A vision of Solecismic's next game

[Buccaneer]

I had a vision last night about Solecismic's next game. I don't know if this is original but at least it was clear to me: One of the most talked about annoyances of FOF was the apparent disconnect between TCY and FOF, as well as strong propenents of TCY or FOF, it struck me that the next game will be both. Not an upgrade of both products but a marriage - one seemless universe. A user can choose a TCY career while FOF is run in parallel in the background or a user can choose a FOF career while TCY is run (and the source of the FOF draft since it is one universe). Additionally, as a selling point, a user can choose to play as a coach and move through the ranks in college and to the pros - using the model that FBCB does so well.

[Raiders Army]

Nice vision. If it comes true, you're Jesus.

[gstelmack]

Boy, this is old. I think I even talked about it last year before the 5.1 / 1.3 patches came out. I would LOVE to see this.

[Buccaneer]

I didn't think it was original.

[Raiders Army]

Was it a wet dream or didn't you get that far?

[Airhog]

Paging Maximus!

[Daimyo]

Jim really needs to play CM. That is pretty much what you described and definately the direction I think the game needs to go.

[Young Drachma]

High School maybe. But Pop Warner? Nuh Uh

[DaddyTorgo]

Jim really needs to play CM. That is pretty much what you described and definately the direction I think the game needs to go.
should we all just chip in and buy Jim a copy of CM so that he can play it?

as an aside...everytime I mention a SI/Solecismic "merger" I get intrigued comments from Jim and Marc. I think that's something all of us would drool over.

[maximus]

Paging Maximus!


Actually i came up with this idea months ago and I was told that it would be a bad business move. :(

[sabotai]

People bring this idea up every once in awhile and have been since TCY was orginally released.

[NoMyths]

one seemless universeA universe where everything is actual! Wallace Stevens would be so excited!

[A-Husker-4-Life]

I really don't think he would merge the game together because they both make him money seperate but if he did it would cost $80+ dollars... Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it happen...

[cthomer5000]

bad business move. NO.

[Buccaneer]

Fair enough.

[sovereignstar]

I think FOF and DMB should be merged together. That would rule.

On sale now! DMB-FOF can be yours for only $100!!

[Eaglesfan27]

I agree that it is a bad business model to have both in one game. I don't know if this is technologically feasable, but I think it would be both great for business and for the gamer, if the two games could be run side by side and communicate with each other in real time to update potential draftees and such and run virtual worlds side by side. Heck, I'd just settle for small improvements in the transition of players from TCY2 to FOF.

[vex]

I really don't think he would merge the game together because they both make him money seperate but if he did it would cost $80+ dollars... Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it happen...

$80? I'll buy.

[cuervo72]

I agree that it is a bad business model to have both in one game. I don't know if this is technologically feasable, but I think it would be both great for business and for the gamer, if the two games could be run side by side and communicate with each other in real time to update potential draftees and such and run virtual worlds side by side. Heck, I'd just settle for small improvements in the transition of players from TCY2 to FOF.

A model like say, CoH and CoV...

[stevew]

The multiplayer aspect of a game such as this would be phenominal.....imagine 32 pro teams running in the background, as 40-50 human GM's gradually work from division 3 up to the pro level. It would be awesome with american football.

[sabotai]

I wouldn't say it would absolutely be a bad business model. Maybe right now, but you'd think at some point, eventually some one is going to do that (combine pro and college into one game). And, giving that it's actually a good game, they will have a leg up on all other football sims (again, giving that the game is as good as, or maybe just slightly worse, then the competition) Who is going to buy 2 games when they can get it all in just 1? But yeah, probably not a good business move until you have a good feeling someone else is doing it.

[Axxon]

I think FOF and DMB should be merged together. That would rule.

On sale now! DMB-FOF can be yours for only $100!!

I'm pretty sure DMB alone goes for more than that now. :)

[Capital]

Does Jim have a business model? We haven't really heard from him in a while. I would have hoped I could have purchased a game (preferrably football) by now.

[Hurst2112]

Does Jim have a business model?

waiting for good one-liners to follow...

[Vince]

...everytime I mention a SI/Solecismic "merger" I get intrigued comments from Jim...
You sure on this one? Every time I've seen it mentioned, if he responds at all it is to maintain his hardline stance as an independent developer. I could be wrong...

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Well if he has a game it better come quick cuz in a matter of weeks I'll be futbol'ed and hockey'd out with the release of FM 06 and Fry's having EHM05.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Maybe Jim should try to merge with a huge videogame corporation like say...EA, :D

[Emiliano]

I had a vision last night about Solecismic's next game. I don't know if this is original but at least it was clear to me: One of the most talked about annoyances of FOF was the apparent disconnect between TCY and FOF, as well as strong propenents of TCY or FOF, it struck me that the next game will be both. Not an upgrade of both products but a marriage - one seemless universe. A user can choose a TCY career while FOF is run in parallel in the background or a user can choose a FOF career while TCY is run (and the source of the FOF draft since it is one universe). Additionally, as a selling point, a user can choose to play as a coach and move through the ranks in college and to the pros - using the model that FBCB does so well.
That would be a dream.

[Sidhe]

A universe where everything is actual! Wallace Stevens would be so excited!

I have to give you points for knowing who Wallace Stevens is..

But you've got him just about backwards there, from a critical point of view.. He did write a poem called something like "Not Ideas, But the Thing Itself", so I can see where someone would get the idea that he liked what was actual, if what you mean by that is what is physical and tangible and "real". But his poetry was obsessed with the space that lies between what is really there (which we cannot really know) and what our senses fool us into believing. His is a poetry of the subjective. When you start focusing on perceptions, you've left the actual behind.. I think a universe where everyting was actual would have depressed Stevens to no end.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

--wandering literary critic, ret.

