George W. Bush's FOFC Approval Rating

[Kodos]

This ought to get the attention of the Republican party. FOFC is now weighing in! :) Not trying to spark more horrible partisan debate -- just curious to see how things break out.

Edit: If it helps, read this as "Would you have voted for him in 2004 knowing what you know now?"

[GrantDawg]

?

[Huckleberry]

I'm assuming a poll is forthcoming.

The important question is whether we're talking about the President or the FOFC poster.

[Kodos]

I'm assuming a poll is forthcoming.

The important question is whether we're talking about the President or the FOFC poster.

The President. Of course, I always assumed they were one in the same... :confused:

[WSUCougar]

It's now time for "LOCK THAT THREAD!" Sponsored by Bud Light and hosted by Kodos.

I can lock that thread in 20 posts.




;)

[CamEdwards]

hmmm, this is a tough call for me. On some issues, I think the President is doing a good job. On others... not so much.

[finketr]

our member GWB is doing a gine job

[Noop]

He is at best decent. Which puts him in the top 20.

[Kodos]

In before the lock!

[WSUCougar]

In before the lock!
You're just padding the thread's post count! :mad:

Oh, damn it, I just did, too! :mad: :mad:

[Cuckoo]

hmmm, this is a tough call for me. On some issues, I think the President is doing a good job. On others... not so much.

Agreed.

[Crapshoot]

I think he's doing a poor job in many ways. I would have voted for him in 2000, but not in 2004 (the gay marriage and religious pandering got on my nerves).

Edit: And yes, I think the poll needs more options.

[Ben E Lou]

Hard to vote here. I approve of some things, disappove of others. :confused:

[Young Drachma]

I voted in the wrong category, because I read the questions wrong. I didn't vote for him in 2000 or 2004, opting for 3rd party candidates in both years.

[Kodos]

If it helps, read this as "Would you have voted for him in 2004 knowing what you know now?"

[SirFozzie]

Yeah, this one is pretty much split on a partisan basis..

[Ben E Lou]

If it helps, read this as "Would you have voted for him in 2004 knowing what you know now?"In that case, I pretty much got what I bargained for. I wasn't enamored with Dubya to begin with, and he hasn't moved me much in either direction. However, I still believe that he was a mediocre option, while Kerry and Badnarik were bad options, which is why I held my nose and voted for him in '04. {Sigh}

EDIT: So I guess, at least in terms of this poll, that I "approve" of him, since he's doing about how I expected.

[Alf]

trout here

[bob]

Yeah, this one is pretty much split on a partisan basis..

Not true - I voted for him in 2000 and 2004 and don't like the job he is doing.

[Crapshoot]

Yeah, this one is pretty much split on a partisan basis..

I'd disagree. I would have voted for him in 2000, for example. The pick of Miers and the general cronyism bothers me - a lot.

[Raiders Army]

What's the error percentage on this poll?

[kcchief19]

I'm surprised at the somewhat lopsided margin of people in the voted for Bush category vs. voted for someone else category. I have perceived FOFC as tending more Republican than the general population. Is this unscientic sample poll error, a case of FOFC being more liberal than I perceive or a case of trout envy?

[timmynausea]

Shit! I clicked the wrong circle somehow. I voted for someone else and disapprove, but I clicked didn't vote and disapprove.

[Kodos]

I think people who voted for him are reluctant to say that they regret their vote.

[Ben E Lou]

I think people who voted for him are reluctant to say that they regret their vote.Or that it is a poorly-conceived/worded poll. You'd have to be a complete partisan kool-aid drinker on either side to say categorically that you "approve" or "disapprove" of the job he's doing. I approve of some things, and I disapprove of others, which is how I'd imagine most people feel.

[Kodos]

So it's not possible to decide between whether overall you're happy he's President or overall not happy? It's not difficult. Am I supposed to break it out on every possible issue?

[CamEdwards]

So it's not possible to decide between whether overall you're happy he's President or overall not happy? It's not difficult. Am I supposed to break it out on every possible issue?

But happy that he's president doesn't necessarily equal approval for the job he's doing.

I'm incredibly happy John Kerry's not the President. That doesn't mean I'm thrilled about some of the things Bush has done.

