What the heck is going on in Paris????

[Dutch]

Looks like some nasty, nasty rioting going on.

French Police Arrest 250 As Arson Grows (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051105/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting_66;_ylt=AlurLKqrEf0SQpq3rQQB6ATgelIB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/France
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/nm/20051105/2005_11_04t093038_450x308_us_france_riots.jpg
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20051105/capt.par11211051652.france_rioting_par112.jpg

[terpkristin]

You know, I keep seeing in the news that there was a lot of rioting in Paris, but I never got a reason why.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who wondered.

I too would like to know what this is all about..

/tk

[Easy Mac]

Well, some police chased a couple of French-muslim kids (possibly of African descent (sp?)). During the chase, the kids either A)got killed by a high voltage in a power station; B) Went into the subway and got electrocuted; B) One of the two things happened, and the police caused it physically. Obviously, the rebellious youth of France and the Muslim population of that age are going apeshit, partly because of this, partly because they're tired of being targeted of the police. Not exactly the best way to express disdain for authority, but it's France.

Thus we have a less idyllic bastille.

[Easy Mac]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Paris_suburb_riots

dola, I must say though that I'm shocked by the complete lack of US coverage this is getting. I know we couldn't give a shit about the French, but the little news is staggering.

[wbatl1]

Also the minister of something or rather said something or rather that made the other immigrants in the northern suberbs(where this is happening) mad. The statement didn't mean much too me, but maybe it has some deeper context in French and in the culture there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

...and the police caused it physically.

Umm, that seems a little misleading there, at least in how I've read the story vs how I'm reading what you wrote.

For those who haven't followed this at all, the only thing police had to do with the deaths was investigating an apparent break-in.

The kids panicked, ran into an area they knew was highly dangerous & two of them were electrocuted ... but the police weren't anywhere near the scene at that point

The current at the sub-station is by Le Monde's sources to have been broken at 1812 - 22 minutes after the police operation ended.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399070.stm

[wbatl1]

It's been on CNN a little and has been in the middle pages of the papers, but this is big politically for France since some foresee it as another problem Chirac's regime must face and deal with successfully.

[Bubba Wheels]

Western Europe continues to become more and more 'Muslimized." This could just be the tip of a very large iceberg. I spent time in Germany in the 80s, and already people tell me that if I went back I wouldn't recognize it. Western Europe as we knew it is dying, or at least morphing radically into something never seen there before...Edward R. Murrow, reporting....

[Easy Mac]

Umm, that seems a little misleading there, at least in how I've read the story vs how I'm reading what you wrote.

For those who haven't followed this at all, the only thing police had to do with the deaths was investigating an apparent break-in.

The kids panicked, ran into an area they knew was highly dangerous & two of them were electrocuted ... but the police weren't anywhere near the scene at that point

The current at the sub-station is by Le Monde's sources to have been broken at 1812 - 22 minutes after the police operation ended.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399070.stm
Which is why I gave options. That means there are different versions to the stories.

[wbatl1]

Umm, that seems a little misleading there, at least in how I've read the story vs how I'm reading what you wrote.

For those who haven't followed this at all, the only thing police had to do with the deaths was investigating an apparent break-in.

The kids panicked, ran into an area they knew was highly dangerous & two of them were electrocuted ... but the police weren't anywhere near the scene at that point

The current at the sub-station is by Le Monde's sources to have been broken at 1812 - 22 minutes after the police operation ended.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399070.stm

to be fair to the kids' relatives...they say the kids were running from the police and ran into the substation..just to give their side of the story...But nothing is certain

[cartman]

Western Europe continues to become more and more 'Muslimized." This could just be the tip of a very large iceberg. I spent time in Germany in the 80s, and already people tell me that if I went back I wouldn't recognize it. Western Europe as we knew it is dying, or at least morphing radically into something never seen there before...Edward R. Murrow, reporting....

During my time the last few years in Europe, I haven't seen that much of on overt Muslim presence. In fact, I was in Paris a few days ago when all of this started. But that being said, the areas where the Muslims are located in Europe are slums, so most visitors aren't going to see them. It would be like someone in Europe reading about crack houses in the US, and wondering why they don't see any when they visit the US.

I wouldn't call this the end of Western Europe, anymore than the Rodney King riots were the end of the US as we knew it.

[Bubba Wheels]

During my time the last few years in Europe, I haven't seen that much of on overt Muslim presence. In fact, I was in Paris a few days ago when all of this started. But that being said, the areas where the Muslims are located in Europe are slums, so most visitors aren't going to see them. It would be like someone in Europe reading about crack houses in the US, and wondering why they don't see any when they visit the US.

I wouldn't call this the end of Western Europe, anymore than the Rodney King riots were the end of the US as we knew it.

Maybe so, but I base my forcast on the numbers. Western Europe's population is declining while the Muslim influx in both migration and birth rates is exploding. And this has been happening for some time now. The numbers tell the story and they don't lie.

[Easy Mac]

Muslims are the Mexicans of Europe... and yes, I'm Mexican

[Bubba Wheels]

Muslims are the Mexicans of Europe... and yes, I'm Mexican

Well, in a way you prove my point in that the U.S. population is projected to become majority Hispanic by 2050 based on birthrates in this country. Only it is and will happen much quicker in Europe and the Europeans are not even producing at a rate of replacement. Sounds coldy clinical but that's the facts.

The other major difference being, of course, that Hispanics are by and large Christian (Catholic and Evangelical) and not Muslim.

[Rizon]

Thanks for letting us off the hook, France!

[gstelmack]

to be fair to the kids' relatives...they say the kids were running from the police and ran into the substation..just to give their side of the story...But nothing is certain
Fine, they were running from the police. They still went into a dangerous place and screwed up. It's not like the police threw them into an electrical source to fry them or anything like it's being made out to be.

[Solecismic]

I was worried this was yet another item about Paris Hilton's sex life. Phew.

I'd venture that these riots are going to do more about changing public policies about accepting violent cultures in Europe more than anything before or after 9/11. Bush's popularity in Europe just rose 20 points in one week, I'd bet.

It's basically because the statements coming out of these areas are, "we want to govern ourselves, get your police out of here." The European Muslims have no interest whatsoever in helping create a melting pot European culture.

This is in sharp contrast to American Muslims, who tend to belong to mosques that do not preach violence.

[Easy Mac]

Fine, they were running from the police. They still went into a dangerous place and screwed up. It's not like the police threw them into an electrical source to fry them or anything like it's being made out to be.
I think any reasonable person would agree with that, but given whatever indignities they've suffered or believe they've suffered over there, they see circumstances as being different.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

I think this is more than a bunch of disorganized mobs. It may be fueled by Al Qaeda or other Islamo Fascist organizations that want to topple western Civ. All those flare ups across france almost simultaneously, I hope the rest of Europe also goes on the alert.

[Easy Mac]

I dunno, it's not really their style to make a statement without killing people. I don't think it's overly coincidental. People see what's going on in one town and it spreads.

[Buccaneer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Paris_suburb_riots

dola, I must say though that I'm shocked by the complete lack of US coverage this is getting. I know we couldn't give a shit about the French, but the little news is staggering.
How'd you come up with that??? It's been the lead story for part of the day everyday this week at cnn.com and foxnews.com, at least.

[Easy Mac]

Must be the parts while I'm at work.

