Poker - My First Real 'Bad Beat' Story

[GoldenEagle]

I am playing at Absoulte Poker clearing the sign-up bonus. Anyway, I am down about $5 on the day. I am Golden014.



<tt>Stage #202472582: Holdem Normal $0.50/$1 - 2005-10-10 11:52:29.002
(ET) [ 2005-10-10 11:52:29 ]
Table: PYRAMID DR. (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 6 - TWO HANDS ($24.20 in chips)
Seat 7 - FALLENFROG ($7.15 in chips)
Seat 8 - SJV276 ($22.40 in chips)
Seat 9 - CALLEPER ($59.15 in chips)
Seat 1 - GOLDEN014 ($44.75 in chips)
Seat 2 - DURANIMAL ($9 in chips)
Seat 3 - AARON432 ($22.10 in chips)
Seat 4 - RIVERLUCK ($3.77 in chips)
Seat 5 - LEELEE42 ($9.05 in chips)
FALLENFROG - Posts small blind $0.25
SJV276 - Posts big blind $0.50
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to GOLDEN014 [Qs Qh]
CALLEPER - Folds
GOLDEN014 - Raises $1 to $1
DURANIMAL - Folds
AARON432 - Folds
RIVERLUCK - Folds
LEELEE42 - Calls $1
TWO HANDS - Folds
FALLENFROG - Folds
SJV276 - Calls $0.50

I have the pocket Qs and of course raise. Nothing special.

*** FLOP *** [8s Qd 8d]
SJV276 - Checks
GOLDEN014 - Checks
LEELEE42 - Bets $0.50
SJV276 - Calls $0.50
GOLDEN014 - Raises $1 to $1
LEELEE42 - Calls $0.50
SJV276 - Calls $0.50

I flop the nut full house. I check-raise to build a big pot.
*** TURN *** [8s Qd 8d] [5c]
SJV276 - Checks
GOLDEN014 - Checks
LEELEE42 - Checks

It gets check around. No big deal. I am hoping a diamond falls.

*** RIVER *** [8s Qd 8d 5c] [Jd]

There is my diamond!

SJV276 - Bets $1
GOLDEN014 - Raises $2 to $2
LEELEE42 - Calls $2
SJV276 - Raises $2 to $3
GOLDEN014 - Raises $2 to $4
LEELEE42 - Calls $2
SJV276 - Calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***

Send that big pot my way!

GOLDEN014 - Shows [Qs Qh] (Full house, queens full of eights)
LEELEE42 - Mucks (Timeout)
SJV276 - Shows [10d 9d] (Straight flush, queen)
SJV276 Collects $17.35 from main pot


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! A gutshot straight flush draw. One freakin out!

*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($18.25) | Rake ($0.90)
Board [8s Qd 8d 5c Jd]
Seat 1: GOLDEN014 HI:lost with Full house, queens full of eights [Qs Qh
- P:Qs,P:Qh,B:Qd,B:8s,B:8d]
Seat 2: DURANIMAL Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: AARON432 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: RIVERLUCK Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: LEELEE42 HI: [Mucked] [7s Js]
Seat 6: TWO HANDS (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: FALLENFROG (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 8: SJV276 (big blind) won Total ($17.35) HI:($17.35) with Straight
flush, queen [10d 9d - B:Qd,B:Jd,P:10d,P:9d,B:8d]
Seat 9: CALLEPER Folded on the POCKET CARDS
############################################################################ </tt></pre>

[Mustang]

Same thing happened to me once but I had JJ.. flop was Jd9d9.. other guy stayed in and was raising w/Kd 10d from the start.

Ohh well.. about 95 out of 100 times I'd win that so.. *shrug*

[vtbub]

Why didn't you bet on the turn?

[GoldenEagle]

Why didn't you bet on the turn?
I was looking for the check-raise play. I figured giving a free card would not be a bad play since it could give someone a flush.

[Butter]

I would've check-called the flop, and check-raised the turn myself to try and get the extra big bet in....

But this happened to me, sorta, in Omaha. I was holding KK as 2 of my 4 down cards, flop was K-4-4, I eventually went in for about $20, as much as the other guy had, and he had pocket 4's to win with quads. It sucks. Sorry.