[John Galt]

Why is the merger of the games different than the CM/FM model? It isn't like they force the gamer to buy separate games for each of the country leagues or divisions. The universe of college and pro football is much smaller than that of FM. Sure, there are differences that need to be accounted for, but the possibility of a consistent career make it worth it. FM allows you to rise through the ranks and coach conference teams all the way to top divisions in each country. Why can't you start as a small college coach and rise to coach an NFL team? I'm not sure this is the "best" business model, but I don't think you can call it a "bad" one.

[WSUCougar]

I think this is the stage of the thread where Solecismic pops in and says something like, "It's a wonderful idea that just isn't technically feasible. The nimboplasm of TCY cannot mesh with the gazoodget of FOF. It can't happen."

[gottimd]

I think this is the stage of the thread where Solecismic pops in and says something like, "It's a wonderful idea that just isn't technically feasible. The nimboplasm of TCY cannot mesh with the gazoodget of FOF. It can't happen."Eek gads, nimboplasms and gazoodgets, golly gee willikers!

[cuervo72]

I think in Jim's mind it would cut his revenue stream in half. Take FOFC - you have a group that would by both TCY and FOF were they to be renewed. That's more money than if you just sell one game with both. If Jim could sell twice as many of them, then it might make sense, but there's absolutely no guarantee that would happen.

[Anthony]

it *could* happen, jim is just too lazy. he's limited in vision, stubborn in his ways. if someone were to create such a game, it would be glorious. i don't think it's that far off, SI could easily do something like it. a game like that easily falls into the style of sports management games we're accustomed to them producing.

if they were to make such a game - i'm outta here. i'd become a hermit.

[Anthony]

I think in Jim's mind it would cut his revenue stream in half. Take FOFC - you have a group that would by both TCY and FOF were they to be renewed. That's more money than if you just sell one game with both. If Jim could sell twice as many of them, then it might make sense, but there's absolutely no guarantee that would happen.

not quite. if you had to decide between paying for both a pro game and a separate college game from another company, or one mega game that would cost like $20 or so more - you might be inclined to kill two birds with one stone and go with the mega game. so yeah, you lose money selling two games as one, but you also get more customers by stealing potential buyers from the competition.

but don't look for such a game from Solecismic, jim has made it very clear he likes keeping his company small. like i said, such a game would have to come from SI, who already makes similar games to these.

[NoMyths]

I have to give you points for knowing who Wallace Stevens is..

But you've got him just about backwards there, from a critical point of view.. He did write a poem called something like "Not Ideas, But the Thing Itself", so I can see where someone would get the idea that he liked what was actual, if what you mean by that is what is physical and tangible and "real". But his poetry was obsessed with the space that lies between what is really there (which we cannot really know) and what our senses fool us into believing. His is a poetry of the subjective. When you start focusing on perceptions, you've left the actual behind.. I think a universe where everyting was actual would have depressed Stevens to no end.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

--wandering literary critic, ret.I've got to take points away for not knowing who I am*, but fair enough; we'll play. One of Stevens' most famous lines is "Let be the finale of seem" from his poem "The Emperor of Ice Cream," in which a death serves as the catalyst for a reflection on the difference between the actual and the illusory world (and happens to be the point of my joke). "No ideas but in things" was one of William Carlos Williams' contributions to the Modernist literary perspective, and represented his poems perfectly. Stevens is also one of the Modernist trailblazers, helping to define a style that places most of its stock in image over rhetoric. Consider his "Anecdote of the Jar," for example. Certainly he was obsessed with the ambiguity of the space between the actual and the illusory**; it just didn't change the fact that he did his explorations from an Modernist perspective. You are correct when you say that an absolutely actual universe would have depressed Stevens; he says this himself, in fact, in the very poem I referenced in my first post. The choice of 'excited' over, say, 'pleased,' was a conscious one: Stevens would have had plenty to write about.


* There's a reason the title under my name isn't Grizzled Veteran, and it ain't for my haiku.
** He was also unforgivably obsessed with the colors blue and green, which seemingly appear in 85% of his poems. Not sure what the actual tally is. ;)

[John Galt]

Everyone stand back - we have a poet cagematch going on.

[NoMyths]

hehe...nah, just some friendly territorial pissings. ;)

[cthomer5000]

not quite. if you had to decide between paying for both a pro game and a separate college game from another company, or one mega game that would cost like $20 or so more - you might be inclined to kill two birds with one stone and go with the mega game. so yeah, you lose money selling two games as one, but you also get more customers by stealing potential buyers from the competition.

but don't look for such a game from Solecismic, jim has made it very clear he likes keeping his company small. like i said, such a game would have to come from SI, who already makes similar games to these.
I think there is a fairly large percentage of college football fans who aren't interested in the pro game, and vice versa. So Solecismic could potentially end up losing itself some customers. If you're a college football fan, why pay 60 for TCY/FOF if you could get Bowl Bound College Football for 40?

[Hurst2112]

If you're a college football fan, why pay 60 for TCY/FOF if you could get Bowl Bound College Football for 40?

Because Jim made it. Proof is in the pudding: Jim makes great games. I certainly see your point, and tend to take HA's side on things like this. Yet, I would think that a college football fan would realize that if a game like this came from Jim, it would be a good game to invest in.

[gottimd]

Because Jim made it. Proof is in the pudding: Jim makes great games. I certainly see your point, and tend to take HA's side on things like this. Yet, I would think that a college football fan would realize that if a game like this came from Jim, it would be a good game to invest in.Couldn't you also, not sure how easy it is to actually implement, but not only package them both into one game, but have the ability to Play only the College side (For TCY fans), and Play only Pro side( For FOF fans), and play both. And even if you select play one side, the other continues to run as well but all AI simulations. For instance, if you select, play college only, you can see how players from your school did in the pro's as well, and in only pro, you can get a feel for the upcoming draft classes?