[Fonzie]

I'm surprised at the somewhat lopsided margin of people in the voted for Bush category vs. voted for someone else category. I have perceived FOFC as tending more Republican than the general population. Is this unscientic sample poll error, a case of FOFC being more liberal than I perceive or a case of trout envy?
I have the same perception as you - that FOFC is adamantly conservative. However, I've seen similar results with similar polls over the years - suggesting that FOFC isn't so much a conservative community as much as they have a small(ish) number of extraordinarily vocal conservatives.

[Dutch]

I'm surprised at the somewhat lopsided margin of people in the voted for Bush category vs. voted for someone else category. I have perceived FOFC as tending more Republican than the general population. Is this unscientic sample poll error, a case of FOFC being more liberal than I perceive or a case of trout envy?

It's about on par with what I expected. FOFC is a younger crowd and the Democratic Party targets the young crowd as one of their many 'hands-off' minority groups. Now, the key is to not grow up and the Democrats will love you forever.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If it helps, read this as "Would you have voted for him in 2004 knowing what you know now?"

Y'know, I was about to be stumped on how to answer the poll until I saw this part. Once you break it down to that question though, it became very easy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's about on par with what I expected.

What Dutch said.

[ISiddiqui]

I have the same perception as you - that FOFC is adamantly conservative. However, I've seen similar results with similar polls over the years - suggesting that FOFC isn't so much a conservative community as much as they have a small(ish) number of extraordinarily vocal conservatives.
I think that's true, that we have some extraordinary vocal conservatives who tend to make people think there are more conservatives than normal. Then again, from what I've seen, people on the internet tend more liberal.

[SackAttack]

In that case, I pretty much got what I bargained for. I wasn't enamored with Dubya to begin with, and he hasn't moved me much in either direction. However, I still believe that he was a mediocre option, while Kerry and Badnarik were bad options, which is why I held my nose and voted for him in '04. {Sigh}

EDIT: So I guess, at least in terms of this poll, that I "approve" of him, since he's doing about how I expected.

What he said, really. I wasn't terribly thrilled with the second half of Bush's first term, and would have voted for someone else if there had been a candidate I could get behind, but to take a page from Robin Williams' book, as things stood I had to say "Sorry John, but he scares me less than you do."

[sachmo71]

One of the "I didn't vote in 2004 and don't approve" should be moved to the "I voted for someone else and disapprove" column. In case there is a tie. :D

[Ben E Lou]

But happy that he's president doesn't necessarily equal approval for the job he's doing.

I'm incredibly happy John Kerry's not the President. That doesn't mean I'm thrilled about some of the things Bush has done.Bingo.

[Ben E Lou]

I wasn't terribly thrilled with the second half of Bush's first term, and would have voted for someone else if there had been a candidate I could get behind, but to take a page from Robin Williams' book, as things stood I had to say "Sorry John, but he scares me less than you do."Bingo again.

[Ben E Lou]

Another factor here could be that some of Dubya's "neocon-ish" ways are counter to the sensibilities of "true" conservatives, a factor that probably cuts to the core of the I-saw-no-better-option comments in this thread.

[Warhammer]

Agreed with Cam and SkyDog. I voted for Bush because I agree with his foreign policy, but some of his domestic policy has left me desiring more.

All in all, thank God we never had President Gore or President Kerry!

[Antmeister]

It's about on par with what I expected. FOFC is a younger crowd and the Democratic Party targets the young crowd as one of their many 'hands-off' minority groups. Now, the key is to not grow up and the Democrats will love you forever.

What do you consider young? I don't know if you remember the age distribution poll, but most people on this board range from 29 - 36. They are pretty much in our age range. And just because someone voted for another candidate doesn't make them a diehard liberal or conservative.

There are a number of people, like myself, who vote for a person who share some semblance of their values and belief. You will find these people on both sides, but they are usually the ones that never get picked to be our leaders.

[Subby]

Around the time of Reagan's funeral I was 50-50 on Bush - I found myself defending him more often than not. I think things had gone downhill drastically since that point.

