Linebacker Dilemma - How Do You Use Your LBs?

[QuikSand]

Linebacker Dilemma
(note -- original content here was posted during play of FOF 2004, a ton has changed since this odl thread was live - QS)

In a MP league, I face a real dilemma at the LB position, and thought this test case might serve us well as a way to share how we manage this position generally. And, if the responses here help me make a better decision with what to do with my team and players, all the better.

The team in question is the Chesapeake Chitterlings (http://www.fof-ihof.com/team/teamroster.php?teamid=30) of the IHOF, and I don’t mind anyone who has access to those game files to give thoughts based on the details therein… though I’ll try to give enough background that you won’t need to be familiar with either the team or league to follow along.

The Scenario

I have a competitive, but not dominant team. Without too much belaboring, the team has generally been pretty effective on both offense and defense, and we expect the same both this year and in the years ahead. We are not in a “go for it right now” mentality, nor are we in any sort of rebuilding. So no special weighting need be given to timing considerations.

This year, we used our first draft pick on a player slotted as a SLB. I am pleased with the pick (and people drafting behind me were displeased) and am confident he will work out to be a long term asset. My problem is that I don’t know where to play him… and I would prefer that he get slotted this year, before camp, into the actual position where I expect to play him the most, long term.

So, here’s the scouting report on this guy Lenny, in relevant profile, using some thumbnail numbers:


Run Defense ------------------------------57-85
Play Diagnosis ------------------------------71-99

PR Technique --------------------------------71-99
PR Strength --------------------------------71-99

Primary Coverage -----------23-51


He’s not yet on my roster, so these are the “blue” zones for the relevant ratings – I’m using this as a profile of what I expect him to look like, in time, if not better. He weighs 242 pounds, so I have reason to believe that he ought to switch comfortably among the various LB positions, but will not be able to switch to DE.


So, Lenny joins a team that just lost two veteran linebackers to retirement, making LB a priority for us to begin with – good fit. The main guy who departed was our starter at SLB, primarily, as we used a 4-3 defense for most of the team’s existence. Anticipating a shortage at LB, we recently acquired a solid starting caliber MLB, who nominally joins my two pretty young and pretty good starters who are both technically WLBs but who were probably slotted this year to start at MLB and SLB. So, in short, I have three starting-quality players at LB already, before adding this guy.

(It might complicate the story a bit to note that my next draft pick was another ILB, but for now I’ll leave that as a secondary bit, as I don’t think that guy has the same upside potential as Lenny does)

With the influx of talent at LB, I am now open to (and perhaps even leaning toward) a switch to a 3-4 defensive front, either on a part-time or full-time basis, so that’s an added wrinkle.

The Dilemma

So, what to do with Lenny?

- He looks like he will be a solid run defender, a talent I value highly
- He looks to have very strong pass rushing skills, which seem important
(though I rarely get a whole lot out of my LBs in this respect, it seems)
- He is fairly weak in the pass coverage that we run primarily on this team


So, it seems to me that I have a few options here:

#1 – Leave Lenny as a strong-side LB, give him chances to rush the passer, and as an OLB, he could be slotted as a DE as needed

#2 – Move Lenny to the weak-side, where he will mostly be used as a run stopper

#3 – Move him to either MLB or WILB/SILB to play inside, where he can be a run stopper and stay on the field more than a WLB would


Honestly, I had all but made up my mind that I was going to slot him as a weak-side linebacker, but I have serious reservations about doing so. Specifically, I’d want to use Lenny as a pass rusher, but in FOF, as soon as the defense drops into nickel coverage, the WLB is pulled off the field. Regrettably, it seems that the blitzing percentage applied to the WLB slot gets carried over to the nickel back (probably a CB in my defense), and I have really never had any good results from blitzing cornerbacks very much. So, I don’t see how to use Boyd the way I want to from the WLB slot (good run stopper, fairly frequent blitzer, and comes off the field in obvious passing situations for a better cover man).


