OT - The End of New Orleans

[NoMyths]

First: I'm not going to quote everything. (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050905/D8CDOMHG0.html) I'll quote this:

The strain was apparent in other ways. Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, dropped his head and cried on NBC's "Meet the Press."

"The guy who runs this building I'm in, emergency management, he's responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home, and every day she called him and said, 'Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?' And he said, 'And yeah, Momma, somebody's coming to get you. Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody's coming to get you Thursday. Somebody's coming to get you on Friday' - and she drowned Friday night. She drowned on Friday night," Broussard said.

"Nobody's coming to get her, nobody's coming to get her. The secretary's promise, everybody's promise. They've had press conferences - I'm sick of the press conferences. For God's sakes, shut up and send us somebody."

Second:

The End of New Orleans

[Poem removed by author]

[NoMyths]

Also: Watch this. (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Face-the-Nation-Sheiffer-blasts-Katrina-response.wmv) Watch it.

Bob Schieffer's Personal Thought on Katrina's Aftermath (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Face-the-Nation-Sheiffer-blasts-Katrina-response.wmv)

[rexallllsc]

Sick.

[Dutch]

That blog is worse than Reuters. Good Lord, people read that crap?

[flere-imsaho]

I'm going to go ahead and agree with Newt Gingrich:

"If we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" asked former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a Republican.

[rexallllsc]

I'm going to go ahead and agree with Newt Gingrich:

Yup. America has been exposed.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050830/capt.capm10208301856.bush__capm102.jpg?x=380&y=325&sig=xlaGyc1Muc3K7iAJg1KmkA--

Nero fiddled as Rome burned...

[MikeVic]

I was going to make a thread about a question I had, but I think this would be a good place to ask it...

I haven't been following the news very closely, just seeing that there's still an emergency, people are still stuck there, and there's still looting and crazy stuff going on. I've talked to many people here in my city, and everyone seems to have the same concerns that Newt Gingrich brought up.

How come it's taking so long to restore order to New Orleans and get everyone out? Are the troops or whoever scared of the loose gunmen? Is the war somehow stopping help from getting in? How are wars fought when it's taking so long to help those in New Orleans? I don't mean it to sound as bashing, it just doesn't make sense to at least the people I've talked to... can anyone explain it to me?

[Subby]

That's a beautiful poem, Bryan...

Thanks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I haven't been following the news very closely, just seeing that there's still an emergency, people are still stuck there, and there's still looting and crazy stuff going on. I've talked to many people here in my city, and everyone seems to have the same concerns that Newt Gingrich brought up.

Anybody who believed we're actually prepared to deal with a terrorist attack on the scale of Katrina was a damned fool. Being better prepared than we were 5 years ago is a lot different than actually being prepared.

How come it's taking so long to restore order to New Orleans and get everyone out?

I don't believe anyone (that's talking publically) actually knows the answer to that. But there's no shortage of people who have opinions or theories. Short of a major smoking gun in a very key position emerging from the rubble with documentation, I don't believe there's much that we'll know for quite a long time, whenever the various "special commissions/boards of inquiry/etc" get finished with their work.

Are the troops or whoever scared of the loose gunmen?

Now that's one worry I don't believe is remotely valid, at least not where the troops are concerned. To a man, they've struck me as landing in a very kick-ass-and-take-names-later state of mind.

I do think the routing of the 80+ police/N.Guard was a major blow to morale of the first contingent in the area & probably played a key role in getting them the sort of help (both manpower & leadership) that they badly needed.

[NoMyths]

That's a beautiful poem, Bryan...

Thanks.Glad you like it. Thanks for the kindness.

[rexallllsc]

For those wondering why things seem so jumbled. Well, part of the reason may be due to who GWB put in charge of FEMA, Michael Brown.

He spent the 1990s as judges and stewards commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association. His job was to ensure that horse-show judges followed the rules.

Brown’s ticket to FEMA was Joe Allbaugh, President Bush’s 2000 campaign manager and a longtime friend of Brown’s in Oklahoma.

Brown told several association officials that if Bush were elected, he would be in line for a good job. When Allbaugh, who managed Bush’s campaign, took over FEMA in 2001, he took Brown with him as general counsel.

[CraigSca]

Dang it - I knew this hurricane was Bush's fault!

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Dang it - I knew this hurricane was Bush's fault!
''Wouldn't have happened if Kerry was president.'' ;)

[Axxon]

Dang it - I knew this hurricane was Bush's fault!

Not commenting on the original post but it didn't say the hurricane was Bush's fault but that the poor handling of the aftermath was.

This is a difficult one because the accusation really isn't about political views here but about cronyism which is politically a universal belief.

So, it could be right that this is the reason and that would of course deserve criticism but making it a left versus a right thing would be stupid though probably inevitable in these contentious times.

Since Bush can't possibly run for president again and this issue has no other legs than personal ones the best thing to remember from this is that if it proves true don't ever elect Michael Brown or his friends to any important public offices.

:D

[Arles]

The problem comes back to the system. The bureaucracy, number of "heads" involved, tie-ins needed between the states and feds, and overall red tape needed to get this type of funding makes any kind of overnight or even 2-3 day large scale response not feasible.

The only way to improve this response is to put this type of disaster recovery under the military with one person having the ability to write almost blank checks and deploy state and federal national guard units. This way if you have some governer looking like a chicken with her head cut off and the head of FEMA counting Arabian horses, it really doesn't matter. Think of it like a special investigations unitl of the FBI compared to a local sheriff. These type of decisions are too important to leave for random governers, local officials and appointed stiffs.

So, even if Rudy Guliani and Bernie Kerik were in charge of New Orleans, things would have been difficult in that they still would have been reliant on approval from the governer (buffoon), FEMA (buffoon), the senate (makes a snail look like grease lightning) and about 10 other national agenices in order to get the support they needed.

You could have had the reincarnation of JFK's resiliancy, Clinton's compassion and Reagan's bravado as president and he would still be a slave to the governor, congress and FEMA. No thanks, setup a new post under the military, give him carte-blanch authority to handle these situations and maybe next time it will be different. Acting as if a different president, head of FEMA or governer would have made a big difference is a fool's errand. While it may make us feel better in the interim, replacing one of these individual people would have done very little to prevent this clusterf*ck. The entire recipe needs to change, no just one ingredient.

[MrBigglesworth]

Acting as if a different president, head of FEMA or governer would have made a big difference is a fool's errand. While it may make us feel better in the interim, replacing one of these individual people would have done very little to prevent this clusterf*ck. The entire recipe needs to change, no just one ingredient.
Why would anyone think things would have gone better if the head of the disaster management agency had some disaster management experience and wasn't just some schmuck who got fired from his horse show job? It's an almost ludicrous idea!

[Arles]

How would you suggest that head get funding and access to the state and federal national guard without all the red tape? After all, a great head would have been able to avoid that, right? He could have risen above the laws governing his actions and made things happen. :rolleyes:

Still, I will not dispute the fact that this guy was a baffoon. My point is simply that the bureaucracy and numbers of people involved prevents a quick response - regardless of the head of FEMA. Thinking that a new head would make everything better is the easy way out - not the right way.

[Chubby]

How would you suggest that head get funding and access to the state and federal national guard without all the red tape? After all, a great head would have been able to avoid that, right? He could have risen above the laws governing his actions and made things happen.

Still, I will not dispute the fact that this guy was a baffoon. My point is simply that the bureaucracy and numbers of people involved prevents a quick response - regardless of the head of FEMA.You're right Arles, we could have a chimp in that position and he'd do the same job since he's hamstring by all the red tape :rolleyes:

No, blaming everything on red tape is the easy way out.

[Arles]

You're right Arles, we could have a chimp in that position and he'd do the same job since he's hamstring by all the red tape :rolleyes:

No, blaming everything on red tape is the easy way out.
Do you honestly believe a different head of FEMA could have made a massive difference in the relief effort? Again, the governor and Bush were both slow to respond. The mayor did a piss poor job of city planning when he was notified as well. A different head of FEMA might have helped, but it's akin to putting a better steak sauce on a burnt steak. While it may help a little, it will still taste like crap.

This whole process of dealing with large-scale disasters needs to change for the results to improve.

[MrBigglesworth]

What red tape, Arles? The feds already have the authority to take over all operations at a moments notice in a disaster. There is no red tape.

[Chubby]

Do you honestly believe a different head of FEMA could have made a massive difference in the relief effort? Again, the governor and Bush were both slow to respond. The mayor did a piss poor job of city planning when he was notified as well. A different head of FEMA might have helped, but it's akin to putting a better steak sauce on a burnt steak. While it may help a little, it will still taste like crap.

This whole process of dealing with large-scale disasters needs to change for the results to improve.
A different head of FEMA would have made A difference. When you are talking about saving lives, any difference is a BIG difference. Maybe having someone with actual disaster management ability might have made a difference, but according to you Jesus, Buddah and Mohammad combined into a single entity would have had the same impact as the joker in there now...

You can try and lay all the blame on red tape if you want, I mean, that way noone is accoutable right?

