Brokeback Mountain

[Bubba Wheels]

Biggest example of 'media masterbation' I have ever seen. Cannot pickup a newspaper or magazine or entertainment tv show without seeing more news coverage about this movie than you can about the current Christmas retail numbers. And the thing is, nobody cares about this movie what-so-ever. Talk Soup says the per-screen numbers is about a whole whopping $100,000 per-viewing. Then he says 'good luck in the red states!" Not even drawing crowds in NY or LA.

Biggest case of disconnect between media and audience I have ever seen. Can't help but wonder if only because of the high percentage of gays in Hollywood and Hollywood media coverage that this is being driven so relentlessly. BTW, the last is a valid observation (no different than liberals debating the number of Catholics on the Supreme Court and its possible impact on abortion law in the future).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Can't help but wonder if only because of the high percentage of gays in Hollywood and Hollywood media coverage that this is being driven so relentlessly.

Gee, y'think?

(actually, I believe it's a little deeper than that, but close enough for a Saturday morning)

[cthomer5000]

I guess the high percentage of gorillas in Hollywood and the Hollywood media explains the insane amount of press I'm seeing about King Kong?

[Bubba Wheels]

I guess the high percentage of gorillas in Hollywood and the Hollywood media explains the insane amount of press I'm seeing about King Kong?

No, that would be a another issue: How can Hollywood continue to make alot of money when they have been completely bankrupt of new ideas? I know, lets remake the same movie again every 10yrs. Yeah, thats the ticket!

[JeeberD]

Four words:

Anne Hathaway's bare boobs

That'll make up for the gay cowboys for me...

[cthomer5000]

Four words:

Anne Hathaway's bare boobs

That'll make up for the gay cowboys for me...
I'm all about seeing Brokeback Mountain, but i've also got a PSA for everyone:

Anne Hathaway's bare boobs are also on display numerous times in the movie Havoc that was just released straight-to-DVD (after sitting on the studio shelf for 2 years). It's a decent movie, not great, not bad, but it requires a little patience.

[Airhog]

Biggest case of disconnect between media and audience I have ever seen. Can't help but wonder if only because of the high percentage of gays in Hollywood and Hollywood media coverage that this is being driven so relentlessly. BTW, the last is a valid observation (no different than liberals debating the number of Catholics on the Supreme Court and its possible impact on abortion law in the future).


Lets face it. The only reason you have an issue with this movie is because it shows gay people.

[cthomer5000]

Lets face it. The only reason you have an issue with this movie is because it shows gay people.
Gee, y'think?

[Airhog]

Gee, y'think?


They don't call me captain obvious for nothing

[Cuckoo]

Whether or not Bubba's point is valid is not really the issue, in my opinion. I have heard from people who have no interest in any Hollywood causes say it is a very good movie.

By all indications, it is at the very least a quality film. Combine that with the fact that it's very unique in its presentation of a fairly old storyline, and it is not a surprise to me at all that the movie is getting plenty of press.

[JeeberD]

I'm all about seeing Brokeback Mountain, but i've also got a PSA for everyone:

Anne Hathaway's bare boobs are also on display numerous times in the movie Havoc that was just released straight-to-DVD (after sitting on the studio shelf for 2 years). It's a decent movie, not great, not bad, but it requires a little patience.

Got the video of the pertinent Havoc scenes saved to the computer already. But thanks for the info... :D

[Flasch186]

I havnt seen it but what if its good? could be bad, I dont know....BUT here is the question:

BW - Have you seen the movie yet? If not, than you might be what is defined as ignorant to know if it lives up to the hype or not.

according to Yahoo the cirtics (12 of them:

Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Eleanor Ringel Gillespie "Flawed but groundbreaking -- and beautifully done." more... B
Chicago Sun-Times
Roger Ebert "...(Ang) Lee respects the entire arc of his story, right down to the lonely conclusion." more... A
Chicago Tribune
Michael Phillips "Heath Ledger is a revelation as Ennis." more... A-
E! Online "...director Ang Lee takes gorgeous outside shots and wrangles up the emotion until you weep like a baby." more... A
Entertainment Weekly
Owen Gleiberman "Brokeback Mountain is that rare thing, a big Hollywood weeper with a beautiful ache at its center." more... A
filmcritic.com
David Thomas "...a work of universal substance..." more... A
New York Post
Kyle Smith "This is one of the best serious films about homosexuality ever made, but though it's sad and sobering it's still only a rough draft of a great movie." more... B
New York Times
Stephen Holden "...landmark..." more... A
ReelViews
James Berardinelli "The primary supporting actors deserve equal recognition." more... B
Rolling Stone
Peter Travers "...unmissable and unforgettable..." more... A
San Francisco Chronicle
Mick LaSalle "...pays attention to the nuances of expression, to the thoughts and emotions being articulated between the words and in the pauses." more... A
Seattle Post-Intelligencer
William Arnold "It's so poignant and unthreatening that its crossover appeal to women and straight men should be very strong." more... A-


then approx. 2400 users gave it a B....more than likely not all of them have seen it either BUT I dont need to slap you around with a class on statistics again, do I?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I havnt seen it but what if its good? could be bad, I dont know....BUT here is the question:

Except that isn't really the point.

It could be Ben-Hur, it could be Waterworld, but that really doesn't explain the amount of media hype this movie is getting.

[Bubba Wheels]

Yes, I remember all the good press and great reviews that Passion of the Christ got, not to mention all of Mel Gibson's good press, seeing that particular movie grossed something like $340 million so far at least. And I believe that movie was pretty radical regarding what usually comes out of Hollywood. You said " A quality film telling an old story in a unique way...". Yes, its always about that isn't it?

BTW, first thing I thought of when this movie came out was the cowboy in the Village People. So driving home from Toronto yesterday and lo and behold, talk-show having an interview with 'the original gay cowboy from the Village People." Can't say I stayed tuned to hear it though.

[Flasch186]

the fact that its a unique story, getting critical acclaim, winning nominations left and right doesnt give reason to hype, and a new release?

[Cuckoo]

Biggest example of 'media masterbation' I have ever seen. Cannot pickup a newspaper or magazine or entertainment tv show without seeing more news coverage about this movie than you can about the current Christmas retail numbers. And the thing is, nobody cares about this movie what-so-ever. Talk Soup says the per-screen numbers is about a whole whopping $100,000 per-viewing. Then he says 'good luck in the red states!" Not even drawing crowds in NY or LA.

Biggest case of disconnect between media and audience I have ever seen. Can't help but wonder if only because of the high percentage of gays in Hollywood and Hollywood media coverage that this is being driven so relentlessly. BTW, the last is a valid observation (no different than liberals debating the number of Catholics on the Supreme Court and its possible impact on abortion law in the future).

I have a question for you Bubba. Do you think that moviemakers have no other interest in the creation of films than simply "connecting" with a mass audience?

My personal opinion is they definitely do.

It may very well be true that the quality of the film is being inflated by those who have a personal interest in its subject matter. Honestly, I have no idea. But it certainly wouldn't be the first time that's happened in film history.

It's also equally possible that the film is truly well done, one of the better films of the year. I intend to see it so I can make up my mind.

[GrantDawg]

They don't call me captain obvious for nothing

Change his title, Skydog. Change it now!

[cthomer5000]

Except that isn't really the point.

It could be Ben-Hur, it could be Waterworld, but that really doesn't explain the amount of media hype this movie is getting.
This is what I'm not seeing. I live in New Jersey and work in New York City. I'm hearing 50x more about King Kong than I am about Brokeback Mountain. I've heard equally much about Syriana through my normal media outlets. I'm just not seeing what you guys are claiming is there, but perhaps it's regional. Of course that makes even less sense since the movie is actually showing in New York right now, while it is not being shown yet nation-wide.

[Flasch186]

Yes, I remember all the good press and great reviews that Passion of the Christ got, not to mention all of Mel Gibson's good press, seeing that particular movie grossed something like $340 million so far at least. And I believe that movie was pretty radical regarding what usually comes out of Hollywood. You said " A quality film telling an old story in a unique way...". Yes, its always about that isn't it?

BTW, first thing I thought of when this movie came out was the cowboy in the Village People. So driving home from Toronto yesterday and lo and behold, talk-show having an interview with 'the original gay cowboy from the Village People." Can't say I stayed tuned to hear it though.

I saw Passion and loved it and it got tons of hype. Why do you think you are bashing something you havnt seen? Can you explain it without letting your faith drip into your attack? Considering that youre coming from a place of ignorance Id love to hear it. I can defend the crap out of Passion as a movie since I've seen it I cannot attack or defend a movie I havn't seen and neither can you so why dont you STFU and leave your ridiculous poisened Ideology out of analysis and ONLY use cognitive reasoning.

IOW, you have no idea whether the hype is warranted or not.

Passion was excellent as a film (BTW Im Jewish wherein a lot of the attacks came from Jews, just wanted to point that out), it was well shot, well acted, emotionally effective, brutal, and moving. It was excellent. Your turn. watch Brokeback and then critique it as a movie. Im wiating on the edge of my seat.

[GrantDawg]

By all indications, it is at the very least a quality film. Combine that with the fact that it's very unique in its presentation of a fairly old storyline, and it is not a surprise to me at all that the movie is getting plenty of press.

What's the original story line? I haven't heard.

[Bubba Wheels]

I am afraid, however, that after all the hype about this particular movie regarding cowboys I will never be able to view the title of 'Blazing Saddles' again in quite the same way.

[Easy Mac]

Biggest example of 'media masterbation' I have ever seen. Cannot pickup a newspaper or magazine or entertainment tv show without seeing more news coverage about this movie than you can about the current Christmas retail numbers. And the thing is, nobody cares about this movie what-so-ever. Talk Soup says the per-screen numbers is about a whole whopping $100,000 per-viewing. Then he says 'good luck in the red states!" Not even drawing crowds in NY or LA.

Biggest case of disconnect between media and audience I have ever seen. Can't help but wonder if only because of the high percentage of gays in Hollywood and Hollywood media coverage that this is being driven so relentlessly. BTW, the last is a valid observation (no different than liberals debating the number of Catholics on the Supreme Court and its possible impact on abortion law in the future).Ummm, you realize $100,000 per screen is freaking huge right?

[cthomer5000]

I am afraid, however, that after all the hype about this particular movie regarding cowboys I will never be able to view the title of 'Blazing Saddles' again in quite the same way.
You are one sad motherfucker.

[Cuckoo]

This is what I'm not seeing. I live in New Jersey and work in New York City. I'm hearing 50x more about King Kong than I am about Brokeback Mountain. I've heard equally much about Syriana through my normal media outlets. I'm just not seeing what you guys are claiming is there, but perhaps it's regional. Of course that makes even less sense since the movie is actually showing in New York right now, while it is not being shown yet nation-wide.

A recent article in Entertainment Weekly suggested that the studio is indeed marketing it specifically in the "heartland."

