Atlanta Hawks, Worst Pro Sports Franchise? [Archive]

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stevew

08-05-2005, 10:59 AM

Its bad enough that the Hawks only won 13 games last season. Now there is a huge mess with their planned Acquisition of Joe Johnson, because one of their partners won't sign off on the deal. Seriously, what the hell is going on.

ATLANTA -- As the Atlanta Thrashers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/clubhouse?team=atl) showed off their big NHL free-agent signee Thursday, the NBA Hawks (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/clubhouse?team=atl) and their would-be new star were still in trade limbo.
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=right border=0 hspace="5" vspace="5"><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width=8></TD><TD width=200 bgColor=#ecece4><TABLE cellSpacing=6 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD colSpan=2>Joe Johnson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3520)

Guard-Forward
Phoenix Suns
</TD><TD width=65 rowSpan=2>http://espn.go.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3520.jpg</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width=67>Profile (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3520)

</TD><TD width=68></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width=8></TD><TD width=200 bgColor=#ecece4><TABLE cellSpacing=4 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width=190 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top align=middle bgColor=#ae5a00><TD colSpan=6><CENTER>2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS</CENTER></TD></TR><TR align=right bgColor=#bcbcb4><TD width="17%">GM</TD><TD width="17%">PPG</TD><TD width="17%">RPG</TD><TD width="17%">APG</TD><TD width="17%">FG%</TD><TD width="17%">FT%</TD></TR><TR align=right bgColor=#bcbcb4><TD>82</TD><TD>17.1</TD><TD>5.1</TD><TD>3.5</TD><TD>.461</TD><TD>.750</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

On Tuesday, when the Thrashers first announced they had signed center Bobby Holik (http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/profile?statsId=267&out), the Hawks made first mention of a "procedural issue" that was holding up a sign-and-trade deal to send guard Joe Johnson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3520) from Phoenix to Atlanta.

Since both teams are owned by the same Atlanta Spirit LLC group, two owners -- Bruce Levenson and Michael Gearon Jr. -- and chief executive officer Bernie Mullin couldn't avoid questions about the Hawks at the Thrashers' news conference Thursday.

The Thrashers moved quickly to sign Holik while the Hawks are left in limbo in their pursuit of Johnson. The contrast of the two deals left the impression that Hawks general manager Billy Knight doesn't enjoy the same support from the ownership group as does Thrashers general manager Don Waddell.

Also, no one willing to speak about the Johnson deal would deny that one owner -- Steve Belkin -- is not on the same page with the rest of the group.

The rift has escalated to the point that Belkin has gotten a restraining order against his partners, who are looking to strip him of his role as the team's NBA governor, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported on its Web site on Thursday.

"We are aware of the lawsuit filed by Steve Belkin in Boston. We will not allow that to deter us from building a winning team in Atlanta," Gearon told the Journal-Constitution.

"This is real damaging. This can't work if everybody is pulling in different directions," former Hawks star and current team vice president Dominique Wilkins told the paper. 

Mullin acknowledged that having Knight appear to lack Belkin's support is not good for the Hawks' chances of dealing with other free agents.

"Obviously, it's a concern at this point in time," Mullin said. "It's not a concern in the long term."

Added Mullin: "Management is 100 percent behind Billy Knight as is clearly the overwhelming majority of the ownership group."

The "overwhelming majority" does not include Belkin, the NBA governor in the ownership group and the man who must sign off on all deals.

Belkin did not attend Thursday's news conference and did not return a phone message.

Hawks spokesman Arthur Triche said Knight had no comment on the trade Thursday.

Levenson conceded that the breakdown in the trade talks "is not the way I would script it."

"I would be happy today if Joe Johnson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3520) were an Atlanta Hawk today, but we are working as hard as we can to make that happen," Levenson said.

Belkin may be concerned the Hawks are giving up to much to obtain Johnson, who would sign a five-year, $69.6 million contract with Phoenix that would include a 2005-06 salary of about $20 million. The contract would be traded to the Hawks, who would give up two first-round picks, second-year guard Boris Diaw (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3724) and a $4.9 million trade exception.

Johnson, 24, would become the Hawks' highest-paid player.

Johnson averaged 17.1 points, 5.1 rebounds and 3.5 assists as a combo guard with the Suns last season. With Atlanta, he likely would be the starting point guard.