[Dutch]

Maybe having someone with actual disaster management ability might have made a difference,

http://www.leadingbrand.org/images/kerrydean.jpg

[MrBigglesworth]

http://www.leadingbrand.org/images/kerrydean.jpg
You are correct, the odds are in favor of either one of those two appointing someone more qualified than who Bush did.

[Arles]

A different head of FEMA would have made A difference. When you are talking about saving lives, any difference is a BIG difference. Maybe having someone with actual disaster management ability might have made a difference, but according to you Jesus, Buddah and Mohammad combined into a single entity would have had the same impact as the joker in there now...
Read what I wrote above. What I am saying is that a different governor, FEMA or president may have made a slight difference - but the real reason for the struggles involves the system we have in place.

You can try and lay all the blame on red tape if you want, I mean, that way noone is accoutable right?
I guess I'd rather try and solve the problem instead of simply blame someone, pat myself on the back and call it day. Replacing the FEMA guy might have helped a bit, as would a different governor. In the end, though, the system is the problem and until that gets fixed we will run into the same problems.

[Chubby]

http://www.leadingbrand.org/images/kerrydean.jpg
no "well he didn't get blown in office" reply?

when all else fails, divert attention to the other side right?

[Dutch]

no "well he didn't get blown in office" reply?

when all else fails, divert attention to the other side right?

I figured I better post something before the standard "Mission Accomplished" banner was put up. :)

[Honolulu_Blue]

http://www.leadingbrand.org/images/kerrydean.jpg
Agreed. Despite their funny poses in your picture, they would have likely done a better job.

[Arles]

What red tape, Arles? The feds already have the authority to take over all operations at a moments notice in a disaster. There is no red tape.
What about funding? Any red tape for that? What about the state national guard - the feds can take that from the governor? I also suppose the FEMA head can also deploy the federal national guard on his own as well.

All this is true, right?

[Chubby]

What about funding? Any red tape for that? What about the state national guard - the feds can take that from the governor? I also suppose the FEMA head can also deploy the federal national guard on his own as well.

All this is true, right?
Bush appointed a complete moron to the head of FEMA because he was a buddy of a buddy, who had zero experience. Anybody with a remote fucking clue about a disaster would have done a better job.

All this is true, right?

[Axxon]

What about funding? Any red tape for that? What about the state national guard - the feds can take that from the governor? I also suppose the FEMA head can also deploy the federal national guard on his own as well.

All this is true, right?


Yes.

[Axxon]

Bush appointed a complete moron to the head of FEMA because he was a buddy of a buddy, who had zero experience. Anybody with a remote fucking clue about a disaster would have done a better job.

All this is true, right?

Yes.

I want to appear balanced so I'm supporting both sides. :D

[Chubby]

I figured I better post something before the standard "Mission Accomplished" banner was put up. :)
So would this be the right place for the...

"Good thing we spent all those billions on a manhunt that has turned up jack squat and a pointless war we're still stcuk in with no way out"

? :)

[Solecismic]

http://www.leadingbrand.org/images/kerrydean.jpg

"I'm sending aid to Louisiana, and I'm sending aid to Mississippi, and I'm sending aid to Florida, and to Alabama, and to West Virginia, Ohio, Wisconsin and I'm sending aid to Michigan. Yeeeeeeaaahhhhhh!!!!"

[Axxon]

So would this be the right place for the...

"Good thing we spent all those billions on a manhunt that has turned up jack squat and a pointless war we're still stcuk in with no way out"

? :)

Basically, just like Kevin Costner in the movie.

[Honolulu_Blue]

"I'm sending aid to Louisiana, and I'm sending aid to Mississippi, and I'm sending aid to Florida, and to Alabama, and to West Virginia, Ohio, Wisconsin and I'm sending aid to Michigan. Yeeeeeeaaahhhhhh!!!!"
Jim, do we really want to get into the "bad quote game"?

[Tekneek]

The bungling of this does more to inspire would-be terrorists than protesting the war does, IMO. Now they know, for sure, that our government will be chasing its tail for a week when faced with a major disaster. We can't handle the aftermath of a storm that we knew everything about before it made landfall.

[Chubby]

The bungling of this does more to inspire would-be terrorists than protesting the war does, IMO. Now they know, for sure, that our government will be chasing its tail for a week when faced with a major disaster. We can't handle the aftermath of a storm that we knew everything about before it made landfall.
So anyone bitching about the lack of response is helping the terrorists? :rolleyes: ;)

[MrBigglesworth]

What about funding? Any red tape for that? What about the state national guard - the feds can take that from the governor? I also suppose the FEMA head can also deploy the federal national guard on his own as well.

All this is true, right?
According to the National Response Plan (http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf):
In large scale or catastrophic events, the declaration process can be expedited...the Stafford Act allows the President to provide emergency assistance without a governor's request.
The President has the authority to take over disaster reflief operations. If the governor was doing as bad a job as the administration now says they were doing, why didn't the feds take it over? The governor, however, asked for help the Friday before the Hurricane (http://www.newschannel6.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=8601). NM offered NG units on Sunday, which were not approved by the feds until Thursday.

But let's just assume that your 'red tape' theory is correct. Either way it is a massive failure of the federal government, either by dragging their heals or having stupid procedures in place in a time of emergency. I can't see any reason why it should, in an emergency, take more than a few hours, a day at the most, to approve the National Guard being sent from NM to LA. Being that LA declared a state of emergency the Friday before the hurricane, and they spent all day Sunday on the news talking about the possibility of NOLA flooding, I don't see why emergency relief operations could not be put into place before the hurricane. Furthermore, the incompetance of Chertoff and Brown after the incident is just apalling. They learned a day after everyone else that people were at the convention center. Dropping supplies from the air never seemed to occur to them. With all this evidence, how can all the blame be placed on 'red tape'?

EDIT: From conservative blogger Andrew Sullivan:
The 2004 National Response Plan explicitly states that:

"at times of any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions,"

...the federal government pre-empts local and state government in its responsibility to act quickly. After 9/11, the administration wisely dispensed with the formalities of deferring to local authorities (which, of course, in this case had already issued a state of emergency as early as August 26). The attempt by the spinners to blame this on the obviously overwhelmed and incompetent local authorities, doesn't fit with the Bush administration's own rules.

[Dutch]

The bungling of this does more to inspire would-be terrorists than protesting the war does, IMO. Now they know, for sure, that our government will be chasing its tail for a week when faced with a major disaster. We can't handle the aftermath of a storm that we knew everything about before it made landfall.

Everything is relative. Any logical terrorist from the Middle East would have to be stunned that a country suffered a major natural disaster and said country provided it's own relief and aid and did so within the week.

Now, can a logical terrorist be spun to believe it's an advantage to their cause? Absolutely.

[MrBigglesworth]

NorthCom (commander of troops in the US) Lt. Commander Sean Kelly, according to the BBC:
"Northcom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready when it hit Florida, because, as you remember, it hit the bottom part of Florida, and then we were planning once it was pointed towards the Gulf Coast.

"So, what we did, we activated what we call 'defense coordinating officers' to work with the states to say, 'OK, what do you think you will need?' And we set up staging bases that could be started.

"We had the USS Bataan sailing almost behind the hurricane so once the hurricane made landfall, its search and rescue helicopters could be available almost immediately So, we had things ready.

"The only caveat is: we have to wait until the president authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can't just act in this fashion; we have to wait for the president to give us permission."
Just more red tape, I guess.

EDIT:
More red tape:
MR. RUSSERT: Hold on. Hold on, sir. Shouldn't the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of New Orleans bear some responsibility? Couldn't they have been much more forceful, much more effective and much more organized in evacuating the area?

MR. BROUSSARD: . . . Let me give you just three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines." Sheriff Harry Lee said that if America--American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis.

[SFL Cat]

Agreed. Despite their funny poses in your picture, they would have likely done a better job.

Thanks, that was the funniest response I've read in a while.

*wipes tears from eyes*

[Arles]

You're right, Mr. Biggs, if Kerry was there instead of Bush, New Orleans would currently be a thriving metropolis. Listen, Bush made mistakes, as did FEMA and the governer and the mayor and the other 10 government institutions initially counted on for help. My point is that we should have someone with absolute power in these situations who's sole focus is disaster recovery.

The president has to get briefed by no fewer than a dozen entities before he can make an informed decision - in addition to whatever else he is currently involved with. There should be someone that Bush can call and say "do what you have to to recover" and have it happen without 10 different entities being personally notified by the president.

And, until that happens, we will be no better off in recovering from these horrible trajedies.

[SFL Cat]

Seriously, the Bush-haters would find fault regardless of what the administration did. If Bush had taken control from day one, then the Bush-haters would now be bashing him for turning the tragedy into a political football or photo-op.

Seriously, I think there is plenty of blame to be spread around, from the mayor of New Orleans, the deer-in-the-headlights governor of the state, FEMA, and yes the administration.

[Chubby]

You're right, Mr. Biggs, if Kerry was there instead of Bush, New Orleans would currently be a thriving metropolis. Listen, Bush made mistakes, as did FEMA and the governer and the mayor and the other 10 government institutions initially counted on for help. My point is that we should have someone with absolute power in these situations who's sole focus is disaster recovery.