[Joe Canadian]

The riots seem to be an example of the the straw breaking the camal's back... sort of like the LA Riots. The police incident sparked it, but the major underlying reason has more to do with the social climate in France, and how these minoritys ar being treated in general, than it has to do with what happened to those kids specificly.

[ISiddiqui]

It's basically because the statements coming out of these areas are, "we want to govern ourselves, get your police out of here." The European Muslims have no interest whatsoever in helping create a melting pot European culture.I was wondering when someone was going to make it anti-Muslem rant. Joe Canadian has the gist of the matter. These Muslim ghettos arose because the French policy towards immigrants. Yes, the Muslims moved en masse to the ghetto, but it was to have at least some sense of community. I mean France wants to ban every symbol of religion in public places (something that I think would rankle Christians from the US as well).

These ghettos have staggering unemployment and France seems unwilling to really do anything about it. These areas have mostly been devoid of police presence for a while now, which is where you get the 'we want to govern ourselves', since these communities HAVE been doing so.

Joe Canadian is correct (mostly) that it is akin to the LA riots. Rodney King really wasn't that big a deal, it was just the culmination of years of slights.

[Joe Canadian]

Bush's popularity in Europe just rose 20 points in one week, I'd bet.

I'll take that bet...

[Joe Canadian]

Edited...

Why is it that when Muslims are involved in something that leads to violence they are automaticlly lumped in with Islamic Extremists? When white people get violent, they aren't considered members of the KKK... or did I miss that memo as well?

[Solecismic]

It might be more useful to read the stories coming out of Paris rather than just name-call. But whatever floats your boat. This is quite different from the LA riots in that it's about wanting the French to stay out of their communities entirely.

They are creating their own discrimination by refusing to even try and join the country. For instance, many of them refuse to learn math in the schools because they claim the + sign is a Christian cross, and thus their religion prevents them from using it.

[Dutch]

For instance, many of them refuse to learn math in the schools because they claim the + sign is a Christian cross, and thus their religion prevents them from using it.
Of course, now GWB is scratching his head thinking, "That's not a Christian cross?"

[Easy Mac]

Of course, now GWB is scratching his head thinking, "Math?"
fixed that for you :)

[Joe Canadian]

It might be more useful to read the stories coming out of Paris rather than just name-call. But whatever floats your boat. This is quite different from the LA riots in that it's about wanting the French to stay out of their communities entirely.

They are creating their own discrimination by refusing to even try and join the country. For instance, many of them refuse to learn math in the schools because they claim the + sign is a Christian cross, and thus their religion prevents them from using it.

We must be getting our news from very different places... everything I've heard about this points to problems with the country's underemployed youth, specificlly in Muslim communities, as well as the difficulty North Africans have had in trying to integrate into the society in France.

[ISiddiqui]

This is quite different from the LA riots in that it's about wanting the French to stay out of their communities entirely.What do you expect when the French were perfectly happy to have these people boxed into their ghettos and didn't make any effort to even send in the police to respond to crime? When the only police presence is checkpoints to show identification (can you imagine that in the US?!). When you have basically have an seperate political enclave in the country, are you surprised when they bristle when the French want to reassert their authority?

And I'd rather speak to people from France about their views on the topic than read US reports of the situation in France.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... as well as the difficulty North Africans have had in trying to integrate into the society in France.

And certainly setting fire to the property of others is going to work wonders toward that goal.

[ISiddiqui]

And certainly setting fire to the property of others is going to work wonders toward that goal.Hey, these people are obviously pissed and don't think they'll be fully accepted by the French anyway.

French society has had a history of racism against groups like Jews and Arabs. Now it's coming to a head (at least with the Arab community, which has had a worse time of it).

[Joe Canadian]

And certainly setting fire to the property of others is going to work wonders toward that goal.

I wasn't condoning it... I was stating why they are happening.

[ISiddiqui]

I wasn't condoning it... I was stating why they are happening.I wonder why understanding why something happens equals condoning it to some (not saying JIMG was saying you were condoning it... he may have, but I'm not sure)?

[Solecismic]

ISiddiqui,

You know, on this issue we probably agree more than we disagree. French policies have been disasterous in handling the immigration. They've allowed, supported, even encouraged these ghettoes. They just throw a lot of money at the problem and hope it disappears. Which it won't.

I am reading stories coming out of France directly. Whether it's justified or not, the Muslims do not want the French police in their communities. But it's impossible to justify the looting and burning, or expect the police to stay away.

And I think we disagree in one area - is it acceptible to want to practice complete religious and cultural separatism and still expect the local government to fund everything? They are doing nothing themselves to ease the problems that have led to the 25% unemployment in some communities. They refuse to accept any of the blame themselves.

Since religion is much less important in Europe, mosques tend to be a lot more radical than they are in America. That adds to tensions as well. We've all heard the story that one of the London subway bombers stepped out of a brand-new mercedes before he blew himself up. The violence is not bred from desperation and poverty - it comes from the middle class. And in this case, a socialist country combined with high unemployment and religious/cultural isolation is a perfect tinder box for violence.

[ISiddiqui]

I am reading stories coming out of France directly. Whether it's justified or not, the Muslims do not want the French police in their communities. But it's impossible to justify the looting and burning, or expect the police to stay away.

And I think we disagree in one area - is it acceptible to want to practice complete religious and cultural separatism and still expect the local government to fund everything? They are doing nothing themselves to ease the problems that have led to the 25% unemployment in some communities. They refuse to accept any of the blame themselves.I seriously doubt that those in, say, Compton, want the cops in their communities as well. The government has left them alone for so long that they've created their own 'police'. I mean that is really why gangs exploded. Ways to protect yourself because the cops sure as Hell aren't going to do anything.

The French created this mentality. They ghettos were something they steered these people to and just ignored (kind of like we do with the inner city ghetto for the most part).

These people are very frustrated because the French have no interest in helping these people integrate. They are religious, but the French see that as a threat. Best to keep them out of the unifying ideal known as France. If you've seen or heard anything on the Algeria experiment, you'll know what I'm talking about. They are treating these ghettos as kind of an Algeria.

So its a situation RIPE for the tinderbox.

The thing that the US does so well is that even though the ghettos in the inner cities are isolated from local government and the police for the most part, we still bring them in as part of the unifying American culture (or attempt to). They may be gang members or their older brothers are in a gang, but at least we try to teach them skills (if they'll learn or not).

Oh.. and you aren't going to have many jobs around where the cops decide not to get involved. Capitalism REQUIRES the rule of law to be paramount. Where that doesn't apply, capitalism breaks down and chaos raises its ugly head.

[Klinglerware]

I think that the issues concerning the riots and integration doesn't have very much to do with Islam. Most of the people doing the rioting seem to be unemployed kids without much of a religious agenda.

An issue here certainly is the lack of integration of North Africans into French society. I think a couple of things are going on here which highlight big differences in French and US policy. First of all, the French have an officially sanctioned cultural standard that demands that immigrants assimilate into the national culture, or they cannot be considered French. Witness the destruction of the regional languages of Brittany and Provencal--those people were already there and even they had to conform to the French standard. There is no counterpart official US cultural standard, the US is more tolerant of multiculturalism and ethnic minorities have more leeway in the US to keep more of their cultural practices without penalty.

