not going to be a dad

[hoopsguy]

No, this is not a parody thread.

I got some pretty depressing news this afternoon and I'm still trying to really process it on some levels. I guess I'm looking at FOFC to serve as a pseudo-diary this evening. My wife and I have been married for a little over four years now. We have been trying to have kids for about 2 1/2 of those years. After the first year of no luck trying the good old-fashioned way it came time to talk to some doctors and see if they could shed some light on this.

Some background info - I'm currently 33 and my wife is 34. So she is now starting to move up the ladder in terms of "good" years for a woman to have kids.

Anyways, Tammy (my wife) was originally tested by her gynacologist, who said that she passed the initial test with flying colors. So it was time for me to get checked out. This involved a sperm test. I learned that there are three main areas: motility, morphology, and count. Basically, that translates to how well they swim, how well constructed they are, and how many they are. The results were depressing across the board. Two additional test revealed similar results; actually none scored as well as the first :eek:

From there, I got to see a couple of additional doctors who attempted to determine why I had these issues. But no answers were forthcoming. So it was time to move on to see a fertility specialist.

Before doing this, we had to switch insurance plans. I work for a pretty small company that picks up the cost of insurance as part of the compensation plan. However, they did not cover much in the way of infertility treatments. Tammy works for a larger company that covers a wide range of infertility treatments, but we now were on the dime for about 2,000 a year in additional expenses. Still, this was a small price to pay for the treatments we had to go through.

After finding a fertility doctor, we learned that IVF was the way to go, based on our conditions. They actually went a route called IVF with ICSI. IVF, for those who don't know, is a process of stimulating a woman to produce as many eggs as possible. These eggs are then extracted (day surgery) and sperm are added in a petri dish. Either three or five days later the best of the embryos are inserted to the uterus to develop. ICSI takes it one step further, by directly injecting each egg with one sperm.

The woman is stimulated to mass produce eggs through the use of multiple drugs. I have never been very comfortable with needles, but I needed to get over this in a hurry because Tammy needed two rounds of shots a day, in either the thigh, gut, or butt (depending on which drug at what stage). She was also taking pills. None of this is very much fun for the woman, as she is basically being shot up with hormones and steroids. The goal here is to produce as many eggs as possible, so you have more feasible embryos to choose from when implantation rolls around. If you have an abundance of embryos you have the option to freeze them. A lot of the cost from IVF stems from the cost of retrieval. Implantation is not nearly as costly, from what I understand.

There is a whole rating system for embryos that I now can file under useless information, much like what I had to learn about diamonds when shopping for an engagement ring. Basically, eggs are judged based on the number of cells and a quality rating. We had a total of four cycles, and started off with unbelievably good embryos. You have to decide how many embryos to put in the woman; the more you select, the greater chance of having multiples. During each of the cycles we selected 2-3 embryos. But we saw the quality go down from cycle to cycle, as if Tammy's body was just not continuing to generate high-quality eggs after being run through the spin cycle multiple times.

After the first two failed attempts (a total of five embryos, ranging from just about perfect to very good) we went through some additional tests. Nothing particularly damning was found. The doctor mixed up the protocol (what drugs, what amounts) a little bit but we didn't have any better results. I don't think I mentioned this earlier, but insurance only covers four IVF attempts. You can get two additional attempts under insurance (for Illinois, anyways) if you successfully deliver a child in the first four. So we were freaking out in a big way after our third failed attempt. We had tried the first two attempts with only one month of separation in between, but waited for about five months between attempts 2 and 3 to let Tammy's body recover and for us to get to a point where we felt like we could be optimistic about the process again. But after the third one failed, we looked at a number of additional doctors and tried to make sure we explored our options.

We did end up going to a sub-specialist that was referred by our initial doctor after attempt #3 failed. This doctor was usually referenced in cases where the woman had experienced multiple miscarriages. But she ran a number of additional tests, most of which were covered by insurance after excessive wrangling. This doctor was out of network, but there were no equivalent doctors in network so we were able to get in-network coverage for many of these tests. The results indicated a number of previously undiagnosed issues with Tammy. There were problems related to folic acid content (too low), and a tendency for her blood to clot too readily (not good for an embryo trying to hunker down somewhere on the uterine wall). Finally, Tammy's body produced a number of cells that basically treated the embryo like a foreign invader and tried to kill it. All of these things are treatable, but require more pills, stronger steroids, and blood thinners. So the usual battery of shots doubled.