I agree with JIMG and Bubba that the movie is receiving a lot of hype, and I also agree that there are probably a number of people in Hollywood with a personal interest in the subject matter.

The leap I won't take is the suggestion that means it's not a great movie or not worth seeing. The other comment I can't agree with is that the only thing that matters is whether the movie sells a lot of tickets.

[GrantDawg]

I am afraid, however, that after all the hype about this particular movie regarding cowboys I will never be able to view the title of 'Blazing Saddles' again in quite the same way.

Best post by BW ever! Frame it and call it a day.

[Airhog]

(BTW Im Jewish wherein a lot of the attacks came from Jews, just wanted to point that out)

No wonder you get all of the good hollywood roles :D

[Flasch186]

I am afraid, however, that after all the hype about this particular movie regarding cowboys I will never be able to view the title of 'Blazing Saddles' again in quite the same way.

You havnt even seen it!! Why arent you railing about Will & Grace. Perhaps cuz its funny? Do you not think gays existed back then? How bout now? You know gays exist right? So do Nazis? So do Christians...So a movie can be made about one group and be hyped and be good but not another, if it isnt on the Bubba scale. You are so biased. What makes you think anyone would actually listen or consider anything you say other than to be simply poisoned rhetoric?

[GrantDawg]

You are one sad motherfucker.

Oh, come on! That was funny.

[Easy Mac]

You havnt even seen it!! Why arent you railing about Will & Grace. Perhaps cuz its funny? Do you not think gays existed back then? How bout now? You know gays exist right? So do Nazis? So do Christians...So a movie can be made about one group and be hyped and be good but not another, if it isnt on the Bubba scale. You are so biased. What makes you think anyone would actually listen or consider anything you say other than to be simply poisoned rhetoric?you realize will and grace isn't actually funny.

[Cuckoo]

What's the original story line? I haven't heard.

Are you asking the plot of the movie?

It's a tragic romance between two cowboys who meet while watching sheep in the late 60's, I believe. They form a friendship as well as a sexual relationship. Both are trapped in fairly loveless marriages, though, and they have the occasional meeting over the years but are never able to be together. I won't go through the ending or all the details, but that's the general idea.

[Barkeep49]

This is what I'm not seeing. I live in New Jersey and work in New York City. I'm hearing 50x more about King Kong than I am about Brokeback Mountain. I've heard equally much about Syriana through my normal media outlets. I'm just not seeing what you guys are claiming is there, but perhaps it's regional. Of course that makes even less sense since the movie is actually showing in New York right now, while it is not being shown yet nation-wide.
Living in Chicago where it is also being shown I would have to agree that there has been far more Kong publicity, as one would expect, that Brokeback. The real question, however, is Brokeback recieving more publicity than other art films have recieved at this time of the year? It seems to me that some film always grabs the critics attention about this time as an Oscar hopeful, but I don't really have a firm enough recollection to decide one way or another.

That said, I think that Bubba, despite bring this up for his own reasons, does have a good point that there is a pretty big disconnect between the values espoused in this movie and that of most of America.

[cthomer5000]

Ummm, you realize $100,000 per screen is freaking huge right?
He's a moron, so of course not. Brokedback Mountain did 150% more per screen last night than King Kong did.

[Esquared1]

I figured this movie to be more of an expose, given Gunnery Sargent Hartman's belief that "there are only two things that come from Texas."

[Flasch186]

you realize will and grace isn't actually funny.

Will & Grace is halarious....especially the live episode. The wirting is so much better than 30% of the sit coms out there. Joey is awful (just throwin that out there) but Will & Grace is still very funny.

[Cuckoo]

Have to go with Easy Mac here. I have never found Will and Grace funny, and I could never understand the appeal of that show. In fact, I would go so far as to call it irritating.

Edit: There was a recent NBC promo where they were touting all of their great comedies over the years from Friends to Seinfeld to Cosby Show to Cheers. Then pops up Will and Grace, which seemed really out of place to me.

[st.cronin]

Will and Grace is awful - probably the worst popular tv show of my lifetime.

[MJ4H]

I've never even heard of this movie. Until this thread.

[Flasch186]

That said, I think that Bubba, despite bring this up for his own reasons, does have a good point that there is a pretty big disconnect between the values espoused in this movie and that of most of America.

Maybe absolutely true, your point, but thats why its a film and not a documentary. Not every movie is supposed to be a movie based on a true story.

[Easy Mac]

I've seen far more promotion for Syriana than I have for BareBack Mountain, but I've heard better things about the cowboys. Personal preference here, but I have no interest in seeing the movie, I just don't get a kick out of seeing guys kiss. Just a personal thing i have, I know the story may be great, but I don't want to see it. Same thing with Million Dollar Baby. Everyone said it kicks ass, but I just don't like Eastwood or Hillary Swank (my fiancee made me watch it, and I hated it.). I may see it eventually if the misses wants to (she loves Ledger and Gyllenhaal, and I love me some Anne Hathaway), but I doubt it.

[Flasch186]

Will and Grace is awful - probably the worst popular tv show of my lifetime.

Well I'd like to think you are biased as well based on faith BUT if I post a poll and hear differently from a broad spectrum of people (BW pay attention its a statistics thing again) I could deduce that I am in the minority on this.

[Bubba Wheels]

He's a moron, so of course not. Brokedback Mountain did 150% more per screen last night than King Kong did.

Gee, lets see, more people dispersed over a greater number of screens might equal less gross-per-screen while still reaping in much larger profits overall. Regardless, pretty easy to look up the movie box offices grosses.

Have to laugh, though, on how a major motion picture with big stars setting out to be a main-stream movie is now suddenly being described by its advocates as an 'art-house' movie. All in the spin, I guess.

[Barkeep49]

Maybe absolutely true, your point, but thats why its a film and not a documentary. Not every movie is supposed to be a movie based on a true story.
I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that I was saying that as I never reference the idea of fiction vs nonfiction in my post.

[Easy Mac]

Will & Grace is halarious....especially the live episode. The wirting is so much better than 30% of the sit coms out there. Joey is awful (just throwin that out there) but Will & Grace is still very funny.Comparing it to Joey is like comparing the Browns to the Texans. One may be head and shoulders above the other, but they still suck.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow, Bubba and Jon are upset at about a movie about gay people. Will wonders never cease?

Fellas, so long as there are folks like you around

Also, there are plenty of movies about gay people released every year that don't get any media hype at all. Anyone remember "Boat Trip"? Does the gay cowboy angle makes this movie unique? Sure it does. It's taking the American symbol of tough-guy masculinity - cowboys (see, eg, John Wayne and Clint Eastwood) - and giving it a bit of a... twist.

Now, I haven't seen the movie, but by all accounts it is incredibly well-made, which is not surprising given that it Ang Lee is directing it, and very well-acted, which is surprising given Heath Ledger is a lead, but not so surprising given that Jack Gyllenhall is the other.

All that said, so long as their are folks like Bubba and Jon in the world, a film like Brokeback Mountain will continue to get media hype. Keep on keepin' on, fellas...

[Easy Mac]

7Gee, lets see, more people dispersed over a greater number of screens might equal less gross-per-screen while still reaping in much larger profits overall. Regardless, pretty easy to look up the movie box offices grosses.You can't hold the number up as a failure and then say the number doesn't matter when you were completely wrong. And 100,000 per screen is the largest ever for a movie, whether it is in wide release or not. And comparing the # of screens doesn't matter, since Kong was supposed to be a blockbuster. Would it be fair to compare My Big Fat Greek Wedding and Minority Report? I think they made about the same, but most would argue The first was more successful because it started smaller.

[GrantDawg]

I love Will and Grace. Grace is hot. Everyone that says otherwise can bite me.

[Easy Mac]

That said, I think that Bubba, despite bring this up for his own reasons, does have a good point that there is a pretty big disconnect between the values espoused in this movie and that of most of America.
I haven't seen the movie, but from everything I've read its not promoting any values. Its generally just a good love story about people who couldn't be together, but it happens to be two gay guys out west. I'd say the subject is the point of disconnect, not any values promoted by the movie.

[GrantDawg]

7You can't hold the number up as a failure and then say the number doesn't matter when you were completely wrong. And 100,000 per screen is the largest ever for a movie, whether it is in wide release or not. And comparing the # of screens doesn't matter, since Kong was supposed to be a blockbuster. Would it be fair to compare My Big Fat Greek Wedding and Minority Report? I think they made about the same, but most would argue The first was more successful because it started smaller.

The first easily made more profit because it had a fraction of the cost of the second.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The leap I won't take is the suggestion that means it's not a great movie or not worth seeing.

Nor at any point have I argued whether the film has "technical merit" or whatever the appropriate phrase would be. To me, that's largely beside the point. It may or may not be well-written/well-acted/well-directed/ beautifully photographed, don't know & don't care.

Point is, this isn't the only movie that would fit any/all of those descriptions but those received lower levels of "mainstream" hype. And I believe the subject matter plays the biggest difference in that. The hype is meant to drive audiences & the audiences are meant to legitimize the lifestyle being portrayed. That's the agenda in play here, not some noble effort to get people to "see a good movie" or anything so benign.

It is what it is, and it really shouldn't be that big a shock that it's happening.
The aforemention Will & Grace benefitted from some of the sort of thing, just on a slightly lesser scale. But there's more prestige attached to film than sitcoms, so that's not surprising either. I guess what puzzles me still is why, when the Right has an agenda, there's not all that much denial about it but when the Left does it, the denial almost overshadows the agenda itself.

[Easy Mac]

Now, I haven't seen the movie, but by all accounts it is incredibly well-made, which is not surprising given that it Ang Lee is directing it, and very well-acted, which is surprising given Heath Ledger is a lead, but not so surprising given that Jack Gyllenhall is the other.
I'd argue against this. Gyllenhaal has as much range as Chris Kaman. I love Donnie Darko, but its not related to his acting.

[st.cronin]

Well I'd like to think you are biased as well based on faith BUT if I post a poll and hear differently from a broad spectrum of people (BW pay attention its a statistics thing again) I could deduce that I am in the minority on this.

I have nothing whatsoever against gays. I was active in theater groups during high school. I lived in NYC for several years and enjoyed mingling with the queers and the pervs. It's true that I am more prudish than most of my age group, but I don't think I'm biased against anybody.

It's a terrible show because it has terrible actors, terrible writing, and all the jokes have one of two punchlines, either "somebody is gay" or "somebody is desperate for sex." I don't particularly respect the sitcom genre, but I bet I have seen 100 sitcoms that were better than Will and Grace. I don't usually use language like this, but it's success makes me worry for our future.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... who meet while watching sheep

Okay, pardon the pun but ... that's one of the best "straight" lines I've heard in a long time.
:D

[Bubba Wheels]

Wow, Bubba and Jon are upset at about a movie about gay people. Will wonders never cease?

