ESRB Revokes "M" Rating for GTA: San Andreas

[General Mike]

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3142154

ESRB Revokes "M" Rating for GTA: San Andreas
Rockstar suspends manufacturing the game
by Jane Pinckard (http://www.1up.com/do/my1Up?publicUserId=5629882), 07/20/2005

The ESRB announced today that upon conclusion of their investigation into the "Hot Coffee" mod, the rating of "M" for Rockstar's Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (http://www.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=2018918) will be changed to an "AO", or Adults Only. Patricia Vance, president of the ESRB said, "After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a full rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game." She also noted that "the credibility and the utility of the initial ESRB rating has been seriously undermined."

Furthermore, the ESRB has changed its ratings standards. Game publishers will be required to submit for board review all relevant content on a disc, even that which is not intended to be accessed. The ESRB also calls on developers and publishers to "proactively protect their games from illegal modifications by third parties."

Take-Two and Rockstar have issued a statement (http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050720/205870.html?.v=1) saying they will fully comply with the ESRB. Rockstar has ceased manufacturing the game and has started looking into ways to increase security to prevent access to the mod in future copies. They will also be sending "AO" stickers to retailers who may want to keep the game in stock.

In the statement Take-Two's president and CEO Paul Eibeler said, "Take-Two and Rockstar Games have always worked to keep mature-themed video game content out of the hands of children and we will continue to work closely with the ESRB and community leaders to improve and better promote a reliable rating system to help consumers make informed choices about which video games are appropriate for each individual." He added, "We are deeply concerned that the publicity surrounding these unauthorized modifications has caused the game to be misrepresented to the public and has detracted from the creative merits of this award winning product."

A spokeperson from Rockstar told 1UP in a phone call that Rockstar acted responsibly in the rating process. "Based on the ruling, we see this issue as a cutting-room floor issue," he said. "In the submission process, [the controverisal element] wasn't in our minds. The elements were in the game, but they were broken. They are not meant to be accessed in a retail copy of the game." He also confirmed that Rockstar is doing everything they can to comply with the ESRB. "We understand that the ESRB needs to set a precedent," he said, "and we support this." He also said that Rockstar has no plans to sue any modders over this issue. "We've been very supportive of the modding community," he said. "They are fans who love the games."

Take-Two announced that, as a result of possible fallout from the scandal, they would be lowering their fiscal projections for the year ending July 31st to $160 million from $170 million.

Will this be the conclusion of the Hot Coffee brouhaha? Probably not, as it's far too juicy a topic for politicians.

Ryan (http://www.1up.com/do/my1Up?publicUserId=4547486) points out that current copies with the "M" rating are sure to be collector's items. Be sure to check prices on Ebay soon--only about a bazillion copies left!

And stay tuned to 1UP for the latest developments in the story.

[cody8200]

The whole thing is dumb. The ESRB is doing what it has to do due to pressure but the politicians are killing me with this...the game already had murder and a ridiculous amount of cursing in it, whats the big deal about sex?

[Airhog]

this country is so wrapped up in keeping our kids from abstaining from sex that they are missing the bigger picture. Just look at the europeans, when was the last time you heard about a drive by shooting in munich?

[Schmidty]

Should have been AO in the first place. The game is piece of garbage.

[Easy Mac]

Never, but I have heard of drive by screwings there http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8144195/

Now I have to go buy the game.

[ISiddiqui]

It just didn't have murder. It encourages murder and cop killing! That's kind of what makes the game so much fun, really. Running from the cops after killing a lot of gang members is great fun.

[cody8200]

It just didn't have murder. It encourages murder and cop killing! That's kind of what makes the game so much fun, really. Running from the cops after killing a lot of gang members is great fun.


Oh I'm well aware. I just had a mission where I had to kill a corrupt cop. It was great to get revenge for his past misdeeds. I'm about 55 percent done or so. I love the game but I gotta say its not for kids. What parents are allowing their kids to play it anyway?

[Easy Mac]

It just didn't have murder. It encourages murder and cop killing! That's kind of what makes the game so much fun, really. Running from the cops after killing a lot of gang members is great fun.
Promoting violence by blacks and italians... Good. Thinking they should procreate... bad.

[Schmidty]

I find it hilarious that a lot of the people who say it's bad to wave a confederate flag (flags are stupid, BTW), find that games like this are ok to distribute to anyone.

Not that the game should be illegal, as that would be unconstitutional, but what's worse: A horribly violent game that encourages violence, cop-killing and theft, or a Flag that encourages violence, race-killing, and rebellion (to some people)? Not sure? Me either. That's why games like this that are marketed so easily to kids are garbage.

[cody8200]

I find it hilarious that a lot of the people who say it's bad to wave a confederate flag (flags are stupid, BTW), find that games like this are ok to distribute to anyone.