The other issue has to do with the anti-discrimination. The French don't seem to take their anti-discrimination laws very seriously. At least in the US, immigrants and minorities have a chance to be rewarded if they work hard and play the game by making some effort to integrate into American society. In France, if you are going to be discriminated against anyway, then what's the point of even trying to assimilate?

[Glengoyne]

I seriously doubt that those in, say, Compton, want the cops in their communities as well. The government has left them alone for so long that they've created their own 'police'. I mean that is really why gangs exploded. Ways to protect yourself because the cops sure as Hell aren't going to do anything.
... I'm sorry, but I call bullshit.

The gangs exploded because crime and drug dealing are easy ways to make a buck. When you have a buck or two, you want to protect it. Most of society depend on the Police for that, but if what you are doing is illegal, then a gang is a pretty good way of protecting what you've got.

[Klinglerware]

these muslim immigrants are doing noting to better their situation within the norms of the society.

Again, this is not necessarily true. Many of the kids rioting are actually 2nd and 3rd generation. The problem is not education--they receive excellent education, certainly better than the American underclass gets. The problem is discrimination, even if their families have been here for a generation or two, the are still not considered "French". Education alone will not protect you from discrimination.

The UK and even the US models of integration, while by no means perfect, have done a better job than the French of getting more of their minority populations into the middle-class. Why don't Arab-American's riot? Well, since the median income for Arab-American families is at around 50k+ (better than average), they are certainly doing very well here--the American system is allowing them to succeed economically. French of North African descent don't have the same access to opportunities. Allowing for more access to economic opportunity could go a long way in stabilizing the situation long term.

[Joe Canadian]

So basically the muslims move to France and want the government to give them a ton of breaks like they do here. They don't, and ghettos are born because these muslim immigrants are doing noting to better their situation within the norms of the society. They want to take over their own areas and ignore the authority of the nation that was good enough to welcome them in the first place. Then some kids whose parents have been telling them to resist the french authority run into a place they shouldn't be and get electrocuted. The muslim immigrants, instead of blaming themselves and poor parenting, blame the french. The french, in order to seem like they are fair, attempt to contain the rioting.

They need to use real bullets.

Except that's not what the riots are about... but okay.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm sorry, but I call bullshit.

The gangs exploded because crime and drug dealing are easy ways to make a buck. When you have a buck or two, you want to protect it. Most of society depend on the Police for that, but if what you are doing is illegal, then a gang is a pretty good way of protecting what you've got.And why did crime and drug dealing become so central? There is plenty of drug dealing in the suburbs as well, but you don't see gangs. Why is that? It's probably because there is a substantial police presence there. When the police retreat out of an area, they have to be able to take care of their own.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

To any French FOFC members: How is the media covering the events there? Is there a feeling of ''Life goes on amidst the chaos'' or are people staying at their respected houses? Just would like to know how the French feel about this.

[GrantDawg]

And why did crime and drug dealing become so central? There is plenty of drug dealing in the suburbs as well, but you don't see gangs. Why is that? It's probably because there is a substantial police presence there. When the police retreat out of an area, they have to be able to take care of their own..


There are gangs in the Suburbs. Don't fool yourself.

[JonInMiddleGA]

There are gangs in the Suburbs. Don't fool yourself.

What he said.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

The low income French Moroccan need to ally themselves with the Bourgeoisie and, try to depose the Old Regime and, re institute a new monarch and, when that doesnt work do it again....

[st.cronin]

And I think we disagree in one area - is it acceptible to want to practice complete religious and cultural separatism and still expect the local government to fund everything?

The answer to that question is OF COURSE NOT.

For you historical-minded, this situation is exactly how the Israeli-Arab conflict started. The difference is that France is surrounded by friends (more or less).

[flere-imsaho]

And certainly setting fire to the property of others is going to work wonders toward that goal.

I'm sure that's all the North African immigrants in France have done for decades now.... :rolleyes:

[flere-imsaho]

There are gangs in the Suburbs. Don't fool yourself.

Yeah, but a bunch of white kids down at the 7-11 isn't really the same as the Crips & Bloods, you know?

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

The major concern is that these Islamo-Fasciss may and, have the power to topple the French gov't. by forcing new elections and putting who they want into power.

[illinifan999]

This is interesting.

[Joe Canadian]

The major concern is that these Islamo-Fasciss may and, have the power to topple the French gov't. by forcing new elections and putting who they want into power.

If by putting the people they want in power equals putting people in power that will actually do something about the horrendus social problems, then I'm all for that. The unemployment rate in France for people of African decent is comething like 25%...

But if you mean that there's some real concern, not to be confused with silly fearmongering, that somehow Islamic Fundamentalism is going to take over France... well then we're clearly talking about two different countries called France.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah, but a bunch of white kids down at the 7-11 isn't really the same as the Crips & Bloods, you know?

Flere, you're gonna have to trust me on this ... the gangs I'm referring to definitely aren't the "white kids down at the Circle K" (you don't see many 7-11's here anymore).

[GrantDawg]

Yeah, but a bunch of white kids down at the 7-11 isn't really the same as the Crips & Bloods, you know?
Travel down to a suburban police station, and I think you would be shocked. There have been Crips in this area since I was in high school, and this would have been considered more "rural" than suburbs then. Gangs are everywhere there are drugs and boys wanting to feel big. Gangs have moved beyond the inter-city a long time ago.

[Ragone]

Is it possible to surrender to your own countrymen? with that lame joke out of the way.. i hope everyone is safe and unharmed

[Marc Vaughan]

It's basically because the statements coming out of these areas are, "we want to govern ourselves, get your police out of here." The European Muslims have no interest whatsoever in helping create a melting pot European culture.

This is in sharp contrast to American Muslims, who tend to belong to mosques that do not preach violence.

Please don't tar all European Muslims with the same brush, each nation and religion has its outspoken idiots, as usual the majority are normal sane people who are happy getting on with their lives, media skew is easy to achieve and is largely aimed at making people worried about the unknown (because it sells papers etc.).

(I'm a christian, but I personally hate bad mouthing of any religion, everyone should have the right to practice their beliefs - remember bad things can be done in the name of any relgion or group of people, it doesn't mean that the ideal or group of people is bad ... just that someones using it as an excuse imho)

[Marc Vaughan]

They are creating their own discrimination by refusing to even try and join the country. For instance, many of them refuse to learn math in the schools because they claim the + sign is a Christian cross, and thus their religion prevents them from using it.

Out of interest where did you hear this? - it sounds like inaccurate media spin in the utmost to me, not least because in England at least kids from a many minority backgrounds have been out-performing* 'locals' for quite a while ..

*On a global average sort of scale

[Marc Vaughan]

The major concern is that these Islamo-Fasciss may and, have the power to topple the French gov't. by forcing new elections and putting who they want into power.

I really really hope that was a sarcastic comment rather than a serious one ... when there were the riots in America did you worry about the American goverment being overthrown because of them?

[Klinglerware]

Please don't tar all European Muslims with the same brush, each nation and religion has its outspoken idiots, as usual the majority are normal sane people who are happy getting on with their lives, media skew is easy to achieve and is largely aimed at making people worried about the unknown (because it sells papers etc.).

(I'm a christian, but I personally hate bad mouthing of any religion, everyone should have the right to practice their beliefs - remember bad things can be done in the name of any relgion or group of people, it doesn't mean that the ideal or group of people is bad ... just that someones using it as an excuse imho)

Agreed--it certainly seems that the response by some of the Americans on this board is rooted in their own pre-conceptions about muslims. Never mind that Muslim-Americans (of Middle Eastern descent) can be considered an economic success story, many Americans will always consider them potential killers.

