An odd discussion topic (a puzzle of sorts)

[WSUCougar]

Let me begin by stating that sometimes my brain works in mysterious ways. I tend to daydream and fantasize about things to pass the time while I drive, and that’s what led me to create this thread. I know that I am weird in that regard, and am comfortable with my own weirdness. So any jabs you send my way will be deflected by my Aura of Self-Aware Weirdness. But enough about that.

As I was driving to work, I came over a slight hill and saw columns of smoke on a ridgeline ahead. This struck me twofold. First, my mind immediately whisked me away to some kind of fantasy game or movie setting. Column of smoke = encampment. What else could it entail? An army? A village? A farm? And so on.

But the second point of interest was that there were two columns of smoke, in relatively close proximity. And so my mind wandered off into the “why?” and “what?” aspects of that.

Do I have a point in bringing all this up and further exposing my mental weirdness to the forum? Well, here’s the puzzle to ponder:

What does the presence of two columns of smoke tell us that one does not?

There is no right or wrong answer. It’s merely an exploration of the concept. It doesn’t have to flow from the context of a fantasy game or movie, but that’s where I went with it.

And I'm delving beyond the obvious.

[QuikSand]

Two columns suggest "point sources" rather than a broad source... my first instinct is to say that two columns of smoke suggests that this is a controled, man-made fire of some sort. (Like leaf-burning or trash-burning, taking place under watch)

[Buzzbee]

It tells me they are coming by sea.

[cuervo72]

It's telling you to go for two.

[gstelmack]

Wouldn't color of smoke influence this? Black is clearly fire or something similar, but white could simply mean both cooling towers of the nuke plant are working, or the factory is at full production, or similar.

[WSUCougar]

It tells me they are coming by sea.
History humor...I like it! :D

It's telling you to go for two.
Sports humor...I like that too! :D

To elaborate on my thinking, I went down the mental path of encampments in a fantasy RPG setting. If I were adventuring in a wilderness and saw two columns of smoke instead of one, I would immediately think in terms of increased numbers of possible foes. But now many more? What's a reasonable cut-off point for individuals using one fire versus two?

[gstelmack]

To elaborate on my thinking, I went down the mental path of encampments in a fantasy RPG setting. If I were adventuring in a wilderness and saw two columns of smoke instead of one, I would immediately think in terms of increased numbers of possible foes. But now many more? What's a reasonable cut-off point for individuals using one fire versus two?
One squad. How big is a squad in your fantasy setting? Could be anywhere from 4 to 20 or so.

[QuikSand]

Jack has one fire, and he and Piggy are maintaining it... while Ralph and his gang have started their own and are roasting a boar over it.

[Kodos]

Those aren't pillars of smoke -- those are dual twisters!!!! GET OUT OF THERE!!!! :eek:

[WSUCougar]

One squad. How big is a squad in your fantasy setting? Could be anywhere from 4 to 20 or so.
But you're saying "one squad" is an assumption that might not hold true. Is that a division of military hierarchy or mere numbers? Are you saying that four guys of Squad A build one fire and four other guys of Squad B build another because they belong to different squads? There are also practical issues to consider - is the fire just for cooking or warmth as well?

[Maple Leafs]

I think it means that twins have just been elected pope.

[gstelmack]

But you're saying "one squad" is an assumption that might not hold true. Is that a division of military hierarchy or mere numbers? Are you saying that four guys of Squad A build one fire and four other guys of Squad B build another because they belong to different squads? There are also practical issues to consider - is the fire just for cooking or warmth as well?
What I mean is usually a squad is the smallest unit that sticks together. They usually share either a decent-sized tent or stretch out their ponchos together, they share a cooking fire, etc. Through time immemorial this has pretty much been how human militaries have worked. There may be exceptions, but this is generally how it broke down.

So in your example, there are two squads out there. How big those squads are depends on the times and what military they are coming from.

[WSUCougar]

What if, just for the sake of a fantasy context discussion, they are not necessarily human?

[gstelmack]

What if, just for the sake of a fantasy context discussion, they are not necessarily human?
That still tends to be how militaries, especially ancient ones, broke down. A squad was expected to be self-sufficient. One carries the tent, one the cooking pot, one the food, etc.

Now, again, this would all be background information you'd know. If for some reason your fantasy armies don't follow these types of rules (maybe they use magic for most of this stuff), you'd know that and would have a better idea of what these two smoke columns mean.

[cuervo72]

To elaborate on my thinking, I went down the mental path of encampments in a fantasy RPG setting. If I were adventuring in a wilderness and saw two columns of smoke instead of one, I would immediately think in terms of increased numbers of possible foes. But now many more? What's a reasonable cut-off point for individuals using one fire versus two?

