Werewolf XVIII: To Crown a King (GAME OVER) [Archive]

View Full Version : Werewolf XVIII: To Crown a King (GAME OVER)

Pages : [1] 2 3

Barkeep49

11-30-2005, 09:48 AM

This will be a fairly basic game of Werewolf, with a couple of twists. The full rules will be posted in the next post. Sign-ups will occur from now until sometime on Saturday. I will then close sign-up and send out roles either Saturday night or Sunday morning. The game will start on Monday December 5.

While the full rules are posted below a summary of the three biggest changes are:
1. With-in the "human" side there will be at least 2 teams, both attempting to have its leader crowned King. This is a victory condition for the "humans".
2. Human sides recieve points based on how well its members vote. Vote for a lot of assassins and get a lot of points.
3. Players may be either jailed or executed. Jailed players may later be freed and can still talk and participate in the game, though they may not vote.

There are of course other changes so you are encouraged to read the rules. I attempt to make the rules thorough to avoid having to answer questions during the game which might affect the outcome of the game.

Signed-up Players
1. George W Bush
2. ardent enthusiast
3. dubb93
4. st.cronin
5. McSweeny
6. Mr. Wednesday
7. Vince
8. Desnudo
9. Coffee Warlord
10. RPI-Fan
11. TazFTW
12. Blade6119
13. kingfc22
14. <STRIKE>pennywisesb</strike> Raiders Army
15. hoopsguy
16. Schmidity
17. Passacalagia
18. saldana

Alternate
1. SnDvls

Barkeep49

11-30-2005, 09:48 AM

Game Basics:

In this game there are two main sides, the Nobles and the Assassins. Within the Nobles there will be two or more (depending on the number of players) Factions. Each faction is attempting to have its own leader crowned King. This game rewards players for correct decision making giving them points based on how they vote.

Game Etiquette
Please do not post any PMs you might receive from me. Feel free to paraphrase but outright posting is not allowed. What happens in the game should be based on what has happened in the game. Please do not wager or let outside grudges affect the game. If you are concerned that a strategy might not be allowed by the rules please contact me before attempting the strategy. Please do not edit/delete posts. The exception for this is to correct spelling or add another quick point with-in a couple minutes of the original posting. Finally, dead players, are well dead, and should avoid influencing the outcome of the game.

The last game of werewolf went spectacularly well and I’m sure this game will be just as much fun.

Victory Conditions:

Each side has its own set of victory conditions and can achieve various levels of success.

For the Assassins a normal victory is achieved when a 1-1 ratio of free Assassins and Nobles happens. A major victory is if an assassin is crowned king.

For the Nobles a minor victory is achieved if a non-assassin Noble is crowned king. A normal victory is achieved if a non-assassin Noble from his faction is crowned king OR if all Assassins have been executed. A major victory is achieved if there are no free assassins and a noble from his faction is crowned king.

Cycles

Each day cycle will last approximately 24 hours. Each night cycle will last approximately 12 hours. This is designed to try and let as many people with busy schedules, or who live overseas, participate. Weekends will be left to the discretion of the GM with player input. The game will start with a night 0 cycle.

Voting:

There are three types of votes: Execute, Jail, and Free.

A vote to execute is a vote to kill the person. This is a normal lynch and will result in the person’s role being revealed.

A vote to jail is a vote to send the person to jail. Jail will be explained more below. There is no role reveal

A vote to free is a vote to release a person in jail from jail.

Votes to execute and jail are counted together for determining the most votes. Whichever action (execute or jail) has more votes will be the action performed. Noble Leaders votes count double for purposes of deciding execution or jailing.

Example 1:

There are 7 Players (A, B, C, D, E, F, and G)

Player A votes Vote Player B Execute
Player B votes Vote Player A Execute
Player C votes Vote Player B Jail
Player D votes Vote Player B Jail
Player E votes Vote Player A Execute
Player F votes Vote Player A Execute
Player G votes Vote Player B Execute

In this case Player B has received 4 votes and Player A has received 3 votes. Player B will be either jailed or executed based on the tie breaker.

Example 2:

There are 4 Players (Players A, B, C, and D)

Player A is in jail and cannot vote
Player B votes Free Player A
Player B votes Free Player A
Player D votes Execute Player A

In this case Player A is freed from jail.

Ties will be decided based on the first vote cast (votes which are unvoted and reinstated are counted at the time of the reinstatement).

All votes should be bolded say Vote, state the player’s name, and then the action to perform and should be the last thing in a post.

Example:
VOTE Barkeep49 Jail.

All unvotes must be accompanied by a new vote on a separate line. Failure to cast a new vote at the same time as the unvote will result in the original vote remaining in place.
Example:
UNVOTE Barkeep49 Jail

Vote Barkeep49 Execute

A player must unvote and then vote in order to change their vote from a Jail to Execute (or vice versa).

Points:

Points are award to Orders based on how well its members vote. Note that if a person is executed, points are awarded to players regardless of whether they voted to execute or jail.

If a person who is executed is an assassin:
+3 points for the first vote cast
+5 points for the lynching votes (in other words if the final votes is 8-3, the 4th vote cast is considered the lynching vote)
+1 point for all other votes

If a person who is executed is a Noble:
-2 points for the first vote cast (-2.5 if the person was a member of your faction)
-3.5 points for the lynching vote (-4 if the person was a member of your faction)
-.5 points to each player of that faction who voted to execute

Other:
+.5 points for any person voting to Jail the opposing Noble leader, whether or not they recieve the most votes
+.5 points for any person voting to execute an assassin who does not receive the most votes
+.5 points for any person voting to free a member of his faction from jail, whether or not they recieve the most votes
+1.5 point for the first person to vote to send an assassin to jail, if the assassin is sent to jail
+1.5 point for the “lynching” vote to send an assassin to jail, if the assassin is sent to jail
-.5 points for the first person to vote to send a noble to jail, if the noble is sent to jail
-.5 points for the “lynching” vote to send a noble to jail, if the noble is sent to jail

Points will not be revealed until after the first execution. Points will then be updated only after each execution.

Jail:

While in jail a person may still speak, but cannot vote or use any special roles, includ asssin abilities, they might have (except for the Rich Noble). They may not be killed by the assassins.

Crowning the King
After the first execution e a point total will be revealed. Once a faction achieves that point total they automatically crown their Noble Leader king, if he is not in jail.

Noble Roles:

There will be 1 Noble Leader and at least 1 Fast Talking Noble for each faction in the game. There will also be 1 Wise Noble. All other roles may or may not be in the game and there may be more than 1 of each role.

Noble Leader
This is the person who the faction is trying to get crowned King. This person is known to all members of his faction, however he does not know who any of the members of his faction are. During the night cycle he may send a 10 word message to all members of his faction. His vote carries twice the weight for determining if a person is jailed or executed. Finally, he may designate either even or odd days and on those days he will have a retinue watching over him during night, preventing the assassins from killing him. If the Noble Leader is killed or executed, a new member of the faction (based on a secret order determined before the start of the game by the GM) becomes Noble Leader after 1 cycle (either day or night).

Warrior Noble
Well trained in the martial arts, this Noble may designate one player to be protected during the night cycle, by his entourage. If the assassins attempt to kill that player the attack will fail. The same player may not be protected 2 nights in a row. The Warrior Noble may choose to protect himself.

Sleepless Noble
This poor Noble has trouble sleeping. Once during the game, the insomniac may choose to wander the castle at night. If there is a kill that night, he will learn the identity of one of the assassins. Likewise, that assassin will learn his identity.

Sneaky Noble:
During the night the Sneaky Noble may examine the correspondences of 1 noble to determine whether or not they are an assassin (or in the case of a blackmailed Noble Leader, on the assassins’ side).

Fast Talking Noble
If targeted by the assassins to be killed, this smooth talker will convince the assassins that he is on their side and becomes an assassin. This Noble will still recieve all messages from the Noble leader but will not count towards his former faction for point and voting purposes. If the known Noble Leader dies after the Fast Talking Noble has become an assassin, he will not learn the identity of the new Noble Leader. Nobles won’t know if they’re a fast enough talker until targeted by the assassins and it is possible that the Assassins will only put up with so many "fast talkers" before they will start to ignore such people. This Noble may have an additional role, but will lose those role's powers if they become an assassin.

Lucky Noble
This Noble has remarkably good luck when it counts. One time during the game, if targeted by the assassins, this Noble will not be assassinated. He will know that he was the target of a killing, but will not learn the identities of any of the assassins. Nobles won’t know how lucky they are until they survive an assassination attempt. This Noble may have an additional role.

Rich Noble
With a lot of money to burn, once per game this Noble may bribe the guards to release all people currently in the jail, during the night cycle. This may be used even if the Rich Noble is in jail.

Cocky Noble
This Noble isn’t afraid to take matters into his own hands. Once per game he may kill another player during the night phase. If prevented by bodyguards he may try again.

Wise Noble
This Noble is able to pick up on little clues to make correct deductions. He may send in two roles per night and learn if that role is currently present in the game, and how many there are, if present. Upon his death, a list with all the roles he’s found for each day will be found.

Assassins Powers and Roles

The Assassins may freely communicate with each other. Each night the assassins may choose to kill someone or to free all those in jail. If choosing to kill, one of the assassins should be designated as the killer. Unless there is only one assassin, the same assassin may not kill two times (note that this does not say nights) in a row.

As a Night 0 action, the Assassins may choose one player to Blackmail. If this player is, or becomes, a Noble Leader, he will be notified that is now on the Assassins team, and future votes will not count towards his Faction’s points. However, he does not learn the identities of the other assassins and may not perform any assassin actions. The Assassins will know if a Blackmail attempt has been successful.

All roles below may, or may not, be in the game and there may be more than 1 of a role. The Fast Talking Noble may become one of the following roles if he becomes an assassin.

Sly Assassin
This assassin is not what he appears to be. If viewed by the Sneaky Noble, this Assassin will show up as a normal Noble. If he is killed, however, his true identity as Sly Assassin will be revealed.

Vengeful Assassin
If sent to be executed, this assassin will shoot a poison dart into one of the Nobles, causing him to die during the next night cycle. A search of this assassin’s corpse will only reveal him to be a regular Assassin, without special powers.

Clever Assassin
Once per game this Assassin, instead of killing a target, may instead plant evidence on the victim, so if that victim is later killed he will appear to have been an assassin.

Efficient Assassin
Able to kill quickly and easily, once per game this assassin may select two targets for the night kill.

Tricky Assassin
Once per game the tricky assassin may choose to have his victim die during the following night cycle, instead of the current night cycle. A search of this assassin’s corpse will only reveal him to be a regular Assassin, without special powers. If the Sleepless Noble power is used, the Sleepless Noble will learn the Trick Assassin's identity and vice versa.