Also agreed with your comments about Solecismic's addition sign = christian cross = bad = I won't learn math: that sounds like it was sourced from rumor-mongering on par with the baseless "Elders of Zion" and "no Jews in the WTC on 9/11" drivel...

[Solecismic]

Please don't make assumptions about me without basis. My comments were well founded. Perhaps Europeans have turned a blind eye to this for too long.

http://www.proche-orient.info/images/mbd/rapport_obin.pdf

This is a study from the French national education department. It's obviously quite shocking, but unless the government itself is putting out propaganda on a Henry Ford level, it's painting a very different picture than the politically correct stereotype.

[Solecismic]

Here's a summary of the French report I used excerpted from the Weekly Standard (which is conservative, but not radically so). This is in English. My French is very rusty, so I did not read the original in full:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0RMQ/is_32_10/ai_n13782068


AN OFFICIAL REPORT dealing with religious expression in French schools has become a must read for anyone interested in the Islamization of France. Written under the auspices of the top national education official, Jean-Pierre Obin, the report was not initially released by the Ministry of Education. But it was leaked on the Internet in March and now can be found in its entirety at www.procheorient.info and other websites.

The 37-page report is the product of a study carried out between October 2003 and May 2004 by a team of 10 inspectors, including Obin. In addition to examining the recent literature on religion and schools in France, they visited 61 academic and vocational high schools in 24 departements, chosen not as a cross-section of public schools, but rather as schools typical of those where religious expression has become a problem because of the high concentration of ethnic and religious minorities. Many are located in ethnically segregated neighborhoods now often referred to, the report says, "by analogy with the United States, as 'ghettos.'"

In each school, inspectors interviewed the management team, staff, and teachers, as well as lay people from the community, including parents, social workers, and elected officials. In addition, regional education officials were asked to submit accounts of their experiences in primary schools.

Amid much diversity--some of the schools were rural, some urban; some had fairly homogeneous student populations, others immigrants from many different countries--the inspectors report two consistent findings: a marked increase in religious expression, especially Muslim expression, in schools; and denial on the part of officials at all levels--from the classroom, to the principal's office, to the regional administration--that this phenomenon is occurring.

The researchers began by studying the neighborhoods surrounding the schools. Mostly, these were depressed areas abandoned by anyone with a secure income. The report describes the flight of "French" residents and "European" shops--sometimes after they have been the targets of violence--in tandem with the arrival of immigrants and the collapse of real estate values.

Scores of informants told the Obin team that these neighborhoods were undergoing a "rapid and recent swing" toward Islamization, thanks to the growing influence of religious activists. These young men, intense and highly intellectual in their piety, are sometimes former residents of the neighborhood who have been to prison, where they were converted to Islam. More often, however, they are educated men with degrees from universities in France, North Africa, or the Middle East. They have come to be known as "bearded ones" (distinctive beards are a marker of Muslim purists and extremists--think of bin Laden) or "big brothers" (a name evocative of the worldwide jihadist movement's Muslim Brotherhood), and they offer young people a proud identity--Muslim--in place of the dismal identity of the unassimilated immigrant.

The biggest social change entailed by this Islamization, Obin reports, is a deterioration in the position of females. Teenage girls are forbidden to play sports and are constantly watched by an informal religious police made up of young men, sometimes their own younger brothers. Makeup, skirts, and form-fitting dresses are forbidden; dark, loose trousers are the strongly recommended attire. To go to the blackboard in front of a class, some Muslim girls put on long coats. Often, they are forced to wear the headscarf, or hijab, and forbidden to frequent coed movie theaters, community centers, and gyms, or even to go out at all on weekends. Lots of young women were afraid to tell the Obin team what punishments are in store for them if they disobey. Not only female students but also female teachers, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, are frequently subjected to sexist remarks by male teenagers.

In primary schools, the report cites instances of first grade boys' refusing to participate in coed activities and Muslim children's refusing to sing, dance, or draw a face. In one school, restrooms were segregated: some for Muslim students and some for "French." Some lunchrooms were segregated, by section or table. Some students required halal meat; at one school, the principal provided only halal meat for everyone.

With Muslim proselytizing on the rise, the report states that students are under pressure to observe Ramadan, the annual month during which Muslims fast during the day. In some high schools, it is simply impossible for Muslim kids not to join in, whether they like it or not. Obin cites one student who tried to commit suicide because of intimidation and threats from other kids over this issue. Obin also emphasizes that many conversions to Islam are taking place under duress.

Inevitably, the report records rampant "Judeophobia," to use the term in vogue in France. Among even the youngest students, the term "Jew" has become the all-purpose insult. Obin deplores the fact that principals and teachers do not strenuously object to this, treating it simply as part of the youth culture. Even more serious is the increase in assaults on Jews or those presumed to be Jewish. Usually the assailants are Muslim students. Sometimes the victims are, too: One Turkish high-school girl was relentlessly harassed and bullied at school because her country is an ally of Israel. The section of the report on anti-Semitism winds up with this sad conclusion: In France today, Jewish kids are not welcome at every school. Many are forced to switch schools or even conceal their identity to escape anti-Semitism.

According to the report, Muslim students perceive a large gap between the French and themselves. Even though most of the Muslim kids are actually French citizens, they see themselves as Muslims first, and more and more of them hail Osama bin Laden as their hero. In their eyes, he represents a victorious Islam triumphing over the West.

Finally, the report discusses a host of difficulties teachers encounter in dealing with specific subjects in the classroom. Most Muslim kids refuse to participate in sports or swimming, the girls out of modesty, the boys because they do not want to swim in "girls' water" or "non-Muslim water." When it comes to literature, French philosophers such as Voltaire and Rousseau are very often boycotted because of their supposed Islamophobia. Moliere, the father of French satiric comedy, is among the writers most often boycotted.

As for history, Muslim students object to its Judeo-Christian bias and blatant falsehood. They loudly protest the Crusades, and commonly deny the Holocaust. Under the circumstances, many teachers censor their own material, often skipping entire topics, like the history of Israel or of Christianity. The report cites one teacher who keeps a Koran on his desk for reference whenever a thorny issue arises. It cites Muslim students who refuse to use the plus sign in mathematics because it looks like a cross. Field trips, especially to churches, cathedrals, and monasteries, are boycotted.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, these pathologies are now present across France. Muslim "ghettos" are found not only in the suburbs of major cities but in towns and villages as well. Obin describes them as islands of counterculture, sealed off and opposed to modern democratic society.

Summing up, Obin explains his disturbing findings as the result primarily of indoctrination orchestrated over years by international Muslim organizations. From an early age, students are taught what to think, what to believe, and to regard their school teachers as liars. The goal of the radical groups seeking to segregate Muslim communities and denouncing integration as oppression, Obin writes, is to take the Muslim residents of France out of the French nation and make them think of themselves as part of the international Muslim community.

In a particularly interesting observation, Obin notes that it is the schools that have reached accommodations with the extremists that are most plagued by violence against girls, Jews, and teachers. Schools that refuse to tolerate the intolerable have coped much better with the problems described in the report. As a result, Obin calls for a policy of no compromise with Islamist demands.