The president has to get briefed by no fewer than a dozen entities before he can make an informed decision - in addition to whatever else he is currently involved with. There should be someone that Bush can call and say "do what you have to to recover" and have it happen without 10 different entities being personally notified by the president.

And, until that happens, we will be no better off in recovering from these horrible trajedies.
No no no, we should just have 1 person with absolute power in all situations.

You're being a dope. He never said that NO would be a friggin "thriving metrololis", he said Kerry would have had a more competant person at the head of FEMA which is of course true and having ANYONE who was more competant at the head of FEMA would have done a better job in this clusterfuck.

[Chubby]

Seriously, the Bush-haters would find fault regardless of what the administration did. If Bush had taken control from day one, then the Bush-haters would now be bashing him for turning the tragedy into a political football or photo-op.

Seriously, I think there is plenty of blame to be spread around, from the govenor of New Orleans, the deer-in-the-headlights governor of the state, FEMA, and yes the administration.
and the Bush apologists will continue to blame everything on "red tape" or try to divert attention from the actual facts.

I don't think Bush was the sole cause of this mess (the lack of help) but he certainly made things worse by a) putting a boob at the head of FEMA and b) taking his sweetass time giving the ok for help

[Honolulu_Blue]

Thanks, that was the funniest response I've read in a while.

*wipes tears from eyes*
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

The point I was trying to make was that even these guys....

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/bobhope/images/vcvg20.jpg


would have likely done a better job.

Glad I could, uh, give you a chuckle, I guess.

[SFL Cat]

They definitely would have done better than the two guys in the other pic.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'll just leave ya'll to argue & spin the various bits of stuff in this.

Poll: Bush Not Taking Brunt of Katrina Criticism
http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1

[Dutch]

I'm sorry, what comes around goes around, but....
http://baldilocks.typepad.com/baldilocks/images/kerry_at_kennedy.jpg
"Did somebody say, "Expert in the field of disaster preparedness?"

:)

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'll just leave ya'll to argue & spin the various bits of stuff in this.

Poll: Bush Not Taking Brunt of Katrina Criticism
http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1
I agree with the majority in the poll. I don't think Bush is personally at fault. I stated this way back when in that locked thread. I think it's really hard to honestly say that the president himself could have/would have made a significant difference in the result of the relief efforts. That said, the response of and efforts of the administration, as a whole, has been poor. But it certainly goes beyond just the administration. This has been a series of failures upon failures at all levels, local, state, and federal.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'm sorry, what comes around goes around, but....
http://baldilocks.typepad.com/baldilocks/images/kerry_at_kennedy.jpg
"Did somebody say, "Expert in the field of disaster preparedness?"

:)
Wow. He really looks like an oompa-loompa in that picture. It's eerie.

[SFL Cat]

The Title:

Poll: Bush Not Taking Brunt of Katrina Criticism

What They Really Wanted To Write:

Poll: DAMN! Bush Not Taking Brunt of Katrina Criticism

[Ben E Lou]

But it certainly goes beyond just the administration. This has been a series of failures upon failures at all levels, local, state, and federal.Ding. Ding. Ding. WE HAVE A WINNAH!!!!

Local--They knew it would eventually come to this. There needed to be a better evacuation plan to get *everyone* out of the city.
State--So inept that I can't even begin to count the ways.
Federal--Should have had the balls to step in, take over, and unify the efforts much earlier.

[Arles]

I agree with Ben, but I think we need to have someone with the ability to make all these calls without getting 100 signatures.

[JW]

Local--They knew it would eventually come to this. There needed to be a better evacuation plan to get *everyone* out of the city.
State--So inept that I can't even begin to count the ways.
Federal--Should have had the balls to step in, take over, and unify the efforts much earlier.

Agreed.

[Axxon]

They definitely would have done better than the two guys in the other pic.

Maybe you're right. I know nothing about these guys ability with disaster planning but the guy who was in charge fucked up; that's for sure.

Since the only guy who matters in the situation is the guy in charge so far we've got the following job handling ranking potential.

Famous Stooges A
Guys in Picture < A and > Current Stooge in office
Current Stooge in office < all mentioned candidates.

Hmm, how does this help your position again? I'm missing it.

[Arles]

Gotta love the NY Times. They post this editorial a few days back:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/opinion/01thu1.html?incamp=article_popular

While our attention must now be on the Gulf Coast's most immediate needs, the nation will soon ask why New Orleans's levees remained so inadequate. Publications from the local newspaper to National Geographic have fulminated about the bad state of flood protection in this beloved city, which is below sea level. Why were developers permitted to destroy wetlands and barrier islands that could have held back the hurricane's surge? Why was Congress, before it wandered off to vacation, engaged in slashing the budget for correcting some of the gaping holes in the area's flood protection?

Yet, just a few months back (April, 2005), they wrote this on that exact legislation:

http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/09/msm-in-their-own-words-continuing.html

Anyone who cares about responsible budgeting and the health of America's rivers and wetlands should pay attention to a bill now before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. The bill would shovel $17 billion at the Army Corps of Engineers for flood control and other water-related projects — this at a time when President Bush is asking for major cuts in Medicaid and other important domestic programs. Among these projects is a $2.7 billion boondoggle on the Mississippi River that has twice flunked inspection by the National Academy of Sciences... [snip]

This is a bad piece of legislation.
Ah, to be a newspaper that spouts off venom with no accountability...

[Axxon]

The Title:

Poll: Bush Not Taking Brunt of Katrina Criticism

What They Really Wanted To Write:

Poll: DAMN! Bush Not Taking Brunt of Katrina Criticism

Yes, because everyone in the world has a tight narrow agenda and they must...simply must blindly and obediently serve this agenda no matter what.

If they don't, they grow prehensile fins and are banned from all happy hours for eternity.

I don't think I'd like fins and I like happy hours so my opinions are set concretely in stone. :)

You???

[Jesse_Ewiak]

Actually, in comparison to other diasters, that poll is horrible for Bush. Back in '92 after Andrew, at a time when Bush I's approval rating were hovering around the same numbers his son is, he got a 67% approval handling of dealing with the hurricane. Clinton probably got around the same numbers for OK City, and we all know the poll numbers from 9/11. Forty five percent is basically Bush's core plus five to ten percent who haven't jumped ship yet.

[Axxon]

Gotta love the NY Times. They post this editorial a few days back:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/opinion/01thu1.html?incamp=article_popular



Yet, just a few months back (April, 2005), they wrote this on that exact legislation:

http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/09/msm-in-their-own-words-continuing.html


Ah, to be a newspaper that spouts off venom with no accountability...

Whew, thanks. For a minute there I thought we might have screwed up and picked the wrong guy for the head of FEMA but nope, the post article clearly is much more of an important factor in the hurricane efforts. Man, I almost was on topic but you have clearly made me see the errors of my ways.

Thanks man.

[Axxon]

Oh, and Dutch,

Please, please post another clever photo.

This thread needs more clever photos.

[Arles]

Whew, thanks. For a minute there I thought we might have screwed up and picked the wrong guy for the head of FEMA but nope, the post article clearly is much more of an important factor in the hurricane efforts. Man, I almost was on topic but you have clearly made me see the errors of my ways.

Thanks man.
You bet ;)

BTW, I've already stated numerous times I think the FEMA guy is a baffoon. But, i guess any post that doesn't rip Bush or FEMA is off topic, right?

[Axxon]

You bet ;)

BTW, I've already stated numerous times I think the FEMA guy is a baffoon. But, i guess any post that doesn't rip Bush or FEMA is off topic, right?

Nope, actually, my first post defended Bush as much as any human needs defending in this situation.

But, since you wanted to post a rather erm novel defense of your own, then I felt it deserved response.

[Arles]

Actually, in comparison to other diasters, that poll is horrible for Bush. Back in '92 after Andrew, at a time when Bush I's approval rating were hovering around the same numbers his son is, he got a 67% approval handling of dealing with the hurricane. Clinton probably got around the same numbers for OK City, and we all know the poll numbers from 9/11. Forty five percent is basically Bush's core plus five to ten percent who haven't jumped ship yet.
What's interesting is that 67% fault the federal government, but only 44% blame Bush. Perhaps they feel the problem is with the process for dealing with these disasters and not the president. Nah, what am I thinking, that's just us crazies on the right.

[Arles]

Nope, actually, my first post defended Bush as much as any human needs defending in this situation.

But, since you wanted to post a rather erm novel defense of your own, then I felt it deserved response.
No defense at all. The article was just to point out blatent hypocrisy by the Times with a little humor for good measure.

[Axxon]

What's interesting is that 67% fault the federal government, but only 44% blame Bush. Perhaps they feel the problem is with the process for dealing with these disasters and not the president. Nah, what am I thinking, that's just us crazies on the right.

Well, the system lets Bozo's pick their Bozo buddies and that's horrible.

In this case, the particular Bozo picks a horrible Bozo buddy and that's pretty bad too.

So, the specific case is bad but the system is far worse.

So, I'm with the poll on this one.