[sachmo71]

Around the time of Reagan's funeral I was 50-50 on Bush - I found myself defending him more often than not. I think things had gone downhill drastically since that point.


Do you think he killed Reagan?

[lighthousekeeper]

Do you think he killed Reagan?
lol

[revrew]

I voted in the "voted for him but disapprove" category. Not that I would have voted any differently in 2004--given the options, as others have said. I do, however, feel greatly let down by this particular leader. Perhaps it was because I had greater expectations for him.

As a fiscal conservative, I find his domestic spending initiatives to be a slap in the face to his entire party. As a social conservative, I find his political maneuvering with the Supreme Court justices to be unsettling.

Just once, I'd like to see a Republican elected who continued to act like it once he was in office. Or, in lieu of such an improbable thing, I'd like to see a legitimate presidential candidate I can support fully from the beginning instead of having to settle for the lukewarm dishes our (sadly, only) 2 political parties keep serving up.

[Crapshoot]

It's about on par with what I expected. FOFC is a younger crowd and the Democratic Party targets the young crowd as one of their many 'hands-off' minority groups. Now, the key is to not grow up and the Democrats will love you forever.

You know Dutch, you're a solid dittohead- if someone wants your opinion on an issue, its easy to consult the Frontpage website.

Heck, if we're playing the stereotype game, all you need to do is be a racist or homophobic Southerner (culminating in the "Southern Strategy"), and the Republican party (though not, repeat not, the Rockerfeller Republican wing) wants you. :D

[Crapshoot]

Another factor here could be that some of Dubya's "neocon-ish" ways are counter to the sensibilities of "true" conservatives, a factor that probably cuts to the core of the I-saw-no-better-option comments in this thread.

What's a true conserative Ben ? The Rockerfeller Wing (like me), who are aghast at the religous nuty-jobs and homophobes running wild ? The Religous Right, which has problems with big business (its pushing an evil "liberal" agenda) ? The Establishment Republicans ? The Isolationists ? I see the issue you're raising, but who or what is a true "conservative" ?

[JonInMiddleGA]

What's a true conserative Ben ? The Rockerfeller Wing (like me), who are aghast at the religous nuty-jobs and homophobes running wild ? The Religous Right, which has problems with big business (its pushing an evil "liberal" agenda) ? The Establishment Republicans ? The Isolationists ? I see the issue you're raising, but who or what is a true "conservative" ?

AFAIK, the phrase "true conservative" usually gets applied to the Rockefeller Republicans more than any other group. Which is how I interpreted, right or wrong, what he meant.

Of course, that label is pretty dated, now we just call you RINO's ;)

[Crapshoot]

AFAIK, the phrase "true conservative" usually gets applied to the Rockefeller Republicans more than any other group. Which is how I interpreted, right or wrong, what he meant.

Of course, that label is pretty dated, now we just call you RINO's ;)

Exactly - that's what I figured. I'd say even you arent close to a true conservative, given that you're pro-choice. By today's definition of a true conservative, the closest thing we seem to find is ... Franklin, or perhaps Cam.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Exactly - that's what I figured. I'd say even you arent close to a true conservative, given that you're pro-choice.

Precisely why I'm not now, nor do I ever really expect to be, a "card-carrying" member of the GOP.

I'll vote for 'em as long as they remain the best choice to represent the majority of my (weighted) interests, but that's an issue that makes it impossible for me to feel it's appropriate for me to be an "official" part of the party either. Of course, that matters little in the grand scheme since GA has open voting in primaries, but still.

[Glengoyne]

I voted with the approve what he is doing crowd, but that's just the option that was closest to my true sentiment. I voted for him in 2004, and would do it again if the alternative was John Kerry. I'm probably a bit less pleased with the President than I was back in 2004, but I'm still believing he is better than the alternative. Color me more as disappointed with him than I am disapproving.

[Raiders Army]

I'm surprised the trout isn't making more of a showing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm surprised the trout isn't making more of a showing.

That'd be the Georgia governor's race ;)

[CamEdwards]

Exactly - that's what I figured. I'd say even you arent close to a true conservative, given that you're pro-choice. By today's definition of a true conservative, the closest thing we seem to find is ... Franklin, or perhaps Cam.