Ah, fantasy RPG...I was going to say that it could mean your Imperialism opponent has an upgraded steel mill...

[Ryche]

It tells me there's not much wind that day since the smoke is going straight up.

[Kodos]

Nobody likes my dual twisters twist... :(

[rkmsuf]

there are no columns. there is no smoke. do you think that air your are breathing is real?

[RendeR]

In general terms, based on reading I've done regarding Medeival battles and some more modern ones, each actual campfire you see represents about 10 men. Take from that what you will.

[Bee]

two-headed dragon obviously...

[WSUCougar]

Okay, so let's follow the premise out further; right now we've discussed the possibilities that, if these are military campfires, there are two "squads" (or whatever term) which could mean around 8-20 men as opposed to 1-9 with one fire. Obviously, a sizable difference for combat.

But what beyond the obvious? What else might this difference entail?

And what if it's not military?

[RendeR]

Actually, its just some good ol' boys whipping up two stills-worth of whiskey....

[Huckleberry]

How close were the smoke sources to each other?

Sounds to me like your enemy is short-handed. One unit, 5 men tops. They are attempting to trick you into overestimating their numbers. Watch for the telltale 3rd smoke source to show itself in the next few minutes.

[WSUCougar]

How close were the smoke sources to each other?

Sounds to me like your enemy is short-handed. One unit, 5 men tops. They are attempting to trick you into overestimating their numbers. Watch for the telltale 3rd smoke source to show itself in the next few minutes.
:cool:

This post is more in keeping with my line of thought.

The two smoke sources were basically side by side, by the way.

[John Galt]

Cheech and Chong are back together.

[Bee]

So did you swerve into the adjacent lane trying to protect your flank?

[rkmsuf]

There's a hatch with some guy pressing a button every 108 minutes over there.

[WSUCougar]

So did you swerve into the adjacent lane trying to protect your flank?
No, but a crossbow bolt into the hand of the adjacent cell-phone user/driver might have worked.

[RendeR]

As for non-military possibilities, it may well just be a band of gypsies passing through the area and they have camped for the night.

[QuikSand]

As for non-military possibilities, it may well just be a band of gypsies passing through the area and they have camped for the night.

Or a small group of gypsies who craftily want you to overestimate their numbers.

[WSUCougar]

As for non-military possibilities, it may well just be a band of gypsies passing through the area and they have camped for the night.
Remember that the question is not just "What does smoke entail?" but "What does the presence of two columns of smoke tell us that one does not?"

[Passacaglia]

How far away are the columns? Perhaps it is two warring factions?

[John Galt]

Nobody likes my dual twisters twist... :(

It's ok. No one liked my stoner humor either. :(

[gstelmack]

Remember that the question is not just "What does smoke entail?" but "What does the presence of two columns of smoke tell us that one does not?"
That there are twice as much greenhouse gas emissions polluting the atmosphere and we're that much closer to flooding all the arable land on the planet?

[Huckleberry]

Basically side-by-side.

All signs point to their being in a position of weakness. This could be two fires close enough to be tended by the one unit that is trying to trick you. Or it could be a sign of a larger number of weaker enemies huddled closely together for defensive purposes. Either way, they are hoping not to be attacked.

Or they're a band of gypsies, and gypsies have cool stuff.

So attack.

[gstelmack]

It's ok. No one liked my stoner humor either. :(
So far I'm enjoying QuikSand's humor more...

[WSUCougar]

How far away are the columns? Perhaps it is two warring factions?
They were close. Maybe 50 yards apart, from my viewpoint anyway.

[RendeR]

Remember that the question is not just "What does smoke entail?" but "What does the presence of two columns of smoke tell us that one does not?"Well, to continue then:

Since you earlier noted they are right next to one another, we can fairly safely assume that it is not two factions, but one group of people working together. We can tell from the fact that there are two fires that they have enough membership to require two firepits for their encampment. Assuming this IS an encampment. Further, two fires implies that they are not moving anytime soon, since a unit, even a largish one, who planned on moving even at first light, wouldn't bothger with two, they would make due with one for speed reasons, they would also use only one if they are a militant group because one fire is harder to detect/notice than twin columns of smoke.

Assuming a militant situation, I would look at this as a scouting force sent to watch this region from the ridgeline and report on movements to their superiors.


NOW, let us assume they are NOT militant. What could they be then? Traveling villagers? Gypsies? A wandering carnival? There are far too many possibilities to guess correctly. You CAN again, get an idea that they are approximately 20+ in number, 2 fires means more people. You can also assume they are staying awhile. For the same reasons as the militants, one fire is faster and easier to extinguish and clean up than 2. They are also, it would seem, not too concerned about detection, or they wuld have banked the fires to eliminate the 2 flowing columns of smoke. In fact, this idea makes me believe they aren't militant at all, as any good elader would have made their troops do this to avoid such detection.

more to come as I ponder.

