Crazy wierd thing with rookie contracts...anyone ever seen this? [Archive]

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 08:31 PM

Okay, something funky has come up in my league and I want to know if anyone has ever heard of this - either it being a known hack in the game or something that a player in my league is doing blatantly or what. You draft your rookies, it comes time to sign them...when I looked at the transaction log after Late FA, I noticed that this team has no "signed his rookie contract"'s. Quite odd, I found his one rookie he had (3rd overall pick) had "signed a renegotiated contract". Around $15mil over 5 years, MUCH lower than his asking price, contract had minimum salary and little bonus. The 6th overall guy had a much higher contract as well. Went back to last year's file (since this was the only one I could see) and the same team did the same thing with ALL rookies, not one of them signed a rookie contract, they all had renegotitated contracts for much lower then they should have been.

Has anyone ever seen this sort of thing happen?

stevew

10-11-2005, 08:33 PM

Screenshots?

I'd think the owner is probably cheating.

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 08:33 PM

That is what I think too, although I don't want to admit it, heh.

MizzouRah

10-11-2005, 08:35 PM

Didn't even read it was multiplayer.. yes indeed a bit of cheating I presume.

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 08:38 PM

How would I post a decent screen shot in here?

Dutch

10-11-2005, 08:38 PM

It's only cheating if it's even possible to cheat. How the heck did the owner do that?

RailsFS

10-11-2005, 08:39 PM

Hopefully, we find out.

Masked

10-11-2005, 08:41 PM

stevew

10-11-2005, 08:42 PM

gottimd

10-11-2005, 08:46 PM

My guess is they cut the player, and then resigned them in the same export to whatever their new demands were. As a result, the rookie never appeared in the FA pool.

That owner should be immediately kicked out of the league.
If you cut them doesnt the "past injustices" factor come into play and wouldnt other GMs have a chance to make an offer? Unless you are referring to the FastFL where the guy could drop him, and then he appears in the FA pool so no one will see him because you sim a lot of weeks at a time. SO they would be the only owner with an offer on him since no one else even knew he was a FA.

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 08:47 PM

This is the FastFL, but even if we sim a few weeks at a time, a computer team is bound to see that player, not only that but we would noticed if he were released and picked up again. No where on the transaction log does it say that player was released. It's like the player is simming it with commish mode or something wierd like that and exporting that file, I don't know...

RailsFS

10-11-2005, 08:48 PM

http://replicatednfl.com/fastfl/2011 Rookie Contracts.bmp
I'm Detroit, so that's what it's highlighted, but take a look at top contracts and see if you can pick the winner.

Dutch

10-11-2005, 08:49 PM

If you cut them doesnt the "past injustices" factor come into play and wouldnt other GMs have a chance to make an offer? Unless you are referring to the FastFL where the guy could drop him, and then he appears in the FA pool so no one will see him because you sim a lot of weeks at a time. SO they would be the only owner with an offer on him since no one else even knew he was a FA.

You got skillz, boy. You could be in a football text sim gang. That's got to be the answer right there or really close to it anyway.

gottimd

10-11-2005, 08:51 PM

Even if he was simming in commish mode, which I am not sure is possible, wouldnt you still see that transaction?

stevew

10-11-2005, 08:51 PM

Cut them in commish mode. Save the game. Open in Regular mode, offer the guy the contract, and then export. I think it works then. Wow, thats a helluva cheat there.

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 08:52 PM

That is what I thought too, any release of a player is noted.

Masked

10-11-2005, 08:52 PM

If you cut them doesnt the "past injustices" factor come into play and wouldnt other GMs have a chance to make an offer? Unless you are referring to the FastFL where the guy could drop him, and then he appears in the FA pool so no one will see him because you sim a lot of weeks at a time. SO they would be the only owner with an offer on him since no one else even knew he was a FA.
No - at least not in MP. I noticed I could do this in the CFL this past offseason with a second round pick. The pick, a left tackle, busted slightly. Still a useful player but not quite worth the money. I cut him, and noticed that he was now willing to accept a much lower salary. I did not resign him though.

gottimd

10-11-2005, 08:53 PM

http://replicatednfl.com/fastfl/2011%20Rookie%20Contracts.bmpWhat does this show us?

EDIT: I thought the player highlighted was the player in question.

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 08:54 PM

In Rails screenshot, look at the third overall pick. That is NOT a rookie contract that he signed.

gottimd

10-11-2005, 08:54 PM

Cut them in commish mode. Save the game. Open in Regular mode, offer the guy the contract, and then export. I think it works then. Wow, thats a helluva cheat there.
But wouldnt the game still recognize that in the transactions as "Player Released"?

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 08:54 PM

He is going to get a shot of the transaction log to prove that too.

stevew

10-11-2005, 08:56 PM

But wouldnt the game still recognize that in the transactions as "Player Released"?
No cause what you would have done is released him in a fictional commish mode, and then saved, hiding the evidence. Then you would sign him in export mode, but since it was still in the same stage as the league files, the export would work.

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 08:57 PM

What does this show us?

EDIT: I thought the player highlighted was the player in question.

Nope, sorry, Rails is Detroit :)

It also shows that the CB I drafted is a dick, haha.

gottimd

10-11-2005, 08:57 PM

No cause what you would have done is released him in a fictional commish mode, and then saved, hiding the evidence. Then you would sign him in export mode, but since it was still in the same stage as the league files, the export would work.
To run commish mode, don't you need specific Commish files? I mean you cant just press "Commissioner" instead of "Participant".

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 08:58 PM

You just need the .fmk file, that simply tells FOF that you can run in commish mode, you need nothing special.

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 08:58 PM

I think that .fmk saves a few settings too, not quite sure on that.

gottimd

10-11-2005, 09:00 PM

Well then the Denver Owner is pretty sneaky sis and should get the boot, and some sort of patch is needed to fix that or this whole thread deleted so this doesn't get out or everyone will have to examine these rookie contracts.

MTD

10-11-2005, 09:01 PM

Why is the last name not capitalized? ladevaia? Is a specific draft being used?

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 09:02 PM

Nope, imported TCY draft. And his last name starts with an "I", not an "L"

timmynausea

10-11-2005, 09:02 PM

It's an I.

RailsFS

10-11-2005, 09:02 PM

Notice the "signed his rookie contract."
http://replicatednfl.com/fastfl/Transaction Normal.bmp

Seems like Iadevaia is missing something

http://replicatednfl.com/fastfl/Transaction Log.bmp

stevew

10-11-2005, 09:02 PM

To run commish mode, don't you need specific Commish files? I mean you cant just press "Commissioner" instead of "Participant".
Actually its pretty easy, a major flaw with multiplayer, but i digress.

mckerney

10-11-2005, 09:03 PM

Why is the last name not capitalized? ladevaia? Is a specific draft being used?

I not l

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 09:03 PM

as you can tell in the transaction log, Iadevaia never signs his rookie contract as all other rookies do, he "signed a renegotiated contract"

Dutch

10-11-2005, 09:03 PM

Is it possible for Denver to be using a different start year than everybody else?

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 09:04 PM

Start year?

Dutch

10-11-2005, 09:05 PM

Start year?

Forget it, I forgot the contract was re-negotiated, not a rookie contract.

gottimd

10-11-2005, 09:06 PM

Actually its pretty easy, a major flaw with multiplayer, but i digress.
Thats poppy cock. That needs to be fixed. I never knew, I guess I was just too busy playing fair...god I'm dumb.

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 09:08 PM

Heh, I thought it was wierd when I started commishing too, but hey, maybe Jim will fix that.

RailsFS

10-11-2005, 09:09 PM

nah, you just like a "challenge."

RailsFS

10-11-2005, 09:10 PM

Heh, I thought it was wierd when I started commishing too, but hey, maybe Jim will fix that.

Perhaps we will be hearing from Jim about a game soon then :) .

Joe

10-11-2005, 09:10 PM

you should punch that owner in the ovaries.

RailsFS

10-11-2005, 09:11 PM

you should punch that owner in the ovaries.

seems fair.

PackerFanatic

10-11-2005, 09:12 PM

Done.

gottimd

10-11-2005, 09:16 PM

Done.
Do it again. DO IT...DO IT!

Fonzie

10-11-2005, 10:16 PM

Wow. Just...wow.

MrBigglesworth

10-11-2005, 10:30 PM

If he were cut, and then resigned, wouldn't it say that he "signed a new contract" or "signed as an unrestricted free agent"? Not renegotiated?

Sidhe

10-12-2005, 12:43 AM

I agree with MrBigglesworth.. why does it say renegotiated? The player would have had to already have a signed contract.

Or maybe the shennanigans the GM pulls confuses the script.

But something isn't right (aside from the rampant illegality of it all).

mckerney

10-12-2005, 12:57 AM

If he were cut, and then resigned, wouldn't it say that he "signed a new contract" or "signed as an unrestricted free agent"? Not renegotiated?

Perhaps because the participants export had no order to cut the player? When the file is important it's likely that all the commishioners installation sees is a contract offer to a player who appears to be on the team.