[rkmsuf]

It's like ketchup and mustard in the same bottle. A no brainer.

[Blackadar]

if they were to make such a game - i'm outta here. i'd become a hermit.

And what would be different?

[Hurst2112]

Couldn't you also, not sure how easy it is to actually implement, but not only package them both into one game, but have the ability to Play only the College side (For TCY fans), and Play only Pro side( For FOF fans), and play both. And even if you select play one side, the other continues to run as well but all AI simulations. For instance, if you select, play college only, you can see how players from your school did in the pro's as well, and in only pro, you can get a feel for the upcoming draft classes?

Yes, I am thinking this is what Buc was thinking.

This would be the ultimate game for me. Still, I don't know of many GMs in real life that get canned in the pros and get an AD job in college. Vice versa.

A coach, that's a different story.

[rkmsuf]

Hermits don't have computers.

[Hurst2112]

Hermits don't have computers.

Hermits have crabs.

[CraigSca]

From a business point of view, I'm not sure this makes sense (though it would be cool from a "universe" point of view). If he charged $60, that would certainly take him out of the price range of some folks (probably not anyone here, however).

So, really it's purely theoretical from his point of view as to how much more money he can make selling one large package vs. two smaller packages. I'm sure there would be a lot of development work involved, and you have to wonder what the payback would be, especially if it's not a 100% that he would benefit.

[cthomer5000]

Because Jim made it. Proof is in the pudding: Jim makes great games. I certainly see your point, and tend to take HA's side on things like this. Yet, I would think that a college football fan would realize that if a game like this came from Jim, it would be a good game to invest in.
You're thinking very small here, as is Hell Atlantic. What about the uneducated consumer? A cheaper college game that has prettier graphics (Bowl Bound), or a more expensive college game that also a pro portion you have no interest in?


BTW, I am not trying to knock Bowl Bound. I'm extremely interested in the game personally, and i think it's appearance (from the screen shots i've seen) looks great, and will be more immediately accessible to the average (non-educated) buyer.

[rkmsuf]

Hermits have crabs.

So Jim makes a new, awesome game and HA gets crabs.

Interesting.

[Hurst2112]

You're thinking very small here, as is Hell Atlantic. What about the uneducated consumer? A cheaper college game that has prettier graphics (Bowl Bound), or a more expensive college game that also a pro portion you have no interest in?


BTW, I am not trying to knock Bowl Bound. I'm extremely interested in the game personally, and i think it's appearance (from the screen shots i've seen) looks great, and will be more immediately accessible to the average (non-educated) buyer.

I see your point.

I am NOT concerned about the uneducated consumer. I care about a game like this. I care about getting something cool like this from Jim. I could care less about Jim's business plan, target market, etc.

Uneducated consumer? Well, isn't that where marketing comes into play? Oh yeah, we had that discussion before as well. ;)

Also, bowl bound may look better than Jim's games. Hell, it may prove to play better; yet from the history of that family tree (TPF, 400 Studios) all those people who want bells and whistles better realize that the future of BB is questionable.

[Hurst2112]

So Jim makes a new, awesome game and HA gets crabs.

Interesting.

The planets align.

[cthomer5000]

I am NOT concerned about the uneducated consumer. I care about a game like this. I care about getting something cool like this from Jim. I could care less about Jim's business plan, target market, etc.

Uneducated consumer? Well, isn't that where marketing comes into play? Oh yeah, we had that discussion before as well. ;)
Marketing makes people aware of product's existence. Still, there is no way for the consumer to know that a game made by Solecismic is more likely to be a solid product (based on track record). You listed that as the reason why a consumer would buy a higher priced Solecismic product. It's not a valid argument for a new customer.


Cost is a huge factor in any new purchase for a consumer buying from something/someone that has no track record with them.

And then again, bottom line I think Jim would be losing sales. I'm positive that there are more sales of FOFX + TCY then there would be for a combined sim. I think you might end up alienating more consumers with either 1) price 2) features they aren't interested in (pro or college) than you add by putting out what would (apparently) be the first combined game of it's type.

[Hurst2112]

You listed that as the reason why a consumer would buy a higher priced Solecismic product. It's not a valid argument for a new customer.

Again, I don't care about new customers. I care about myself. And again, I see your point.

[Raiders Army]

I'd buy that for a dollar.

[cthomer5000]

Again, I don't care about new customers. I care about myself. And again, I see your point.
Sorry, i didn't really get that out of your first response. What I found confusing was your "isn't this what marketing is for?" comment. "No, it isn't" is my response.

[Hurst2112]

Sorry, i didn't really get that out of your first response. What I found confusing was your "isn't this what marketing is for?" comment. "No, it isn't" is my response.

I don't love you any less. ;)

[Daimyo]

I don't get the business model argument. Right now Jim releases a game roughly every year. If he went to this model it would still be one game a year... no more, no less. You might lose some people who wouldn't want to pay for a "roster update" every year, but you'd also gain some people who would buy every pro game but pass on every college game and vice versa. If anything I think he'd sell more games that way. *shurg*

[RedKingGold]

I'd hit it

[moriarty]

I don't get the business model argument. Right now Jim releases a game roughly every year. If he went to this model it would still be one game a year... no more, no less. You might lose some people who wouldn't want to pay for a "roster update" every year, but you'd also gain some people who would buy every pro game but pass on every college game and vice versa. If anything I think he'd sell more games that way. *shurg*

I agree with Daimyo. If Jim released a new version of each game every year and sold them separately he might be cannibalizing his sales if he combined them. But I'd find it hard to believe he was still selling that many copies of TCY to make a big difference, and the potential increase in sales (from a big release) would make up for any loss in separate FOF/TCY sales I would think.