In any event… the details of this situation are a little bit complex (and made tougher by the talents of my other guys, who candidly are both pretty good and substantially better in my primary coverage than Boyd), but to me this seems like a decent opportunity to talk about “how do we use our linebackers in FOF?”

The floor is yours…

[Fonzie]

I'd be most inclined to keep Lenny at SLB so that he can be on the field as much as possible. A talent like that needs to be helping on the field as much as possible, and as you noted WLBs sit on the sidelines too much. I would do exactly what you described in option #1.

[albionmoonlight]

Numbers look kind of like Jeffrey Boggs. Pre-LB Blitz Patch, I would have told you to put him at SLB, crank your blitz up to 100, only blitz one guy, and make sure that your SLB blitzes 100% of the time. That always got Boggs lots of tackles and lots of sacks.

Now, I am still trying to figure out how to get blitz numbers from my backers.

I almost never blitz from the WLB spot for the reasons you mention. I generally just put a run stopping LB there on the theory that he will be in on running downs and the nickle guy will come in on passing downs. I don't want either of them to blitz.

I have had some (limited) success blitzing guys from the secondary, so one thing that I would consider if I were you is to line him up at WLB and see if any of your secondary guys is good enough to play nickle and has blitzing ability. As a combo, they may be able to work as WLB blitzers.

I have only ever run a 4-3, so I can't really help you viz a viz how to use him in a 3-4.

Finally, since you have otherwise strong linebackers, I would probably end up using this guy a lot at defensive end. At least on rushing downs, and possible even as a backup with your starters playing time set low (I don't know what your DEs look like).

Also, I've never had a lot of success blitzing up the middle, but maybe this guy is worth trying that with as well. (BTW, I think that the MLB is who comes off during dime defense, but I am not 100% sure--more like 95% sure).

[QuikSand]

Fonzie, I think that may make sense... though the short-term issue I have there is that my two solid starters are actually both better players than Lenny currently projects to be.

One guy (7th year) is currently rated 73/73 by my scout, with ratings of 93 Run D/65 Pass Rush Tech/84 Coverage. He currently patrols at the SLB slot, and has done very well for us there. Second guy (5th year) is rated 69/69 overall, 89 Run D/55 Pass Rush Tech/94 Coverage - and was a standout at MLB last season. So, to use Lenny right away at SLB means giving a superior player short shrift in playing time right away -- slotting either of these two established centerpiece players at WLB takes him off the field too much, I think.

But I need to consider both this year and beyond -- I don't want to be jerking Lenn around from position to position down the road -- I want to slot him now, and be done with it. I am still leaning toward SLB as his permanent slot, but am open to playing him this year at something like SILB (or maybe moving my 7th year guy to that slot).

[QuikSand]

(BTW, I think that the MLB is who comes off during dime defense, but I am not 100% sure--more like 95% sure).

This is correct.

In a 4-3, your WLB comes out in nickel, and the MLB in dime.

In a 3-4, it's your WLB, then your SILB.

[dacman]

1) Put him at WLB and set your nickel usage to max -- he'll only play 1/2 as many passing downs as the SLB.

OR

2) what albionmoonlight said

[stevew]

I'd probably start him at WLB, and make him a backup at one or both of the DE spots, and perhaps even a rush specialist on the strong side. At least that way he will see the field a bit more than the typical WLB.

[MIJB#19]

Interesting timing, QS. ;)

[QuikSand]

I'd probably start him at WLB, and make him a backup at one or both of the DE spots, and perhaps even a rush specialist on the strong side. At least that way he will see the field a bit more than the typical WLB.

That is pretty much what I'm thinking for at least this rookie season -- I'll need to see how developed his various ratings are, but assuming nothing unusual there, I'm thinking I will slot him at WLB as a starter. But I might keep him formally listed as a SLB, and just play him out of position - thinking that his long-term slot might actually be in the full-time SLB role.