MrBigglesworth

10-12-2005, 01:44 AM

Perhaps because the participants export had no order to cut the player? When the file is important it's likely that all the commishioners installation sees is a contract offer to a player who appears to be on the team.
Good point, but that begs another question: if the commish's installation sees that as just another contract offer, why does the player accept it if it is so far below any of the four options that he is asking for?

Nwobhm

10-12-2005, 02:57 AM

I did a quick check of which other leagues this "Gmac" guy belongs to. It appears he's controlling the steelers in the PFL and the seahawks in the NFLfrontoffice league. Anyone currently in those leagues should probably make your commishes aware of this and decide for yourselves whether you want to play with this guy.

Edit: He's also in the dynasty football league, controlling the new mexico vipers..

mckerney

10-12-2005, 03:02 AM

Good point, but that begs another question: if the commish's installation sees that as just another contract offer, why does the player accept it if it is so far below any of the four options that he is asking for?

My guess is that contracts handled this way as processed differently than the rookie contract negotiation system.

gottimd

10-12-2005, 06:42 AM

Shocker that he was a league champion.

That means he gets an invite to that championship league, right?

Joe

10-12-2005, 06:55 AM

Shocker that he was a league champion.

That means he gets an invite to that championship league, right?

No, but he gets an invite to the FOF black list.

gottimd

10-12-2005, 07:05 AM

No, but he gets an invite to the FOF black list.
And if he isn't black?

VPI97

10-12-2005, 07:16 AM

My guess is that contracts handled this way as processed differently than the rookie contract negotiation system.Yep.

The guy needs to be banned from MP leagues.

WrongWay

10-12-2005, 07:50 AM

If he were cut, and then resigned, wouldn't it say that he "signed a new contract" or "signed as an unrestricted free agent"? Not renegotiated?
This was my guess, but I didn't think about cutting the Player in Commish mode. Can anyone actually verify this cheat? Why is the game showing the Rokkie signing a "Renogiated Contract"?

Actually this is the 2nd year Denver has Renogiated with their 1st round draft pick. So, the owner must of just discovered this cheat recently, within the last month, as 3 years ago their first round pick signed a normal rookie contract.

For the rest of you I would say start checking your transaction logs and see if you can spot any rookies signing renogiated contracts.

Alf

10-12-2005, 07:58 AM

moron

gstelmack

10-12-2005, 08:38 AM

Do you keep backup files for a few stages? I have backups with all imports and the league status right before every turn, and keep several of them around. Seems like this would be useful data to send off to Jim to find out how he managed to get a "renegotiated" contract out of this. I'm actually concerned that someone figured out how to hack the import files to change the contract type.

stevew

10-12-2005, 08:55 AM

I went to the trouble and replicated this occurance. My initial thoughts were correct, as step by step this is what the guy would have had to do in order to get the guy to sign the contract. In the FA stages (secondary), you open the game as commish, cut the player you wish to sign for an ultra cheap rookie deal, and save the game. Then in player mode you open the game, find the player you want to sign, sign him, and then export. And then when the export is opened in the original commish files(I made a backup for my test, reverting back to the pre-cut player files), it accepts the import, and does list the contract as being "renegotiated."

Slick guy, too, as he probably was evil enough to pick a high bonus amount, so the contract wouldnt appear to be fiddled with on first glance. My player i tested this with, only wanted the League min to sign.

Insta-ban this guy, like already.

stevew

10-12-2005, 08:57 AM

dola, and i wouldnt doubt that if you were planning on using it to cheat with rookie contracts, you would try to use it on regular player contracts as well.

gottimd

10-12-2005, 09:11 AM

Samdari

10-12-2005, 09:15 AM

Does he work at Dell?

KWhit

10-12-2005, 09:23 AM

I had no idea that the game could be opened in Commish mode by anyone. What other cheats does this make possible? And how do we detect them?

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 09:33 AM

Slick guy, too, as he probably was evil enough to pick a high bonus amount, so the contract wouldnt appear to be fiddled with on first glance. My player i tested this with, only wanted the League min to sign.

I saw this too.

I look in that 'View Drafted Player Status' thing all the time in the leagues that I'm in, since it's the only way to look at rookies stats in a somewhat organized way. Never would've gotten away with this in a league I'm apart of.

What a fucking clown.

Cuckoo

10-12-2005, 09:46 AM

Wow. You know, honestly, this is just sad. How pathetic do you have to be to cheat in an online league? *sigh*

Samdari

10-12-2005, 10:13 AM

I had no idea that the game could be opened in Commish mode by anyone. What other cheats does this make possible?

It certainly makes "simming ahead" possible. I thought this was a well known way to cheat, and that we had a gentleman's agreement not to do so in the IHOF.

JeeberD

10-12-2005, 10:19 AM

Wow. You know, honestly, this is just sad. How pathetic do you have to be to cheat in an online league? *sigh*

Ummm...just make sure you don't look at my signings for the last draft, k thx... :o ;)

cuervo72

10-12-2005, 10:25 AM

It certainly makes "simming ahead" possible. I thought this was a well known way to cheat, and that we had a gentleman's agreement not to do so in the IHOF.

Yep, and that's about all you can do, is have a gentlemen's agreement.

PackerFanatic

10-12-2005, 10:36 AM

There is a Championship League?

I have been a champion! Where is my invite? lol

gottimd

10-12-2005, 10:38 AM

There is a Championship League?

I have been a champion! Where is my invite? lol
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=43269

Nwobhm

10-12-2005, 11:45 AM

I'm interested to find out whether he's done this in the other 3 leagues he's involved with.

Passacaglia

10-12-2005, 12:00 PM

I'm interested to find out whether he's done this in the other 3 leagues he's involved with.

Dunno about the others, but the DFL is still in its first season.

digamma

10-12-2005, 12:11 PM

It certainly makes "simming ahead" possible. I thought this was a well known way to cheat, and that we had a gentleman's agreement not to do so in the IHOF.
I'm still a relative n00b in terms of MP, so I don't know what simming ahead accomplishes. Don't you still have to load the current game file? Is it simply to practice gameplanning against different teams?

MrBigglesworth

10-12-2005, 12:11 PM

dola, and i wouldnt doubt that if you were planning on using it to cheat with rookie contracts, you would try to use it on regular player contracts as well.
This needs more attention! This guy was found cheating because of the disparity in the Drafted Player Status list. But what about guys that are already on the team? Would they accept low-ball offers sent in this manner? Is the likelihood to accept an offer sent with the export and not calculated after importing it? If so, it would be almost impossible to tell who was doing this.

albionmoonlight

10-12-2005, 12:14 PM

I'm still a relative n00b in terms of MP, so I don't know what simming ahead accomplishes. Don't you still have to load the current game file? Is it simply to practice gameplanning against different teams?
I would see the advantage as being able to practice some things with your roster that you would otherwise have to do in a game. I can see how it might be tempting to try lots of different things with the offense if your QB goes down with injury, for instance.

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 12:19 PM

albionmoonlight

10-12-2005, 12:22 PM

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 12:26 PM

I for one think that it is refreshing to see a player of Leonard Davis' ability willing to accept such low base salaries. There's a guy who truly plays for the love of the game.

Oh, it ain't just Leonard Davis. It's about a 1/5th of his team. In 9 renegotiated contracts of the current season, he has handed out 134.3 million dollars in bonus money.

albionmoonlight

10-12-2005, 12:32 PM

Oh, it ain't just Leonard Davis. It's about a 1/5th of his team. In 9 renegotiated contracts of the current season, he has handed out 134.3 million dollars in bonus money.Maybe players just like to play for him. Ever think of that? Maybe he gets them coke and hookers, and they are willing to give up a little cash in exchange? Coke and hookers tend to explain a lot.

Oh, forget it. This dude is such a tool, it's not even fun to joke about him. Permaban him from every league in existence and be done with it.

What a maroon.:(

albionmoonlight

10-12-2005, 12:33 PM

dola--

Although I do hope that he shows up here to "defend himeself." That thread would become an insta-legend before SkyDog locked it.

CraigSca

10-12-2005, 12:47 PM

If this indeed true, he just won our championship (FOFL).

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 12:50 PM

If this indeed true, he just won our championship (FOFL).

Not to be confused with the other FOFL.

cuervo72

10-12-2005, 12:52 PM

If this indeed true, he just won our championship (FOFL).

Our lawyers will be in touch...

timmynausea

10-12-2005, 12:54 PM

So he has never actually posted on FOFC? That is weird.

Samdari

10-12-2005, 12:58 PM

So he has never actually posted on FOFC? That is weird.

Could be because his IP is banned - because he's HM.

I don't know that, but could be. I'm just saying.

timmynausea

10-12-2005, 01:05 PM

Could be because his IP is banned - because he's HM.

I don't know that, but could be. I'm just saying.

I was just thinking that it could mean he is actually a double for someone else, though I didn't have anyone specific in mind.

He registered in April and the account was last active in May. Here's his profile:
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/member.php?u=4246

It's completely possible that he just never got into the board, but it seems strange.

