Brady - Manning

[Kodos]

Paul Tagliabue has gone insane and decreed that the NFL is getting reshuffled. You're building a team from scratch, and you want to draft a QB in the first slot. Manning and Brady are both available.

[panerd]

Manning. It's not Manning's fault his defense has sucked until this year.

[rkmsuf]

Brady

[vex]

Akili Smith.

[Raiders Army]

Where's the trout option?

[st.cronin]

I really don't get why ANYBODY would pick Manning over Brady.

[Kodos]

Trout can't throw footballs.

[st.cronin]

I really don't get why ANYBODY would pick Manning over Brady.

dola

That's not a crack on Manning, exactly. I think he's a very good QB.

[Raiders Army]

I really don't get why ANYBODY would pick Manning over Brady.
I know why, but I don't agree with it.

[rkmsuf]

I know why, but I don't agree with it.

bitter.raider.fan

[vtbub]

same arguement 20 years ago, Montana or Marino.

[Raiders Army]

bitter.raider.fan
not so funny today...

[rkmsuf]

same arguement 20 years ago, Montana or Marino.

Montana

Marino sucks.

[Raiders Army]

Also, who's your coach? If my coach were Belichick, I'd pick Brady for sure. A lot of it is the system as well.

[cthomer5000]

I really don't get why ANYBODY would pick Manning over Brady.
How about because he's a better quarterback?

[st.cronin]

Also, who's your coach? If my coach were Belichick, I'd pick Brady for sure. A lot of it is the system as well.

I think that's true but the other way: The Patriot's system has DISGUISED how good Brady really is.

Really, they're both very good QBs. I think Brady is a little bit better.

[wade moore]

How about because he's a better quarterback?

DING DING DING ... we have a winner!

[digamma]

There was an interesting discussion on Cowherd this morning about who the fourth best QB in the league is--taking the given that Manning, Brady and McNabb are the top three and there is a drop off between those three and anyone else.

That might just be another poll question.

[rkmsuf]

How about because he puts up better stats?


fixed it for you

[Kodos]

same arguement 20 years ago, Montana or Marino.

I was actually thinking of posting a parallel poll.

I take Marino and Manning. I'm just a sucker for classic all-out passers.

[rkmsuf]

There was an interesting discussion on Cowherd this morning about who the fourth best QB in the league is--taking the given that Manning, Brady and McNabb are the top three and there is a drop off between those three and anyone else.

That might just be another poll question.


Culpepper would probably be the consensus but if it continues this way then I guess it's Carson Palmer.

[cthomer5000]

Mentally, if I imagine the QBs switching places 4 years ago, I have little doubt that Manning is more successful with New England than Brady is with Indy.

[rkmsuf]

Mentally, if I imagine the QBs switching places 4 years ago, I have little doubt that Manning is more successful with New England than Brady is with Indy.


so like Manning wins 4 superbowls?

[Kodos]

Mentally, if I imagine the QBs switching places 4 years ago, I have little doubt that Manning is more successful with New England than Brady is with Indy.

Yep. Brady to some degree is a product of Belicheck and a very solid team with depth. Manning has carried the team to whatever success they have enjoyed with little to no help from his defense before this season.

[cthomer5000]

so like Manning wins 4 superbowls?
3 or more, yes. If everything else is identical. Does Brady even make the playoffs some of those years in INDy? I have my doubts.

[rkmsuf]

3 or more, yes. If everything else is identical. Does Brady even make the playoffs some of those years in INDy? I have my doubts.

Considering the leadership and heroics required of Brady that is a bold assumption.

You feel like Manning leads the Pats down the field last week in Pit? You can but it's not a slam dunk to me.

[Raiders Army]

Throwing the ball: Manning edges Brady
Running the ball: Brady edges Manning
Football smarts: draw
Intangibles: Brady edges Manning

I'd go with Brady. Intangibles win it.

[Raiders Army]

Dola, also the proof is in the rings.

[Kodos]

Dola, also the proof is in the rings.

I would argue that it's not. Trent Dilfer has a ring, but he's not a great quarterback. It's a team sport.

[rkmsuf]

Throwing the ball: Manning edges Brady
Running the ball: Brady edges Manning
Football smarts: draw
Intangibles: Brady edges Manning

I'd go with Brady. Intangibles win it.

IMO, Brady is a much better leader.

[rkmsuf]

I would argue that it's not. Trent Dilfer has a ring, but he's not a great quarterback. It's a team sport.

anyone still drawing comparisons between Dilfer and Brady is delusional.

Dilfer's ring was the ultimate fluke. 3 rings is called a dynasty.

[Draft Dodger]

I take Brady, because he makes less annoying commercials.

[Raiders Army]

I would argue that it's not. Trent Dilfer has a ring, but he's not a great quarterback. It's a team sport.
Rings

[Kodos]

anyone still drawing comparisons between Dilfer and Brady is delusional.

Dilfer's ring was the ultimate fluke. 3 rings is called a dynasty.

I'm not trying to detract from Brady. He is a very good QB. My point is that a bunch of rings doesn't necessarily result just from Brady's efforts. In fact, the Patriot's success seems to be more the result of a true team effort than any other NFL team I can think of.

[rkmsuf]

I'm not trying to detract from Brady. He is a very good QB. My point is that a bunch of rings doesn't necessarily result just from Brady's efforts. In fact, the Patriot's success seems to be more the result of a true team effort than any other NFL team I can think of.

I'd submit he's a big, big part of that.

[st.cronin]

I'm reluctant to make the 'clutch' argument since in the NFL pretty much every game is a big game - but there's no denying Manning has a pretty long history of spotty performances in big games, going back to college.

[gstelmack]

Manning. It's not Manning's fault his defense has sucked until this year.
And now that he's got a defense, he can't seem to move the ball at all http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Raiders Army]

I'm reluctant to make the 'clutch' argument since in the NFL pretty much every game is a big game - but there's no denying Manning has a pretty long history of spotty performances in big games, going back to college.
Tee Martin?!? Tee Martin?!? Tee Martin won the National Championship the year after Manning left???

[Raiders Army]

And now that he's got a defense, he can't seem to move the ball at all http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
To be fair, that's probably more Tony Dungy than Manning...but hell, what do I know? I sit on a couch every Sunday.

[rexallllsc]

There was an interesting discussion on Cowherd this morning about who the fourth best QB in the league is--taking the given that Manning, Brady and McNabb are the top three and there is a drop off between those three and anyone else.

That might just be another poll question.

Donovan McNabb is the third best QB?!

[Desnudo]

IMO, Brady is a much better leader.

Leadership is why Brady will always be #1 in my book. I just haven't seen Manning getting his team to take it to another level in tough situations.

[Raiders Army]

Leadership is why Brady will always be #1 in my book. I just haven't seen Manning getting his team to take it to another level in tough situations.
IMHO, there's no passion when he plays. He's like a machine. Watching the Thursday Night game with the Pats/Raiders, in the pre-game Brady is slapping guys and firing them up. I just don't see Manning doing that.

[jeff061]

I find the idea that Manning would win 3 or 4 titles in New England to be totally laughable. Was it his defense's fault the last two times he lost to NE in the playoffs or was it the 3 int's and 6 points?

Not to mention Brady's RB and WRs couldn't touch what Manning had, til maybe last year, even then they are still behind..

[rkmsuf]

IMHO, there's no passion when he plays. He's like a machine. Watching the Thursday Night game with the Pats/Raiders, in the pre-game Brady is slapping guys and firing them up. I just don't see Manning doing that.


Maybe it's the mix of guys too for the Colts. By all accounts they are an "everyone in separate cabs" offense. At least the skill guys. I remember one of the Colts making that exact quote either last year or the year before. Harrison has always been kind of a loner too.

I just don't see Manning, as talented as he is, as the glue that Brady seems to be. Maybe that's unfair but that's the vibe I get out of Indy.

[flere-imsaho]

Manning has carried the team to whatever success they have enjoyed with little to no help from his defense before this season.

Crucially, though, Manning & his offense have been repeatedly shut down by New England in big games. The last two years, especially, it was Manning's inability to execute in a big game vs. New England that led to the loss.

You can't really say the same for Brady. When the big game is on the line, he wins the game (or puts the team in Vinatieri's field goal range).

[jeff061]

Exhibit A: Manning against the Patriots in the playoffs last year
Exhibit B: Brady against the Steelers in the playoffs last year

[wade moore]

Maybe it's the mix of guys too for the Colts. By all accounts they are an "everyone in separate cabs" offense. At least the skill guys. I remember one of the Colts making that exact quote either last year or the year before. Harrison has always been kind of a loner too.

I just don't see Manning, as talented as he is, as the glue that Brady seems to be. Maybe that's unfair but that's the vibe I get out of Indy.
If you can point to how Manning's OVERALL performance has been the detriment to that team, please do...

Yes, he has struggled against the Pats.. My opinion? Belicheck and crew have found some weaknesses that no one else has... does that mean Manning is not as good as Brady? imo No. If Brady played AGAINST the Pats, he would struggle desperately also. To say Manning can't lead when he led his team to outstanding feats in his career (particularly last year) that's just insane... we say he can't "win the big games" even though he blows out teams in the playoffs except the Pats...

This is not about Manning can't perform, or Manning lacks leadership, or Manning can't get up for the big games...

The Pats own him.. pure and simple... I'm a huge Manning fan and I can admit that... however, like I said, put Brady up against the Pats and lets see how he does...

[Huckleberry]

Cowboys fan here. Anyone saying that Troy Aikman was a better quarterback than Dan Marino is a moron.

Same thing applies here.

[rkmsuf]

Exhibit A: Manning against the Patriots in the playoffs last year
Exhibit B: Brady against the Steelers in the playoffs last year

Exhibit C: His brother is dating shorty.

http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/1821/eli23og.jpg

[jeff061]

Cowboys fan here. Anyone saying that Troy Aikman was a better quarterback than Dan Marino is a moron.

Same thing applies here.

Not really, Dallas was a pre-cap freakish monster running pretty much an all-star team and one of the best o-line/RB combos ever.

[Crapshoot]

Manning, by far. BRady is the Derek Jeter of football.

[VPI97]

Brady is the Derek Jeter of football.Exactly.

[flere-imsaho]

IMHO, there's no passion when he plays. He's like a machine. Watching the Thursday Night game with the Pats/Raiders, in the pre-game Brady is slapping guys and firing them up. I just don't see Manning doing that.