Anyways, I realize this is really long and rambling. But the net of it is that we got news this afternoon that attempt #4 has also failed, although they want Tammy to take one more pregnancy test on Monday just to absolutely, positively rule out a pregnancy this time around. So even with insurance picking up the four attempts we have invested thousands of dollars in insurance costs and flex spending dollards pursuing a dream that we are not going to realize. And this doesn't begin to cover the emotional baggage associated with these attempts. With each attempt we tried to convince ourselves we were going to be successful, only to see the hopes dashed five weeks later. Our work and personal schedules were put upside-down to make the numerous doctors appointments and meet the regularly scheduled shot routines every cycle. It just feels like an enormous waste of time right now.

I've wanted to be a dad for just about as long as I can remember. I had a really terrific relationship with my father growing up. I had a not-so-terrific relationship with my mother growing up. I certainly had compiled my notions of what kind of father I wanted to be and was really looking forward to having my father be a grandfather. I have one brother who is not married (28 years old) and doesn't seem likely to be married anytime soon. So I'm not sure that he is going to get the opportunity to be a grandfather.

I know that there are other options for being a dad if this is a be-all, end-all goal for me. I'll avoid commenting on this for now, as I don't think I'm in the right frame of mind to put forth carefull considered message-board style opinions right now.

I'm hoping that other people who visit this message board do not have to go through this proceedure, or at least not experience these non-results. From what I understand, the fertility field is vastly improved over where it was even five years ago. I know numerous other couples, either directly or through stories from friends, who have been successful in their efforts through IVF, IUI, or other treatments.

If someone does have questions on this kind of ordeal, I would be more than happy to share my perspective or talk about it via PM. I know that I struggled to find good counsel while going through this. Most people's exposure to this is pretty limited, and every wants to tell you that:
1.) It will work out (I hate that one)
2.) What is meant to be will be (I hate that one even more)
3.) "I know someone who went through the exact same thing" (that was completely different) "and it worked out for them"

Anyways, thanks to anyone who read this entire short story. I hope that this gets a little easier to deal with in the days/weeks/months to come.

[Blade6119]

wow, words cannot describe hoops....if beyond sorry...my thoughts goout to you and your wife and i hope you can come through with a positive attitude somehow...i have always enjoyed your company here on this board and you have a unique ability to make me laugh...im sorry

[mhass]

I really feel for you but I'd encourage you to keep at it at whatever pace you can afford. I have some very dear friends who had a miscarriage about 8 years ago and were told that the miscarriage rendered her infertile. She gave birth in June. :) Don't give up if it's something you really want as bad as it sounds like.

[DaddyTorgo]

geez man. i can't imagine. that's horrible. i don't even know what to say really. just wanted to say that i sympathize and am dissapointed for you.

[MizzouRah]

I wish the best for you and your wife. I sincerely hope something works for the both of you. I can't begin to imagine the pain you're going through right now and maybe adoption is a viable option for you and your wife?

A friend of mine had problems and well, they finally adopted a beautiful little girl. They are such great parents that I'm glad there are people like him and his wife out there who can give a child so much love.

[hoopsguy]

Mhass, it isn't like we'll stop trying the old-fashioned way :) But with issues on both of our sides, and her age starting to creep up I'm not holding out hope of a natural pregnancy. I guess miracles do happen, but even when I was the only one diagnosed with issues it was strongly suggested that we would not have realistic hopes of achieving pregancy going the natural route.

[Neon_Chaos]

hoopsguy, words cannot express how much I feel for you and your situation. I can't even begin to explain how I would feel if such a heavy burden were put on my shoulders.

Always remember, however, that, yes, there are other alternatives to fatherhood (i.e. adoption). There are a lot of kids out there who need the love and care of people who are willing to give it to them. I'm sure that you'll be a great dad to some kid someday.

Don't ever lose hope, man. i only wish you the best, and I hope you get through this situation and get to move on.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Hoops - as much pain as you're in right now, I can just imagine what your wife must be going through. Please give her a big hug for me.

[Barkeep49]

Hoops, as someone who wants to be a father one day I can only imagine how hard this day is for you. I wish you and your wife the best as you go through this difficult period.