I don't think Franklin would appreciate the comparison, considering the PM he recently sent me.

As for this:

How tough is it? You either say "Good job! You have my full support in everything you do!" Or you think he could be doing better.

I am probably the ony lone here who voted for neither Bush nor Kerry.

If that were the case, 99% of the politicians would get an unfavorable rating from me. I don't look at politicians that way in deciding whether I'm feeling favorable or unfavorable towards them.

[sabotai]

I voted for someone else and disapprove. I hated Bush and I hated Kerry, so I voted for Kerry figuring why not put the White House at odds with Congress? The idea of having Bush in the White House with a submissive republican controlled congress scared me more than if Kerry had to deal with a pissed off, uncooperative republican Congress. :)

I'm surprised at the somewhat lopsided margin of people in the voted for Bush category vs. voted for someone else category. I have perceived FOFC as tending more Republican than the general population. Is this unscientic sample poll error, a case of FOFC being more liberal than I perceive or a case of trout envy? I still think it is, I just think Bush is a real turn off to a lot of the conservatives on this board. In fact, the vast majority of the those here who said they voted for Bush say they did so as a vote against Kerry.

If you were to take an issue-by-issue poll of what I think politically, I'd probably fall more on the conservative side than the liberal side (with a healthy dose of issues that I don't fall inline with either). And there are more Republicans I can name that I'd be more than happy to vote for than Democrats for President (I'm having a hard time just thinking of one)...it's just that I hated Bush that much and thought he did such a bad job in his first term that I'd rather have had Kerry in there. The job Bush has done since the 2004 election does not make me change my mind on that.

*sigh*....if only McCain had won the 2000 primary....*sigh*

[timmynausea]

It's about on par with what I expected. FOFC is a younger crowd and the Democratic Party targets the young crowd as one of their many 'hands-off' minority groups. Now, the key is to not grow up and the Democrats will love you forever.

We're just a minor threat.

[JonInMiddleGA]

*sigh*....if only McCain had won the 2000 primary....*sigh*

Hoping for a Democrat in the White House eh? ;)

(sorry, I don't see McCain as electable at all, and would probably just avoid the ballot box altogether if he were ever the GOP nominee. Something like a McCain/Clinton choice would probably be my first missed Presidential election)

[Crapshoot]

I don't think Franklin would appreciate the comparison, considering the PM he recently sent me.

As for this:

If that were the case, 99% of the politicians would get an unfavorable rating from me. I don't look at politicians that way in deciding whether I'm feeling favorable or unfavorable towards them.

Eh, I was trying to come up with names - my thought was that you're closer to Franklin then you are to me/JIMGA - you're apparently a social conservative, pro-business, pro-gun rights and what not. I guess Franklin's probably more extreme than the mythical true conservative, but I worry that's he's whats being highlighted as the real conservative type.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Eh, I was trying to come up with names - my thought was that you're closer to Franklin then you are to me/JIMGA - you're apparently a social conservative, pro-business, pro-gun rights and what not. I guess Franklin's probably more extreme than the mythical true conservative, but I worry that's he's whats being highlighted as the real conservative type.

But then again, I suspect I'm actually closer to Franklin than I am to you ... except for the pro-choice bit.

Who's closer to who(m?) probably depends on whether you apply equal weight to all issues or if they're "weighted" somehow. There's certainly a lot of people who want no part of me me based on the weight of the abortion issue but at the same time, there's no shortage of people I want no part of because of a myriad of other social issues.

Ah well, I really prefer living on an island to being all cramped & crowded & stuff. I really hate traffic ;)

[Ryche]

Hoping for a Democrat in the White House eh? ;)

(sorry, I don't see McCain as electable at all, and would probably just avoid the ballot box altogether if he were ever the GOP nominee. Something like a McCain/Clinton choice would probably be my first missed Presidential election)

Actually, I think he'd win easily if he won the Republican nomination for president. And I think he's one of the few Republican candidates who has a shot in 2008 if the Democrats put up a decent candidate (which is always a huge if).

I love the idea of a McCain/Rice ticket, but I definitely fall into the more moderate end of the Republican spectrum.