Fellas, so long as there are folks like you around

Also, there are plenty of movies about gay people released every year that don't get any media hype at all. Anyone remember "Boat Trip"? Does the gay cowboy angle makes this movie unique? Sure it does. It's taking the American symbol of tough-guy masculinity - cowboys (see, eg, John Wayne and Clint Eastwood) - and giving it a bit of a... twist.

Now, I haven't seen the movie, but by all accounts it is incredibly well-made, which is not surprising given that it Ang Lee is directing it, and very well-acted, which is surprising given Heath Ledger is a lead, but not so surprising given that Jack Gyllenhall is the other.

All that said, so long as their are folks like Bubba and Jon in the world, a film like Brokeback Mountain will continue to get media hype. Keep on keepin' on, fellas...

ESPN's Playmakers did it better without all the excessive hype and fawning.

[Cuckoo]

Nor at any point have I argued whether the film has "technical merit" or whatever the appropriate phrase would be. To me, that's largely beside the point. It may or may not be well-written/well-acted/well-directed/ beautifully photographed, don't know & don't care.

Point is, this isn't the only movie that would fit any/all of those descriptions but those received lower levels of "mainstream" hype. And I believe the subject matter plays the biggest difference in that. The hype is meant to drive audiences & the audiences are meant to legitimize the lifestyle being portrayed. That's the agenda in play here, not some noble effort to get people to "see a good movie" or anything so benign.

It is what it is, and it really shouldn't be that big a shock that it's happening.
The aforemention Will & Grace benefitted from some of the sort of thing, just on a slightly lesser scale. But there's more prestige attached to film than sitcoms, so that's not surprising either. I guess what puzzles me still is why, when the Right has an agenda, there's not all that much denial about it but when the Left does it, the denial almost overshadows the agenda itself.


I can't really find much here that I disagree with.

My only addendum to the conversation started by Bubba is that while it may be inflated, there is also buzz coming from the fact that it is, by all accounts, a quality movie with good pedigree. It is also unique in its presentation. While that may not account for all of the push by Hollywood and critics, it can't be ignored either.

The other thing I took issue with was his assertion that the only reasons movies are made are to sell. I think films are also about the expression of ideas, popular and not-so-popular.

I think it's kind of a given that those ideas tend to be, more often than not, fairly left-leaning.

[Easy Mac]

You know, I was just thinking the other day, there was no hype for Playmakers.

[Flasch186]

I have nothing whatsoever against gays. I was active in theater groups during high school. I lived in NYC for several years and enjoyed mingling with the queers and the pervs. It's true that I am more prudish than most of my age group, but I don't think I'm biased against anybody.

It's a terrible show because it has terrible actors, terrible writing, and all the jokes have one of two punchlines, either "somebody is gay" or "somebody is desperate for sex." I don't particularly respect the sitcom genre, but I bet I have seen 100 sitcoms that were better than Will and Grace. I don't usually use language like this, but it's success makes me worry for our future.

Its looking more and more like you were right re: the W&G thing and I am wrong. Damn I hate it when Im the only one who thinks a show is good, like 3 wishes. Phooey!!

[st.cronin]

Its looking more and more like you were right re: the W&G thing and I am wrong. Damn I hate it when Im the only one who thinks a show is good, like 3 wishes. Phooey!!

I like 3 wishes. And you should stand behind your convictions: If you like a show or movie, you shouldn't care if other people do.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The other thing I took issue with was his assertion that the only reasons movies are made are to sell.

Hmm ... sidetracking a bit ... I could go along "all are made to sell", but it isn't neccessarily tickets they're most interested in selling. Sometimes its tickets, sometimes it's a viewpoint/agenda ... but 99.9% are "selling" something.

[Buccaneer]

From Roger Freidman's Top 10 movies of 2005 (he's really into the art and movie scene in NYC, esp. Greenwich Village)

8. "Broken Flowers" — Focus Features has done a good job ignoring this brilliant Jim Jarmusch film so they could give us gay cowboys mumbling and tumbling together in "Brokeback Mountain." I do think that Bill Murray's sublime performance in "Broken Flowers" is going to outlast "Bill and Ted's Excellent Romance," and that video viewers are going to wonder why Murray, director Jarmusch, supporting actor Jeffrey Wright and a trio of Murray's ex-flames — in cameo — Sharon Stone, Jessica Lange and Frances Conroy — weren't shown more respect.
It's like other controversal issues: The social message over the movie (Brokeback Mtn) will overshadow any objectiveness because it has to get out there and be promoted.

cthomer: Look where those $100,000 screenies were.

[Flasch186]

I like 3 wishes. And you should stand behind your convictions: If you like a show or movie, you shouldn't care if other people do.

oh, I stand by my convictions, but my presumption was wrong.

[Honolulu_Blue]

That said, I think that Bubba, despite bring this up for his own reasons, does have a good point that there is a pretty big disconnect between the values espoused in this movie and that of most of America.
So? I reckon the majority of movies made espouse values that are a pretty big disconnect between the values espoused in most of America. Ever see Pulp Fiction? Requiem for a Dream? Natural Born Killers? Or any countless other number of controversial films?

It all goes back to hoe shameful it is that a movie about two men in love is considered "a big disconnect between the values of most of America", but movies about gratuitous violence, misogyny, or whatever are right in line with the values of most America.

[Honolulu_Blue]

cthomer: Look where those $100,000 screenies were.
I didn't look, but I would imagine they were in large urban centers, no?

[Honolulu_Blue]

ESPN's Playmakers did it better without all the excessive hype and fawning.
Yeah, there was no excessive hype or fawning about Playmakers. None at all...

[Buccaneer]

I didn't look, but I would imagine they were in large urban centers, no?
In 3 cities specifically: NY, SF and LA.

[Cuckoo]

Hmm ... sidetracking a bit ... I could go along "all are made to sell", but it isn't neccessarily tickets they're most interested in selling. Sometimes its tickets, sometimes it's a viewpoint/agenda ... but 99.9% are "selling" something.


Well... While I like to believe there is still some interest in telling a good story regardless of the agenda, the concept of artistic expression, I do understand the typical "expression" is one of a specific societal viewpoint. Most of the time, I hope the art is more important than the agenda. But then again, I've been called naive before. :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yeah, there was no excessive hype or fawning about Playmakers. None at all...

In the mainstream press? I don't recall any noticeable amount. I think we're (FOFC'ers) were sort of "narrowcasted" any hype it received. Remember, only a small percentage of Americans ever watch ESPN.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'd argue against this. Gyllenhaal has as much range as Chris Kaman. I love Donnie Darko, but its not related to his acting.
Donnie Darko is the only movie I think I have ever seen this guy in, so I'll accept this as true. Just never been impressed with Ledger, who I have seen in far too many films.

[Easy Mac]

From Roger Freidman's Top 10 movies of 2005 (he's really into the art and movie scene in NYC, esp. Greenwich Village)


It's like other controversal issues: The social message over the movie (Brokeback Mtn) will overshadow any objectiveness because it has to get out there and be promoted.

cthomer: Look where those $100,000 screenies were. I saw Broken Flowers... didn't really like it. Felt like movies I've been seeing for a while. I thought Murray was good, but the movie itself didn't bring anything I hadn't seen before.

That's the thing, its all about personal preference when liking a movie. I know plenty of people who didn't like Good Night, Good Luck, but I thought it was great. So a reviewer saying he didn't like 1 movie and another should have gotten more press doesn't mean much.

[st.cronin]

Looking at Bubba's original thesis, I think he may have a point, but I think there's more to it than just 'Hollywood pushing a gay agenda.' First of all, Hollywood is not some monolithic entity like the Elders of Zion. Mel Gibson, Steven Spielberg, and Tim Burton are a fairly diverse trio in terms of values. Secondly, Ang Lee and Heath Ledger are pretty big stars - their names are at least partly responsible for the hype this movie has gotten.

But there is a kernel of truth there - that our moviemakers, producers, actors, etc. are not at all representative of America. Note that I don't necessarily see this as a problem.

[Easy Mac]

In the mainstream press? I don't recall any noticeable amount. I think we're (FOFC'ers) were sort of "narrowcasted" any hype it received. Remember, only a small percentage of Americans ever watch ESPN.99% of the people I know don't read the New York Times, read self-important critics, or most of the other things where movies are promoted. I haven't read anything about Brokeback Mountain in any paper, the only reason it's in EW is because of Gyllenhaal and Ledger (smart casting move, best way to draw an audience), and I've seen 1 commercial for it. Yet I see a Syriana commercial every other break. So I'd say the group that discusses movies here is more savvy than the general public. I'd say if I went up to normal moviegoers 75% wouldn't have heard of this movie.

[Easy Mac]

Donnie Darko is the only movie I think I have ever seen this guy in, so I'll accept this as true. Just never been impressed with Ledger, who I have seen in far too many films.I enjoyed A Knight's Tale for what it was, but I'd agree I've been unimpressed with his acting.

But he did bag Naomi Watts and impregnated Jen from Dawson's Creek, so he gets a pass from me.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Nor at any point have I argued whether the film has "technical merit" or whatever the appropriate phrase would be. To me, that's largely beside the point. It may or may not be well-written/well-acted/well-directed/ beautifully photographed, don't know & don't care.

Point is, this isn't the only movie that would fit any/all of those descriptions but those received lower levels of "mainstream" hype. And I believe the subject matter plays the biggest difference in that. The hype is meant to drive audiences & the audiences are meant to legitimize the lifestyle being portrayed. That's the agenda in play here, not some noble effort to get people to "see a good movie" or anything so benign.

It is what it is, and it really shouldn't be that big a shock that it's happening.
The aforemention Will & Grace benefitted from some of the sort of thing, just on a slightly lesser scale. But there's more prestige attached to film than sitcoms, so that's not surprising either. I guess what puzzles me still is why, when the Right has an agenda, there's not all that much denial about it but when the Left does it, the denial almost overshadows the agenda itself.
There certainly is an agenda in the promotion of this movie, but I disagree that the "technical merit" of this film plays a significant role in that agenda. Like I mentioned early, there are likely dozens of movies about gay men released each year. Where is the hype for those movies?

Brokeback Mountain, however, by all accounts has significant "technical merit", so it then becomes a perfect vehicle for the agenda. The Left sees about gay people that is well crafted and does a good job with the subject matter and therefore it becomes that a good vehicle to say "Hello, America. Here is a well made movie about gay people. It treats their relationship with respect and is a good, accurate serious portrayl of two men in love."

Still, while I dont watch commercials on TV or listen to the radio, I haven't seen where all this hype is coming from. I think certain folks are just pre-disposed to see hype about issues they care deeply about.

[Daimyo]

You guys are really claiming this movie is getting more hype than previous "indies"? Every year a very good, small movie is picked up by the hype machine... you don't remember the hype for Sideways or Supersize Me over the last two years? Do Million Dollar baby, Chicago, and Crouching Tiger count as "indies" too? I haven't seen anything near that level for Brokeback Mountain yet and I live in Chicago in a pretty gay-friendly neighborhood.