*sigh* With that, I'd probably be playing all four of my starting LBs out of position. And doing so without any knowledge at all on how much this hurts us. Ugh.

[albionmoonlight]

*sigh* With that, I'd probably be playing all four of my starting LBs out of position. And doing so without any knowledge at all on how much this hurts us. Ugh.
Having a MLB with whom I am comfortable, I tried to switch recent acquisition Duarte to SLB. The game told me that he would lose a fair amount of his ability and a lot of his potential. So I switched him to WLB instead, and the game said that he would only lose a little experience and none of his ability. And that is what happened.

I will probably play him, however, at SLB this season because I don't want him off the field.

So, the question is . . . how effective will he be at SLB? I've always used my OLBs pretty interchangably. However, the fact that the game was going to let Duarte change to one with no loss of ability but not change to the other without a loss of ability--it makes me wonder.

Of course, Boggs was an ILB when I played him exclusively at SLB and he won DPOY. But he was also able to change to an SLB with almost no loss of ratings. Perhaps he was able to play so well out of position because the game knew that he would be good at that new position.

Perhaps Duarte, though listed as a WLB, will play poorly at SLB because the game knows that he would play poorly there.

Or maybe this has nothing to do with anything.

This is an area where I wish the game would give us feedback. In real life, you could watch practice and know when a guy is over his head.

[Warhammer]

First, work out a trade and ship him off to Telluride, those guys know what to do with LBs!

Second, if you don't want to do that, listen to me here.

Take a look at his pass defense ratings, how do they compare to the other LBs currently on the squad? If they are better than the current LBs than put him in at SLB. If they are not, look at moving Lenny to MLB, etc.

An alternative is the use him as a WLB that blitzes a lot, but crank down your nickel defense setting. This would give you an extra blitzer, but you sacrifice something in pass coverage. But my philosophy is that if you get to the QB before he gets the ball off, you win. It also would help to know what sort of coverage you are running, as that would also dictate how much you could blitz, but as long as you are not running tons of zone you should be ok.

[QuikSand]

It also would help to know what sort of coverage you are running, as that would also dictate how much you could blitz, but as long as you are not running tons of zone you should be ok.

Is this based on your knowledge of FOF, or your knowledge of real football?

[MIJB#19]

QS, the interesting part to me is that Lenny doesn't fit in your pass defense scheme. Lenny looks like a DE, as you pointed out, and I wouldn't play him anywhere else. I've had good success in starting green DEs with a low playing time figure and see them still develop as much as an every down starter. Your luck is Lenny's endurance being high enough to play 400 passing downs. Just start him at DE. If he isn't making pass rush plays after 8 weeks, you know the experiment failed and that you should write Lenny off as a DE project.

Given his zone defense potential, I wouldn't even mind helping you out in getting him a new home. (Okay, that was a joke, but the rest was ment seriously.)

[Warhammer]

Is this based on your knowledge of FOF, or your knowledge of real football?

It is a bit of both. Telluride as you know is pretty good at getting to the QB. They run a M2M and BnR defense. My other MP team runs strictly Zone until you get into the red zone where they go to BnR. That team does not get near the number of sacks even though the front seven is somewhat comparable. Except against teams that go down the field a lot. Then, that team does well, and has even accumulated 10 sacks in a game!

Two reasons why I can account for this. In a zone defense against a short passing team, a zone is opening up when you blitz. Against M2M and BnR, someone is covering that.

When a team is going deep downfield, those zones are covered by the safties or corners so a zone will perform better because they are getting more men rushing the QB. But the M2M or BnR coverage breaks down in this situation because they are isolated for a longer period of time against the WR.

[QuikSand]

It is a bit of both. Telluride as you know is pretty good at getting to the QB. They run a M2M and BnR defense. My other MP team runs strictly Zone until you get into the red zone where they go to BnR. That team does not get near the number of sacks even though the front seven is somewhat comparable. Except against teams that go down the field a lot. Then, that team does well, and has even accumulated 10 sacks in a game!