Levenson and Gearon said they expect the logjam will be settled soon and the trade will go through.

"Yes, I really think it's going to get done," Levenson said, adding "This is a bump in the road."

Said Gearon: "Am I confident? Yeah, I am confident. We'll see. I think we'll work through it."

Belkin, based in Boston, holds a 30 percent stake in the Atlanta Spirit LLC ownership group. The Washington-based owners, including Levenson and Ed Peskowitz, own 40 percent. The Atlanta-based owners, including Gearon and Rutherford Seydel, own 30 percent.

"We have a partnership agreement and we have an agreement with the NBA that governs how we operate," Levenson said. "Those agreements make sure that we do our business, and we're doing our business. It doesn't mean that every bit of business will be done as perfectly as we'd like to get done, but we'll get it done."

HomerJSimpson

08-05-2005, 11:06 AM

Breeze

08-05-2005, 11:20 AM

Yes, they simply are. What message is this now sending to any future FA? "You can't count on a contract agreement from Atlanta. There are too many cooks in the kitchen" This will also bleed over to the Thrashers (since this is the same owner group). Talk about shooting themselves in the foot. They might as well put the teams back up for sale.

Luckily so far this hasn't been an issue on the Hockey side, mostly because the acting Hockey "Governer" (whatever the hell that is), isn't Belkin. Apparently Belkin is the only one that wants to nix this deal (and I'm guessing he wants to nix it because of a power play more than anything else), but because he's the Basketball "Governer" (that stupid title again) he has the athority to do that. The league is probably going to have to step in again. I knew when 9 people from 3 different cities purchased the teams - there were going to be problems.

rkmsuf

08-05-2005, 11:22 AM

Belkin is the only smart one. Johnson isn't worth that money.

HomerJSimpson

08-05-2005, 11:22 AM

Luckily so far this hasn't been an issue on the Hockey side, mostly because the acting Hockey "Governer" (whatever the hell that is), isn't Belkin. Apparently Belkin is the only one that wants to nix this deal (and I'm guessing he wants to nix it because of a power play more than anything else), but because he's the Basketball "Governer" (that stupid title again) he has the athority to do that. The league is probably going to have to step in again. I knew when 9 people from 3 different cities purchased the teams - there were going to be problems.

They need to buy him out if they have any hope of salvaging this.

Breeze

08-05-2005, 11:24 AM

Belkin is the only smart one. Johnson isn't worth that money.

Not arguing that point. However, I would say he probably should have said something like "If you try to make this deal I'm going to veto it." so we wouldn't be in this position. (of course that assumes that he didnt' say that and the Washington and Atlanta groups are making a power play on Belkin).

I'm so confused...

rkmsuf

08-05-2005, 11:25 AM

Not arguing that point. However, I would say he probably should have said something like "If you try to make this deal I'm going to veto it." so we wouldn't be in this position. (of course that assumes that he didnt' say that and the Washington and Atlanta groups are making a power play on Belkin).

I'm so confused...

this probably should have come up at some point before. I would guess that it must have.

stevew

08-05-2005, 11:25 AM

One thing i didnt know is that the Hawks pick is only lottery protected for one season, meaning if the Hawks miss the playoffs next year(a virtual certainty), in 2007 they would only have top 3 protection on the pick, with none the following year.

I can see Belkins point of not wanting to pay a non all star the Maximum salary, including a baloon payment of 20 million this season. Plus giving up potentially a really good draft pick, plus giving up another midround draft pick, plus also giving up a decent young player(Diaw). Unless, of course, he is just using this as a power grab.

HomerJSimpson

08-05-2005, 11:27 AM

Not arguing that point. However, I would say he probably should have said something like "If you try to make this deal I'm going to veto it." so we wouldn't be in this position. (of course that assumes that he didnt' say that and the Washington and Atlanta groups are making a power play on Belkin).

I'm so confused...

From what I have heard, he initially agreed to the deal, and only balked when it came to actually signing the final paperwork. I would think (if true) that would be enough to give the team legal right to remove him from the NBA governor.

stevew

08-05-2005, 11:27 AM

this probably should have come up at some point before. I would guess that it must have.

Supposedly the rough parameters of the Sign and Trade were in place, but issues on the lottery protection of the picks were not. Belkin may feel torpedo'd by his GM.