[Passacaglia]

Sorry to hear, hoopsguy. It's great that you had a terrific relationship with your father -- so many parents or potential parents (including me) think about what kind of parent they want to be based on something they feel their parents should or should not have done -- I think it's great that you can look to your parents (or at least one of them) as an example of the kind of parent you want to be.

[Glengoyne]

Sorry to hear about this. I know a couple who went through much the same thing as you described(your #3), and they have since adopted two wonderful children. That process had more than its fair share of problems as well. So while it isn't very comforting to hear...you still do have some options available to you. We'll be thinking of you and your wife. Good Luck with the old fashioned way as well.

[Neuqua]

Really sorry to hear it. I wish you the best of luck in however you continue to step forward with the whole procedure.

[vtbub]

:(

[Craptacular]

Sorry to hear that hoopsguy. As others have already said, one way or another, you'll have an opportunity to be a great father to a child.

[sterlingice]

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif Don't really have much to go with this but wish you well

SI

[Lathum]

Hoops I know this must be tough on you and cliche's arent what you want to hear. This is what I can tell you. I was adopted. It was all pre aranged and I was 5 days old. My relationship with my parents is increadable. I have never once NOT thought of them as my parents. I have never been interested in finding out who my biological parents are because to me that would be insulting. I am now 30 and still don't know why my parents didn't have kids. I have an older sister who is just that, an older sister. I can assure you we are just as close as any other family and there aren't enough good people out there like you to be great parents, I was lucky.

If you ever want to talk about things from the perspective of someone who is adopted theen PM me, I'm there for you my friend.

[Poli]

Sorry hoops. I don't know what else to say.

[JeffNights]

Blah, Doctors/smocters....

Despite what you say, Stuff against the odds happens all the time when it comes to having a baby.

its called, "The Miracle of Life."

[Karlifornia]

Damn, man...I hope it happens for you when you guys least expect it...

[johnnyshaka]

Hoops I know this must be tough on you and cliche's arent what you want to hear. This is what I can tell you. I was adopted. It was all pre aranged and I was 5 days old. My relationship with my parents is increadable. I have never once NOT thought of them as my parents. I have never been interested in finding out who my biological parents are because to me that would be insulting. I am now 30 and still don't know why my parents didn't have kids. I have an older sister who is just that, an older sister. I can assure you we are just as close as any other family and there aren't enough good people out there like you to be great parents, I was lucky.

If you ever want to talk about things from the perspective of someone who is adopted theen PM me, I'm there for you my friend.

I'll echo Lathum here...adopted at birth by two great parents and have a younger brother who was also adopted...not my biological brother...who was my best man last summer and I'll be his best man next summer...needless to say, we are as close as any family can be. Ever since I can remember I've known that I've been adopted and never cared why my folks went that route...just glad they did.

Don't know what else to say but I do hope things somehow workout for you and your wife.

[Lorena]

Hoops, I don't know what to say... just know that my thoughts are with you and your wife as you go through this very difficult time. :(

[Mo.Raider]

Hoops-

My wife and I feel for you. We tried unsuccessfully to conceive for six years. Since adoption was always in our plans we didn't pursue infertility treatments to the extent that you have, but we did definitely become semi-experts in the field, and grew tired of those doctor visits :( . Long story short, we have since adopted a baby girl from Korea. She was only five months old when she arrived with a smile for mom and dad right off the plane. She is now nearly two, and every time we look at her we know why we didn't get pregnant. She is our little miracle, and we can't wait to adopt again. It is hard to even remember the pain we went through during our infertility years. We just want you to know that adoption is the same and our daughter made us feel complete. Whether you choose to adopt, or your wife conceives, we pray that you will soon realize your dream of being a dad.