Here's my take:

Manning: He has a method to win. If that method is discombobulated, he can't execute and doesn't win.

Brady: Finds a way to win. If you stop him one way, he'll figure out another way.

2004/05 AFC Conference Semifinals

End of 3rd Quarter, New England 13, Indianapolis 3

1-10-IND25 (1:29) E.James left guard to IND 28 for 3 yards (V.Wilfork, T.Bruschi).
2-7-IND28 (:55) P.Manning pass to R.Wayne pushed ob at IND 41 for 13 yards (R.Gay).
1-10-IND41 (:20) E.James right end pushed ob at IND 40 for -1 yards (R.Harrison).
2-11-IND40 (15:00) P.Manning pass incomplete to E.James.
3-11-IND40 (14:55) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to B.Stokley.
4-11-IND40 (14:47) H.Smith punts 54 yards to NE 6, Center-J.Snow, downed by IND-G.Sapp.

Late 4th Quarter, New England 20, Indianapolis 3

1-10-IND5 (2:59) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to R.Wayne.
PENALTY on NE-H.Poteat, Defensive Holding, 5 yards, enforced at IND 5 - No Play.
1-10-IND10 (2:53) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass to B.Stokley to IND 23 for 13 yards (R.Harrison, D.Reid).
1-10-IND23 (2:31) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to E.James (W.McGinest).
2-10-IND23 (2:26) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning right end to IND 30 for 7 yards (T.Bruschi).
3-3-IND30 (2:02) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass to E.James to IND 36 for 6 yards (A.Samuel).
1-10-IND36 (1:55) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass to E.James to IND 46 for 10 yards (R.Harrison).
1-10-IND46 (1:26) (No Huddle) P.Manning pass to B.Stokley to NE 48 for 6 yards (T.Brown).
2-4-NE48 (1:06) (No Huddle) P.Manning pass to M.Harrison to NE 45 for 3 yards (A.Samuel).
3-1-NE45 (:52) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass to M.Harrison ran ob at NE 36 for 9 yards.
1-10-NE36 (:47) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to M.Harrison.
2-10-NE36 (:38) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to D.Clark.
3-10-NE36 (:33) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass to D.Clark to NE 20 for 16 yards (D.Reid, R.Harrison).
1-10-NE20 (:12) (No Huddle, Shotgun) P.Manning pass intended for M.Harrison INTERCEPTED by R.Harrison at NE -3. R.Harrison ran ob at NE 6 for 9 yards.

Manning: 8/15, 0 points.

2005 Week 3, New England Patriots @ Pittsburgh Steelers

New England's 4th Quarter Drives

1-10-NE14 (14:19) T.Brady pass to D.Givens pushed ob at NE 28 for 14 yards (D.Townsend).
1-10-NE28 (13:55) T.Brady pass to D.Branch to NE 36 for 8 yards (I.Taylor).
2-2-NE36 (13:12) T.Brady pass to T.Brown to PIT 45 for 19 yards (I.Taylor, C.Hope).
1-10-PIT45 (12:31) T.Brady pass to T.Brown to PIT 40 for 5 yards (R.Colclough).
2-5-PIT40 (11:57) C.Dillon up the middle to PIT 37 for 3 yards (J.Farrior, C.Haggans).
3-2-PIT37 (11:14) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass to D.Givens to PIT 7 for 30 yards (C.Hope).
1-7-PIT7 (10:46) C.Dillon right end for 7 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
A.Vinatieri extra point is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-J.Miller.

New England Patriots at 07:27
1-10-NE24 (7:27) T.Brady pass to D.Givens to NE 36 for 12 yards (C.Hope, L.Foote).
1-10-NE36 (6:44) T.Brady pass to C.Dillon to PIT 45 for 19 yards (D.Townsend).
1-10-PIT45 (6:01) T.Brady pass to D.Givens to PIT 25 for 20 yards (C.Hope, J.Farrior).
1-10-PIT25 (5:19) P.Pass up the middle to PIT 20 for 5 yards (J.Farrior).
2-5-PIT20 (4:44) C.Dillon up the middle to PIT 20 for no gain (C.Haggans, J.Farrior).
3-5-PIT20 (4:07) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass to K.Faulk to PIT 17 for 3 yards (I.Taylor).
4-2-PIT17 (3:23) A.Vinatieri 35 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-J.Miller.

New England Patriots at 01:14
1-10-NE38 (1:14) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass to K.Faulk pushed ob at PIT 45 for 17 yards (J.Farrior).
1-10-PIT45 (1:06) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass to P.Pass ran ob at PIT 31 for 14 yards. Penalty on PIT-D.Townsend, Illegal Contact, declined.
1-10-PIT31 (:57) C.Dillon up the middle to PIT 31 for no gain (C.Haggans, C.Hampton).
2-10-PIT31 (:50) T.Brady pass to D.Givens to PIT 25 for 6 yards (I.Taylor).
3-4-PIT25 (:05) A.Vinatieri 43 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-J.Miller.

Brady: 12/12, 13 points

[Daimyo]

I'd love to see how Brady would have faired the last four seasons against New England in the playoffs.

I doubt Manning on New England could have done much better than Brady (although I'd guess they'd have won 2 or 3 SB anyway). However, put Brady on the Colts of the last four seasons and they don't even make the playoffs in any of the seasons.

[rkmsuf]

I'd love to see how Brady would have faired the last four seasons against New England in the playoffs.

A Brady divided against itself cannot stand.

[Desnudo]

I'd love to see how Brady would have faired the last four seasons against New England in the playoffs.

I doubt Manning on New England could have done much better than Brady (although I'd guess they'd have won 2 or 3 SB anyway). However, put Brady on the Colts of the last four seasons and they don't even make the playoffs in any of the seasons.

So you don't think that Brady could have taken that offense to the playoffs? I think Ryan Leaf could win with Harrison and James.

[Radii]

Huh, so what does it say about me that I pick Manning today, but Montana over Marino? I am confused.

[wade moore]

So you don't think that Brady could have taken that offense to the playoffs? I think Ryan Leaf could win with Harrison and James.
Just ask Jake Plummer....


Assumption: Denver RB + Rod Smith >= Harrison and James

[Desnudo]

Just ask Jake Plummer....


Assumption: Denver RB + Rod Smith >= Harrison and James

I didn't really mean I literally think that Ryan Leaf could take the Colts to the playoffs. Although maybe someone should create a 06 Ryan Leaf in Madden and find out.

The idea that Brady couldn't take that type of talent to the playoffs is crazy though.

[wade moore]

I didn't really mean I literally think that Ryan Leaf could take the Colts to the playoffs. Although maybe someone should create a 06 Ryan Leaf in Madden and find out.

The idea that Brady couldn't take that type of talent to the playoffs is crazy though.
Agreed.

But so is the idea that Manning couldn't win 3 or 4 Super Bowls with the Pats.

[molson]

People forget how little Brady has had around him offensively, especially before Dillon arrived. He won 2 SBs with no running game, and with very lightly-regarded WRs. And while the Defense has come up huge in the playoffs (certainly helped by Brady never making mistakes), it has consistently remained pretty spotty against the run. To say Brady couldn't make the playoffs with the Colts weapons is silly.

[rkmsuf]

Agreed.

But so is the idea that Manning couldn't win 3 or 4 Super Bowls with the Pats.

Where are we getting this 4 crap?

So your contention is that Manning wins 4 straight Super Bowls on NE. Uh, ok.

[jeff061]

But so is the idea that Manning couldn't win 3 or 4 Super Bowls with the Pats.

I guess if you don't know anything about Brady or the Pats.

[wade moore]

Where are we getting this 4 crap?

So your contention is that Manning wins 4 straight Super Bowls on NE. Uh, ok.
My contention is that Manning has as much chance (or better) to win Super Bowls in NE as Brady does.

Would he win 4? Maybe, Maybe not. Would he win 3? All else being exactly equal as it was for Brady... probably...

[jeff061]

I guess it'd be an impossible swap anyways, since NE would have to cut half their team to afford him.

[Desnudo]

I think Willie McGinnest would have given Manning a Code Red after one week on the team, resulting in his father demanding a trade to the Giants.

[st.cronin]

I think Willie McGinnest would have given Manning a Code Red after one week on the team, resulting in his father demanding a trade to the Giants.

Brilliant!, give that man a guiness.

[rkmsuf]

My contention is that Manning has as much chance (or better) to win Super Bowls in NE as Brady does.

Would he win 4? Maybe, Maybe not. Would he win 3? All else being exactly equal as it was for Brady... probably...

that's silly. you think he/Weiss/Belichick gel like they have? you think he's as adaptive and capable in bad weather and field conditions? you think he directs game winning superbowl drives?

if you can see all that then you are clearly omnipotent.

I don't know if he could or not but I certainly wouldn't say he has an equal chance nor would I say that Brady would somehow magically propel the Colts either.

[wade moore]

I guess it'd be an impossible swap anyways, since NE would have to cut half their team to afford him.
Manning didn't get a big money contract until i believe last year or this past offseason.. so not true through most of the run...

[rkmsuf]

I think Willie McGinnest would have given Manning a Code Red after one week on the team, resulting in his father demanding a trade to the Giants.

Brilliant!

[VPI97]

All the Brady ass kissing in this thread is hilarious. You guys make him out to be God.

[Desnudo]

Ninny

[rkmsuf]

This post has been reported for Brady ass kissing.

[flere-imsaho]

All the Brady ass kissing in this thread is hilarious. You guys make him out to be God.

Let me know when Ron Mexico has 3 Super Bowl rings.

[st.cronin]

Hey, all I know is if, heaven forbid, someday I needed incredibly dangerous brain surgery, and I could choose between Manning and Brady as my surgeon, I'm going with Brady.

[MizzouRah]

Let me know when Ron Mexico has 3 Super Bowl rings.
My thoughts exactly, the proof is in the pudding or so they say. I like Manning and my first thought was, "I would take Manning"... but Brady finds a way to win, and winning is what he does.

[jeff061]

And do you really want to watch pre-snap Manning over and over again? Annoying does not cover it.

[Kodos]

Hey, all I know is if, heaven forbid, someday I needed incredibly dangerous brain surgery, and I could choose between Manning and Brady as my surgeon, I'm going with Brady.

Unless the operation is being performed in a dome on Astroturf.

[Danny]

I really like Manning, and in the past I would have taken Manning, but Brady has proven too much over the past few years. I take Brady.