Two reasons why I can account for this. In a zone defense against a short passing team, a zone is opening up when you blitz. Against M2M and BnR, someone is covering that.

When a team is going deep downfield, those zones are covered by the safties or corners so a zone will perform better because they are getting more men rushing the QB. But the M2M or BnR coverage breaks down in this situation because they are isolated for a longer period of time against the WR.

Once again... I heard some FOF...then just as I started to worry about small sample size... WHOOSH the raging sounds of "real football" knowledge rushed over me. (edit to suggest "just some harmless ribbing" smilie goes here)

I'm generally familiar with the issues you describe (in the latter part of the quoted selection) in real football... but I have yet to see any evidence that they are played out in FOF. I may have missed some testing (and I know some people keep their tests to themselves) but as of yet, I'm unconvinced that the game model real football in this particular way.

It would be an interesting thing to try and model, though.

[Celeval]

Breaking back to the original discussion a bit; I considered Lenny in the first round as well, and I was targeting him initially to play a good bit (backup and possibly come in in for particular situations) at defensive end early. When the pass defense was developed to a useful extent, he would have migrated back to the linebacker position.

[Chubby]

FWIW, I played Duarte at OLB (WLB I believe) all last season and i think for his previous seasons with me too.

[MrBigglesworth]

Play him at SLB and have him be the DE on pass plays. He'll be on the field nearly the whole game, but won't hurt you very much, and will even be an asset, on passing downs.

[stevew]

fwiw, i believe i have a similar player to yours. I drafted MLB Rusty Carpenter in the first round at 10th overall. Since he wasnt the ideal run defender for me at MLB, i made him a SLB. He started the first 6 or so games at SLB but was getting beat badly in pass coverage. With a nice rating in man defense, i do eventually hope he will be my starting star SLB. But about 6 weeks ago i reinserted him into the lineup as starting RDE, and he's played fairly well there.

http://www.zoominternet.net/~stevedubbya/rusty.jpg
http://www.zoominternet.net/~stevedubbya/rusty2.jpg

[cthomer5000]

I'll add some detailed thoughts in a minute after reading the rest of the thread, but I just want to get my initial reaction out there first before even I forget it. After reading just the initial post the guy sounds like an ideal SILB. He's an outstanding pass-rusher but not great in covereage (but probably not terrible either). As SILB you keep him on the field a whole lot, and he'll only come off in the dime package, when you really do want to be focusing on coverage.

edit: further thoughts

I'm not sure you can make a "wrong" move here. Your defensive line is solid enough that I don't see a pressing need to try to jam him in there, I think you'd probably be giving up a decent amount of current skill if you chose to do so. Since I don't think it necessarily matters what you do this year, I would defer to a long-term approach. Taking a look at what you've got and their contract status, and figure out where you're probably going to need him long term.

Also, I know it was excluded from the original discussion, but i think the 2nd LB you took could end up being an outstanding WILB (which is also his current listed position). My guess is he'll be more of a run-stopper than the guy we're talking about now.

Basically, it's a nice problem for you to have. There is a lot of skill there at LB, and ultimately I don't think you can make too bad a decision here.

[cthomer5000]

Also, I've never had a lot of success blitzing up the middle, but maybe this guy is worth trying that with as well. (BTW, I think that the MLB is who comes off during dime defense, but I am not 100% sure--more like 95% sure). You have it right.

3-4
Nickel: WLB comes off the field
Dime: SILB comes off the field

4-3
Nickel: WLB comes off the field
Dime: MLB comes off the field.

edit: oops, I see this has been already addressed. The perils of being late toe the party (for some reason posts in this forum never show as new for me....)

[QuikSand]

Well, I admit that Lenny had a disappointing training camp. I felt pretty secure that a guy with such speed (he ran a 4.35 in the combine, good enough to put him onto the league's Top 20 fastest players, and second fastest guy on my team) would be trending up -- but no dice. So - the crisis here may not be what I thought it might be... if he's not a future stud, then I'm not all that panicked about developing him ideally.