God bless you,

MO

[Loren]

Mhass, it isn't like we'll stop trying the old-fashioned way :) But with issues on both of our sides, and her age starting to creep up I'm not holding out hope of a natural pregnancy. I guess miracles do happen, but even when I was the only one diagnosed with issues it was strongly suggested that we would not have realistic hopes of achieving pregancy going the natural route.

dr's are human they cant say exactly how things will be....here's my teeny story ive alwasy remembered, when i was pregnant 7 yrs ago, sittin waiting to see the stupidhead OB..the woman next to me started talking to me, apparently her and her husband had tried to conceive for the majority of the 29 yrs theyd been together, finally just gave up seeing drs and everything different after 15 yrs once they were clearly told they wouldnt be able to have children due to some of her reproductive problems(embryo not being able to implant itself), if it did she'd always lose the baby within the 1st trimester SO they just settled on the fact that they wouldnt have children..then at 46, went to the dr and found out she was 3 1/2 mths pregnant with twins:)

[digamma]

I wouldn't mention this if I didn't read it today. I truly feel for you. My best regards. My sister went through a very similar scenario over the last few years. They tried just about everything, to no avail. After much consideration, they decided to try to adopt. A year ago today, they got a call saying their son had been born. They were able to take him home from the hospital. He's been a blessing to our whole family--and he's definitely their son. I know you aren't really at a point to consider things like that, but given the timing, I couldn't keep my mouth shut.

[Draft Dodger]

can't think of anything better to say than I'm sorry and best of luck to you and your wife

[mrsimperless]

Sorry to hear about your struggles.

For what its worth I enjoyed your story. I've never gone through anything similar myself and there was a lot of information in there I did not know. Thanks for writing that up and best of luck to you.

[Subby]

Thanks for sharing your story and I am deeply sorry for you arnd your wife's troubles.

[mhass]

dr's are human they cant say exactly how things will be....here's my teeny story ive alwasy remembered, when i was pregnant 7 yrs ago, sittin waiting to see the stupidhead OB..the woman next to me started talking to me, apparently her and her husband had tried to conceive for the majority of the 29 yrs theyd been together, finally just gave up seeing drs and everything different after 15 yrs once they were clearly told they wouldnt be able to have children due to some of her reproductive problems(embryo not being able to implant itself), if it did she'd always lose the baby within the 1st trimester SO they just settled on the fact that they wouldnt have children..then at 46, went to the dr and found out she was 3 1/2 mths pregnant with twins:)
That reminds me of another story. My parents' next-door neighbors were told they were unable to have kids and adopted two over about five years - both from other countries and both are really neat kids. Then about 3 yrs. ago...surprise! The wife gets pregnant without even really 'trying' http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif and they now have three of the most wildly disparate looking kids I've ever seen. But they are happy. Point being, don't ever rule it out.

[terpkristin]

Wow, hoopsguy. I'm so sorry for both you and your wife. I can't imagine what it will be like if I find out I can't have kids (when I'm ready to). I must echo Farrah's thoughts here, that your wife is probably feeling even worse than you are (and I know you're feeling awful), so be sure to take care of her, too. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you two decide for your future.

:(

/tk

[KWhit]

My wife and I had a very difficult time trying to conceive. We were told that we had only a 2% chance of having a child even with IUI. We tried 2 of those and were about to move on to IVF. None of this was covered by insurance, BTW. It was going to cost us about $20,000 per attempt. We were all set to go for round one when we got some bad news - an initial test revealed that we had to wait a month (at least) before moving forward because of a temporary issue with my wife. A month isn't a long time, but we were just so geared up and excited about it that it totally deflated us.

During that month we conceived naturally. Tyler was born 9 months later.

We were very lucky. Our fertility problems weren't as serious as the doctors thought. My point isn't to say that this will happen to you and your wife, but just to let you know that it can happen and to keep an open mind and don't give up.

[Bonegavel]

So sorry to hear, my friend.

My M.O. in this situation is to not give you those catch-phrases ("it will be ok," "Que sera sera," et al), but to simply let you know another human being is hanging his head with you.

You are a good man and deserve more than this.

And, FWIW, I miss Don the Baptist, Miss Revlon, BlackPanther, and all the others. I hope you're coming back to CoH.

[KWhit]

Another note: One of my best friends in the world is recently went through problems very similar to what you described. He and his wife are now pursuing adoption. A couple of things that I have seen work for them -

1) Don't think through adoption yet. Let this settle for a month or two. You guys are too emotional to be objective right now objectively to weigh the pros and cons.

2) If later on you do decide that adoption is for you, look into hiring an adoption consultant. This is someone that you work with to find the baby right for you. I'm sure it's not cheap (my friend has the resources to do this), but the consultant is his advocate and has contacts with multiple agencies all over the country. She has consulted them on how to write their parental profile and has been a solid advisor in the process. Supposedly, she has the ability to get them exactly the baby they are looking for. We'll see how that goes, but so far they are happy with the work she has done for them.