Not that the game should be illegal, as that would be unconstitutional, but what's worse: A horribly violent game that encourages violence, cop-killing and theft, or a Flag that encourages violence, race-killing, and rebellion (to some people)? Not sure? Me either. That's why games like this that are marketed so easily to kids are garbage.

I agree the game should be marketed to an older(above 16) audience exclusively but that is difficult to do or at least that is what the beer and cigarette companies would say.

As far as the flag argument, I dont see a flag(no matter its old meaning) as anything to be up in arms about...unless its used publicly in an offocial manner by the government(in the case of the confederate flag). Otherwise its an individuals own choice whether he wants to be labeled a racist and bigot because of the flag he flies.

[Easy Mac]

Not that the game should be illegal, as that would be unconstitutional, but what's worse: A horribly violent game that encourages violence, cop-killing and theft, or a Flag that encourages violence, race-killing, and rebellion (to some people)? Not sure? Me either. That's why games like this that are marketed so easily to kids are garbage.
Encourages? Yes, they're telling the kids of America to go kill a cop. Hell, football is far more violent than any video game because you actually hit people. I guess we're telling our kids to hit the shit out of someone, cuz there's no consequences... Perhaps we should think about that.... oh wait... whats that... ITS A FUCKING GAME.... wait, whats that... so is GTA? Its a fantasy world. There's no underlying idea of hatred in this game no more than Mario Brothers is an excersize in the destroying of plants. I had to kill fucking turtles and ducks in that game, perhaps PETA should come get me.

[Easy Mac]

I agree the game should be marketed to an older(above 16) audience exclusively but that is difficult to do or at least that is what the beer and cigarette companies would say.

Its no different than Wedding Crashers being pitched to teens. Its what entertainment companies do to raise profits, its not exclusive to the gaming world.

[Solecismic]

I met with the ESRB people way back when I had delusions about becoming a real player in this business. They are entirely dependent on a publisher self-reporting all content in the game. I think this rating stuff is a giant load of cow cookies, but they are the victims here.

Meanwhile, Hillary's acting like the First Amendment only applies to things she, pardon me, personally approves. I hope the Dems can come up with something better in 2008.

[Easy Mac]

I met with the ESRB people way back when I had delusions about becoming a real player in this business. They are entirely dependent on a publisher self-reporting all content in the game. I think this rating stuff is a giant load of cow cookies, but they are the victims here.

Meanwhile, Hillary's acting like the First Amendment only applies to things she, pardon me, personally approves. I hope the Dems can come up with something better in 2008.
I just took a crap, so I was planning on being its running mate in '08... that has to be better.

However, I did hear that some of the moves Colin Powell is making in the business world is so he can get aligned with the right business people and make a run in '08... as a Democrat. I'd vote for that man in a heart beat, Republican or Democrat.

[ISiddiqui]

Promoting violence by blacks and italians... Good. Thinking they should procreate... bad.
LOL! Times like these I'm sad to see QOTM go.

[Schmidty]

Encourages? Yes, they're telling the kids of America to go kill a cop. Hell, football is far more violent than any video game because you actually hit people. I guess we're telling our kids to hit the shit out of someone, cuz there's no consequences... Perhaps we should think about that.... oh wait... whats that... ITS A FUCKING GAME.... wait, whats that... so is GTA? Its a fantasy world. There's no underlying idea of hatred in this game no more than Mario Brothers is an excersize in the destroying of plants. I had to kill fucking turtles and ducks in that game, perhaps PETA should come get me.

Not every kid is stable enough, or smart enough to know the difference. If they didn't market it on TV so much, I'd have no problem.

[cody8200]

I met with the ESRB people way back when I had delusions about becoming a real player in this business. They are entirely dependent on a publisher self-reporting all content in the game. I think this rating stuff is a giant load of cow cookies, but they are the victims here.

Meanwhile, Hillary's acting like the First Amendment only applies to things she, pardon me, personally approves. I hope the Dems can come up with something better in 2008.


That what I dont understand abouther position...shes supposed to be this very liberal democrat. What is she doing? Playing the role of Al Gore's wife trying to clean up the entertainment industry. I thought democrats are usually for less inhibition when it comes to art and entertainment?


To easy

While it may not be different, that does not make it right. Of course its no different from other entertainment mediums, like I had previously mentioned; many other products advertise to teenagers as well (beer and smokes). I do not believe for a second that playing a violent videogame as an adult makes you more likely to be violent. I do believe that for teenagers and children there is a more likley chance that you could become violent. There is little doubt in my mind that teenagers and children can be easily convinced of something (cops are bad). It may not make them go out and kill cops but it could definetely have a negative impact on their respect for police officers in the future. I play GTA games and my respect for life, police officers, etc is no different than before. This may not be so for teenagers and children.