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 01:06 PM

I was just thinking that it could mean he is actually a double for someone else, though I didn't have anyone specific in mind.

He registered in April and the account was last active in May. Here's his profile:
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/member.php?u=4246

It's completely possible that he just never got into the board, but it seems strange.

I know plenty of people from leagues that have never posted here. Some don't even have an account.

PackerFanatic

10-12-2005, 01:32 PM

I know plenty of people that don't even know what FOFC is, but yeah, he has never posted here.

I have been in contact with him now and I will let you all know how that goes.

timmynausea

10-12-2005, 01:36 PM

I guess I should clarify: It's not weird that a guy in a multi-player league has never posted here. It's weird that a guy that is in 4 or 5 leagues and goes so far as to cheat in them has never posted here. It doesn't really mean anything, I just thought it was weird.

Bee

10-12-2005, 01:39 PM

I know plenty of people that don't even know what FOFC is, but yeah, he has never posted here.

I have been in contact with him now and I will let you all know how that goes.

Let us know if you find him cocky and funny.

Nwobhm

10-12-2005, 02:24 PM

I for one think that it is refreshing to see a player of Leonard Davis' ability willing to accept such low base salaries. There's a guy who truly plays for the love of the game.

I don't see anything fishy about this leonard davis deal. These kinds of contracts were discussed in our league after they were discovered. You can get significant savings by having minimum base salaries coupled with larger bonuses. This is the way jim redid the contract AI after the 5.1b bug.

The level of savings varies depending on the value of the deal, but i seem to recall getting players to sign deals as low as 60%-70% of their total asking price. The drawback of these contracts is that you're screwed should the player have a career ending injury, and since most ppl renegotiate in the final year of a deal, the savings are somewhat muted.

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 02:25 PM

I don't see anything fishy about this leonard davis deal. These kinds of contracts were discussed in our league after they were discovered. You can get significant savings by having minimum base salaries coupled with larger bonuses. This is the way jim redid the contract AI after the 5.1b bug.

The level of savings varies depending on the value of the deal, but i seem to recall getting players to sign deals as low as 60%-70% of their total asking price. The drawback of these contracts is that you're screwed should the player have a career ending injury, and since most ppl renegotiate in the final year of a deal, the savings are somewhat muted.

I didn't mean to imply that he was doing anything wrong. Ridiculously fucking stupid, yes.

Nwobhm

10-12-2005, 02:51 PM

If the mechanics of how this cheat is used can't be solved easily, I'd suggest a more reasonable fix would be that a player should demand the exact same contract whether he's a free agent or on someone's roster. That way, there would be nothing to gain by pulling this crap.

WrongWay

10-12-2005, 03:15 PM

stevew

10-12-2005, 03:21 PM

Stop. Forget about the Rookies this cheat would allow you to make bonus money dissapear.

Take a player you have capped out the past 2 seasons and is now overloaded in bonus money. Use the Same process on him and all his old bonus money will vanish, and you will have a brand new contract without any old or wasted Bonus money. Correct?

And, what makes this even better is that it is going to be a pain in the ass to spot. It will just look like another renogiated contract if done correctly.

Hmm, i think the massive bonus would hit the cap. But i will do a test to find out.

WrongWay

10-12-2005, 03:26 PM

I just checked the transaction log and it looks like he "renogiated" with 4 other players using this cheat. They now all have brand new contracts with exactly the same bonus money evey year.(No old Bonus money)

This is why you can afford to spend 100+ million in bonus money every year, because you get to whipe the slate clean next year. No problems with dead cap space.

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 03:26 PM

Correct?

No.

gottimd

10-12-2005, 03:29 PM

So has anyone confronted him about this, or are all of the Commish's just talking about it here?

stevew

10-12-2005, 03:30 PM

I attempt to use this cheat in my test league with Dre' South(aka Randy Moss). He has something like 25 million in future bonus money. I replicate the cheat the same way as previous, cut him in manager mode, and then resign him in regular mode. However now his bonus money has gone way up, and this cheat does not work.

sabotai

10-12-2005, 03:30 PM

Stop. Forget about the Rookies this cheat would allow you to make bonus money dissapear.

Take a player you have capped out the past 2 seasons and is now overloaded in bonus money. Use the Same process on him and all his old bonus money will vanish, and you will have a brand new contract without any old or wasted Bonus money. Correct?

And, what makes this even better is that it is going to be a pain in the ass to spot. It will just look like another renogiated contract if done correctly. You might be right, and hopefully someone can confirm one way or the other: If a player is released in Commish Mode, does the salary bonus penality hit the team or not?

(Edit: replied before I saw steve's last post)

WrongWay

10-12-2005, 03:32 PM

I am looking at Earl Burns contract. A free Agent he picked up 2 years ago for big money that should of still had old Bonus money attached.

VPI97

10-12-2005, 03:38 PM

Take a player you have capped out the past 2 seasons and is now overloaded in bonus money. Use the Same process on him and all his old bonus money will vanish, and you will have a brand new contract without any old or wasted Bonus money. Correct?Incorrect. The bonus money from the previous contract will still be on the books on the Commish's save game. The new contract would act as a renegotiation.

WrongWay

10-12-2005, 04:08 PM

You are correct. Earl Burns was playing on a 4 year contract that did not include any Bonus money. And, so were the other Renogiated players for Denver.

WrongWay

10-12-2005, 04:26 PM

That is something I have never understood about this game.

Why is there no Password protection for either the individual teams or at the very least the Commisioner?

gottimd

10-12-2005, 04:28 PM

Apparently there was discussion about that (password protection) and the overall feeling was that if you can't trust the people in your league, what are you doing in that league. I feel there should be protection.

Nwobhm

10-12-2005, 04:30 PM

Question: If an owner tried using this technique to extend someone's contract would you see bonuses piggybacked on top of each other?

For example: The new cheat contract adds 5million bonus on a 5 year extension. The player in question has two years left on a deal, and the prorated bonus for those 2 years was 1 million each. The new contract bonus structure should look something like this normally:

Year 1: 2m bonus with x base salary
Year 2: 2m bonus with x base salary
Year 3: 1m bonus with x base salary
Year 4: 1m bonus with x base salary
Year 5: 1m bonus with x base salary

Would this cheat eliminate the existing bonuses for years 1+2 from the old deal? From what i gather it would, and the old bonus $ would show up as lost cap room.

stevew

10-12-2005, 04:32 PM

stevew

10-12-2005, 04:33 PM

VPI97

10-12-2005, 04:34 PM

Would this cheat eliminate the existing bonuses for years 1+2 from the old deal? From what i gather it would, and the old bonus $ would show up as lost cap room.No, because the events play out on the commish's machine as a contract proposal to an already signed played...i.e. a renegotiation. The only way this manipulation works is with a rookie because they are listed as being on the roster with no existing contract. It's just a workaround to avoid the limitation of the four pre-determined contract offers that can be made to rookies.

stevew

10-12-2005, 04:37 PM

While we are on the concept of "cheats," why is it so easy to sign say 3 good OLB or something, and then alternately start 2 every year, and renegotiate the one guy that sat all the previous year for minimal money. Or if your stud QB gets hurt, misses 10 weeks, and comes back fully healed, and now only wants minimum salary. This type of shit isn't as shady as say the gmac contract status, but its every bit as bad. In the future version, something as miniscule as "games started" should not count in regards to a negotiation that takes the salary downward. Maybe if a good player who is still maxed out in skills gets hurt, he may ask for one year of minimal contract money, but never should ask for a 3 or 4 year contract.

Raven Hawk

10-12-2005, 04:57 PM

albionmoonlight

10-12-2005, 04:58 PM

That is something I have never understood about this game.

Why is there no Password protection for either the individual teams or at the very least the Commisioner?
Technological security may give people a false sense of security. People will always be willing to cheat. Passwords will, among other things, make us complacent about catching cheaters. I agree with the model of not wasting Jim's time in an arms race against the cheaters--and leaving it up to us to be careful about those with whom we play. YMMV, but I like the way it works.

And, FWIW, I would never accept unsecure software if there is, for instance, money involved. But, since FOF is just fun for me, I figure that I can leave if I ever feel that I am getting cheated.

stevew

10-12-2005, 04:58 PM

albionmoonlight

10-12-2005, 05:00 PM

Or if your stud QB gets hurt, misses 10 weeks, and comes back fully healed, and now only wants minimum salary.
Ahh. . . the Joey Allen special :)

I agree that it is not realistic, but since everyone is on the same page with it, and it is the game working as designed, I have very little problem with it.

PackerFanatic

10-12-2005, 05:04 PM

So has anyone confronted him about this, or are all of the Commish's just talking about it here?

Yes, I have confronted him. Haven't really gotten a straight answer yet but I will keep you posted.