[Axxon]

No defense at all. The article was just to point out blatent hypocrisy by the Times with a little humor for good measure.

I just don't see why that thought shouldn't be in a separate thread unless it's offered as a defense.

And I do appreciate the humor part and am offering my responses in good mood and good humor as well.

:)

[MrBigglesworth]

I agree with Ben, but I think we need to have someone with the ability to make all these calls without getting 100 signatures.
Yes, they should implement that. They can call it, 'the head of FEMA'.

[MrBigglesworth]

Gotta love the NY Times. They post this editorial a few days back:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/opinion/01thu1.html?incamp=article_popular



Yet, just a few months back (April, 2005), they wrote this on that exact legislation:

http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/09/msm-in-their-own-words-continuing.html


Ah, to be a newspaper that spouts off venom with no accountability...
The paper offers opinions on two completely different issues? My God, what will the MSM think of next??

The NYT actually has editorialists from different viewpoints, which means that on any given day they may have two different viewpoints for the same topic. I guess they feel that that gives them balance, but little do they know that it makes them evil.

[Axxon]

Yes, they should implement that. They can call it, 'the head of FEMA'.

Maybe in the job qualifications part they can put in something about not being a friend or a friend of a friend of the appointing politician?

It should weed out some dubious appointees as we've had in the last few years. ;)

[Chubby]

You bet ;)

BTW, I've already stated numerous times I think the FEMA guy is a baffoon. But, i guess any post that doesn't rip Bush or FEMA is off topic, right?
You've stated numerous times that it's all the "red tape's" fault.

[Dutch]

Oh, and Dutch,

Please, please post another clever photo.

This thread needs more clever photos.

You bet.

In happier times...

http://www.code7r.org/Bintoons/images/bush_car08.jpg

[Arles]

You've stated numerous times that it's all the "red tape's" fault.
Sure, the red tape makes relief and troops much more difficult to get through AND the FEMA head is a baffoon. Both can be true, and were, in this case.

[Chubby]

Sure, the red tape makes relief and troops much more difficult to get through AND the FEMA head is a baffoon. Both can be true, and were, in this case.
Yet you imply that the red tape is the only problem. You still havent tried to explain away the quotes earlier in this thread detailing instances where aid was available and refused by FEMA.

[rexallllsc]

BTW, I've already stated numerous times I think the FEMA guy is a baffoon. But, i guess any post that doesn't rip Bush or FEMA is off topic, right?

The FEMA appointment is quite an indictment on the competency (or lack thereof) of GWB.

[Axxon]

You bet.

In happier times...

http://www.code7r.org/Bintoons/images/bush_car08.jpg


Heh, thanks. That's gotta be photoshopped, right?

Right?

:D

[Axxon]

The FEMA appointment is quite an indictment on the competency (or lack thereof) of GWB.

I dont' see it.

It was a bad decision but it was the kind of decision that gets made on a daily basis everywhere, always.

From another front page thread here...

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=42365


Other than that, focus on getting along with the interviewers. People hire people they like. Smile a lot, answer questions in detail, not as a politician would answer them. If a question touches an area where it's possible, tailor your answer in a way that it compliments the company.


"People hire people they like."

It's not always the wisest decision but it's the bottom line and until everyone stops doing that, it's a bit dishonest when someone tries to use this in an argument about someone's competence for a job.

Come on, it's not like it's really needed in this case anyway. ;)

[Arles]

Yet you imply that the red tape is the only problem. You still havent tried to explain away the quotes earlier in this thread detailing instances where aid was available and refused by FEMA.
That's because I think the head of FEMA is a baffoon. Are you following yet? ;)

Of course, there were many other instances in the relief effort (troops, other sources of funding and overall logistics) where I think a better system would have setup everyone involved for a position to have more success.

But, that certainly doesn't excuse the FEMA guy for making some bad calls, Bush for being a little slow on the response and the state of Louisiana for getting caught with their pants down. I just choose to put my constructive efforts into focusing on what changes in the system could help improve disaster relief in the future. One or two individuals are not the reason New Orleans had such a hard time getting quick aid. And people that think that are setting themselves up to repeat this situation should it ever occur again.

[Axxon]

That's because I think the head of FEMA is a baffoon. Are you following yet? ;)

Of course, there were many other instances in the relief effort (troops, other sources of funding and overall logistics) where I think a better system would have setup everyone involved for a position to have more success.

But, that certainly doesn't excuse the FEMA guy for making some bad calls, Bush for being a little slow on the response and the state of Louisiana for getting caught with their pants down. I just choose to put my constructive efforts into focusing on what changes in the system could help improve disaster relief in the future. One or two individuals are not the reason New Orleans had such a hard time getting quick aid. And people that think that are setting themselves up to repeat this situation should it ever occur again.


Now this seems a bit idealistic but poorly thought it in regards to solutions.

It'd be infinitely easier to replace the baffoon, maybe even with a buffoon, than to overhaul a system which basically not only leaves you with an untested buffoon with sole power in an emergency.

Yikes, better really pick that guy good.

No, hiring a facilitator and a COORDINATOR would be far simpler and step on less toes.

I may be wrong here but a lot of the problems have been a lack of coordination and a clear identification as to who would be in charge of what, when, where and why and THAT job responsibility goes to the higher man on the totem pole which is the FEMA guy.

[RendeR]

They shoulda called RUDI.

[Arles]

No, hiring a facilitator and a COORDINATOR would be far simpler and step on less toes.

I may be wrong here but a lot of the problems have been a lack of coordination and a clear identification as to who would be in charge of what, when, where and why and THAT job responsibility goes to the higher man on the totem pole which is the FEMA guy.
That's certainly a reasonable way to go. The point here is to have some "point man" that can organize the relief effort without needing approval from numerous other representatives and be trained in dealing with these type of situations. He should run simulations, staged scenerios (on a lower scale) and practice our response so that when it does happen, we don't have a collection of 3-4 people fairly clueless on what to do first.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Yet, just a few months back (April, 2005), they wrote this on that exact legislation:

http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/09/msm-in-their-own-words-continuing.html


Ah, to be a newspaper that spouts off venom with no accountability...


Yes, because if we had only had more locks on the Mississippi (which is the project that the second clip refers to (look it up!)) all of this could have been avoided.

Wait, no, actually that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Your keen insight astounds once again.

[rexallllsc]

I dont' see it.

It was a bad decision but it was the kind of decision that gets made on a daily basis everywhere, always.

You act like this guy is running the local 7-11!


"People hire people they like."

It's not always the wisest decision but it's the bottom line and until everyone stops doing that, it's a bit dishonest when someone tries to use this in an argument about someone's competence for a job.

Come on, it's not like it's really needed in this case anyway. ;)

So what would speak to his competence, if not the people who he surrounds him with? The head of FEMA? The people who told him that "No one ever would've through the levees would break"!

[Axxon]

That's certainly a reasonable way to go. The point here is to have some "point man" that can organize the relief effort without needing approval from numerous other representatives and be trained in dealing with these type of situations. He should run simulations, staged scenerios (on a lower scale) and practice our response so that when it does happen, we don't have a collection of 3-4 people fairly clueless on what to do first.


Well, it sounds just a tad sticky with the language, specifically "without needing approval from numerous other representatives" but generally I agree.

It's just that the "approval" has to be there, it just has to be there from the beginning and all parties have to feel comfortable going into a situation with their roles in the situation and their leadership as well.

Just forcing it on elected officials in the time of crisis won't work and will still be a mess, no matter what the law because in situations like this, personality means far more than legality.

It's got to be an organizer and a people person and someone who can think well and persuade others in a crisis situation.

If he's given ultimate authority simply because he's the fed it's just as flawed as the current scenario, assuming the problems of finding the right guy in the first place.

Remember, this bozo could have had the authority you wish to give him. How would that have helped in this scenario?

Bah, it's always about people, not rules, especially in a crisis. Rudi, as much as I disagree with his views, was someone who could walk the walk when he had to. This guy can't.

[Axxon]

You act like this guy is running the local 7-11!

Sadly rexallllsc. the same basic rules apply to both situations though the ramifications are higher in the former.

Read the Peter Principle literature to understand a bit more about people rising to their level of incompetence and tell me where on a widespread basis this is regularly avoided.

It isn't. It's human nature and to rail against it is like spitting into the wind; it feels good but in the end you are still all wet.


So what would speak to his competence, if not the people who he surrounds him with? The head of FEMA? The people who told him that "No one ever would've through the levees would break"!

His competence at what? Picking FEMA guys? Ok, he sucks there.

In everything else? Well, I think he sucks there a lot too but I'm unwilling to use this example as proof of that. :)

[sterlingice]

"I'm sending aid to Louisiana, and I'm sending aid to Mississippi, and I'm sending aid to Florida, and to Alabama, and to West Virginia, Ohio, Wisconsin and I'm sending aid to Michigan. Yeeeeeeaaahhhhhh!!!!"
Sure, H_B didn't like it, but I thought it was well played :)

SI

[Arles]

Yes, because if we had only had more locks on the Mississippi (which is the project that the second clip refers to (look it up!)) all of this could have been avoided.