JonInMiddleGA

08-05-2005, 11:36 AM

Belkin is right to block this idiotic deal ... 2 #1's plus cash in return for a pretty good SG that is somehow supposed to morph into a PG capable of molding a team of very young talent, all while making serious All-Star money. This plus the bizarre "let's have a roster of nothing but SG's & SF's" plan that Billy Knight appears to be working under, leaves me thinking that Belkin is the only one who has a clue what he's doing.

That said, I believe him being 100% right to do anything he can to torpedo this deal is nothing more than blind luck, he's doing it for the powerplay IMO, he's just right by happenstance.

bob

08-05-2005, 11:45 AM

RPI-Fan

08-05-2005, 05:08 PM

To answer once and for all how bad the Hawks are, and how little support they have in Atlanta, think about this. $199 for season tickets. Full season tickets. 40+ games. Granted, they aren't the best seats, but Philips Arena doesn't really have horrible seats.

Move this team somewhere that cares. The only people who will miss them are fans of other teams that won't see their team in town each year.

Damn, that is insane. I never realized Hawks games were that cheap. You're right about there being no bad seats in Phillips Arena -- for hockey, you can get $10 seats on the blue line right at the front of the 2nd level!!!

korme

08-05-2005, 05:10 PM

Johnson might not be worth that kind of money but it is important they sign a player of his caliber just to bring some fans back and compete for a better season than 13 wins.

JonInMiddleGA

08-05-2005, 05:27 PM

Johnson might not be worth that kind of money but it is important they sign a player of his caliber just to bring some fans back and compete for a better season than 13 wins.

Sorry, but signing a SG to play point alongside four SF's ain't gonna bring me back.

ice4277

08-05-2005, 05:37 PM

My only firsthand experience with the Hawks was when I was in town for a broadcasting conference about 3-4 years ago. Our first night there we decided to go see the Hawks/Knicks. Ugh. The funny part is, there was a Run DMC concert after the game (basically the reason we decided to go in the first place). At the beginning of the game it was about 25% of capacity. It slowly increased as the game went on until it reached about 80% just as the concert was starting. I've never seen anything like that.

TroyF

08-05-2005, 07:37 PM

Sorry, but signing a SG to play point alongside four SF's ain't gonna bring me back.

Normally I would agree Jon. JJ has his problems and maybe he isn't quite worth the money. That said. . .

1) The baloon payment up front will leave the Hawks with cap space in year 2 and 3. Considering they have the cap space now, it isn't a horrible thing to overpay for a solid player.

2) JJ is a terrific young player. When you compare him to Michael Redd, you see that JJ is on the same playing field with him and is a better shooter. JJ is a better passer, defender, rebounder. . . His contract is not a stretch.

3) This is most important. . . JJ WANTS TO PLAY FOR THE HAWKS. That's simply stunning. Why would you want to play there? If you're the Hawks, this is a dream come true. He wants to play point? Fine, let him play point for a year and move him to the 2 if it doesn't work out. Too many 2's and 3's? Fine, trade em. Most of them have some value. Marquee free agents aren't exactly banging down the Hawks door to take their money.

JJ is a young player with star potential who truly wants to be in Atlanta. IMO, that's worth taking a chance on, even if it means overpaying a little bit.

All of that said, this is some pretty amazing stuff. The conduct of all the owners (through lack of communication or otherwise) is going to destroy any chances of success the team has. Williams has to be looking at this and counting the days to his FA.

stevew

08-05-2005, 07:40 PM

1) The baloon payment up front will leave the Hawks with cap space in year 2 and 3. Considering they have the cap space now, it isn't a horrible thing to overpay for a solid player.

Actually the baloon payment wont affect his cap number. The upfront payment was merely a way to get him the most money, as quickly as possible, and also to hopefully make the Suns think hard about matching him, since they'd be paying so much cash up front. He'll make 20 million this year, his cap figure will be roughly 12.5 million.

TroyF

08-05-2005, 07:42 PM

[QUOTE=TroyF]

1) The baloon payment up front will leave the Hawks with cap space in year 2 and 3. Considering they have the cap space now, it isn't a horrible thing to overpay for a solid player.

[QUOTE]

Actually the baloon payment wont affect his cap number. The upfront payment was merely a way to get him the most money, as quickly as possible, and also to hopefully make the Suns think hard about matching him, since they'd be paying so much cash up front. He'll make 20 million this year, his cap figure will be roughly 12.5 million.