[vtbub]

No question that Peyton Manning is a Hall of Fame quarterback, but he's isn't the field general Brady is.

Brady is 9-0 in post-season.

[rkmsuf]

Everybody always detracts from Brady because he's on this juggernaut. Hello, hardly were they favored.

Starting with Indy...last year, opening night people thought it was Manning time...loss. At Indy, ooh it's Manning time...loss. Playoffs, this is Manning time...loss. Pats were never heavily favored if favored at all. I guarantee you early in the Brady era the Colts were favored.

In Pittsburgh, Steelers favored, Pats win. Super Bowl, Pats what, -17 point underdog...they win.

It's not like Brady is on some super team always predicted to crush people on both sides of the ball. It's execution and the intangibles of leadership, guts and teamwork. Manning has had the same opportunities.

[VPI97]

Let me know when Ron Mexico has 3 Super Bowl rings.
Wow. You sure showed me. :rolleyes:

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the best quarterback in the NFL does not necessarily equal the quarterback who wins the championship, no matter how much you want to argue that it does.

[wade moore]

Everybody always detracts from Brady because he's on this juggernaut. Hello, hardly were they favored.

Starting with Indy...last year, opening night people thought it was Manning time...loss. At Indy, ooh it's Manning time...loss. Playoffs, this is Manning time...loss. Pats were never heavily favored if favored at all. I guarantee you early in the Brady era the Colts were favored.

In Pittsburgh, Steelers favored, Pats win. Super Bowl, Pats what, -17 point underdog...they win.

It's not like Brady is on some super team always predicted to crush people on both sides of the ball. It's execution and the intangibles of leadership, guts and teamwork. Manning has had the same opportunities.
Again.

How does Brady do against the Pats if the roles are reversed?

Not so good.

[rkmsuf]

Again.

How does Brady do against the Pats if the roles are reversed?

Not so good.


So he can do good against every other team favored against him but not the Pats because the Pats have the magic dust.

[Raiders Army]

Again.

How does Brady do against the Pats if the roles are reversed?

Not so good.
I don't see how you can make that comment, unless you're seeing their first teams go against each other in practice.

[Eilim]

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the best quarterback in the NFL does not necessarily equal the quarterback who wins the championship, no matter how much you want to argue that it does.


I agree fully. I also think Manning is a great quarterback, BUT..

I'd also say that guady stats put up surrounded by arguably one of the most talented (not including himself in the equation) offenses in the league does not make him the best quarterback in the nfl.

While it may be a bit overdoing it due to my patriots bias, (like I said, I do think Manning is a great Quarterback.) I have *always* thought Manning had a bit of the "Warner/Greatest show on turf effect" going for him.

*runs and hides from all the rabid "Warner in his Prime" fans*

[Desnudo]

Wow. You sure showed me. :rolleyes:

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the best quarterback in the NFL does not necessarily equal the quarterback who wins the championship, no matter how much you want to argue that it does.

To me the best QB in the NFL is the one you want with the ball down a score with 2 minutes on the clock. That QB is not Manning. If you want a QB who will pile up individual records, Manning is your man though.

[sabotai]

Huh, so what does it say about me that I pick Manning today, but Montana over Marino? I am confused. Well, we have the luxery or judging Montana and Marino off of their whole careers. Manning and Brady still have at least half of their career to go. For all we know, Brady could flame out and be average for 7 or 8 years and Manning could go on to win a few Super Bowls in that time.

Let's not forget the coach Manning has had to endure in some of his years. You think anyone is going to win with Jim Mora as their head coach? And what if you put any other coach on the sideline for Brady? Hell, forget switching Brady and Manning's team. Put Jim Mora on the Patriots and Bill Belicheck on the Colts. Who does better now?

BUT, this is all just speculation and I can only go by what I have in front of me. What I have is one QB who has all the talent in the world, who is without a doubt the most skillful quarterback in the league, and a QB who may not be the most skillful, but who not only wins, but wins when the game is on the line.

Got to go with Brady. He just doesn't seem to make any mistake when it's clutch time, and that's Manning's biggest problem.

EDIT: Biggest problem, so far. Like I said, that could easily change now that the Colts have bought into Tony Dungy's mindset. I'm sure it took some work for Dungy to repair all of the damage Jim Mora did.

[Raiders Army]

Personally I dislike both, but I can at least respect Brady for what he's accomplished. Again, the intangibles are what puts him over the top. He's a team player, doesn't beat his chest, and consistently goes out there and plays well. Manning's a team player, doesn't beat his chest, but does not consistently go out there and play well.

[RendeR]

what it comes down to is this:

Put brady and Manning in as the starting QB in San Francisco last season, how many games does each guy win? Does either guy take THAT team to the playoffs?

I put my house on manning winning more games AND making the playoffs, he has that level of talent and leadership.

brady wins maybe 8 games because he Doesn't have the same level of ability and may indeed be an equal leader on teh field. Brady doesn't make the playoffs.


In my mind this places Manning ahead of Brady. I won't say Brady isn't a damn good QB, he is, but he has also had the single BEST overall team around him the last 4 seasons. Manning had the best Offense, but the Colts special teams and defense sucked balls.

Manning is a better Quarterback. brady is a better role player.

[VPI97]

To me the best QB in the NFL is the one you want with the ball down a score with 2 minutes on the clock.According to what I've read, Brady has 13 fourth quarter comebacks in the regular season (in 67 games)...Manning has 23 in 115 games. That's not much of a difference.

Granted, Brady has also done it in the Super Bowl, but I don't see how anyone could say that Manning couldn't do the same thing...he's just on a weaker team and hasn't had the opportunity.

[Raiders Army]

According to what I've read, Brady has 13 fourth quarter comebacks in the regular season (in 67 games)...Manning has 23 in 115 games. That's not much of a difference.

Granted, Brady has also done it in the Super Bowl, but I don't see how anyone could say that Manning couldn't do the same thing...he's just on a weaker team and hasn't had the opportunity.
There's a reason he hasn't had the opportunity...himself.

[Mr. Wednesday]

If you want to count comeback ability, I think you should use a better metric than total games played, because that clearly does not capture the number of opportunities. I have no idea whether that corrected accounting would favor one player or the other, not having done it.

[Desnudo]

According to what I've read, Brady has 13 fourth quarter comebacks in the regular season (in 67 games)...Manning has 23 in 115 games. That's not much of a difference.

Granted, Brady has also done it in the Super Bowl, but I don't see how anyone could say that Manning couldn't do the same thing...he's just on a weaker team and hasn't had the opportunity.

I'm not talking about 15 minute comebacks. I mean an all-or-nothing situation where you score or lose. Manning has not had the weaker team in those situations as the Colts offense is stronger than New England.

[Kodos]

Got to go with Brady. He just doesn't seem to make any mistake when it's clutch time, and that's Manning's biggest problem.



Or, sometimes he clearly fumbles and the other team recovers the ball, but due to a stupid obscure rule on the books, his fumble is ruled an incomplete pass. And then his team goes on to win the Super Bowl.

:D

[Desnudo]

Even though the fumble was caused by an illegal head slap. :cool:

[VPI97]

I'm not talking about 15 minute comebacks. I mean an all-or-nothing situation where you score or lose. Manning has not had the weaker team in those situations as the Colts offense is stronger than New England.
But now you're just going on the assumption that Manning doesn't stack up. I don't think they keep any stats of that kind, so there's no way to tell whether Brady or Manning have the advantage there.

[sabotai]

Or, sometimes he clearly fumbles and the other team recovers the ball, but due to a stupid obscure rule on the books, his fumble is ruled an incomplete pass. And then his team goes on to win the Super Bowl.

:D
Well....stupid or not, if the rulebook clearly stated it was an incomplete pass and not a fumble, then it's not a fumble. A fumble is what the rulebook says it is, not what you want it to be.

And besides, Oakland had their chance the next season. What happened in that game? :D

[Desnudo]

But now you're just going on the assumption that Manning doesn't stack up. I don't think they keep any stats of that kind, so there's no way to tell whether Brady or Manning have the advantage there.

I'm not assuming that Manning doesn't stack up, I know he doesn't. If I had to have one QB to score once to win, it would be Brady.

[wade moore]

So he can do good against every other team favored against him but not the Pats because the Pats have the magic dust.
Yes. It's called Bill Belicheck who has made many a powerful offense look mediocre.

[Kodos]

Eh, I hate Oakland. Just sayin'.

I think most people would agree that without digging in the rule book, that play sure looked like a fumble.

[Raiders Army]

Well....stupid or not, if the rulebook clearly stated it was an incomplete pass and not a fumble, then it's not a fumble. A fumble is what the rulebook says it is, not what you want it to be.

And besides, Oakland had their chance the next season. What happened in that game? :D
...

[VPI97]

I'm not assuming that Manning doesn't stack up, I know he doesn't.I guess I can't argue with that type of logic. :rolleyes:

[jeff061]

Yes. It's called Bill Belicheck who has made many a powerful offense look mediocre.

Really, I thought it was using an argument that was an impossibility and could not be argued as a crutch.

[flere-imsaho]

Let me know when Ron Mexico has 3 Super Bowl rings.
Wow. You sure showed me. :rolleyes:


Lighten up, Francis. :p

[Desnudo]

I guess I can't argue with that type of logic. :rolleyes:

Thanks, it takes a big man to admit when he's wrong.

[wade moore]

Really, I thought it was using an argument that was an impossibility and could not be argued as a crutch.
Kind of like the argument that Peyton can't perform in big games?

I had this out in the last thread on this subject that Quik mentioned earlier... this is such a farce.. everyone defines "big game" around whatever they want to make a big game...

[jeff061]

Are you friggin kidding me Wade?

[Raiders Army]

Kind of like the argument that Peyton can't perform in big games?

I had this out in the last thread on this subject that Quik mentioned earlier... this is such a farce.. everyone defines "big game" around whatever they want to make a big game...
True, but you can definitely categorize every playoff game as a "big game" since a loss means you go home. 9-0 is very hard to beat. What's Manning's playoff record?

[flere-imsaho]

Yes. It's called Bill Belicheck who has made many a powerful offense look mediocre.

The offense still has to score points, though. Neither Pittsburgh of last year or this year, or Carolina of two Super Bowls ago, had slouch defenses.

I'm not going to discount Belichick's influence (or that of Weis), but someone's got to throw the ball in the 4th quarter to win those games.