VPI97

10-12-2005, 05:05 PM

This cheat sounds like it would also work on Franchised Players. Since they are on a 1 year deal with no bonus, they could conceivable be cut during FA2 and resigned at a fraction of what they would be asking if you were to renegotiate their franchise contract. Can somebody verify this?Most of the time the guys already take a fraction of their franchised contract.Exactly...there's no real advantage. The part of the cheat that you guys are missing is that the 'bug' in this scenario is that the import on the commish's machine doesn't differentiate a FA contract offer from one of the four pre-determined rookie offers. If the game just had a check to make sure that rookies only signed deals that fit one of those four offers then there would be no 'bug'. The cheat attempt would then result in a declined contract by the rookie.

VPI97

10-12-2005, 05:06 PM

Yes, I have confronted him. Haven't really gotten a straight answer yet but I will keep you posted.
It's a blatant attempt at cheating. He didn't 'accidentally' screw your league. He should be dumped from all his leagues immediately.

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 05:10 PM

And, FWIW, I would never accept unsecure software if there is, for instance, money involved. But, since FOF is just fun for me, I figure that I can leave if I ever feel that I am getting cheated.

Funny you should say that. If I'm not mistaken, one of the leagues this GMac is in, the DFL, is a pay league.

stevew

10-12-2005, 05:14 PM

This cheat sounds like it would also work on Franchised Players. Since they are on a 1 year deal with no bonus, they could conceivable be cut during FA2 and resigned at a fraction of what they would be asking if you were to renegotiate their franchise contract. Can somebody verify this?
San Diego QB Aurthur Beckstein(Brees) is on a one year franchise contract for 6.62 million. he wants

8.24 bonus

Salaries of
910
4.3
5.4
6.7
7.9
9.1

I decide to be ultra sneaky, and do this renegotiation before the last stage of second FA.

His demands are
5.64 bonus
560k
2.3
2.9
3.6
4.2
4.8

But Brees does not sign the new contract, and it reverts to his franchised value, despite my attempt to cheat.

stevew

10-12-2005, 05:15 PM

Ahh. . . the Joey Allen special :)

I agree that it is not realistic, but since everyone is on the same page with it, and it is the game working as designed, I have very little problem with it.
I think its a flaw though, its cool if some dont, though.

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 05:30 PM

I think its a flaw though, its cool if some dont, though.

And holdouts aren't helping at all?

Joe

10-12-2005, 06:01 PM

I would LOVE to hear this dude's explanation.

yabanci

10-12-2005, 06:55 PM

I would LOVE to hear this dude's explanation.

probably the inevitable, "well, the rules are silent on this issue."

Chubby

10-12-2005, 07:04 PM

probably the inevitable, "well, the rules are silent on this issue."ummm, what the guy is doing is clearly cheating.

stevew

10-12-2005, 07:16 PM

And holdouts aren't helping at all?
How many holdouts are you actually seeing? I think it could go up like 10 fold, and then it might work its way out better.

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 07:24 PM

How many holdouts are you actually seeing? I think it could go up like 10 fold, and then it might work its way out better.

I'm asking, because I really don't know. One of the leagues I'm in runs at a snail's pace, the other is just finishing up it's first season.

stevew

10-12-2005, 07:27 PM

I think that there were maybe like 10 hold outs in the last wigFL offseason, maybe less? I'll pay more attention next year.

stevew

10-12-2005, 07:32 PM

dola, if that, maybe more like 5-6. I would think the NFL number, if you include guys that bitch about their contract, threaten to hold out, but still show up to camp "for the good of the team" would have to be closer to 20-30 league wide? Easily?

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 11:01 PM

Come one, WrongWay. You could've shared this with us over here.

The only thing I don't understand about that thread is everyone calling for the death penalty. I am sorry but I see this kind of cheating all the time in sports and 99.99% of the time the league does not give out the death penalty.

Last time I checked the Denver Broncos were still part of the NFL. Even though their Owner, Pat Bowlin, and their Superstar player, John Elway, conspired to beat the NFL's salary cap.

In Nascar you see a team get busted for having illegal parts on their cars about every other month.

Baseball, besides steroids, what about corked bats? Last time I checked Sammy Sosa was still playing.

And, I will not even get into the NCAA, unless you really want to see those Ivy League schools competing against Military Academies for the national championship.

So, why should we expect to see anything different in out on line leagues? I just can't believe that everyone in that thread is acting so shocked that this would happen and calling for an immediate death penalty.

http://fastfl04.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1129128755

Chubby

10-12-2005, 11:03 PM

and when caught they should accept a fair penalty. the fair penalty is expulsion and being black listed in MP leagues IMO.

VPI97

10-12-2005, 11:20 PM

and when caught they should accept a fair penalty. the fair penalty is expulsion and being black listed in MP leagues IMO.Yep. Cheating in an online league is a indicator of very low character. I'd question the leadership of any league that allowed someone with that type of morals to stay as an active member.

Chubby

10-12-2005, 11:22 PM

Yep. Cheating in an online league is a indicator of very low character. I'd question the leadership of any league that allowed someone with that type of morals to stay as an active member.
especially in an instance here where there is no "gray" area, it's clearly cheating.

Dutch

10-12-2005, 11:29 PM

Funny you should say that. If I'm not mistaken, one of the leagues this GMac is in, the DFL, is a pay league.

:eek:

People pay money to play with this dude??? Oh man...

WrongWay

10-12-2005, 11:36 PM

Come one, WrongWay. You could've shared this with us over here.

http://fastfl04.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1129128755
I stand behind these statements.

Like all sports in real life there are other punishments than the death penalty. This cheat has that Nascar feel where they "accidentally" run with an illegal part. You know total B.S. to say "Oops" but they try anyway.

Or, maybe more like Sammy Sosa; Do you think Sammy Sosa should of been thrown out of baseball forever for using a corked bat?

sovereignstar

10-12-2005, 11:43 PM

I stand behind these statements.

Like all sports in real life there are other punishments than the death penalty. This cheat has that Nascar feel where they "accidentally" run with an illegal part. You know total B.S. to say "Oops" but they try anyway.

Or, maybe more like Sammy Sosa; Do you think Sammy Sosa should of been thrown out of baseball forever for using a corked bat?

Dude, what you're saying it totally fucked up. You're comparing professional sports with what is supposed to be a recreational game.

You know what? I don't even want to debate this cause it's so totally ridiculous.

WrongWay

10-12-2005, 11:55 PM

Really, cause every MP league out there is trying its best to simulate the real world as close as possible. And handing out the death penalty for every punishment just does not happen in the real world.

Does it?

WrongWay

10-12-2005, 11:57 PM

Dude, what you're saying it totally fucked up. You're comparing professional sports with what is supposed to be a recreational game.
You mean in activities that do not involve money....Say like the Olympics? Or, hell how about Little League Baseball?

VPI97

10-12-2005, 11:59 PM

Really, cause every MP league out there is trying its best to simulate the real world as close as possible. And handing out the death penalty for every punishment just does do happen in the real world.

Does it?Death penalty for blatant cheating? Yes...see SMU in the mid 80's.

sovereignstar

10-13-2005, 12:00 AM

You mean in activities that do not involve money....Say like the Olympics? Or, hell how about Little League Baseball?

What are you on? Cos' I sure as hell would like some. I would like to be so fucked up tonight that I would be comparing Solecismic's Front Office Football with such things.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 12:12 AM

What are you on? Cos' I sure as hell would like some. I would like to be so fucked up tonight that I would be comparing Solecismic's Front Office Football with such things.
I probably just take my little FOF Team a little more serious than I should.

GoldenEagle

10-13-2005, 12:13 AM

I am 99% sure this guy applied for a spot in the CFL.

I have so much cap room in the CFL, everyone probably thinks I cheat.

PackerFanatic

10-13-2005, 12:33 AM

As I said in response to WrongWay's post in the FastFL forum, It's the fact that everyone knows this is for fun and when someone blatanty makes it un-fun for other players, they should be punished.

Chubby

10-13-2005, 12:38 AM

I probably just take my little FOF Team a little more serious than I should.
at least make a correct comparsion if you want to compare things...

this is akin to a team sneaking into another teams offices, cutting a player, then signing him for themselves at the vet minimum.

puh-lease, this does not happen in real life.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 12:44 AM

PackerFanatic

10-13-2005, 12:45 AM

Chubby

10-13-2005, 12:53 AM

What about comparing this to say cheating on your golf game? Not a PGA game, just you and 3 buddies out for a saturday round?

A mulligan?
A better lie?
A 5 instead of a 7?
Hitting the ball from out of bounds?
The maximum Ball limit?

I have to admit that I contiune to play with some cheaters AND I sometimes bend the rules myslef.
so I guess I'll be the ass and come out and say what other's are probably thinking.

you're gmac right?

I mean, giving me a fucking break. This isn't some minor bending of the rules going on. You seem hellbent in portraying this as some minor thing when it's a clear and deliberate attempt to blatantly cheat. Like I said, you show me an NFL team that goes releases a player from another team and then signs them for themselves before anyone else gets a chance (or something similar) and we'll talk.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 12:54 AM

This isn't simply bending the rules though. The only way he could have done this was by going into commissioner mode and simming that way. You honestly want a guy in our league that does that? I really hope that no one else is doing it....
I know this is as bad as bad can get and ranks right up their with some kind of Code Hack. But, no I don't think you should just immediately throw the death penalty at him without first hearing his side of the Story.

