harry = Horcrux because it was something that came to me while reading the passage describing Horcruxes. I was too stunned to pick up on the Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him bit, because at the time I was reading that chapter, I was positive that someone was going to kill Snape. It didn't really occur to me that it was odd/completely out of character for Dumbledore to plead with Snape until I was discussing the scene with a co-worker.

[OldGiants]

I thought of the scar as horcrux, too, but I'm not sure I like it. OTOH, there is the fact that Voldy just killed both of Harry's parents, which should satisfy the 'need a death to create a horcrux' twice over.

And regarding the surviving the avada kadavra curse, is that a fact? I mean is it definitely that curse that Harry countered, or is it simply a myth that Dumbledore (and Voldy) wish to exist. By that I mean, could Harry have countered the 'make a horcrux' spell instead? Dumbledore would not want Voldy to know he knew about the horcrux, and Voldy would not want folks to know that either. So the scar might be 'half-a-horcrux' out there for anyone to capture. Voldy needs to get it back, which is part of the prophecy.

[JeeberD]

OMG! Dumbledore on toast!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5601561868

[Buccaneer]

I saw something on imdb that made me pause.

"I am willing to bet that Snape was willing to die for the cause, and DD told him he had to stay alive, which is why he made the Unbreakable Vow, on DDs urging. Also, didn't Narcissa or Bella have a burned arm when the vow was made? JUST LIKE DD?? Polyjuice potion"

I don't read the mugglenet forums but this led me to think that not only are characters not what you think they are but not who you think they are.

[Celeval]

"I am willing to bet that Snape was willing to die for the cause, and DD told him he had to stay alive, which is why he made the Unbreakable Vow, on DDs urging. Also, didn't Narcissa or Bella have a burned arm when the vow was made? JUST LIKE DD?? Polyjuice potion"
I couldn't find anything about a burned arm... "Bella let go of her sister's arm as though burned." was the closest, but nothing nearly like DD.

[OldGiants]

I

this led me to think that not only are characters not what you think they are but not who you think they are.
No, you're over-analyzing. This is a children's book when all is said and done, and it will end with Harry winning. No one can have too convoluted or obscure a motive that would confuse a 12-year old.

Other than Snape doing the deed, was anyone surprised Dumbledore died? I've been expecting it since book 1 and it seems a traditional rite of passage for the old mentor to die. If DD were still alive, Harry couldn't be the most powerful wizard, and he must end up that way. Also, Dd's portrait in the headmaster (now McGonigle) will be there to give advice and clues when needed, so in that sense he's still around to advance the plot.

So the book, while clever and engaging, doesn't really break new ground in the main story elements. and we shouldn't expect it to. Rowling won't confirm or deny, but that's to protect the obvious, not the unexpected.

[OldGiants]

OMG! Dumbledore on toast!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5601561868
Looks more like you at a UTEP game when you realize the Miners have called a line plunge from their own 6 on Fourth and 27.

[ISiddiqui]

I guess my big problem with Harry=Horcrux or Harry's scar=Horcrux is that a horcrux is created when you KILL somebody.
Voldemort had the plan of killing Harry, so he probably didn't make Harry a horcrux when he was killing his father and then his mom, thinking that he'd just kill Harry next and that would be useless for a horcrux. Then, he DIDN'T kill Harry, so a horcrux couldn't have been created...could it?
The theory goes that after Voldemort killed Lily he at the split soul needed for a horcrux. Perhaps the split soul after he killed Harry would have been used instead for something else. The spell messed up and the split soul was still out there and when Voldemort realized the spell backfired, he quickly sent his split soul into the first thing he could think of, the the boy in front of him, before he got hit.

[Buccaneer]

The theory goes that after Voldemort killed Lily he at the split soul needed for a horcrux. Perhaps the split soul after he killed Harry would have been used instead for something else. The spell messed up and the split soul was still out there and when Voldemort realized the spell backfired, he quickly sent his split soul into the first thing he could think of, the the boy in front of him, before he got hit.
There are strong hints that someone/something else was there in the house that night. Could it have received the horcrux?

[Buccaneer]

Do you realize that at this rate, everything will have been beaten to death in a couple of months...but book 7 won't be out until year and a half to two years from now?

[HomerJSimpson]

No, you're over-analyzing. This is a children's book when all is said and done, and it will end with Harry winning. No one can have too convoluted or obscure a motive that would confuse a 12-year old.

Other than Snape doing the deed, was anyone surprised Dumbledore died? I've been expecting it since book 1 and it seems a traditional rite of passage for the old mentor to die. If DD were still alive, Harry couldn't be the most powerful wizard, and he must end up that way. Also, Dd's portrait in the headmaster (now McGonigle) will be there to give advice and clues when needed, so in that sense he's still around to advance the plot.

So the book, while clever and engaging, doesn't really break new ground in the main story elements. and we shouldn't expect it to. Rowling won't confirm or deny, but that's to protect the obvious, not the unexpected.


Dead on.

[Buccaneer]

I agree as well. How many times have we seen the wise old mentor pass on to allow the young apprentice to grow?

[ISiddiqui]

Do you realize that at this rate, everything will have been beaten to death in a couple of months...but book 7 won't be out until year and a half to two years from now?
And that's just the way Rowling wants it, I'm sure ;). That's why she's taking a year off before writing it. Getting everything beat to death, people say, I'm bored with the series... have it all die down and then coming out with the announcement, theories fly around again, the bored people come back and frenzy results ;).

Also she seems to like having a secret that no one else knows (through her interviews) :D.

[judicial clerk]

Dumbledore = John Wayne in The Cowboys = Obi Wan Kanobi = Qui Gon Jin = Aslan = McBain's partner who was 1 day from retirement = Rocky's manager in Rocky III = Apollo Creed in Rocky IV = Tom Hank's character in Saving Private Ryan = Leo DiCaprio's character in Titanic = Von Ryan in Von Ryan's Express = Gandalf in the mines of Moria = The King of Rohan in the battle of Gondor = etc.

Oh, and Snape was definitely doing Dumbly's bidding.

[Eaglesfan27]

My wife has been urging me to read this series for the past year or two. I finally started with book 1 just after book 6 came out. I just finished book 6. This has been one of the most enjoyable series I've read in a long time. Now, I can finally look at this thread and see what you all thought :)

[ISiddiqui]

Another convert!! We're winning ;).

As soon as people put aside the 'kids novel' stuff, they usually enjoy the books.