[Buccaneer]

I think the hype refers to all of the early award nominations as the movie was just being released.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I think the hype refers to all of the early award nominations as the movie was just being released.
That always happens with movies released in December though.

[Buccaneer]

Yes, but why this particular one when there are so many mixed reviews?

[Buccaneer]

Example, picking up 7 Golden Globes nominations.

[clintl]

I've read one article on the MSNBC web site a couple of weeks ago about Brokeback Mountain. I think I might have seen one in Sacramento Bee that I didn't read.

That's it. No TV commercials (but lots for King Kong and Syriana and The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe). Where's the hype?

What little it's really getting seems to me pretty well-deserved, considering it has a highly regarded director, highly regarded lead actor, and is based on an acclaimed short story by one of the best contemporary writers around, Annie Proulx.

[Daimyo]

Mixed Reviews? (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/brokeback_mountain/)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yes, but why this particular one when there are so many mixed reviews?
Right now, it's at 87% positive at rottentomatoes.com, so I would hardly call those reviews "mixed". I don't recall reading anything that slammed the technical merit of the movie, but rather the subject matter. I don't know if there are any Golden Globes for that.

Studios tend to release "award" quality pictures in December that way they are fresh in the minds of those who nominate fims for awards. How many Golden Globes was The Aviator nominated for? Return of the King?

[Schmidty]

If this movie is that great, it deserves all the accolades it can get.

If it's not great, I hope people aren't afraid to say it's not because of political correctness and fear of being labeled a gay-basher.

[Honolulu_Blue]

What little it's really getting seems to me pretty well-deserved, considering it has a highly regarded director, highly regarded lead actor, and is based on an acclaimed short story by one of the best contemporary writers around, Annie Proulx.
Come on now, no one cares about that stuff, it's only the Left pushing the gay agenda on America!

Like I said earlier, so long as there are people who get horribly bent out of shape at the idea of two men in love, movies/books/tv shows/what have you that center around such a relationship will cause some controversy and, thus, lead to hype.

[Buccaneer]

Mixed Reviews? (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/brokeback_mountain/)
Good Night, Capote, Squid, W&G, Paradise Now, Passenger all received more positive reviews with Harry Potter, P&P, History of Violence receiving about the same amount. I fully expect that once Brokeback gets into wider release, that number will go down as small and medium size cities add their reviews.

[Cuckoo]

...and is based on an acclaimed short story by one of the best contemporary writers around, Annie Proulx.

Do you really think so? I'm not a huge Proulx fan at all, and I've read a lot of her stuff. I think she has had some good stuff and some pretty mediocre stuff. She is certainly acclaimed, but I wouldn't call her one of the best.

But then again, that's a discussion for another thread. The story this is based on is interesting to say the least, but it well-written in my opinion.

[Flasch186]

If this movie is that great, it deserves all the accolades it can get.

If it's not great, I hope people aren't afraid to say it's not because of political correctness and fear of being labeled a gay-basher.

true, let it suck on Film making attributes.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Example, picking up 7 Golden Globes nominations.
I just checked. The Aviator also received 7 Golden Globes nominations. Return of the King had 4. Both those movies were released later in December (if I recall correctly) than Brokeback Mountain.

Also, look at the other Golden Globes nominees this year, there are a ton of small, independent movies that got nominated this year and they don't have anything to do with gay people.

[Easy Mac]

Yes, but why this particular one when there are so many mixed reviews?It has an 87 average score on metacritic and rottentomatoes... that's hardly mixed reviews.

[Honolulu_Blue]

If this movie is that great, it deserves all the accolades it can get.

If it's not great, I hope people aren't afraid to say it's not because of political correctness and fear of being labeled a gay-basher.
I don't think we need to worry about that. Am I the only person who even remembers "Party Boat"? Not that I even saw it, but still...

[kcchief19]

Looks like another classic case of people seeing and hearing only what they want to see hear. Here's a fact -- a search at google.news.com for "Brokeback Mountain" for me just yielded 4,130 results. A search for "King Kong" yielded 7,190 results. The search results at Yahoo News yielded 5,454 to 2,561 in favor of King Kong. And whereas Brokeback Mountain has great reviews, King Kong has thus far posted disappointing box off numbers and almost no critical acclaim.

What I want to know is where all of these complainers were earlier this summer when Cinderella Man opened to absolutely fantastic reviews and the media coverage was everywhere despite the fact that the movie did horrible business and was a box office bomb? Throughout movie history, well-done films almost always receive more media attention than their ultimate box office warrants. Has "Brokeback Mountain" gained more attention due to its subject matter? Certainly, but as pointed out above so did "Passion of the Christ." The whiners can't have it both ways.

I realize facts are useless here, so it's the last you'll hear from me on the subject. Some people only here and believe what they want to hear, and if they were running the place we'd still be teaching our kids the world is flat.

It's a movie. It can't hurt you. No amount of advertising or media coverage of the movie is going to hurt you.

[SFL Cat]

You havnt even seen it!! Why arent you railing about Will & Grace. Perhaps cuz its funny? Do you not think gays existed back then? How bout now? You know gays exist right? So do Nazis? So do Christians...So a movie can be made about one group and be hyped and be good but not another, if it isnt on the Bubba scale. You are so biased. What makes you think anyone would actually listen or consider anything you say other than to be simply poisoned rhetoric?

Quite frankly, I have no interest in watching a romance between gay guys, and I sure as hell wouldn't spend what it costs to get into the theatres these days to see it. Now lesbians on the other hand.....

[John Galt]

It must be that vast gay conspiracy. That's why they overpromote a gay movie every year.

What? You mean they didn't do it last year? Or the year before? Or the year before that?

Maybe when you have a sample size of 1, blaming the so-called gay agenda isn't the answer.

[Raiders Army]

I didn't like The Hulk, but that might've been the subject matter more than the director.

[Buccaneer]

It must be that vast gay conspiracy. That's why they overpromote a gay movie every year.

What? You mean they didn't do it last year? Or the year before? Or the year before that?

Maybe when you have a sample size of 1, blaming the so-called gay agenda isn't the answer.
Except this could be the first widely-released movie of the type with a well-known director and lead, as oppose to some art-house indie film.

Personally, I don't watch romantic dramas of any kind.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Except this could be the first widely-released movie of the type with a well-known director and lead, as oppose to some art-house indie film.

Personally, I don't watch romantic dramas of any kind.
The fact that it is a widely-released movie with a well-known director and lead and based off a well-known short story, as opposed to some art-house indie film could also be the reason it is being promoted. It's hard to promote an art-house indie film without any star power.

Do you think this movie would be being promoted like this if it were some no name director and starred a bunch of no name actors?

[John Galt]

Except this could be the first widely-released movie of the type with a well-known director and lead, as oppose to some art-house indie film.

And maybe, just maybe because it is the "first widely-released move of the type" is the reason it gets some (but not nearly the most, as kcchief pointed out) attention. That seems like a better explanation than some vast gay conspiracy.

[Buccaneer]

No, but it doesn't make the movie automatically better.

[Young Drachma]

Biggest example of 'media masterbation' I have ever seen. Cannot pickup a newspaper or magazine or entertainment tv show without seeing more news coverage about this movie than you can about the current Christmas retail numbers. And the thing is, nobody cares about this movie what-so-ever. Talk Soup says the per-screen numbers is about a whole whopping $100,000 per-viewing. Then he says 'good luck in the red states!" Not even drawing crowds in NY or LA.

Biggest case of disconnect between media and audience I have ever seen. Can't help but wonder if only because of the high percentage of gays in Hollywood and Hollywood media coverage that this is being driven so relentlessly. BTW, the last is a valid observation (no different than liberals debating the number of Catholics on the Supreme Court and its possible impact on abortion law in the future).

They haven't found a movie theatre in Wyoming willing to show it at all. They did a screening in Jackson Hole specifically for a group of folks, but..beyond that. Nada.

[Buccaneer]

JG, question. Do you want this movie to be popular nation-wide?

Again personally, despite me not watching romantic dramas, I would chose to watch this instead of the awful King Kong, if I had a choice between the two.

[Grammaticus]

Its looking more and more like you were right re: the W&G thing and I am wrong. Damn I hate it when Im the only one who thinks a show is good, like 3 wishes. Phooey!!
Pretty much the only people that I know who like Will and Grace are gay people and females. That does not mean there are plenty of exceptions to who like the show. But, based on that subjective observation, I would say the FOFC crowd is not your best group in which to find W&G fans. If you ran the same poll at the Oxygen message boards, you would probably have a different outcome.

[Desnudo]

Except this could be the first widely-released movie of the type with a well-known director and lead, as oppose to some art-house indie film.

Personally, I don't watch romantic dramas of any kind.

Ditto, especially if it's about two guys diddling each other. Say what you like about production quality, etc., but I really have no interest in a story about two guys and their man love. I have no problem with someone being gay, but that doesn't mean I enjoy watching gay sex, implied or explicit.

[Calis]

This is just another independent film about gay cowboys eating pudding.

It's nothing to get worked up about, it's what independent films are.

[Karlifornia]

BubbaWheels will only be happy when the world is devoid of people with different lifestyles/viewpoints/perspectives than him, and that is pretty sad.

[Bubba Wheels]

BubbaWheels will only be happy when the world is devoid of people with different lifestyles/viewpoints/perspectives than him, and that is pretty sad.

This is just what the liberal kool-aid drinker type like yourself would say about a person of my beliefs. But I don't think I have that anywhere in my posts, or that position is even what this thread was originally about.

[cthomer5000]

We know what the thread was about. Maybe you don't, but we do.

[Bubba Wheels]

We know what the thread was about. Maybe you don't, but we do.

Well, I don't deny homosexual activity is pretty disgusting. Never denied it. So if you want to read that into every reference including those about media, be my guest.

I also find it interesting that anyone who does find homosexual activity to be disgusting is automatically considered 'unintelligent.' So I guess the mark of intelligence amongst liberals is to not find it disgusting. Quite the 'scientific' approach they use.

[Easy Mac]

I haven't seen anyone say that. I think the point of view that it is "wrong" is perhaps seen us unsocialized or uncaring, but not unintelligent. I haven't seen anyone say the activity itself isn't disgusting. Hell, as one of the liberals on the board, I even said in an earlier post in this thread that I don't find it appealing in the slightest, I do find the act disgusting. I also find it disgusting that obese people fool around, but just because I don't like to think about it, find it disgusting, or intend to partake in it makes it "wrong".

[Bubba Wheels]

I haven't seen anyone say that. I think the point of view that it is "wrong" is perhaps seen us unsocialized or uncaring, but not unintelligent. I haven't seen anyone say the activity itself isn't disgusting. Hell, as one of the liberals on the board, I even said in an earlier post in this thread that I don't find it appealing in the slightest, I do find the act disgusting. I also find it disgusting that obese people fool around, but just because I don't like to think about it, find it disgusting, or intend to partake in it makes it "wrong".