I do however hope that you and Rails hit him with a hard enough penalty to set an example for the rest of the league about cheating.

MrBigglesworth

10-13-2005, 12:57 AM

I see wrongway's point, in Imperial one player had some questionable contracts, and in the SFL one player blatently went over the cap for a season in a way that was deemed unfair. Both teams received minor penalties, took their medicine, and are still viable members of the league. But I think what this guy did is clearly outside of the game mechanics and can in no way be construed as an honest mistake. Moreover, he knows he is guilty, because he made the bonus fit in with the rest around him to avoid undue attention.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 12:57 AM

so I guess I'll be the ass and come out and say what other's are probably thinking.

you're gmac right?

I don't understand your example. I compared this to the Denver/Elway situation where they entered into an illegal agreement so they could cheat the NFL's salary cap.

And, actually, I am the Whistle Blower on this one.

Chubby

10-13-2005, 01:00 AM

I don't understand your example. I compared this to the Denver/Elway situation where they entered into an illegal agreement so they could cheat the NFL's salary cap.

And, actually, I am the Whistle Blower on this one.
well it's a little impossible to kick a team out of the NFL now isn't it? so try again.

yet you seem to think a slap on the wrist for something this major is fine. mindboggling.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 01:06 AM

well it's a little impossible to kick a team out of the NFL now isn't it? so try again.

yet you seem to think a slap on the wrist for something this major is fine. mindboggling.
Seems I remember MLB kicking an owner out? Marge Schott?

I have not said anything about punishment, except I haope the rules committe throws the book at him.

Nwobhm

10-13-2005, 01:18 AM

There's 20 AI controlled teams in the FastFL currently.. perhaps they just need to keep him for the league's sake?

RailsFS

10-13-2005, 01:28 AM

There's 20 AI controlled teams in the FastFL currently.. perhaps they just need to keep him for the league's sake?
Numbers-wise, we should keep him. My ethics/morals (whatever you want to call them) tell me not to keep him, however. The real question is: Is there a fair way to punish him, other than removing him from the league. The word fair I'm sure means different things to different people. GMac's idea of fair is probably different from say, most of the members on this board. I personally have been unable to come up with a punishment that seems fair to me, other than removal from the league. This matter will be handled very soon, I can assure you.

The league's number of participants has been an issue since our original commisioner decided to quit without notifying the league. We once were about 90% full, but many decided to quit the league after that show of instability. Thankfully, Packrat stepped up and got the league going again. Our league is the closest thing out there to a SP paced league (that being it's main draw), and it will keep on going whether or not GMac is a part of it. We can, and have, made due with less owners. So losing one owner is not much of an issue here.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 01:31 AM

Like I said, you show me an NFL team that goes releases a player from another team and then signs them for themselves before anyone else gets a chance (or something similar) and we'll talk.
This example right here would be grounds for a Death Penalty as you have an owner cheating another owner out of a player in order to better his team.

Getting back to the actual foul, you have an owner cheating one of his own players out of his base salary. No other owners in this league were directly harmed by this action. And, I bet this contract currently complies with the FFL's 66% bonus rule.

There is a difference between trying to cheat the Salary Cap and trying to cheat an Owner.

BTW-- I think if Both Rookies have their salaries renogiated next year for exactly what the computer is asking and the team loses their 1st round pick in the draft that would be a fair punishment.

Chubby

10-13-2005, 01:34 AM

Seems I remember MLB kicking an owner out? Marge Schott?

I have not said anything about punishment, except I haope the rules committe throws the book at him.
no, you have said you don't think it's fair to give him the death penalty.

so now you're comparing it to someone spouting off about nazis. you're all over the board, it's comical, really.

clearly you are on another planet on this.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 01:43 AM

Chubby, once again I will have to say I don't understand. I was answering your question about it being impossible to kick a team out of the NFL. It may be impossible to kick a team out, but it is possible to kick an owner out.

I was not comparing what Pat Bowlin and the Denver Broncos did to what Marge Schott did. I was just showing that a league can kick an owner out.

BTW I think I am incorrect because Marge Schott was just suspended right? Or maybe is was one of those crazy Life-Time Bans, which means you can come back in a couple of years.

MrBigglesworth

10-13-2005, 02:04 AM

Numbers-wise, we should keep him. My ethics/morals (whatever you want to call them) tell me not to keep him, however. The real question is: Is there a fair way to punish him, other than removing him from the league. The word fair I'm sure means different things to different people. GMac's idea of fair is probably different from say, most of the members on this board. I personally have been unable to come up with a punishment that seems fair to me, other than removal from the league. This matter will be handled very soon, I can assure you.

The league's number of participants has been an issue since our original commisioner decided to quit without notifying the league. We once were about 90% full, but many decided to quit the league after that show of instability. Thankfully, Packrat stepped up and got the league going again. Our league is the closest thing out there to a SP paced league (that being it's main draw), and it will keep on going whether or not GMac is a part of it. We can, and have, made due with less owners. So losing one owner is not much of an issue here.
My guess is, you won't have to worry about it. He's logged in since the commissioner tried to contact him, and since the thread was posted on the FastFL board (btw, I don't think whoever did that should have done that, it should have been dealt with by members of the league). You may never hear from him again, he'll just be another guy signing up for a league somewhere under a different name. Make a note of his IP.

Alf

10-13-2005, 04:19 AM

my point here : some guys are morons and I don't want to play with them. It is either them being sumped out of the league, or I quit. This is a game, and I play games for fun. I don't want to play with morons.

Darkiller

10-13-2005, 04:27 AM

I'm amazed someone would do that...
There is no question that he cheated on purpose so he has to be kicked off of his leagues.

As a matter of fact, I don't even see the point in Jim fixing that issue because if a guy wants to cheat, well...he cheats and he is stupid.
Playing online leagues is great fun and if the guy feels he can have more fun by cheating on the other owners then there is nothing much you can do for that.

cthomer5000

10-13-2005, 06:03 AM

I'm just starting to look through some of his other leagues. I'm not able to look at previous seasons for the PFL as they don't have their league files archived on the site (and they haven't done the draft yet this season), but this guy is a real piece of work as far as I can tell.

http://the-dkbl.com/gmacequalsdumbass.jpg

There's some seriously frightening stuff in this thread (stuff i had no freakin' idea was possible, but i wouldn't say this contract is necessarily a red flag. In general you can get a player to accept a contract of significantly lower overall value if you really pump up the bonus dollars. It's a realistic tradeof too, IMHO.

Still, if someone can hack their way in as commish, it would mean they could keep re-running stages until they found the exact breaking point for contracts, meaning they would never need to spend a penny more than necessary on any player.

Again, some scary, scary stuff in here. I was oblivious to the fact that this was possible. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

Joe

10-13-2005, 06:37 AM

This example right here would be grounds for a Death Penalty as you have an owner cheating another owner out of a player in order to better his team.

Getting back to the actual foul, you have an owner cheating one of his own players out of his base salary. No other owners in this league were directly harmed by this action. And, I bet this contract currently complies with the FFL's 66% bonus rule.

There is a difference between trying to cheat the Salary Cap and trying to cheat an Owner.

BTW-- I think if Both Rookies have their salaries renogiated next year for exactly what the computer is asking and the team loses their 1st round pick in the draft that would be a fair punishment.

You don't think that by cheating the salary cap he was cheating the other owners who play by the rules? What about the additional free agents he was probably able to bring in due to his paying less for rookies than he should have been able to? Shit, he probably did this the season he won the championship in that league.

Bee

10-13-2005, 06:56 AM

I don't even see how people can consider this an issue as to whether or not he should be kicked out. If I were in the league and he wasn't gone, I'd be sending in my resignation to the league. There's too many leagues out there to deal with this kind of crap.

Blackadar

10-13-2005, 07:03 AM

We're not talking about using an AI exploit. We're talking about blatent cheating.

It's been shown before. If he'll cheat once, he'll cheat again. And he has. The dickless weenie should be kicked out of all leagues forever.

Samdari

10-13-2005, 07:07 AM

Still, if someone can hack their way in as commish, it would mean they could keep re-running stages until they found the exact breaking point for contracts, meaning they would never need to spend a penny more than necessary on any player.

Its not exactly hacking Corey - its pretty easy to start a game as a commish and as a team on the same machine (don't many leagues have an owner as commish). I think many of us did this in the early days of FOF2k4's release, before any leagues really started, being curious about the mechanics of multiplayer. Didn't you do this yourself, testing how the draft sliders worked?

stevew

10-13-2005, 07:10 AM

Man, i cant believe that someone sat at their desk and figured out how to do something like this, to basically invent a cheat. Once it cheat was out there, it wasnt hard to replicate....I guess i just cant see doing something like this to save a few million dollars over a few years. Wow.

jeff061

10-13-2005, 07:19 AM

Remind me not to play in any league that WrongWay has any authority in. This is a no brainer, I'd quit my league if someone did this and wasn't kicked out immediatly. There is no explanation or excuse.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 07:24 AM

Remind me not to play in any league that WrongWay has any authority in.
Your in luck, because I do not have authority in any leagues, nor do I want it. I guess I am just to easy on people.