[MJ4H]

Heavens you want to talk about bad beats in omaha. In 2/4 omaha hi/lo just last night I had A299 and the flop was 987. The turn was a 7 and the river was a 6. I had one opponent the whole way. I got QUARTERED. I was against A277. My only opponent. Lost a lot of bets on that hand.

[Butter]

Heavens you want to talk about bad beats in omaha.

Sure, why not? You can get some REAL bad ones there.... not that this one wasn't bad, but Omaha can get crazy.

[GoldenEagle]

I got a straight flush tonight. My first ever with T9s.

[QuikSand]

Hopefully you cracked some joker who gave you a free turn card while holding queens full.

[cthomer5000]

I was looking for the check-raise play. I figured giving a free card would not be a bad play since it could give someone a flush.
But you'd already check-raised on the flop. I don't think you can expect many opponents to bet into you again, especially when a blank hit.

[GoldenEagle]

I had another bad one. It was on the Tribeca network so no hand history. But I raised PF with AA. Lots of callers. Flop comes QAx. The turn is a Q to give me the boat. The river brings another Q and I bet. The villian raises and I re-raise. He flips over QTo for the runner-runner four of a kind.

[Subby]

Hopefully you cracked some joker who gave you a free turn card while holding queens full.
Classic. :)

[sabotai]

But you'd already check-raised on the flop. I don't think you can expect many opponents to bet into you again, especially when a blank hit.
That's what I was thinking.

[cartman]

I had one like that a while back late in a tourney. I was BB holding Ad8d. It folded around to the button who raised 3X BB. SB folds. The button had been pretty aggressive, so I raise. He calls. Flop came 9dTdJd. Great flop for me. Nut flush flop, and an open ended straight flush draw. I check, he goes all in. I stop to think for a second. I figure he's holding the Qd, but I have him blocked off at the bottom end of the straight flush. He has me covered, but just by a little bit. I call. Sure enough, he has the Qd, as well as the Kd.

[LoneStarGirl]

So if you have QJo and are raised preflop for one bet, do you call?

[Samdari]

Isn't it only a bad beat when you get your money in with the best hand? Here you bet most of your money with the worst hand.

[QuikSand]

So if you have QJo and are raised preflop for one bet, do you call?

I hate QJo... it's a total sucker hand. In a limit game, I won't call a raise with it against any sort of player except a total maniac, and often not even then.

I once heard a player call QJo "Hawaii" -- with the inside joke being "if you fold QJ every time, at the end of the year, you'll save enough money to travel to Hawaii." I like that advice. It's a surprisingly weak hand, even more so against a raiser.

[QuikSand]

Isn't it only a bad beat when you get your money in with the best hand? Here you bet most of your money with the worst hand.

Admittedly, the term has to be shaped up a bit for limit action... in a no-limit game, your definition is right as far as I'm concerned. Here, where the chaser was in the hand (albeit far too cheaply for my tastes) with only one out in the deck until the river, I think that's the argument.

[Subby]

So if you have QJo and are raised preflop for one bet, do you call? No, "coldcalling" with QJo is suicide.

If you are going to play QJo in the face of a raise, and you are in late position, 3-betting is superior to cold-calling since you have now taken the lead in the hand and can often represent a much better hand than you actually have. And I would only 3-bet here if I knew the initial raiser had fairly loose opening raise standards.

So in other words, what QuikSand said. :)

[Radii]

So in other words, what QuikSand said. :)

I find this often to be the proper response to a poker question. Either that or wait for primelord to post and agree with him, both of them seem to be our best poker theory board members(at least out of those who post on the topic)

[QuikSand]

I still learn a lot by reading and thinking about poker.

[Maple Leafs]

I still learn a lot by reading and thinking about poker.
Forget that. Get your ass into an FOFC tourney, dad.