Wait, no, actually that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Your keen insight astounds once again.
Let's try this again, you have completely missed the point. The NY times writes this a few days ago:
Why was Congress, before it wandered off to vacation, engaged in slashing the budget for correcting some of the gaping holes in the area's flood protection?

The main budgetary item mentioned here refers to a bill that funded the Army Corps of Engineers for flood control. This same bill was insulted by the Times back in April here:
The bill would shovel $17 billion at the Army Corps of Engineers for flood control and other water-related projects — this at a time when President Bush is asking for major cuts in Medicaid and other important domestic programs. Among these projects is a $2.7 billion boondoggle on the Mississippi River that has twice flunked inspection by the National Academy of Sciences.

Now, I agree that this bill would not have helped the current situation. But, that didn't stop the NY Times from ripping Bush/congress for not passing it - months after they ripped him for supporting it. :rolleyes:

[bob]

Quick question (sorry if it has been answered elsewhere):

Where are they pumping this "toxic stew" of water in NO into? I assume they aren't just going to pump it into the ocean or lake, since it is a complete chemical hazard, but I have yet to hear what they are doing.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Sure, H_B didn't like it, but I thought it was well played :)

SI
Didn't say I didn't like it. Just said that the "nad quote game" can be a dangerous one. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

I remember when I first saw that clip of the Dean meltdown. It was just... wow, the end.

[HomerJSimpson]

I agree with the majority in the poll. I don't think Bush is personally at fault. I stated this way back when in that locked thread. I think it's really hard to honestly say that the president himself could have/would have made a significant difference in the result of the relief efforts. That said, the response of and efforts of the administration, as a whole, has been poor. But it certainly goes beyond just the administration. This has been a series of failures upon failures at all levels, local, state, and federal.


I agree with the caveat that the blame does more heavily lay on FEMA. FEMA was not ready, yet that is their primary function (state and local governments have limited time/resources to prepare for these situations. That is all FEMA does). Their slow response, their lack of cordination, and seemingly in many cases their getting in the way of the local efforts so they could be the "supreme power" has to be greatest in the scale of screw-ups.

The bigger question is why did FEMA fail? Could FEMA had done a better job with a true leader? Yes. A leader knows how to cut red-tape to get the job done. A political hack knows how to use red-tape so he doesn't get blamed. You can't completely blame FEMA leadership, but you certainly can say they are idiots.

[flere-imsaho]

The president has to get briefed by no fewer than a dozen entities before he can make an informed decision - in addition to whatever else he is currently involved with. There should be someone that Bush can call and say "do what you have to to recover" and have it happen without 10 different entities being personally notified by the president.

What, like Michael Chertoff?

[flere-imsaho]

I agree with Ben, but I think we need to have someone with the ability to make all these calls without getting 100 signatures.

Explain to me how this person is not either:

1. Secretary of Homeland Security - Michael Chertoff

or

2. President of the United States

[sachmo71]

Quick question (sorry if it has been answered elsewhere):

Where are they pumping this "toxic stew" of water in NO into? I assume they aren't just going to pump it into the ocean or lake, since it is a complete chemical hazard, but I have yet to hear what they are doing.


The lake.

[Arles]

Explain to me how this person is not either:

1. Secretary of Homeland Security - Michael Chertoff

or

2. President of the United States
Again, the problem I see with either of these people taking over early on is two-fold.

First, the governor and mayor would not hand over control of the evacuation to the Feds the Friday before as Bush asked. They were scared of having martial law instituted and this prevented Bush or Homeland Security from being able to organize federal troops and resources to help get people out of Louisiana before the trajedy hit - which would have been the best way to save lives. Instead, the governor and mayor felt they could handle the evacuation and failed miserably as numerous unused buses ended up being flooded when thousands of New Orleans residents were stuck in the city.

Second, the system in place prevented a quick response because of items we have detailed above. Initially, FEMA was contacted right after the levy broke and, while Bush was certainly slow in responding and FEMA not run all that well, expecting FEMA, Bush, Homeland security and our federal government in general to turn on a dime and deal with this in its current state is setting yourself up for trouble. The only chance for the feds to properly deal with this is if they were brought in proactively. When you look at the contacts needed for funding, bringing in equipment, federal and state national guard and logistics needed to evacuate remaining people and hunt for survivors, there is some coordination needed that will take time regardless of who's in power. Heck, the governor still hasn't handed over control of the state national guard to the feds almost a week later.

Given all this, I see three ways for this to improve in the future:

1. The state and local government to realize they are in over their heads when most major weather services are predicting disaster the friday before and hand the evacuation and planning to the feds then (as they asked). This would give the feds time to get the ducks in a row, evacuate with the national guard and get as many people out of the city as possible.

2. Make the changes discussed above (and probably best by Axxon) in regards to setting up a facilitator and coordinator with pre-approval to take measures no current official can.

3. Have the state and local government take a much more serious and proactive role in evacuating the state days before. This would have involved using their resources better to get people (esp those without cars) out of the city better. They should have deployed the state national guard the Friday before (as many had recommended) and helped assure the evacuation.

What did happen was the governor and mayor declining any help from Bush the weekend prior and days leading up, then screaming at the feds the day after when FEMA and Bush didn't respond on a dime. Now, I will certainly agree FEMA could have handled this better (and Brown should be fired) and that Bush made a couple strategic blunders that hurt as well, but the best bang for the buck would have been federal involvement during the evacuation days before - not once the barn door was open and the horses ran out.

[Glengoyne]

I heard our former mayor speaking on this topic this weekend. He said he was trained by FEMA in emergency management, and the following rule was plainly stated, and essentially rule number 1. If you have a emergency, and call upon FEMA and the Federal Government to assist you, call before you NEED the help, it will take them seventy two hours to properly respond. Now I don't know when the call was made, but it certainly wasn't done Friday or Saturday, when it would have done the most good.

There was certainly enough screwing up to go around. I think it will be a while before we really know why it took so long to get help to people.

[Antmeister]

I heard our former mayor speaking on this topic this weekend. He said he was trained by FEMA in emergency management, and the following rule was plainly stated, and essentially rule number 1. If you have a emergency, and call upon FEMA and the Federal Government to assist you, call before you NEED the help, it will take them seventy two hours to properly respond. Now I don't know when the call was made, but it certainly wasn't done Friday or Saturday, when it would have done the most good.

There was certainly enough screwing up to go around. I think it will be a while before we really know why it took so long to get help to people.

This doesn't make any sense to me. How can you call ahead for a tornado or earthquake? Plus days before the storm hit land, it was thought that it was going to hit Florida, not New Orleans, so why would someone call when the weather people are saying it was going to hit Florida?

[JonInMiddleGA]

This doesn't make any sense to me. How can you call ahead for a tornado or earthquake?

Ant, I think the point might be that (although you can't always call ahead) things take how long they take, wishing they didn't won't change that. Or at least that's what I take away from that bit of advice.

[Arles]

This doesn't make any sense to me. How can you call ahead for a tornado or earthquake? Plus days before the storm hit land, it was thought that it was going to hit Florida, not New Orleans, so why would someone call when the weather people are saying it was going to hit Florida?
Well, for one, the president declared an emergency days before:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.
Seems like an odd thing to do if the storm wasn't expected to hit then. And, until the governor agreed to hand over control to the feds, that was about the extend of what Bush and company could do. Instead, the governor waited until Sunday to order an manual evacuation (at Bush's insistence):

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:RGrwXIfpv8UJ:www.cnn.com/rssclick/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/%3Fsection%3Dcnn_topstories
Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said that President Bush had called and urged the state to order the evacuation.

Waiting that long to respond severly hurt the ability to evacuate all those without vehicles. So, instead of busing out the poor over the weekend, we were left with thousands of New Orleans residents who lacked cars being stuck in the city during the storm with the following buses unused:
http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix2/pic17908.jpg

That's a great use of resources :rolleyes:

[flere-imsaho]

Arles - Nice response. I appreciate the post & your thoughts.

[Arles]

Flere - there is plenty of blame to go along. The easiest answer to all this would be for local and state officials to know when they are over their heads and ask for help when it is clear a disaster of some sort is pending. This gives everyone the best chance of getting all the people out of the city. And, honestly, the best chance at saving lives is not finding the best way to dig through water for survivors, but instead to get these people out before the disaster occurs.

[Axxon]

I heard our former mayor speaking on this topic this weekend. He said he was trained by FEMA in emergency management, and the following rule was plainly stated, and essentially rule number 1. If you have a emergency, and call upon FEMA and the Federal Government to assist you, call before you NEED the help, it will take them seventy two hours to properly respond. Now I don't know when the call was made, but it certainly wasn't done Friday or Saturday, when it would have done the most good.

There was certainly enough screwing up to go around. I think it will be a while before we really know why it took so long to get help to people.

Maybe it's because the FEMA trainer realized that their leader was a complete incompetent who got his job by cronyism? ;)


Ant, I think the point might be that (although you can't always call ahead) things take how long they take, wishing they didn't won't change that. Or at least that's what I take away from that bit of advice.