[ISiddiqui]

Not every kid is stable enough, or smart enough to know the difference. If they didn't market it on TV so much, I'd have no problem.
Yeah? And where are the parents in all this. After all, 'M' doesn't stand for 10 and above. Why blame companies for bad parenting?

[ISiddiqui]

That what I dont understand abouther position...shes supposed to be this very liberal democrat.
Nah... she's positioning herself as a moderate Democrat in a Lieberman mold.

[cody8200]

I just took a crap, so I was planning on being its running mate in '08... that has to be better.

However, I did hear that some of the moves Colin Powell is making in the business world is so he can get aligned with the right business people and make a run in '08... as a Democrat. I'd vote for that man in a heart beat, Republican or Democrat.


If Hillary is the Dem's 'man' in 2008 the Republicans could run Ronald Reagan Jr and still win. As a matter of fact, any man they would run would win. The country isnt ready for a female president. I wouldnt have a problem per se with it but I just dont see it happening anytime soon. Your right about Powell though, I'd vote for him. However, I heard he wasnt interested a while back.

[Crapshoot]

What fucking bullshit. Its rated M, which means 17 and over already. The puritanical idiots in this country who think sex is evil while violence is "building character" are Victorian at best in their prudishness.

[Schmidty]

Yeah? And where are the parents in all this. After all, 'M' doesn't stand for 10 and above. Why blame companies for bad parenting?

I always find this argument to be hilarious. You have kids, I assume? You are able to get inside every parent's head and judge, I assume?

That argument is a cop-out.

What if someone makes the same argument about gun-control or something? I mean, come on. If we can protect kids by making it more difficult for them to find material that is absolutely inapproporiate for them, why wouldn't we? Because our "party" is in disagreement? Bleh. This country and it's robots suck sometimes.

[cody8200]

What fucking bullshit. Its rated M, which means 17 and over already. The puritanical idiots in this country who think sex is evil while violence is "building character" are Victorian at best in their prudishness.

Puritanical idiots like Hillary Clinton (the liberal-moderate democrat)?

[mrsimperless]

GTA promotes violence. There should be a mandatory waiting time of at least an hour from when you stop playing the game until you're allowed to drive a car. I don't know how many times I've gotten into my car and wanted to just floor it so I could hurry up and get to the tattoo store.

Evilness aside, the game is one of the best I've ever played of any genre. Not only is it fun as hell, but I haven't laughed so hard playing a video game since NOLF.

[Crapshoot]

Puritanical idiots like Hillary Clinton (the liberal-moderate democrat)?

Notice that I specifically didn't highlight the religous right- puritans or know-it-better's (their leftist equivalent - and yes Hilary is one). This isn't partisanship, so don't try and make it one- this is the Clinton's and Leiberman's and the matching idiots on the right. As a general issue, America is just remarkably hypocritical on sex - and as compared to violence, its fairly laughable.

[illinifan999]

So is the adults only label mean only people 18 and up can buy it? And the current rating is M which means only 17 and up can buy it? Or am I mistaken? If I'm not, what's the point?

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Wonder what Joe Scarborough is thinking about this.
Oh and is this the 1st game ever to have an AO rating?

[cody8200]

So is the adults only label mean only people 18 and up can buy it? And the current rating is M which means only 17 and up can buy it? Or am I mistaken? If I'm not, what's the point?


Im not sure but I think most retailers like Wal Mart wont sell AO games.

[bob]

GTA promotes violence. There should be a mandatory waiting time of at least an hour from when you stop playing the game until you're allowed to drive a car. I don't know how many times I've gotten into my car and wanted to just floor it so I could hurry up and get to the tattoo store.

That's the problem with Burnout... Every time I play that game, the next time I'm driving for real I look at every intersection to see how I can cause the most damage at this crash junction... :)

[General Mike]

People who complain about content in video games are the same people who take their 10 year olds to R rated movies.

[Icy]

So is the adults only label mean only people 18 and up can buy it? And the current rating is M which means only 17 and up can buy it? Or am I mistaken? If I'm not, what's the point?


If a 17 years old "kid" watches porn, his eyes turn red and he goes to hell, if a 18 years old "man" watches porn, nothing happends as he is a real man.


We suffer that in Spain with Roll games, some years ago, a 16 years old kid took a samurai sable he had and cut his parents heads. His lawyer said he did it because he loved Roll games and his brain thought he was playing a game when he did that. Since that, we had tons of studies at TV, magazines etc about roll games and tons of psicologist talking about it etc. During that year in Spain if you said you like roll games lots of ppl thought you could be an assasin some day, even not know what the hell was a roll game.

This proves how stupid can ppl be sometimes and how TV and magazines love to make money from the fears and ignorance of stupid ppl.