[saldana]

i am in the camp with the "DD told SS to kill him" people...i think the first chapter of book 7 will be aberforth coming forward with Albus's will and explaining the whole thing.

i also think that the reason DD always trusted snape was because after SS became a death eater and gave the prophecy to V, DD made him take an unbreakable vow to protect harys life at all costs. think about how many times snape has done something to protect harry, right up to the end of HPB when he prevented the big blond death eater from attacking him.

further i think the line about "you cant win until you learn to close your mouth and mind" was actually a last lesson to harry about how to defeat voldemort. he also has to go back to school(which i think will be in the will, and harry promised to obey DD, even after death) because he isnt nearly capable enough to beat V

last, i agree with the harry is a horcrux thoughts, in fact, i have an entire different idea of the horcruxs...we know there are 7 parts of voldemort, i account for them as follows

part 1. the corporeal V that died the night he tried to kill harry,
part 2. Quirrel had to have found a horcrux in the Black Forest, and was possessed by Voldemort through that...that part died when he failed to get the sorcerers stone
part 3. the diary, destroyed in CoS
part 4. Wormtail retrieved a horcrux in albania and used it to reincarnate V in the GOF, this is the V that is walking around now
part 5. the ring, destroyed in HBP
part 6. the locket, currently at 12 Grimmauld Place
part 7. Harry. created in the instant before part 1 died after V killed lily and james. support for this are the facts that harry is a parselmouth, his wand is a brother to V's, his scar hurts from V's emotions (the 2 pieces of the soul feel the same emotions), DD says its very dangerous to create a horcrux in something with a mind of its own, and in the CoS when harry finds the diary, "he knew he should throw it away, but fofr some reason felt drawn to it and was unable to put it down"(quote not exact)

[Buccaneer]

saldana, very nice work. To me, the line "you cant win until you learn to close your mouth and mind" is about as big of a clue as there is.

I watched the first movie again recently and I am thinking that there are probably more clues about book 7 in book 1- but a lot readers can't remember back that far.

Regarding Imran's comment, I started reading this series after book 4 came out and I had never thought nor understood this being a "children's" book or series. Even with that, I keep thinking back to what OG said and it still makes a lot of sense. Book 7 is not going to end with evil beating good or that good is destroyed along with evil.

[ISiddiqui]

Why would you think the one of V's parts died that night in Godric's Hollow? I think it was pretty well established that he survived, but as a shell of himself, and it was that shell that was resurected by Pettigrew at the end of GoF.

[Buccaneer]

Because there was something/someone else there that night?

[ISiddiqui]

Oh, and furthermore, in the list of horcruxes, I think Hufflepuff's Cup is supposed to be one as well.

[oliegirl]

So if Harry is in fact a horcrux, does he have to die for V to die, or is there a way to remove that part of him? Maybe by destroying V's wand? Could the wand actually be the horcrux and that is what is tying to two together? Did Harry's scar ever hurt before he had the sister wand?

[Eaglesfan27]

I had many different thoughts before I started reading this thread and before I read a few of the sites such as the interview parts that were linked.

Before I started reading this thread, I thought that Snape really is a death eater. I thought that Dumbledore said please because Snape finally wasn't trying to obscure his mind and Dumbledore immediately sensed Snape's intentions and was starting to plead with him.

However, now I realize that was probably a foolish line of thought. I think Saldana is probably right on target. An unbreakable vow to protect Harry's life would make a great deal of sense throughout several points in the book. Snape had the upper hand when he was countering all of Harry's spells. I think he was trying to give him one last bit of advice. In any case, I can't wait until Book 7 comes out.

[saldana]

he survived as his consciousness within a horcrux...we know they have consciousness because the diary was alive....if he was able to just float around in the wind, why does he need a horcrux? and if a killing spell rebounds back at him, shouldnt he have died?

[ISiddiqui]

he survived as his consciousness within a horcrux...we know they have consciousness because the diary was alive....if he was able to just float around in the wind, why does he need a horcrux? and if a killing spell rebounds back at him, shouldnt he have died?
He has his horcruxes in case he actually dies, which he did not! Him floating around was a result of his lack of power (he couldn't ground him). The question is why did Voldemort have to possess Quirrell and live like an aborted fetus (so to speak), if Quirell found a horcrux? A horcrux is just a piece of soul. If the piece of soul became animated, one would think it would become the person itself, not some crappy little thing.

The answer is that he did not die when the killing spell was reversed. Remember, he even told Harry that he crawled around for so long after the backfire of the spell waiting to get back to full strength again. He has no knowledge of his horcruxes (as Dumbledore sasid), so also his horcruxes would have no knowledge of the other parts of the soul.

As for the diary being alive, Dumbledore addressed that, saying it was scary because it seemed to be intended to be used as a weapon rather than keeping a soul safe. The ring did not seem to be alive... nor the locket.

[judicial clerk]

I wonder if Harry Potter is even the boy who will kill Voldmort. I am wondering if it might not end up being Draco.

Draco is Potter's age (don't know about birthdate)
Voldmort marked Draco (assuming he gave Draco a deatheater symbol)
I also don't know if Draco's parents defied VBoldmort three times.

I am confident that DD wanted Snape to kill him.

[Celeval]

I wonder if Harry Potter is even the boy who will kill Voldmort. I am wondering if it might not end up being Draco.

Draco is Potter's age (don't know about birthdate)
Voldmort marked Draco (assuming he gave Draco a deatheater symbol)
I also don't know if Draco's parents defied VBoldmort three times.

I am confident that DD wanted Snape to kill him.
Hell of a thought, but Draco was born on June 5 (according to JKR's "Happy Birthday Draco" message on her website).

[saldana]

Voldmort marked Draco (assuming he gave Draco a deatheater symbol)


but the prophecy says voldemort will mark the one as his equal...the dark mark on a death eaters arm is a mark of servitude, not equality.

[Buccaneer]

Not worth starting a thread on GoF yet but in viewing the trailer, do you get the impression that Potter has gone Michael Jackson? His last shot shows him with very pale complexion, long dark stringy hair and red lips.

[Celeval]

?? I don't see a shot like that.

[Schmidty]

FUCKING A!!!!!!! I accidentally scrolled of this thread, turned my head to watch the something on TV, turned my head back and I see the preview thing saying something about DUMBLEDORE BEING FUCKING KILLED BY SNAPE. I am currently reading the book (as of friday) and I am FURIOUS.

Can't you fucking put spoilers farther down the thread in cases like this? Fucking Airhog. Thanks for ruining this book for me. :mad:

[MacroGuru]

FUCKING A!!!!!!! I accidentally scrolled of this thread, turned my head to watch the something on TV, turned my head back and I see the preview thing saying something about DUMBLEDORE BEING FUCKING KILLED BY SNAPE. I am currently reading the book (as of friday) and I am FURIOUS.