[CamEdwards]

I read this entire thread confusing Wallace Stevens and Wallace Shawn.

[VPI97]

TCY2 - $35
FOF6 - $35

Combo game (using code from both games in one executable) - $60

Since I assume that FOF and TCY do not use the same data formats, I would think that the code to produce such an effort would be tedious, but I dont think marketing or a sales plan would be an issue. IF Jim were to upgrade both games to use compatible data, a link between the two could be a straightforward undertaking...and in that event I don't think it would be much of a stretch to see the games offered separately or in a combo program. But that's a big IF.

[Sidhe]

Aw heck, it took me so dang long to write the page is past now.. this was a reply to NoMyths..

Sorry that I don't know who you are. My attention span isn't what it used to be, as the WCW mix up shows.. I used to know a lot of things. Where did it all go?

I think that line should be "let be be the finale of seem" but I can't trust my memory so I'll look it up:

Call the roller of big cigars,
The muscular one, and bid him whip
In kitchen cups concupiscent curds.
Let the wenches dawdle in such dress
As they are used to wear, and let the boys
Bring flowers in last month's newspapers.
Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream.

Take from the dresser of deal.
Lacking the three glass knobs, that sheet
On which she embroidered fantails once
And spread it so as to cover her face.
If her horny feet protrude, they come
To show how cold she is, and dumb.
Let the lamp affix its beam.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream.

I wouldn't call that poem one of Stevens' best, but it does get its share of anthologizing. I think he's too petulently reflexive here, and his point too plain. He was always good with the alliteration, but he's self-consciously overdoing it here for effect -- he's making fun of a tendency in Modernism (and all poetry too) to revel in the sounds, to sound "poetic". This is one of his main gigs -- he can make fun of poetry itself and sound great doing it.

Don't miss the irony of the juxtaposition of the line you quote with the next line: "let be be the finale of seem \ The only emporer is the emporer of ice-cream"

In plain langage he is saying, "The rules of poetry are silly. Like an emporer of ice-cream."

He's making pretty much the same point in a poem I like better, "Disillusionment of Ten O'Clock," which comes four places later in Harmonium:

The houses are haunted
By white night-gowns.
None are green,
Or purple with green rings,
Or green with yellow rings,
Or yellow with blue rings.
None of them are strange,
With socks of lace
And beaded ceintures.
People are not going
To dream of baboons and periwinkles.
Only, here and there, an old sailor,
Drunk and asleep in his boots,
Catches Tigers
In red weather.

I think he's saying something about how rules and customs rob us of our creativity and individuality. His opinion here comes in a context -- Ezra Pound and the other High Modernists had created rules for modern poetry (I think it's called "the manifesto" but can't be sure my brain isn't fizzing on that..) The double irony is that Pound wanted to get out from under the rules of the previous generation of poets. But Stevens was very much his own man. He wasn't going to hew to anyone's rules.

That mistake of mine re: the Williams poem is sort of on point. Stevens detested Williams and the others of his ilk -- that is to say he detested their writing, and their assumptions; I don't know that he disliked them personally. He didn't shrink from making it plain, either, and a couple of them took issue with it. One famous exchange between Stevens and Frost went like this:

Stevens: "The trouble with you is that you write about things"
Frost: "The trouble with you is that you write about bric-a-brac!"

Frost believed that a true poem is wedded to the land and the people in a real way. If you read him long you'll see his poems are full of people and places that are at least ostensibly real. You won't see this so much with Stevens. He prefers titles, like "the philosopher," or "ephebe" to names. Where he does have people and places, they are "blued" -- tinged with an unreality, as in "The Idea of Order at Key West," where a ghostly "singer" along a beach is "the single artificer of the world \ In which she sang." Well, there is a reality there, but it is *her* reality -- subjective. And listening, the speaker and "Pale Ramon," at first glance, at least, two people we can suppose to be real, have their own realities colored too. The way our own minds work as "the artificer of the world" in which we live is Stevens' whole gig, in a nutshell. And that's what I was saying when I said what I said. With Stevens, things don't exist without a mind to perceive, and color them.

Here's a good example from section v of Notes Toward a Supreme Fiction: "The lion roars at the enraging desert, \ Reddens the sand with his red-colored noise".

The sand wasn't red, the lion's rage colored it. The reality of that "red sand" isn't being disputed -- it's real to the lion, but the point is being made that *all* perceptions are colored in this way.

I think I'll make myself stop here, only a dozen or so paragraphs too late.. :rolleyes:

[Bee]

I don't get the business model argument. Right now Jim releases a game roughly every year. If he went to this model it would still be one game a year... no more, no less. You might lose some people who wouldn't want to pay for a "roster update" every year, but you'd also gain some people who would buy every pro game but pass on every college game and vice versa. If anything I think he'd sell more games that way. *shurg*
My thinking as well. If he were releasing a college and pro game every year and we were talking about combining them then what's being said about lost sales would make sense, but that's not the case. I'm guessing a combination game would sell slightly better than either FOF or TCY. He could probably even up the product price a little and increase his yearly profits to offset the additional work. I also agree with HA to a certain point that I don't think Jim is the type to do this. He's happy being a small developer and doesn't often change his approach. (Not saying that's good or bad, just that's the vibe I get from him).