[Buzzbee]

The enemy is burning their vanquished foes, and are therefore not cannibals?

Lightning doesn't strike the same spot twice?

The enemies are stupid. Why would they make fires where there enemies could see them. Flashback to Dances with Wolves. Only white man would make fire during the day so all could see the smoke.

They have fire, but do they have firewater. That's the more important question.

[cuervo72]

It's ok. No one liked my stoner humor either. :(

I thought it was one of the better attempts, actually.

[KevinNU7]

Can I have the minutes of my life back that it took to read this lame thread

[Buzzbee]

Can I have the minutes of my life back that it took to read this lame thread
Yes. Please send a check or money order and a self addressed stamped envelope to:

Smoke and Mirrors
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Washington D.C.


Please make $50 check payable to Campaign Financing Reform Campaign.

[Warhammer]

Well, the first question is, who brought the smoke columns to your attention? If it was a gully dwarf, you would have to check it out yourself because it could be a whole army down there.

Now, if you spotted the columns of smoke yourself, you can confirm that two means two. That means that you could multiply the count by 10 and come up with a safe number. Now, what type of squads are they? Obviously, they would not be magical fires, because we all know, those give off no smoke. Also, dwarves tend to be master fire tenders and would not allow the smoke to escape. Orcs can be ruled out because the nearby forest would be ablaze, rather than the two lone campfires. Halflings/Hobbits can be ruled out because they would not venture so far from home. That leaves men and elves.

So, to further ascertain what sorts of folk we are talking about, listen... Is there any chanting or singing? If there is no singing, we are talking about men. If there is singing, chances are it is an elven camp.

Now the force composition is probably going to be a large band. Theives would not travel in a group so large that two campfires were necessary, unless they were accompanied by warriors. Clerics would not travel in groups this large either. Mages were already ruled out, so we are left with warriors. Since we know that most elves are not warriors, we can rule out elves all together, so we are talking about a large warrior group of men.

[WSUCougar]

Let me throw another possibility at you: it's still mild here, so this isn't a question of warmth at night. What if these are just two massive cookfires for a sizable army?

[albionmoonlight]

Let me throw another possibility at you: it's still mild here, so this isn't a question of warmth at night. What if these are just two massive cookfires for a sizable army?
Do we know that it is not a village? Could be a blacksmith and a baker in the same village.

[QuikSand]

There's a candlestick maker down the street, also.

[rkmsuf]

You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

[WSUCougar]

Yeah, could be. I was thinking along the blacksmith line earlier when considering non-military angles. Our perhaps animal rendering.

[Buzzbee]

Or perhaps settlers are clearing land to build a settlement. They are burning miscellaneous deadwood and brush that otherwise can't be used in construction. They have two fires because one big one would be too hard to contain.

[Buzzbee]

Coug - you have a PM at IHOF.

[gstelmack]

The color of smoke is still important to this discussion but has not been answered yet as far as I can see (or I'm going blind, which would be good to know as well).

[WSUCougar]

Or perhaps settlers are clearing land to build a settlement. They are burning miscellaneous deadwood and brush that otherwise can't be used in construction. They have two fires because one big one would be too hard to contain.
Funny you should mention that, since such fires (burning slag heaps) were common sights when I was a kid in the logging-heavy Pacific Northwest.

[RendeR]

Let me throw another possibility at you: it's still mild here, so this isn't a question of warmth at night. What if these are just two massive cookfires for a sizable army?Armies wouldn't have "massive" cookfires, groups of around 10 men each will prepare their own meals near their tents. Hence the "count the campfires and multiply by 10" theory of counting the enemy.

And again, an army would have openly blazing fires, they'd keep the smoke down to help hide the fact that they are there.

[WSUCougar]

Armies wouldn't have "massive" cookfires, groups of around 10 men each will prepare their own meals near their tents. Hence the "count the campfires and multiply by 10" theory of counting the enemy.
What if they really are roasting pigs?

Or what if these are ceremonial fires?

And again, an army would have openly blazing fires, they'd keep the smoke down to help hide the fact that they are there.
That's assuming that they don't want you to know they're there. :D

[cuervo72]

What if they really are roasting pigs?

Or what if these are ceremonial fires?


Could be a dual burial.

[WSUCougar]

The color of smoke is still important to this discussion but has not been answered yet as far as I can see (or I'm going blind, which would be good to know as well).
Sorry, I forgot to reply to this: the smoke was white/gray.