Can't you fucking put spoilers farther down the thread in cases like this? Fucking Airhog. Thanks for ruining this book for me. :mad:
Umm.....the thread....says spoilers inside....

[Schmidty]

Umm.....the thread....says spoilers inside....

Um, did you not read what I said? Cursor inadvertantly rested on title of thread as I turned my head, preview of thread pops up, I am fucked. Thanks.

[JeeberD]

Weird...the preview only shows me "Now that Ive finished reading the book I must say, this has taken a bit of a turn. I al..."

Bucc, can't say that I've seen pics on Mugglenet.com that look like that.

[Schmidty]

Weird...the preview only shows me "Now that Ive finished reading the book I must say, this has taken a bit of a turn. I al..."

Bucc, can't say that I've seen pics on Mugglenet.com that look like that.

Mine preview the first paragraph and part of the next.

I'm just mad and disappointed right now. I was really enjoying the book. :(

[JeeberD]

I feel for you Schmidy. Two days before the book came out some asshole on Clutchfans.net posted a thread titled "Hey Harry Potter Fans!" Inside the thread he posted four huge spoilers, including the one you stumbled on. Pissed me off royally. I didn't let it ruin the book for me, though. Keep on reading...there's more to the book that that one thing.

[Schmidty]

I feel for you Schmidy. Two days before the book came out some asshole on Clutchfans.net posted a thread titled "Hey Harry Potter Fans!" Inside the thread he posted four huge spoilers, including the one you stumbled on. Pissed me off royally. I didn't let it ruin the book for me, though. Keep on reading...there's more to the book that that one thing.

Damn that would have sucked. Anyway, thanks Jeebs. I'm still going to read it, it was just a huge shock to randomly see something like that out of the corner of my eye.

[terpkristin]

I must say, I'm not a fan of how either Rupert Grint (Ron) or Daniel Radcliffe (Harry) have been looking. Both look seriously shaggy and it's just really not attractive.

As for Schmidty, yeah it sucks that now you know one of the big things, but seriously, why even have your mouse near this thread when it says "*spoilers inside*'.

At least there was fair warning. When a lot of us found it out (from other places, as JeeberD mentioned), people weren't so nice as to put spoiler warnings on things.

/tk

[JeeberD]

At least there was fair warning. When a lot of us found it out (from other places, as JeeberD mentioned), people weren't so nice as to put spoiler warnings on things.

/tk

Yeah, but the guy who spoiled it for me didn't just let the spoilers slip, the spoilers were the only things in the thread. He was TRYING to spoil it for people. Luckily the mods locked then deleted the thread, and then banned the jackass after he started another thread bitching about his thread being deleted.

Justice. :D

[Schmidty]

As for Schmidty, yeah it sucks that now you know one of the big things, but seriously, why even have your mouse near this thread when it says "*spoilers inside*'.

Like I've said twice before, it was an accident. I've always avoided this thread like a plague, and by a fluke I bumped/rested/whatever my mouse on the threa area. Not even the title, just the area to the right of the title.

I guess my gripe is that he could have done something like this:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
And then the spoiler.

Oh well, it's in the past now.

[Buccaneer]

Sorry to have bumped this up.

What I referring to was the film trailer where at the start, they show a shot of each of the 3 characters as they have matured in the 4 films. tk is right, Rupert is looking more dorkier and Daniel is looking frightening, at least from the trailer.

[ISiddiqui]

My preview also shows just part of the first sentance. No spoilers revealed at all. However, I don't really sympathize with Schmidty. If your preview shows the first paragraph, don't read down that far. Realize where the popup tool was pointing at and quickly switch it.

Anyway, I like how Harry and Ron are looking in GoF.

[Schmidty]

My preview also shows just part of the first sentance. No spoilers revealed at all. However, I don't really sympathize with Schmidty. If your preview shows the first paragraph, don't read down that far. Realize where the popup tool was pointing at and quickly switch it.

Anyway, I like how Harry and Ron are looking in GoF.

I don't want, nor do I need your sympathy.

I did not, as you said, read the paragraph (as I stated in a former post). It was my unfortunate fate to see the phrase " he killed Dumbledore" as soon as I looked from the TV to the screen.

Like I said, it's in the past and the shock has already worn off.



edit: I wonder if the fact that I use Sideline Green as my skin has something to do with how much stuff I see in a preview.

[Buccaneer]

I just viewed all of the photos and they do look better. I'll just chalk up the trailer to bad lighting.

[Logan]

edit: I wonder if the fact that I use Sideline Green as my skin has something to do with how much stuff I see in a preview.

I'm on the yellow skin, and I see the same preview you do.

Of course, I didn't have the same shitty luck you did while I was waiting to read the book.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

I bought this the night it was released and am still haven't had a chance to read it. Hopefully this christmas break though.

[GrantDawg]

Did anyone see the video of the guy driving by the bookstore release night yelling "Snape kills Dumbledore" at the people in line? What a jerk.



it did cause me to giggle.

[Coder]

I'm on the yellow skin, and I see the same preview you do.

Of course, I didn't have the same shitty luck you did while I was waiting to read the book.

I noticed that Firefox doesn't give that much of a preview, while IE basically gives the whole post.

[terpkristin]

Like I've said twice before, it was an accident. I've always avoided this thread like a plague, and by a fluke I bumped/rested/whatever my mouse on the threa area. Not even the title, just the area to the right of the title.


To be honest, that's a fair gripe.
Though it also raises a question--does everybody see the same things in the preview with the mouse-over?

When I mouseover the thread, I don't see anything of the spoiler, I guess some of it has to do with IE vs. Firefox AND what skin you use.

It's a bummer, I know. When I got the thing spoiled for me, somebody had sent me a link and I just clicked on it benignly, knowing he's not a fan of the HP series, I never dreamed the link would be about book 6. He still hasn't been forgiven.

/tk

[JeeberD]

I noticed that Firefox doesn't give that much of a preview, while IE basically gives the whole post.

That might be it...I'm in Firefox.