But, you really believe that the NFL should of kicked both John Elway and PAt Bowlin out of football for trying to cheat the Salary Cap?

jeff061

10-13-2005, 07:27 AM

I really don't care what the NFL would do. It has nothing to do with this.

stevew

10-13-2005, 07:32 AM

This has nothing to do with the NFL. What it has to do with is some dork who exploited a piece of code in a video game for his own personal gain. He's a douchebag, plain and simple.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 07:35 AM

BTW it is not "cheating".

The NFL calls it "salary cap circumvention" :D

gottimd

10-13-2005, 07:44 AM

It doesn't matter what the NFL says it is. The NFL is real life. This is just a sim game. The comparison should be made to other games, where people are competing for fun, on the basis that they are all competing on the same level and no one has an advantage.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 07:47 AM

WSUCougar

10-13-2005, 07:53 AM

sovereignstar

10-13-2005, 08:20 AM

There's some seriously frightening stuff in this thread (stuff i had no freakin' idea was possible, but i wouldn't say this contract is necessarily a red flag. In general you can get a player to accept a contract of significantly lower overall value if you really pump up the bonus dollars. It's a realistic tradeof too, IMHO.

Were you skimming this thread?

wade moore

10-13-2005, 08:32 AM

I am 99% sure this guy applied for a spot in the CFL.

I have so much cap room in the CFL, everyone probably thinks I cheat.
No, we just think you stink :p

A-Husker-4-Life

10-13-2005, 08:35 AM

I am 99% sure this guy applied for a spot in the CFL.

I have so much cap room in the CFL, everyone probably thinks I cheat.

Thank the lord he's not part of the CFL, we dodged a bullet with this shady character... Oh and BTW we don't think you cheat GE, we just think you're cheap. ;)

Blackadar

10-13-2005, 08:36 AM

Your in luck, because I do not have authority in any leagues, nor do I want it. I guess I am just to easy on people.

But, you really believe that the NFL should of kicked both John Elway and PAt Bowlin out of football for trying to cheat the Salary Cap?

WW, your point makes no sense. The NFL is goverened not just by bylaws, but by real legal preceedents, legal standings, negotiated labor deals, contracts and also has to consider image, money, TV contracts and so on and so forth. The sums of money are vast. They just can't kick out Pat Bowlin for trying to circumnavigate the salary cap. They'd get sued out the ass - and rightfully so.

An online league contains none of that. It's just a gentlemen's agreement to follow the rules. This loser purposely and deliberately broke those rules in an effort to improve his team. There's no mistake about it and no excuse for it. He should be instantly banned from all his teams and his IP noted so that he never gets another chance to play with anyone again.

If you won't understand the difference between the NFL and a simple online FOF league, then you're being purposely obtuse. If you can't understand the difference, then you're just an idiot.

QuikSand

10-13-2005, 08:37 AM

Still, if someone can hack their way in as commish, it would mean they could keep re-running stages until they found the exact breaking point for contracts, meaning they would never need to spend a penny more than necessary on any player.

This, to me, is a pretty big deal -- and regrettably is probably something that can't be easily caught by members of an ordinary online league. Very worrisome.

The best thing you can do is pick your colleagues well, I guess. To the extent you control that.

Raiders Army

10-13-2005, 09:38 AM

Makes me glad I play SP only. I did dabble in the HFL for a season, but didn't have the time to keep it up.

PackerFanatic

10-13-2005, 09:43 AM

There's 20 AI controlled teams in the FastFL currently.. perhaps they just need to keep him for the league's sake?

If only it were that easy.

Plain and simple, no matter HOW many computer teams we had, I could not, in my right mind, keep a blantant cheater on board with us. Yes, it hurts to lose a valued member of our league, one that has been around just as long as I have, but I cannot have a member in my league that is making things unfun for the rest of the league. You may think its harsh, you may think its rash, but my balls are on the bandsaw right now, there is no other punishment that can be handed out here.

On that note, if anyone wants to join the FastFL, we have plenty of openings :)

We put up with no shit :)

QuikSand

10-13-2005, 09:45 AM

GoldenEagle

10-13-2005, 09:52 AM

No, we just think you stink :p
Memphis: 4-3
Tampa Bay: 1-5

Memphis record all time vs. Tampa Bay: 3-0

Enough said. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

wade moore

10-13-2005, 09:59 AM

Memphis: 4-3
Tampa Bay: 1-5

Memphis record all time vs. Tampa Bay: 3-0

Enough said. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
Never said I didn't stink more... :D

twothree

10-13-2005, 09:59 AM

Looks like the offending FastFL team owner has jumped before he was (possibly) pushed. But he did suggest that it's been a prevalent cheat in that league and others.

I don't know how one goes back to check for this sort of thing... but I know if I were in a league with the likely candidates, I'd be looking for a way... and preparing my post in the "league openings" thread here.

Taken from the FastFL board, GMac's reply:

I wasn't in hiding, I've been on the boards checking on what's going happen. When I made the move I didn't think I was cheating, I've seen it happen in this league and others, in fact that's how I saw how it was done.

If I wanted to cheat there are a lot less obvious ways to do it and as I said to the Commish, I don't see a point in cheating in a league that is just for fun. Obviously though, after reading just the first part of that thread, everyone else feels very strongly that I have in fact cheated and I can understand why.

But my reasoning is this, he is my player on my roster, I hate the way the Rookie contracts are structured. If you notice, all my players have similarly structured contracts.

There is very little benefit on my part for doing it, I save a bit of money toward the end of the contract, but I have to pay a lot more the first couple of seasons, plus I am locked into the guy for the length of the contract, even if he turns into a bust. The only benefit I receive is a lower salary at the end of the contract...which I paid for at the beginning of the contract.

No matter what the Commish decides, I think I will have to resign. Which is really hard to do, considering how much time I have put in this league and how much fun I have here. I really hope the league starts to prosper again and good luck to everybody, in the game and in life. I've had fun and hope everybody else continues to do so.

GMac

Unreal.

PackerFanatic

10-13-2005, 10:02 AM

Heh, I don't have to do anything, everyone is doing it for me!

Blackadar

10-13-2005, 10:02 AM

If you believe him, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

gottimd

10-13-2005, 10:03 AM

If you believe him, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
You do? How much? I'll make you an offer.....the tea in china....thats right...ALL OF IT!

QuikSand

10-13-2005, 10:04 AM

When I logged in as the commissioner, made front office moves from that position (for which I am clearly not authorized) saved those changes and then made changes for my own team giving my team a multi-year, multi-million dollar benefit in a league with no injuries...I didn't think I was cheating.

Touched that up a bit for him.

Eaglesfan27

10-13-2005, 10:04 AM

I'm concerned about the comment about this happening in other leagues. Hopefully, there aren't other cheaters doing this.

PackerFanatic

10-13-2005, 10:05 AM

Haha, reminds me of Family Guy.

*protest for Free Tibet*

Peter: "I'll take it! *grabs phone* China, I have something you may want, but it'll cost you. Yes...allll the tea..."

Anthony

10-13-2005, 10:06 AM

doesn't sound like a scumbag to me. in fact, cheating or not, i see where he's coming from - the only thing he does is save money towards the end of the contract. otherwise he and that player are married to each other, bust or not, for the entire length of the contract. i don't condone what he did, nor do i care since i'm not in that league, he just doesn't come off sounding like a prick.

there *are* a lot of limitations in FOF, i'll agree with that. all rookie contracts are cookie cutter, even when you factor in voidable years. there isn't a lot of room to get creative with rookie contracts. again, not condoning what the guy did. it seems this is simply a matter of giving a ticket to the guy you caught speeding, even though there are/were others going just as fast. i would guess this "cheat" is employed by others, if one person can think it you have to assume then many people have been doing it. i've come across several people who've been all too willing to push the boundary of the game. again, this is a matter of gmac was the one who got caught.

gottimd

10-13-2005, 10:07 AM

I'm concerned about the comment about this happening in other leagues. Hopefully, there aren't other cheaters doing this.
Well I am sure with this out there now, GM's and Commishs will be looking at this very closely now. We just finished our draft in the NAFL, and its time Rookie Contract signing.

Raiders Army

10-13-2005, 10:09 AM

doesn't sound like a scumbag to me. in fact, cheating or not, i see where he's coming from - the only thing he does is save money towards the end of the contract. otherwise he and that player are married to each other, bust or not, for the entire length of the contract. i don't condone what he did, nor do i care since i'm not in that league, he just doesn't come off sounding like a prick.

there *are* a lot of limitations in FOF, i'll agree with that. all rookie contracts are cookie cutter, even when you factor in voidable years. there isn't a lot of room to get creative with rookie contracts. again, not condoning what the guy did. it seems this is simply a matter of giving a ticket to the guy you caught speeding, even though there are/were others going just as fast. this "cheat" is imployed by others, i'm positive. i've come across several people who've been all too willing to push the boundary of the game. again, this is a matter of gmac was the one who got caught.
Strangely, this thread and this thread have converged:

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=43542

QuikSand

10-13-2005, 10:09 AM

Well I am sure with this out there now, GM's and Commishs will be looking at this very closely now. We just finished our draft in the NAFL, and its time Rookie Contract signing.