[Huckleberry]

***** Hand History for Game 3425767147 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:19495095 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Monday, January 23, 22:32:50 EDT 2006
Table Table 68333 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 9: bardomachine ( $765 )
Seat 1: Chips11007 ( $585 )
Seat 8: TWOFOURZERO ( $860 )
Seat 4: Huck_L_Berry ( $940 )
Seat 5: juniordeputy ( $2045 )
Seat 6: A1688 ( $815 )
Seat 7: PennDenn ( $1220 )
Seat 3: mf8118 ( $770 )
Trny:19495095 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Huck_L_Berry [ 6h Jd ]
juniordeputy folds.
A1688 folds.
PennDenn folds.
TWOFOURZERO folds.
bardomachine folds.
Chips11007 folds.
mf8118: shw doing it again
mf8118 calls [15].
Huck_L_Berry checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9h, 6s, Jc ]
mf8118 bets [30].
Huck_L_Berry raises [100].
mf8118 calls [70].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
mf8118 bets [30].
Your time bank will be activated in 5 secs. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
Huck_L_Berry raises [640].
mf8118 is all-In [610]
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
Huck_L_Berry shows [ 6h, Jd ] two pairs, jacks and sixes.
mf8118 shows [ Qs, Jh ] two pairs, queens and jacks.
mf8118 wins 1540 chips from the main pot with two pairs, queens and jacks.

[primelord]

No, "coldcalling" with QJo is suicide.

If you are going to play QJo in the face of a raise, and you are in late position, 3-betting is superior to cold-calling since you have now taken the lead in the hand and can often represent a much better hand than you actually have. And I would only 3-bet here if I knew the initial raiser had fairly loose opening raise standards.

So in other words, what QuikSand said. :)
Am I missing something? Both you and Quik answered her question as if it was two cold to her, but she said if you are holding QJo and it is raised and it one to you do you call.

Now we can certainly debate the merits of how you ended up in the hand for one bet with QJo in the first place. However if you do limp from some reason with QJo (and there are certainly valid reasons to do so) and it gets raised and it is just one bet back to you it would be a mistake to fold.

[Subby]

***** Hand History for Game 3425767147 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:19495095 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Monday, January 23, 22:32:50 EDT 2006
Table Table 68333 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 9: bardomachine ( $765 )
Seat 1: Chips11007 ( $585 )
Seat 8: TWOFOURZERO ( $860 )
Seat 4: Huck_L_Berry ( $940 )
Seat 5: juniordeputy ( $2045 )
Seat 6: A1688 ( $815 )
Seat 7: PennDenn ( $1220 )
Seat 3: mf8118 ( $770 )
Trny:19495095 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Huck_L_Berry [ 6h Jd ]
juniordeputy folds.
A1688 folds.
PennDenn folds.
TWOFOURZERO folds.
bardomachine folds.
Chips11007 folds.
mf8118: shw doing it again
mf8118 calls [15].
Huck_L_Berry checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9h, 6s, Jc ]
mf8118 bets [30].
Huck_L_Berry raises [100].
mf8118 calls [70].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
mf8118 bets [30].
Your time bank will be activated in 5 secs. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
Huck_L_Berry raises [640].
mf8118 is all-In [610]
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
Huck_L_Berry shows [ 6h, Jd ] two pairs, jacks and sixes.
mf8118 shows [ Qs, Jh ] two pairs, queens and jacks.
mf8118 wins 1540 chips from the main pot with two pairs, queens and jacks. No offense, but getting nine-outered on the river isn't the worst beat I've ever seen ;)

It still sucks though...sorry about that.

[Subby]

Am I missing something? Both you and Quik answered her question as if it was two cold to her, but she said if you are holding QJo and it is raised and it one to you do you call. Yeah, my apologies - my reading conprehension sucks.

[QuikSand]

Am I missing something? Both you and Quik answered her question as if it was two cold to her, but she said if you are holding QJo and it is raised and it one to you do you call.

Now we can certainly debate the merits of how you ended up in the hand for one bet with QJo in the first place. However if you do limp from some reason with QJo (and there are certainly valid reasons to do so) and it gets raised and it is just one bet back to you it would be a mistake to fold.

I went back, and still read the original question the same way I had before. You may be right, but to me, I still read it as: limit game, it's raised ahead of you preflop, you hold QJo, two bets to cold call, what do you do?

If I, for some reason, limped in with QJo and the raise comes behind me, my first reaction is to curse quietly at myself for being in the hand to begin with (because QJo simply doesn't play well against a raiser behind) and then I probably make the call for one more bet (with an expectation to check-fold the flop if I miss, and check-raise if I hit top pair). But generally speaking, I won't open-limp with QJo... if it's folded to me in late enough position to play it at all, then I prefer to open raise with it to stay out of these situations as much as possible.

[Huckleberry]

No offense, but getting nine-outered on the river isn't the worst beat I've ever seen ;)

It still sucks though...sorry about that.
Six outs, right? Three queens and three nines.