[stevew]

GTA promotes violence. There should be a mandatory waiting time of at least an hour from when you stop playing the game until you're allowed to drive a car. I don't know how many times I've gotten into my car and wanted to just floor it so I could hurry up and get to the tattoo store.

Evilness aside, the game is one of the best I've ever played of any genre. Not only is it fun as hell, but I haven't laughed so hard playing a video game since NOLF.


At 30 years old, i feel the same way as you do. Its hard to play GTA, and then go out driving and immediately function in the real world for me.

[Raiders Army]

Yeah? And where are the parents in all this. After all, 'M' doesn't stand for 10 and above. Why blame companies for bad parenting?
I totally agree with this. I understand Schmidty's position, but ultimately are you going to blame the product or the parents? I think the end responsibility lies with the parents.

[Draft Dodger]

Im not sure but I think most retailers like Wal Mart wont sell AO games.

yep - WalMart, Best Buy and Target all announced that they were pulling the game. Take Two has said their sales could drop by $50 Million+ this quarter (not sure if that is from lost sales due to the game having to be repackaged or if that's what they expect to lose from the big boys not carrying their games).

You know, I really, really like the idea of ratings for games, movies, TV shows and music but the implementation is just terrible. Here's a game that's as violent as anything out there...but as soon as s-e-x is added to the mix, it's suddenly changed to 18 and over. It's the same with movies - some of the stories about how a movie had to be edited ever so slightly to get a different rating just make you shake your head.

[Marc Vaughan]

I totally agree with this. I understand Schmidty's position, but ultimately are you going to blame the product or the parents? I think the end responsibility lies with the parents.

I agree with this whole heartedly, as a parent myself I think how I behave and allow them to behave has a lot to do with how they grow up.

Strangely enough though I have found that some games/films they 'allegedly' (according to ratings) should be able to watch I'd never let them watch and vice-versa some 15/18 rated films I'm happy for them to watch.

[stevew]

If Take two made the same exact game, and set it in some alien invaded future and have you shoot at alien pedestrians, and robot cops, there's no way they would have the troubles they do now. Granted, nobody would probably want to play that game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Strangely enough though I have found that some games/films they 'allegedly' (according to ratings) should be able to watch I'd never let them watch and vice-versa some 15/18 rated films I'm happy for them to watch.

Was just talking about that very thing last night oddly enough. (Reading a review of "Bad News Bears" & talking to someone who had attended the "Dukes of Hazzard" premiere led to the topic in case anyone is curious).

As a parent, I think the ratings (games/movies/whatever) are a tool that you can use for a general guide, but that's about it. We all have our own "parenting things", you might not agree with mine, I might not agree with yours,etc., but hopefully we can nearly all agree that part of the job of being a parent means that you're as aware as reasonably possible of what your child is seeing, hearing, and doing.

[TroyF]

Not every kid is stable enough, or smart enough to know the difference. If they didn't market it on TV so much, I'd have no problem.


Just to make sure I have this straight, your reasoning is that every kid isn't stable enough to handle it.

Where do we draw THAT line?

The sad thing is this BS should have ended with the D&D scare in the early 80's. "Kids are killing themselves because of this role playing game, it needs to be stopped, not ever kid can handle an alternate reality."

The game has an M rating. M. 17 and over. If your 16 year old is playing it on a nightly basis, it's up to you as a parent to do something about it.

But why are we stopping at violent video games? I read IT when I was in junior high. Ya know, the Stephen King book about a clown killing everyone in site. Also had a teen gang bang in it. Violence galore.

Should we ban that one because some kids are afraid of clowns and it contains sex? Get real.

The saddest part about this is how game vendors are now going to have to work hard to make sure alterations aren't made to their games. This means less third party mods. What happens if some jack ass turns all the players in Madden into naked supermodels. Will EA have to pull the game from the shelves and lock everything?

God, this just pisses me off. I was just starting to warm up to Hillary and she pulls this garbage. Ugh. . . go away, just go away.

[Raiders Army]

There is no doubting the fact that the widespread availability of sexually explicit and graphically violent video games makes the challenge of parenting much harder

[It]has so many demeaning messages about women and so encourages violent imagination and activities and it scares parents.... They're playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them. You know, that's kind of hard to digest.

The fact that her husband spread sexually explicit information throughout the media must've escaped her. :rolleyes:

[Maple Leafs]

I didn't even know there was a higher rating than 'M'... if GTA doesn't get an AO rating on violence along, I can't imagine that it's even possible to get the rating (unless you show a boobie, I guess).

[cody8200]

I didn't even know there was a higher rating than 'M'... if GTA doesn't get an AO rating on violence along, I can't imagine that it's even possible to get the rating (unless you show a boobie, I guess).


Actually showing a boobie wont get you an AO rating. Their was that one game called BMXXX that was some kind of racing game that showed women topless a few years back. Pretty positive it had an M rating. I dont know where they draw the line.