[albionmoonlight]

TCY2 - $35
FOF6 - $35

Combo game (using code from both games in one executable) - $60

Since I assume that FOF and TCY do not use the same data formats, I would think that the code to produce such an effort would be tedious, but I dont think marketing or a sales plan would be an issue. IF Jim were to upgrade both games to use compatible data, a link between the two could be a straightforward undertaking...and in that event I don't think it would be much of a stretch to see the games offered separately or in a combo program. But that's a big IF.
Part of making it cool, though, would be to have it as one seemless universe. If it just felt like TCY and FOF patched together, then it would lose something, IMO. They would really have to feel like one gaming experience designed from the ground up.

[NoMyths]

[as above]
I'd disagree that Stevens is only writing about writing. We're on the same page about Stevens' interest in perception and imagination, though.

It's good to know that there are still some folks around here who care about poetry. :)

[Anthony]

Couldn't you also, not sure how easy it is to actually implement, but not only package them both into one game, but have the ability to Play only the College side (For TCY fans), and Play only Pro side( For FOF fans), and play both. And even if you select play one side, the other continues to run as well but all AI simulations. For instance, if you select, play college only, you can see how players from your school did in the pro's as well, and in only pro, you can get a feel for the upcoming draft classes?

this would work, i would accept that. i would want to be able to switch on and off every season. like i would want the option to take over a college if i selected "pro only", and play that for as many season as i want, once i got bored of it i would still have my continuing pro career. what might be very cool is the ability to get fired in the pro side, and then you head over to a college, build them up (and your reputation along with it) and get hired in the pro game (like Spurrier, Erickson). now that, my friends, i would gladly pay $60+ for.

EDIT: oops, didn't realize this is basically what Bucc had envisioned. someone make this game happen, i want to play it now.

[Hurst2112]

this would work, i would accept that. i would want to be able to switch on and off every season. like i would want the option to take over a college if i selected "pro only", and play that for as many season as i want, once i got bored of it i would still have my continuing pro career. what might be very cool is the ability to get fired in the pro side, and then you head over to a college, build them up (and your reputation along with it) and get hired in the pro game (like Spurrier, Erickson). now that, my friends, i would gladly pay $60+ for.

EDIT: oops, didn't realize this is basically what Bucc had envisioned. someone make this game happen, i want to play it now.

Which brings me back to my earlier post. I was assuming that all things being as they are, how easy would it be to be a GM and switch to an AD (or similar role) for college. The game would have to be changed to concentrate more on the coaching aspects of the game.

Screw it! Jim should concentrate his efforts on a college/pro game based on the ITP model. I'm sure THAT's been discussed as well around here.

[Anthony]

You're thinking very small here, as is Hell Atlantic. What about the uneducated consumer? A cheaper college game that has prettier graphics (Bowl Bound), or a more expensive college game that also a pro portion you have no interest in?


BTW, I am not trying to knock Bowl Bound. I'm extremely interested in the game personally, and i think it's appearance (from the screen shots i've seen) looks great, and will be more immediately accessible to the average (non-educated) buyer.

since when is someone who's into text sim sports games, and not, say, Madden button mashing, considered "uneducated"? you've cleary misjudged the market here, i think. by and large, i think you'll find the people who are into this genre of games would welcome the huge "universe" you get by combining both games. imagine having one mega MP league, with 30 something pro owners, and however many college coaches. you could make it so that if an owner leave the league, someone from the college ranks would get "promoted". imagine the coach bidding process - bidding on actual fucking human coaches! if you get fired as a coach, imagine having your pro coaching history still intact as you build up a college, make a it powerhouse as you bide your time till you get to go back to the pro league? this is just insane.

i think ultimately, ct, you're the one who's thinking small here. you fail to see two steps down the road, at the possibilities.

[VPI97]

Part of making it cool, though, would be to have it as one seemless universe. If it just felt like TCY and FOF patched together, then it would lose something, IMO. They would really have to feel like one gaming experience designed from the ground up.Then I tend to agree with Corey...I think that would be too much work to go into something that would command less of a market than having the two games available separately.

[Hurst2112]

if you get fired as a coach, imagine having your pro coaching history still intact as you build up a college, make a it powerhouse as you bide your time till you get to go back to the pro league?


Pete Caroll?!

[Anthony]

Pete Caroll?!

him too.

[JeeberD]

I read this entire thread confusing Wallace Stevens and Wallace Shawn.

http://www.seahawks.com/ConPics/Con4353/Wallace02275_0816.jpg

:confused:

[rkmsuf]

Seneca Wallace!

[NoMyths]

I read this entire thread confusing Wallace Stevens and Wallace Shawn.Inconcievable!

[cthomer5000]

since when is someone who's into text sim sports games, and not, say, Madden button mashing, considered "uneducated"? you've cleary misjudged the market here, i think. by and large, i think you'll find the people who are into this genre of games would welcome the huge "universe" you get by combining both games. imagine having one mega MP league, with 30 something pro owners, and however many college coaches. you could make it so that if an owner leave the league, someone from the college ranks would get "promoted". imagine the coach bidding process - bidding on actual fucking human coaches! if you get fired as a coach, imagine having your pro coaching history still intact as you build up a college, make a it powerhouse as you bide your time till you get to go back to the pro league? this is just insane.

i think ultimately, ct, you're the one who's thinking small here. you fail to see two steps down the road, at the possibilities.
I don't need to be convinced about the game. Yes, it could be cool for someone like me. Someone who is very interested in both pro and college football. Personally, I don't think many people are very into both sports. Usually people really like one and kind of dabble in the other, or simply aren't even interested in one of them.

I was responding to a very specific point that Hurst made. Something to the effect that "they would buy FOF/TCY (instead of a rival game) because Jim made it."

Of the people who are into football text-sims, I'm guessing Jim probably has collected money from 90% of them. The obvious market are not "the regulars" (since they're likely already on board) but the casual person who might just now be venturing into text-sims. My very specific point there was that the consumer is "uneducated" because they don't automatically know that Solecismic makes outstanding games. They can listen to the hype from the companies, but without going way out their way to check message boards and the like, they're simply guessing as to which will be the better game.