As far as the poll, I took option 1, with the usual caveats that there are some things about Bush I haven't liked.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Actually, I think he'd win easily if he won the Republican nomination for president.

I disagree, largely because I see nothing about him that can motivate the voters to go to the polls. IMO, for the majority of voters available to the GOP, he's only marginally better than many Democratic candidates & that's not going to be enough to motivate the voters. And low turnout would doom him to go down in history as the man who lost the White House.

[Ryche]

I disagree, largely because I see nothing about him that can motivate the voters to go to the polls. IMO, for the majority of voters available to the GOP, he's only marginally better than many Democratic candidates & that's not going to be enough to motivate the voters. And low turnout would doom him to go down in history as the man who lost the White House.

He'd win more than enough from the middle to make up for the hard core conservatives who can't stand him and would stay home. He has a lot more popular support from the general public than most potential candidates. I think you'd actually have some voters happy to vote for him as opposed to the idea of the lesser of two evils.

And if he ran against Hillary, plenty of them would hold their noses and vote for him to keep her out of office. Realistically though, just can't see him getting the nomination, so I doubt we'll ever know.

Actually, I'm more interested in seeing Rice as VP anyway.

[kingnebwsu]

So I saw Green Day last night, and their whole message was very anti-Bush. It got a load of applause from the audience when he said "A BIG FUCK YOU TO GEORGE W. BUSH!" But the thing that amuses me in all this, is that despite all the people who hate Bush with a passion, and documentaries that "prove" how incompetent Bush is, he still won back to back elections (even though they both were very close). That fact almost gets lost in all the Bush-hating that goes on.

I didn't vote in '04 and I shrug at what's going on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

He'd win more than enough from the middle to make up for the hard core conservatives who can't stand him and would stay home.

We disagree. Shrug, I guess.

[Ryche]

We disagree. Shrug, I guess.

Lol, true enough. Not really any way for either of us to prove our opinion, so it's probably left best as is.

[ISiddiqui]

Put me down for someone who believes McCain would win HUGE, as in Reagan numbers. He's a very popular political figure among moderates, and he is a conservative on issues like abortion, so plenty of conservatives would come out... especially if the Democrat isn't a conservative Dem.

[kcchief19]

But happy that he's president doesn't necessarily equal approval for the job he's doing.

I'm incredibly happy John Kerry's not the President. That doesn't mean I'm thrilled about some of the things Bush has done. Or that it is a poorly-conceived/worded poll. You'd have to be a complete partisan kool-aid drinker on either side to say categorically that you "approve" or "disapprove" of the job he's doing. I approve of some things, and I disapprove of others, which is how I'd imagine most people feel. I'm grouping these together because both Cam and Ben expressed on-the-fence attitudes. I think you can be happy that someone is president and not approve of the job their doing and vice versa. They are not mutually exclusive.

I also don't think you have to be a kool-aid drinker to categorically approve or disapprove of the job a president is doing. I would hazzard to say that I have rarely if ever been on the fence about how good a job a president is doing; I'm never ambivalent. I can see in some instances where you can be unsure, but I think everyone has an opinion at some particularly moment.

I think I bristle a bit because the next step in critizing a poll like this -- and true enough that this is no scientific -- is to say that the question or poll is faulty. The job favorability question has been asked by pollsters since at least Truman and has proven to be a very accurate predictor of voter behavior. That's not say that at any given moment exactly 45 percent of American approve/disapprove of the president's job handling, but certainly more often than not within the margin of error.

That said, since September 11, no more than 8 percent of respondents in Gallop job approval survey have ever said they are unsure about the president's job approval. Not having a position one way or another more often than not is an extreme minority view.

During the Clinton presidency, there were times I was the opposite of Cam. There were times I was glad he was president but didn't approve of the job he was doing. During the Bush presidency, I've never been glad he was presisdent but there were times I approved of how he was doing. I don't think you have to be partisan about things like this, although your initial support for a candidate almost certainly seems to determine your default position on the president's job approval.