[RendeR]

The offense still has to score points, though. Neither Pittsburgh of last year or this year, or Carolina of two Super Bowls ago, had slouch defenses.

I'm not going to discount Belichick's influence (or that of Weis), but someone's got to throw the ball in the 4th quarter to win those games.



No-one is saying brady isn't good at doing so, they're simply saying he isn't the BEST one at doing so as most brady-ass-kissers would have everyone believe.

Hell give Carson Palmer the Pats team from last year and he still wins the big game.

[cthomer5000]

True, but you can definitely categorize every playoff game as a "big game" since a loss means you go home. 9-0 is very hard to beat. What's Manning's playoff record?
3-5. But this is a loaded question. If Manning helps a team with horrible defense into the playoffs and then gets beat... that somehow reflects negatively on him? What about the fact that he got to the playoffs in the first place, where a more ordinaly QB wouldn't have?

[jeff061]

No-one is saying brady isn't good at doing so, they're simply saying he isn't the BEST one at doing so as most brady-ass-kissers would have everyone believe.

Hell give Carson Palmer the Pats team from last year and he still wins the big game.

What part of the team are you focusing on when you make a comment like this? Since the offense did great things against a great defense last year. It wasn't just the defense that has them where they are. They were one of the best offensive teams in the league last year.

[jeff061]

3-5. But this is a loaded question. If Manning helps a team with horrible defense into the playoffs and then gets beat... that somehow reflects negatively on him? What about the fact that he got to the playoffs in the first place, where a more ordinaly QB wouldn't have?

Unlike the Pats, the Colts do have players on offense that can carry any QB in the league.

[Raiders Army]

3-5. But this is a loaded question. If Manning helps a team with horrible defense into the playoffs and then gets beat... that somehow reflects negatively on him? What about the fact that he got to the playoffs in the first place, where a more ordinaly QB wouldn't have?
True. I think that's one statistic that's indicative of who the better QB is. There are others, like QB Rating, etc.

Your last statement is irrelevant since we're comparing two "elite" QBs instead of against ordinaly QBs.

[cthomer5000]

Unlike the Pats, the Colts do have players on offense that can carry any QB in the league.
Oh lord, you guys are so ridiculous.

-Manning carried them while E.James was out and for the two years James was a complete shell of himself before being fully recovered from the knee problem
-A WR absolutely no one cared about or actively tried to sign (Brandon Stokely) has a huge year, and instead of Manning getting any credit for that, people point to evidence of the superior offensive talent in Indy

There's no winning, or even opening room for debate with you homers.

[flere-imsaho]

3-5. But this is a loaded question. If Manning helps a team with horrible defense into the playoffs and then gets beat... that somehow reflects negatively on him?

When his offense scores a total of 3 points, I'd say so, yes.

[cthomer5000]

Your last statement is irrelevant since we're comparing two "elite" QBs instead of against ordinaly QBs.
Not true though. Manning has made the playoffs 5 times (vs. Brady's 3), giving him an opportunity to come away with 5 playoff losses.

[Desnudo]

3-5. But this is a loaded question. If Manning helps a team with horrible defense into the playoffs and then gets beat... that somehow reflects negatively on him? What about the fact that he got to the playoffs in the first place, where a more ordinaly QB wouldn't have?

The Colts have actually had a mediocre, not horrible, defense the past few seasons. Their points allowed per game was right in the middle of the pack in 2004 and 2003. In 2002 they actually had a top ten scoring defense.

[jeff061]

Oh lord, you guys are so ridiculous.

-Manning carried them while E.James was out and for the two years James was a complete shell of himself before being fully recovered from the knee problem
-A WR absolutely no one cared about or actively tried to sign (Brandon Stokely) has a huge year, and instead of Manning getting any credit for that, people point to evidence of the superior offensive talent in Indy

There's no winning, or even opening room for debate with you homers.

Please. I'm not downplaying Peyton's skills and he's made both James and Harrison better, as well as every other reciever around him.

But the point remains you take any QB in the league and he's going to have more success on the Colts than on the Patriots.

[VPI97]

But the point remains you take any QB in the league and he's going to have more success on the Colts than on the Patriots.Maybe if success is defined by stats alone, but if you take any quarterback in the league and put them on the Patriots, they will have more wins than on their previous team.

[jeff061]

Because of what, the defense?

Right, cause Manning 0-3 start in the playoffs was because of the defense, see look:


Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
1999 ten L,16-19 | 19 43 227 0 0 | 2 22 1
2000 mia L,17-23 | 17 32 194 1 0 | 1 -2 0
2002 nyj L,0-41 | 14 31 137 0 2 | 1 2 0



Now he can win against the schmucks, but he reverts back to old form against the big boys. I wonder if it's really Belicheck.

[flere-imsaho]

Not true though. Manning has made the playoffs 5 times (vs. Brady's 3), giving him an opportunity to come away with 5 playoff losses.

Manning's been starting since 1998 (7 chances to make playoffs), whereas Brady's been starting since 2001 (4 chances to make playoffs).

Manning carried them while E.James was out and for the two years James was a complete shell of himself before being fully recovered from the knee problem

Patriots' starting RB for Super Bowl's XXXVI & XXXVIII (and related seasons): Antowain Smith.

A WR absolutely no one cared about or actively tried to sign (Brandon Stokely) has a huge year, and instead of Manning getting any credit for that, people point to evidence of the superior offensive talent in Indy

You're not seriously suggesting that people ignored Manning's record-breaking season of a year ago, are you?

[cougarfreak]

I'll take C, Carson Palmer.

[flere-imsaho]

Maybe if success is defined by stats alone, but if you take any quarterback in the league and put them on the Patriots, they will have more wins than on their previous team.

Ben Roethlisberger.

Final 2004 NFL standings:

Pittsburgh: 15-1
New England: 14-2

:)

So what's your point? That the Patriots are so good you can put anyone at QB and win? How far does this logic stretch? Are the Patriots so good that you can put anyone at QB for them and you'll just "win games"? Are the Patriots so good that you can put anyone at QB for them and you'll win the Super Bowl?

Does this extend to all QBs? Can we assume that if Chad Hutchison starts for the Patriots he wins the Super Bowl?

[VPI97]

So what's your point? That the Patriots are so good you can put anyone at QB and win? How far does this logic stretch? Are the Patriots so good that you can put anyone at QB for them and you'll just "win games"? Are the Patriots so good that you can put anyone at QB for them and you'll win the Super Bowl?I don't think you understood what I posted.

I don't think it's any stretch to say that if you take an NFL quarterback and make them the Pats starter, they'll have more wins than they would on their previous team.

[flere-imsaho]

Look, I think this is all pretty simple.

Manning is a great QB. He has been taking apart defenses since he came into the league. As he's had better weapons with which to work, he's come to direct an offense that can overwhelm all but the very best defenses.

However, when he is unable to overwhelm a defense, when a defense is able to shut down his weapons and disrupt his rhythm, he loses games.

Brady is a very different QB. He doesn't blow defenses out of the park. He doesn't orchestrate an offense that completely dominates a defense.

What he does do, however, is make the correct decision at the right time, throw the correct pass at the right time, and finds a way to win at crucial moments.

One point I feel is being missed, too, is that they both work in very different systems. In Indianapolis, Dungy is creating a big-play defense. The goal on defense is to create turnovers at the cost of more often giving up the big play. They can do this because their offensive juggernaught will get those points back. The goal is to overwhelm and demoralize the opposition offense and defense.

In New England it's all about game management. Take what the other team gives you. If they're letting you run, run. If they're giving up the long pass, throw it long. Etc.... New England isn't going to blow a lot of people out, but they're going to be in the mix for a lot of close games.

Can you take Manning to New England and have him work in this system? Can you take Brady to Indianapolis and have him work in that system?

I think each are very correct for the systems they play, perhaps even archetypal QBs for these systems. If that's the case, then, then our argument about Super Bowl rings really comes down to the merits of either system.

[flere-imsaho]

I don't think it's any stretch to say that if you take an NFL quarterback and make them the Pats starter, they'll have more wins than they would on their previous team.

Fair enough, then perhaps you can agree with my post immediately after yours.

There's two questions, then, that we're discussing in this thread:

1. (The actual question): Which QB would you want to build a team around?

In my opinion, Manning probably wins more with a truly crap supporting cast, but Brady is the bigger influence in taking a team to another level. I think that's a tough call there, and really has to be based on a personal philosophy.

2. (The implied question): What is greatness for a QB?

I'd say it has to be wins. I think we define success or failure in sport by winning.

However, I see a lot of people here wanting to temper the "greatness" of Brady by saying that most of the credit should go to the system or to Belichick. If that's the case, then, then maybe we should temper our view of every great player who was surrounded by a great system and/or talent (I'm thinking specifically of Montana & Rice here).

If you want to do that, though (this is the "general" you, not anyone specifically), then you really call into question the greatness of any individual player, I think.

[wade moore]

One thing to take note of here..

Everyone seems to be thinking that mysefl, cthomer, VPI.. and whoever else is supporting Manning here is saying that Brady is a BAD QB... I am not, and I don't think the others are, saying that. We are saying that he is elevated by the superior system around him. And more specifically than that, particularly in recent years (I find it hard to criticize him too much for a loss in his first year in the playoffs as a young QB) Manning has been challenged against one of the best defensive minds (combination of DC and HC) and teams the league has seen in quite some time...

No one mentions how he DESTROYED other teams in the playoffs the last two years... This is my point.. we selectively choose the definition of a 'big game'... jeff said something like "you've got to be kidding me".. well.. I'm most definately not... you guys are defining what you want to mean 'big game' to make Manning look bad.. we'll say "he couldn't beat Florida".. ok.. what about all of the good teams he did beat? Why are the Florida games so special? They weren't SEC championship games (some may have been, but definately not all).. why are these games bigger than games against Georgia or Auburn? The Patriots game is a 'big game', but the games that he won in the playoffs aren't? what about the games down the stretch of the regular season that he won to get into the playoffs?

meh... it's just silly...

[Desnudo]

And more specifically than that, particularly in recent years (I find it hard to criticize him too much for a loss in his first year in the playoffs as a young QB) Manning has been challenged against one of the best defensive minds (combination of DC and HC) and teams the league has seen in quite some time...

Herm Edwards?

[st.cronin]

One thing to take note of here..