Here's the profile of Lenny's red and green bars:

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/QuikSand/lenny.jpg

And from that (and the similar scaling down of expectations about my other rookie LB), it's fairly clear to me that (1) we don't have the great depth at LB that I thought we might have this year, and (2) Lenny is looking at some rotation duty at DE this year, and no more than a reserve LB role barring injuries.

[Warhammer]

Actually, I agree with Cthomer, he is an ideal SILB.

[cthomer5000]

Actually, I agree with Cthomer, he is an ideal SILB.
I feel much less strong about that now after seeing him unwrapped. It's obvious he's only really suited for 2 positions now. SLB, where he can be used in the DE depth chart as well, or SILB where he's obviously restricted to the LB positions.

[Celeval]

Meh.. yeah, you'd have to have good cover with run defense elsewhere on the linebacking corps.

[Dutch]

After what I saw this last week in IHOF, can you give him a big butt?

[QuikSand]

After what I saw this last week in IHOF, can you give him a big butt?

He can (and will) play at DE, but he cannot move there - not heavy enough. (I think that's what you were asking, I try to keep up)

[Dutch]

Yeah, you got my question.

[stevew]

Just looking through past threads, wondering how this LB turned out.

[Joe]

Just looking through past threads, wondering how this LB turned out.

http://www.fof-ihof.com/player/player.php?playerid=7972

[QuikSand]

Lenny is now likely to be our starting SLB for the balance of this IHOF season -- we have suffered a season-ending (maybe career-ending) injury to our best LB who had been playing in the middle, and a multi-week injury to our SLB starter as well. So, Lenny and his fellow 1st round whimper LB are both going to et starts for the foreseeable future.

[QuikSand]

Lenny has been something of a pleasant surprise for us this season -- starting the last eight games (one at DE, the rest at SLB) and posting a Tk% slightly over 10%. Our defense has been depleted, admittedly, but that's a pretty solid number for a guy who looks suspect against the run.

[QuikSand]

I'm reviving an old thread here, to note that I think I have found the answer to the original question: What do I do with this guy?

The answer: wait until FOF is re-released, and then fixed, and then fixed again, and then fixed again... and eventually the 3-4 defense is going to make a pure pass rusher like this guy pretty useful.

To wit: http://www.fof-ihof.com/player/player.php?playerid=7972

[Dutch]

Well, better late than never, but yes, it's a shame this wasn't ID'd or corrected prior to 6.1a. If only for Lenny's sake.

[MacroGuru]

Yeah, I love pass rushing LB's especially in a 3-4 situation where I can send multiple players blitzing, the dominant pass rushing LB generally racks up the sacks.

[cuervo72]

I'm reviving an old thread here

Heh, two years to the day.

[MIJB#19]

Lenny changed the game? The game changed Lenny.

[QuikSand]

And as all good things must come to an end, so must Lenny's career. He retired after finally getting a title with the Chits in IHOF, here is his final state snapsot:

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/QuikSand/lenny_boyd_carer_stats.jpg

Obviously, he turned into a very productive player once we got him slotted as the full-time pass rushing WLB in a 3-4 defense. This last season he was splitting time, but still played at a very high level in a platoon, and helped our pass rush be the league's best and a key element in our success.

Hats off!

[stevew]

Man, if you drafted him in a FOF2k7 environment, I'd say he would have been at least a 125 sack player, if not more.....



It might just be me in a small sample size, but it seems like every time i get an elite rusher WLB in solo play, the dude dies out after about 5-6 seasons. I've never really had *that* guy that puts up 15 plus sacks for 10+ years. But I feel like I've drafted guys that should have done it.

It may just be that the 35/35 rated rushing studs(90-95+ PR Technique) I get just naturally aren't rated as good players by the game. I wonder if the engine weeds them out sooner than all around, better rated players....

[stevew]

dola-I'd guess the league switched versions in 2016? Or at least got on the right patch.