Edit: Confirmed. The IE preview was much, much longer. Just another reason to use Firefox. :D

[BreizhManu]

i am in the camp with the "DD told SS to kill him" people...i think the first chapter of book 7 will be aberforth coming forward with Albus's will and explaining the whole thing.

i also think that the reason DD always trusted snape was because after SS became a death eater and gave the prophecy to V, DD made him take an unbreakable vow to protect harys life at all costs. think about how many times snape has done something to protect harry, right up to the end of HPB when he prevented the big blond death eater from attacking him.

further i think the line about "you cant win until you learn to close your mouth and mind" was actually a last lesson to harry about how to defeat voldemort. he also has to go back to school(which i think will be in the will, and harry promised to obey DD, even after death) because he isnt nearly capable enough to beat V

last, i agree with the harry is a horcrux thoughts, in fact, i have an entire different idea of the horcruxs...we know there are 7 parts of voldemort, i account for them as follows

part 1. the corporeal V that died the night he tried to kill harry,
part 2. Quirrel had to have found a horcrux in the Black Forest, and was possessed by Voldemort through that...that part died when he failed to get the sorcerers stone
part 3. the diary, destroyed in CoS
part 4. Wormtail retrieved a horcrux in albania and used it to reincarnate V in the GOF, this is the V that is walking around now
part 5. the ring, destroyed in HBP
part 6. the locket, currently at 12 Grimmauld Place
part 7. Harry. created in the instant before part 1 died after V killed lily and james. support for this are the facts that harry is a parselmouth, his wand is a brother to V's, his scar hurts from V's emotions (the 2 pieces of the soul feel the same emotions), DD says its very dangerous to create a horcrux in something with a mind of its own, and in the CoS when harry finds the diary, "he knew he should throw it away, but fofr some reason felt drawn to it and was unable to put it down"(quote not exact)Just finished the book and something that seems obvious to me but that I have not seen in this thread :

Harry and Dumbledore found the horcrux they were looking for, it was the water that Dumbledore drank, that's why he asked Snape to kill him. And that's what he says in the letter.

[Barkeep49]

Just finished the book and something that seems obvious to me but that I have not seen in this thread :

Harry and Dumbledore found the horcrux they were looking for, it was the water that Dumbledore drank, that's why he asked Snape to kill him. And that's what he says in the letter.
It's been a while since I've read it. I don't get what you're getting at.

[Crapshoot]

Regardless I think anyone who thinks Snape has been and still is pure evil death eater is going to miss the mark. From this book alone, I think Snape's conversation at the begining of the book with the death eaters obviously outs him as not one.

" "

[Crapshoot]

Am I the only one who skimmed the long sections in which teenagers talk about who is going out with whom? Tedious beyond belief. Sections like those are when you really notice that the author is a woman.

A man would have written about who Harry thinks about when he abuses his wand.http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Eh, I liked em - I remember being 16. (I'm only 23 damnit !) :D

On the subject, Ron and Hermoine has made sense since book 1 basically.

[Crapshoot]

My wife has been urging me to read this series for the past year or two. I finally started with book 1 just after book 6 came out. I just finished book 6. This has been one of the most enjoyable series I've read in a long time. Now, I can finally look at this thread and see what you all thought :)

Yup - got bored, and read the entire series in one week. This is the kind of stuff that got me started reading in the first place, and I'm now an addict. :D

[Buccaneer]

Eh, I liked em - I remember being 16. (I'm only 23 damnit !) :D

On the subject, Ron and Hermoine has made sense since book 1 basically.
I had been thinking about that recently and still wonder how it was obvious? I know they spend a lot of time together during the summer but starting in book 1, they loathed each other. What was it that got them together or saw something in each other? Opposites attract?

As far as the horocrux in the drink, I thought that that was the locket back at Grimmauld since nothing was found in the bottom of the cup except the RAB note?

[Crapshoot]

I had been thinking about that recently and still wonder how it was obvious? I know they spend a lot of time together during the summer but starting in book 1, they loathed each other. What was it that got them together or saw something in each other? Opposites attract?

As far as the horocrux in the drink, I thought that that was the locket back at Grimmauld since nothing was found in the bottom of the cup except the RAB note?

Answering the first part of your question - I don't think it was ever loathing - there's a fair bit of banter between the two always, but they give a damn, as it were. Ron's willing to go back for Hermoine in book 1 to save her from the troll - the perfume christmas gift in PoA- he stands up to Snape when the latter's calling "Hermoine" a know-it-all, and all through GoF we see how much Krum bugs him. I think its been fairly clear that Ron likes Hermoine but is more than a little intimidated by her at times, but when push comes to shove, her cares. On the other side, we Hermoine's reaction when Fleur kisses Ron in book 4, or her anger at Ron in the whole Gof saga - or the fact that of Harry and him, he's the one who makes her cry (the impressions, what not). I think the line in Gof "It took you three years to notice I was a girl, Ron" pretty much sealed the deal on this.

The Hoxcrux - I'm going to read Book 6 again, because my impression was that it was the locket as well, but no one is completely clear on this - theories abound that the liquid destroyed the Hoxcrux, or that it was its own Hoxcrux (don't know how).

[Bearcat729]

I had been thinking about that recently and still wonder how it was obvious? I know they spend a lot of time together during the summer but starting in book 1, they loathed each other. What was it that got them together or saw something in each other? Opposites attract?

As far as the horocrux in the drink, I thought that that was the locket back at Grimmauld since nothing was found in the bottom of the cup except the RAB note?



The horcrux is the locket, which should be at Grimmauld. I figure the liquid that Dumbledore drank was something like a pensive. Memories from Voldemort that would drive a normal wizard insane.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, I can't see the water being a horcrux. That would be one wierd ass horcrux, frankly.

[Crapshoot]

bump - TK/others, do you know other reasonable sites like Mugglenet ? I'm kinda intruiged by some of these fansite.

[dubb93]

Just finished book 6. I'm starting to wonder what one more year at hogwarts could possibly teach harry that could help him against Voldemort? He is completely outclassed against grown up wizards such as Snape, etc. And Voldemort is much more powerfull. Somehow he has to gain this knowledge, and I don't think Hogwarts is where he is going to learn it.

Is it possible that when he returns to Sirius's old house that the ghost of Dumbledore is waiting for him? I know nearly headless nick said that ghosts have a choice upon death? Could Dumbledore chose not to return when he knows Harry is about to fight Voldemort? Also, do pictures of ghosts speak? I don't remember this being dicussed, but I too was wondering why Dumbledore's picture didn't say anything to Harry. Seems out of character.

If not Dumbledore it has to be someone else in my mind. Could he talk Lupin into helping him? Lupin and Tonks could be good teachers, but somehow, even thought people don't see it I think it will be the ghost of Dumbledore that actually teaches Harry the magic in death that he didn't feel comfortable teaching in life.

[Schmidty]

Just finished book 6. I'm starting to wonder what one more year at hogwarts could possibly teach harry that could help him against Voldemort? He is completely outclassed against grown up wizards such as Snape, etc. And Voldemort is much more powerfull. Somehow he has to gain this knowledge, and I don't think Hogwarts is where he is going to learn it.