[JeeberD]

I feel awful for you, hoops. Hopefully things will work out in the end...

[Anthony]

best of luck to you and your wife.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow, I'm sorry to hear all this, hoops. Good luck to you and your wife. Lady H_B and I haven't yet begun trying to get pregnant, it's a few years down the road yet. But something like this does weigh in the back of my mind. Again, good luck.

[Peter215]

I am going throught everything you described. I know all about the rollercoaster. It ends in a crash every time. I know about getting on that same rollercoaster only to have it crash again. We have been through the testing, the shots, IUI, IVF, ICSI, many thousands of dollars, hundreds of hours of office visits (sometimes every day). We have done everything that even MIGHT help. We have done accupuncture because... hell... it can't hurt. It's only a thousand or so more dollars and only 10-12 more office visits per try. I had never given a shot before all this. Now I have given... I don't know 400? 500? more? Including many of the big, nasty intra-muscular ones. My wife is a damn pin cushion. And all this pales in comparison to all the heart-ache. I have always wanted to be a dad. Until I had to go down this road, I had no idea how hard it could be. I could guess but it is so much harder than I ever dreamed. I don't deserve this. I watch people get pregnant all the time. Why not me? People who don't even want a child. People who clearly don't deserve a child.

We are at the point now where we are going down the adoption road. That is a long, hard road, too but our goal is to have a family. And unlike infertility treatments, adoption will work. We will have a family. It took a while to be ready for this. You have to grieve the loss of your fertility. When I first looked at an adoption website, I cried and had to stop. Over time, I began to think, hey, this is ok. We are really excited now. Give it time.

Everyone always tells us stories of people they know that got pregnant after infertility. It does not help. I know they mean well and I really appreciate the intention but it does not help. Really nothing will.

I am so sorry that you are going through this, too. It sucks.

[Raiders Army]

Sorry to hear about it hoops. Like some of the others, I'm adopted. I was born in Seoul, Korea, and my parents (both Caucasian) adopted me and brought me over to the United States. I can tell you that I know I was wanted as a child...probably moreso than my friends. Adoption is a very good option.

[ice4277]

Sorry to hear this :( Try to stay positive though. These things can have a way of working out in the end.

[revrew]

hoops and peter,
My best friend tried for years to have a child. When I met him, we had 2 children; today we have 10, all by natural childbirth. It was painful for him to see us get pregnant again and again and again, while he and his wife could not. There is no doubt that people who don't deserve children are often blessed with babes, while those that could be fantastic parents are unable. Such is the case with our two families. He and his wife are far better parents to their one adopted son than we have ever been to our natural 10. I will offer no cliche except to say that after the years of heartache, my friend and his wife are supremely grateful for their little boy. That gratitude has been an example to many around them, and they are far better parents today because of their joy and thankfulness over their son (whom they named after me...God, that's a humbling thing for me).

[hhiipp]

My wife and I had trouble conceiving as well, not quite to your extent, but there were still issues involving IUI, specialists, shots, etc.

What really sucks about the whole deal is that in your high school and college years you were so worried about getting a girl pregnant that you double and triple wrapped. Now you find out that your soldiers aren't marching to the proper beat and you missed out on all those good sensations in your previous encounters.

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do from here on forward.

[Tom E]

ADOPT

[Peter215]

ADOPT
Wow, a one word answer. Isn't that great. And to think, I have been in pain for years over this. Why didn't you come along sooner with your great advice. It's all better now.

I realize that this is a message board and maybe you don't mean it like it comes across to me. But it comes across as THE WORST COMMENT I have experienced. It doesn't even sound like you read anything above.

This topic is probably much to raw for me to be posing about but that comment really pissed me off.

[Maple Leafs]

I think everyone should have to read about stories like this, and think about them the next time they have the urge to fire off a witty "so, when are you having kids?" comment during casual conversation.

Most people aren't interested in talking about their personal decisions anyways, and for some people that question is like a kick in the gut every time it's asked.

[CamEdwards]

I'm really sorry to hear about this hoopsguy. I'm one of those people revrew mentioned as well. But as someone who's a dad to both biological and adopted kids, I gotta tell you they're both great experiences.