[moriarty]

Ok, I'm obviously very un-hip, but could someone explain to me what the "Hot Coffee" mod is/does?

[Mustang]

The saddest part about this is how game vendors are now going to have to work hard to make sure alterations aren't made to their games. This means less third party mods. What happens if some jack ass turns all the players in Madden into naked supermodels. Will EA have to pull the game from the shelves and lock everything?


I thought the Mod just accessed content that was already there in the first place? Just made it accessible? As opposed to a mod where you would modify the skins of the 3d models to achieve the boobie affect in your above example...

I'm glad our politicians are tackling this issue instead of some of the harder issues such as health care, gas prices, war in Iraq.. :rolleyes:

[Surtt]

I thought the Mod just accessed content that was already there in the first place? Just made it accessible? As opposed to a mod where you would modify the skins of the 3d models to achieve the boobie affect in your above example...

I'm glad our politicians are tackling this issue instead of some of the harder issues such as health care, gas prices, war in Iraq.. :rolleyes:

This is a hack.
You need to illegally alter the game to view this.
Lets not focus on our kids illegal activity, in the real world.
(PARENTS, if you kids can down loading this hack, they can download much more explicit sex movies.)

This is just like some one breaking into my home and then suing me when he breaks his leg.

[rkmsuf]

but why is it even on the disk to begin with

[Mustang]

You need to illegally alter the game to view this.


Bah, I don't think it is illegal to modify a game for your own personal use. It is yours.. (not talking about distribution here...).

It is the same as buying a car, stripping the paint off and then realizing there is a naked woman etched into the metal that the paint covered up then having Ford say "Gee.. we didn't think you'd actually find that".

Lesson learned for companies for cds/dvds/games.. if you put it on the disk. People WILL find it...

[Surtt]

Bah, I don't think it is illegal to modify a game for your own personal use. It is yours.. (not talking about distribution here...).

It is the same as buying a car, stripping the paint off and then realizing there is a naked woman etched into the metal that the paint covered up then having Ford say "Gee.. we didn't think you'd actually find that".

Lesson learned for companies for cds/dvds/games.. if you put it on the disk. People WILL find it...


Game maker sues over nude volleyball
Published: February 10, 2005, 10:51 AM PST

Game publisher Tecmo announced Wednesday that it has sued users of an Internet message board that distributes hacks for its games, including several that remove the bikinis from players in a popular volleyball game.

[Subby]

As a parent, I think the ratings (games/movies/whatever) are a tool that you can use for a general guide, but that's about it. We all have our own "parenting things", you might not agree with mine, I might not agree with yours,etc., but hopefully we can nearly all agree that part of the job of being a parent means that you're as aware as reasonably possible of what your child is seeing, hearing, and doing. Absolutely. Agree with you 100% here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Absolutely. Agree with you 100% here.

Well thanks Subby, we don't get to agree all that often ;)

I'm gonna add another thought here too, just avoiding a dola.

I'll use GTA as an example, but this really applies to games, movies, etc. in general. I've known about the content of the GTA games for quite a while now, mostly because of sites like this one & my general interest in niche games that ends up exposing me to info about games outside my own interests ... but how the heck is the average parent supposed to find this info outside of the ratings system on the box? I mean, I know they could theoretically do what I've done, but I think we fall into the trap of thinking "everybody uses the 'net" if we believe that's the solution.

So ... other than the ratings system, what can parents do prior to buying a game & then discovering that it isn't suitable for their kid/acceptable to them as parents? And I'm talking about realistic solutions for all parents, not just the most techno-savvy ones.

At this point, that eliminates the method that I use (i.e. go to FOFC & ask), I don't believe asking them all to have subscriptions to 1 or more electronic gaming magazines is reasonable either, video game reviews in newspapers are sparse at best & of questionable utility from what I've seen (much like movie reviews for that matter, you're getting things filtered by a source often much different than your own independent opinions). So ... what steps other than the ratings can we recommend for parents who want to do the right thing & monitor their kids game activities before they make a non-refundable purchase?

[Mustang]

Game maker sues over nude volleyball
Published: February 10, 2005, 10:51 AM PST

Game publisher Tecmo announced Wednesday that it has sued users of an Internet message board that distributes hacks for its games, including several that remove the bikinis from players in a popular volleyball game.

Key word there is distributes. Personally, I don't see how they could sue those people without also suing people that might have made seemingly innocent mods.. say, what if someone made a hack that made all the players in clown suits. I'm sure a lawyer would bring up that question as to why their clients were being targeted. You might as well suggest that a company can sue anyone for using a product for anything other than the intent it was designed for.