[sabotai]

So I saw Green Day last night, and their whole message was very anti-Bush. It got a load of applause from the audience when he said "A BIG FUCK YOU TO GEORGE W. BUSH!" But the thing that amuses me in all this, is that despite all the people who hate Bush with a passion, and documentaries that "prove" how incompetent Bush is, he still won back to back elections (even though they both were very close). That fact almost gets lost in all the Bush-hating that goes on.
In all fairness, most of the people at a Green Day concert probably aren't old enough to vote anyway. :D

As for McCain, I think Jon is wrong. He carries a lot of popularity with moderates and even some liberals. A neighbor of mine who is a card-carrying member of the Democrats and is one of those high school liberal teachers everyone loves to hate said he'd vote for McCain over Hilary or any Dem he could think of that has a chance to run in '08. I don't disagree that McCain wouldn't carry the hard-core repoublican side, but he'd more than make up for it from the middle and the left.

But he'd have to win the primary first. That's where his real challenge would be. But he's getting pretty old and I dunno if hewants to run for President anymore.

Right now my money is on Giuliani running, another canidate I'd easily vote for over any Dem I can think of.

[stevew]

McCain fathered a black child out of wedlock. He can't possibly win the South Carolina primary.

I don't know what was worse, that people wouldnt vote for a guy because he alledgedly fathered a mixed race child(which was a false rumor anyways), or that someone would make/infer something like that up about a canidate to try to get votes.

Until the Democrats find a non douchebag to run for office, they won't win. The republicans at least found an electable douchebag both times. I didnt vote due to a move in 2004, I'd probably have voted for bush, since i hated all the 3rd party options.

In 2008 I hope we push someone like Allen from Virginia, as I generally liked him when i lived in Tenneva.

[Joe]

I will have you know that my approval rating is sky high. I don't know about that other clown who's in Washington, though.

[Raiders Army]

I will have you know that my approval rating is sky high. I don't know about that other clown who's in Washington, though.
You like that trout, eh?

[Buccaneer]

In that case, I pretty much got what I bargained for. I wasn't enamored with Dubya to begin with, and he hasn't moved me much in either direction. However, I still believe that he was a mediocre option, while Kerry and Badnarik were bad options, which is why I held my nose and voted for him in '04. {Sigh}

EDIT: So I guess, at least in terms of this poll, that I "approve" of him, since he's doing about how I expected.
I believe this sums it up for me as well (no surprise there). The option I would vote for would be: "I voted for him and did not support him in 2004 but still would vote for him instead of Kerry".

[st.cronin]

I agree with those who said they are happy Bush is the President, even if they don't like everything he has done. I like Bush a great deal, and think he's a much brighter and kinder man than he gets credit for. The most common complaint people make about politicians is that they waffle and pander for votes, that they lack conviction. I believe Bush to be immune to that particular criticism. On the other hand... his economic agendas, in particular, I think have been disastrous for the country.

[Buccaneer]

To clarify on what I don't approve of is that he is just like a Democratic President with very little sense or leadership regarding reigning in federal spendings and powers. He has become just as bad as Clinton in pandering towards special interest money and political action committees - and that's saying a lot. In my mind, Congress is by far the most guilty party with the Repubocrats running things. What I expect out of the Executive Branch is leadership and backbone. They have that in some things but not in others. With a Kerry or Gore administration, the Executive Branch would have failed in nearly every single area, foreign and domestic, mainly due to the sheer incompetence top to bottom. Whereas now we only get half incompetence.

I fully believe that the next administration will be no different. It has become a bigger monster than any one president and administration.

[Glengoyne]

Put me down for someone who believes McCain would win HUGE, as in Reagan numbers. He's a very popular political figure among moderates, and he is a conservative on issues like abortion, so plenty of conservatives would come out... especially if the Democrat isn't a conservative Dem.
It would be a slam dunk, no-brainer. McCain is a Republican who wins California. It would have been a Reaganesque ass-kicking. I was hoping that GW would lose in 2000, just so the party would realize that they needed to come more to the middle. Too bad, my candidate wins, but I lose. The Democrats continue to chase ridiculous windmills, and the Republicans continue to marginalize themselves with plays to the religious right.