I disagree. I think alot of conservatives don't have a problem with homosexual activity as long as they don't have to be 'exposed' to it. If you want to make this a general rule regarding all sexual activity (keep it private) then so much the better.

But sex sells, and its used to sell products including movies, and as long as that happens it will be public. And the gay acivists then want to be able to be just as public as the heteros. But since the majority of the populance does think that homosexual behavior is either 1. disgusting 2. wrong or 3. both, then those pushing the behavior need a strategy to overcome this.

That strategy is obviously to attack the intelligence of those who would object to it being public, its almost knee-jerk in its reaction to those opposing it. Words like 'tolerance', and 'enlightenment' are thrown around to accomplish this with those opposed obviously not being either. You see the 'strategy' all the time, and to deny it just makes you look oblivious to it.

[Flasch186]

while the "act" itself I may find disgusting...the choice someone make's to be gay or follow the lifestyle that they were born with, I do not find disgusting. THAT is the dilineation you have to understand. With your views, their choice means that they should be relegated to second class citizenship, mine doesnt EVENTHOUGH we both wouldnt want to see the homosexual act occur.

of course, you could say that it is another one of those devilish conspircies to try to undermine the Christian values we should all be espoused to follow.

[Bubba Wheels]

while the "act" itself I may find disgusting...the choice someone make's to be gay or follow the lifestyle that they were born with, I do not find disgusting. THAT is the dilineation you have to understand. With your views, their choice means that they should be relegated to second class citizenship, mine doesnt EVENTHOUGH we both wouldnt want to see the homosexual act occur.

of course, you could say that it is another one of those devilish conspircies to try to undermine the Christian values we should all be espoused to follow.

It is wrong to influence young people by teaching and showing that homosexual behavior is 'mainstream' and 'acceptable.' Full grown adults are another matter. You say yourself that the behavior is or can be both a 'choice' or 'born with it,' and even conceeding both possibilities (though I think its all choice) to influence the young in that way before they can solidly make up their minds as adults is morally wrong, disgusting and perverse.

It is not 'mainstream' and should never be promoted that way. And if that makes you or someone feel like a 'second-class citizen', too bad.

[timmynausea]

I haven't seen Bubba this worked up since the gay sponge bob thing.

[Bubba Wheels]

I haven't seen Bubba this worked up since the gay spong bob thing.

Yeah, and I heard something pretty funny about Tinky Winky bending over in San Francisco somewheres.

[Desnudo]

So another question would be: how many are planning on seeing this movie with a good buddy?

[Flasch186]

It is wrong to influence young people by teaching and showing that homosexual behavior is 'mainstream' and 'acceptable.' Full grown adults are another matter. You say yourself that the behavior is or can be both a 'choice' or 'born with it,' and even conceeding both possibilities (though I think its all choice) to influence the young in that way before they can solidly make up their minds as adults is morally wrong, disgusting and perverse.

It is not 'mainstream' and should never be promoted that way. And if that makes you or someone feel like a 'second-class citizen', too bad.


Thats ridiculous. Parent your own kids...there are lots of movies and TV shows about serial killers, drugs, gambling, premarital sex, etc. You love that right wing platform about personal responsibility and accountability but now its make sure to control whats on TV in case a kid watches it when the parents aren't looking (or dont care).

[Anthony]

I'm all about seeing Brokeback Mountain, but i've also got a PSA for everyone:

Anne Hathaway's bare boobs are also on display numerous times in the movie Havoc that was just released straight-to-DVD (after sitting on the studio shelf for 2 years). It's a decent movie, not great, not bad, but it requires a little patience.

it's information like this that makes me not completely write you off. thanx. :)

[Pumpy Tudors]

Some of you people are weird.

[Airhog]

It is wrong to influence young people by teaching and showing that homosexual behavior is 'mainstream' and 'acceptable.' Full grown adults are another matter. You say yourself that the behavior is or can be both a 'choice' or 'born with it,' and even conceeding both possibilities (though I think its all choice) to influence the young in that way before they can solidly make up their minds as adults is morally wrong, disgusting and perverse.


So all those gay people that knew from a very young age that something was different with them, were just confused individuals that just needed to be shown the light?

[Easy Mac]

it's information like this that makes me not completely write you off. thanx. :)I thought this was common knowledge and was the reason my Blockbuster had about 25 copies of a straight to DVD movie.

Anne Hathaway is lovely.

[Karlifornia]

I will not raise my children "straight" or "gay" just like I wouldn't raise my children to be a certain religion. I will inform my children of the facts when they ask, or when the times is otherwise right.

There are too many things that are actually worth guiding children on to get caught up worrying about shielding them from homosexuality. Stealing is wrong, hurting other people is wrong, lying is the wrong, etc. Homosexuality is when two people of the same gender sexually stimulate one another. This country was rather puritan when it started, but society moves forward, and forcing your children to stay behind with you because you think you know everything is wrong.

[Crapshoot]

Any world that tells me that "Bubba" is normal and the gay people I know are "disgusting" clearly has problems of its own.

[stevew]

I'll probably catch this movie at some point, as I usualy enjoy non mainstream movies.

But they are promoting this thing as the "Great Gay Hope" and in turn are probably downplaying whatever acting talent and direction that is on display here.

[WVUFAN]

The tell-tale sign of America's "Acceptance" of the gay lifestyle is how well this film does. Hate to tell you, but a great many people, while wanting to remain politically correct, agree with Bubba's opinions. Bubba's just brave enough to express them.

I agree with him. I won't go see it, because I disagree with the lifestyle. Others want to see it, cool, but if this film dies a horrible death, it'd bring a smile to my face.

[st.cronin]

The tell-tale sign of America's "Acceptance" of the gay lifestyle is how well this film does.

I don't know why you would say that. I would say the tell-tale sign of the success of Brokeback Mountain's marketing campaign as well as the percieved quality of the film is how well this film does.

[WVUFAN]

I don't know why you would say that. I would say the tell-tale sign of the success of Brokeback Mountain's marketing campaign as well as the percieved quality of the film is how well this film does.
Normally, I would agree with you on that, but there are certainly button-pushing aspects of a film that will push the film's bottom line, regardless of the quality of the movie. Again, speaking from the perspective of a mainly conservative area (West Virginia), people are not gonna see the words "Ang Lee" or "Oscar worthy". They'll see the words "gay cowboy" and stay away. In droves.

[timmynausea]

Wouldn't it be funny if gay people came on here and talked about how the box office numbers of a movie would prove or disprove America's acceptance of the heterosexual lifestyle? I guess we've already learned that America is pro both the 40 year old Virgin lifestyle and the Wedding Crasher lifestyle.

[Bad-example]

Sad, but there are closed-minded people that will attack this movie as "wrong" even though they have never seen it and have no real clue of its quality and what messages it might send. I will watch it when it comes to cable and make up my own mind about it.

[Airhog]

Sad, but there are closed-minded people that will attack this movie as "wrong" even though they have never seen it and have no real clue of its quality and what messages it might send. I will watch it when it comes to cable and make up my own mind about it.


If you wait for it on cable you will miss all the great love scenes

[MrBigglesworth]

I live in PA, I have yet to see a single commercial for or preview of Brokeback Mountain, nor have I seen anyone associated with the movie appear on any of the shows I watch.

No, that would be a another issue: How can Hollywood continue to make alot of money when they have been completely bankrupt of new ideas?
Yes, I remember all the good press and great reviews that Passion of the Christ got, not to mention all of Mel Gibson's good press, seeing that particular movie grossed something like $340 million so far at least.
Sweet irony.

[Flasch186]

Normally, I would agree with you on that, but there are certainly button-pushing aspects of a film that will push the film's bottom line, regardless of the quality of the movie. Again, speaking from the perspective of a mainly conservative area (West Virginia), people are not gonna see the words "Ang Lee" or "Oscar worthy". They'll see the words "gay cowboy" and stay away. In droves.


Thats horsecrap in that it is contradictory to the premise of the thread. That it is being pushed as some big indie flick, so if its succesful (which it is looking like it will be money wise) its cuz of the huge unwarranted push (convenient) but if it fails it is symoblic of America's true feelings...so you get to play both convenient sides of the coin.

Ill reiterate that there are tons of movies and television and media that is stuff you wouldnt want your kids to grow up to be or emulate, serial killers, molesters, gamblers, thieves, etc. If a Movie is succesful that is about a serial killer then is that being supported or stepped upon by the general populace? I paid money to see Passion of the Christ, not to become a Christian but to see a film. I hope that most people can seperate the two...but what am I thinking...

[Flasch186]

Wouldn't it be funny if gay people came on here and talked about how the box office numbers of a movie would prove or disprove America's acceptance of the heterosexual lifestyle? I guess we've already learned that America is pro both the 40 year old Virgin lifestyle and the Wedding Crasher lifestyle.

GREAT POINT!!

but those that are closed minded and cannot change their thought...just in this thread alone I have changed my perspective that MOST everyone thinks Will & Grace is funny. My asssumption is wrong and I learned, evolved you might say....good luck with enlightening others to even the possibility that they might be wrong or ignorant.

[WVUFAN]

Thats horsecrap in that it is contradictory to the premise of the thread. That it is being pushed as some big indie flick, so if its succesful (which it is looking like it will be money wise) its cuz of the huge unwarranted push (convenient) but if it fails it is symoblic of America's true feelings...so you get to play both convenient sides of the coin.I've not heard the word "independant" or indie anywhere in relation to this movie (this is in stark contract to last year's Indie favorite, Sideways, which you heard the word every 2 seconds). This film is being pushed as a gay love story. As "enlightened" as you may like people to be, a great many people, quite a bit in the conservative areas of the country, just do not agree with the lifestyle, and are less than interested in watching a love story about them.

You can call it "close minded" as Flasch186 did, that's your option. I call it expressing a dislike for a particular lifestyle, and not having a desire to see this lifestyle celebrated.

Someone made a passing comparison from this to Passion of the Christ, so let's compare. Passion was TRULY an independent film (it was made with no financial backing from a studio AT ALL, while Brokeback Mountain had one behind it). Passion made well over 300 million. Brokeback won't make a quarter of that. Tells you where the general populace mindset is.


Ill reiterate that there are tons of movies and television and media that is stuff you wouldnt want your kids to grow up to be or emulate, serial killers, molesters, gamblers, thieves, etc. If a Movie is succesful that is about a serial killer then is that being supported or stepped upon by the general populace? I paid money to see Passion of the Christ, not to become a Christian but to see a film. I hope that most people can seperate the two...but what am I thinking...People can watch Freddy or Jason and have a suspension of disbelief, and enjoy a good scare. It's far enough from reality that people can do that, just like people can watch Star Wars without believing there's such a thing as a Jedi. Brokeback Mountain doesn't have that clear line where you can suspend your disbelief. If you're asking people to watch a film and ignore the gay storyline thread -- people aren't gonna do that. Again, many can TOLERATE the gay lifestyle, but it doesn't mean we have to like it, and certainly it doesn't mean we have to go see a movie about it.