Still unclear is how French educators can be expected to hang tough while their government refuses to own up to the problem--as demonstrated by its failure to make public the Obin report. With the Muslim share of the French population already over 10 percent and growing, the schools are only the tip of the iceberg.

Olivier Guitta is a freelance writer specializing in the Middle East and Europe.

COPYRIGHT 2005 News America Incorporated
COPYRIGHT 2005 Gale Group

[Solecismic]

Never mind that Muslim-Americans (of Middle Eastern descent) can be considered an economic success story, many Americans will always consider them potential killers.

I don't, at least. The problem isn't the people, it's the radical churches gaining a stronghold in the community. That just hasn't happened in America.

It has happened in France in particular due to extraordinary mishandling of a very large amount of immigration. Their current economic and social policies are different from ours, and created a perfect storm situation. This week's riots are just the start.

[Marc Vaughan]

Please don't make assumptions about me without basis. My comments were well founded. Perhaps Europeans have turned a blind eye to this for too long.

http://www.proche-orient.info/images/mbd/rapport_obin.pdf

This is a study from the French national education department. It's obviously quite shocking, but unless the government itself is putting out propaganda on a Henry Ford level, it's painting a very different picture than the politically correct stereotype.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth Jim - but some of the stuff you indicated doesn't ring 'true' (I didn't see a reference to the addition symbol in that report for instance).

Secondly you were indicating 'European' moslems, as I indicated while there might be extremists in any religion or race tarring millions of people with the same brush is unfair.

I can drudge up reports showing children of recent immigrant families in the UK surpassing 'native' kids if you want to balance this.

I know many moslems living in England and have found them to be just as nice, pleasant, rude, arrogant, whatever as any other race - there is good and bad in all aspects of society imho and judging someone because of their religion or colour isn't something I approve of.

If it makes you feel better the first school my wife and daughter went to in the UK had 60% minority kids in it, the level of schooling there was attrocious at least in part because a fraaction of the minority parents didn't want their kids to learn English and didn't attempt to integrate into things or assist the school in any way - despite the school doing their best to assist them.

The school was in a reasonably poor catchement area and I transferred Haley out of there as soon as I could, do I view this as all immigrants having that view of schooling or integrating into society HECK no ...

I grew up in a relatively poor area myself, where being a 'swot' was something which could get you beaten up regularly by your peers (I had a friend who was regularly chased through his neighbourhood because he was a studious person and wanted to go to university, I had other friends who were actively ridiculed by their parents when they attempted to do homework or revise).

Such 'negative' peer pressure exists in all creeds/races/religions in the wrong areas either in a passive nature (ie. parents not seeing the point of schooling because they never did anything at school) or a more agressive nature (ie. actually obstructing the school or dissuading people from trying).

As I've indicated before there is good and bad in every society/race/religion - tarring people with a brush means you look for either the good or bad and ignore the rest, both are equally dangerous imho ...

[Marc Vaughan]

I don't, at least. The problem isn't the people, it's the radical churches gaining a stronghold in the community. That just hasn't happened in America.

It has happened in France in particular due to extraordinary mishandling of a very large amount of immigration. Their current economic and social policies are different from ours, and created a perfect storm situation. This week's riots are just the start.

It isn't a 'radical church' issue in France as I understand it to be honest, its more a social economic problem in the way that it generally is with the case of riots.

France allegedly doesn't give immigrants the same opportunity - this breeds resentment and has spilled over into the riots.

Nothing to do with a 'radical church' - you victimise any group of people within a country and you'll find a similar situation imho ... its happened in numerous countries in the past where people feel they have a 'bad deal'.

Do the people rioting have a point, to be frank I don't know because I haven't looked into the grievances which I've seen claimed - there's probably some stuff which is valid and others which aren't ... but personally I'm never a fan of violent demonstration as a way of expressing things.

If you're interest the Times has a short piece on the causes which you can read here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,542-1856741,00.html

[Solecismic]

I'm not tarring people with a brush. I'm saying that in some places in Europe, radical Islamic churches have fostered a culture of intolerance that's responsible for these riots. And the recent attack in the Underground, for that matter.

If what you got out of it is that I think all Muslims are bad, please read what I've written again. I don't think that way at all.

Go back a few hundred years and you'd find Muslim cultures leading the world in education, in science. There's nothing about the people themselves that should be construed as valid reasons for racial intolerance or hatred. It's all about the radical mosques.

And, by the way, that plus-sign comment is in the report I quoted. You must have skimmed over it.

[Joe Canadian]

It isn't a 'radical church' issue in France as I understand it to be honest, its more a social economic problem in the way that it generally is with the case of riots.

France allegedly doesn't give immigrants the same opportunity - this breeds resentment and has spilled over into the riots.

Nothing to do with a 'radical church' - you victimise any group of people within a country and you'll find a similar situation imho ... its happened in numerous countries in the past where people feel they have a 'bad deal'.

This is exactly what I've been hearing & reading... and every single person I've discussed this issue with, beyond this particular forum, has heard the same thing.

[Icy]

The sad thing is that i see Spain having same problem in 3 or 4 years as we are being invaded right now and we are starting to have inmigration problems when we never had them in the past. I don't have any problem with the guys who come to Spain with a work permit, but the problem is that we have waves of inmigrants jumping the south frontier everyday, that won't have a work as are not qualified, that can only be thiefs or drug dealers to survive here, that have like 10 new babies in 10 years that of course won't have work either. Our prissons can't handle now the amount of inmigrants, and we never had a high crime until now.

For example, in my wife's parents small town, a month ago a 25 years old muslim took a knife and started to run in the street kinfing all the random women he found, one of them died, the other 3 were hurt until the police caught him, of course the police can't even touch him or they would go to jail themselves, we have pussy laws and a goberment that wants to look so open with inmigration, when the majority of ppl in Spain is agaisnt it. Even the European goberment is telling ours that we need to stop that. Luckily this is probably going to cost them the next elections, but still 3 years away from now.

The muslims are even making fun saying that they are going to conquest Spain again as they did in the past, but this time having tons of sons while Spanish have usually only 1 or 2. Also they are demanding a home (wtf? i worked to pay mine), they demand a work (like all the Spanish young guys) they demand free health care as Spanish have (yeah but we pay taxes while they don't), etc etc. We are not ready for that, our financial system can't handle this amount of inmigrants that don't pay taxes but have the same free services that Spanish have. They are not trying to be part of our culture, they demand their own churchs paid by the goberment (and our stupid goberment pays them) they now demand that their girls can't do sports at school as their religion is agaisnt that, but of course their girls pass the sports exams, etc etc, i can put tons of samples about this, and our pussy goberment is giving them all that they ask for, so they won't feel bad in a new country... wtf, nobody told them to come here.

I haven't ever been racist, but now i must admit i am vs some cultures, not races, as the skin colour has nothing to do with how you behave. This feeling is growing and growing in Spain, and in a few years this is going to cause big problems and fights betwen cultures.

[Joe Canadian]

of course the police can't even touch him or they would go to jail themselves

Why not?

I haven't ever been racist, but now i must admit i am vs some cultures, not races, as the skin colour has nothing to do with how you behave. This feeling is growing and growing in Spain, and in a few years this is going to cause big problems and fights betwen cultures.

I hope you remember that there is a difference between Islam & Radical Fundementalist Islam. Too many times people use the terms as meaning the same thing...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Too many times people use the terms as meaning the same thing...