[TargetPractice6]

Wow, a one word answer. Isn't that great. And to think, I have been in pain for years over this. Why didn't you come along sooner with your great advice. It's all better now.

I realize that this is a message board and maybe you don't mean it like it comes across to me. But it comes across as THE WORST COMMENT I have experienced. It doesn't even sound like you read anything above.

This topic is probably much to raw for me to be posing about but that comment really pissed me off.I asked him once if he ever contributes anything to the board, and I'm still wondering.

And I honest have no idea what to say to you and hoops. Sounds like a horrible experience that I really can't imagine. I'm glad to hear that you are excited about adoption though. For me at least, it's nice to hear when a child like this finds a home with parents that really want them.

[Klinglerware]

I asked him once if he ever contributes anything to the board, and I'm still wondering.

Well, if you look at his post history you can see why this would get him riled up, and I do feel badly for his situation. But with that being said, I think his response when Icy announced that his wife was pregnant might have dampened the mood a little...

[TargetPractice6]

Well, if you look at his post history you can see why this would get him riled up, and I do feel badly for his situation. But with that being said, I think his response when Icy announced that his wife was pregnant might have dampened the mood a little...I meant I wonder if Tom E ever contributes anything to board. Every time I see a post of his it's always something ignorant and abrasive.

[Klinglerware]

I meant I wonder if Tom E ever contributes anything to board. Every time I see a post of his it's always something ignorant and abrasive.

Okay, never mind...

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm just catching up on threads. I'm so sorry to hear this hoopsguy. What you described is probably my greatest fear. I desperately want to be a dad within the next few years, and we've had a few accidents where Mrs. Eaglesfan has forgotten to take her birth control pill or whatever but she hasn't become pregnant during those accidents. I'm afraid that when we try to have kids in 2 or 3 years, we might not be able to. Anyway, you and your wife are in my thoughts and prayers.

[Solecismic]

I hope the doctors are wrong. My parents were told pretty much the same thing, though tests were much less sophisticated in their day and in-vitro didn't exist. After about eight years of trying, they decided to adopt.

My mom held the baby for about one minute, then gave it back. I know that sounds terrible and there are many babies out there that need adoption, but she just felt she couldn't do it.

A month later, she became pregnant for the first time. The doctors didn't think it would go full-term, because her mother had something like six miscarriages. But it did, which is why I'm here.

So, since the doctors were on a roll, they told her there was no chance she'd ever have another. Which is why my little sister is less than 15 months younger than I am.

[FrogMan]

hoopsguy, you can't believe how close to home you are hitting. As you may know, I, as many others around, have been blessed with two beautiful child. They are the joy of our somewhat small family (the only grandchild on both side, as my wife is an only child and my sister, well read on) However, my own little sister and her husband have been trying for the last two years to no avail. She's about your age and has had two miscarriages already. It breaks my heart whenever I hear/read about stories like yours, honestly. Even more so, it always seems to happen to people who would really want to be parents.

Sadly, not much I can tell you, other than you are in my thoughts and I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do...

FM

[sterlingice]

I think everyone should have to read about stories like this, and think about them the next time they have the urge to fire off a witty "so, when are you having kids?" comment during casual conversation.

Most people aren't interested in talking about their personal decisions anyways, and for some people that question is like a kick in the gut every time it's asked.
As an aside, I'm glad that no one has actually asked my wife and I that either before the wedding or in the now roughly 6 weeks after. Thankfully, I have parents who aren't like that but unfortunately, I have friends who aren't as lucky and are actually under pressure about this from their parents :(

SI

[muns]

Man hoops, you and your wife will be in my prayers

MUNS

[hoopsguy]

Thanks to everyone for their kind words. There are a number of responses here that really hit home.

On the topic of adoption, during our process it was a Plan B that we didn't want to distract from Plan A. I'm not sure if this sounds horrible or logical, but our first preference was to have Tammy carry a child if that was an option.

Now that a pregnancy seems out of the question, we'll take a little bit of time to cool off and probably start exploring adoption. Get a feel for the costs and the process and determine if we want to dive right in (wife's pref) or pay down some debt accumulated during this ordeal for a year or so before going down this road (my initial feeling).