[MrBigglesworth]

People can watch Freddy or Jason and have a suspension of disbelief, and enjoy a good scare. It's far enough from reality that people can do that, just like people can watch Star Wars without believing there's such a thing as a Jedi. Brokeback Mountain doesn't have that clear line where you can suspend your disbelief.
Did you like Goodfellas?

[Crapshoot]

Someone made a passing comparison from this to Passion of the Christ, so let's compare. Passion was TRULY an independent film (it was made with no financial backing from a studio AT ALL, while Brokeback Mountain had one behind it). Passion made well over 300 million. Brokeback won't make a quarter of that. Tells you where the general populace mindset is.



The general populace thinks Dan Brown is a good writer, believes American Idol is quality entertainment, and thought Brittany Spears had musical talent. Citing the general populace as proof of anything other than a proof of PT Barnum's famous line seems rather pointless.

[WVUFAN]

Did you like Goodfellas?
Yup. I find gangsters kinda an interesting topic, hense I will go see movies about them. I have absolutely no interest in a gay cowboy movie. Again, I repeat people will not see anything other than the words "gay cowboy" or "gay love scene", and they will stay away.

[WVUFAN]

The general populace thinks Dan Brown is a good writer, believes American Idol is quality entertainment, and thought Brittany Spears had musical talent. Citing the general populace as proof of anything other than a proof of PT Barnum's famous line seems rather pointless.
I think Dan Brown is a good writer.
I haven't a problem with American Idol. Kelly Clarkson's got a good voice.
Brittany Spears is popular.

When, the Da Vinci Code sells millions of titles, and millions of people enjoyed the book, and you don't -- which one is wrong? True, quality is subjective, but when it comes to movies, it's the benchmark. Popular movies are remembered regardless of "quality", unpopular one are forgotten to all but a small minority.

Example: I personally thought the Lord of the Rings trilogy to be extremely boring. I'm in the minority, and I accept that I'm probably wrong in my assessment.

[MizzouRah]

Pretty much the only people that I know who like Will and Grace are gay people and females. That does not mean there are plenty of exceptions to who like the show. But, based on that subjective observation, I would say the FOFC crowd is not your best group in which to find W&G fans. If you ran the same poll at the Oxygen message boards, you would probably have a different outcome.
Agreed, my wife laughs when watching it while I walk by and and say, "How do you find this show funny?". The show, imo is horrible.

[ThunderingHERD]

Biggest example of 'media masterbation' I have ever seen. Cannot pickup a newspaper or magazine or entertainment tv show without seeing more news coverage about this movie than you can about the current Christmas retail numbers. And the thing is, nobody cares about this movie what-so-ever. Talk Soup says the per-screen numbers is about a whole whopping $100,000 per-viewing. Then he says 'good luck in the red states!" Not even drawing crowds in NY or LA.

Biggest case of disconnect between media and audience I have ever seen. Can't help but wonder if only because of the high percentage of gays in Hollywood and Hollywood media coverage that this is being driven so relentlessly. BTW, the last is a valid observation (no different than liberals debating the number of Catholics on the Supreme Court and its possible impact on abortion law in the future).

It happens all the time that art house films with provocative subject matters get more press than box office. That this one features risky choices by two young male stars and is directed by an A-list talent only makes the story more interesting, and the coverage more predictable. Despite what your stupidity may lead you to assume, much of the coverage is actually a product of people like yourself, who would love nothing more than to work themselves up into a tizzy over those faggots in Hollywood pushing their faggot agendas down our throats with that faggot cowboy movie.

Perhaps you should be asking why you noticed this one and not the others. Biggest case of disconnect between perceived over-coverage and actual coverage that I have ever seen.

[clintl]

Well, one thing Bubba did accomplish is getting three times as much coverage for Brokeback Mountain on FOFC as King Kong is getting so far. That's pretty good promotional results.

[Flasch186]

I've not heard the word "independant" or indie anywhere in relation to this movie (this is in stark contract to last year's Indie favorite, Sideways, which you heard the word every 2 seconds). This film is being pushed as a gay love story. As "enlightened" as you may like people to be, a great many people, quite a bit in the conservative areas of the country, just do not agree with the lifestyle, and are less than interested in watching a love story about them.

You can call it "close minded" as Flasch186 did, that's your option. I call it expressing a dislike for a particular lifestyle, and not having a desire to see this lifestyle celebrated.

Someone made a passing comparison from this to Passion of the Christ, so let's compare. Passion was TRULY an independent film (it was made with no financial backing from a studio AT ALL, while Brokeback Mountain had one behind it). Passion made well over 300 million. Brokeback won't make a quarter of that. Tells you where the general populace mindset is.

People can watch Freddy or Jason and have a suspension of disbelief, and enjoy a good scare. It's far enough from reality that people can do that, just like people can watch Star Wars without believing there's such a thing as a Jedi. Brokeback Mountain doesn't have that clear line where you can suspend your disbelief. If you're asking people to watch a film and ignore the gay storyline thread -- people aren't gonna do that. Again, many can TOLERATE the gay lifestyle, but it doesn't mean we have to like it, and certainly it doesn't mean we have to go see a movie about it.


Your side cannot have it both ways. My side believes "it DOES take a village to raise a child", that it is ALL of our responsibility to look out for one another. The right doesnt. They believe in Personal accountability, raising of your own children, etc. Which is fine.....but now, all of a sudden, you dont agree with a lifestyle, AND anything media - like regarding that is an affront to all mankind and should be wiped clean.

I have NO problem at all with your abstaining from seeing the movie or any movie of that kind for whatever reasons you want BUT I do NOT believe that the success or failure of that movie says anything about the populace of our country. I saw Passion, it was succesful (monetarily as well as cinematically IMO) but that does not mean that our country WANTS to be 100% episcapalian, or Christian for that matter.

It is a movie, it is a suspension of belief, its a Time period piece and just like something in the future or sci-fi does not have to be based on a true story. If we followed that logic we would only have true stories, documentaries, or sci-fi movies.

On a broader scale, much like the majority of the people (not all) on this board, everyone IS a fan of your faith, and doesnt want you or BW to give it up but they also dont want you forceing it on others, especially in regards to government and cencorship.

So which is it, personal accountability, raise your own children, etc. or cendorship, "it takes a village...", societal responsibility for everyone, etc.? The slippery slope comes up on you quick. Playing both sides of the coin, when each is convenient simply doesnt work with anyone who has a memory or some sort of reasoning as they see it, they call it out, and they expose it.

Look, everyone is OK with yours and BW's feelings but if its succesful monetarily, (profitable) do you actually think that that means people want to live a homosexual lifestyle? no, but it means theyre open minded enough to be able to draw the line between, like you said fantasy and reality...its that suspension of belief that you need to have a grip on...lest you be poisoned.

[Flasch186]

I think Dan Brown is a good writer.
I haven't a problem with American Idol. Kelly Clarkson's got a good voice.
Brittany Spears is popular.

When, the Da Vinci Code sells millions of titles, and millions of people enjoyed the book, and you don't -- which one is wrong? True, quality is subjective, but when it comes to movies, it's the benchmark. Popular movies are remembered regardless of "quality", unpopular one are forgotten to all but a small minority.

Example: I personally thought the Lord of the Rings trilogy to be extremely boring. I'm in the minority, and I accept that I'm probably wrong in my assessment.


IMO, you should have a bigger problem with Brittany Spears and the like than anything talked about thus far. She is a cancer that poisons your youth....but raise your own damn kids and dont let them buy the album, right?

[Esquared1]

So another question would be: how many are planning on seeing this movie with a good buddy?

Normally, two guys should leave one seat between them at a movie. With this one, would you leave two seats, or would you go ahead and sit next to each other?

[Easy Mac]

on the lap

[Raiders Army]

If you were married and the guy you were seeing the movie with was married, would you take off your rings?

[duckman]

If you were married and the guy you were seeing the movie with was married, would you take off your rings?
:D

[sterlingice]

while the "act" itself I may find disgusting...the choice someone make's to be gay or follow the lifestyle that they were born with, I do not find disgusting. THAT is the dilineation you have to understand. With your views, their choice means that they should be relegated to second class citizenship, mine doesnt EVENTHOUGH we both wouldnt want to see the homosexual act occur.

of course, you could say that it is another one of those devilish conspircies to try to undermine the Christian values we should all be espoused to follow.As if you don't have your hands full as it is with this debate, here's another counter point that isn't just "I h8 teh gay" ;)

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=985239&postcount=76

SI

[Flasch186]

I think that not wanting to see Sex on screen or any issue on screen is a person's prerogative. That is a valid argument but to start saying it effects America, the kids, the kids, and if it doesnt make money it means Americans' hate gays, and gays are sinners.....is a ridiculous slippery slope to try to start.

[Desnudo]

Normally, two guys should leave one seat between them at a movie. With this one, would you leave two seats, or would you go ahead and sit next to each other?

Only if the middle armrest was declared off-limits.

[Craptacular]

Biggest example of 'media masterbation' I have ever seen. Cannot pickup a newspaper or magazine or entertainment tv show without seeing more news coverage about this movie than you can about the current Christmas retail numbers.
I'd never heard of this movie until I clicked on this thread.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'd never heard of this movie until I clicked on this thread.
I hadn't heard too much about it either... Makes you wonder what kind of newspapers and magazines Bubba Wheels subscribes too... http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/wink.gif

[CamEdwards]

I can't be troubled to read all three pages of this thread, but I just wanted to say "If you only see one gay cowboy movie this year..." because it amuses me.

[timmynausea]

It's weird how you can go to any messageboard on the internet and find a thread about Brokeback Mountain where the majority of the comments are by people who have no intention of seeing it but are somehow threatened by it.

[Karlifornia]

You know, this movie is pretty much doing it's job, regardless of how much money it makes. It's opening up a dialogue between opposing viewpoints, and whether or not either side changes their opinion, at least it keeps the lines of communication open, which breeds hope for the future.

[CamEdwards]

You know, this movie is pretty much doing it's job, regardless of how much money it makes. It's opening up a dialogue between opposing viewpoints, and whether or not either side changes their opinion, at least it keeps the lines of communication open, which breeds hope for the future.

That's true. Hopefully one day those who liked Anne Hathaway's bare breasts can find common ground with those who did not.

[Desnudo]

And those who like to watch movies where men play hide-the-salami with other men can find common ground with those who do not.

[CamEdwards]

And those who like to watch movies where men play hide-the-salami with other men can find common ground with those who do not.

Well, that's just crazy talk.

[Karlifornia]

That's true. Hopefully one day those who liked Anne Hathaway's bare breasts can find common ground with those who did not.



Well, anyone who didn't enjoy Anne Hathaway's bare breasts is probably a commie towel-headed camel-jockey faggot.

[Flasch186]

You know, this movie is pretty much doing it's job, regardless of how much money it makes. It's opening up a dialogue between opposing viewpoints, and whether or not either side changes their opinion, at least it keeps the lines of communication open, which breeds hope for the future.