[Buccaneer]

It would be a slam dunk, no-brainer. McCain is a Republican who wins California. It would have been a Reaganesque ass-kicking. I was hoping that GW would lose in 2000, just so the party would realize that they needed to come more to the middle. Too bad, my candidate wins, but I lose. The Democrats continue to chase ridiculous windmills, and the Republicans continue to marginalize themselves with plays to the religious right.
It's sad how perceptions (and media trolling) become reality. You would need to go back only a few elections (like 1980 and many of the ones before) to see that the "marginal issues" were being loudly espoused by all presidential candidates (Rep, Dem and Ind).

[MrBigglesworth]

All in all, thank God we never had President Gore or President Kerry!
Be careful what you say, among young Democrats Gore is the front-runner for the 2008 election. He's the party's only credible anti-war hawk, and has been giving great speeches lately. The netroots absolutely love him.

[MrBigglesworth]

it for. The most common complaint people make about politicians is that they waffle and pander for votes, that they lack conviction. I believe Bush to be immune to that particular criticism. On the other hand... his economic agendas, in particular, I think have been disastrous for the country.
Bush as the non-waffler is a media construction. I can rattle off a dozen major things he has 'flip-flopped' on when it was politically or realistically neccessary: talks with N Korea, punishing those responsible for the Plame leak, the Department of Homeland Security, gay marriage amendment (twice, against/for/against), nation building, energy subsidies, mandatory controls on greenhouse gas emissions, McCain-Feingold, etc.

[bronconick]

I reached the conclusion before my first election in 2000 that neither party really serves enough of my interests, and since I trend libertarian, voted for Kerry in '04 hoping for gridlock through the '06 midterms. I am kind of disappointed in Bush because I was hoping against hope that he'd stick a couple solidly strict constructionists on the Supreme Court, since that's the only branch of government I hold as having any chance at shrinking the power of the federal government. The Democrats were never interested in smaller government, and the Republicans suckle at the trough as badly if not worse then the Dems, simply because for the longest time they talked the talk.

With my political views, it became pretty much impossible to respect the Republicans as a whole when DeLay's running around like an assclown proclaiming that the government's budget is trimmed to fitness. So, I'll probably find myself spending the next 50 years voting for whatever party is likely to not hold Congress, and hope the Congress blows billions investigating the other party's President, since butting into his privacy means they're too busy to try to take mine away.

[MrBigglesworth]

I reached the conclusion before my first election in 2000 that neither party really serves enough of my interests, and since I trend libertarian, voted for Kerry in '04 hoping for gridlock through the '06 midterms. I am kind of disappointed in Bush because I was hoping against hope that he'd stick a couple solidly strict constructionists on the Supreme Court, since that's the only branch of government I hold as having any chance at shrinking the power of the federal government. The Democrats were never interested in smaller government, and the Republicans suckle at the trough as badly if not worse then the Dems, simply because for the longest time they talked the talk.

With my political views, it became pretty much impossible to respect the Republicans as a whole when DeLay's running around like an assclown proclaiming that the government's budget is trimmed to fitness. So, I'll probably find myself spending the next 50 years voting for whatever party is likely to not hold Congress, and hope the Congress blows billions investigating the other party's President, since butting into his privacy means they're too busy to try to take mine away.
I'm almost a libertarian, though I tend to be a litte more liberal on economic issues. I think the Dems are going to start taking the libertarian vote. The GOP is obviously against personal freedoms, and their economic policy is turning more corporate. My hope is that the Dems can moderate their economic policy a little (such as being against the GOP increases the past 6 years) and pull in the libertarians without losing the unions, etc, that form the economic part of the Democratic coalition.

[st.cronin]

Bush as the non-waffler is a media construction. I can rattle off a dozen major things he has 'flip-flopped' on when it was politically or realistically neccessary: talks with N Korea, punishing those responsible for the Plame leak, the Department of Homeland Security, gay marriage amendment (twice, against/for/against), nation building, energy subsidies, mandatory controls on greenhouse gas emissions, McCain-Feingold, etc.

Compare him with Kerry, please.

[Blade6119]

It's about on par with what I expected. FOFC is a younger crowd and the Democratic Party targets the young crowd as one of their many 'hands-off' minority groups. Now, the key is to not grow up and the Democrats will love you forever.