Is it possible that when he returns to Sirius's old house that the ghost of Dumbledore is waiting for him? I know nearly headless nick said that ghosts have a choice upon death? Could Dumbledore chose not to return when he knows Harry is about to fight Voldemort? Also, do pictures of ghosts speak? I don't remember this being dicussed, but I too was wondering why Dumbledore's picture didn't say anything to Harry. Seems out of character.

If not Dumbledore it has to be someone else in my mind. Could he talk Lupin into helping him? Lupin and Tonks could be good teachers, but somehow, even thought people don't see it I think it will be the ghost of Dumbledore that actually teaches Harry the magic in death that he didn't feel comfortable teaching in life.

Dumbledore isn't dead, and Snape isn't a Death Eater.

[dubb93]

Dumbledore isn't dead, and Snape isn't a Death Eater.

:D

To each his own I guess. Although I'm still unsure on Snape, I'd have a hard time believing DD isn't dead.

[Eaglesfan27]

:D

To each his own I guess. Although I'm still unsure on Snape, I'd have a hard time believing DD isn't dead.
I agree. I think DD is dead, but I don't think Snape is a deatheater. I can't wait for book 7. Does anyone know if there is an estimate on when it will be out?

[Bearcat729]

I agree. I think DD is dead, but I don't think Snape is a deatheater. I can't wait for book 7. Does anyone know if there is an estimate on when it will be out?

She started writing it in January, so current estimate is 2 years from now.

[dubb93]

She started writing it in January, so current estimate is 2 years from now.

isn't the rumor like 7/7/07?

[Bearcat729]

isn't the rumor like 7/7/07?


I haven't heard anything other than she just started writing book 7. I doubt she has it out in a year though.

[Crapshoot]

DD's dead as a doorknob- classic literary device - the previous "king" must die for the new one to thrive - its cyclical, as it were. I was actually reading some of the fansites and came across a good essay on this - I'll see if I can find the link.

[Buccaneer]

I spent this weekend going through all of the casts they made for OotP (as well as the Leaky forum's reaction to them) and knowing who have been casted, it is looking good as to what scenes are in. I really didn't like the movie GoF and apparently JK didn't either (much of it pointed towards that horrible director that 1) didn't care about the book/series and 2) didn't have any interest in doing stuff for the DVD). Anyway, OotP is one of my favorites and it will be interesting to see Staunton as Umbridge and the new chick as Luna.

[Crapshoot]

Yeah - the casting for Umbridge looks perfect.

Bucc- what was your issues with GOF ? I realized they cut out a lot of the character building and the whole Dobby angle (which is fairly standard in novel adaptions IMO), but seeing GOF is partly what made me decide to go read the whole series.

[Buccaneer]

Crappy, I think my reviews are somewhere in this thread. In a nutshell, the pacing sucked (it dragged where it shouldn't and sped up also where it shouldn't) and worse of all, it was filmed and lighted very badly to the point of unwatchability. Put those together with GoF being my least favorite book and a director whose style I don't care for (as oppose to Columbo and Cuaron), it just didn't measure up, imo.

[terpkristin]

As far as the movie GoF, it was horrible!
There were WAY too many liberties taken with character traits, especially with Dumbledore. I hate Michael Gambon and I really the direction did nothing for me.

Alas.

/tk

[Eaglesfan27]

Crappy, I think my reviews are somewhere in this thread. In a nutshell, the pacing sucked (it dragged where it shouldn't and sped up also where it shouldn't) and worse of all, it was filmed and lighted very badly to the point of unwatchability. Put those together with GoF being my least favorite book and a director whose style I don't care for (as oppose to Columbo and Cuaron), it just didn't measure up, imo.

I remember my wife citing just about all of these points after we watched it. We disagreed, but she thought it was a bad movie and she didn't enjoy it because of the reasons you mention here.

[Celeval]

The big reason my wife didn't was the changing of Fudge's character - a pretty serious change, at that.

[Crapshoot]

Fair enough - I can see the arguements, and I did prefer Cuaron. As for favorite books - I think GOF or HBP would be the ones for me.

[Crapshoot]

btw, the HP essay that was referred to me:


Dumbledore's Man Through and Through
Okay, so here it is... The HBP essay I've been promising forever. I hope you all like it... All page numbers are referring to the US Hardcover version. Please let me know what you think!

As I was reading Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince, I faced a conundrum that most Harry Potter fans can admit to having had in some form or another: accepting Dumbledore’s death. The death itself is related to Sirius Black’s death in an abstract manner, but it’s very different from Sirius’ death in that it is definitive. I have yet to see an ‘Albus lives’ theory… Now the big challenge for Harry Potter fans is accepting a death of a character whom we all loved. In this essay, I will propose a reason for Dumbledore’s death, but also a central theme of the books.

At Dumbledore’s funeral “… Harry saw very clearly … how people who cared about him had stood in front of him one by one, his mother, his father, his godfather, and finally Dumbledore, all determined to protect him; but now that was over. He could not let anybody else stand between him and Voldemort … the last and greatest of his protectors had died, and he was more alone than he had ever been before” (HBP645). The reactions to the two deaths (Dumbledore’s and Sirius’s) show this transition’s net effect: Harry becomes a man. Harry is not afraid of standing alone. He recognizes that he no longer needs a protector or parental figure. He is not afraid to stand on his own, and be his own person (however shaped by his parental figures – namely Dumbledore – he may have been). His ability to face a difficult situation while remaining emotionally calm, without concern for what might have happened, but simply what is, with confidence in his abilities, and complete acceptance of the situation is what marks his transition to manhood.

Now that we have looked at Harry’s transition to manhood and is about to embark on his quest to defeat Voldemort. At a (presumably) similar point in Dumbledore’s life he had defeated a dark wizard named Grindelwald, just like Harry will likely defeat Voldemort. What this establishes is a cyclic nature in Harry and Dumbledore’s relationship. This is a core aspect of the books: Dumbledore had to die so Harry, like a star rising in night skies, could rise to power and defeat Voldemort. And one day, Harry too will die, after his battle with Voldemort, after another dark wizard has surfaced, and Harry has mentored the next heroic wizard.

The Harry Potter books aren’t just a coming of age story, they are a dissertation on the role of generations in the supreme battle of god versus evil. Evil is never completely eradicated, because just like good, it is inherent in human nature. Within each generation, evil arises and regrows, regardless of how it existed in previous generations. Dumbledore was Harry’s mentor in the ways of good, but now Harry has become a man. He’s ready to let the old generation retire their fight against evil, and spearhead this generations’ fight against evil: starting with defeating Voldemort.