Everyone seems to be thinking that mysefl, cthomer, VPI.. and whoever else is supporting Manning here is saying that Brady is a BAD QB... I am not, and I don't think the others are, saying that. We are saying that he is elevated by the superior system around him. And more specifically than that, particularly in recent years (I find it hard to criticize him too much for a loss in his first year in the playoffs as a young QB) Manning has been challenged against one of the best defensive minds (combination of DC and HC) and teams the league has seen in quite some time...

No one mentions how he DESTROYED other teams in the playoffs the last two years... This is my point.. we selectively choose the definition of a 'big game'... jeff said something like "you've got to be kidding me".. well.. I'm most definately not... you guys are defining what you want to mean 'big game' to make Manning look bad.. we'll say "he couldn't beat Florida".. ok.. what about all of the good teams he did beat? Why are the Florida games so special? They weren't SEC championship games (some may have been, but definately not all).. why are these games bigger than games against Georgia or Auburn? The Patriots game is a 'big game', but the games that he won in the playoffs aren't? what about the games down the stretch of the regular season that he won to get into the playoffs?

meh... it's just silly...

It's not silly when you're comparing him to Tom Brady. It would be silly if you were comparing him to Donovan McNabb or Dan Fouts or even John Elway, but against a guy who's pretty much been perfect in big games the last 4 years, it's something to think about.

[jeff061]

It's simple Wade. He played like crap his 1st three playoff games, check the stats I posted. Then he won games against Denver and KC, each of which had no secondary to speak of. Then went to New England where he played like a high schooler. New England being a team that he plays at least okay(not great) during the regular season, but then all of a sudden reverses when the season is on the line?

When he can play in the playoffs against a good team like he does in the regular season then he has gotten over his hump. That's the bottom line. He plays the same team differently in the regular season than he does in the playoffs.

[Antmeister]

I find the idea that Manning would win 3 or 4 titles in New England to be totally laughable. Was it his defense's fault the last two times he lost to NE in the playoffs or was it the 3 int's and 6 points?

Not to mention Brady's RB and WRs couldn't touch what Manning had, til maybe last year, even then they are still behind..


Thank you, after having that record breaking year, he still falls on his face when it comes to a game that counts. And for those that say that it is the product of the system, since when did Bill Bilichek become an offensive genius as well? Brady is a critical person in that team. And when the game matters, he can pull off a last drive going 12 for 12. I never seen Manning pull his team from the ground when he team was getting spanked in the big game. Plus people have to realize that the only true star on his offense is Corey Dillion. He won without having a feature running back of this calibur and this is unlike Manning who had some great offensive weapons for quite some time.

[Donnie Baker]

I was actually thinking of posting a parallel poll.

I take Marino and Manning. I'm just a sucker for classic all-out passers.


Then I'll take Montana and Brady. I'm just a sucker for championships.

[Neon_Chaos]

Here's my take:

Manning: He has a method to win. If that method is discombobulated, he can't execute and doesn't win.

Brady: Finds a way to win. If you stop him one way, he'll figure out another way.


I agree. And I'd take the guy who finds ways to win over the other guy. Brady has the rings, and righteously whooped the Colts last season.

And I'd take Marino over Montana.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Well, I have to weigh in on this one.

People who rely on highlights, stat lines in the paper, and occasional games every now and then will never understand the true greatness of Brady. Get Sunday Ticket and watch the Pats. I did this for the year they beat Carolina in the SB. The guy singlehandedly, and I mean singlehandedly, won games. The offense would sputter a bit in the second and third quarter, and sure enough, bam it's over in the 4th when the game is on the line. Game in game out.

Let's be honest, the guy has had no supporting cast on offense any better than the average teams out there (it's getting better, but for the first 2 superbowls??). The receivers, RB, and that O-line! (I mean I love Antowain Smith, Troy Brown, David Patten, as well as Joe Andruzzi, Mike Compton, and Greg Robinson-Randall as much as the next guy but . . . .) On the other hand, Manning has had the playmakers, at least on offense.

The key here is to look how Indy lost the games when it was MANNING V. BRADY. Head to head, Manning got beat. Not because his defense let him down, but his team couldn't score, period.

Now, how would it work with Manning on the Pats? He'd win games, for sure, but we'll never really know. We have to go with what we have in front of us. And that is, both are great QBs, but Manning has only shown (to this point) that he can perform against good/average/weak defenses. Against the best defenses when it matters, he just has not gotten it done. On the other hand, Brady gets it done against all defenses, including the cream of the crop (Philly,Pitt). Based on that evidence, you have got to go with Brady.

P.S. Another big factor in terms of the intangibles is that Brady has done it right from the start of his career while Manning needed some warm up time. To me, this says something -- he's just a natural winner. What does it say when Drew Bledsoe, a guy at the time with incredible physical talent couldn't get it done with the same team?

My favorite stat is Brady's first career start: a 44-13 win over Manning's Colts (admittedly, it was not all Brady in that one, but funny nonetheless).

[Izulde]

Brady's overrated. Is he good? Yeah, I'll concede that he's good, but he's still the most overrated QB in the entire league, bar none.

The thing people forget about Bledsoe is that they kept changing systems on him, so he never got the chance to settle into a rhythm and one offense. That he was able to accomplish what he did in spite of changing just about every year speaks volumes about just how good a QB he was and to some extent still is, in my opinion.

This compares to Brady, who didn't have to deal with all that damn shifting around of offenses all the time.

Hell, not only will I take Manning over Brady, but I'll take Bledsoe with the same number of consecutive years in Belichick's system as Brady over Brady too.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Ah, apparently Belichick preferred the "rookie" Brady over Bledsoe in his prime. I think he would know that one. Hey, don't get me wrong, I love Bledsoe, but he's no Brady. You do know that Brady won the SB in his first year under the system, right?

I am not sure you're right on the offensive system changes. He had Parcells for 4 years as coach and Carrol for 3 years before Belichick arrived. I am not sure I noticed a big shift in the offensive schemes during those years.

[Izulde]

Ah, apparently Belichick preferred the "rookie" Brady over Bledsoe in his prime. I think he would know that one. Hey, don't get me wrong, I love Bledsoe, but he's no Brady. You do know that Brady won the SB in his first year under the system, right?

I am not sure you're right on the offensive system changes. He had Parcells for 4 years as coach and Carrol for 3 years before Belichick arrived. I am not sure I noticed a big shift in the offensive schemes during those years.

They had a segment on it during the draft a couple years back when he got traded to Buffalo.

[BishopMVP]

They had a segment on it during the draft a couple years back when he got traded to Buffalo.Theoretically then wouldn't he have done better once he left New England and could settle into one system for an extended time?

Michael Bishop was better than either.

[tucker342]

Until Manning beats Brady in a playoff game, it is no contest, you have to go with Brady.

[RendeR]

In Bledsoe's defense he had the same offensive system for more than one year exactly once, and that was when he came into the league and until parcells left. After that he's never had the same coordinator or playcalling team intact for more than a single season.

Another thing to note is that bledsoe in his career has never had a quality offensive line, something Brady has had from the get go. If Bledsoe doesn't suffer the season long injury vs the Jets we'd never even know brady's name.

Please people, pull your toungues out of Tom brady's ass long enough to at least get the facts surrounding his success. He's never had a poor offensive line, he's never had a lower than top 10 defense, and even when the running game was weak it wasn't bottom 3rd of the league it was still a viable run game. Brady has NEVER, let me repeat this, NEVER EVER had to be the sole supporting player on this team. His real talent is not making mistakes which turn games and in that role he is excellent.

Manning and Bledsoe both have, at different points in their careers, been the ONLY thing going for their respective teams.

I concede brady is a good QB, but get a little fucking perspective people. good lord.

[RendeR]

Ah, apparently Belichick preferred the "rookie" Brady over Bledsoe in his prime. I think he would know that one. Hey, don't get me wrong, I love Bledsoe, but he's no Brady. You do know that Brady won the SB in his first year under the system, right?

I am not sure you're right on the offensive system changes. He had Parcells for 4 years as coach and Carrol for 3 years before Belichick arrived. I am not sure I noticed a big shift in the offensive schemes during those years.


This is completely incorrect. brady was a 2nd year player when he took over for Bledsoe after the injury. he had a full season to learn the system and watch the offense play before he took the reigns in game 2 of 2001.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741

Brady was NOT a rookie, please stop making this statement, many people do and it is completely false.And to repeat myself endlesssly, If Bledsoe doesn't go down for the season we never hear Brady's name.

[rkmsuf]

In Bledsoe's defense he had the same offensive system for more than one year exactly once, and that was when he came into the league and until parcells left. After that he's never had the same coordinator or playcalling team intact for more than a single season.

Another thing to note is that bledsoe in his career has never had a quality offensive line, something Brady has had from the get go. If Bledsoe doesn't suffer the season long injury vs the Jets we'd never even know brady's name.

Please people, pull your toungues out of Tom brady's ass long enough to at least get the facts surrounding his success. He's never had a poor offensive line, he's never had a lower than top 10 defense, and even when the running game was weak it wasn't bottom 3rd of the league it was still a viable run game. Brady has NEVER, let me repeat this, NEVER EVER had to be the sole supporting player on this team. His real talent is not making mistakes which turn games and in that role he is excellent.

Manning and Bledsoe both have, at different points in their careers, been the ONLY thing going for their respective teams.

I concede brady is a good QB, but get a little fucking perspective people. good lord.

You really need to watch Brady more instead of just reading the box scores and listening to Tom Jackson verbally play with himself on television.

[RendeR]

You really need to watch Brady more instead of just reading the box scores and listening to Tom Jackson verbally play with himself on television.


Lets try not talking out your ass here. I lived in Boston for all 4 years and 3 super bowls. I had no CHOICE but to watch brady play. I know for a fact he's not the best QB around. I've watched every bloody game because they were the only game showing.


Let me clarify my belief by stating my historical standards. I've lived through and watched the careers of everyone from bert jones in the 70's through Ken Anderson, Dan Fouts and the Marino 80's, the Montana and young niners, Farve and the best of the rest that's ever played the game. Brady is NOT that level of QB. His play on the field doesn't rank with the likes of those.

[st.cronin]

In Bledsoe's defense he had the same offensive system for more than one year exactly once, and that was when he came into the league and until parcells left. After that he's never had the same coordinator or playcalling team intact for more than a single season.

Another thing to note is that bledsoe in his career has never had a quality offensive line, something Brady has had from the get go. If Bledsoe doesn't suffer the season long injury vs the Jets we'd never even know brady's name.