[Mustang]

So ... other than the ratings system, what can parents do prior to buying a game & then discovering that it isn't suitable for their kid/acceptable to them as parents? And I'm talking about realistic solutions for all parents, not just the most techno-savvy ones.


I think it is the parent's responsibility to at least learn a little about their child's hobbies and interests even before it gets to this point whether it is video games or astronomy.

$50 for a video game is a decent chunk a' change. When I personally buy a video game, I want to know what the game is about before I spend my money so, if you take your child to Wal-mart to buy a video game that he really wants (say GTA), why would you just buy it for him without knowing at least what it is about? Or, if they are getting an allowance, wouldn't you at least want to know where their money is going? You can't just live in a vacuum to what your child is interested in otherwise these types of situations occur where they are doing something you don't approve of but then pass the buck to someone else. Not like this was a disney game that had sexual content unlocked.. it was a M rated game in the first place...

[Surtt]

Key word there is distributes. Personally, I don't see how they could sue those people without also suing people that might have made seemingly innocent mods.. say, what if someone made a hack that made all the players in clown suits. I'm sure a lawyer would bring up that question as to why their clients were being targeted. You might as well suggest that a company can sue anyone for using a product for anything other than the intent it was designed for.

The point I was trying to make is: out of the box, you can not access this stuff.
The only way to access it is to physically modify the code, which, at a minimum, is a violation of you end user license.
They are changing the rating on the game assuming everyone will hack the game.

We are all guilty until proven innocent and need protection from ourselves.

[Maple Leafs]

So ... what steps other than the ratings can we recommend for parents who want to do the right thing & monitor their kids game activities before they make a non-refundable purchase?One suggestion: ask the guy behind the counter at the store. They usually know all the games pretty well and will probably tell you if something isn't appropriate. Sure, they may lose a sale, but if you make it clear that you're looking to buy something and just want to make sure you pick the right game they'll probably steer you away from anything that wouldn't be a good fit.

[ShaqFu]

This is so stupid. The ESRB and the government are going to kill the video game business. The game should remain Rated M. This is like changing a movie from R to NC-17. However, even Rated R movies can have a scene of sex or nudity.

My understanding is that this is a mod and not intended to be in the retail version of the game.

[ShaqFu]

Meanwhile, Hillary's acting like the First Amendment only applies to things she, pardon me, personally approves. I hope the Dems can come up with something better in 2008.

Hillary lost my vote over this. She's trying to be like Lieberman.

Puritanical idiots like Hillary Clinton (the liberal-moderate democrat)?


It's interesting how it is mostly the Democrats are pushing for censorship. You would think it would be the other way around. It's sad. Don't the politicians realize what will happen once you start censoring stuff?

If Take-Two Interactive was smart they would bypass the ESRB. Sell the game direct and through channels willing to sell the game. After today, any value the ESRB had is shattered. I would bet that there are other games out there with unlockable stuff like this.

It's interesting to note that there are multiple versios of Playboy: The Mansion and the latest LSL game. The AO versions were downloadable only. I bet the content is actually there somewhere in the retail version.

[Marc Vaughan]

Key word there is distributes. Personally, I don't see how they could sue those people without also suing people that might have made seemingly innocent mods.. say, what if someone made a hack that made all the players in clown suits. I'm sure a lawyer would bring up that question as to why their clients were being targeted. You might as well suggest that a company can sue anyone for using a product for anything other than the intent it was designed for.

Hacking a game is illegal - many developers turn a blind eye to such hacks if they're innocent ... but even the most media obtuse person here must realise that many hackers do so to create illegal copies of the game and publishers tend to sue these people when they're caught.

The case of hacks to turn games into smut isn't something new - some of you might remember the 'nude raider' hacks many years ago and similar things have been done on other games for many years (ie. tetris with backdrops of dubious persuasion) ...

In the past however these have avoided the eyes of the media generally or if given column inches were mainly as a 'sad isn't it' kick at geeks - this time it appears to have been recieved somewhat more controversially in America ... for whatever reason.

[Marc Vaughan]

PS> The idea of programmers 'protecting' against this is utterly farcical imho, its impossible to protect against someone hacking something illegal into your game once its on their computer if they really want to.

Plus as with most things the majority (of non-warez) hackers are attempting to enhance the game innocently and to prevent them from being able to would diminish many peoples enjoyment of the games in question, look at all the mods available for Quake etc. ...

[Barkeep49]

Marc isn't this slightly different in that the content appears to have been programmed into the game and then removed. My understanding is that all the hack does is activate a feature that was included at somepoint and then removed.

[cody8200]

Marc isn't this slightly different in that the content appears to have been programmed into the game and then removed. My understanding is that all the hack does is activate a feature that was included at somepoint and then removed.


Exactly. The mod adds no NEW content at all. It simply remove4s a switch so the sex scenes are activated.