And too many times people fail to acknowledge that the differences aren't as great as they wish they were.

[Joe Canadian]

And too many times people fail to acknowledge that the differences aren't as great as they wish they were.

That's funny.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's funny.

Actually, what's funny is the abundance of 21 y/o know-it-alls, but hey ... everybody needs a little comedy now & then.

[Joe Canadian]

Actually, what's funny is the abundance of 21 y/o know-it-alls, but hey ... everybody needs a little comedy now & then.

I don't remember claiming to know-it-all... and I'm not exactly sure what my age has to do with any of this. Just because I've disagreed with a few of your opinions over the last few days, doesn't mean I claim to know everything.

[flere-imsaho]

The major concern is that these Islamo-Fasciss may and, have the power to topple the French gov't. by forcing new elections and putting who they want into power.

They're more likely to get Nicholas Sarkozy, the conservative, bordering on oppressive, interior minister who enjoys a 57% approval rating despite calling the rioters "scum".

So no, I don't think that's the rioters' aim. I imagine the rioters' goals are like that of most rioters: break stuff up and loot stuff (not necessarily in that order).

[st.cronin]

I am 99% sure that bin Laden is on record as saying that France, Spain and Portugal are 'natural muslim states,' or something to that effect. I don't know what that has to do with anything.

[st.cronin]

They're more likely to get Nicholas Sarkozy, the conservative, bordering on oppressive, interior minister who enjoys a 57% approval rating despite calling the rioters "scum".

I don't know much about European politics but I strongly approve of calling rioters and looters "scum."

[flere-imsaho]

Flere, you're gonna have to trust me on this ... the gangs I'm referring to definitely aren't the "white kids down at the Circle K" (you don't see many 7-11's here anymore).

No. Let's not let semantics trip us up.

While there may be "gangs" in the suburbs, they serve largely as distribution channels for drugs and not as de facto law & order providers as they do in, say, rundown inner city areas.

I think that's the difference ISiddiqui was trying to point out. It's certainly the difference I'd make, and I'd say it's a big difference.

[flere-imsaho]

And too many times people fail to acknowledge that the differences aren't as great as they wish they were.

Is it OK if I feel the same way about Christianity and Radical Evangelical Christianity?

[flere-imsaho]

Actually, what's funny is the abundance of 21 y/o know-it-alls

Pathetic. You can do better than this, Jon.

[flere-imsaho]

I am 99% sure that bin Laden is on record as saying that France, Spain and Portugal are 'natural muslim states,' or something to that effect. I don't know what that has to do with anything.

Well, I know I'm shocked by this news. What are you going to tell me next, that the sun will rise in the east this morning?

[flere-imsaho]

I don't know much about European politics but I strongly approve of calling rioters and looters "scum."

My understanding, from a BBC report this morning, was that it was in the context of implying that their entire community were also scum.

[Raiders Army]

Do the female looters shave their legs?

[Raiders Army]

Dola, and I wonder what Darkiller thinks about this.

[flere-imsaho]

Dola, and I wonder what Darkiller thinks about this.

Or Triple-F.

[ISiddiqui]

Is it OK if I feel the same way about Christianity and Radical Evangelical Christianity?
Yeah, I wonder how people will react if you like Jack Chick with the Pope ;). I'm sure they won't appreciate you saying the difference is smaller than they believe, huh? Of course since they aren't Muslim or know any Muslims, they can make those kind of statements about them.

[Darkiller]

Dola, and I wonder what Darkiller thinks about this.
I was at a party saturday evening in the northern subburbs of Paris and actually saw a few cars burning.
Not a pretty picture (outside of Paris) and the police is on red alert every evenings. Downtown Paris though (where I live) there is basically nothing, no incidents to speak of.

[Raiders Army]

Good to hear you're okay!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Pathetic. You can do better than this, Jon.

Actually Flere, I'm completely serious, albeit much kinder & gentler than I really feel about it.

My reaction to these inexperienced "geniuses" alternates between annoyance & amusement, but the more active of them seem to land on "annoying" more often, not to mentioned that the more often they speak the more obvious their ignorance becomes.

You may be right though, perhaps I should do better ... I probably ought to be less tolerant of their foolishness.

[flere-imsaho]

My reaction to these inexperienced "geniuses" alternates between annoyance & amusement, but the more active of them seem to land on "annoying" more often, not to mentioned that the more often they speak the more obvious their ignorance becomes.

Give me a break. You implied that there's little difference between Islam & Radical Fundamentalist Islam. If this isn't a "know-it-all" attitude, then I don't know what is.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Give me a break. You implied that there's little difference between Islam & Radical Fundamentalist Islam. If this isn't a "know-it-all" attitude, then I don't know what is.

No, I stated that the difference isn't as great as some people like to pretend it is.

The events in France provide a pretty good illustration of my point ...
unless you'd like to stipulate that the rioters are all "Radical Fundamentalists".

[flere-imsaho]

No, I stated that the difference isn't as great as some people like to pretend it is.

Jon, is there a difference between Islam and Radical Fundamentalist Islam? How would you describe this difference? Given your reply to Joe Canadian, I'd have to say that you imply there's little difference. Clarify that for me.

The events in France provide a pretty good illustration of my point ...
unless you'd like to stipulate that the rioters are all "Radical Fundamentalists".

Are you stipulating that the rioters are rioting because they're Muslims?

[Anthony]

i find myself agreeing with Jon more and more lately. i think where we differ is that i'm more upfront with my opinion, whereas Jon (as much as he can rile up people with his extreme views) comes off as if what he writes is a much more PC version of what he really feels. i can read between the lines (as i'm sure many can) of what he really means to say.

all in all, i'd take Jon and his extreme, but honest, conservative opinion over someone else who wants to act all "we should respect everyone regardless of the few bad apples" hokiness. sorry, if i've been bit by stray dogs countless times before, sooner or later i'm going to assume every dog has the capacity to lash out and attack me, and that it's up to each individual dog i encounter to prove me otherwise.

[Klinglerware]

I don't, at least. The problem isn't the people, it's the radical churches gaining a stronghold in the community. That just hasn't happened in America.

It has happened in France in particular due to extraordinary mishandling of a very large amount of immigration. Their current economic and social policies are different from ours, and created a perfect storm situation. This week's riots are just the start.

I don't disagree with you--and I will accept some of your points re Islamization. However, in fact, economic and social differences between the US and France are still at the heart of this. In the US, "radical churches" have not taken root here because there are alternate economic incentives that inhibit radicalization. You see this with Radical Christians in America--while there is certainly some peer pressure to conform, especially in rural areas (forced school prayer, FCA, etc), generally people with extremist Christian views tend to hide them for fear of economic retribution (loss of business or one's job, etc.). In France, where discrimination is more open, there is much more of an opening for extremism to gain a foothold. Why moderate if there is no incentive to moderate?

[Marc Vaughan]

And too many times people fail to acknowledge that the differences aren't as great as they wish they were.

Speaking as someone who knows a fair few moslems in England, the vast majority of them approach their religion the way most christians do - 'tis great around the holiday season and if they're particularly devout then they'll do their thang regularly at church, but don't let it get in the way of football (or whatever their sport/hobby might be).

Radically fired people of any religion including christianity have in the past and will continue in the future to cause problems for societies, its not just a moslem problem or even something connected particularly to religion.