Right, but if what I teased about is more or less true ( that the guys inability to lead added to the response time not that they factored it in to the training officially or otherwise ) then your statement is 100% true but irrelevant to the criticism we're talking about.

[Axxon]

Flere - there is plenty of blame to go along. The easiest answer to all this would be for local and state officials to know when they are over their heads and ask for help when it is clear a disaster of some sort is pending. This gives everyone the best chance of getting all the people out of the city. And, honestly, the best chance at saving lives is not finding the best way to dig through water for survivors, but instead to get these people out before the disaster occurs.

I don't think it's even possible to have a complete evacuation and it's certainly not possible to completely evacuate an area that large in that small a time frame.

Add to the fact that you're evacuating an unwilling polulation against a threat that had never happened before and with something as volatile as wind. A lot of people didn't want to go, period. How much manpower would it take to cover the entire city and force these evacuations? I don't see how that is a solution.

It would be better of course but trying to shift blame that way is dodgy. Lets look at what happened after the disaster, realize that FEMA has quite a bit of experience dealing with unexpected disasters ( and it's kinda the point with terrorist planning isn't it? ) and realize they screwed the pooch on this one. This has to be fixed not finger pointed away simply because of political beliefs.

That's seems like the more honest approach and quite a bit more productive for the entire country.

[flere-imsaho]

Flere - there is plenty of blame to go along. The easiest answer to all this would be for local and state officials to know when they are over their heads and ask for help when it is clear a disaster of some sort is pending. This gives everyone the best chance of getting all the people out of the city. And, honestly, the best chance at saving lives is not finding the best way to dig through water for survivors, but instead to get these people out before the disaster occurs.

That's fair enough, but if the result of the "easiest answer" is that a federal agency comes in that doesn't know what it's doing, you're arguably no further along to a solution.

What everyone's hitting on in this thread is a lack of central coordination and a lack of unified leadership. When I asked you why Bush or Chertoff didn't just step in and start running things, I did so because it seems obvious to me that either of those two (Chertoff arguably, Bush certainly) would have the authority to immediately assume command and provide that central coordination & unified leadership. If the President of the United States can't assume a leadership role in a disaster, then we've got a bigger problem on our hands.

That aside....

I believe in the concept of FEMA. When I lived in England, my wife worked for Oxfam, which is one of the largest charitible relief organizations in the world. At that time, the major NGOs in the UK were discussing how to better coordinate their efforts in disaster situations. Again, the concepts they came back to time and again were central coordination and unified leadership.

It was my understanding that FEMA was created to provide such a role, and as such I think it can still have an important role to play. I'm not convinced by the arguments here that it should merely be thrown away.

[Arles]

I don't think it's even possible to have a complete evacuation and it's certainly not possible to completely evacuate an area that large in that small a time frame.
Why not? They had hundreds of buses and the poor certainly saw all the wealthy people leaving dodge. Why not atleast give them the option? While certainly not everyone would take advantage of it, I bet 4,000 to 5,000 of the people stranded would have taken the city up and they could have been bused to specific areas with space setup beforehand. Then, instead of having an uncontrolled mass exodus, you atleast are dropping people off in areas ready for them.

This could have been setup Friday night (when everyone with a pulse knew the storm was going to hit bad) and start the busing at intervals on Saturday and Sunday. Like I said, even if only a few thousand took advantage of it, you are talking about numerous lives saved.

And busing out a couple thousand people over three days is not a momentous task if properly planned.

Add to the fact that you're evacuating an unwilling polulation against a threat that had never happened before and with something as volatile as wind.
So, you think all those low income families seeing rich people head out of town would have all rejected an opportunity (funded by the state) to leave as well?

A lot of people didn't want to go, period.
The those people could have stayed. But atleast give them the option.

How much manpower would it take to cover the entire city and force these evacuations? I don't see how that is a solution.
The governor had the state national guard and could have given Bush the OK to bring in the Feds by Sunday. It was atleast worth a shot.

[Axxon]

Why not? They had hundreds of buses and the poor certainly saw all the wealthy people leaving dodge. Why not atleast give them the option? While certainly not everyone would take advantage of it, I bet 4,000 to 5,000 of the people stranded would have taken the city up and they could have been bused to specific areas with space setup beforehand. Then, instead of having an uncontrolled mass exodus, you atleast are dropping people off in areas ready for them.

This could have been setup Friday night (when everyone with a pulse knew the storm was going to hit bad) and start the busing at intervals on Saturday and Sunday. Like I said, even if only a few thousand took advantage of it, you are talking about numerous lives saved.

And busing out a couple thousand people over three days is not a momentous task if properly planned.


So, you think all those low income families seeing rich people head out of town would have all rejected an opportunity (funded by the state) to leave as well?


The those people could have stayed. But atleast give them the option.


The governor had the state national guard and could have given Bush the OK to bring in the Feds by Sunday. It was atleast worth a shot.


My point is that getting an extra 4-5k people out still wouldn't change the current situation. The death toll is expected to be at 10k and there were a lot of trapped folks that lived and needed to be rescued. There would still need to be a coordinated effort to deal with these people no matter what. That was not forthcoming and earlier action by the locals wouldn't have changed that fact now would it?

[capsicum]

This was sent to me from my MIL who had several people that work with her travel down and join some people from Texas to volunteer aid. This read is very blunt. I would like to preface it with an explanation that I DO NOT agreee with all of the persons personal sentiments. It does show an amazingly different story, tho then the one fed to us by the popular media about conditions in the shelters ect., and for that reason only am I sharing it. I believe an enourmous amount of aid is still needed, It is not my opinion in anyway to suggest that the people of New Orleans are not deserving of the countries help.








This is from a guy here in Houston that went to volunteer his time to help the hurricane victims. It is pretty sad and disappointing to think people could be so ungrateful.

SO I VOLUNTEERED..........

I thought I might inform the few friends I have on my recent traumatic experience. I am going to tell it straight, blunt, raw, and I don’t give a damn. Long read, I know but please do read!!!

I went to volunteer on Saturday at the George R. Brown convention for two reasons.

A: I wanted to help people to get a warm fuzzy.
B: Curiosity.

I’ve been watching the news lately and have seen scenes that have made me want to vomit. And no it wasn’t dead bodies, the city under water, or the sludge everywhere. It was PEOPLE”S BEHAVIOR. The people on T.V. (99% being Black) where DEMANDING help. They were not asking nicely but demanding as if society owed these people something. Well the honest truth is WE DON’T. Help should be asked for in a kind manner and then appreciated. This is not what the press (FOX in particular) was showing, what I was seeing was a group of people who are yelling, demanding, looting, killing, raping, and SHOOTING back at the demanded help!!!!! So I’m thinking this can’t possibly be true can it???? So I decide to submit to the DEMAND for help out of SHOCK. I couldn’t believe this to be true of the majority of the people who are the weakest of society. So I went to volunteer and help folks out and see the truth. So I will tell the following story and you decide:

I arrived at the astrodome only to find out that there are too many volunteers and that volunteers where needed at the George R. Brown Convention Center. As I was walking up to the Convention Center I noticed a line of cars that wrapped around blocks filled with donations. These where ordinary Houstonians coming with truckloads and trunks full of water, diapers, clothes, blankets, food, all types of good stuff. And lots of it was NEW. I felt that warm fuzzy while helping unload these vehicles of these wonderful human beings. I then went inside the building and noticed approximately 100,000 sq. ft. of clothes, shoes, jackets, toys and all types of goodies all organized and ready for the people in need. I signed up, received a name badge and was on my merry way excited to be useful.

I toured the place to get familiar with my surrounding; the entire place is probably around 2 million sq. ft. I noticed rows as far as the eye can see of mattresses, not cots, BLOW UP MATTRESSES!!! All of which had nice pillows and plenty of blankets. 2 to 3 bottles of water lay on every bed. These full size to queen size beds by the way where comfortable, I laid in one to see for myself. I went to look at the medical area. I couldn’t believe what my eyes were seeing!!! A makeshift hospital created in 24 hours!!! It was unbelievable, they even had a pharmacy. I also noticed that they created showers, which would also have hot water. I went upstairs to the third floor to find a HUGE cafeteria created in under 24 hours! Rows of tables, chairs and food everywhere – enough to feed an army! I’m not talking about crap food either. They had jason’s deli food, apples, oranges, coke, diet coke, lemonade, orange juice, cookies, all types of chips and sandwiches. All the beverages by the way was put on ice and chilled!!!! In a matter of about 24 hours or less an entire mini-city was erected by volunteers for the poor evacuees. This was not your rundown crap shelter, it was BUM HEAVEN.

So that was the layout: great food, comfy beds, clean showers, free medical help, by the way there was a library, and a theatre room I forgot to mention. Great stuff right????

Well here is what happened on my journey –

I started by handing out COLD water bottles to evacuees as they got off the bus. Many would take them and only 20% or less said thank you. Lots of them would shake their heads and ask for sodas! So this went on for about 20-30 minutes until I was sick of being an unappreciated servant. I figured certainly these folks would appreciate some food!!! So I went upstairs to serve these beloved evacuees some GOOD food that I wish I could have at the moment!