After that age poll skydog did a little back im not so sure this board is a young as i thought...and i know as one of those youths i am a firm repub as are most of the kids i know....then again, repubs are just better looking so i may not notice all those dem girls walking around :D

[MrBigglesworth]

Compare him with Kerry, please.
Sure: Kerry is the same. It's a media creation that Bush is any different, same as it's a media creation that 'Gore said he invented the Internet'.

[flere-imsaho]

Compare him with Kerry, please.

Why? After all, this is what you wrote:

The most common complaint people make about politicians is that they waffle and pander for votes, that they lack conviction. I believe Bush to be immune to that particular criticism.

Saying "Compare him with Kerry" doesn't refute MrB's point.

[Dutch]

Sure: Kerry is the same. It's a media creation that Bush is any different, same as it's a media creation that 'Gore said he invented the Internet'.

Actually Gore said, "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." in a Wolf Blitzer, CNN interview.

I guess we all know what he "really" meant, but it's better to paint a fuzzy partisan picture right? Right. Mission Accomplished.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm confused... Dutch are you backing his point or disputing it? Because, frankly, what you wrote... could go either way.

[st.cronin]

Why? After all, this is what you wrote:



Saying "Compare him with Kerry" doesn't refute MrB's point.

Would it help if I had phrased it 'more immune to that particular criticism than any other presidential candidate except McCain in my lifetime?' Anyway, if I understand the point of this thread, it's not to ARGUE about Bush, but rather just to share the way we feel about him. I am not interested in arguing about Bush on the internet, or anywhere else. I realize not everybody sees him the same way I do.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Trout.

[Dutch]

I'm confused... Dutch are you backing his point or disputing it? Because, frankly, what you wrote... could go either way.

I agree that the media can make mountains out of molehills.

Is Bush allowed to change his mind? Absolutely. Did Gore really mean to suggest he invented the internet? Of course not. Did Bush really say that there was no more work to be done with regards to our military and Iraq after the removal of Saddam Hussein when the banner said, "Mission Accomplished"? Certainly not. Did Kerry really get scared of Howard Dean's popularity as the reason he changed his support of the war when he suggested, "I voted for the war before I voted against it?" No. Did Bush conjure up Hurricane Katrina? No. ...to squash black people? No.

But now I'm confused, because Mr B is backing up his point only some of the time.

[MrBigglesworth]

But now I'm confused, because Mr B is backing up his point only some of the time.
Now I'm confused, where did the attack on me come from if you are agreeing with me?

[tucker342]

"I voted for someone else in 2004 and disapprove of the job he is doing"

Also wanted to note, McCain is one of the few Republicans that I can tolerate. However, I still would never vote for him unless the Democratic candidate was Hitler or Stalin reincarnated.

[timmynausea]

Also wanted to note, McCain is one of the few Republicans that I can tolerate. However, I still would never vote for him unless the Democratic candidate was Hitler or Stalin reincarnated.

Same here.

[Dutch]

Now I'm confused, where did the attack on me come from if you are agreeing with me?

It's not an 'attack'.

I'm just reminding you that if you are going to be mad at the media for misrepresenting Bush as a guy who doesn't flip-flop, you shouldn't also agree with the media when they mislead you with the "Mission Accomplished" stuff. Just pointing out the hypocracy of being a partisan hack.

[MrBigglesworth]

It's not an 'attack'.

I'm just reminding you that if you are going to be mad at the media for misrepresenting Bush as a guy who doesn't flip-flop, you shouldn't also agree with the media when they mislead you with the "Mission Accomplished" stuff. Just pointing out the hypocracy of being a partisan hack.
Ah, now I see your angle. You are creating a caricature of reality. For instance, the media says that "Mission Accomplished" is indicative of the lack of planning by the administartion for the post-war era, but you'll turn it into them saying Bush thought the work was over. Or the media says that the Bush response to the hurricane was terrible (comparing it to Florida pre-election, can that be argued?), but you'll turn it into them saying that the hurricane was conjured by Bush. Someone disagrees? Call them a partisan hack and call it a day.