So let's imagine the college fan who barely cares about pro football. He sees Bowl Bound college football for $35 (I'm guessing at price here), and he sees TCY+FOF for $60. I think it's very likely he's purchasing Bowl Bound College Football.

Now the major X-factor here are the demos for both games. This is a major marketing tool, because you can basically put (a part of) the product in their hands and let them make the judgement.

I'd be curious to know the % of people who:

1) Buy without playing the demo
2) downalod the demo, then buy
3) download the demo, then don't buy

[gottimd]

So let's imagine the college fan who barely cares about pro football. He sees Bowl Bound college football for $35 (I'm guessing at price here), and he sees TCY+FOF for $60. I think it's very likely he's purchasing Bowl Bound College Football.

Now the major X-factor here are the demos for both games. This is a major marketing tool, because you can basically put (a part of) the product in their hands and let them make the judgement.

I'd be curious to know the % of people who:

1) Buy without playing the demo
2) downalod the demo, then buy
3) download the demo, then don't buyI am probably talking out of my ass since I am not sure of the marketing or programming parts of creating this, but in addition to offering all sides of the game (college only, Pro Only, both), and to fit the price gap, couldn't licenses be distributed based on what you want? That way everyone gets to have their cake and eat it too? Have 3 tiers of licensing, one that unlocks the Pro, one for College only, and one for both (Gold/silver licenses??) For the lower level licenses, its basically the same price as buying the game individually, for the "total package", it costs lets say $60. And the licenses are upgradable at any time? That way, in terms of marketing, you can capture all of your market as it was for the game, and even gain some more by having the "TCY or Die" or "FOF or die" get a chance to see both games in one.

For instance, myself, I only play FOF, but that maybe because I have never seen TCY or played it once. If I bought the FOF version and was able to see the TCY (only view it), I may become more interested in that aspect of the game and upgrade my license to be able to play both, not just view one and play the other.

So if Joe College student as $30 to spend and really wants the TCY portion, he buys that license of the game. After just being able to read and view how his team is doing or maybe he has conquered the TCY version and he gets a look at what the pro version could be like, he feels like he wants to go to the Pro Level now, so for an additional $25 (or whatever amount), he can upgrade his license and play both.

[Anthony]

ct: that's like saying "which would you rather buy from SI - a MLS game for $20 or an entire universe of soccer leagues for $40 (or however much it costs)?"

i love the pro game, don't care about the college game - but it's about spending a little more to have more at my fingertips. more options. more possibilities. it's not realistic for an unknown to take over a pro team, as we do in FOF. gotta pay your dues in the college level. even though i don't like the college game, i would play it, build my coach up so that he gets an offer from a pro team. then more scenarios pop up - are you Dennis Erickson who jumps at the chance to take over a shitty rebuilding team like the 49ers or do you play it cool and hold out like Nick Saban or Spurrier for an offer from a much better franchise?

[Raiders Army]

I just wanna know if he's going to come out with a game later this year period. If he is, then I'll hold off on the Xbox 360.

[rkmsuf]

I am probably talking out of my ass since I am not sure of the marketing or programming parts of creating this, but in addition to offering all sides of the game (college only, Pro Only, both), and to fit the price gap, couldn't licenses be distributed based on what you want? That way everyone gets to have their cake and eat it too? Have 3 tiers of licensing, one that unlocks the Pro, one for College only, and one for both (Gold/silver licenses??) For the lower level licenses, its basically the same price as buying the game individually, for the "total package", it costs lets say $60. And the licenses are upgradable at any time? That way, in terms of marketing, you can capture all of your market as it was for the game, and even gain some more by having the "TCY or Die" or "FOF or die" get a chance to see both games in one.

For instance, myself, I only play FOF, but that maybe because I have never seen TCY or played it once. If I bought the FOF version and was able to see the TCY (only view it), I may become more interested in that aspect of the game and upgrade my license to be able to play both, not just view one and play the other.

So if Joe College student as $30 to spend and really wants the TCY portion, he buys that license of the game. After just being able to read and view how his team is doing or maybe he has conquered the TCY version and he gets a look at what the pro version could be like, he feels like he wants to go to the Pro Level now, so for an additional $25 (or whatever amount), he can upgrade his license and play both.



Jim: "I'm programmer not a magician dammit!"

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9536/untitled9pr.png

[gottimd]

ninny.

[rkmsuf]

(tm)


thank you.

[Solecismic]

The fair price point of a combined game is too high for the market. There's just no niche for it right now.

Someone could come along and offer a combined product at $30. However, it would still mostly compete against the NFL and college games, strangely enough. Customers would not look at it like $30 for 2 versus $30 for 1 product. They buy what they're in the mood for.

There would be a value-add in creating more tie-ins between the college and pro games. However, this can be done through more exports.

I don't see a tremendous value as a gamer in having both simulating at the same time. For me, college is Saturdays, NFL is Sundays. Two different universes connected by the draft.

I run a business. Any CEO, from small to multi-national, has to have some sort of vision. Otherwise, why not just take a paycheck from someone else and sit in a cubicle all day reading Sportsline and ESPN.com? It's a lot easier, and probably a lot more profitable.

If people want to describe that vision as stubbornness, I can't control that. Of course I'm somewhat stubborn. Companies are not democracies. If they were, you could guarantee bankruptcy sooner or later. I do listen to my customers, however. That's why I'm here. And I also take a lot of time to analyze my sales records. Customers speak with their wallets, too.

[moriarty]

The fair price point of a combined game is too high for the market. There's just no niche for it right now.