Order Roles are Performed

During the Night Cycle, orders are performed in the following order:
1. Warrior Noble and Noble Leader’s protect
2. Sleepless Noble
3. Assassin’s action
4. Cocky Noble
5. Sneaky Noble
6. Rich Noble
7. Wise Noble

Joe

11-30-2005, 09:54 AM

I'm in, since I can now access the site from work, due to the change to the new server (WOOHOO)

saldana

11-30-2005, 11:03 AM

barkeep, looks awesome, my only question at this point it what times are you looking at for deadlines (i wont play if i cant be available for the deadlines)

Poli

11-30-2005, 11:04 AM

I'm in, with no betting this time. :)

SnDvls

11-30-2005, 11:11 AM

looks like fun, I'd love to play, but we're moving into a new house this weekend then it's the daughter's 1st birthday so I'll have to pass this time. I'll be following along though. Put me down as an alternate if someone has to bail out during the game, maybe my time will free up a little then.

Barkeep49

11-30-2005, 11:13 AM

barkeep, looks awesome, my only question at this point it what times are you looking at for deadlines (i wont play if i cant be available for the deadlines)
I'm looking at 9 AM and 9 PM or 10 AM and 10 PM Eastern being the deadlines. This works fairly well in my schedule while working well for most parts of the country. The long day cycle is intended to give the maximum number of people a chance to play. However, if people tell me this doesn't work in practice I am amenable to going to a more traditional cycle like the one Neon had in WW16.

Poli

11-30-2005, 11:17 AM

Make me the seer. That role rules. I really enjoyed it.

Poli

11-30-2005, 11:18 AM

LOL. I'm done with that. :)

dubb93

11-30-2005, 11:19 AM

I'm in....

I'll bet you 5 bucks I can get you betting by the end of the game Ardent ;)

Poli

11-30-2005, 11:19 AM

Time stamp error above. :)

st.cronin

11-30-2005, 11:35 AM

I'll play again.

McSweeny

11-30-2005, 12:14 PM

this looks pretty interesting, i'm in again if

Mr. Wednesday

11-30-2005, 01:13 PM

I'll play.

Barkeep, did you intentionally omit the spymaster role? It's referenced in the assassin section but not listed in the nobles section.

Vince

11-30-2005, 02:02 PM

Mr. Wednesday beat me to the punch.

I'll sign up -- lord knows I followed that other game too much without even being involved.

Desnudo

11-30-2005, 02:11 PM

I'm in please.

Coffee Warlord

11-30-2005, 02:13 PM

I do believe his Coffee-ness shall return to the fray for this one.

RPI-Fan

11-30-2005, 02:31 PM

I'm; in.

Raiders Army

11-30-2005, 02:32 PM

This one sounds like it will be interesting to watch.

Vince

11-30-2005, 02:36 PM

Damn it, I had my day one vote lined up until you said that RA :)

Raiders Army

11-30-2005, 02:38 PM

Damn it, I had my day one vote lined up until you said that RA :)
LOL. Sorry, but it always seems as if I'm a wolf. I'm watching from the sidelines this time!

McSweeny

11-30-2005, 02:44 PM

i just re-read the rules again, looks like this will be quite confusing

excellent

:)

TazFTW

11-30-2005, 03:02 PM

I'm in.

Barkeep49

11-30-2005, 06:03 PM

I'll play.

Barkeep, did you intentionally omit the spymaster role? It's referenced in the assassin section but not listed in the nobles section.

The spymaster became the Sneaky Noble. It has been fixed in the rules. Thanks for pointing this out.

i just re-read the rules again, looks like this will be quite confusing

excellent

Unlike Spawn I think the game itself should be easy to understand for anyone familiar with Werewolf. I just hope the game itself will be interesting for all sides :).

Coffee Warlord

11-30-2005, 06:15 PM

Vote Ardent Execute

Oh wait. Sorry.

saldana

11-30-2005, 06:41 PM

I'm in. i will have to beg a little to get IT to change my window as soon as the night deadline becomes official

i'm sure Dubb is suspicious of me already

kingfc22

11-30-2005, 06:42 PM

Doh. Too late already??? I already see an alternate list...

saldana

11-30-2005, 06:52 PM

Doh. Too late already??? I already see an alternate list...
sndvls asked to be on the alternate list, the signups are still open as far as i know

Poli

11-30-2005, 07:22 PM

Vote Ardent Execute

Oh wait. Sorry.
VOTE WARLORD DIE

:)

dubb93

11-30-2005, 07:44 PM

I think we need to take a serious look at Saldana. Something tells me he is an assassian;)

Blade6119

11-30-2005, 07:47 PM

Im in if there is still spots available

Barkeep49

11-30-2005, 07:56 PM

Im in if there is still spots available
Yes there are plenty of spots still available.

kingfc22

11-30-2005, 08:03 PM

Barkeep - add me to the list

Blade6119

11-30-2005, 08:08 PM

Yes there are plenty of spots still available.

Got it, then im in...saw sundvls listed as alternate and got worried i was too late

pennywisesb

11-30-2005, 09:15 PM

Nice, I'll play.

saldana

12-01-2005, 12:30 AM

I think we need to take a serious look at Saldana. Something tells me he is an assassian;)
just kill me now and get it over with :rolleyes:

pennywisesb

12-01-2005, 10:38 AM

I think we need to take a serious look at Saldana. Something tells me he is an assassian;)

LOL. Thats exactly what I was thinking Dubb, he seems pretty suspicious.....

hoopsguy

12-01-2005, 11:40 AM

Is there any doubt that the president will be the first one assassinated, just because you don't get opportunities like that all that often?

I'll be in if this doesn't start until next week. This week is a mess. If you are looking for an earlier start then please pencil me in as an alternate.

Barkeep49

12-02-2005, 02:03 PM

One final bump. After looking over my schedule we'll probabally do 9 AM and 10 PM Eastern as the deadlines.

Passacaglia

12-02-2005, 05:01 PM

I wasn't sure I'd have time to play, but what the heck...count me in.

Schmidty

12-02-2005, 05:09 PM

I'm in if there's room.

Passacaglia

12-02-2005, 05:11 PM

Actually, Schmidty, you can have the last spot. Put me in as alternate 2.

Blade6119

12-02-2005, 06:58 PM

Actually, Schmidty, you can have the last spot. Put me in as alternate 2.

We can have both of you if im not mistaken...he just shows next spot on top post, but hes one that sine 4-5 guys...note my post a couple up

Barkeep49

12-02-2005, 10:50 PM

We can have both of you if im not mistaken...he just shows next spot on top post, but hes one that sine 4-5 guys...note my post a couple up
Yes that is correct. I can basically accomodate with balance any number of players in this game larger than 10 since I can simply duplicate or omit roles in order to provide balance. So I'm putting you both in. If you'd like to be an alternate instead that's fine as well, but the more the merrier.

Barkeep49

12-03-2005, 08:16 AM

One final bump. For balance purposes 1 more player would be ideal.

Barkeep49

12-03-2005, 04:47 PM

Werewolf roles have been sent to everyone but Blade. Blade your inbox is full. Please empty some room so I may send you your role.

Barkeep49

12-03-2005, 04:48 PM

Scenario:
You are a noble in the land of Pastel Order. Your king has recently died after a long and prosperous rule. According to the law of your land, all of the nobles assemble to elect a new king, based on merit.. For many of you it will be the first time you’ve had a chance to crown a king. From all over the land the various Nobles arrive. Some are well known, others more obscure. What can be certain is the eclectic mix of individuals.

On the first formal night of the assembly there is a magnificent banquet. As the banquet comes to an end, the previous king’s Prime Minister stands up.

“Assembled nobles welcome. I know it is with a heavy heart that all of you have come here today. I must, however, make your heart heavier. Our spies have learned that the evil land of Antler Fanatics has infiltrated the highest level of our kingdom. Their lust for our land is well known and it seems as though some of you in this very room have been trained as assassins. Nobles you must not let this nefarious plot work. I urge you to jail or kill one person in this room each day until we have crowned a king. The success of your decisions will be reported to the populace of the kingdom. Our citizens are wise and will only accept equally wise rulers. Good luck to all of you”

With that the banquet ends and the Nobles go off to plot what they will do in the days to come.

Please note the changes made to the Fast Talking Noble role. There are also a couple of other minor changes that I’ve made over the past few days to various parts of the rules.

These changes, particularly to the Fast Noble role, were made to ensure game balance. This set of rules has never been used before and I believe there to be a couple of obvious strategies for each side to use in the first couple of days. I balanced the game accordingly. If, however, these weren’t as obvious as I had thought I wanted to make sure the game did not quickly become unfair/unfun.

Night Zero Actions are due by Monday at 9 AM Eastern, but will be processed earlier if received earlier. The first lynch deadline will be 10 PM Eastern Monday. After that we’ll be trying the roughly 12/24 cycles described in the rules.

Blade6119

12-03-2005, 04:59 PM

So night actions we go, but im sure we can start game too...So what does everyone think would be a great strategy? Or just random votes and hope we come out ok?

st.cronin

12-03-2005, 04:59 PM

I don't understand why this game is called "werewolf."

dubb93

12-03-2005, 05:03 PM

I don't understand why this game is called "werewolf."

This game is nothing, you need to go back and read some of the previous "werewolf" games. And I'd recommend it to anyone new to the game anyway. It may take a while, but it will greatly help you ability to pick things up during the game.

Coffee Warlord

12-03-2005, 05:32 PM

Checkin' in after having made an incredible new dinner dish. Yum!

Schmidty

12-03-2005, 06:19 PM

I'm here. On and off the computer this evening, but just wanted to check in.

Barkeep49

12-03-2005, 06:53 PM

Ok seems like I made a slight mistake in missing Saldana as a sign-up. This actually works out very well. I'm going to reroll the roles as I feel far more confident about balancing an 18 person game than a 17. I apologize for those of you who got roles that you'd like, but there will actually be more roles in an 18 person game than a 17. This should be done with-in the next half-hour or so.

Schmidty

12-03-2005, 07:23 PM

Schmidty

12-03-2005, 07:24 PM

j/k ;)

kingfc22

12-03-2005, 07:25 PM

Checking in. I hope this WW game is as good as our last.

Passacaglia

12-03-2005, 08:07 PM

Cool, I'm in!

Barkeep49

12-03-2005, 08:11 PM

Ok revised PMs have been sent. Faction Leaders make sure to send in your messages and which night (even or odds) you would like to be protected. Sneaky Noble tell me which noble you are spying on. Wise Noble tell me which roles you would like to find out about. Assassins tell me which player you are going to blackmail.

Once again the game is on.

Joe

12-03-2005, 08:23 PM

let's get it started

hoopsguy

12-03-2005, 09:23 PM

Checking in, looking forward to a fun game here.

st.cronin

12-03-2005, 09:29 PM

This game seems like it will be a lot different from the last.

Poli

12-03-2005, 09:34 PM

FUuuuuuuuuuuuun game by the looks of it.

Barkeep49

12-03-2005, 10:14 PM

I don't understand why this game is called "werewolf."
To me werewolf is a term which refers to a broad category of games. Neon has run a few games which use mafia as the bad guys rather than Werewolves. By putting Werewolf in the thread title I think you're letting people know it's a game, there's going to be deduction, lies, voting, etc. But you do bring up an interesting point :).

saldana

12-03-2005, 10:35 PM

now that i am in the game, checking in, i am looking forward to this game, barkeeps spawn game was awesome.

Blade6119

12-03-2005, 10:59 PM

Wow, i have been on a 5 game villager streak....so what do i get here, first a villager(noble)....then another villager!!!! KICK ASS!!!! :(

Mr. Wednesday

12-03-2005, 11:06 PM

Villager role received. :D

Vince

12-04-2005, 02:11 AM

Checkin' in. I'm off tomorrow, so I'm likely to be away from the computer for most of the day doing useless things I don't like. Exciting.

TazFTW

12-04-2005, 03:11 AM

Checkin' in.

McSweeny

12-04-2005, 04:07 PM

ok i'm around now, i should be around pretty often all week

st.cronin

12-04-2005, 04:19 PM

I will bet my second license of tcy that I am not the cunning wolf in this game.

Barkeep49

12-04-2005, 04:32 PM

UPDATE: Several players still haven't logged on to the board since the roles have been sent out. Hopefully they will log on soon, and the several people who still owe me night PMs (including some one(s) who've checked in here) will send it on their way as soon as possible.

Vince

12-04-2005, 06:33 PM

dubb93

12-04-2005, 06:44 PM

So...seems that a likely place to start discussions on this game is the strategic value of the Jail. I think that for the villagers, the jail is only useful later in the game, when the 'wolves' have been thinned out a bit -- the early game is mostly a time to fish for information, and little is learned about anything if no one is killed. The assassins definitely gain by having no kill on any of the first few nights...we gain no information, they have no risk of being killed, and they get to kill in the night.

I think at first, at least, most (if not all) of our votes should be for execution.

Why? I think the best thing would be to let the jail fill up a bit and wait for the sneaky nobles to hit an assassin.--It may even give us hints to the other assassins

1st off, we lose WAY more points for voting to lynch a noble than voting to jail one. And we all know the early votes are always crap shoots.

Vince

12-04-2005, 06:47 PM

How often does a sneaky noble (read: seer) hit an assassin? Look at Ardent last game -- he hit one right away, but what was he able to do about it? He outed him three game days later, and managed to get two villagers killed in the process. That's a very iffy situation, and while we're sitting on our thumbs waiting for the (possibly non-existant) chance that our Sneaky Noble might 'hit an assassin,' the assassins get to kill people and we don't learn much, if anything, about voting patterns, etc.

I meant to start discussion on this, because I'd be willing to change my tack on voting to execute from the beginning. I'm still trying to get my mind around the whole points/crowning a king thing, so I haven't thought about that yet. The penalty for voting to execute a noble (especially one of your own clan) is a pretty significant damper to random voting.

st.cronin

12-04-2005, 06:49 PM

I agree with dubb. Jail is our friend.

Vince

12-04-2005, 06:55 PM

...and managed to get two villagers killed in the process.
This doesn't include the villagers that were killed at night and via lynch between the time he found out Hoops was a villager and the time he outed him -- just includes he and Mr. Wednesday.

I don't want to criticize Ardent's play, because I think he did a pretty good job -- but it is very indicative of how unreliable it is to wait for a specific thing to happen. Even if the sneaky noble does 'hit' an assassin on the first few nights, who would believe him? And how would he get the point accross early without revealing his role (a pretty terrible turn of events, I'd say)? We might be waiting for a long time before we get around to 'Well, we better start lynching people, because this is getting us nowhere,' or something similar.

Barkeep49

12-04-2005, 06:56 PM

Rule clarification. The rules about jail state that no one may use any special roles. This includes the Assassins ability to talk to one another or perform a kill. The ONLY thing a person may do in Jail is post in the thread (except the Rich Noble who may bribe the guards).

hoopsguy

12-04-2005, 07:04 PM

OK, trying to think how the game is likely to be balanced. Here is a stream of thoughts on the topic ...

1.) Barkeep wanted the 18th player for balance.
2.) I'm guessing that the noble factions will have an equal number of players.
3.) I'm guessing that the total number of nobles vs assassins is somewhere from 3/1 to 6/1.

Three factions with five members each, plus three assassins. The assassins have the power to blackmail one the first night to trim the odds a little going forward. That sounds about right to me. Except for the fact that there would be a Fast Talking Noble on each faction, which would start to set the numbers up against the nobles pretty quickly if they get lucky.

Two factions with eight members each, plus two assassins is also a possibility. That might make more sense with the role of Fast Talking, plus the Blackmail.

it is possible that the Assassins will only put up with so many "fast talkers" before they will start to ignore such people.

The above quote is in regards to the fast talker. I'm guessing this means that if we have three factions that only two total fast talkers can be converted to provide some kind of balance.

Barkeep, I'm reading the blackmail as if the noble does not become an assassin, but his voting is negated. Is this accurate? It is a pretty big deal in terms of assassin victory conditions to understand this ...

Barkeep49

12-04-2005, 07:13 PM

Barkeep, I'm reading the blackmail as if the noble does not become an assassin, but his voting is negated. Is this accurate? It is a pretty big deal in terms of assassin victory conditions to understand this ...

The blackmailing only works if a person is, or becomes, a Faction Leader. They are counted as an Assassin for number purposes (and point purposes if you were to execute/jail them), however they do not know who the Assassins are and cannot kill or communicate with the Assassins. I hope all that makes sense.

hoopsguy

12-04-2005, 07:14 PM

I'm not sure that jail is a device that helps the nobles. The assassins have the ability to run a jailbreak on any given night. The nobles do not have any way to protect the jail. The assassins can continue to kill while their membership is in jail, then run a jailbreak which we can't stop when they get to a night action phase where they are uncomfortable with their numbers. I would rather have a minor victory thanks to the other faction being crowned than no victory thanks to an assassin triumph.

dubb93

12-04-2005, 07:16 PM

How often does a sneaky noble (read: seer)

On average about 1 a game(and usually early). I'm NOT going to go out and issue lynch votes right off the bat as it would destroy any chance my personal faction has of winning if I'm voting for one of our own by mistake.

hoopsguy

12-04-2005, 07:19 PM

Barkeep, thanks for the clarification. So the blackmail does potentially add to the assassin numbers in terms of a victory, if they are fortunate enough to hit a leader or see that person promoted to leader.

Next question - does the Noble Leader retain his status if jailed? Or does another member of his faction move up the ladder until the leader is freed? The rules seem to suggest that he only loses his title upon death, but I want to make sure everyone (well, me and anyone else who is interested) understands this correctly.

dubb93

12-04-2005, 07:19 PM

The assassins can continue to kill while their membership is in jail, then run a jailbreak which we can't stop when they get to a night action phase where they are uncomfortable with their numbers.

If they run a jail break it would be a good sign that there was a significant number of assassins in the jail. Then we could begin the kill votes of the people in jail.

Barkeep49

12-04-2005, 07:20 PM

Next question - does the Noble Leader retain his status if jailed? Or does another member of his faction move up the ladder until the leader is freed? The rules seem to suggest that he only loses his title upon death, but I want to make sure everyone (well, me and anyone else who is interested) understands this correctly.

Yes the Noble Leader remains such while in jail.

hoopsguy

12-04-2005, 07:23 PM

Dubb, I'm not sure I agree with that. They could be running well and stage a jailbreak whenever it gets to 2-3 people in jail just to make us leap to that kind of deduction. A jailbreak does not have to indicate that they are in trouble.

Without any ability to secure the jail even half the time I'm pretty concerned with stocking the jail (on a temporary basis) while the assassins are issuing toe tags to nobles.

Joe

12-04-2005, 07:33 PM

hoopsguy

12-04-2005, 07:37 PM

Each night the assassins may choose to kill someone or to free all those in jail

The good news is that they don't kill on jailbreak night. The bad news is that they kill every other night. Unless I'm missing something in the rules, which would work for me ...

I would like to have a game where I feel like Jail is a useful mechanism. But right now I don't think this game is it :(

dubb93

12-04-2005, 07:37 PM

IDK right now, I'd still like everyone to take a close look at the risk/reward for lynching/jailing. I don't want the assassins to just pick us off, but I don't want to shoot my faction in the foot by lynching nobles and costing us points toward the crown.

And as far as the jailbreaks, anytime they run a jailbreak thats keeps nobles alive, but there will come a point when we have to start the lynch votes. Also, what are the odds of each faction having a seer type?

Desnudo

12-04-2005, 07:50 PM

Checking in.

Mr. Wednesday

12-04-2005, 08:06 PM

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 04:26 AM

When does night 0 end and day one begin?

Vince

12-05-2005, 04:56 AM

On average about 1 a game(and usually early). I'm NOT going to go out and issue lynch votes right off the bat as it would destroy any chance my personal faction has of winning if I'm voting for one of our own by mistake.
What makes you say usually early? By sheer probability, it's unlikely that the seer would ever get lucky early. It's happened a few times, but you're talking a 4/15 chance (absolutely TOPS...probably more like 2 or 3 in 15) chance of hitting a bad guy (change 15 to whatever the total number is in this game -- I'm a little drunk and a lot tired right now). I still think that jail votes before we get very far in the game are not helping the villager (noble) cause.

Either way, I'm glad this has sparked some debate -- I like hearing what other people have to say about this, because this is a fairly significant point in this game. Keep discussing! st. cronin -- I'd be happier if you gave a reason why you agreed with dubb that the Jail is a good thing for the villagers...even if you just want to mention that what dubb said is a good idea. What part of what dubb said is a good idea, and why do you agree with that part of his argument?

Vince

12-05-2005, 05:01 AM

I think something getting overlooked in the discussion is the point total reporting. Now, we're going to have to execute someone to take advantage of that, but I'm wondering if it won't be more sensible to stagger between voting for executions and voting for jailings?
I'm all for avoiding the lynching of an innocent noble. The only problem is that you need to ask yourself: "What do we gain by sending someone to jail?"

Differences between Jail and Lynch:

Jail:

No one dies -- therefore, no innocent villagers can die.

Less point penalty for hitting a villager with the votes.

Con: No role reveal.
[/list]

Lynch:

Someone dies -- might be an assassin.

Voting patterns begin to be established.

Con: Severe point penalty.

Con: Innocent Villager might die.

I think it's really not a benefit to us to jail someone (early, anyways), because it will do absolutely nothing to quell suspicion about someone who is successfully voted to be put in jail. So even if we 'win' a vote by putting someone in jail, it will do nothing to help us figure out who the assassins are...at least at first.

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 08:26 AM

What makes you say usually early? By sheer probability, it's unlikely that the seer would ever get lucky early. It's happened a few times, but you're talking a 4/15 chance (absolutely TOPS...probably more like 2 or 3 in 15) chance of hitting a bad guy (change 15 to whatever the total number is in this game -- I'm a little drunk and a lot tired right now). I still think that jail votes before we get very far in the game are not helping the villager (noble) cause.

Either way, I'm glad this has sparked some debate -- I like hearing what other people have to say about this, because this is a fairly significant point in this game. Keep discussing! st. cronin -- I'd be happier if you gave a reason why you agreed with dubb that the Jail is a good thing for the villagers...even if you just want to mention that what dubb said is a good idea. What part of what dubb said is a good idea, and why do you agree with that part of his argument?

Basically, I am all for keeping nobles alive as long as possible. I sort of see the point about how lynching puts more pressure on people, thus giving more info to go on. otoh, voting data wasn't very helpful in the last game we played, and we just kept lynching innocent people over and over.

Barkeep49

12-05-2005, 08:30 AM

You awake. There was a spirited discussion last night after the banquet about whether you should use the jail at all or simply kill those nobles suspected of being traitors. Either way the country is watching and waiting and a decision must be made today.

Day 1 has begun. Lynch deadline is 10 PM Eastern tonight. Lynching won't be processed until 1-2 hours after that when I return home.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 08:35 AM

VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY EXECUTE

Let the game begin

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 08:37 AM

talk about a confusing message

:confused:

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 08:39 AM

Basically, I am all for keeping nobles alive as long as possible. I sort of see the point about how lynching puts more pressure on people, thus giving more info to go on. otoh, voting data wasn't very helpful in the last game we played, and we just kept lynching innocent people over and over.

And voting data will go from Not Very Helpful to Utterly Useless if we throw folks in jail. That's just asking for us to be picked off night by night with not a clue who's killing us. I hate to come off as a 'lynch em all' voice here, but threatening people with a hanging' is still often the best (only?) way to really get the flow of logic going.

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 08:40 AM

VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY EXECUTE

Let the game begin

Uh. Any particular reason?

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 08:45 AM

Uh. Any particular reason?

Actually a dandy one, were i feel im sitting on higher then the 66% everyone else is that their a great kill...i dont care to go into details currently, but for me currently he has by far the best odds of being a good kill for me.

Mr. Wednesday

12-05-2005, 09:25 AM

Um, OK.

I have no idea what Blade could be going on about, since I'm a regular noble (no special powers or anything). I really have no desire to turn this into me vs. him, though.

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 09:34 AM

My message was confusing but I interpret it thusly:

VOTE ARDENT ENTHUSIAST EXECUTE

This does not mean I have changed my mind about jail vs. lynching: I am just going by what my faction leader has suggested.

Raiders Army

12-05-2005, 09:57 AM

VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY EXECUTE

Let the game begin
Wow. That was the quickest lynch vote ever.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 10:01 AM

Wow. That was the quickest lynch vote ever.

I do what i can...and overlooking the rules again i might be quite wrong with that vote. Ill be around for a few hours and might change it. But i have a circle of trust including me and two others right now, so its early but ive got a base to go forward with.

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 10:11 AM

So...in the span of a couple hours, we have two different people claiming two different people are pretty safe bets as wolves?

Eesh.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 10:11 AM

Note, i never said a thing about wolves, and neither did cronin

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 10:12 AM

I'm sowwy, but I don't see what the problem is. I mean, we want to get points, right? And if Blade is right with his first vote, he'll get more points. I figured the votes would start early.

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 10:18 AM

Note, i never said a thing about wolves, and neither did cronin

So I take it you (and/or both of you), assuming you've got a good bead on who's who, are going after opposing nobles and not assassins first.

I dare say that's going to get us all killed damn quick.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 10:20 AM

So I take it you (and/or both of you), assuming you've got a good bead on who's who, are going after opposing nobles and not assassins first.

I dare say that's going to get us all killed damn quick.

Not at all, i have a bead on 2 people right now as not in my faction. In a fairly open first day vote, the odds are better with one of them then a random vote. I stated my vote is open to change, and ill be watching closely where my 2 trusted souls go, but for now ill play the odds game that they could be an assasin

Killing an opposing noble loses points for my faction...i said that comment to make sure no one took my comment to say i knew he was a wolf

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 10:22 AM

So I take it you (and/or both of you), assuming you've got a good bead on who's who, are going after opposing nobles and not assassins first.

I dare say that's going to get us all killed damn quick.

I'm just going by what was in my message. I don't think I should really say more, but I'm definitely not just going after opposing nobles.

saldana

12-05-2005, 10:25 AM

damn blade that was quick, but stuff like that is why i love playing WW games, stir it up early.

just dropping my 2 cents in the jail/noose conversation, i think we need to start with a kill in order to get some info, and then use the jail later for people that we either are sure are good in order to protect them, or are very questionable as a means to determine one way or another...right now there are way to many people in the game for the latter to be use effectively.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 10:28 AM

And i will state this quite vocally so as to help in later days if controversy comes up. I have no idea what message cronin got, as i got one with no mention of ardent, and wasnt confusing at all. As far as i can tell, hes now the third person im quite sure isnt in my faction. Use this post for analyzing voting patterns relating to us later in game or tomorrow even

saldana

12-05-2005, 10:29 AM

saldana

12-05-2005, 10:31 AM

dola, never mind hoops, went back and read post 2.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 10:34 AM

hoops, i like your analysis of the game odds from last night in post 78, but i just wanted to ask you, are you guessing at there being 3 factions...i am just wondering if i missed something from barkeep about the number of teams...i assumed it was 2 noble factions and the WW's

I still think it is two...post two said two or more if we had too many players...id assume we have(with 18 players) two factions of 7 and 4 wolves...

saldana

12-05-2005, 10:53 AM

I still think it is two...post two said two or more if we had too many players...id assume we have(with 18 players) two factions of 7 and 4 wolves...
i think i am gonna wait until more votes are in before i personally make that decision, right now i am inclined to think there are 3 factions of 5 and 3 wolves

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 11:11 AM

I don't know what the number of factions are, just figured that this would be an interesting Day 0 topic of conversation.

I'm hoping there are not four wolves from the get-go, with them having the power to convert one from each faction. That would seem pretty unbalanced to me, although I'm sure Barkeep has spent more time pondering balance issues for his game than I have. My gut is that there are three factions, but I have no firsthand knowledge to help with these conclusions.

As far as the early voting patterns, I'm pretty sure that Cronin is not in my faction as I don't have an order like that to follow. It seems like a weird order for a faction leader to issue. On the one hand, it helps him determine who his people are - good to establish circles of trust in WW games. But based on the way that Cronin has revealed the message, it seems easy enough for the assassins to bandwagon on the vote against Ardent. Then they target the people who didn't vote for Ardent going forward, since they want that one faction to stay alive in order to help hide their numbers.

I'm not a faction leader. Even if I was I obviously would not hold sway over people in another faction. But this just doesn't strike me as a winning play without very solid information that AE is a bad guy.

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 11:17 AM

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 01:17 PM

Got real quiet all of a sudden.

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 01:24 PM

I'm not sure about the jail. I mean, I'm worried about jailbreaks, but I'm a softie, and I don't want to kick people out of a WW game so soon!

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 01:24 PM

A question that has me a little curious - I'm wondering how Blade has begun to start forming his group of trust at this early stage in the game. I'm not necessarily expecting him to reveal it, as the multiple factions aspect of this game makes it more challenging to decide what to share/withhold since you are not just playing against the wolves. I guess I'm just jealous that someone seems to have a fairly high level of certainty at a point in the game where that is not the norm.

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 01:25 PM

Dola - post #95 is Barkeep telling us that Night 0 is up. Post #96, five minutes later, is Blade firing the execute vote.

Schmidty

12-05-2005, 01:29 PM

I am so confused by the message I got. :(

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 01:29 PM

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 01:31 PM

But i have a circle of trust including me and two others right now, so its early but ive got a base to go forward with.

I've got a circle of trust including me and my leader. So I guess that leaves me one behind Blade in terms of trust right about now ...

In terms of votes, do we only have the two on the books right now? I haven't heard anything indicating strong evidence on either of the two parties - just an accussation that appears to be based on the fact that they would rather execute someone not in their faction.

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 01:35 PM

I know who my faction leader is, and that's it. My vote was purely based on my pm.

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 01:41 PM

Really at a loss at this point. Historically, the ones who come out firing early are not wolves. Further historically, the ones who get targeted early are...not wolves (vast majority of the time, at least).

dubb93

12-05-2005, 01:45 PM

McSweeny

12-05-2005, 01:48 PM

i haven't played much werewolf (2 or 3 games), but this is by far the most interesting day 1 i've been a part of. Two sure-fire votes for coming so quickly has thrown me for a bit of a loop. I'm really curious to see how this shakes out

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 01:48 PM

So that would make your faction leader Mr. Wednesday?

huh?

No, but I don't even understand how you got that. I'm the only one who has publicly suggested executing ardent.

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 01:53 PM

dola

My vote was based on the message I got from my faction leader ... not from anything posted in the forum. I don't believe he's even posted in the forum since I got the pm.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 01:54 PM

I've got a circle of trust including me and my leader. So I guess that leaves me one behind Blade in terms of trust right about now ...

In terms of votes, do we only have the two on the books right now? I haven't heard anything indicating strong evidence on either of the two parties - just an accussation that appears to be based on the fact that they would rather execute someone not in their faction.

One is the leader of my faction, another is not him, and i cant elaborate on that now, and i have a suspect for a third to trust if they keep saying the right things. As for the wednesday vote, hoops hit it right on...though i could have posted that vote before the night 0 end was posted..i knew i was voting for him before that, so sorry i even waited 5 minutes...i have something on him, though it maybe be entirely wrong so you prob. shouldnt follow me in this. I might ask barkeep for a rule clarification via PM, but until that point my vote stands for him.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 01:55 PM

huh?

No, but I don't even understand how you got that. I'm the only one who has publicly suggested executing ardent.
Ardent and Wednesday are friendly rivals in WW games...sry, fofc inside stuff you didnt know...it was a joke

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 02:00 PM

Ardent and Wednesday are friendly rivals in WW games...sry, fofc inside stuff you didnt know...it was a joke

ah so

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 02:02 PM

One is the leader of my faction, another is not him, and i cant elaborate on that now, and i have a suspect for a third to trust if they keep saying the right things. As for the wednesday vote, hoops hit it right on...though i could have posted that vote before the night 0 end was posted..i knew i was voting for him before that, so sorry i even waited 5 minutes...i have something on him, though it maybe be entirely wrong so you prob. shouldnt follow me in this. I might ask barkeep for a rule clarification via PM, but until that point my vote stands for him.

So...to clarify here...you had something on him before the game even started, and before you could have gotten any viewing-esque PM's?

Vince

12-05-2005, 02:05 PM

Clarification:

I was *not* ordered to vote for anybody. My message was not as confusing as I at first thought; there were merely some reading comprehension issues that I blame on lack of adequate caffeine.

That said, my vote still stands, as it does fit in with the message I got.
Interesting. After you mentioned that you might have been confused about your information, I went back and checked my own and found out that I too had misread my message. Anyhow...what could this (st. cronin and blade's early votes) mean? st. cronin seems to be quite straightforward in that he's following his faction leader's "orders," but Blade is being rather cryptic.

Possibly an assassin move? They don't care about gaining or losing points, because they know who they are voting for (whether or not they're an assassin) in advance. Either of them could be throwing this out there, and it could be an utter smoke screen (anyone who didn't receive a similar message to st. cronin would just assume it was the other faction, while Blade's just being cryptic -- not that I'm criticizing him).

I don't remember ever seeing Blade so decisive...though it's very preliminary, and I'm open to changing my vote, I'm not sure how available I'll be for the next few hours, so I'm going to put in a vote now just in case.

Vote Blade6119 Execute.

I start work tonight at 4 PM PST, so I'm gone after that for sure. Between now and then, I should be fairly available, but you never know.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 02:06 PM

So...to clarify here...you had something on him before the game even started, and before you could have gotten any viewing-esque PM's?

I knew i was going to vote for him after recieving my role...i wont go further then that, though i said im open to anyone else as im not sure hes an assasin

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 02:08 PM

Interesting. After you mentioned that you might have been confused about your information, I went back and checked my own and found out that I too had misread my message. Anyhow...what could this (st. cronin and blade's early votes) mean? st. cronin seems to be quite straightforward in that he's following his faction leader's "orders," but Blade is being rather cryptic.

Possibly an assassin move? They don't care about gaining or losing points, because they know who they are voting for (whether or not they're an assassin) in advance. Either of them could be throwing this out there, and it could be an utter smoke screen (anyone who didn't receive a similar message to st. cronin would just assume it was the other faction, while Blade's just being cryptic -- not that I'm criticizing him).

I don't remember ever seeing Blade so decisive...though it's very preliminary, and I'm open to changing my vote, I'm not sure how available I'll be for the next few hours, so I'm going to put in a vote now just in case.

Vote Blade6119 Execute.

I start work tonight at 4 PM PST, so I'm gone after that for sure. Between now and then, I should be fairly available, but you never know.

I think that's a good vote.

(edited to fix the quote tags, not for content)

Schmidty

12-05-2005, 02:08 PM

This seems to be a very confusing game of WW. :confused:

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 02:09 PM

I knew i was going to vote for him after recieving my role...i wont go further then that, though i said im open to anyone else as im not sure hes an assasin

Gonna have to go into it a little more if you want me to change my vote at this point. You're just not adding up to me.

Vote Blade Execute

dubb93

12-05-2005, 02:11 PM

You guys seem to have actually gotten good messages from your leader, all I got was my leader wanting to be crowned.

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 02:11 PM

VOTE BLADE6119 EXECUTE

I'm willing to change the vote, but I'd like to hear Blade elaborate, and this vote might push him to do it.

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 02:12 PM

[QUOTE=Vince]Interesting. After you mentioned that you might have been confused about your information, I went back and checked my own and found out that I too had misread my message. Anyhow...what could this (st. cronin and blade's early votes) mean? st. cronin seems to be quite straightforward in that he's following his faction leader's "orders," but Blade is being rather cryptic.

Possibly an assassin move? They don't care about gaining or losing points, because they know who they are voting for (whether or not they're an assassin) in advance. Either of them could be throwing this out there, and it could be an utter smoke screen (anyone who didn't receive a similar message to st. cronin would just assume it was the other faction, while Blade's just being cryptic -- not that I'm criticizing him).

I don't remember ever seeing Blade so decisive...though it's very preliminary, and I'm open to changing my vote, I'm not sure how available I'll be for the next few hours, so I'm going to put in a vote now just in case.

Vote Blade6119 Execute.

I start work tonight at 4 PM PST, so I'm gone after that for sure. Between now and then, I should be fairly available, but you never know.[/QUOTE

I think that's a good vote.

You might want to fix your quote tags, so it doesn't look like a vote by you.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 02:12 PM

Gonna have to go into it a little more if you want me to change my vote at this point. You're just not adding up to me.

Vote Blade Execute

I cant right now...do what you will...im a noble, and if you kill me it will help the assasins...im not going to elaborate and compromise any of my faction members

saldana

12-05-2005, 02:12 PM

st cronin, make sure when you post a reply to a specific post, you quote it right,...your reply in 137 makes it look like two separate votes for blade. not trying to be a dick, that just confused me for a minute.

Vince

12-05-2005, 02:17 PM

Hrm. Just read the rules, and I can't just plain 'unvote,' or the vote stays. I have to have someone else to vote for. Thought I'd point this out for anyone else who might have missed it.

I'm not so sure Blade is the right person to lynch (who ever is sure of themselves on day 1?), but I don't have much else to go on. Let's take a look at st. cronin...

Apparently, his faction leader sent him a message. This message either directly told him to vote for ardent (I doubt this, but it's a possibility), or suggested someone to vote for in a more cryptic manner (and would explain the reading comprehension issue a little). This has to be an effort to identify members of his faction -- but how can any further votes be trusted? People could be piling on, especially after st. cronin explained his reasoning for the vote. Now everyone who votes ardent has a cover -- 'I was doing it because my faction leader said to.' This bears some watching.

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 02:18 PM

I fixed the quote tags. Somehow they got clipped. Sorry for the confusion.

Vince

12-05-2005, 02:18 PM

I think that's a good vote.

(edited to fix the quote tags, not for content)
Thanks :)

Vince

12-05-2005, 02:20 PM

I think that's a good vote.

(edited to fix the quote tags, not for content)
Dola -- and for what it's worth, your early vote seems like a pretty smart play. Identifying members of your own faction seems to be a pretty potent play -- the assassins don't really gain anything (though they could pick off an entire faction, I guess), since they already know who is and is not an assassin, and you help yourself from losing your team points by having a more informed vote.

McSweeny

12-05-2005, 02:20 PM

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 02:22 PM

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 02:23 PM

st. cronin also said that his faction leader hasn't posted yet, so we might be able to narrow it down some. and what role could blade have that would give him a reason to vote for someone even before night 0 happened?

I went through the list of roles before I voted...and can't fathom what it'd be. Unless I'm just totally oblivious, either he's voting based on past games, or he's lying through his teeth.

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 02:23 PM

st. cronin also said that his faction leader hasn't posted yet, so we might be able to narrow it down some.

Are you sure you want to ask that question...seems like a wolf question...just saying

NOW BACK TO LYNCHING ME DESPITE MY PROTESTS

Vince

12-05-2005, 02:30 PM

dubb93

12-05-2005, 02:32 PM

st. cronin also said that his faction leader hasn't posted yet, so we might be able to narrow it down some.?

Yea, I REALLY don't like that question...

VOTE McSweeny JAIL

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 02:34 PM

Maybe, but why does that mean you should believe him?

Blade6119

12-05-2005, 02:36 PM

I'm glad I got that vote out there -- seems to have stirred up some debate (the villager's best friend in a werewolf game, usually). That being said...

Unvote Blade6119.
Vote Mr. Wednesday Execute.

After consideration, I see no reason for Blade to make a play like that if he were a bad guy.

While i appreciate you believing me, i ask you not to go the wednesday route right now...i have something that could be damning of him or could screw me over too...i put it out there to see what he does, and i dont really want an innocent to die(which he could be). Just saying

Vince

12-05-2005, 02:45 PM

Doesn't talking about 'making him talk' defeat the purpose of the play?

For now, I guess I'm going to leave my vote on him -- I see no other candidates, and if I continually switch my vote, that looks rather foolish.

Pass -- I've deduced (though he's trying to convince me not to now) that I should believe him. Not much more to it than that. Also, now that I've voted, I have to have someone voted for at all times, so I can't just say 'unvote blade,' because that wouldn't (according to the rules) change my vote at all.

McSweeny

12-05-2005, 03:00 PM

Are you sure you want to ask that question...seems like a wolf question...just saying

NOW BACK TO LYNCHING ME DESPITE MY PROTESTSnot at all, it just seems to me that if his faction leader had indeed told him who to vote for, he wouldn't be the only one voting to execute ardent right? There should be a few more votes coming down for ardent if st. cronin's faction leader shared his information with the entire faction and until more votes come down for ardent we should at least keep in mind that it could be a wolfish move by st. cronin. That's all i was trying to get at

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 03:14 PM

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 03:16 PM

I'll back McSweeny on this one a little bit:

I'm interested in knowing who the other faction leader(s) is/are, since they are known nobles and because they are secondary opposition.

My biggest interest is figuring out who is part of my faction, but figuring out the other roles (both assassins and other factions) isn't too far behind.

Thus, I don't think that trying to deduce who the other faction leader is particularly wolfish behavior. Sure it benefits a wolf to know this, but if the blackmail is a Night 0 only opportunity, then is there really any greater value of this noble versus another noble for the wolves? If they take down the faction leader another person in the faction will assume his mantle - it isn't like the faction goes without a leader. Unless I'm really not recalling the rules very well, which is possible on Day 1 ....

What do you mean, 'other' faction leader(s)? Do we know one?

Mr. Wednesday

12-05-2005, 03:22 PM

So that would make your faction leader Mr. Wednesday?It's the other way around -- ardent has a rule to kill me, but I don't have a rule to kill ardent.

(Except sometimes when I'm a wolf (or an assassin, or mafioso, or whatever).)

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 03:25 PM

Pass, everyone who is a noble should know the identity of their faction leader. I know that I'm aware of my faction leader. I know that I received a message last night.

Vince

12-05-2005, 03:35 PM

I'll back McSweeny on this one a little bit:

I'm interested in knowing who the other faction leader(s) is/are, since they are known nobles and because they are secondary opposition.

My biggest interest is figuring out who is part of my faction, but figuring out the other roles (both assassins and other factions) isn't too far behind.

Thus, I don't think that trying to deduce who the other faction leader is particularly wolfish behavior. Sure it benefits a wolf to know this, but if the blackmail is a Night 0 only opportunity, then is there really any greater value of this noble versus another noble for the wolves? If they take down the faction leader another person in the faction will assume his mantle - it isn't like the faction goes without a leader. Unless I'm really not recalling the rules very well, which is possible on Day 1 ....
Is blackmail a night 0 only option? I'm going to go re-read the rules to find out.

If so, wouldn't it behoove the nobles to wipe out the leaders early, if only to avoid the potential of a blackmailed noble leader? The point penalty would be severe, but the reward would be great. I'm not suggesting it as a potential course of action yet, but as a source of discussion. Would this be a plausible strategy?

Vince

12-05-2005, 03:38 PM

Completely ignore the post above -- I hadn't fully read the blackmail rules yet.

So they could have blackmailed anyone. Hrm.

Vince

12-05-2005, 03:48 PM

Double dola --

I'm probably not going to be around much tomorrow -- I open at work, and am not usually an early riser. So I probably won't be online until after work (~4:30 PST), and then I have a softball playoff game tomorrow night. So I'll have to slog through everything, and then put a vote in.

If I'm still alive, that is -- you never can tell what's going to happen.

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 04:31 PM

Pass, everyone who is a noble should know the identity of their faction leader. I know that I'm aware of my faction leader. I know that I received a message last night.

Thanks. I thought one might have been outed publicly.

TazFTW

12-05-2005, 04:42 PM

:sigh: I haven't played a ww game in a while and I forgot how confusing things get sometimes.

If I read correctly, blade voting for Wednesday is to fish out somebody. st.cronin is voting based on something he deduced from a pm and the other votes seem to be because blade cast the first stone.

I have no idea who to vote for.

Vince

12-05-2005, 05:10 PM

Ok, I'm out of here in a few minutes, and until then I'm going to be paying bills and other such nonsense. So good luck tonight gentlemen -- looks like I'm sticking with Mr. Wednesday.

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 05:31 PM

Time to start thinking about a vote ...

I've got nothing for or against the people involved in the voting patterns so far:
1.) Blade vs MrW
2.) Cronin vs Ardent
Has anyone else received votes besides Blade, MrW, and AE?

I'm starting to form an initial circle of trust but I don't see any value-add in discussing it within this forum since that would provide linkage to my faction. I'm not inclined to cast a vote for the silent guy because I don't believe that wolves take the first day off from posting (Desnudo, Pennywise, and RPI are beneficiaries of this belief). So removing my early trust group, the four finger-pointers, and three silent guys I'm left with a little less than half the group to choose from.

Random number generator at this point would be nearly as strong an argument as I have for picking the person I ended up choosing. Hopefully it helps with auditing voting patterns later and in an ideal world would lead to an assassin lynch.

EXECUTE DUBB93

And, just to set the record straight, it has zero to do with our last werewolf game where I felt like he played a very good game as a villager. In fact, that thought almost kept me from firing my initial vote in this direction. But post #141 "You guys seem to have actually gotten good messages from your leader, all I got was my leader wanting to be crowned." left me a little anxious. At this point I think there are only two factions and that your leader message doesn't seem to gel with anything other people have posted up until now.

Barkeep49

12-05-2005, 05:39 PM

I will count all such votes before now but make sure the vote is the last thing int he post. It makes it FAR easier for me to count votes.

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 05:41 PM

And, just to set the record straight, it has zero to do with our last werewolf game where I felt like he played a very good game as a villager. In fact, that thought almost kept me from firing my initial vote in this direction. But post #141 "You guys seem to have actually gotten good messages from your leader, all I got was my leader wanting to be crowned." left me a little anxious. At this point I think there are only two factions and that your leader message doesn't seem to gel with anything other people have posted up until now.

Well, if you can trust me on this one hoops...I CAN (and will) back up dubb's statement, now that you brought it up. I must of glossed over it the first time around.

But, the message from my faction leader was indeed a "let's get me crowned" message. I'll go out on a limb and stick my neck out for dubbs here.

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 05:42 PM

That's interesting, hoopsguy. I didn't notice that post by dubb. Should we ask for people in his faction to defend him (I mean, other people should have received the same message).

Also, I might add, that I've only seen one person follow the instructions my leader has given. So my guess is there are more than just two factions.

Vince

12-05-2005, 05:44 PM

hoops -- not sure if this will change your vote at all, but here are my thoughts on the factions.

Two different possibilities here --

2 Factions: 7, 7 and 4 Assassins.

3 Factions: 5, 5, 5 and 3 Assassins.

I have come to the conclusion that there are 3 different factions, and the assassins. Four assassins to start seems incredibly stacked towards the assassins, as they are assured of at least 2 possible converts (Fast Talkers) and one potential blackmail, making a total of 7 Assassins possible at one time. I think that's just too much.

On top of that, the assassins can 'get tired' of fast talkers -- I don't think that would come into play with only two potential fast talkers, so I would assume there are three -- one for each faction. I guess this doesn't include the possibility that there are additional fast talkers beyond the guaranteed one per faction, but I still think there are three factions.

Any other reasons to execute Dubb other than post #141?

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 05:45 PM

Joe

12-05-2005, 05:55 PM

I don't really know who to vote for, but fishing for faction leaders appears a bit wolfish, so

vote execute mcsweeney

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 05:56 PM

hoops -- not sure if this will change your vote at all, but here are my thoughts on the factions.

Two different possibilities here --

2 Factions: 7, 7 and 4 Assassins.

3 Factions: 5, 5, 5 and 3 Assassins.

I doubt everyone has posted, but it seems like my faction has only 3. If 18 gives us a special balance number, maybe 5 factions of 3 and 3 assassins?

Joe

12-05-2005, 05:56 PM

question for barkeep: are all of the deadlines going to be 12 hours from night to end of voting stage?

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 05:58 PM

And further, while I'm not going to change my vote yet (because I don't for the life of me have any idea WHO to vote for now), I now think I have figured out why Blade voted how he did and when he did, and believe him to be on the up and up. If I'm not just second/third/fourth guessing myself, it was/is a badass strategy.

The only thing I could think of was the post where Barkeep was trolling for night actions. But then I realized that even nobles have night actions. So I'm back at square one with him.

Barkeep49

12-05-2005, 06:04 PM

question for barkeep: are all of the deadlines going to be 12 hours from night to end of voting stage?
Day 1 was an exception becuase it is typically a slow day and so I wanted to get us past it. There will generally be about 24 hours from the start of a Day cycle to an execution; I wanted a more slow paced game not only for my sanity but to try and allow people with slightly busier schedules more of a chance to play. There will be about 12 hours from the Start of a Night Cycle to the start of a Day cycle.

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 06:05 PM

Sigh. I hate to pile onto anyone right now, but the only even REMOTE suggestion that clicks with me at this point is the twitch from McSweeny. I feel confident I've figured out that Blade fiasco, and as I've got mostly jack anywhere else...

(and for anyone questioning execute instead of jail...I don't believe jailtime serves us any purpose right now. We need SOME sort of real voting record to work with.)

Unvote Blade

Vote McSweeney Execute

Poli

12-05-2005, 06:08 PM

Got a lot of catching up to do! I'm on post 80!

Vince

12-05-2005, 06:09 PM

Honestly, I think the voting record would be fine from the jail votes as well -- it just doesn't tell us anything because we don't find out who/what the jailbird was.

Pass -- when you say three in your faction, are you including yourself and your leader? So you've only identified one other person?

Also, for Barkeep -- how are you determining first votes when people change their vote? Each vote is it's own entity (ie, I vote for X as the first vote, and he is a noble, then I change to Y as a first vote for him, and HE is a noble as well, do I get both penalties?), or is the final vote that I make in one day the only one that affects my points?

Vince

12-05-2005, 06:10 PM

I'm going to be late for work because of Werewolf again. Sweet. I'm out for real now guys, have a good one!

Joe

12-05-2005, 06:10 PM

Day 1 was an exception becuase it is typically a slow day and so I wanted to get us past it. There will generally be about 24 hours from the start of a Day cycle to an execution; I wanted a more slow paced game not only for my sanity but to try and allow people with slightly busier schedules more of a chance to play. There will be about 12 hours from the Start of a Night Cycle to the start of a Day cycle.

Cool, thanks. I thought I read 24 hours somewhere. I had FOFC access from work for all of a week until they figured out the new server address and got it blocked. So I am now unavailable from 8 to 5 CST, hope its not a big problem.

Poli

12-05-2005, 06:12 PM

Got a lot of catching up to do! I'm on post 80!Anyone got a Cliff Notes before I start browsing?

Barkeep49

12-05-2005, 06:13 PM

Cool, thanks. I thought I read 24 hours somewhere. I had FOFC access from work for all of a week until they figured out the new server address and got it blocked. So I am now unavailable from 8 to 5 CST, hope its not a big problem.
I am essentially unavailable most days AT LEAST from 9 to 5 CST, so I hear you.

Also, for Barkeep -- how are you determining first votes when people change their vote? Each vote is it's own entity (ie, I vote for X as the first vote, and he is a noble, then I change to Y as a first vote for him, and HE is a noble as well, do I get both penalties?), or is the final vote that I make in one day the only one that affects my points?

You only get the penalty for your final vote. The timing is purely used as a tiebreaker mechanism.

Joe

12-05-2005, 06:13 PM

as far as factions go, I have identifed 3 total people in mine (including myself), based on last night's message. so I think we are looking at smaller factions of a high number.

McSweeny

12-05-2005, 06:14 PM

so i just went through and counted up the votes we have so far

McSweeny - Coffee Warlord, GWB, Dubb
Mr. Wednesday - Vince, Blade
Blade - Pass
Ardent Enthusiast - st. cronin
Dubb - Hoopsguy

and i think that's what we've got so far

Poli

12-05-2005, 06:16 PM

Wow, someone's voted for me already?

Poli

12-05-2005, 06:23 PM

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 06:24 PM

Oh Shizzle. I'd love to see that message.

Don't take this to mean anybody has any ideas about you. I don't know anybody that wants you jailed or executed.

Poli

12-05-2005, 06:28 PM

It's the other way around -- ardent has a rule to kill me, but I don't have a rule to kill ardent.

(Except sometimes when I'm a wolf (or an assassin, or mafioso, or whatever).)Uh oh. :cool:

Poli

12-05-2005, 06:29 PM

Don't take this to mean anybody has any ideas about you. I don't know anybody that wants you jailed or executed.
Time for me to breathe a sigh of relief. I just finished everything as well.

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 06:30 PM

While I go start dinner...has anyone NOT posted anything yet?

Poli

12-05-2005, 06:37 PM

I will now vote. Blade, this has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Vote Blade6119 execute

saldana

12-05-2005, 06:41 PM

this is a tough day, lots more stuff than a typical game. i am still not too sure about dubb's comment, but i like mcsweeny's bit of fishing about blades role even less. it seems to me that he is trying very hard to identify everyone in a very obvious way.

VOTE MCSWEENEY EXECUTE

Mr. Wednesday

12-05-2005, 06:41 PM

I hate my options right now. I'm not convinced McSweeny is trying to draw out faction leaders, I don't know what's going on with Blade.

VOTE DUBB93 JAIL

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 06:42 PM

I hate my options right now. I'm not convinced McSweeny is trying to draw out faction leaders, I don't know what's going on with Blade.

VOTE DUBB93 JAIL

I like this vote.

McSweeny

12-05-2005, 06:45 PM

alright, i guess i've got to act in self-preservation mode now huh? Blade's reasoning was rather cryptic and his vote was alarmingly quick. There's too much of this "i know something you guys don't and i won't be telling you or doing anything to alleviate your fears" for my liking. So with that....

VOTE BLADE6119 EXECUTE

Schmidty

12-05-2005, 06:48 PM

I can't find any good reason to vote for anyone, despite the comments from people that have cast their votes so far. There's just not much to go on. Dubb's comment is the only one that even remotely seemed odd to me (and it still could have been innocent). Going by that, I'll cast my vote for him; but since I'm just not sure about anything, I won't vote for an execute.

VOTE DUBB JAIL

RPI-Fan

12-05-2005, 06:49 PM

Guys, sorry I was out all day... still behind schedule from an exhausting weekend...

Just got all caught up:

I, too, am one who hasn't seemed to receive a helpful message from my leader (little disappointed in that, in fact).

Because of that, I'm going to go off of who I feel very comfortable with, and

VOTE MCSWEENY EXECUTE

RPI-Fan

12-05-2005, 06:51 PM

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 06:54 PM

Someone have a count of votes at this point? I'll start working on it if no one else has up to this point.

Coffee, I'll remove the vote from Dubb if you are vouching for him. It doesn't mean a great deal in terms of noble/assassin, but it does establish linkage for later in the game and it generally isn't a wolf play to provide that info. Particularly when he wasn't in real danger at that time.

RPI-Fan

12-05-2005, 06:59 PM

This is going off of McSweeney's post at around #180 (I took that as accurate, and then tallied from there...

McSweeny - Coffee Warlord, GWB, Dubb, RPI-Fan
Mr. Wednesday - Vince, Blade
Blade - Pass, ardent, McSweeny
Ardent Enthusiast - st. cronin
Dubb - Hoopsguy, Mr. W (jail), Schmidty (jail)

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 06:59 PM

Joe

12-05-2005, 07:00 PM

who hasnt voted yet? I count 5 votes missing, we have 18 players and 13 votes

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 07:05 PM

Desnudo and Pennywise have not showed up at all in the thread today, going from memory.

TazFTW

12-05-2005, 07:06 PM

Not a big fan of executing someone Day 1, so I'll jail someone.

Vote Blade6119 Jail

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 07:22 PM

Here is what I show for voting through Post #209

Post #96 Blade votes EXECUTE MRW
Post #102 Cronin votes EXECUTE AE
Post #136 Vince votes EXECUTE BLADE
Post #140 Coffee votes EXECUTE BLADE
Post #142 Pass votes EXECUTE BLADE
Post #154 Vince unvotes, votes EXECUTE MRW
Post #155 Dubb votes JAIL MCSWEENY
Post #170 Hoopsguy votes EXECUTE DUBB
Post #176 GWB votes EXECUTE MCSWEENY
Post #181 Coffee unvotes, votes EXECUTE MCSWEENY
Post #196 Ardent votes EXECUTE BLADE
Post #197 Saldana votes EXECUTE MCSWEENY
Post #198 MrW votes JAIL DUBB
Post #200 McSweeny votes EXECUTE BLADE
Post #201 Schmidty votes JAIL DUBB
Post #202 RPI votes EXECUTE MCSWEENY
Post #209 Taz votes JAIL BLADE

MRW - Blade (E), Vince (E)
AE - Cronin (E)
Blade - Pass (E), Ardent (E), McSweeny (E), Taz (J)
McSweeny - Dubb (J), GWB (E), Coffee (E), Saldana (E), RPI (E)
Dubb - Hoopsguy (E), MRW (J), Schmidty (J)

Five on McS, four on Blade, three on Dubb, two on MrW, and one on AE. I'm planning to move mine from Dubb. But based on some of the posts I've read I'm not confident that either of our vote leaders are wolves/assassins.

saldana

12-05-2005, 07:23 PM

i voted for mcsweeney in post 197, but its not in the last count

with that, i will be out until after the vote...the site is blocked for me at work after 830 until i can get the IT guy to move my break window for me.

Schmidty

12-05-2005, 07:24 PM

But based on some of the posts I've read I'm not confident that either of our vote leaders are wolves/assassins.

I'd be suspicious of anyone who is confident of anything at this point.

RPI-Fan

12-05-2005, 07:26 PM

Five on McS, four on Blade, three on Dubb, two on MrW, and one on AE. I'm planning to move mine from Dubb. But based on some of the posts I've read I'm not confident that either of our vote leaders are wolves/assassins.

This is the thing, and also explains why I was SO against Pass last game.

You NEVER have a good idea who the wolves are on Day 1. So given that there was I'd say at least a 25% chance Pass was a wolf (and if he wasn't and we let him live, his herbalist powers were wasted), there was no doubt in my mind that he had to go, even though there was a GOOD chance that he was a villager.

Same thing here, to a lesser extent. All you can do, is play the odds and hope to go from there.

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 07:30 PM

I don't have any ideas yet, except for that I do know who my faction leader is, and I don't *think* you can be a faction leader and an assasin.

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 07:32 PM

Post #196 from AE:
I will now vote. Blade, this has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Vote Blade6119 execute

OK, if it has nothing to do with Blade then it should have something to do with following votes from your peers? But at the time you cast the vote the only person that I saw who still had their vote on Blade was Passacaglia.

There have been two votes that followed, but those should not have factored into your thinking. So are you suggesting that you know you are aligned with Passacaglia?

For what it is worth here, I don't think I'm doing the work of the werewolfs in flushing out a faction leader in Pass. I'm pretty suspicious that this is a wolf trying to dump a vote on a non-wolf on Day 1. Pretty typical WW play ...

So I know that I had posted earlier that I wasn't intending to cast my vote in the direction of one of the initial four pointing at each other (AE/Cronin and Blade/MrW) but I'm growing more convinced on the re-reads that Dubb is a member of a faction and not an assassin.

UNVOTE EXECUTE DUBB93
VOTE EXECUTE ARDENT ENTHUSIAST

Finally, the reason that I think that there are only two factions is because I think I'm reading the tea leaves correctly in determining that there are a sufficient number of people in one faction (perhaps mine, perhaps another one where I've decoded patterns) to suggest that the faction is larger than five. If there is a faction larger than five (not convinced, but think this is the case) then that strongly suggests only two noble factions.

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 07:35 PM

Post #196 from AE:

OK, if it has nothing to do with Blade then it should have something to do with following votes from your peers? But at the time you cast the vote the only person that I saw who still had their vote on Blade was Passacaglia.

There have been two votes that followed, but those should not have factored into your thinking. So are you suggesting that you know you are aligned with Passacaglia?

For what it is worth here, I don't think I'm doing the work of the werewolfs in flushing out a faction leader in Pass. I'm pretty suspicious that this is a wolf trying to dump a vote on a non-wolf on Day 1. Pretty typical WW play ...

So I know that I had posted earlier that I wasn't intending to cast my vote in the direction of one of the initial four pointing at each other (AE/Cronin and Blade/MrW) but I'm growing more convinced on the re-reads that Dubb is a member of a faction and not an assassin.

UNVOTE EXECUTE DUBB93
VOTE EXECUTE ARDENT ENTHUSIAST

Finally, the reason that I think that there are only two factions is because I think I'm reading the tea leaves correctly in determining that there are a sufficient number of people in one faction (perhaps mine, perhaps another one where I've decoded patterns) to suggest that the faction is larger than five. If there is a faction larger than five (not convinced, but think this is the case) then that strongly suggests only two noble factions.

I am pretty sure your analysis is totally wrong, although your conclusion may be correct.

- My vote for ae was not based on anything I thought *about* ae; at any rate, ae voted for somebody else, so you could hardly say we were pointing fingers at each other.

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 07:36 PM

Cronin, if the faction leader was blackmailed on Night 0 then he will count as an assassin for purposes of the 1:1 ratio. I asked that question earlier. However, I'm hoping we will have some ideas about this from voting tally when points are awarded/removed.

Also, I think I flip-flopped my name/execute. Just to be safe ...

UNVOTE DUBB93 EXECUTE
VOTE ARDENT ENTHUSIAST EXECUTE

Mr. Wednesday

12-05-2005, 07:37 PM

UNVOTE DUBB93 JAIL
VOTE BLADE6119 JAIL

kingfc22

12-05-2005, 07:39 PM

hoops -- not sure if this will change your vote at all, but here are my thoughts on the factions.

Two different possibilities here --

2 Factions: 7, 7 and 4 Assassins.
3 Factions: 5, 5, 5 and 3 Assassins.

I have come to the conclusion that there are 3 different factions, and the assassins. Four assassins to start seems incredibly stacked towards the assassins, as they are assured of at least 2 possible converts (Fast Talkers) and one potential blackmail, making a total of 7 Assassins possible at one time. I think that's just too much.

Just got home and as I was catching up I found this post. I am also inclined to believe that there are 3 factions. Just seems more likely for game balance purposes.

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 07:40 PM

Cronin, my vote had nothing to do with you/AE except to state that I was initially going to look in another direction in order to generate some new conversation. Thus I cast a vote on Dubb based on the 'no second on faction leader statement' logic. Conversation generated, I'm now feeling fairly confident of his noble status - or at least able to link him to other players if he is an assassin. So I moved on to look at further comments and stumbled across that post/vote from AE that disturbed me.

I would now expect that AE would respond. Perhaps by saying he is a Dreamweaver ;)

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 07:43 PM

King, on that post by Vince:

1.) The size of the factions don't have to be even, particularly if the capabilities of the factions give one an advantage over the other.
2.) Two Fast Talkers can only be converted if they are killed by the wolves rather than lynched by the nobles/wolves. The odds of them getting both are not especially high unless we only jail people while the wolves kill people.

kingfc22

12-05-2005, 07:45 PM

I really don't have a good read on any of the vote leaders today. I don't want to cast a "deciding" vote that will come back to haunt me later in the game.

So for now VOTE DUBB JAIL

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 07:50 PM

Ties will be decided based on the first vote cast (votes which are unvoted and reinstated are counted at the time of the reinstatement).

MrW, in changing your vote you have just changed the lynch from McSweeny to Blade if it holds up. Just making sure you understand that as it is a pretty significant vote. Not telling you to change it, but would have loved to see some explanation for it.

dubb93

12-05-2005, 07:50 PM

I really don't have a good read on any of the vote leaders today. I don't want to cast a "deciding" vote that will come back to haunt me later in the game.

So for now VOTE DUBB JAIL

That is going to hurt your faction in long run(points). Keep in mind in this game more than any other you have to make every vote count. I would dig through the thread a little more and make your vote count.

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 07:50 PM

Dola - here is how I show the votes as of Post #222:

Post #96 Blade votes EXECUTE MRW
Post #102 Cronin votes EXECUTE AE
Post #136 Vince votes EXECUTE BLADE
Post #140 Coffee votes EXECUTE BLADE
Post #142 Pass votes EXECUTE BLADE
Post #154 Vince unvotes, votes EXECUTE MRW
Post #155 Dubb votes JAIL MCSWEENY
Post #170 Hoopsguy votes EXECUTE DUBB
Post #176 GWB votes EXECUTE MCSWEENY
Post #181 Coffee unvotes, votes EXECUTE MCSWEENY
Post #196 Ardent votes EXECUTE BLADE
Post #197 Saldana votes EXECUTE MCSWEENY
Post #198 MrW votes JAIL DUBB
Post #200 McSweeny votes EXECUTE BLADE
Post #201 Schmidty votes JAIL DUBB
Post #202 RPI votes EXECUTE MCSWEENY
Post #209 Taz votes JAIL BLADE
Post #217 Hoopsguy unvotes, votes EXECUTE AE
Post #218 MrW unvotes Dubb, votes JAIL BLADE
Post #222 King votes JAIL DUBB

MRW - Blade (E), Vince (E)
AE - Cronin (E), Hoopsguy (E)
Blade - Pass (E), Ardent (E), McSweeny (E), Taz (J), MrW (J)
McSweeny - Dubb (J), GWB (E), Coffee (E), Saldana (E), RPI (E)
Dubb - Schmidty (J), King (J)

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 07:54 PM

Please take your vote off Blade, guys. I don't think he's an assasin, *or* a faction leader. We need to talk about somebody else.

dubb93

12-05-2005, 07:56 PM

Please take your vote off Blade, guys. I don't think he's an assasin, *or* a faction leader. We need to talk about somebody else.

How are you so sure, and who else do we need to talk about?

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 07:57 PM

FWIW I don't have any feel for Blade's faction, but I'm intrigued enough by his play that I would prefer to have him live and see where he heads tomorrow morning.

kingfc22

12-05-2005, 07:59 PM

That is going to hurt your faction in long run(points). Keep in mind in this game more than any other you have to make every vote count. I would dig through the thread a little more and make your vote count.
+.5 points for any person voting to free a member of his faction from jail
+1.5 point for the first person to vote to send an assassin to jail
+1.5 point for the “lynching” vote to send an assassin to jail.
-.5 points for the first person to vote to send a noble to jail
-.5 points for the “lynching” vote to send a noble to jail

I'm not the first to vote for you and I'm not the "lynch" vote, so unless I'm reading the rules wrong I don't see how I'm hurting my faction.

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 08:00 PM

Just found/remembered this while re-reading the rules:
His vote carries twice the weight for determining if a person is jailed or executed

So our tie may not really be a tie.

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 08:01 PM

I would love to hear some discussion on Ardent, since I voted for him and made a case for why I did in Post #215.

st.cronin

12-05-2005, 08:02 PM

How are you so sure, and who else do we need to talk about?

His early play was odd and aggressive, but definitely *not* wolf-like. I suppose he might be a faction leader, but I think it's more likely that he's a special noble of some sort ... in which case we want him alive.

How about somebody who hasn't been that active??

UNVOTE ARDENT ENTHUSIAST EXECUTE

VOTE JAIL GEORGE W. BUSH

I also think jail is our friend, even at this point. I just am not convinced we need to kill somebody.

dubb93

12-05-2005, 08:10 PM

+.5 points for any person voting to free a member of his faction from jail
+1.5 point for the first person to vote to send an assassin to jail
+1.5 point for the “lynching” vote to send an assassin to jail.
-.5 points for the first person to vote to send a noble to jail
-.5 points for the “lynching” vote to send a noble to jail

I'm not the first to vote for you and I'm not the "lynch" vote, so unless I'm reading the rules wrong I don't see how I'm hurting my faction.

True, but if you re-read the thread I think I've been cleared ;)

Anyway, I think after today I'm going to vote to lynch for the following reason:

Just as I did today, it's easy to summarize the post your leader gave you and have someone back you up on it. I see no problem with known nobles, although it may be best to keep it secret untill you need it. Obviously if it came to it, many of us could back up our leader.

If the assassins want to vouche for each other that is their own decision, but it will only save them a day and get an extra one of them killed. I guess what I'm saying, is if you are a noble in this game and stupid enough to get executed, I don't feel sorry for excuting you.

Obviously once 1 PM has been summarized, it becomes more of a crap shoot to decide if someone is telling the truth, but at this point I have knocked my list of potential assassins down by nearly 1/4.

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 08:10 PM

Vince, yes, three total. The leader, me, and one other.

dubb93

12-05-2005, 08:11 PM

True, but if you re-read the thread I think I've been cleared ;)

Anyway, I think after today I'm going to vote to lynch for the following reason:

Just as I did today, it's easy to summarize the post your leader gave you and have someone back you up on it. I see no problem with known nobles, although it may be best to keep it secret untill you need it. Obviously if it came to it, many of us could back up our leader.

If the assassins want to vouche for each other that is their own decision, but it will only save them a day and get an extra one of them killed. I guess what I'm saying, is if you are a noble in this game and stupid enough to get executed, I don't feel sorry for excuting you.

Obviously once 1 PM has been summarized, it becomes more of a crap shoot to decide if someone is telling the truth, but at this point I have knocked my list of potential assassins down by nearly 1/4.

If we are going to use this strat, it is important that no one summarize their PM unless their head is on the chopping block.

kingfc22

12-05-2005, 08:13 PM

Vince, yes, three total. The leader, me, and one other.
What are you refering to Pass?

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 08:15 PM

Pass, are you referring in Post #234 to your circle of trust?

If I'm making correct assumptions across the board (probably not, but hopefully very close) then I have a reasonable feel for over half of the nobles in a two faction game. If it is a three faction game then I've counted 1-2 people on a faction based on a bad read of their 'tell'.

Desnudo

12-05-2005, 08:21 PM

Sorry, I was in meetings all day. I think there might have a been a flub up with my role that may disqualify me, so Barkeep, please check a PM.

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 08:22 PM

What are you refering to Pass?

Sorry. In a MUCH earlier post, Vince asked about my contention that there were exactly three in my faction, including the leader and myself. I said that this is true.

I'm thinking we're way off-base with the 2 or 3 factions. We could be looking at 4 or 5.

Passacaglia

12-05-2005, 08:26 PM

hoops, can you explain why you voted for AE?

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 08:41 PM

Pass, re-post from #215:

Post #196 from AE:

Quote:
I will now vote. Blade, this has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Vote Blade6119 execute

OK, if it has nothing to do with Blade then it should have something to do with following votes from your peers? But at the time you cast the vote the only person that I saw who still had their vote on Blade was Passacaglia.

There have been two votes that followed, but those should not have factored into your thinking. So are you suggesting that you know you are aligned with Passacaglia?

For what it is worth here, I don't think I'm doing the work of the werewolfs in flushing out a faction leader in Pass. I'm pretty suspicious that this is a wolf trying to dump a vote on a non-wolf on Day 1. Pretty typical WW play ...

So I know that I had posted earlier that I wasn't intending to cast my vote in the direction of one of the initial four pointing at each other (AE/Cronin and Blade/MrW) but I'm growing more convinced on the re-reads that Dubb is a member of a faction and not an assassin.

UNVOTE EXECUTE DUBB93
VOTE EXECUTE ARDENT ENTHUSIAST

dubb93

12-05-2005, 08:46 PM

I also think jail is our friend, even at this point. I just am not convinced we need to kill somebody.

Read my last post on jail. I think someone we need to look at(and he's going to be pissed at me for doing this) is Saldana for tomorrow. I can't place him in a faction for the life of me and that makes his vote for McSweeney all the more puzzling. It is odd to call suspecision on me, and then go ahead and vote for the guy I'm voting for.

Also up there are Schmidty and King. They can't figure out that the hint stick was flogging them after(and in some cases) before they voted for me. If McSweeney is lynched and he's innocent Saldana is a good place to start tomorrow, he can always clear himself with his PM. ;) I have a good feel for everyone else that is on McSweeney.

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 08:55 PM

Dubb, I have a high level of confidence in one person on that list in Post #242. And there isn't one person that you have listed that rates as highly suspicious on my 'wolf' list.

Just want to make sure that is out there in the event that I run into a knife this evening ...

Mr. Wednesday

12-05-2005, 08:59 PM

For better or for worse, I just feel like we're jumping on McSweeny unfairly. Hopefully, I'm putting Blade in jail, not getting him killed.

McSweeny

12-05-2005, 09:00 PM

Read my last post on jail. I think someone we need to look at(and he's going to be pissed at me for doing this) is Saldana for tomorrow. I can't place him in a faction for the life of me and that makes his vote for McSweeney all the more puzzling. It is odd to call suspecision on me, and then go ahead and vote for the guy I'm voting for.

Also up there are Schmidty and King. They can't figure out that the hint stick was flogging them after(and in some cases) before they voted for me. If McSweeney is lynched and he's innocent Saldana is a good place to start tomorrow, he can always clear himself with his PM. ;) I have a good feel for everyone else that is on McSweeney.it's pretty obvious that they're just piling on me in hopes to avoid future detection. so after i'm lynched and proven to be innocent, the bandwagon jumpers will say something like "well i was just going along with everyone's logic", and yet as you say it is indeed quite odd to call you out and then vote for the same person you are

Mr. Wednesday

12-05-2005, 09:01 PM

Dola, this being day 1, the reasons for voting for someone are either a) seer/witness/etc. reveal (unusual), b) blind luck, c) intuition, d) being a bad guy. We've had all sorts of mutterings of a) out there, but nothing I feel comfortable sorting out (mainly because it accuses me :p), and I know I'm not d), which leaves b) or c). I'm going with c) today.

hoopsguy

12-05-2005, 09:05 PM

Intuition = Blade as bad guy
or
Intuition = McSweeny is not bad guy?

Coffee Warlord

12-05-2005, 09:08 PM

By the way, suggestion for the faction leaders. It might be nice to include whether you are protected during evens or odds phase in tonight's PM. Can't hurt to know.

Mr. Wednesday

12-05-2005, 09:08 PM

dubb93

12-05-2005, 09:21 PM

I'm not convinced Blade is a bad guy, and I'm hopefully getting him in jail, not killing him. I just don't really get the rush to hang McSweeny, I'm not really getting that kind of vibe from his statements and I have some bad memories of rushes to judgement on days 1 of yore.

You do know a kill on night 1 could have been invaluable. For 1, it would have posted all the factions point totals. If you have the factions down reasonably well, you could then deduce if any faction hit on an assassin. Any kills from now on will have tainted point totals(IE more than 1 night of votes to go by).

I'll admit that at the start of the day I wasn't thinking like this, and my vote is still for jail, but there became no point in changing it with the votes for McSweeney all coming in for lynch.