***The following statements are graphic, truthful, and discuss UNRATIONAL behavior***

Evacuees come slowly to receive this mountain of food that is worth serving to a king! I tell them that we have 2 types of great deli sandwiches to choose from – ham and turkey. Many look at the food in disgust and DEMAND burgers, pizza, and even McDonalds!!!! Jason’s deli is better than McDonalds!!!! Only 1 out of ten people who took something would say “thank you” the rest took items as if it was their God give right to be served without a shred of appreciation!!! They would ask for Beer and liquor. They complained that we didn’t have good enough food. They refused food and laughed at us. They treated us volunteers as if we where SLAVES. No not all of them of course…but 70% did!!!!!! 20% where appreciative, 10% took the food without any comment and the other 70% had some disgusting comment to say. Some had the nerve to laugh at us. And when I snapped back at them for being mean, they would curse at me!!! Needless to say I was in utter shock. They would eat their food and leave their mess on the table… some would pick up their stuff many would leave it for the volunteers to pick up. I left that real quick to go down and help set up some more beds. I saw many young ladies carrying mattresses and I helped for a while. Then I realized something…their where hundreds of able bodied young men who could help!! I asked a group of young evacuees in their teens and early twenties to help. I got cursed at for asking them to help!!! One said “We just lost our ****ing homes and you want us to work!!” The next said “Ya Cracker, you got a home we don’t” I looked at them in disbelief. Here are women walking by carrying THEIR ****ING BEDS and they can’t lift a finger and help themselves!!

WHY THE **** SHOULD I HELP PEOPLE WHO DON’T WANT TO HELP THEMESELVES!!!!

I waved them off and turned away and was laughed at and more “white boy jokes” where made at me. I felt no need to waste my breath on a bunch of pitiful losers. I went to a nearby restroom where I noticed a man shaving. I used the restroom, washed my hands and saw this man throw his razor towards the trash can...he missed… he walked out leaving his disgusting razor on the floor for some other “cracker” to pick up. Even the little kids where demanding. I saw only ONE white family and only TWO Hispanic families. The rest where blacks…sorry 20% to 30% decent blacks… and 70% LOSERS!!!!!

I would call them ******S, but the actual definition of a ****** is one who is ignorant, these people were not ignorant……they where ARROGANT *******S. The majority of which are thugs and lifetime lazy ass welfare recipients. We are inviting the lowest of the low to Houston. And like idiots we are serving the people who will soon steal our cars, rape, murder, and destroy our city while stealing from our pockets on a daily basis through the welfare checks they take. We will fund our own destruction.

By “US” I don’t mean a specific race, I mean the people who work hard, work smart, have values and morals. Only people who want to help themselves should be helped, the others should be allowed to destroy themselves. I do not want to work hard, give the government close to half the money I earn so they can in turn give it to a bunch of losers.

I don’t believe in being poor for life. My family immigrated here, we came here poor, and now thank God, and due to HARD WORK we are doing fine. If immigrants, who come here, don’t know the language can work and become successful... WHY THE **** CAN’T THE MAJORITY OF THE HOMEGROWN DO IT!!! If we continue to reward these losers then we will soon destroy our great country. I just witnessed selfish, arrogant, unappreciative behavior by the very people who need help the most. Now these same people who cursed me, refused my cities generosity, who refuse to help themselves are DEMANDING handouts on their own terms!!!!!!! They prance around as if they are owed something, and when they do receive a handout, they say it’s not good enough! Well you know what……these types of people can go to hell for all I care!

[Axxon]

Well, it was a fun thread while it lasted. I'm outta here. Arlie, Flere, Jon, everybody. It's been a pleasure.

[Subby]

nevermind

[Subby]

dola

I'll reiterate...beautiful poem, Mr. Penberthy.

[Honolulu_Blue]

This is from a guy here in Houston that went to volunteer his time to help the hurricane victims. It is pretty sad and disappointing to think people could be so ungrateful.

SO I VOLUNTEERED..........

I thought I might inform the few friends I have on my recent traumatic experience. I am going to tell it straight, blunt, raw, and I don’t give a damn. Long read, I know but please do read!!!

I went to volunteer on Saturday at the George R. Brown convention for two reasons.

A: I wanted to help people to get a warm fuzzy.
B: Curiosity.

I’ve been watching the news lately and have seen scenes that have made me want to vomit. And no it wasn’t dead bodies, the city under water, or the sludge everywhere. It was PEOPLE”S BEHAVIOR. The people on T.V. (99% being Black) where DEMANDING help. They were not asking nicely but demanding as if society owed these people something. Well the honest truth is WE DON’T. Help should be asked for in a kind manner and then appreciated. This is not what the press (FOX in particular) was showing, what I was seeing was a group of people who are yelling, demanding, looting, killing, raping, and SHOOTING back at the demanded help!!!!! So I’m thinking this can’t possibly be true can it???? So I decide to submit to the DEMAND for help out of SHOCK. I couldn’t believe this to be true of the majority of the people who are the weakest of society. So I went to volunteer and help folks out and see the truth. So I will tell the following story and you decide:

I arrived at the astrodome only to find out that there are too many volunteers and that volunteers where needed at the George R. Brown Convention Center. As I was walking up to the Convention Center I noticed a line of cars that wrapped around blocks filled with donations. These where ordinary Houstonians coming with truckloads and trunks full of water, diapers, clothes, blankets, food, all types of good stuff. And lots of it was NEW. I felt that warm fuzzy while helping unload these vehicles of these wonderful human beings. I then went inside the building and noticed approximately 100,000 sq. ft. of clothes, shoes, jackets, toys and all types of goodies all organized and ready for the people in need. I signed up, received a name badge and was on my merry way excited to be useful.

I toured the place to get familiar with my surrounding; the entire place is probably around 2 million sq. ft. I noticed rows as far as the eye can see of mattresses, not cots, BLOW UP MATTRESSES!!! All of which had nice pillows and plenty of blankets. 2 to 3 bottles of water lay on every bed. These full size to queen size beds by the way where comfortable, I laid in one to see for myself. I went to look at the medical area. I couldn’t believe what my eyes were seeing!!! A makeshift hospital created in 24 hours!!! It was unbelievable, they even had a pharmacy. I also noticed that they created showers, which would also have hot water. I went upstairs to the third floor to find a HUGE cafeteria created in under 24 hours! Rows of tables, chairs and food everywhere – enough to feed an army! I’m not talking about crap food either. They had jason’s deli food, apples, oranges, coke, diet coke, lemonade, orange juice, cookies, all types of chips and sandwiches. All the beverages by the way was put on ice and chilled!!!! In a matter of about 24 hours or less an entire mini-city was erected by volunteers for the poor evacuees. This was not your rundown crap shelter, it was BUM HEAVEN.

So that was the layout: great food, comfy beds, clean showers, free medical help, by the way there was a library, and a theatre room I forgot to mention. Great stuff right????

Well here is what happened on my journey –

I started by handing out COLD water bottles to evacuees as they got off the bus. Many would take them and only 20% or less said thank you. Lots of them would shake their heads and ask for sodas! So this went on for about 20-30 minutes until I was sick of being an unappreciated servant. I figured certainly these folks would appreciate some food!!! So I went upstairs to serve these beloved evacuees some GOOD food that I wish I could have at the moment!

***The following statements are graphic, truthful, and discuss UNRATIONAL behavior***

Evacuees come slowly to receive this mountain of food that is worth serving to a king! I tell them that we have 2 types of great deli sandwiches to choose from – ham and turkey. Many look at the food in disgust and DEMAND burgers, pizza, and even McDonalds!!!! Jason’s deli is better than McDonalds!!!! Only 1 out of ten people who took something would say “thank you” the rest took items as if it was their God give right to be served without a shred of appreciation!!! They would ask for Beer and liquor. They complained that we didn’t have good enough food. They refused food and laughed at us. They treated us volunteers as if we where SLAVES. No not all of them of course…but 70% did!!!!!! 20% where appreciative, 10% took the food without any comment and the other 70% had some disgusting comment to say. Some had the nerve to laugh at us. And when I snapped back at them for being mean, they would curse at me!!! Needless to say I was in utter shock. They would eat their food and leave their mess on the table… some would pick up their stuff many would leave it for the volunteers to pick up. I left that real quick to go down and help set up some more beds. I saw many young ladies carrying mattresses and I helped for a while. Then I realized something…their where hundreds of able bodied young men who could help!! I asked a group of young evacuees in their teens and early twenties to help. I got cursed at for asking them to help!!! One said “We just lost our ****ing homes and you want us to work!!” The next said “Ya Cracker, you got a home we don’t” I looked at them in disbelief. Here are women walking by carrying THEIR ****ING BEDS and they can’t lift a finger and help themselves!!

WHY THE **** SHOULD I HELP PEOPLE WHO DON’T WANT TO HELP THEMESELVES!!!!