Interesting. When the Nuggets payed the up front money to Andre Miller to get him from the Clippers, his cap value was big the first year, went down the second year, and started rising in year 3.

Honolulu_Blue

08-05-2005, 07:43 PM

Uh.... Yay, Thrashers?

AlexB

08-05-2005, 07:50 PM

That said, I believe him being 100% right to do anything he can to torpedo this deal is nothing more than blind luck, he's doing it for the powerplay IMO, he's just right by happenstance.

I know nothing about basketball, and have nothing to add to the debate, but am glad I read this post just for this single word... To (mis?)quote Blackadder 'Make a note of that word: I like it & want to use it in future conversations)

Recoil

08-05-2005, 07:55 PM

Wow. I forgot we even had a basketball team. Go figure.

stevew

08-05-2005, 07:57 PM

Interesting. When the Nuggets payed the up front money to Andre Miller to get him from the Clippers, his cap value was big the first year, went down the second year, and started rising in year 3.
I believe thats cause Miller made less than the Maximum salary, so they could build the decrease into the contract, to make it less likely to be matched.

cougarfreak

08-05-2005, 08:15 PM

To answer once and for all how bad the Hawks are, and how little support they have in Atlanta, think about this. $199 for season tickets. Full season tickets. 40+ games. Granted, they aren't the best seats, but Philips Arena doesn't really have horrible seats.

Move this team somewhere that cares. The only people who will miss them are fans of other teams that won't see their team in town each year.

They want people to pay $199 for season tickets? What a fucking rip off.

TroyF

08-05-2005, 08:16 PM

I believe thats cause Miller made less than the Maximum salary, so they could build the decrease into the contract, to make it less likely to be matched.

Cool. Either way, I still think the JJ signing would be good for the Hawks. Now, why JJ actually wants to go to that clown outfit, I have no idea.

And what the hell do the Suns do if this thing falls through? They've lowballed him for a year. Now they'll be in a position to do so again. JJ could be a very unhappy camper.

If I were a team in need of a SG, I'd be on the phone to the Suns right now trying to work out an S&T if this thing falls through.

JonInMiddleGA

08-05-2005, 11:00 PM

3) This is most important. . . JJ WANTS TO PLAY FOR THE HAWKS. That's simply stunning. Why would you want to play there?

I can think of, oh, 70 million reasons. ;)

TroyF

08-05-2005, 11:35 PM

I can think of, oh, 70 million reasons. ;)

Yeah, but Jon, the Suns said they'd match it. The Suns almost certainly would have matched it had JJ not asked them to let him go and complained about the way they treated him.

That's what gets me. Even after the Suns said they'd match the money, JJ turned around and said "No, I'm not kidding, I WANT to go to Atlanta and play in front of 15 people"

It's stunning and it's one reason I think the Hawks need to find a way to get the deal done. I think one of the most underestimated things in sports is having guys who honestly want to play for your team. You have the guys taking a paycheck. You have all the disloyalty in sports. But when you have a guy that comes out and says that he wants to play for your team, I think that means something.

And lets face it, not a lot of people want to go play for the Hawks. You have to take what you can get. :)

ctmason

08-06-2005, 03:38 AM

I'd like to think that somewhere, Dominique Wilkins is laughing, but rarely do my fantasies come true. Just ask my girlfriend.

Living in Phoenix now, its very interesting to see the two sides of this. Many out here have blasted Robert Sarver for (in their eyes) giving up on JJ, when the Republic and other news outlets have said that JJ had to go, and the whole mess reveals some salary woes the Suns were sure to experience. One thing this town can seem to agree on is that the Hawks are a laughingstock.

Granted, I watched most of the Suns previous season and quite frankly never understood why JJ was worth that kind of money to any team (including the Suns). But hey, I was the one guy in Atlanta who thought the B.J. Surhoff deal was a good idea.

Shkspr

08-06-2005, 12:06 PM

I'd like to think that somewhere, Dominique Wilkins is laughing, but rarely do my fantasies come true. Just ask my girlfriend.

Actually, right now Dominique is thinking, "This is real damaging. This can't work if everybody is pulling in different directions." ;)

sterlingice

08-06-2005, 12:57 PM

Uh.... Yay, Thrashers?
Is this some sort of odd payback for those people who come and crap in the NHL threads with stuff like "I don't care about the NHL" ;)

SI