Please people, pull your toungues out of Tom brady's ass long enough to at least get the facts surrounding his success. He's never had a poor offensive line, he's never had a lower than top 10 defense, and even when the running game was weak it wasn't bottom 3rd of the league it was still a viable run game. Brady has NEVER, let me repeat this, NEVER EVER had to be the sole supporting player on this team. His real talent is not making mistakes which turn games and in that role he is excellent.

Manning and Bledsoe both have, at different points in their careers, been the ONLY thing going for their respective teams.

I concede brady is a good QB, but get a little fucking perspective people. good lord.

You are wrong about two things.

In 2003 the Patriots went 14-2 and won the Super Bowl. They were 27th (out of 32) in rushing yardage and 30th (out of 32) in yards per rush.

In 2001 the Patriots went 11-5 and won the Super Bowl. They were 19th (out of 32) in rushing yardage and 21st (out of 32) in yards per rush.

That is pretty much the definition of BOTTOM third.

Also, even before Bledsoe got hurt, Belichick was planning to replace him with Brady - the injury just moved up the timetable. Brady had become the Pats QB of the future in that year's training camp.

[RendeR]

You are wrong about two things.

In 2003 the Patriots went 14-2 and won the Super Bowl. They were 27th (out of 32) in rushing yardage and 30th (out of 32) in yards per rush.

In 2001 the Patriots went 11-5 and won the Super Bowl. They were 19th (out of 32) in rushing yardage and 21st (out of 32) in yards per rush.

That is pretty much the definition of BOTTOM third.

Also, even before Bledsoe got hurt, Belichick was planning to replace him with Brady - the injury just moved up the timetable. Brady had become the Pats QB of the future in that year's training camp.

Bottom 3rd of 32 == 21st? ok, I'll concede that, they still had a VIABLE run game. please, stop picking nits here. The argument that it was all Brady is complete and utter horse shit.

[st.cronin]

Bottom 3rd of 32 == 21st? ok, I'll concede that, they still had a VIABLE run game. please, stop picking nits here. The argument that it was all Brady is complete and utter horse shit.

Now I refuse to believe that you watched any Patriots games those years. Their running game was the most NOT viable running game I've ever seen on a decent team. The only reason they amassed as many yards on the ground as they did was because of Belichick's 'play it safe' style of play; this meant Brady had to make a ton of 3rd down plays to keep drives moving.

[VPI97]

RendeR - You shouldn't even bother. Everyone knows that Brady is the best player is the history of sporting events and if someone argues anything different it only shows how clueless they are about football.

[jeff061]

Another thing to note is that bledsoe in his career has never had a quality offensive line, something Brady has had from the get go. If Bledsoe doesn't suffer the season long injury vs the Jets we'd never even know brady's name.

This alone should have everyone ignoring Render. As well as probably several other ones.

And VPI I wouldn't associate yourself with his arguments. There is having an opinion and being plain wrong about everything. Render is just plain wrong.

[RendeR]

Now I refuse to believe that you watched any Patriots games those years. Their running game was the most NOT viable running game I've ever seen on a decent team. The only reason they amassed as many yards on the ground as they did was because of Belichick's 'play it safe' style of play; this meant Brady had to make a ton of 3rd down plays to keep drives moving.


Any running game not in that bottom thrid of the league is a viable one, you want to keep nit-picking about that 21st spot fine, for a season it was in the less than viable category. Come on man, stop being a fanboy for 5 seconds and look at the facts.

I did watch those games, I had no choice, its all that they will play there. I'm not trying to say he isn't a good QB, but all this utter bullshit about him being "The MAN" and the guy you can build a team around is complete idiocy. Brady is not that team's lynchpin, he is a cog in the machine, and very little more.

[rkmsuf]

RendeR - You shouldn't even bother. Everyone knows that Brady is the best player is the history of sporting events and if someone argues anything different it only shows how clueless they are about football.

Finally, the voice of reason.

[RendeR]

This alone should have everyone ignoring Render. As well as probably several other ones.

And VPI I wouldn't relate yourself to his arguments. There is having an opinion and being plain wrong about everything. Render is just plain wrong.



Yes, ignore the facts, prove your fanboy ignorance =)

[st.cronin]

This alone should have everyone ignoring Render. As well as probably several other ones.

Exactly. Render says he was following the Patriots, but every Pats fan knew Brady was getting a shot eventually - Brady had badly outplayed Bledsoe in camp that year and was loved by Belichick.

[jeff061]

No actually, I've bit my tounge a dozen times, I just don't want to argue with you.

[jeff061]

Exactly. Render says he was following the Patriots, but every Pats fan knew Brady was getting a shot eventually - Brady had badly outplayed Bledsoe in camp that year and was loved by Belichick.

And the fact he seems to blame the o-line for Bledsoe getting hurried and hit every play.

[rkmsuf]

Who has thrown 23, 28 and 19 interception in a season. Oh yeah, Manning!

[RendeR]

Of course this is why in his second year Brady was still the BACKUP qb going into the season. yup, you proved me SO wrong. please. Every time you state the fact that your a fan you blind yourself to seeing anything objectively. I can't blame you for that, I'm certainly a bit biased towards palmer for my Bengals, but I'm not going to start shouting that he's the best QB ever until he proves it.

brady has proved he can be a good QB, he hasn't shown greatness in any form.

[rkmsuf]

brady has proved he can be a good QB, he hasn't shown greatness in any form.

wow, just wow.



*leaves thread shaking head

[VPI97]

Of course this is why in his second year Brady was still the BACKUP qb going into the season.That's only because Brady had his training camp interrupted by having to perform miracles in the greater Boston area. He would have been the opening day starter, but he was busy curing kids of blindness.

[flere-imsaho]

That's only because Brady had his training camp interrupted by having to perform miracles in the greater Boston area. He would have been the opening day starter, but he was busy curing kids of blindness.

It's a better use of the offseason than going around giving people herpes, though. :p

[Raiders Army]

Just curious, but is it that some of you are Brady-haters, or just Manning-lovers? As I said before, I dislike both, but I can at least respect what Brady has accomplished.

[RendeR]

Just curious, but is it that some of you are Brady-haters, or just Manning-lovers? As I said before, I dislike both, but I can at least respect what Brady has accomplished.


I certainly respect what he's done, but IMO that doesn't make him the greatest ever or even close to it. He's a good quarterback, no argument. but, to play on the comments above, he is NOT the second coming. Unfortunately Patriots fans, like any religious fanatic, will accept belief over fact anyday.

[rkmsuf]

How dare you insult Pats fans. We used to sit on metal benches with numbered stickers on them to watch Marc Wilson. You aren't sitting right on your sticker, prepare to die. We didn't even have pavement in the parking lot.

[RendeR]

How dare you insult Pats fans. We used to sit on metal benches with numbered stickers on them to watch Marc Wilson. You aren't sitting right on your sticker, prepare to die. We didn't even have pavement in the parking lot.


So because prior to Mr. Kraft coming in, your ownership groups were pathetic money monger shit-slimes, that means you have a clue? ;)

No sympathy from this box, sorry dude. =)

[rkmsuf]

So because prior to Mr. Kraft coming in, your ownership groups were pathetic money monger shit-slimes, that means you have a clue? ;)

No sympathy from this box, sorry dude. =)

You'd be sympathetic if you saw me there, sitting on my bench and getting yelled at to "push over!" because my friend insisted on sitting with his legs way too far apart there by covering 30% more real estate than he should.

Or getting smashed up against the chain link fence that surrounded the exit walkway designed to prevent a fatal fall down a 100 ft embankment. Surprisingly the crowd still gets angry after the 10th loss of the year.

[RendeR]

You'd be sympathetic if you saw me there, sitting on my bench and getting yelled at to "push over!" because my friend insisted on sitting with his legs way too far apart there by covering 30% more real estate than he should.

Or getting smashed up against the chain link fence that surrounded the exit walkway designed to prevent a fatal fall down a 100 ft embankment. Surprisingly the crowd still gets angry after the 10th loss of the year.


*chuckles*

[Daimyo]

Until Manning beats Brady in a playoff game, it is no contest, you have to go with Brady.
Which is kind of funny to me since they're never even on the field at the same time, let alone affect each other's play in any way.

[Raiders Army]

I certainly respect what he's done, but IMO that doesn't make him the greatest ever or even close to it. He's a good quarterback, no argument. but, to play on the comments above, he is NOT the second coming. Unfortunately Patriots fans, like any religious fanatic, will accept belief over fact anyday.
So I guess that's neither a Brady-hater or a Manning-lover? I would tend to think that you're one of the two since you're pretty vocal about Brady.

[Desnudo]

Which is kind of funny to me since they're never even on the field at the same time, let alone affect each other's play in any way.

I think the comparison is definitely in Manning's head at this point and affects his play. We'll see in a few weeks.

And my prediction for 2005 Sports Thread with the most flaming goes to the NFL Week 9 thread.

[Desnudo]

So I guess that's neither a Brady-hater or a Manning-lover? I would tend to think that you're one of the two since you're pretty vocal about Brady.

I think he's a Boston sports fan hater more than a Brady hater.

[RendeR]

So I guess that's neither a Brady-hater or a Manning-lover? I would tend to think that you're one of the two since you're pretty vocal about Brady.


I don't hate or love either one, what I do despise is the contonual drumb beating of the "Tom Brady is a God" tour which seems to have no ability to objectively view their so-called messiah.

I'm all for being a fan, but save the "Best ever" bullshit for his retirement party, THEN you might have a case. 5 years into his career you got a good QB on the perfect team for him.

Hell if he got hurt tomorrow and never played again, boston fans would swear up and down that he'd go to the HoF. Odds are he'd never see it happen.

[RendeR]

I think he's a Boston sports fan hater more than a Brady hater.


FAR more. God the fans in that region are just fucking FREAKs. There used to be a joke that said "Every team Boston fans root for loses, If Boston fans rooted for Gravity, we'd all be floating 2 feet off the ground." but you know, the Sox and the pats have stopped that joke.

Sadly, If gravity were to stop working, boston fans would float there and tell you it worked JUST fine, and was in fact the BEST gravity ever to hold their asses to the surface.

[Traylor]

Brady is slightly above average at best. Just like most of the players on that team. Only reason he gets more attention is because he's the quarterback. Don't Pats fans realize that its the system by now?

[jeff061]

Quite the opposite. A lot of Pats fans thought it was the system the 1st and maybe 2nd year. Unlike you, they have smartened up since.

[Izulde]

It *is* the system.