[bronconick]

You know, I understand the viewpoint that you can't monitor your kids' every move, but in the case of GTA, and most every video game, it's a 20- 60 hour, if not longer game. I don't expect parents to catch their kid watching a 10 minute porn or sneaking a beer or whatever, but if your kid is playing this game for 60 hours, you almost have to notice. Hell, my dad used to catch me if I had music that was obviously full of cursing (some rap, an Adam Sandler cd I had) and he took a hammer to them.

[rkmsuf]

the fact that it's possible at all to unlock a sex scene and it in fact was done smells of publicity to me.


I mean what's next. The Skydog humping penquin easter egg code?

*shudders*

[Maple Leafs]

Marc isn't this slightly different in that the content appears to have been programmed into the game and then removed. My understanding is that all the hack does is activate a feature that was included at somepoint and then removed.
It's actually somewhat similar in concept to the "hack" that unlocked the minor league team names in the last EHM release, isn't it?

[korme]

Adults Only! Hell yea I'm buying this for sure now!

[ISiddiqui]

It's the same with movies - some of the stories about how a movie had to be edited ever so slightly to get a different rating just make you shake your head.
Yep, I remember that "Kill Bill, vol. 1" avoided an AO (or NC-17) rating because during the big fight scene at the end, the movie went to black and white and thus you couldn't see RED blood, so it was ok to be R rated. WTF?!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[ShaqFu]

Yep, I remember that "Kill Bill, vol. 1" avoided an AO (or NC-17) rating because during the big fight scene at the end, the movie went to black and white and thus you couldn't see RED blood, so it was ok to be R rated. WTF?!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Screw the ESRB and MPAA both.

[Northwood_DK]

This is fun.
A 85-year old lady got the M-rated game for her 14-year old grandson but now sues Rockstar Games and Take Two Interactive for false, misleading and deceptive practices.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/27/game.lawsuit.ap/index.html

[Marc Vaughan]

Personally I don't play the GTA games for reasons of my own - but I have to admit I don't see what the fuss is about, you can get movies in England with lesser ratings and more graphic smut than is shown in the game and I'd be pretty sure that the same is true in America ...

PS> The lady who bought a game rated for 17 year olds and above for a 14 year old should be told to sod off politely by any sane judge surely - all she's bringing to peoples attention is her ability to circumvent sensible restrictions, does she also purchase cigarettes for her grandson? ....

[Ryan S]

What exactly is the difference between an AO and an M rating? Seems to me like the M rating is enough in this case.

[Wolfpack]

I think the AO rating means essentially that the games are kept under lock-and-key and that ID must be shown to even think about getting them, whereas M is still available on the normal shelves and chances are the clerks aren't going to be enforcing the rating stringently.

It also means that several mainstream retailers like Wal-Mart and Best Buy automatically yank their copies from the shelves and never sell another one as they are not in the business of selling "AO" games. That's where GTA is going to get punished most.

[JonInMiddleGA]

What exactly is the difference between an AO and an M rating? Seems to me like the M rating is enough in this case.

http://www.esrb.org/esrbratings_guide.asp#descriptors

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language.

ADULTS ONLY
Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.

[Axxon]

Marc isn't this slightly different in that the content appears to have been programmed into the game and then removed. My understanding is that all the hack does is activate a feature that was included at somepoint and then removed.

*COUGH*

ARSE Command

*COUGH*

;)

[Chubby]

yet Leisure Suit Larry is M? The whole ratings thing is comical...

[oykib]

I'll use GTA as an example, but this really applies to games, movies, etc. in general. I've known about the content of the GTA games for quite a while now, mostly because of sites like this one & my general interest in niche games that ends up exposing me to info about games outside my own interests ... but how the heck is the average parent supposed to find this info outside of the ratings system on the box? I mean, I know they could theoretically do what I've done, but I think we fall into the trap of thinking "everybody uses the 'net" if we believe that's the solution.

So ... other than the ratings system, what can parents do prior to buying a game & then discovering that it isn't suitable for their kid/acceptable to them as parents? And I'm talking about realistic solutions for all parents, not just the most techno-savvy ones.


The game's name is Grand Theft Auto. That should put up red flags all by itself. And you know what else? Before plopping down $50, you might want to turn the box over-- just like you do when you pick up a DVD.

Any parent that's interested in knowing the content can find out easily. Some parents just can't be bothered.

[kurtism]

http://pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=20050728

I think that strip about sums it up for me, but funnier.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The game's name is Grand Theft Auto. That should put up red flags all by itself. And you know what else? Before plopping down $50, you might want to turn the box over-- just like you do when you pick up a DVD.

Any parent that's interested in knowing the content can find out easily. Some parents just can't be bothered.

Wow ... if you believe the content of games can be accurately judged consistently by the packaging, I'm just ... wow. But boy do I bet the game companies love you.