I am personally much more afraid of peoples anti-moslem vibes which seem to becoming more and more 'accepted' by society than I am of moslem fundamentalists myself.

[Marc Vaughan]

No, I stated that the difference isn't as great as some people like to pretend it is.

The events in France provide a pretty good illustration of my point ...
unless you'd like to stipulate that the rioters are all "Radical Fundamentalists".

You're quite right in one way - most rioters aren't 'Radical Fundamentalists' ... from the reports I've seen a lot of them are African and probably not Moslem at all, beside imho the riots have nothing to do with religion and much more to do with a combination of:

* Frustration amongst that section of society and an unfortunate spark
* The chance to smash up stuff and steal other stuff

(same as in most inner city riots)

[MrBigglesworth]

It has happened in France in particular due to extraordinary mishandling of a very large amount of immigration. Their current economic and social policies are different from ours, and created a perfect storm situation. This week's riots are just the start.
It should be noted that certain conservative elements in our own country are advocating policies that led to this condition in France. For example, not allowing citizenship by birth.

[Marc Vaughan]

PS> Note to self - this is why I try and keep out of these discussions ....

(breathes calmly and deeply while chanting a nice meditation mantra .... Hell Atlantic decides this mantra is 'different' to what he's used to and therefore probably not a good thing and beats the crap out of me .. just to be on the safe side*)

*My favourite two sayins as a kid:
(1) Always get your revenge in first, safest that way
(2) Never kick a man when he's down, he might get up again

[GrantDawg]

It should be noted that certain conservative elements in our own country are advocating policies that led to this condition in France. For example, not allowing citizenship by birth.
Yup, I notice much of the same philosophy in the isolationist agenda (not just conservitive, though. There are many anti-immigration liberal groups) that would result in this kind of conditions. The more we seperate groups from the over-all culture, the more likely things like this will flair up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

(2) Never kick a man when he's down, he might get up again

Not if you kick him effectively & efficiently enough.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Is there an update on the news regarding if the violence has spread. Im getting nada from CNN (just alot of stuff about the captured prison escapee).

[Anthony]

i have no problem at all admitting i'm prejudiced. i share my unpleasant views with other like-minded people (ie, friends/family). i don't try to change people's minds or stand on soapboxes. in the comfort of my own home i'm allowed to have my own views on certain types of people, certain cultures, whatever. because i live in NYC i have to coexist with many types of people i don't particularly care to rub elbows with (figurtively speaking), so i'm more tolerant than you average prejudiced person. i wasn't born to make other people feel good about themselves or to make them feel welcome so i don't feel ashamed about the views i have. what you see is what you get though, if you ask me honest questions you get honest answers. i'm not ashamed.

[st.cronin]

Is there an update on the news regarding if the violence has spread. Im getting nada from CNN (just alot of stuff about the captured prison escapee).

I caught a headline earlier about 'first fatality.' Not sure what happened.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/

Sounds like Halloween in Madison.

[JonInMiddleGA]

i wasn't born to make other people feel good about themselves or to make them feel welcome ...

Neither was anybody else HA, the difference in me/you & a lot of them is that we've: a) figured that out & b) accepted it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I caught a headline earlier about 'first fatality.' Not sure what happened.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20051107/D8DNRHK8A.html

A 61-year-old man also died Monday of wounds sustained in an attack as he tried to put out a trash can fire, the first fatality since the unrest began.
.... The victim was identified as Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec, a retired auto industry worker who died after being beaten by an attacker. He was trying to extinguish a trash can fire Friday at his housing project in the northeastern suburb of Stains when an attacker caught him by surprise and beat him into a coma, police said.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Are there any reports of unrest spreading into Belgium, Spain and, Germany?

[st.cronin]

Are there any reports of unrest spreading into Belgium, Spain and, Germany?

Yes to Belgium and Germany.

[MrBigglesworth]

Neither was anybody else HA, the difference in me/you & a lot of them is that we've: a) figured that out & b) accepted it.
Funny how it's always white Christian males in this country that have this attitude, isn't it?

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

This is a good year for all chaos theorists and, sociologists. Can't wait to read the scholarly magazine articles and, books that come out regarding relationships between socio economic dispositions and the riots, looting et. ala.

[Anthony]

Funny how it's always white Christian males in this country that have this attitude, isn't it?

i'm half Italian, half Dominican (spanish), fwiw, so i guess i won't be receiving an invitation to any White America/KKK balls anytime soon. :redface:

[Klinglerware]

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20051107/D8DNRHK8A.html

A 61-year-old man also died Monday of wounds sustained in an attack as he tried to put out a trash can fire, the first fatality since the unrest began.
.... The victim was identified as Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec, a retired auto industry worker who died after being beaten by an attacker. He was trying to extinguish a trash can fire Friday at his housing project in the northeastern suburb of Stains when an attacker caught him by surprise and beat him into a coma, police said.

To interject a semi-trollish comment: Imagine the number of fatalities in these riots if France didn't have strict gun control laws...

[st.cronin]

To interject a semi-trollish comment: Imagine the number of fatalities in these riots if France didn't have strict gun control laws...

trollish response: what a shame

[JonInMiddleGA]

To interject a semi-trollish comment: Imagine the number of fatalities in these riots if France didn't have strict gun control laws...

Eh, that's not really all that trollish.

Trollish would be something like "So, what's the over/under on a French surrender?"

:D

[Wolfpack]

I'll go for a hybrid of the two. If there had been guns involved, how long would it take before the French were overrun?

[st.cronin]

Eh, that's not really all that trollish.

Trollish would be something like "So, what's the over/under on a French surrender?"

:D

*yoink*

I steal your joke.

[Klinglerware]

I'll go for a hybrid of the two. If there had been guns involved, how long would it take before the French were overrun?

Touche...

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

I think if this spread to bordering nations then the proletariat should and will ally with the bourgeoisie and will rise up and topple the old regimes, but both will be fractured because the middle class will realize they have more in common with the old regime than the new. Where is Claus von Metternich when we need him.

Edit: What the French need to do is look back into their own history and, like in the French Revolutions till 1848 send the military in when the barricades go up and, bring back law & order in the streets then talk of reforms and, such.

Edit 2: I guess there's now a curfew across France and, French police apparently want the military to intervene.1

1. As per FSN 2310 hrs pst.

[Marc Vaughan]

Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Henderson, Nevada
Posts: 3,319

I think if this spread to bordering nations then the proletariat should and will ally with the bourgeoisie and will rise up and topple the old regimes, but both will be fractured because the middle class will realize they have more in common with the old regime than the new. Where is Claus von Metternich when we need him.

Hey I get the chance to play at being the 'Scarlet Pimple' again :D

[fantastic flying froggies]

Or Triple-F.
I've been reading this thread with attention, but had so far kept out of it, but since you asked...

First of all, this a very complex issue, with a lot of different causes. Not quite the simple black and white view that some people would like it to be.

Also, I really get the impression this is blown way out of proportion by foreign media. This is not a full blown riot, we're talking about a few hundreds kids (nationwide) roving in bands, breaking and burning stuff. The worst part is they're often burning the cars of their parents/neighbors/friends, and the schools of their kid sister/brothers...

A few random thoughts:

The violence only takes place at night, in the daytime, it's business as usual. Also not a coincidence, the whole event started during a school break, where kids had nothing better to do.