The nature of Harry and Dumbledore’s relationship, Harry’s life, and the supreme battle of good versus evil, is a cyclic one. The rise of Harry to power oddly corresponds to Dumbledore’s fall. The Harry Potter books are about the cycles of fighting in the constant battle against evil, how it never ends, and each generation has its villains to defeat and heroes to do it. Dumbledore says, “to the well organized mind, death is simply the next great adventure,” because he has acknowledge his place in this cycle, that one day he must die, and Harry will be his successor. Voldemort never wants to die, he never wants to let this cycle go on, and this, more than anything, establishes the very core of his rottenness beyond the Malfoys, the Lestranges, and even Snape. He fears the cycle. But, in book six, Harry embraces it. He is not overwhelmed by Dumbledore’s death because he knows the cycle must continue.

Now, let’s start by discussing some of the things JKR has done to foreshadow Harry’s rise to the level of hero and protector Dumbledore has risen to in the minds of the wizards of the generation.

“Dumbledore’s man through and through, aren’t you, Potter?” (Rufus Scrimgeor, HBP348)

“Dumledore’s man through and through” (Harry, HBP649)

The most obvious meaning of the above statement declares Harry’s loyalty to Dumbledore, but also a much deeper, more important loyalty: Harry thoroughly thinks like Dumbledore and believes in his morals. This means that even though Dumbledore is dead, he will continue to live on in Harry. Harry’s thoughts and actions will continue to be in Dumbledore’s tradition. Essentially, the tradition that follows more in ‘good’ than ‘evil.’ Harry will not be consciously asking himself what Dumbledore would do, but will be doing what he, Harry, would do, which also happens to be what Dumbledore would do. If we accept that Dumbledore’s opinions are those of ‘good,’ then we can see that Harry has made a choice in life to be good. The fact that he has made this choice allows for us to accept Harry as the upcoming hero, the face of good for his generation of wizards – assuming, of course, that he defeats Voldemort.

However, we are all fully aware of the chasm that exists between his magical abilities and Voldemort’s. How is Harry going to defeat a wizard infinitely more powerful and knowledgeable than himself (even if Voldemort is mortal)? JKR offers several different landmarks and foreshadowing to show how Harry is going to develop the skills needed to be the next magical hero. The most obvious of these is Harry’s “omniscience.” Part of the reason watching Dumbledore fail – not only with Sirius but with Snape as well – was so hard for Harry (and probably us as well) was because, particularly through the early books, we see Dumbledore as an all knowing, omniscient figure. When Dumbledore dies, it is Harry who knows all the information, whom everyone else has confidence in. Like Dumbledore, no one questions where he got the information – in the infirmary, when Harry tells everyone why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much, he makes special note of the fact that “nobody asked how Harry knew this” (HBP616). In all my memory of the books, no one ever asked how Dumbledore knew information. It just always seemed something Dumbledore should know, and the only people who wondered how he knew it was the Harry Potter fandom. Also, Harry must decide whom to tell information. In McGonagall’s new office McGonagall asks him what he and Dumbledore “were doing this evening when you left the school” and Harry responds, “I can’t tell you that, Professor” (HBP626) and refuses to tell her. Most important about this interaction is that McGonagall, despite her previous reputation as a strict and respected teacher (and indeed despite her powerful new position as headmaster) acts almost as if Harry was her superior and does not question him further. The last laughable bit is Harry’s relationship to the Minister of Magic. By not telling Scrimgeour the information he wants, Harry has separated himself from the ministry. But, he still commands their respect as a powerful, important wizard.

The most important thing which Harry does is he begins to develop intuition. Possibly Dumbledore’s greatest power was his ability to intuit things. His return to Hogwarts in book one which saved Harry, his collection of memories in book six, his belief in Sirius’s innocence… As much as he was a great wizard, he intuited what was right and true, what to do in any given situation. And Harry begins to show this intuition “skill” in book six – he not only knows Draco is a Death Eater, but was able to intuit even the day Draco would attack (as he hands the Felix Felicis to his nearest and dearest, instructing Hermione as to what to do), even when Dumbledore couldn’t.
Dumbledore even does his part to develop Harry’s intuition, or at least show Harry that intuition is a large part of being a powerful wizard. Firstly, the task Harry was given to get the unaltered memory from Slughorn was huge. Harry had to trust himself to carry out the task. Part of what made Dumbledore all-knowing was his people skills, which were all intuition. While we’re here, I’d also like to draw attention to the Felix Felicis. Harry simply listens to himself as to where he thinks he should be and what he should do: “…it occurred to him how very pleasant it would be to pass the vegetable patch on his walk to Hagrid’s. It was not strictly on the way, but it seemed clear to Harry that this was a whim on which he should act…” (HBP479). He simply listens to his intuition. Already we see Harry begin to embrace his intuition (in the absence of Felix’s help), because at the end of book six he decides to go to Godric’s Hollow – “I think I might go back to Godric’s Hollow … For me, it started there, all of it. I’ve just got a feeling I need to go there” (HBP650). He doesn’t know why, but he just knows that is where he should go next. I doubt we will see Felix Felicis again, because the power and effect of the potion we will come to see, rests in Harry.

But of course, even in spite of these beginnings there is still the question of how Harry is going to develop these magical skills. Harry has discontinued (or will discontinue) his studies at Hogwarts. At first glance, it appears that this is a severe impediment to Harry’s magical learning as it has two main implications: (1) it virtually destroys Harry’s dream of becoming an auror. But Dumbledore was not an auror, yet did more to fight dark wizards than most aurors can likely lay claim to. Certainly, a dream to be an auror can be replaced by a dream to defeat Lord Voldemort as an uberpowerful, skilled, omniscient wizard. (2) We must agree that Harry currently does not have the magical ability to defeat Lord Voldemort. Without a great drain in Voldemort’s strength as Dumbledore had, it can be ascertained that “Expelliarmus!” will not work. I think we can agree that Harry will continue to learn through book seven. But, his education will not be the standard one taught in Hogwarts, and hopefully will begin to prove useful in duel with Voldemort. The active, on-the-job type of learning might prove to be more useful to Harry’s magic, as it will be less theoretical and more practical.