But I agree with you. It was more the way that guy had been playing up to that point.

[Subby]

Whoops you're right...I suck at poker and will stop posting in poker threads :)

[primelord]

I went back, and still read the original question the same way I had before. You may be right, but to me, I still read it as: limit game, it's raised ahead of you preflop, you hold QJo, two bets to cold call, what do you do?

If I, for some reason, limped in with QJo and the raise comes behind me, my first reaction is to curse quietly at myself for being in the hand to begin with (because QJo simply doesn't play well against a raiser behind) and then I probably make the call for one more bet (with an expectation to check-fold the flop if I miss, and check-raise if I hit top pair). But generally speaking, I won't open-limp with QJo... if it's folded to me in late enough position to play it at all, then I prefer to open raise with it to stay out of these situations as much as possible.
We certainly agree that if it is two cold to you in any position in a limit game it is almost always correct to muck the hand. I also can think of no situation where I would open limp with QJo. If it is folded to me late I would open raise if anything. I guess the situation I was picturing was you are in late position and you have several limpers in front of you and generally passive blinds. In that case I would certainly limp along with QJo myself and then if one of the blinds raised I would call one more bet.

[dixieflatline]

Just for kicks I decided to see just how bad QJo did on the pokerroom EV scale(hxxp://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/totalStats.php?order=value) and it performed much better than what I would have expected actually coming out with a slightly positive EV. For those of you who haven't looked at this page it is simply the results from all the pokerroom hands dealt for limit holdem. Anyway, QJo is tied in EV with A6s and has a better EV than 55-22 and suited connectors like 98s, 87s, and T8s. I'm not suggested calling a raise with this hand(or even open limping) but limping after several other limpers appears to be a good play.

BTW, I also checked out the EV of 92o and it appears to be MUCH better than the worst possible even outperforming such monsters as 43s and even A3o. Certainly this has to do with players overvaluing A3o and getting into trouble but interesting nonetheless.

[primelord]

Just for kicks I decided to see just how bad QJo did on the pokerroom EV scale(hxxp://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/totalStats.php?order=value) and it performed much better than what I would have expected actually coming out with a slightly positive EV. For those of you who haven't looked at this page it is simply the results from all the pokerroom hands dealt for limit holdem. Anyway, QJo is tied in EV with A6s and has a better EV than 55-22 and suited connectors like 98s, 87s, and T8s. I'm not suggested calling a raise with this hand(or even open limping) but limping after several other limpers appears to be a good play.

BTW, I also checked out the EV of 92o and it appears to be MUCH better than the worst possible even outperforming such monsters as 43s and even A3o. Certainly this has to do with players overvaluing A3o and getting into trouble but interesting nonetheless.
I would imagine some of this has to do with the fact that short handed games are being included in those numbers. In my last 200,000 6 max hands I am showing a .07/100 BB rate for QJo. Certainly not a monster money maker, but +EV none the less. My full ring games db is on another hard drive so I can't look at how it has done in full games for me.

As a matter of fact when I remove the blinds from the equation I am actually showing +EV for offsuit Q hands all the way down to Q8o. Although my Q8o and Q9o hands played out of the blinds were almost certainly all steal situations.

[Subby]

BTW, I also checked out the EV of 92o and it appears to be MUCH better than the worst possible even outperforming such monsters as 43s and even A3o. Certainly this has to do with players overvaluing A3o and getting into trouble but interesting nonetheless.
Shhh...only a select few know that 92o is absolute money. Don't educate the donks! ;)

[QuikSand]

In my current, full-table, database, QJo is a (0.26) BB proposition, a pretty significant loser. But that may well point to some leaks in my game, more than the inherent value in the hand. It's probably an especially bad hand to play if you tend to be aggressive post-flop... I'm sure I end up costing myself extra bets when I'm up against dominating hands like AQ, KQ, AJ, and KJ.

[primelord]

In my current, full-table, database, QJo is a (0.26) BB proposition, a pretty significant loser. But that may well point to some leaks in my game, more than the inherent value in the hand. It's probably an especially bad hand to play if you tend to be aggressive post-flop... I'm sure I end up costing myself extra bets when I'm up against dominating hands like AQ, KQ, AJ, and KJ.
Quik,

What's your rate with hand outside of a blind and in late position?