There is no looting. None at all. (transpose the same scenes to the US and imagine...)

There has been only a couple of shooting incidents (hunting rifles, and yes, thank god for the gun control laws in France!)

The cause of the lone casualty mentionned above is now in doubt. It may have been an act of vengeance that had nothing to do with the violence. (still under investigation)

[fantastic flying froggies]

Now, as to the cause of all this trouble, and this is where it gets very complex.

France, right now and probably in the last 20 years or so, has weakened considerably, especially from an economics point of view. There is no money left in the treasury, there is a high unemployment rate, no growth...which means that the country as a whole, is suffering.

Of course, for the people that are poor to begin with, this is even harder. And it is true that in those suburbs, there are rates of 40% unemployment, with very low level of education.

Another reason is that some people simply do not want the police to come in those ghettos, because they are little drug lords who do not want any interference from the authorities.

Immigration is of course another cause. The political correctness of the last 20 years has made this an impossible issue to deal with, since as soon as someone raised the subject, he was called a racist. Which means that today, there is discrimination and people have a legitimate reason to be pissed off.

Having said that, the rioters are clearly not all of foreign origin. They are the inhabitants of those ghettos, mostly immigrants yes, but not only. For example, the first night, there was 6 youth arrested. Of these 6, 2 were of North African origin, 1 from 'Black' Africa, 1 from the indian ocean and 2 whites.

Now the religious aspect. This has been very overrated, there are probably a few radical islamists pushing the young ones, but for the most part, muslims have called for a stop to the violence.

I hope these posts were not too long.

[monte_mcguire]

Tongue in cheek.
As soon as a leader emerges from the Moslem community in Paris, the French will surrender to them.

[monte_mcguire]

Also, I really get the impression this is blown way out of proportion by foreign media. This is not a full blown riot, we're talking about a few hundreds kids (nationwide) roving in bands, breaking and burning stuff.

How many days after 12 before it becomes a "full blown riot"?

[fantastic flying froggies]

How many days after 12 before it becomes a "full blown riot"?

To me, the question is not a matter of days, but number of people.

Extreme example, if I go out in the street by myself and burn a car every single night for a full year, is it a full blown riot? No, didn't think so...

[monte_mcguire]

Nationwide, vandals burned 1,173 cars overnight Monday to Tuesday, compared with 1,408 vehicles the night before, police said. A total of 330 people were arrested, down from 395 the previous night.

France is under a "State of Emergency"

France deployes 9500 cops.
Buildings burned out.
Rioting was reported in 226 towns across France, compared with nearly 300 the night before.

This sounds like a "full blown riot" to me.

[MrBigglesworth]

I think whether or not it is 'full-blown' is largely a semantic issue, but to put it into perspective, at the Watts riots in 1965 34 people were killed and 4,000 people arrested. In the LA riot of 1992, 50 people were killed and 10,000 arrested.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nationwide, vandals burned 1,173 cars overnight Monday to Tuesday, compared with 1,408 vehicles the night before

Okay, if 1000+ cars a night isn't a "riot", then I'd sure hate to see what they do if they really get rowdy.

[cartman]

Okay, if 1000+ cars a night isn't a "riot", then I'd sure hate to see what they do if they really get rowdy.

They were Renaults and Peugeots, so the damage was in the tens of dollars...

:D

[TroyF]

Okay, if 1000+ cars a night isn't a "riot", then I'd sure hate to see what they do if they really get rowdy.


Really rowdy? It's soccertime. . .

[Wolfpack]

They were Renaults and Peugeots, so the damage was in the tens of dollars...

:D

Outstanding! :D

[MrBigglesworth]

Best analysis of the French riots that I have seen:

hxxp://www.juancole.com/2005/11/problem-with-frenchness-readers-have.html

[Dutch]

Best analysis of the French riots that I have seen:

hxxp://www.juancole.com/2005/11/problem-with-frenchness-readers-have.html

Interesting collection of anti-American bumper stickers for sale on the ad pane fwiw.

I do like one of the commentors that follow the article.

Juan,

thank you for your friendly comments about France, and for your analysis of the riots happening here at the moment.
...

Unemployment has been the biggest problem in France for twenty years; everybody feels threatened, with the youths and the elderly being hurt the most, and people with african ascent (arabs,berbers or blacks) are in an even worse situation because of racist discrimination. Educated people are hurt, but uneducated people are hurt more because minimum wage policies have killed many low value jobs. So, uneducated youth of african ascent are really suffering from unemployment.

However, I don't think religion is totally irrelevant; we have witnessed in recent years a growing importance of religious signs in these communities, with more and more bearded men and veiled women. Young veiled girls in particular is a striking phenomenon,and I quite often come across an unveiled mother together with veiled daughters, which clearly shows that muslim women used to try hard to integrate into the french society but a significant number of younger girls recently gave up with that behaviour and now proudly wear veils in order to assert their identity.

My favorite part of the post resides is his take on how French and American immigration is different.

America was built on immigration whilst French immigrants are largely due to being "invaded a number of times (by the romans, the goth, visigoth, burgondes, vandales, francs, vikings, huns, arabs, english, spanish, swedes, russians, germans, and I probably forget many), each of these invasions brought some immigration, and the french people tend to somewhat confuse immigration and invasion and to not like any of them.

Is that list long enough? Good stuff. :)

[Klinglerware]

Now, as to the cause of all this trouble, and this is where it gets very complex.

France, right now and probably in the last 20 years or so, has weakened considerably, especially from an economics point of view. There is no money left in the treasury, there is a high unemployment rate, no growth...which means that the country as a whole, is suffering.

Of course, for the people that are poor to begin with, this is even harder. And it is true that in those suburbs, there are rates of 40% unemployment, with very low level of education.

Another reason is that some people simply do not want the police to come in those ghettos, because they are little drug lords who do not want any interference from the authorities.

Immigration is of course another cause. The political correctness of the last 20 years has made this an impossible issue to deal with, since as soon as someone raised the subject, he was called a racist. Which means that today, there is discrimination and people have a legitimate reason to be pissed off.

Having said that, the rioters are clearly not all of foreign origin. They are the inhabitants of those ghettos, mostly immigrants yes, but not only. For example, the first night, there was 6 youth arrested. Of these 6, 2 were of North African origin, 1 from 'Black' Africa, 1 from the indian ocean and 2 whites.

Now the religious aspect. This has been very overrated, there are probably a few radical islamists pushing the young ones, but for the most part, muslims have called for a stop to the violence.

I hope these posts were not too long.


Thanks for the post, FFF. It's good to get some perspective from someone closer to the situation than most of us.

It is interesting to note than not all of the rioters are of North African descent. This could suggest that these riots are more the result of "economic forces creating idle youth" rather than a "radical islamic call to arms".

They were interviewing minority students attending the Sorbonne on the greater difficulties they face in finding work post graduation compared to their white peers. It seems that they've also done the resume experiments where they've sent out resumes that are identical except for the name on the top of it. Of course, those with traditional French names were more likely to be selected for interviews. Since there is no affirmative action in France, presumably there should be no preferential university admissions, so you can't make the argument that minorities at the Sorbonne are less qualified. These minority students are among France's best and brightest, and if even they can't get jobs by remaining faithful to the system, what message does that send to minorities about how egalitarian and colorblind their system really is?

I'm not condoning the violence, but if we are talking about the causes, I thought I would add my .02