You may then argue that, in spite of whether or not Harry will acquire these magical skills, he never had the pure talent that Dumbledore had. I, however, will argue that Harry has always had comparable talent to Dumbledore, just that we have never noticed it. That’s because Harry showed his proficiency in Defense Against the Dark Arts, but compared with Dumbledore’s matured magical skills, we never realized the true length of Harry’s powers. Although not emphasized, there are certainly elements of Dumbledore’s skills that lack in comparison with others, just as Harry’s do. Dumbledore is not a master at potions – Snape and Slughorn seem to surpass him here. He never became an animagus (as far as we know). Dumbledore has likewise never shown his ability in herbology, astronomy, or divination, among other things. One could argue we just never saw him attempt any of these areas, but I believe we never saw them because it was easier to leave them to their respective experts, who were far better than himself. Dumbledore’s main abilities lie in Transfiguration. We know Harry showed proficiency in defense against the dark arts, and maybe with his adventures in the next book, we will see him develop his skills in charms, as well. I would also like to see him improve skills in occlumency and lleglimancy, which Rowling has hinted to us will be important, due to its prominence in book five.

[Buccaneer]

Not sure if tihis is the best thread to put this in but hints on the final book. Don't want to check, but I bet the mugglenet forums are active again

LONDON — Author J.K. Rowling (javascript:yzwc();siteSearch('J.K. Rowling');) said two characters will die in the last installment of her boy wizard series, and she hinted Harry Potter (javascript:yzwc();siteSearch('Harry Potter');) might not survive either.
"I have never been tempted to kill him off before the final because I've always planned seven books, and I want to finish on seven books," Rowling said on Monday's "Richard and Judy" television show.
"I can completely understand, however, the mentality of an author who thinks, `Well, I'm gonna kill them off because that means there can be no non-author written sequels. So it will end with me, and after I'm dead and gone they won't be able to bring back the character'."
Rowling declined to commit herself about Harry, saying she doesn't want to receive hate mail.

The last book is not finished. But I'm well into it now. I wrote the final chapter in something like 1990, so I've known exactly how the series is going to end," she said.
Rowling said people are sometimes shocked to hear that she wrote the end of book seven before she had a publisher for the first book in the series.
"The final chapter is hidden away, although it's now changed very slightly. One character got a reprieve. But I have to say two die that I didn't intend to die," she said. "A price has to be paid. We are dealing with pure evil here. They don't target extras do they? They go for the main characters. Well, I do."
Rowling is the richest woman in Britain — wealthier than even the queen — with a fortune estimated by Forbes (javascript:yzwc();siteSearch('Forbes');) magazine last year at more than $1 billion.
Whatever she writes next, Rowling is sure of one thing: It won't be as successful as Harry Potter.
"I don't think I'm ever going to have anything like Harry again. You just get one like Harry."

[Crapshoot]

I saw that article as well. My thoughts are that Ron and Hermoine are the two in question - at least one Weasley will go. Though if it was meant to be "breaking" Harry (ie the price of pure evil), I bet Ginny and Hermoine (leaving both him and Ron high and dry), or Ginny and Ron.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, wouldn't it be really fucking something if both Ron and Hermione die and Harry is simply left alone at the end (well I guess Ginny is around in that case). But yeah, a combo if Ron, Hermione, and Ginny could be in the works, but also Harry isn't totally out of the woods, though she does say she's never been tempted to kill him off before.

[Bearcat729]

The Mugglenet thread on this is only 14 pages long in 2 days. I'm pretty sure that is mild for the subject matter.

I'm not sure she'll go through with it. It makes no real sense to kill him in the story(the only reason I could see her doing it is to aviod ever hearing about her writing another Harry Potter book) but I wouldn't be surprised if Harry did die.

I agree that a Weasley will die in this book. Honestly I think more than two people will die (Remus Lupin, Hagrid, or one of the other professors)

[Buccaneer]

I thought it was a foregone conclusion that Snape would die, whether as a good guy or a bad guy.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, I can see it making sense to kill him in the story. He is sort of a savior figure and as the choice goes, he has to decide between what is right and what is easy... and what is more difficult in knowing that you may have to die in order to defeat the ultimate evil.

[ISiddiqui]

I thought it was a foregone conclusion that Snape would die, whether as a good guy or a bad guy.

Is Snape enough to be a "main character". I can see the argument, but I always say "main characters" as Harry, Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, and then Ginny and everyone else as background.

So if Snape dies, that'd be two more. Or maybe Snape lives, throwing us for a loop.

[Crapshoot]

Yeah, wouldn't it be really fucking something if both Ron and Hermione die and Harry is simply left alone at the end (well I guess Ginny is around in that case). But yeah, a combo if Ron, Hermione, and Ginny could be in the works, but also Harry isn't totally out of the woods, though she does say she's never been tempted to kill him off before.

The reason I think (a little) that it will be Ron and Ginny instead of Ron and Hermoine is that those two are the closest to him, and it causes the maximum impact - Harry loses his best friend and the girl - as has been made clear repeatedly, Hermoine is great friends with Harry, but she's clearly a notch below Ron (and now we assume, below Ginny).

Dola - good point on Bucc's behalf regarding Snape. If he is a "good guy", he's definitely one to go. That being said, she said these two were '"unexpected" - wouldn't Snape have been a sure thing a while back ?

[ISiddiqui]

She also said the two who die were two she didn't intend to kill off earlier on. It may also mean that plenty who she DID expect to die will also bite the bucket.

[Bearcat729]

Snape almost has to die after killing Dumbledore. The only way he would survive is if he is never seen in public in book 7

[ISiddiqui]

Snape almost has to die after killing Dumbledore. The only way he would survive is if he is never seen in public in book 7

Remember, Snape is probably pretty damned skilled in the Polyjuice Potion. Then again, I don't think he'd have any trouble hiding even without it. Especially if he secretly (only known to Harry & Pals) helps bring down Voldemort.

[Bearcat729]

Remember, Snape is probably pretty damned skilled in the Polyjuice Potion. Then again, I don't think he'd have any trouble hiding even without it. Especially if he secretly (only known to Harry & Pals) helps bring down Voldemort.


And how would Snape get Harry, Ron and Hermione(who never trusted him to begin with) to believe that he didn't mean to kill Dumbledore?

[ISiddiqui]

And how would Snape get Harry, Ron and Hermione(who never trusted him to begin with) to believe that he didn't mean to kill Dumbledore?

There is always a way. Who knows, maybe the picture of Dumbledore tells Harry outright.

[Celeval]

Yeah... the key is not that two people die, it's two unexpected (to her) people. And one person she expected to die doesn't.

Harry's fate, I think, has been decided since day one. She hasn't been tempted to kill him off earlier, because, duh, it'd ruin the story if he died in book 4. I'm really, really looking forward to this, eventually, though.

[Celeval]

...there's video of the interview (an extended one) available, and it's a pretty good interview, although I think the article above misrepresents some of it.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, they are all trying to outscoop everyone else ;). And Rowling is wiley when revealing plot points :D.