[wade moore]

Tastes Great.

[jeff061]

So what exactly is the system that magically makes QB's play better than others when it matters? You'd think other teams would be copying this miracle system.

[rkmsuf]

What system? Demonstrate this system.

Explain how throwing the 15 yard out is transformed into the equivalent of tossing a ball into a 1,000 foot crevice from 5 feet away.

Must be the magic dust.

[Traylor]

Same system thats gonna make Brady Quinn one of the best quarterbacks in ND history. If I knew how the system worked I would probably be an offensive coordinator in the NFL right now.

[rkmsuf]

Same system thats gonna make Brady Quinn one of the best quarterbacks in ND history. If I knew how the system worked I would probably be an offensive coordinator in the NFL right now.

And how much film is available to NFL coordinators and coaches?

It's the magic dust.

[jeff061]

So the only arguments I can see so far are.
1: Brady would play bad against Belicheck. What a convenient argument this is.
2: It's the offensive system. I don't know, somehow it is.

Even though the system is different this year mind you. They are running a more straight up power run with playaction this year, as opposed to Weis's flood the defense with 5 receivers.

You know why Weis's system worked with him? Because Brady can check 5 guys and hit the 6th guy square in the numbers under 2 seconds, anywhere on the field. All the while with a high completion and low interception rate.

Now, with all the time I've spent rebuffing these silly fairy dust and magic arguments no one has responded to any of the FACTS I have posted about Manning. No fairy dust there.

[rkmsuf]

It's pretty comical that nobody can describe this system as anything other than this mythical holy grail of a blueprint that whoever has is transformed into football uber goodness.

Shoot, the Pats should save money and stick Akili Smith back there, pay him $5 dollars a game.

I mean it's not even conceivable that Brady is a phenomenal decision maker and very accurate passer that can make all the throws. Can't be...it's this system that throws the ball for him.

Oh and the magic dust.

[Traylor]

No one is saying Brady is a bad QB, so relax, he just can't carry a team like Manning does that's all.

[st.cronin]

No one is saying Brady is a bad QB, so relax, he just can't carry a team like Manning does that's all.

That is an extremely silly argument when you consider how many championships Manning has 'carried' his team to over the years.

[rkmsuf]

No one is saying Brady is a bad QB, so relax, he just can't carry a team like Manning does that's all.

So make that point. Don't bring up system bullcrap.

That illustrates your despiration to wash Manning's balls or soil Brady's.


Not to mention that your point is way off base.

Lineup the offenses man for man.


Colts ever consider having some intelligence and creating some long drives to keep the defense off the field. Oh but there's no value to that because I'm f*cking Manning and I have weapons and the ability to score like it's going out of style. F the defesne, they can figure it out.

Morons, let's score in 50 seconds and put the defense back out there. Then when the pressure is really on we have no idea how to sustain drives and be patient.

That's how you carry a team.

[jeff061]

Brady can't put a team on his shoulders and carry them straight out of the playoffs? Ok, sure.

Obvious, I know :). But I think Manning has carried his team to much more dilapidated areas than Brady. In all of Mannings numerous playoff losses they were all HIS fault. NOT his teammates, not his defense, his. Check the stats. He failed to perform against good teams when the pressure was on. He played well against KC and Denver, two teams my little sister could pass against.

I'd take Delhomme over Manning. That should more accuratley describe my take on Brady vrs Manning.

[rkmsuf]

When teams have taken away to easy route to points, Manning has shown the he cannot sustain offense in ugly games. He's great when the defense is outmatched which has happened frequently because he is talented and he has weapons. Punch the bully in the mouth and he's clueless.

I submit however that by what we have seen this season that this may not be the case anymore. I can see the Colts reaching the Superbowl. Ironically the Colts are better off when Manning doesn't produce gaudy stats.

Oh wait, what does that remind me of?

[Traylor]

ok you guys have made me realize Brady is the better QB. Cheers!

[rkmsuf]

Alright, I knew you'd come around.

[Daimyo]

Heh... I guess since Manning had general consensus and stats on his side the burden of proof here was on Brady fans. I don't buy the "Team A is better than Team B so Quarterback A must be better than Quarterback B" argument which is pretty much all Brady has in his favor, but whatever... *shurg*

I'm sure this will be dismissed, but footballoutsiders.com (based on ideas and research from The Hidden Game of Football) is pretty much leadding the way on applying SABR principles to football to determine team power rankings and also individual worth. Their statistics basically look at every play in a game and rate the performance of the team and individual players involved in the play based on how the rest of the league performs in similar situations. You can read more details at their site. This is a site ran by a Patriots fan, so at the very least you can't accuse the stats of any Manning-bias.

They have a stat for quarterbacks called Defense-adjusted Points Above Replacement which basically tells you how many points you'd lose by replacing the quarterback with a replacement level quarterback. Here is how Manning and Brady rate since 2000 (the first year the stat is available):

2004
Manning 170.1 (1st)
Brady 113.4 (3rd)

2003
Manning 126.8 (1st)
Brady 43.2 (10th)

2002
Manning 79.5 (4th)
Brady 53.9 (13th)

2001
Manning 55.4 (6th)
Brady 24.8 (15th)

2000
Manning 125.0 (1st)
Brady DNP

I think those stats pretty much reflect what most people would expect... Up until last year Brady was a good quarterback on a great team, but that last year he took the step up to being an great quarterback on his own. Manning, on the other hand has had three amazing years (I believe he has the 1st, 3rd, and 4th best seasons of the last 5 years) and was better than Brady in every season. Of course you could make the argument that Brady has started three fewer years and if you account for that is about even with Manning. But based on past performance, Manning has pretty easily been the best QB in the NFL over the last 5 years.

[st.cronin]

You're kidding me - Manning has better stats than Brady? I want to change my vote.

[Daimyo]

*shurg*

Seems people were arguing that brady can make perfect throws when the game is on the line and/or that Manning had a better supporting cast and that those things were not counted in traditional stats that made Brady better than Manning. The point is that those sorts of things are counted in the footballoutsiders.com stats.

Really when it comes down to it the only thing you can judge these guys on is what they do in games and to do that you can use stats or team success. Traditional stats are flawed because they don't account for situations, opponents, etc. Team success is flawed because you ignore the other 21 guys + coaches, etc. Those stats attempt to fix the flaws in traditional stats. If you've already made up your mind that you can't use stats at all to rank players than its pretty clear there is no way to determine who's best other than "pick the guy you like". Whatever floats your boat...

[Mr. Wednesday]

Same system thats gonna make Brady Quinn one of the best quarterbacks in ND history. If I knew how the system worked I would probably be an offensive coordinator in the NFL right now.'Cuz Brady Quinn was just a stiff last year. :rolleyes:

[jeff061]

If the only goal I had for my team was to reach the playoffs, Manning would be the guy, hands down. He could do this more reliably than any QB in the league.

However just like he carries his team to the playoffs, he'll carry them right out. Period. He plays BADLY in the playoffs(the college teams of KC and Denver withstanding). He throws ints and he doesn't put points on the board. You can say all you want about the Patriots defense, when the season is on the line Brady keeps the ball in his offenses hands longer and puts more points on the board than Manning, without an Edgerrin James and Marvin Harrison. Brady is not the only QB I'd take over Manning.

Someone argue with that.

[kurtism]

Let me see if I understand the system:

Start with "my" team. Devalue the supporting cast and set aside any positive effect the coaching staff may have. Ok, check.

Next, go to the other team. Elevate the supporting cast to Hall of Fame levels. Disregard playoff success where it contradicts my argument, and emphasize only those points which support my argument. Ok, check.

Clearly, since football is not a team sport for Brady, but Peyton is constantly elevated by his supporting cast, Brady is the better player. By the (admittedly flawless) arguments of the jeff061/rkmsuf/stcronin intelligentsia, the better player is revealed with simplicity: Tom Brady, thy name is Jesus reborn!

[Desnudo]

What system? Demonstrate this system.

You place tiny little ads in hundreds of newspapers.

[jeff061]

Wong Kurt. Why can't people compare and contrast things. Let me break it down for you people as simply as possible.

1: Manning plays good against New England in the regular season
2: Manning plays like horseshit against New England in the playoffs





Any questions?

Or should I even step it up a notch by adding the fact that New England was playing with a bunch of scrubs in it's secondary during the post season and was healthy during the regular season.

Stop dancing around my points.

[kurtism]

jeff, I have a strong feeling you wouldn't know a point if it stabbed you in the eye. Your "points," such as they are, revolve utterly around your belief that Brady is Football Jesus. You are entitled to that belief, but I choose not to share it.

NE has clearly been the better (nay, best) team in the post-season for 3 of the past 4 years. Brady has been a part of that. And NE beat IND the past 2 years as well, and Peyton's performance has contributed to that outcome as well, that is irrefutable. But to oversimplify everything as you do misses the key fact that the NFL is a team sport, and that coaching, defense and special teams factor into game results as well.

Embrace your "points," I have no expectations you will change your mind. Nor do I see any way you will change mind. But if you continue to throw up fallacy after fallacy to bolster these points, don't expect others to point those out to you.

[jeff061]

I don't give a crap about Brady, I defend the guy as a homer but the crux of my argument is anti-Manning. I'd take 2 or 3 QBs over Manning. And you still didn't anwer anyting I put forth.

I am not even talking about winning and losing. I am talking performance out of the QB position during the regular season and then the play offs.

[jeff061]

And to expound on that, since my simplified post still didn't penetrate to you.

All things being equal, Manning performs good during the regular season and bad in the playoffs. Do you not understand this? He plays the same team twice, plays it good once than like a child the second time.

[kurtism]

I am not even talking about winning and losing. I am talking performance out of the QB position furing the regular season and then the play offs.

Actually, no, you are not. You are talking about performance against New England in the playoffs. Your own statements have already utterly disregarded the results when Indy played Denver and Kansas City. Shockingly, Indy is 3-0 in those games and Peyton was brilliant. So state your point honestly, if not well: Peyton has bad games in the playoffs against the Patriots. Can't refute that. Until Indy beats the Pats in the playoffs, I won't be able to.

Doesn't change my position on Manning's abilities, and won't change yours either, I'm sure. But at least I won't have to "dance" around your points any longer.

[jeff061]

No you still are. New England is not the only team he lost games to. If he played the Steelers last year the outcome would of been the same.

And when I say lost, I mean Manning lost the game, not the Colts.