And, hopefully, some looks will be given to past year transaction logs... any league where this guy and his mentor(s) have played certainly seems suspect to me. Wouldn't surprise me to find this cheat being used before without notice.

Raiders Army

10-13-2005, 10:10 AM

And, hopefully, some looks will be given to past year transaction logs... any league where this guy and his mentor(s) have played certainly seems suspect to me. Wouldn't surprise me to find this cheat being used before without notice.
So his mentors advanced his green and red bars, eh?

JasonC23

10-13-2005, 10:10 AM

So, basically, GMac's defense is that he doesn't like how the game does rookie contracts?

Cuckoo

10-13-2005, 10:14 AM

Well I am sure with this out there now, GM's and Commishs will be looking at this very closely now. We just finished our draft in the NAFL, and its time Rookie Contract signing.

Yep. And from his response, perhaps I need to go alter our league rules to point out that you cannot CHEAT just to make sure it's clear. Hopefully, people in the NAFL are a little smarter than this guy.

sovereignstar

10-13-2005, 10:15 AM

I for one would like his IP Address (or addresses), so I can forward it to anyone concerned. PackerFanatic, if you don't feel right about posting it publically, a PM will do.

Cuckoo

10-13-2005, 10:16 AM

Make a note of his IP.

Yes please.

Cuckoo

10-13-2005, 10:16 AM

I for one would like his IP Address (or addresses), so I can forward it to anyone concerned. PackerFanatic, if you don't feel right about posting it publically, a PM will do.

You posted this at the exact same time as me. Ditto on this for me; PM will do just fine.

QuikSand

10-13-2005, 10:17 AM

Just for the record - from the screen shot earlier in this thread, it seems that this cheat saved the team about $13 million, compared to what his "slotted" contract likely would have been. Not exactly small potatoes, especially in a league where there are no injuries (and therefore even less risk of that player's bonus being dead weight down the road).

I do find this interesting, though:

If I wanted to cheat there are a lot less obvious ways to do it

Coming from a guy who clearly has given this some pretty extensive thought... that's a bit worrisome.

Anthony

10-13-2005, 10:21 AM

Yep. And from his response, perhaps I need to go alter our league rules to point out that you cannot CHEAT just to make sure it's clear. Hopefully, people in the NAFL are a little smarter than this guy.

it probably wouldn't hurt, either, to be more descriptive in what you deem to be "cheating". i've seen some people who think something *isn't* cheating if it's not in the league Constitution.

these leagues are for fun, really, and it sucks to have to have a law degree to draft an airtight constitution to erase loop holes, but the fact remains it doesn't take a lot to have people with different ideas as to what is fair play and what is illegal in order to have an unsavory situation. there'll always be people willing to see just how far over the line they can go, always willing to see what the limits are of a game. to them it's doing research/testing/gaining a competitive edge. to some it's cheating. to others it's blatant cheating. i think all you can hope to do is try to have something concrete in place that says what happens when obvious cheating occurs, so that there's no misunderstanding.

jeff061

10-13-2005, 10:24 AM

Is there really that much uncertainty around opening up a game in Commish mode to change things when you are not the commish and then export a file based on these changes?

If you have trouble categorizing that as cheating you are, to borrow from Blacky, obtuse or an idiot.

gstelmack

10-13-2005, 10:31 AM

I don't know how one goes back to check for this sort of thing... but I know if I were in a league with the likely candidates, I'd be looking for a way... and preparing my post in the "league openings" thread here.
It's POSSIBLE I could use the stuff I've got rolling in FOFInterrogator to help detect this. Basically flag any transaction on a rookie that was drafted that wasn't "Signed his rookie contract". Commishes could then review these to determine if they are legit or not. Could check for re-signings by the original team, etc.

Blackadar

10-13-2005, 10:31 AM

Anthony

10-13-2005, 10:35 AM

i don't think it's that glaring of a problem in a league that plays with no injuries. i mean, if realism was what they were going for i don't think they'd be crowing a champion once a month. cheating sucks, but it happens. the only thing that gets wasted is people's faith in the integrity of the league and perhaps time (if they're really mad and walk away). there is cheating in real life - steroids, anyone - that don't have the lynchmob that you see when someone cheats in a league with fake players and no real financial investment on the part of the owners. if having faith in your fellow owners is that important to some, many would be playing with friends and family. i don't know anyone here personally, sure, some people post in a manner that makes it easy to assume if they're honest, law abiding people. i'm sure BTK was a very nice person also. all we have, especially in elite league, to go off of is the qualty of people's posts in an anonymous message board to make a judgement on someone's character.

people get up in arms, worked up in a frenzy, even, over cheating in an online game where there is no password protection or prevention of any kind. that's rather silly. i don't play in any league where i don't have faith in my commish - the one holding the keys is the only one that matters. i don't get surprised anymore when a fellow league owner is found to be cheating/pushing the limits of ethics, because, to go back to my earlier point - i don't know any of you from a stranger standing on my street corner. if cheating meant this much to most of you (and don't get me wrong, i don't condone cheating) there'd be a bigger outcry for password protection - faith in fellow owners or not.

Anthony

10-13-2005, 10:41 AM

HA is the latter. Of course, he did his best to try and bend the rules at IHOF and I wasn't sorry to see him go.

YOU FUCKING MOTHERFUCKER. YOUR WIFE IS A DIRTY WHORE.

you tell me on what basis you make this claim. you tell me where you get this statement from, anything i've done in that league where people, at any point in time over at IHOF called into question anything i've done.

at no point in time have i ever even considered bending any rules. for you to make this claim you are a fucking bastard. i will say a prayer tonite to God to bring disease and bad fortune on you and your family. may you all die slow deaths. i live in Whitestone NY, 20th Avenue. 11357. i work on 23rd st and Park Ave in Manhattan. at any point in time you want to defend the honor of your family you can PM me and i'll let you know what time to meet. when i beat the shit out of you i'll have someone video taping it, and i'll pull out my penis and urinate on you. then i'll post it online. i assure you of this.

this goes out to anyone who wants to insinuate i've ever been a "rule bender" or "cheater".

Blackadar

10-13-2005, 10:43 AM

YOU FUCKING MOTHERFUCKER. YOUR WIFE IS A DIRTY WHORE.

you tell me on what basis you make this claim. you tell me where you get this statement from, anything i've done in that league where people, at any point in time over at IHOF called into question anything i've done.

at no point in time have i ever even considered bending any rules. for you to make this claim you are a fucking bastard. i will say a prayer tonite to God to bring disease and bad fortune on you and your family. may you all die slow deaths. i live in Whitestone NY, 20th Avenue. 11357. i work on 23rd st and Park Ave in Manhattan. at any point in time you want to defend the honor of your family you can PM me and i'll let you know what time to meet. when i beat the shit out of you i'll have someone video taping it, and i'll pull out my penis and urinate on you. then i'll post it online. i assure you of this.

this goes out to anyone who wants to insinuate i've ever been a "rule bender" or "cheater".

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

You couldn't beat the shit out of a 5 year old. Go back to spanking your eweenie.

digamma

10-13-2005, 10:44 AM

I love a good internet "you're not man enough and I'll kick your ass" threat.

Been a week or ten days since we've had one of those.

Anthony

10-13-2005, 10:47 AM

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

You couldn't beat the shit out of a 5 year old. Go back to spanking your eweenie.

you were found guilty of cheating in IHOF as well, so i don't blame you for trying to dirty the names of others. misery loves company.

any time you like, there's an open invitation to NYC.

John Galt

10-13-2005, 10:49 AM

John Galt

10-13-2005, 10:50 AM

Blackadar

10-13-2005, 10:50 AM

you were found guilty of cheating in IHOF as well, so i don't blame you for trying to dirty the names of others. misery loves company.

any time you like, there's an open invitation to NYC.

If that were the case, I guess I wouldn't be there. I am, you're not. Have a nice day.

It's funny that you've been baiting me for months and I haven't responded, but someone digs up some history on you and you can't take it.

As Bugs Bunny would say, "what a maroon".

I AM enjoying my laugh at you.

Fonzie

10-13-2005, 10:51 AM

*grabs popcorn*

cthomer5000

10-13-2005, 10:52 AM

Didn't you do this yourself, testing how the draft sliders worked?
No, i did that in single player, starting a league with a preference draft.

cuervo72

10-13-2005, 10:52 AM

You couldn't beat the shit out of a 5 year old.

Hey, now that's a completely different thread altogether.