The flip side on adoption is that there is a part of me that thinks that it seems silly to feel like I need to have a kid to feel fulfilled. That if this is the hand I've been dealt that I can devote more time to:
1.) Being a great husband
2.) Really taking my career to another level
3.) Build wealth - obviously there are a number of expenses associated with children
4.) Have fun - there are a ton of places that Tammy and I would love to visit. Not having children means we will have the flexibility that comes with time and money
5.) Enjoy other people's children - lots of the fun, little of the responsibility

But when I think about this, I keep coming back to last Thanksgiving when my dad and step-mom travelled to Detroit to see family friends who have two young children (4 and 2 at the time, I believe). My step-moms son had a child with his former girlfriend, but his life was a mess and he lost them both. He doesn't know where they are. I'm convinced the break-up with my step-mom (and dad) was tougher for the girlfiend that breaking up with the guy as they were unbelievably doting grandparents. And I don't know how I would deny them the chance to be grandparents again if adoption is an option.

I hear that many couples look at overseas options for adoption; I had no idea that this was so common. Are these options driven by cost, availability of children, shorter approval process, etc?

Anyways, if I seemed abrupt on the idea of adoption in the initial post it was because the emotion of yesterday was pretty raw and that the idea of adopting was not going to address my current state. I know that I need to work through some period of mourning for something I have never had - I just don't know what the schedule is supposed to be for this.

Peter, you brought up a number of comments that I didn't include in the initial post for one reason or another - heck, it already felt like a novel with what I did include. But we have seen a ton of our friends (or wives of friends, as applicable) get pregnant while we have been going through this. Two guys who stood up in my wedding were really sheepish when they told me that they were expecting a kid. It was so strange, that they were concerned about how I would take it when they were getting this astonishingly good news. And, of course, I put up a good face. But it does get frustrating when everyone around you is getting pregnant and having kids. It is inevitable for some feelings of bitterness and envy to arise. At least it was for us. My wife works in HR and has two co-workers in her office who were pregnant at the same time. That was just a brutal time for her, with the emotional swings. You try not to resent other people's happiness and good fortune, but it is extremely challenging. And, during this period, of course everyone who stopped by Tammy's office inquired when she would be announcing her pregnancy. Natural question, but something that was the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard for her.

For everyone who expressed special concern/sympathy for Tammy, it is well placed. This ordeal is SO much tougher on the woman, as she has to endure 2x as many doctor's appointments, all the physical pain of invasive surgeries, the weight gain that comes with ingesting steroids coupled with not being able to work out because of pain from intramuscular shots, and the barrage of shots. Compared to that, my part was relatively easy. I know that the majority of the readers here are guys, but it is flat heroic the amount that Tammy has been forced to endure in order to try and give us a child.

Of course, at the moment that the self-pity is rolling in there is inevitably some commercial or episode on a TV show that somehow celebrates children in a way that seems to be written to rub our face in our predicament. My favorite involved a commercial that talked about guys giving up their poker game to spend time with their kid, following it with the tag line "A child changes everything". I'm sure this is a wonderful message for a large segment of the population, but it made me see red at the time.

And the thought about opportunities lost in college/post-college has definitely reared its head on more than one occasion.

FrogMan, I hope that your sister is seeing a subspecialist in the fertility field. There are a ton of additional variables that they are starting to look at in cases like these. Ultimately this appears to be what was happening with Tammy during the first few cycles - except that the body was rejecting the embryo very early in the process instead of later in the cycle.

Anyways, if someone does find themselves in a position where they are facing these kind of challenges sometime in the future I'm putting out a standing offer to be available to talk about the process. That was part of the reason I put this out there, as I know I ran searches on this board a couple of times over the last two years seeing if someone had talked about similar struggles at any point. It can be a pretty lonely struggle at times, no matter how terrific your partner may be. There is a ton of doubt about whether you are doing the right thing from cycle to cycle. Deciding what level of trust to invest in a doctor when you aren't seeing results just sucks. Thinking about whether you would reduce the child count in the event that you had triplets/quads/more, which is increasingly likely with IVF. Talking about this with people who just can't put themselves in your shoes, no matter how hard they try, can be frustrating. I hope this ends up being helpful for someone else in the future. I think that putting some of these thoughts into words has been somewhat therapeutic for me. I know that it was heart-warming to see the well-wishes from a number of people who I have spent time with in this community, as well as from others who I don't know as well. So thank you again.