Someone could come along and offer a combined product at $30. However, it would still mostly compete against the NFL and college games, strangely enough. Customers would not look at it like $30 for 2 versus $30 for 1 product. They buy what they're in the mood for.

There would be a value-add in creating more tie-ins between the college and pro games. However, this can be done through more exports.

I don't see a tremendous value as a gamer in having both simulating at the same time. For me, college is Saturdays, NFL is Sundays. Two different universes connected by the draft.



Uhh, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Buccaneer is a false prophet.

[rkmsuf]

Classic rope a dope? Tomorrow morning, poof, fof/tcy combined flaming orgasm edition?

[Hurst2112]

Classic rope a dope? Tomorrow morning, poof, fof/tcy combined flaming orgasm edition?


Read Jims post vertically.

(hopin it doesn't say 'fuck off' to all who oppose me')

;)

[Anthony]

i got the point long ago that Jim will go at it as he feels best - not that there's anything wrong w/ that, which was why i had stated *a* company should make such a game. perhaps a company with more resources would do it, perhaps by another small developer looking to aggressively take a big share of jim's consumer base. but i do think there is a big market out there for people who want these huge universes with hundreds of leagues running in the background.

why else would so many people, not liking soccer, continue to purchase CM/FM?

[Samdari]

Of course I'm somewhat stubborn.

Hmm, I did not see that in the FAQ at Solecismic.com.

[gottimd]

why else would so many people, not liking soccer, continue to purchase CM/FM?
Because someone triple dog dared them?

[sabotai]

So Jim's not working on a combined game........*rubs hands together doing best Mr. Burns impression* Excellent.

[Raiders Army]

Customers speak with their wallets, too.
Some wallets are nasty because they've been sweat on, farted on, and sat on for most of the day.

[moriarty]

So Jim's not working on a combined game........*rubs hands together doing best Mr. Burns impression* Excellent.

Yeah, but he also didn't say he was "working" on any game. Just that he has a vision....

[Daimyo]

From a business standpoint what is the difference between releasing TCY2 in 2005 for $30 and FOF6 in 2006 for $30 or relasing "Super Football 1" in 2005 for $30 and "Super Football 2" in 2006 for $30? Still two releases in two years... *shurg*

If anything, I don't think the business side is the drawback... most likely to do a combined game and do it right (on the level of say CM2) you'd need more than just one guy doing all the work.

[Buzzbee]

From a business standpoint what is the difference between releasing TCY2 in 2005 for $30 and FOF6 in 2006 for $30 or relasing "Super Football 1" in 2005 for $30 and "Super Football 2" in 2006 for $30? Still two releases in two years... *shurg*

If anything, I don't think the business side is the drawback... most likely to do a combined game and do it right (on the level of say CM2) you'd need more than just one guy doing all the work.
Because to create Super Football 1, it would probably take two years to create. Therefore you end up with TCY2 for $30 in 2005 and FOF6 in 2006 for $30 or Super Football 1 in 2006 for $60.

However, your second paragraph touches on it. Resources. The increased price would come from the increased amount of work to produce it.

[cthomer5000]

Because to create Super Football 1, it would probably take two years to create. Therefore you end up with TCY2 for $30 in 2005 and FOF6 in 2006 for $30 or Super Football 1 in 2006 for $60.

However, your second paragraph touches on it. Resources. The increased price would come from the increased amount of work to produce it.
...and then you also have more people saying "Meh, the list of updates in Super Football 2 isn't wowing me. I'll just wait for Super Football 3, i don't need the newest version, since i'm not in a multiplayer league."

[Buzzbee]

I'm not really sure I would want a concurrent pro and college game. Part of the fun of playing TCY or FOF, or even CM or TDCB is that you get to follow your team or follow your players. You enjoy watching your players develop and grow, and sometimes bust. Having both at once might divide your attention.

Having a college sim and pro sim rolled up in one nice, neat little package seems like it might cause one to detract from the other, in a practical sense. Think about it. Wouldn't you want to control both a college team and a pro team? If not, then all you are really asking for is coach movement from TCY to FOF and vice versa. Right? I mean you can certainly have both games open and sim one week at a time for each, right? Granted it isn't 'seamless', but it is do-able. Then at the end of the season export your TCY draft class and 'voila' the two games are integrated. Add coaches to that export and you've got your universe.

Back to my original point, if you want to manage a college and pro team it seems like the two could/would interfere. After you've recruited your incoming freshman, you want to hurry up and get them on the field to see how they do. The last thing you want to do is negotiate contracts with a bunch of pro players. Likewise, after maneuvering to get those top draft picks, the last thing you want to do is change gears and go to study hall.

I think the system now isn't too bad. It allows me to focus on one aspect at a time and develop a connection with a team and its players. Then, when I've made it through the season, I can shift focus and catch up with my pro team. Add coach movement with the draft class export and I'd be happy.

Others may have different play styles that might suit a 'super combo' game, but as is suits me pretty well.

[John Galt]

There would be a value-add in creating more tie-ins between the college and pro games. However, this can be done through more exports.

I don't see a tremendous value as a gamer in having both simulating at the same time. For me, college is Saturdays, NFL is Sundays. Two different universes connected by the draft.

I think the one benefit (and to me it is a big one) is the idea of career advancement. FM captures this better than any game (and I don't really like FM). You start out as a crappy coach for a low division team and can move on to bigger and better things. In FOF, you really don't have any feel of career advancement. Usually, the only reason you coach a new team is because you want a new challenge. In TCY, you have a degree of advancement, but it is still limited. For me, I'd like to do what football coaches do in the real world: start out small, may be catch on with a bigger college program, and if I'm really, really, really successful, get a chance to be an NFL coach.