[Franklinnoble]

I suspect Harry and Ginny are the ones to die. Even with a bajillion dollars in the bank, the pressure to create more sequels will be too great if he lives past book 7.

[Marc Vaughan]

I suppose we found out SOMEWHAT why in book 6, but boy do I hope this is resolved in book 7. I felt that the entire "old mans mistakes" and "too trusting bit" were a bit of a wash-over.
Am I the only one who thinks Snape and Dumbledore acted it out to give Dumbledore cover and a spy in the enemy camp? ...

If Dumbledore is meant to be as wise as he's written then any other explanation seems a tad trite to be honest ..

[bosshogg23]

Am I the only one who thinks Snape and Dumbledore acted it out to give Dumbledore cover and a spy in the enemy camp? ...

If Dumbledore is meant to be as wise as he's written then any other explanation seems a tad trite to be honest ..

Thats what my wife believes.

I think Lupin is toast, in werewolf form, killed by Wormtail and his silver hand. Of course I thought this would happen since book 5 so who knows. ;) It seemed the only explanation for having a specifically silver hand to me.

[Qwikshot]

I think killing off Harry would be an impossibility, as well as a franchise downer...I think maybe going off to some magical dimension or something like that. I just don't think it would be possible to do without death threats for the rest of your life.

[Franklinnoble]

Am I the only one who thinks Snape and Dumbledore acted it out to give Dumbledore cover and a spy in the enemy camp? ...

If Dumbledore is meant to be as wise as he's written then any other explanation seems a tad trite to be honest ..

Yeah, I'm also in the "Dumbledore isn't REALLY dead" camp.

[Barkeep49]

I think Dumbledore is dead and I've been saying Harry dies while killing Voldemort since Book 3.

[ISiddiqui]

Dumbledore is dead. Rowling has made it a point to say that once someone dies in her books they remain dead (this after Black fell through the curtain). It would be incredibly cheap to bring Dumbledore back.

[moriarty]

I think killing off Harry would be an impossibility, as well as a franchise downer...I think maybe going off to some magical dimension or something like that. I just don't think it would be possible to do without death threats for the rest of your life.

I think Rowling has to kill him off to end the series, otherwise people are going to hound her for the rest of her life ... 'when are you going to do another sequel, blah, blah'. She'll never be able to move onto anything new (assuming she wants to) unless he kills off poor Harry.

I don't recall the details of Dumbledore being killed, but someone mentioned that it was possible one of the good guys (whatever they're called) took some Beetlejuice potion (or whatever that stuff is) and sacrificed themselves as Dumbledore so big D could work in secret and protect Snape's identity. Frankly, I'd prefer to thing Big D did die.

[ISiddiqui]

Polyjuice potion.

[Crapshoot]

Dumbledore is dead. Rowling has made it a point to say that once someone dies in her books they remain dead (this after Black fell through the curtain). It would be incredibly cheap to bring Dumbledore back.

"". No way he comes back. His portrait might act as a proxy for him, and we might see a scence akin to the graveyard in GOF (where Lily and James are "present"), but he's not alive.

[ISiddiqui]

Maybe even a Ben Kenobi "If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and become kind of a spirit voice guiding Harry.

[Franklinnoble]

Maybe even a Ben Kenobi "If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and become kind of a spirit voice guiding Harry.

Yeah... and then it will turn out that Voldemort is really Harry's father, and Hermione is really his sister.

[ISiddiqui]

:D

[Celeval]

Thats what my wife believes.

I think Lupin is toast, in werewolf form, killed by Wormtail and his silver hand. Of course I thought this would happen since book 5 so who knows. ;) It seemed the only explanation for having a specifically silver hand to me.

JKR has specifically stated in an interview that Wormtail and his silver hand do not kill Lupin.

I think the Lupin fight has to be he and Bill v. whatshisface, the big bad wolf.

[bosshogg23]

JKR has specifically stated in an interview that Wormtail and his silver hand do not kill Lupin.

I think the Lupin fight has to be he and Bill v. whatshisface, the big bad wolf.

Well damn there goes my only realistic theory.

Im starting to come around on the Voldemort being Harry's dad and Hermione his sister thoughts now ;)

[Mustang]

Harry is a dead man walking. He is the last Horcrux and will have to sacrifice himself to end Voldemort.

Just my opinion...

[Buccaneer]

Even though I have not seen this thought anywhere yet, I am wondering how WB's recent money troubles will affect the Potter movies. I know that the Potter movies are a cash cow but with WB taking a bath on Poseidon and Superman coming in below expectations, I wonder how much budget they'll give to the current movie and the last two?

[ISiddiqui]

Superman is coming in below expectations?! It's hit around $85 mil already hasn't it?

[Buccaneer]

Superman is coming in below expectations?! It's hit around $85 mil already hasn't it?

Consider this (and what's coming next week)

If Superman Returns (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348150/) hadn't cost about $204 million to make and an additional $40 million to develop over the past 19 years, the $84.2 million that the movie earned since it opened late Tuesday night would be cause for celebration at Warner Bros., the studio that produced it. However, analysts pointed out that the estimated $52.2 million that it earned over the three-day weekend trailed last year's War of the Worlds (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0407304/)' $64.9 million over the comparable weekend and Spider-Man 2 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0316654/)'s $88.2 million in 2004. Moreover, it is expected to be sunk next week by Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0383574/) and continue to plunge after that. Meanwhile, rival studios are reportedly upset over Warner Bros. decision to include 10:00 p.m. screenings on Tuesday in its total for Wednesday, thereby giving the appearance that the film performed far better at the box office for its Wednesday premiere than it actually did. L.A. Weekly columnist Nikki Finke quoted one rival studio exec as saying, "It's not unfair to note that Fox's X-Men 3 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376994/) had $130 mil[lion] after five days and is ending up making $235 mil or so. If the same ratio holds and Superman Returns does 1/3 less, than it would not make $200 mil and that would be a disappointment."

[Barkeep49]

Harry Potter will get made without a problem. WB would have NO problems finding someone willing to help finance it. In fact they already have a financing deal in place with Morgan Stanley, I believe, but that deal excludes HP. I'm sure if WB offered HP Morgan would be happy to help finance it.

[ISiddiqui]

The difference, IMO, is that I think Superman will have more staying power than XMen3. I've heard much better about Superman than XMen 3 and only $100mil after its first 5 days isn't that impressive of a number (probably because of negative reviews of XMen 3).

[Buccaneer]

That's true, they could go co-opt which we are seeing more of lately.

I did read that when Poseidon bombed, WB canceled about 1/3 of the movies that were scheduled to go into production this year. Also, they moved Superman to Wednesday hoping to create some momentum going into the weekend and up against PotC.