(and I'm sure God puts prayers for disease and bad fortune right at the top of his to do list)

Raiders Army

10-13-2005, 10:52 AM

He said eweenie. Heh heh.

Passacaglia

10-13-2005, 10:53 AM

Hey, I'll be in NYC this weekend! You guys want me to be the cameraman?

digamma

10-13-2005, 10:54 AM

WTF? Not that HA's reaction wasn't a tad over the top, but what are you talking about Blackie? It seems kind of random in this thread to just lay into HA and imply (but not explain why) that HA is a cheater. I don't know anything about IHOF and the history of cheating (other than the early Chubby actions), but your comments seem a little odd in this setting.
It is a bit strange that, on average (by my unscientific measurement), approximately two out of three "you're not man enough and I'm going to kick your ass" threads involve Blackie.

Subby

10-13-2005, 10:54 AM

That IHOF is so fucked up. :D

cthomer5000

10-13-2005, 10:54 AM

Were you skimming this thread?
I didn't get the impression that it was a rookie-contract you posted there. Obviously the guy has cheated beyond belief, my point was that that single contract wasn't obviously ridiculous (to me). There is a ton of bonus money there.

Anthony

10-13-2005, 10:54 AM

Now I feel like I really missed something. What were you all doing in IHOF that was cheating?

sorry John, i decided if the rule of the day would be to randomly call people "cheaters" then i would follow suit. if one tries to dirty my name, i try to shit on theirs.

i understand this is just the internet, and these leagues are all fake, but what is real is someone's integrity, ethics and reputation. those are real, and one must do what they can to uphold them, and defend them, if necessary, if one tries to maliciously dirty them. i'm angered immensely now over something as silly as an online league.

Raiders Army

10-13-2005, 10:56 AM

And he talked about your eweenie.

Anthony

10-13-2005, 10:56 AM

I didn't get the impression that it was a rookie-contract you posted there. Obviously the guy has cheated beyond belief, my point was that that single contract wasn't obviously ridiculous (to me). There is a ton of bonus money there.

i hate to agree with you, but i do. that contract didn't seem blatantly outrageous, in light of all the bonus money that will be paid over the course of that contract.

cuervo72

10-13-2005, 10:56 AM

I want Blackadar's wife to get AIDS.

We're really reaching new heights now.

PackerFanatic

10-13-2005, 10:57 AM

lol...wow how this thread exploded.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 10:57 AM

Backed the wrong horse on this one didn't I.

Damn, I was expecting some sort of apology. Not a justification for his cheating.

Bee

10-13-2005, 10:57 AM

Anthony

10-13-2005, 10:57 AM

And he talked about your eweenie.

he can talk about it all he wants, it's his wife's opinion on my weenie that i care about.

Raiders Army

10-13-2005, 10:58 AM

33 users viewing this thread. Beats the Blacky's thread about Jim's new game to shame, eh?

jeff061

10-13-2005, 10:58 AM

Don't you need integrity and ethics in order for them to be slandered?

Raiders Army

10-13-2005, 10:58 AM

he can talk about it all he wants, it's his wife's opinion on my weenie that i care about.
but what about her evagina? Would that make a difference?

John Galt

10-13-2005, 10:59 AM

Subby

10-13-2005, 11:00 AM

Well at least there will be a silver lining to this thread after all!!!

jeff061

10-13-2005, 11:00 AM

I think the only people getting boxed should be the people hitting report post and HA.

PackerFanatic

10-13-2005, 11:01 AM

Backed the wrong horse on this one didn't I.

Damn, I was expecting some sort of apology. Not a justification for his cheating.

I thought so too, man, but hey, he can do what he wants. It will be a while before he plays in any MP FOF leagues I think.

PackerFanatic

10-13-2005, 11:02 AM

35 users watching and still growing...lol...

PackerFanatic

10-13-2005, 11:02 AM

Huzzah, I have eclipsed 200 posts. I rock.

Samdari

10-13-2005, 11:04 AM

Is there really that much uncertainty around opening up a game in Commish mode to change things when you are not the commish and then export a file based on these changes?

Some people consider anything to be not specifically outlawed in the rules to be implicitly legal, an attidtude I heard reflected over at IHOF, where everyone seems to be trusted implicitly.

One thing I found out over there is that there is a lot of variation - even among reasonable, non-cheaters, is that there is a good bit of variation in thinking of what fair play constitutes and what the expectation and definition of gentlemanly conduct should be.

It would not surprise me to find people who considered opening the game file as commish to not only be not cheating, but who expect it as par for the course. Same with simming ahead to see how a game plan would fare against a future opponent - some would see that as SOP, not cheating.

This seems pretty much clear cut case to me, but I am not surprised that someone claims they did not think it was cheating. I would not even be surprised if they thought simming ahead was not.

EDIT: Sorry to post on topic - I did not realize the thread had devolved. I have GOT to stop responding to a mid-thread post without reading the rest of the thread.

WrongWay

10-13-2005, 11:05 AM

I thought so too, man, but hey, he can do what he wants. It will be a while before he plays in any MP FOF leagues I think.
It is a shame though, I thought he was a good owner. A very active owner at least.

He was the owner that came up with our Computerized trading system right?

cuervo72

10-13-2005, 11:05 AM

Before everyone gets put in the box, can someone tell us in the peanut gallery what exactly happened at IHOF regarding cheating and/or HA leaving? Simply pointing to some threads on the issue would be great. Thanks.

Honestly, I don't remember any HA/cheating allegations. There were Chubby/backloading conversations, Blackadar/tanking conversations, but nothing I can remember with HA, though I could be wrong.

WSUCougar

10-13-2005, 11:05 AM

We're really reaching new heights now.
And if that isn't removed shortly, I will be more than happy to report it to SkyDog.

PackerFanatic

10-13-2005, 11:06 AM

It is a shame though, I thought he was a good owner. A very active owner at least.

He was the owner that came up with our Computerized trading system right?

Yes, he is.

Subby

10-13-2005, 11:07 AM

And if that isn't removed shortly, I will be more than happy to report it to SkyDog. That's not even close to what should happen.

John Galt

10-13-2005, 11:07 AM

Honestly, I don't remember any HA/cheating allegations. There were Chubby/backloading conversations, Blackadar/tanking conversations, but nothing I can remember with HA, though I could be wrong.

Thanks.

Then WTF is Blackie talking about? Blackie, do you care to elaborate?

QuikSand

10-13-2005, 11:07 AM

It would not surprise me to find people who considered opening the game file as commish to not only be not cheating, but who expect it as par for the course. Same with simming ahead to see how a game plan would fare against a future opponent - some would see that as SOP, not cheating.

I guess you learn something new every day.

Chubby

10-13-2005, 11:09 AM

Thanks.

Then WTF is Blackie talking about? Blackie, do you care to elaborate?
who knows, HA did pose as coolroy in an attempt to get back in the league (coolroy did fill in for another owner or two)

Anthony

10-13-2005, 11:10 AM

regarding my leaving - IHOF is a very nice league, elite, even, but they take it personally when you leave, almost as if you're foolish for wanting to leave *them*. i enjoyed many over there, but it became impossible for me to be myself and to enjoy myself due to my getting too passionate about my team and for getting a little too involved in bashing other people's team. kinda made me not liked by almost half the league. wasn't fun after a while. i left because it wasn't fun for me. that's all. i haven't been in the league since Feb or March of '05, and i hate having to constantly talk about it, by people who are happy i'm no longer in the league or whomever. i'm past IHOF, i wish them the best. i left of my own accord, John. i tried to leave even before that, behind the scenes without much fanfare, but the commish and even a league talked me out of it because they valued my contributions. as much as i chide cthomer from time to time, i like him, and i respected him asking me to come back when i left the first time. when i decided to leave the 2nd time i didn't look back.

i don't think you'll find anyone who'll say that i cheated or bended rules at IHOF. my thing over at IHOF, as many will say, was roleplaying, i treated the players as if they were players and not formula's (which they essentially are). in fact, many will say i was a big supporter of "gentleman's rules", where things regarding fair play and no cheating shouldn't have to be spelled out - they should already be assumed.

the fact that i was so vocal about fair play and wasn't ever called out at IHOF for any rule bending makes me even more furious. of course, since i don't have many friends over at IHOF i don't think they'll rush to my defense, they might get a kick out seeing me angered. but, it is what it is.

i'm angered at myself for allowing myself to get angered over something so silly by someone who isn't as respected as he thinks he is. i apologize to the board. i accept my boxing if one is imminent. i will not apologize to blackie. he's evil.

Buzzbee

10-13-2005, 11:10 AM

Before everyone gets put in the box, can someone tell us in the peanut gallery what exactly happened at IHOF regarding cheating and/or HA leaving? Simply pointing to some threads on the issue would be great. Thanks.
No real cheating as far as I'm aware. There were accusations of Blackie tanking to get the top pick. However, they were accusations.

HA left because he had become such a jerk that everyone ganged up on him whenever he posted. He got tired of being the punching bag, picked up his photoshop and went home.

That's about the nuts and bolts of it, at least as I see it.