[kurtism]

No you still are. New England is not the only team he lost games to. If he played the Steelers last year the outcome would of been the same.

And when I saw lost, I mean Manning lost the game, not the Colts.

Congratulations, you are psychic! Glad to see you can predict the outcomes of games that never happened. Oh, if only I had your wisdom, insight, and abilities!

[jeff061]

Because of what, the defense?

Right, cause Manning 0-3 start in the playoffs was because of the defense, see look:


Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
1999 ten L,16-19 | 19 43 227 0 0 | 2 22 1
2000 mia L,17-23 | 17 32 194 1 0 | 1 -2 0
2002 nyj L,0-41 | 14 31 137 0 2 | 1 2 0





For those with a short memory. Mannings other gems.

[jeff061]

Congratulations, you are psychic! Glad to see you can predict the outcomes of games that never happened. Oh, if only I had your wisdom, insight, and abilities!

Don't be a dick. Look at every playoff game he played and the teams he played, a child would come to the same conclusion. But you are just off in fantasy land again.

[Desnudo]

Jets 41 - Colts 0

[kurtism]

This guy:

1996 car L,17-26 | 18 36 165 1 3 | 1 0 0
1998 ari L,7-20 | 22 49 191 1 3 | 1 0 0
1999 min L,10-27 | 22 38 286 0 1 | 0 0 0


and this guy:

1995 gnb L,17-27 | 32 65 328 0 2 | 9 77 1
1997 gnb L,10-23 | 23 38 250 0 1 | 2 1 0
1998 atl L,18-20 | 23 37 289 1 3 | 6 19 1

obviously suck as well... Just ignore their good games!

[RendeR]

I don't give a crap about Brady, I defend the guy as a homer but the crux of my argument is anti-Manning.



This is exactly why your argument is worthless. You don't give a damn about facts, your a homer and a hater, nothing objective truly matters to your argument because in your gut you're going to promote one and diss the other no matter what information is given.

Side by side, these two quarterbacks compare like so:

Peyton Manning will be in the Hall of Fame one day following his first year of eligibility
Tom brady will probably get in also, about 15 years after he's eligible.

Peyton is the better Quarterback, skills, knowledge and ability period.
Brady is a GOOD quarterback, but I don't consider him the top 5 in the league, let alone the best when it comes down to being a QUARTERBACK.

[jeff061]

Render once again, I take Brady over Manning because of Manning's failures more than Brady's positives. Brady happens to be the topic of this discussion but you could swap his name with a few others.

Kurt, I'm not ignoring his good games. Show me a good game he had against a team with any defense at all to speak of, even in a losing effort. He's had plenty of oppurtunities, shouldn't be to hard.

All things being equal, Manning performs good during the regular season and bad in the playoffs. Do you not understand this? He plays the same team twice, plays it good once than like a child the second time.

[st.cronin]

Side by side, these two quarterbacks compare like so:

Peyton Manning will be in the Hall of Fame one day following his first year of eligibility
Tom brady will probably get in also, about 15 years after he's eligible.

I don't stand with Jeff on all of his points; my argument is that, while in many cases 'clutch' performance is exalted and hyperbolized, in the case of Brady and Manning it is such a slam dunk which one has been a better clutch performer that it seems silly to want Manning over Brady as your QB.

But I've already said THAT - the point of this post was to highlight that sentence above and make Render look silly to all the world.

Cause that's just a stupid thing to say - it would be like if I said "Derek Jeter has a decent chance of someday making the hall of fame if he keeps it up for a few more years."

[Huckleberry]

Kurt, I'm not ignoring his good games. Show me a good game he had against a team with any defense at all to speak of, even in a losing effort. He's had plenty of oppurtunities, shouldn't be to hard.
The 2003 Broncos had the #3 defense in the NFL, and were #6 in passing yardage allowed. Manning was 22-26, 377 yards, 5 TD, 0 INT in that game.

The 2004 Broncos were the #4 defense in the NFL and were #6 in passing yardage allowed. Manning was 27-33, 457 yards, 4 TD, 1 INT in that game.

You're right, that wasn't very hard.

[boilermaker]

It's Marino vs. Montana for this generation. Except, this generation's Marino is surrounded by Pro Bowlers and Hall of Famers while this generation's Montana has carried his team squarely on his shoulders, with the help of one great kicker.

It's not even close. Brady.

[kurtism]

It's Marino vs. Montana for this generation. Except, this generation's Marino is surrounded by Pro Bowlers and Hall of Famers while this generation's Montana has carried his team squarely on his shoulders, with the help of one great kicker.

It's not even close. Brady.

Rodney Harrison, Teddy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Ty Law, Mike Vrabel, Corey Dillon, and the current Super Bowl MVP think you aren't respecting them. Disrespect makes baby Jesus cry.

[jeff061]

Was thinking 2003 was KC for some reason.

So in the end, if you are content with 2 good games, 1 against KC, and 5 poor ones. I guess that's where this ends.

[jeff061]

Rodney Harrison, Teddy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Ty Law, Mike Vrabel, Corey Dillon, and the current Super Bowl MVP think you aren't respecting them. Disrespect makes baby Jesus cry.

Dillon for one year, which no doubt made him better, but he won two super bowls(playing well in both) with Antoine Smith. The rest helped out the offense how? The defense has nothing to do with how the QB performs.

[kurtism]

Dillon for one year, which no doubt made him better, but he one 2 supoer bowls with Antoine Smith. The rest helped out he offense how? The defense has nothing to do with how the QB performs.

Oookay, then. Can't argue with this logic.

[jeff061]

I sense the sarcasm but I'm not sure why. If Manning had players of equal skill level would he have put 20 more points on the board in the games he struggled in?

[Huckleberry]

Was thinking 2003 was KC for some reason.

So in the end, if you are content with 2 good games, 1 against KC, and 5 poor ones. I guess that's where this ends.I'm not content with anything. I just simply busted you on your implication that he hadn't had any good games against good defenses in the playoffs.

Which was predictably and quickly followed by your argument changing from "he hasn't had any good games in the playoffs against good defenses" to "well he's only had two" in the next post.

Go do some research and come back when you have everything in order. I'm not nearly as emotional about this subject as you clearly are, but that's okay. I'll still listen. Let it all out.

[jeff061]

Yeah you did. I put my foot in my mouth on that point. He had two impessive games. He still has a ratio I consider unacceptable, especially when compared to how flawless he is during the regular season. If you find it acceptable then there is nothing more to argue on.

[jeff061]

Let me make this clear, if he performed in the post season 75% as well as he does during the regular season I'd take him over just about any QB in the history of the game, EASILY over Brady. This may come to fruition in the future, but he hasn't proved it yet. Brady has.

I'm exaggerating my criticisms on Manning so people stop looking at my Brady support, since that's really not what I'm trying to argue and that's not going to go anywhere. There is nothing tangible to argue with when it comes to Brady's talent.

[Raiders Army]

Manning chokes on Brady's jockstrap. That being said, both of them are not equal to the greatness of the Raiders.

[RendeR]

The defense has nothing to do with how the QB performs.


Are you totally football ignorant or just trying to confuse everyone? Cause if you believe this load of crap you truly no nothing about the sport.

[Daimyo]

As a Pats fan if you had to chose between Brady and Belichick to stay with the team and the other would never have any involvement again, which would you choose to keep?

As a Colts fan I'd much prefer the Pats lost Belichick than Brady (and I think Brady has developed into a top 3 QB!).

[boilermaker]

Rodney Harrison, Teddy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Ty Law, Mike Vrabel, Corey Dillon, and the current Super Bowl MVP think you aren't respecting them. Disrespect makes baby Jesus cry.

Well, correct, I should have qualified my statement regarding "offense". The weapons Manning has had over his career are overwhelmingly superior to Brady's if you consider accomplishments, accolades, and draft pick position. It's arguable that Manning has played with three other future Hall of Famers on his offense. The only 1st Rounder I can think of off the top of my head on the New England offense was Terry Glenn, and he wasn't a major factor in the New England offense when Brady was starting. I could be wrong, but that's how I remember it.

[judicial clerk]

I think Willie McGinnest would have given Manning a Code Red after one week on the team, resulting in his father demanding a trade to the Giants.
Check and mate.

Being the QB is about more than just having a quick release or leading the league in audibles, it is about being behind in the fourth quarter of the superbowl and still taking time to notice john candy in the crowd.

Just ask the Eagles if they would rather have McNabb or Brady when the game is on the line. Same goes for the Rams and the Panthers. As Rick James would say, "Tom Brady, your cold as ice!"

BTW, I hate that cocksucker Brady. Tuck rule my ass. What kind of bullshit is that!?!

In conclusion, I reluctantly choose Brady.

[rkmsuf]

Jets 41 - Colts 0

best post award

[Daimyo]

There seems to be some confusion among Pats fans that the Colts actually have had a good running game since 2001! You guys might remember that Edge suffered a devastating injury in 2001, missed most of that season and then basically sucked for the next two years? It wasn't until last season that you could even start to compare him to his 1999/2000 form, but IMO he still comes up well short.

Here are stats again pulled from footballoutsiders.com. In addition to doing DPAR for individual players they rate teams (off, def, st) on every play and provide a stat for percent above or below league average. This table lists the Colts and Pats rushing offenses since 2001. As you can see they were both at or below league average up until last season when Edge was mostly recovered and the Pats got Dillon. Two out of four seasons, Brady has actually had a better rushing game than Manning (although I'm not sure you can really say either was helped much by it pre-2004).

Rushing Offense: (percent better than average)
<table><tr><td>Year</td><td>IND</td><td>NE</td></tr><tr><td>2004</td><td>+9.4%</td><td>+12.2%</td></tr><tr><td>2003</td><td>-3.2%</td><td>-7.8%</td></tr><tr><td>2002</td><td>-2.4%</td><td>+1.6%</td></tr><tr><td>2001</td><td>-3.1%</td><td>-14.8%</td></tr></table>

Same stat, this time for total team defense. I think you can clearly see who has had the edge here.
Total Defense: (percent better than average)
<table><tr><td>Year</td><td>IND</td><td>NE</td></tr><tr><td>2004</td><td>-2.3%</td><td>+9.1%</td></tr><tr><td>2003</td><td>-2.2%</td><td>+22.0%</td></tr><tr><td>2002</td><td>-7.4%</td><td>+3.4%</td></tr><tr><td>2001</td><td>-16.1%</td><td>+3.4%</td></tr></table>

[wade moore]

I heart Daimyo.