I understand all of your arguments. I just wanted to point out one large benefit, IMO, to combining the games.

[Anthony]

I think the one benefit (and to me it is a big one) is the idea of career advancement. FM captures this better than any game (and I don't really like FM). You start out as a crappy coach for a low division team and can move on to bigger and better things. In FOF, you really don't have any feel of career advancement. Usually, the only reason you coach a new team is because you want a new challenge. In TCY, you have a degree of advancement, but it is still limited. For me, I'd like to do what football coaches do in the real world: start out small, may be catch on with a bigger college program, and if I'm really, really, really successful, get a chance to be an NFL coach.

I understand all of your arguments. I just wanted to point out one large benefit, IMO, to combining the games.

that's what i'm talking about.

[VPI97]

In TCY, you have a degree of advancement, but it is still limited. For me, I'd like to do what football coaches do in the real world: start out small, may be catch on with a bigger college program, and if I'm really, really, really successful, get a chance to be an NFL coach.For me, that could be accomplished by having TCY encapsulate Div I-A, Div I-AA, Div II, Div III and NAIA schools more than it would be just having the ability to move to the NFL.

[WSUCougar]

Hmm, I did not see that in the FAQ at Solecismic.com.Hmm, someone actually read the FAQ at Solecismic.com...alert the media!

[John Galt]

For me, that could be accomplished by having TCY encapsulate Div I-A, Div I-AA, Div II, Div III and NAIA schools more than it would be just having the ability to move to the NFL.

True enough. But like the real world, I want to be able to coach the big boys and/or return to the college ranks.

[WSUCougar]

Skimmed some of this thread so it may already have been stated, but I think that another aspect of this is that, in said "dream game," the dynamics of coach hiring would need to substantially beefed up. Rather than a simple "accept job yes/no" I think it would be cool to have an interviewing process, media interaction, and fallout (loyalty impact on recruiting for example) from your decision to pursue or not pursue jobs.

[Sidhe]

Solecismic isn 't a democracy? Walt Whitman would be devastated!

[dunkem]

As I mentioned in another thread, it all boils down to the competition in the marketplace. Right now, Jim's competitors are very limited. However, if a competitor arose that put out quality products each year and not mere roster updates, I think his marketing approach and even release frequency would increase. Until someone pushes the bar, Jim can and will use the market to his full advantage, limit his marketing and releasing products when he sees fit.

I personally would love to have job advancement from a small college to the NFL as an option. I'd also be interested in breaking down the job into offensive/defensive coordinator/coach/GM and advancing that way too. However, since there are no competitors yet, there's no reason for Jim to release all the great ideas and enhancements in one release. If Bowl Bound comes out with new features and blows TCY away, then I'm sure that you'll see TCY2 the following year. If SI games decided to come out with college/pro/world american football game merged together, I'm sure Jim would consider merging his games as well. As Jim said, there's no niche right now and he'd just be shooting his wad and limiting his sales if done in this current market.

Without sufficient competition, the smart thing for a business to do is enhance their product with just enough features to justify a new purchase.

With Bowl Bound on the horizon, I think Jim might have TCY2 waiting in the wings to see if it succeeds or not. If Bowl Bound is highly sucessful, Jim will probably incorporate some similar new features in TCY2 along with new ones to regain market advantage in the college football market. If Bowl Bound is buggy or doesn't live up to expectations, TCY2 will probably come out with some new features but enough to make us want to buy it over Bowl Bound.

While some may question Jim's vision and lack of release info, he's running his business as the market environment dictates.

[Buccaneer]

Couple of comments:

Sorry for being a little unclear on articulating what my vision was. As was clarified, the game envisioned was a user choosing one or the other or both, along with playing as a coach.

If college football is basically on Saturdays and pro football is basically on Sundays, then why do all of the sims go week to week? ;)

Someone mentioned buying Jim CM/FM. I would prefer that he would play FBCB.

[Riggins44]

I had a vision too...

A really cold guinness and a windows xp version of FPS FBPro (the pre '95 version) with the sundby utils built in.

Ah, there we go... draft that speedy TE and convert him to WR. That's the sweet stuff.

[Antmeister]

I had a vision too...

A really cold guinness and a windows xp version of FPS FBPro (the pre '95 version) with the sundby utils built in.

Ah, there we go... draft that speedy TE and convert him to WR. That's the sweet stuff.

Stop the madness! I don't want to think about what could've happened to that game if it were still around today. Dammit if Sierra hadn't let this game die in the cold, they would've had something that would have rivaled Madden (on the PC at least). Imagine what the game would've looked like today. Actually I don't want to think about anymore, because it makes me sad.....*sniffle*.

[Sidhe]

FPS FBPRO -- That game was awesome.

[Airhog]

I don't think you will see jim ever combine the two games, unless he loses most of his market share. I agree that a new version of TCY is long overdue, but it seems like FOF is his breadwinner. Personally, I would rather see him just focus on TCY and FOF and not branch out into a new sim.

[moriarty]

I had a vision too...

A really cold guinness and a windows xp version of FPS FBPro (the pre '95 version) with the sundby utils built in.

Ah, there we go... draft that speedy TE and convert him to WR. That's the sweet stuff.

I prefer a slightly chilled Guinness, but otherwise I like where you're going with this, keep up the good work.

[Bee]

I don't think you will see jim ever combine the two games, unless he loses most of his market share. I agree that a new version of TCY is long overdue, but it seems like FOF is his breadwinner. Personally, I would rather see him just focus on TCY and FOF and not branch out into a new sim.

Just a note, but I believe Jim has stated that TCY was by far his best selling game.

[Raiders Army]

Just a note, but I believe Jim has stated that TCY was by far his best selling game.
I think I remember this as well.