Thats not the movie's job...the movie's job is to make money for the studio, or at least break even while building reputation to help future movies. For the people making the movie, ie. director and actors and crew, unless the dollar for them was bottom line (paycheck) the job is to fulfill award dreams or get future jobs. Thats it. Movies like 9/11 want to open dialogue, not this, IMO.

[Subby]

If I ever see a gay cowboy in real life I swear to god I will run him over with my vespa scooter.

[Young Drachma]

The Times does a story on some gay cowboys, in talking about this movie. You should go hunt them out.

[Joe Canadian]

It is wrong to influence young people by teaching and showing that homosexual behavior is 'mainstream' and 'acceptable.' Full grown adults are another matter. You say yourself that the behavior is or can be both a 'choice' or 'born with it,' and even conceeding both possibilities (though I think its all choice) to influence the young in that way before they can solidly make up their minds as adults is morally wrong, disgusting and perverse.

It is not 'mainstream' and should never be promoted that way. And if that makes you or someone feel like a 'second-class citizen', too bad.

Dude you're right... those damn Hollywood people brainwashed me into being straight!!!!

[JeffNights]

The movie to me is appaling and just disgusting.

[ThunderingHERD]

So what's the lowdown on Anne Hathaway's tits in this movie? Like, how many seconds are we talking about? What's the lighting like? Standing up, lying down? Are they on display with sexual overtones or just incidentally?

[dixieflatline]

I haven't seen this movie and I don't know if I will but I have to say I have a lot of respect for Ang Lee. Here is the list of movies he has directed: http://imdb.com/name/nm0000487/. That's a pretty impressive list if you ask me. Also, a very wide range of movies from sense and sensibility, to crouching tiger, to the hulk. I've seen many interviews with him and I don't think he really cares all that much how well this does at the oscars or even how many people go see it. This is a man that goes out and makes the movie that he wants to make and isn't affraid to experiment. I have a lot of respect for that. For any of you that like his body of work and haven't seen eat drink man woman I'd recommend that. It might only be in subtitles but it is worth it I think.

[Young Drachma]

So what's the lowdown on Anne Hathaway's tits in this movie? Like, how many seconds are we talking about? What's the lighting like? Standing up, lying down? Are they on display with sexual overtones or just incidentally?

Anne Hathaway, the only reason watching those Princess Diaries movies with the ex-gf were worthwhile.

[Grammaticus]

For any of you that like his body of work and haven't seen eat drink man woman I'd recommend that. It might only be in subtitles but it is worth it I think.
Can you give us the one paragraph overview? What is "eat, drink, man, woman" about?

[Flasch186]

Anne Hathaway, the only reason watching those Princess Diaries movies with the ex-gf were worthwhile.

she's furry.

[Subby]

I haven't seen this movie and I don't know if I will but I have to say I have a lot of respect for Ang Lee. Here is the list of movies he has directed: http://imdb.com/name/nm0000487/. That's a pretty impressive list if you ask me. Also, a very wide range of movies from sense and sensibility, to crouching tiger, to the hulk. I've seen many interviews with him and I don't think he really cares all that much how well this does at the oscars or even how many people go see it. This is a man that goes out and makes the movie that he wants to make and isn't affraid to experiment. I have a lot of respect for that. For any of you that like his body of work and haven't seen eat drink man woman I'd recommend that. It might only be in subtitles but it is worth it I think. Once again, dixieflatline hits one out of the park...

The Wedding Banquet was pretty good too...of course...it had The Gays in it, but they are everywhere these days.

[SFL Cat]

No way I feel threatened by this film. I think despite all the "critical acclaim" and talk of "Oscar-worthiness" because of the film's tackling of a "controversial issue," it will probably tank at the box office. While I think what goes on behind closed doors is a matter of conscience between consenting partners, the thought of watching gay cowboys trade spit on the big screen makes my skin crawl. If that makes me unintelligent or close-minded, so be it.

[jeff061]

I think it's when you start wanting it to fail because it's about two cowboys trading spit that you cross the line. That's different than just not wanting to see it.

[SFL Cat]

I will not raise my children "straight" or "gay" just like I wouldn't raise my children to be a certain religion. I will inform my children of the facts when they ask, or when the times is otherwise right.

There are too many things that are actually worth guiding children on to get caught up worrying about shielding them from homosexuality. Stealing is wrong, hurting other people is wrong, lying is the wrong, etc. Homosexuality is when two people of the same gender sexually stimulate one another. This country was rather puritan when it started, but society moves forward, and forcing your children to stay behind with you because you think you know everything is wrong.

Then why bother even being a parent?

Part of being a parent is passing the values you hold on to your children. Whether they find these values valid is something they will decide for themselves as they grow up, but to say you want them to remain a blank slate is just stupid. Someone WILL write on that slate, whether it is you as a parent or someone else. Personally, I have raised my children straight, I have exposed them to my religion - and what it teaches about right and wrong. You say you'll teach your children about not stealing. A lot of people think stealing is okay, especially if you can "stick it to the man" (i.e., Robin Hood). Hurting other people is wrong? So while you tell your kids homosexuality is acceptable because it is simply two people of the same gender sexually stimulating one another, you're going to tell them S&M is bad....I thought it was simply two people hurting each other for sexual stimulation? Is such an expression any less valid? What about drugs? I think it would be safe to assume that most people here have at least experimented in the past. Does that mean you bring home a joint one day and let your kids go to town, just because you know they'll do it anyway? Same with sex. Do you tell your daughter to invite her boyfriend over to do the deed in her bedroom so you can make sure they at least engage in safe sex? After all, she'll probably do it with him anyway since you are denying yourself the moral authority to tell her it is a poor decision to make.

Frankly, I think your comments are a prime example of what is wrong with parenting these days.

[dixieflatline]

Can you give us the one paragraph overview? What is "eat, drink, man, woman" about?

Set in china about a gourmet chef and his three daughters. The chef has lost his sense of smell and forced to retire and his wife has died some time ago. His daughters are grown up and all single. The movie revolves around their persuit of love and interactions with each other. Wour better half will really like it though it isn't a true chich flick. If this story line sounds familiar you have probably seen the remake tortilla soup http://imdb.com/title/tt0255653/ which is set in mexico.

Thanks subby for the kind comments. I have been looking for the wedding banquet off and on but I haven't been able to find it at the local rental places.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Then why bother even being a parent?

Part of being a parent is passing the values you hold on to your children. Whether they find these values valid is something they will decide for themselves as they grow up, but to say you want them to remain a blank slate is just stupid. Someone WILL write on that slate, whether it is you as a parent or someone else. Personally, I have raised my children straight, I have exposed them to my religion - and what it teaches about right and wrong. You say you'll teach your children about not stealing. A lot of people think stealing is okay, especially if you can "stick it to the man" (i.e., Robin Hood). Hurting other people is wrong? So while you tell your kids homosexuality is acceptable because it is simply two people of the same gender sexually stimulating one another, you're going to tell them S&M is bad....I thought it was simply two people hurting each other for sexual stimulation? Is such an expression any less valid? What about drugs? I think it would be safe to assume that most people here have at least experimented in the past. Does that mean you bring home a joint one day and let your kids go to town, just because you know they'll do it anyway? Same with sex. Do you tell your daughter to invite her boyfriend over to do the deed in her bedroom so you can make sure they at least engage in safe sex? After all, she'll probably do it with him anyway since you are denying yourself the moral authority to tell her it is a poor decision to make.

Frankly, I think your comments are a prime example of what is wrong with parenting these days.
How exactly does one raise their kids straight? Is that just telling your kids homosexuality is wrong and you'll go to hell for it? That gays are evil? What does it entail exactly? If a parent doesn't do something like that are they raising their kids gay?

Also, who in the hell are all these people who are raising their kids to be Robin Hood?

I think there is a difference between teaching moral values (thievin' is bad, stay in school, don't do drugs, don't have sex, etc.) and trying to teach sexual prefence.

I have quite a few gay friends and I don't think any of them were ever "raised gay" (whatever that means) and, many, in fact, come from very religious families and went to Catholic school from K-12. I reckon their parents thought they were "raising their kids straight" (whatever that means) too. So, good luck with that. I just hope (and I have reason to believe) that if your kids do turn out to be gay you accept it, support it, and love 'em for who they are.

RFUS's comments are by no means a prime example of what is wrong with parenting these days. I think he's got the right of it and you just read way too much into what he said.

[timmynausea]

Personally, I'm going to raise my kids Amish. Seems like the best way to keep the tv free from their cartoons and such.

[Subby]

A lot of hinges on your belief system. SFL Cat believes homosexuality is a learned behavior. Others believe it is predetermined (genetic).

If you believe that homosexuality is a) learned and b) a sin, then is it so far-fetched that you would try and teach your child that homosexuality is wrong? And how does one do that? The same way you teach them smoking is wrong, or drinking is wrong, or lying is wrong or premarital sex is wrong. You model the correct behavior and do everything you can to mock/marginalize/discredit what you see as deviant/unacceptable.

Choices are fine within reason...but to think that giving your kids the facts and then letting them choose for themeselves is an over-simplified approach to child-rearing. If that was the way to do it, then we could just replace parents with guidance counselors.

[Subby]

dola

Eventually kids are going to make their own choices though...and those decisions are largely influenced by how you raised them. If you were too heavy-handed and overbearing and controlling, they'll rebel. If you were too interested in being best buddies and self-esteem building, they probably won't give your guidance the proper amount of respect and consideration.

It's a fine line...and I'm not sure whate/where the answer is.

[Honolulu_Blue]

A lot of hinges on your belief system. SFL Cat believes homosexuality is a learned behavior. Others believe it is predetermined (genetic).

If you believe that homosexuality is a) learned and b) a sin, then is it so far-fetched that you would try and teach your child that homosexuality is wrong? And how does one do that? The same way you teach them smoking is wrong, or drinking is wrong, or lying is wrong or premarital sex is wrong. You model the correct behavior and do everything you can to mock/marginalize/discredit what you see as deviant/unacceptable.

Choices are fine within reason...but to think that giving your kids the facts and then letting them choose for themeselves is an over-simplified approach to child-rearing. If that was the way to do it, then we could just replace parents with guidance counselors.
Well said. I agree.

I am pretty firmly in the belief that homosexuality is a) predetermined and b) perfectly fine.

I agree that just giving your kids the facts and then letting them choose for themselves is not only an over-simplified approach to child-rearing, it's pretty much impossible to do. Parents all carry their own baggage and beliefs and they are bound to be expressed. Based on what I said above, I just don't think that sexual preference is really something that can really be taught the way you teach a kid lying is wrong, being a bully is bad, etc., etc.

[Honolulu_Blue]

dola

Eventually kids are going to make their own choices though...and those decisions are largely influenced by how you raised them. If you were too heavy-handed and overbearing and controlling, they'll rebel. If you were too interested in being best buddies and self-esteem building, they probably won't give your guidance the proper amount of respect and consideration.