I won't argue the point about many parents not bothering, my question was more about those who do want to know, and they want to know more than the box generally reveals in order to make their decision.

[oykib]

Wow ... if you believe the content of games can be accurately judged consistently by the packaging, I'm just ... wow. But boy do I bet the game companies love you.

I won't argue the point about many parents not bothering, my question was more about those who do want to know, and they want to know more than the box generally reveals in order to make their decision.

Front cover

hxxp://www.gamesman.co.nz/images/product_boxshots/2829-front.jpg

Let's see... drive by shootings, hookers leaning over, guys in masks... Only a jackass would by this for their impressionable children.



Five years ago Carl Johnson escaped from the pressures of life in Los Santos, San Andreas...a city tearing itself apart with gang trouble, drugs and corruption. Where filmstars and millionaires do their best to avoid the dealers and gangbangers.

Now, it's the early 90s. Carl's got to go home. His mother has been murdered, his family has fallen apart and his childhood friends are all heading towards disaster.

On his return to the neighborhood, a couple of corrupt cops frame him for homicide. CJ is forced on a journey that takes him across the entire state of San Andreas, to save his family and to take control of the streets.



Discover an immersive storyline filled with twists and turns
Take part in fast-paced and lawless driving
Experience all-new action that continues the hit Grand Theft Auto series
Encounter new thrills and wicked speeds that are just up the road
Traverse the state of San Andreas and take down anyone that gets in your way

Sounds like a winner for my ten year old.

Many people disagree with you on this board. But, usually, you can be counted on to be reasonable and hold others up to reasonable levels of responsibility.

Your son takes you to the shop and you see this box. It's enough for you to spend five minutes on the internet or talking to the store clerk before buying it. At the very least you could watch your kid play it for ten minutes to see what it's really about and take it back to the store.

I have no sympathy for "parents" that can't be bothered. And if they can't be bothered for this, then their children are going to run into a hell of a lot worse than this for society to worry about.

[Raven]

For those that never actually saw the hidden scenes, here it is.

Warning, NOT SAFE FOR WORK

hxxp://gorillamask.net/gtasex.shtml

[JonInMiddleGA]

Your son takes you to the shop and you see this box. It's enough for you to spend five minutes on the internet or talking to the store clerk before buying it. At the very least you could watch your kid play it for ten minutes to see what it's really about and take it back to the store.


Hmm, maybe I see where the problem in communicating is coming from -- I said
I'll use GTA as an example, but this really applies to games, movies, etc. in general.

And as for the "take it back to the store" option, that's a non-starter with virtually every retail outlet I'm aware of. Once you open it, you own it, only return possible is for a copy of same game (which obviously solves nothing).

[ShaqFu]

the Republicans could run Ronald Reagan Jr and still win.

You mean Michael Reagan, right? Ron Reagan is a liberal Democrat.

[ShaqFu]

This is fun.
A 85-year old lady got the M-rated game for her 14-year old grandson but now sues Rockstar Games and Take Two Interactive for false, misleading and deceptive practices.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/27/game.lawsuit.ap/index.html

Hmmm, I don't think she'll win that one. Buying a game with an M-rating (17 and up) still isn't going to win you any fans on a jury.

[General Mike]

Wow ... if you believe the content of games can be accurately judged consistently by the packaging, I'm just ... wow. But boy do I bet the game companies love you.

I won't argue the point about many parents not bothering, my question was more about those who do want to know, and they want to know more than the box generally reveals in order to make their decision.

I know I'm a week late with this post, but all you have to do is flip the box over and look at the ESRB descriptors.

Here are the descriptors from 3 M rated games.

God of War

MATURE 17+
Blood and Gore
Intense Violence
Nudity
Strong Language
Sexual Themes

Def Jam Fight for NY

MATURE 17+
Blood
Sexual Themes
Strong Language
Violence

GTA: San Andreas

MATURE 17+
Blood and Gore
Intense Violence
Strong Language
Strong Sexual Content
Use of Drugs

The ESRB content descriptors for the majority of games tell you alot more about that game than anything the MPAA does. Maybe it's just me, but if I had kids, and the game he wanted, was listed as having Strong Sexual Content, I wouldn't buy it for him. The majority of the people who complain about the content, can't be bothered to take 2 seconds to flip the box over and read.

[TazFTW]

And Rockstar releases a patch.

http://nomorehotcoffee.com/

The patch supposedly blocks the hot coffee mod from being installed but if you installed the mod first, the patch will not affect it.

[Draft Dodger]

And Rockstar releases a patch.

http://nomorehotcoffee.com/

The patch supposedly blocks the hot coffee mod from being installed but if you installed the mod first, the patch will not affect it.

I wish they would show how many times that file gets downloaded :rolleyes: