No More Christmas Tree?

[JimmyWint]

The following was take from an article in the USA Today on December 1, 2005.

In city halls and public parks across the country, stories-high evergreens are being erected and decked with glowing lights and sparkling ornaments.
They look - and smell - like Christmas trees. But not so fast.
In places as varied as Chicago, Reno and Prairie Village, Kan., they're "holiday" trees. In other spots, such as Atlanta, they have no name at all.
Perhaps the most heated debate is brewing in Boston. The city's Parks and Recreation Department ignited a furor when it advertised the lighting of a "Holiday Tree," scheduled for tonight.
People complained, and the Nova Scotia logger who donated the spruce told newspapers he'd rather feed the tree to a wood chipper than call it that. Said Boston Mayor Thomas Menino: "I consider this tree to be a Christmas tree."
Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said using the term "Christmas tree" excludes people of other faiths and backgrounds.
"I certainly don't need spiritual sustenance from the government," he said. "I get that in my church."
Respect for diversity is the most common reason given by those that use the term "holiday tree." In the town of Fishers, Ind., officials advertise the annual "tree lighting ceremony," without using the words "Christmas" or "holiday."
"We want to be sensitive to all ethnic backgrounds and religious beliefs," said Marc Steczyk, a town spokesman. "We're in the business of treating all people how they should be treated."

Okay, What is next? We can no longer call Christmas Christmas? What will it be called? Gift exchange day? Oh wait, that would offend people who do not exchange gifts. When will all of this madness end!?

[pennywisesb]

I agree, this is ridiculous. I understand being PC, but this is taking it way too far.

[sterlingice]

I swear- when I take over the world, I'm going to make everyone have a Christmas tree whether they want it or not. That way in 50 or 100 years, after I've been toppled or, more likely, my inept grandson (gotta face facts: great emperor's kids tend to suck), people will finally understand what the founding fathers meant by separation of church and state.

It doesn't mean the secretary in the court house can't put up a Christmas tree or Menorah for fear of it displaying a government endorsement of religion. It means every single employee is free to post whatever the hell they want provided it doesn't broach other laws (ie I can't claim a Playboy poster is my altar to the Church of No Ma'am due to indecency).

SI

[cougarfreak]

I understand being PC

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand one bit of this PC bullshit when it gets taken as far as it has.

[Joe]

PC= crap

[Klinglerware]

Perhaps the solution is for cities and towns to re-cast Christmas as a secular holiday. Christmas was traditionally a secular celebration whose religious undertones remained relatively minor until the past century or so. Thus, it would not be that big of a stretch for society to reclaim Christmas as such...

[sterlingice]

Like it's not already a secular holiday. It's a giant commercialized mess like nothing else during the year. But it's not as if these guys who are an anagram away from being ASSUC would admit that as it would weaken their already silly negotiating position.

SI

[Raiders Army]

Strange times we live in.

[QuikSand]

*stupidy taking the bait*

So, the separation of church and state applies only until there's a pretty good majority that agrees on a certain religion -- then all bets are off?

Nobody is banning anything, and nobody is saying what "we" (or you) can or can't do... all that's happening here is some people suggesting that our government doesn't need to be in the business of displaying religious symbols. And it appears here that for saying so, they are assholes. Got it.

[Klinglerware]

Like it's not already a secular holiday. It's a giant commercialized mess like nothing else during the year. But it's not as if these guys who are an anagram away from being ASSUC would admit that as it would weaken their already silly negotiating position.

SI

Exactly. These governments should just trumpet the fact that Christmas is already a de-facto secular holiday, so the tree should be no big deal...

[Ben E Lou]

*stupidy taking the bait*

So, the separation of church and state applies only until there's a pretty good majority that agrees on a certain religion -- then all bets are off?

Nobody is banning anything, and nobody is saying what "we" (or you) can or can't do... all that's happening here is some people suggesting that our government doesn't need to be in the business of displaying religious symbols. And it appears here that for saying so, they are assholes. Got it.For the most part, I agree with you. The problem, however, is that we've set ourselves up for this by making Christmas a National Holiday in the first place. Partly because it is a National Holiday, people have the expectation that the government will somehow "respect" it as such. You can't have it both ways, and I think our government entities are trying to do that now.

[ThunderingHERD]

What is the big deal here? How exactly does it hurt anyone to have the government refer to their decorations using the adjective "holiday" instead of "Christmas"?

[Glengoyne]

*stupidy taking the bait*

So, the separation of church and state applies only until there's a pretty good majority that agrees on a certain religion -- then all bets are off?

Nobody is banning anything, and nobody is saying what "we" (or you) can or can't do... all that's happening here is some people suggesting that our government doesn't need to be in the business of displaying religious symbols. And it appears here that for saying so, they are assholes. Got it.
I'll bite at the bait too.

Separation of Church and State isn't the concept in the constitution. The Constitution offers the Establishment Clause which prohibits the government from establishing a state religion. Nothing more. I think the removal of traditional "religious" imagery from town squares, city logos, or County Seats is tantamount to an infringement on the free practice of religion. I don't care if we are talking about Hannakuh, Kwanza, Ramadan, or Christmas decorations.

I've said it before. Why on earth should it be society's problem to take steps to prevent distinct minorities from being offended? How many non-Christians are offended by Christmas decorations? How many non-Jews are offended by menorahs(sorry if I spelled that wrong)? Is it wrong to believe that those who are so sensitive that such innocuous things offend them, are in the wrong?

[Glengoyne]

Dola,
Exactly. These governments should just trumpet the fact that Christmas is already a de-facto secular holiday, so the tree should be no big deal... This is actually sort of how I feel. I don't really consider Christmas to be a Christian Holliday. I'm a Christian, but really Santa is the reason for the season...not Jesus.

[Hurst2112]

Dola,
This is actually sort of how I feel. I don't really consider Christmas to be a Christian Holliday. I'm a Christian, but really Santa is the reason for the season...not Jesus.

right on...

Jesus wasn't born on Christmas. He wasn't born in December.

[Klinglerware]

right on...

Jesus wasn't born on Christmas. He wasn't born in December.

Yup, there is no evidence for Jesus actually being born in December. I believe Christmas was invented by the church to pacify former pagans who wanted to keep celebrating the traditional festivals associated with the winter solstice.

[Raiders Army]

So....was Santa Claus at least born on December 25th?

[Hurst2112]

Yup, there is no evidence for Jesus actually being born in December. I believe Christmas was invented by the church to pacify former pagans who wanted to keep celebrating the traditional festivals associated with the winter solstice.

shepards didn't tend their flocks outside in december. they would bring them in by october.

it is speculated that jesus would have been born between april and september as late as 7BC or as early as 4BC.

Luke 2:7-2:8

7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

[Raiders Army]

So April-September was the busy season for tourists back then in Jerusalem? I would guess it's the opposite now since that's the really hot time of the year now.

[Hurst2112]

So....was Santa Claus at least born on December 25th?

Saint Nicholas was born on December 6th.

[GrantDawg]

*stupidy taking the bait*

So, the separation of church and state applies only until there's a pretty good majority that agrees on a certain religion -- then all bets are off?

Nobody is banning anything, and nobody is saying what "we" (or you) can or can't do... all that's happening here is some people suggesting that our government doesn't need to be in the business of displaying religious symbols. And it appears here that for saying so, they are assholes. Got it.

And just as a further note...Christmas trees are not a religious symbol. At least not Chrsitian (it has its orgins from the druids).

[Hurst2112]

So April-September was the busy season for tourists back then in Jerusalem? I would guess it's the opposite now since that's the really hot time of the year now.

From what I know, September nights can be cold in that region. They get snow in december...and the shepherds wouldn't have had their flocks out in bad weather.

[Hurst2112]

And just as a further note...Christmas trees are not a religious symbol. At least not Chrsitian (it has its orgins from the druids).


I would argue that. Some people give credit to Martin Luther for creating the modern day xmas tree.

Father of Lutheranism if i am not mistaken.

Back in the 7th century a monk from Crediton, Devonshire, traveled to Germany to spread the Word of God. Legend has it that he used the triangular shape of the Fir Tree to describe the Holy Trinity of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit to the German people. The German people started to revere the Fir Tree as "God's Tree". In the next 5 centuries, the tree became a symbol of Christianity, and was being hung upside-down from the ceiling as a sign of Christianity.

The first known decorated Christmas Tree was at Riga in Latvia, in 1510. Martin Luther decorated a small Christmas Tree in 1535 with candles for his children, to show them how the stars twinkle through the night.

Veeerrry religious I would say

[GrantDawg]

I would argue that. Some people give credit to Martin Luther for creating the modern day xmas tree.

Father of Lutheranism if i am not mistaken.





Veeerrry religious I would say

The key word there is "legend."

[Hurst2112]

The key word there is "legend."

hehe. key word in yours is druid.

[flere-imsaho]

I always thought Yule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule) was a heck of a lot cooler. :)

[cody8200]

right on...

Jesus wasn't born on Christmas. He wasn't born in December.


Christmas is the symbolic day of his birth. The actual day doesnt matter. Its the symbol of his birth that is important.

[Hurst2112]

Christmas is the symbolic day of his birth. The actual day doesnt matter. Its the symbol of his birth that is important.

That's a very Catholic'esque thing to say. The day DOES matter, if only to be more knowledgable on the subject.

Im not arguing with you. Yet, I would venture to say that a true Christian outlook would be that one should celebrate his birth everyday. Too much emphasis is put on the holidays surrounding his birth, death and resurrection. People tend to focus only on these dates.

that's my 2 scents... ;)

[Ben E Lou]

Georgia keeps the 'Christmas' in Perdue tree


By JAMES SALZER (http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/1205/mailto:[email protected])
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 12/03/05For a few minutes Friday, it looked as if Gov. Sonny Perdue had gone all politically correct about Christmas.

His staff e-mailed a news release to reporters announcing that Perdue — a favorite of the Christian Coalition who speaks often about his Christian faith — and his wife, Mary, would light Georgia's "holiday tree" at the Governor's Mansion on Sunday.

Dan McLagan, the governor's communications director, followed 30 minutes later with a second e-mail, correcting the headline to announce that the Perdues will light a "Christmas tree," not a "holiday tree."

"Due to a politically correct staff brain-freeze, the [governor's] press office erroneously used the word 'holiday tree' to describe the coniferous flora that the governor and first lady will light this Sunday," McLagan wrote. "It is, in fact, a Christmas tree. The staffer responsible can be contacted at P.O. Box 432, Anchorage, Alaska, 99501."

Cities and schools across the country have grappled with the use of the word "Christmas" and the display of Nativity scenes, Christmas trees and other symbols as the nation becomes more religiously and culturally diverse.

Critics have accused the American Civil Liberties Union and others of trying to ban Christmas from public spaces and discourse.

McLagan had to laugh about what happened Friday. Playing the role of the understanding boss, he wouldn't name the staffer who wrote the "holiday" missive and said that no punishment had been meted out.

Perdue was out of town and didn't know about the "error."

"When the governor gets back from California and finds out what one of my staffers did, I am going to be in big trouble," McLagan said.

[GrantDawg]

I knew you would post that in this thread.

[GrantDawg]

That's a very Catholic'esque thing to say. The day DOES matter, if only to be more knowledgable on the subject.

Im not arguing with you. Yet, I would venture to say that a true Christian outlook would be that one should celebrate his birth everyday. Too much emphasis is put on the holidays surrounding his birth, death and resurrection. People tend to focus only on these dates.

that's my 2 scents... ;)
But your take is right on.

[Ben E Lou]

I knew you would post that in this thread.That's why you told me in the first place, wasn't it? ;)

[Tekneek]

Who cares what they call it? It is a Pagan celebration dressed up like a Christian one, IMO. However, to say it has nothing to do with religion is ignorant. It has seemingly been intertwined with religion all along, just not the Christian one.

[AlexB]

This happened over here a few years ago: Birmingham banned the term 'Christmas' one year, saying that it should be 'Winterval' so as not to offend other religions.

This year a council (somewhere in the south?) have said their lights are not 'Christmas lights' but 'Winter lights' for the same reason.

This really winds me up that people can be so dumb tbh: how can calling a holiday by its name affect other religions? And even if it does, Christianity is the official religion of the UK, so who cares if it celebrating 'our' religion in our country offends others. (I put 'our' in parentheses as I am not personally religious, but the principle is PC gone mad).

There is no public outcry from Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, or any other religions about the use of the term Christmas, no complaints that Christmas/Easter celebrations cause offence, it is woolly jumper wearing lefty liberals (always WASPs - this is never becasue of influences of any particular section of society) thinking they are 'doing the right thing'.

These people are idiots - if their logic runs as it does, surely they think they should ban Diwali (which is one of the best times of the year in Leicester where I grew up), Ramadan, etc for exactly the same reasons? (not that this is the right thing to do, but in effect they are being discriminatory against Christians at the moment).

Ironically I consider myself a liberal type person, and believe people should be able to do/say/believe what they want, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. However the world seems to be scared of the latter part of this ideology, and forget about the former.

In the words of the sadly departed Dave Allen, 'May your God go with you'.

[Tekneek]

And even if it does, Christianity is the official religion of the UK, so who cares if it celebrating 'our' religion in our country offends others. (I put 'our' in parentheses as I am not personally religious, but the principle is PC gone mad).

The UK really has an official religion? I did not see one noted as such in the CIA World Factbook. Can you point me to this on the web? I would love to see it. I did not think any western nation had an official religion.

[DanGarion]

I'm confused. If they don't want Christmas trees, why are they putting out a tree at all? I mean basically they shouldn't be putting up any decorations or anything, that would be the PC thing to do. No Christmas trees, no "holiday" trees, no decorations, no Santa, no waste of government money on anything.

[Tekneek]

I'm confused. If they don't want Christmas trees, why are they putting out a tree at all? I mean basically they shouldn't be putting up any decorations or anything, that would be the PC thing to do. No Christmas trees, no "holiday" trees, no decorations, no Santa, no waste of government money on anything.

Stop making sense. Nobody wants the obvious easy answer to this! :)

Generalization coming up...

The non-religious folks are on the watch for any hint of government endorsement of religion and Christians are always looking to evangelise.

[Ben E Lou]

I'm confused. If they don't want Christmas trees, why are they putting out a tree at all? I mean basically they shouldn't be putting up any decorations or anything, that would be the PC thing to do. No Christmas trees, no "holiday" trees, no decorations, no Santa, no waste of government money on anything.See: SkyDog comment about government offficials wanting to have it both ways.

[DanGarion]

Stop making sense. Nobody wants the obvious easy answer to this! :)

Generalization coming up...

The non-religious folks are on the watch for any hint of government endorsement of religion and Christians are always looking to evangelise.
I'd hate for it to happen like that, but since no one seems to want to accept that Christmas is basically a secular holiday, it seems to be the only real option.

[AlexB]

The UK really has an official religion? I did not see one noted as such in the CIA World Factbook. Can you point me to this on the web? I would love to see it. I did not think any western nation had an official religion.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
'The Church of England is the officially established Christian church in England'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England

Basically England was a Catholic country until Henry VIII wanted a divorce, and so he founded the C of E to allow him to do so...

While Wikipedia is not necessarily the be-all-end-all authority, type 'Church of England official religion' into Google and many more hits will come up.

[Tekneek]

I'd hate for it to happen like that, but since no one seems to want to accept that Christmas is basically a secular holiday, it seems to be the only real option.

Why does the government need to get involved anyway? I don't really see the point. Decorations in a small town are sort of nice, but leave it up to the businesses on little ol' Main Street to get together and decorate their storefronts. The government doesn't have to spring for special lights, trees, and celebrations. If they're desperate to spend that money, cut every taxpayer a check for their share of that money and let them pick up one extra gift for their family.

[DanGarion]

Why does the government need to get involved anyway? I don't really see the point. Decorations in a small town are sort of nice, but leave it up to the businesses on little ol' Main Street to get together and decorate their storefronts. The government doesn't have to spring for special lights, trees, and celebrations. If they're desperate to spend that money, cut every taxpayer a check for their share of that money and let them pick up one extra gift for their family.
How about the decorations for 4th of July, Thanksgiving, etc?

[Tekneek]

How about the decorations for 4th of July, Thanksgiving, etc?

4th of July is Independence Day, which is totally meaningful for the nation and government. I think you can make a strong case for governmental involvement in celebrating the day it claimed its sovereignty (extending all the way down to a local level). Thanksgiving is also tied into the history of the nation and means nothing outside of this country. I feel like you can make exceptions for days that truly are products of the US and are only meaningful here, when it comes to the government being involved in celebration of it. However, if you have to throw them all out, I wouldn't mind...especially if they would give the money budgeted for that back to the taxpayers.

[Dutch]

You know, when Europeans found their religious rights violated they manned up, got in a fucking boat and sailed west.

Last time I looked, China's national religion is Atheism. And they are west. By waterway.

Something to think about.

Merry Christmas. :)

[clintl]

I think calling the tree "the Holiday Tree" is a bit silly, but I'll say this - I'm getting extremely annoyed at certain Christians who are making a big deal about complaining about businesses who greet their customers with "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas." Christians are not entitled to decide how other people celebrate the season, and they're not entitled to decide how other people greet them. The greeting "Happy Holidays" has been a tradition greeting for the season for as long as I can remember, and it makes perfect sense for businesses to be inclusive in the way they treat their customers.

[Raiders Army]

We have a "Hero Tree" lighting coming up next week. LOL. Now I've got that Footloose song going through my head. Y'know: Bonnie Tyler, Holding Out for a Hero.

[albionmoonlight]

I am, by and large, against 'political correctness.' Defining political correctness as the censorship of private speech either by social pressure from other private groups or sometimes official government action. The guy who was fired for using the word niggardly is the prime example of that. Censorship is almost always inauspicious, no matter who is doing the censoring or why.

What I don't like is the idea that people pointing out that the Constitution forbids the government from establishing a religion is painted with the same "P.C." brush.

Someone trying to shame me personally because my use of the word Christmas may offend non-Christians? Politically correct censorship with which I do not agree and to which I will not bend.

Someone trying to prevent the government from placing one religious tradition above others? The protection of a constitutional right which I took an oath to defend.

Very different issues, despite peoples' attempt to misuse language to make them seem like the same thing.

[st.cronin]

I am, by and large, against 'political correctness.' Defining political correctness as the censorship of private speech either by social pressure from other private groups or sometimes official government action. The guy who was fired for using the word niggardly is the prime example of that. Censorship is almost always inauspicious, no matter who is doing the censoring or why.

What I don't like is the idea that people pointing out that the Constitution forbids the government from establishing a religion is painted with the same "P.C." brush.

Someone trying to shame me personally because my use of the word Christmas may offend non-Christians? Politically correct censorship with which I do not agree and to which I will not bend.

Someone trying to prevent the government from placing one religious tradition above others? The protection of a constitutional right which I took an oath to defend.

Very different issues, despite peoples' attempt to misuse language to make them seem like the same thing.


...

It is not only proper, it is understandable tht governments and businesses would want to be inclusive in their celebrations.

otoh

How in the world does anybody get offended by a nativity scene, for example??? That mentality is bizarre.

[Tekneek]

...
How in the world does anybody get offended by a nativity scene, for example??? That mentality is bizarre.

A nativity scene (usually capitalized if referring to the birth of Jesus), also called a crib or crèche (meaning "crib" or "manger" in French) generally refers to any depiction of the birth or birthplace of Jesus. In Spain and hispanic countries, this is called Belen (meaning Bethlehem in Spanish). In Argentina it is called pesebre.

I guess the issue is whether or not it is The Nativity Scene, or simply a nativity scene. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how somebody might be offended by The Nativity Scene, but I can understand questioning the offensiveness of a random/unique nativity scene that has nothing at all to do with Christianity.

[st.cronin]

I guess the issue is whether or not it is The Nativity Scene, or simply a nativity scene. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how somebody might be offended by The Nativity Scene, but I can understand questioning the offensiveness of a random/unique nativity scene that has nothing at all to do with Christianity.

No, I disagree. It takes somebody much wiser than me to comprehend how somebody could be offended by THE NATIVITY SCENE. How is this any different than being offended by a Menorah?

[Tekneek]

No, I disagree. It takes somebody much wiser than me to comprehend how somebody could be offended by THE NATIVITY SCENE. How is this any different than being offended by a Menorah?

You cannot comprehend how the presentation of a event only of importance to religious people might be offensive to some people? Are you serious?

As far as a Menorah goes...

A menorah (sometimes capitalized) is a branched candelabrum with seven candle-holders. The menorah was the ancient representation of the Hebrews and is one of the oldest symbols of the Jewish people. It is said to symbolise the burning bush, as seen by Moses.

You don't think someone could be offended by a Menorah? It is *only* of significance to a religious group.

What religious depictions are people allowed to be offended by? None? So, no one should be offended by a sign that simply says "There is no God" as part of the same display, right?

[st.cronin]

You cannot comprehend how the presentation of a event only of importance to religious people might be offensive to some people? Are you serious?

As far as a Menorah goes...



You don't think someone could be offended by a Menorah? It is *only* of significance to a religious group.

Who has ever been offended by a Menorah? Not me. I lived in New York for quite a few years, and there are Menorahs everywhere at this time of year. I never heard a peep. But every Christmas, I see news stories about debates about Nativity scenes. I don't get it.

So, no one should be offended by a sign that simply says "There is no God" as part of the same display, right?

I don't that should be considered offensive, either. Statements of metaphysical belief are of a totally different class than, for example, the barber who puts up a sign saying 'whites only.'

[DanGarion]

Who has ever been offended by a Menorah? Not me. I lived in New York for quite a few years, and there are Menorahs everywhere at this time of year. I never heard a peep. But every Christmas, I see news stories about debates about Nativity scenes. I don't get it.
Probably those overly sensitive ACLU types, because being Jewish is offensive to them... I guess.

[Tekneek]

When it comes to the use of public assets, religious matters should be avoided. That's my opinion. It's a rather sensible way to do things. If people feel strongly about having those displays, they should be able to make arrangements for them on private property and with private funding.

I don't presume to believe I can decide what religions may be found to be offensive and would prefer my government not appear to endorse any of them.

[Rizon]

PC= crap

You can't spell "crap" without "PC".

[sterlingice]

I guess the issue is whether or not it is The Nativity Scene, or simply a nativity scene. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how somebody might be offended by The Nativity Scene, but I can understand questioning the offensiveness of a random/unique nativity scene that has nothing at all to do with Christianity.Ok, this I want to see some elaboration on. What the hell is "a nativity scene" versus "The Nativity Scene"?

"Merry Christmas"
"Happy Holidays"
"Hey, that's a great Nativity on your lawn?"
"Oh, man, you got it all wrong. I need to make a better one next year"
"What do you mean?"
"That's not The Nativity Scene, caps, it's a nativity scene, lower case."
"Huh?"
"That's my friend Bob Johnson. He was in Turkey last year with his wife. She was pregnant and about to deliver but they had non-refundable airplane tickets. Well, they were out in the country side and she went into labor and had to deliver in a manger in a barn with sheep and shepherds around. I just heard about it at the company holiday party so I decided to make a display."

SI

[sterlingice]

"Due to a politically correct staff brain-freeze, the [governor's] press office erroneously used the word 'holiday tree' to describe the coniferous flora that the governor and first lady will light this Sunday," McLagan wrote. "It is, in fact, a Christmas tree. The staffer responsible can be contacted at P.O. Box 432, Anchorage, Alaska, 99501."I swear- I can hear the drawl in that voice, reading it. It's great :D

SI