[FrogMan]

FrogMan, I hope that your sister is seeing a subspecialist in the fertility field. There are a ton of additional variables that they are starting to look at in cases like these. Ultimately this appears to be what was happening with Tammy during the first few cycles - except that the body was rejecting the embryo very early in the process instead of later in the cycle.
Thanks for your concerns. I know she is seeing someone, although I'm sort of unsure where they're at. What I gathered was that her husband was thought to have what they call a 47th chromosome and that could be what was causing the miscarriage although she received some good news, yesterday in fact, that it wasn't the case. Doctor told her to keep trying and that it could very well stick at some point. A tiny ray of hope, to which they are holding for the moment. She's 32, so not necessarily old by any means.

I'm not very well versed in their whole situation since talking about it with my sister makes me, and her, sad and I get the feeling she doesn't want to tell me all their secrets, which is fine by me. Sometimes I get the feeling she's too much of an open book with my mom and it very often leads to more heartbreaking whenever something happens. I'll never forget the day she showed up at our doorstep to ask us if we'd be the godparents of their future baby, smiling from ear to ear. She was, I don't know, 6 weeks pregnant at the time and lost it two weeks later :(

Anyway, best of luck in anything you do with your life hoopsguy. You bring valid points regarding parenthood (grandparents/being a parent vs not being one) and having to mourn the current situation. Take it easy, take care of your lady and whenever you need to vent/rant/talk, we'll be here for you. Meanwhile, I'll keep you in my thoughts.

FM

[randal7]

...we'll take a little bit of time to cool off and probably start exploring adoption. Get a feel for the costs....
On the costs...

Overseas will likely run upwards of $20k total. Domestic through an agency or privately varies, up to $15k or more, or much less. Our adoption was through Baptist Children's Home (which has an office in the Chicago area somewhere) and cost about $3500 (not counting associated expenses which will vary, i.e. hotel stays, etc.). (A note about BCH: it is a faith-based nonprofit, and will have some conditions for your acceptance into the process).

But also: all expenses associated with an adoption are tax-deferred. At least I think this is the term. If you pay taxes, the adoption expenses come directly off your tax payment (or add to your refund). This has a limit of around $11k total over 3 years (not sure of the exact figures off the top of my head). Concievably, an adoption could be free over the long-term, or even bring you back extra cash if you adopt a special needs child. This was a pleasant surprise around tax time.

[Desnudo]

I went looking for an ivf thread as my wife and I are staring down this barrel again. Waiting to hear back on iui results which are mostly likely negative (has anyone ever had this work? Who are the 20%.). My wife and I are both fine, so fall into the "unexplained" bucket.

Our two year old son was the result of ivf. We got lucky and it happened the first round. Plus my insurance covered a good chunk of it at the time. This time around we are several years older and my insurance doesn't cover it. So looking at a 25k hit minimum for one of those multi round packages + meds.

The amount of stress this places on a marriage is unfathomable - financial, emotional, medical. I look back and wouldn't trade my son for the world, but looking ahead to the next however many months; I know it will just be an absolute nightmare.

Anyone else going through this type of thing lately? Trying to find an outlet.

[hoopsguy]

Desnudo, very sorry hearing that you are having to deal with this. It has been many years since my wife and I had to think about the whole fertility deal ... more or less morbid humor once in a blue moon at this point when it does come up.

I certainly am not going to be an expert on the insurance coverage that you'll have, but if I had one takeaway from our experience it would be to get the most comprehensive testing done that you can initially. We had the opportunity to go through four rounds of IVF, but it was only after three had failed that we were referred to a sub-specialist who did the additional tests that highlighted why we basically had no shot in our first three tries. I understand why they don't necessarily break out every single test when you first come in, but we certainly would have liked to have had more than one IVF try with a non-zero chance of success.

We've now got a pretty amazing daughter through adoption. As you are starting to look at your options to extend the family, and the medical stuff becomes more and more expensive/daunting, this might be something to consider as an alternative. I know that wasn't something I was eager to consider while going down the IVF track, but if you are trying to assess stress management across financial/emotion/medical then maybe it is worth at least having somewhere on the radar.

Happy to discuss further by PMs if that is of interest. Best of luck to you and your family with this.