I waved them off and turned away and was laughed at and more “white boy jokes” where made at me. I felt no need to waste my breath on a bunch of pitiful losers. I went to a nearby restroom where I noticed a man shaving. I used the restroom, washed my hands and saw this man throw his razor towards the trash can...he missed… he walked out leaving his disgusting razor on the floor for some other “cracker” to pick up. Even the little kids where demanding. I saw only ONE white family and only TWO Hispanic families. The rest where blacks…sorry 20% to 30% decent blacks… and 70% LOSERS!!!!!

I would call them ******S, but the actual definition of a ****** is one who is ignorant, these people were not ignorant……they where ARROGANT *******S. The majority of which are thugs and lifetime lazy ass welfare recipients. We are inviting the lowest of the low to Houston. And like idiots we are serving the people who will soon steal our cars, rape, murder, and destroy our city while stealing from our pockets on a daily basis through the welfare checks they take. We will fund our own destruction.

By “US” I don’t mean a specific race, I mean the people who work hard, work smart, have values and morals. Only people who want to help themselves should be helped, the others should be allowed to destroy themselves. I do not want to work hard, give the government close to half the money I earn so they can in turn give it to a bunch of losers.

I don’t believe in being poor for life. My family immigrated here, we came here poor, and now thank God, and due to HARD WORK we are doing fine. If immigrants, who come here, don’t know the language can work and become successful... WHY THE **** CAN’T THE MAJORITY OF THE HOMEGROWN DO IT!!! If we continue to reward these losers then we will soon destroy our great country. I just witnessed selfish, arrogant, unappreciative behavior by the very people who need help the most. Now these same people who cursed me, refused my cities generosity, who refuse to help themselves are DEMANDING handouts on their own terms!!!!!!! They prance around as if they are owed something, and when they do receive a handout, they say it’s not good enough! Well you know what……these types of people can go to hell for all I care!
Wow. Just... wow.

While whatever the fuck you would call the above does show a different story, then "the one fed to us by the popular media" about conditions in the shelters ect., how can you trust anything this guy/woman says given the rest of the crap in there?

Wow....

Every time capsicum makes a post, god kills a kitten.

http://demoni.ca/albums/coolpics/fde3d693.thumb.jpg

And with that, I'll follow my good man Axxon's lead and exit stage right. Adios.

[Ksyrup]

I can confirm that volunteers were being turned away in Houston on Saturday. My brother and his wife (a doctor and nurse) were told they weren't needed when they showed up to volunteer.

[Glengoyne]

Maybe it's because the FEMA trainer realized that their leader was a complete incompetent who got his job by cronyism? ;)

That's entirely possible. He was mayor during the Clinton yearshttp://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif.

Edit to add:
Really I'm just pointing out that Mr Brown is far from the first guy to run FEMA with little relevant experience going in.

In fact my thought is that the head of the organization is actually not responsible for making the decisions that probably caused the troubles. He's certainly not the guy organizing the transportation of supplies into a disaster area, nor the buses to transport people out. The people making those decisions and directly responsible for organizing such things on short notice, aren't political appointments. I'd guess they are more likely permanent employees, who should have done this type of thing before. What this points out to me, more than just that Mike Brown is a moron, is that there has to be systemic problems within FEMA.

[flere-imsaho]

Let me explain what's wrong with what you posted, capsicum.

Any one of us could go out on the internet, right now, and find similar junk to post that would be diametrically opposed to your viewpoint, but would contain the same amount of vitriol and hate-mongering.

However, none of us have done that. Why? Because it accomplishes nothing and only serves to polarize any discussion that is happening.

I can only assume you post this kind of stuff for one of two reasons:

1. You deliberately wish to start fights and make people mad. I.e. you're a troll.

2. In your world, this kind of discourse is acceptable, and you don't regularly associate with people who do not share your narrow worldview.

If it happens to be #2, I'd like to ask you to read more, post less, and try to understand what's appropriate and what is not. In time people may at least listen to, if not agree with, your viewpoint.


And yes, I'm out of this thread too. I'm sure I'll catch Arles, JIMG, et. al. around and about. Hard to believe there has come a time when I look forward to a reasonable discussion with JIMG.

[rexallllsc]

mmmkkaaayyy

[capsicum]

Please read my qualifying statement. I do not agree all of this persons sentiments. I also recieved emails from folks that voluntered to drive school busses donated by schools down to help with the evacuess , only to be told by the very people they were trying to help to "go home", it seems the people didnt find the school busses comfortable enough to make the long ride to houston in....they wanted charter busses and would wait for them.
I dont understand the mentality of people who stand around complaining that government is failing to get them help and then refusing to be helped when offered a chance to leave.

I believe many americans are still unaware of this phenomenon.

Im a little amazed that people there would stand around the flooded streets and in the filth with theyre children before agreeing to get on a school bus and ride to saftey.

I think this is what embittered "this volunteer".

[capsicum]

I would also like to say I in no way believe that this phenomena is solely New Orleans based.

I have voluntered in many soup kitchens feeding the homeless and hungry ,personally and witnessed this same additude. It has always amazed me. And NEVER stopped me from returning to help again.

[Subby]

84 kittens dead and counting...

[Antmeister]

Well, for one, the president declared an emergency days before:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html


Seems like an odd thing to do if the storm wasn't expected to hit then. And, until the governor agreed to hand over control to the feds, that was about the extend of what Bush and company could do. Instead, the governor waited until Sunday to order an manual evacuation (at Bush's insistence):

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:RGrwXIfpv8UJ:www.cnn.com/rssclick/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/%3Fsection%3Dcnn_topstories


Waiting that long to respond severly hurt the ability to evacuate all those without vehicles. So, instead of busing out the poor over the weekend, we were left with thousands of New Orleans residents who lacked cars being stuck in the city during the storm with the following buses unused:
http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix2/pic17908.jpg

That's a great use of resources :rolleyes:


Actually this is very interesting. First of all, I am going only by recollection of events before the disaster and I did not know this occured. Most of the news casts I was watching were talking about a possible hurricane in Florida, but if this is the case, then this makes FEMA look even worse and there is even less of an excuse to why they couldn't react on time. If they were given a 48 hour lead time, then that is simply unexcusable. That means they should have been there at the most, 1 day after the disaster hit.

And you are right that it was inexcusable that people weren't organized. After the events of Hurricane Ivan, people knew that a majority of the poor had no means to evacuate. Here is an article that eerily raised that question in 2004:

http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/o/nov04/nov04c.html

I don't know if this should have been handled by the city or the state, but either way it didn't seem liked either one was concerned enough to do anything about that problem. With that said, the slow response time, in my opinion, magnified the problem becaue it had increased the numbers for death toll. So both work hand in hand. However the first problem deals what would have been a nice evacuation procedure, but unfortunately one wasn't in place. The second deals with an organization whose main duty is to respond to disasters and they simply fell on their face.

[Dutch]

84 kittens dead and counting...

please think of the kittens!

[sachmo71]

Please read my qualifying statement. I do not agree all of this persons sentiments. I also recieved emails from folks that voluntered to drive school busses donated by schools down to help with the evacuess , only to be told by the very people they were trying to help to "go home", it seems the people didnt find the school busses comfortable enough to make the long ride to houston in....they wanted charter busses and would wait for them.
I dont understand the mentality of people who stand around complaining that government is failing to get them help and then refusing to be helped when offered a chance to leave.

I believe many americans are still unaware of this phenomenon.

Im a little amazed that people there would stand around the flooded streets and in the filth with theyre children before agreeing to get on a school bus and ride to saftey.

I think this is what embittered "this volunteer".


How do you know it's true?

[st.cronin]

I haven't read the whole thread.

Perhaps it's just my contrary nature, but I honestly believe that when all is said and done, there will be not much blame to go around. This was an unprecented disaster; there really was NO way for the US (or LA or MS) to be properly prepared. I think people did the best they could with the information they had.

Not every bad thing that happens is somebody's fault.

Including capsicum.

[NoMyths]

Unbelievable.

I'm removing the poem. I don't usually believe in deleting threads, but I will request that SkyDog lock this one.

[heybrad]

Repost it in a new thread. Its a great poem.

Too bad people come in and crap on this thread.

[capsicum]

How do you know it's true?


Because it was emailed to me from a school bus driver here in California that I know personally. We worked together for the same elementary school for several years. I taught , she drove school buses. She emailed me this morning after getting back home. She was very angry and upset that so many people were not taking the help that was being offered.

And that very few "if any" people were reporting about what they had experienced first hand.

[NoMyths]

Repost it in a new thread. Its a great poem.

Too bad people come in and crap on this thread.
I appreciate the sentiment (and the kind words), but I don't think there'd be much point. Folks have had a chance to read it, and most were interested in partisan bickering instead. I do appreciate the thoughtfulness of those who didn't take that road.

If anyone would like a copy of the poem, I'd be happy to PM them one.

[MrBigglesworth]

If you have a emergency, and call upon FEMA and the Federal Government to assist you, call before you NEED the help, it will take them seventy two hours to properly respond. Now I don't know when the call was made, but it certainly wasn't done Friday or Saturday, when it would have done the most good.
LA asked for help the Friday before the hurricane.

[Ryan S]

Unbelievable.

I'm removing the poem. I don't usually believe in deleting threads, but I will request that SkyDog lock this one.

Done