It's a fine line...and I'm not sure whate/where the answer is.
dola

If you did know what/where the answer is and could pass it along you would be a very, very, very rich man.

[st.cronin]

I think in general parents get too much blame when things go wrong, and too much credit when things go right. Parents and kids are both people who make choices, some foolish, some wise, but with no real idea of what the outcome of those choices will be.

[Drake]

Well, anyone who didn't enjoy Anne Hathaway's bare breasts is probably a commie towel-headed camel-jockey faggot.

Hehe.

[Drake]

Hehe.

I mean:

Heh.

"Hehe" sounds a little too gay for this thread.

[Samdari]

I am pretty firmly in the belief that homosexuality is a) predetermined and

Wow has this been burned into the consciousness with little scientific proof supporting it.

We are all products of both genetics and environment. While I believe that some are almost assuredly more predisposed to homosexuality than others, the idea that we come out stamped as irrevocably one or the other is ludicrous.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow has this been burned into the consciousness with little scientific proof supporting it.

We are all products of both genetics and environment. While I believe that some are almost assuredly more predisposed to homosexuality than others, the idea that we come out stamped as irrevocably one or the other is ludicrous.
While there will always be inter-play between nature (genetics) and nurture (environment), I am more of a nature guy. Off the cuff I say 80/20 or so. I should have qualified what I said. I don't think we come out "stamped as irrevocably one or the other", but I think we do come out with a strong predisposition to one or the other. Like I said, 80/20 or thereabouts.

[Samdari]

While there will always be inter-play between nature (genetics) and nurture (environment), I am more of a nature guy. Off the cuff I say 80/20 or so. I should have qualified what I said. I don't think we come out "stamped as irrevocably one or the other", but I think we do come out with a strong predisposition to one or the other. Like I said, 80/20 or thereabouts.

I don't think its anywhere close to that strong, any more than there is that strong a predeliction for preference of redheads vs blondes, big boobies vs "athletic" bodies, or anything else.

[jeff061]

If it was a choice I'm not sure why one would choose it, given all crap they are forced to deal with.

[Subby]

I don't think its anywhere close to that strong, any more than there is that strong a predeliction for preference of redheads vs blondes, big boobies vs "athletic" bodies, or anything else. Do you think your preference for women is genetically pre-disposed?

[Honolulu_Blue]

I don't think its anywhere close to that strong, any more than there is that strong a predeliction for preference of redheads vs blondes, big boobies vs "athletic" bodies, or anything else.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion on what role genetics play in determining sexual orientation, science has not been able to adequately answer that question, but to compare a person's "preference" for men or women to a guy's predeliction for a certain hair color over another, or big boobies vs. "athletic bodies" is pretty ridiculous.

[Samdari]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion on what role genetics play in determining sexual orientation, science has not been able to adequately answer that question, but to compare a person's "preference" for men or women to a guy's predeliction for a certain hair color over another, or big boobies vs. "athletic bodies" is pretty ridiculous.

Why - they are both preferences as to what people find sexually attractive.

[SFL Cat]

dola

Eventually kids are going to make their own choices though...and those decisions are largely influenced by how you raised them. If you were too heavy-handed and overbearing and controlling, they'll rebel. If you were too interested in being best buddies and self-esteem building, they probably won't give your guidance the proper amount of respect and consideration.

It's a fine line...and I'm not sure whate/where the answer is.

One of the wisest things I've ever seen posted here.
;)

[cuervo72]

I mean:

Heh.

"Hehe" sounds a little too gay for this thread.

Are you implying Beavis and Butthead are gay???

[Raiders Army]

I believe that homosexuality is learned.

I don't think its anywhere close to that strong, any more than there is that strong a predeliction for preference of redheads vs blondes, big boobies vs "athletic" bodies, or anything else.

I wasn't attracted at all to latino women before moving to El Paso from the Northeast. I now am after having lived there for almost eight years. I think that your desires change according to the environment.

[Drake]

Are you implying Beavis and Butthead are gay???

No, because they say "Heh. Heh." That's double masculine.

[sterlingice]

A lot of hinges on your belief system. SFL Cat believes homosexuality is a learned behavior. Others believe it is predetermined (genetic).Much more importantly, is supergayness learned or genetic ;)

SI

[Honolulu_Blue]

Much more importantly, is supergayness learned or genetic ;)

SI
Neither. You need to be bit by a radioactive gay man.

[Drake]

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[JeffNights]

Well America has spoken, Brokeback Mountain made approx, 2.4 million in its opening weekend. Apparently two faggots going at it wasnt as big as a great idea as the studio hoped eh?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well America has spoken, Brokeback Mountain made approx, 2.4 million in its opening weekend. Apparently two faggots going at it wasnt as big as a great idea as the studio hoped eh?
Guess again, prick.

Brokeback' Wrangles Strong Numbers in Expansion
by Brandon Gray (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/authors/?id=1&p=.htm)
December 19, 2005



In limited release, Brokeback Mountain (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=brokebackmountain.htm) saw another stampede of moviegoers in its second weekend, while there was no springtime for The Producers (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=producers.htm) in its debut.

Focus Features' cowboy love story lassoed $2.5 million from 69 locations, averaging a potent $36,354 per site, raising the total to $3.5 million in 10 days.

Last weekend, Brokeback Mountain trumpeted a $109,485 average at five bustling theaters in Los Angeles, New York City and San Francisco. It's natural for a picture's average to drop significantly as it adds smaller markets.

"The danger with distributing a movie like this is if you get ahead of it, you lose it," said Jack Foley, Focus' president of distribution. "We'll do what we have to do to meet the business capabilities and the demand. I'd love to see this movie in 2,000 theaters. I have no limits to how wide I want it to go."

Foley said that the expansion will be more aggressive than previously planned, with around 275 theaters set for Jan. 6 and about 400 for Jan. 13. The original intent was to be in 300 venues by the end of January.

<table align="left" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td><script type="text/javascript"><!-- google_ad_client = "pub-8532812718066478"; google_ad_width = 300; google_ad_height = 250; google_ad_format = "300x250_as"; google_ad_channel =""; //--></script> <script type=\"text/javascript\" src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/show_ads.js"> </script><iframe name=\"google_ads_frame\" src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/ads?client=ca-pub-8532812718066478&dt=1135044288690&lmt=1135044284&prev_fmts=120x240_as&format=300x250_as&output=html&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boxofficemojo.com%2Fnews%2F%3Fid%3D1968%26p%3D.htm&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boxofficemojo.com%2F&u_h=768&u_w=1024&u_ah=740&u_aw=1024&u_cd=16&u_tz=-300&u_his=50&u_java=true&u_nplug=19&u_nmime=60" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" vspace="0" hspace="0" allowtransparency="true" frameborder="0" height="250" scrolling="no" width="300">&lt;img&gt;</iframe> </td></tr></tbody></table>Among Brokeback Mountain's encouraging numbers, Foley noted two theaters in conservative markets that Focus used as an experiment for the picture's crossover appeal: the AMC Yorktown 18 near Chicago and the Cinemark Legacy 24 in Plano, Texas—"one of the biggest grossing theaters in the nation for The Passion of the Christ (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=passionofthechrist.htm)," explained Foley. Brokeback Mountain ranked No. 2 and No. 3 in the complexes, respectively. "[The movie] is playing to the smart set as well as the boomer set, the senior set and the gay community," Foley said.

[Karlifornia]

Guess again, prick.

Brokeback' Wrangles Strong Numbers in Expansion
by Brandon Gray (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/authors/?id=1&p=.htm)
December 19, 2005



In limited release, Brokeback Mountain (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=brokebackmountain.htm) saw another stampede of moviegoers in its second weekend, while there was no springtime for The Producers (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=producers.htm) in its debut.

Focus Features' cowboy love story lassoed $2.5 million from 69 locations, averaging a potent $36,354 per site, raising the total to $3.5 million in 10 days.

Last weekend, Brokeback Mountain trumpeted a $109,485 average at five bustling theaters in Los Angeles, New York City and San Francisco. It's natural for a picture's average to drop significantly as it adds smaller markets.

"The danger with distributing a movie like this is if you get ahead of it, you lose it," said Jack Foley, Focus' president of distribution. "We'll do what we have to do to meet the business capabilities and the demand. I'd love to see this movie in 2,000 theaters. I have no limits to how wide I want it to go."

Foley said that the expansion will be more aggressive than previously planned, with around 275 theaters set for Jan. 6 and about 400 for Jan. 13. The original intent was to be in 300 venues by the end of January.

<table align="left" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td><script type="text/javascript"><!-- google_ad_client = "pub-8532812718066478"; google_ad_width = 300; google_ad_height = 250; google_ad_format = "300x250_as"; google_ad_channel =""; //--></script> <script type=\"text/javascript\" src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/show_ads.js"> </script><iframe name=\"google_ads_frame\" src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/ads?client=ca-pub-8532812718066478&dt=1135044288690&lmt=1135044284&prev_fmts=120x240_as&format=300x250_as&output=html&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boxofficemojo.com%2Fnews%2F%3Fid%3D1968%26p%3D.htm&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boxofficemojo.com%2F&u_h=768&u_w=1024&u_ah=740&u_aw=1024&u_cd=16&u_tz=-300&u_his=50&u_java=true&u_nplug=19&u_nmime=60" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" vspace="0" hspace="0" allowtransparency="true" frameborder="0" height="250" scrolling="no" width="300">&lt;img&gt;</iframe> </td></tr></tbody></table>Among Brokeback Mountain's encouraging numbers, Foley noted two theaters in conservative markets that Focus used as an experiment for the picture's crossover appeal: the AMC Yorktown 18 near Chicago and the Cinemark Legacy 24 in Plano, Texas—"one of the biggest grossing theaters in the nation for The Passion of the Christ (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=passionofthechrist.htm)," explained Foley. Brokeback Mountain ranked No. 2 and No. 3 in the complexes, respectively. "[The movie] is playing to the smart set as well as the boomer set, the senior set and the gay community," Foley said.

Haha...eat that, JeffNights

[JeffNights]

Oh Yes, you are so right. This news has just ruined my life. :rolleyes:

[Daimyo]

So you guys who think homosexuality is learned beleive that if you were raised by a gay couple or exposed to gay movies, etc at a young age you'd be gay too?

[Flasch186]

Oh Yes, you are so right. This news has just ruined my life. :rolleyes:

hey, you threw it out there. Now that you've been proven wrong, thus far (although its early) you disown your statement. Look, its finiancial success is not reflective of societies views on homosexuality, EITHER WAY.

[st.cronin]

By the way ...

Which one is gayer, a Wyoming Cowboy or a Dallas Cowboy?

[Flasch186]

I dont know why, but Im feeling a banning or boxing coming out of this thread suddenly. anyone think so?

[Subby]

Well America has spoken, Brokeback Mountain made approx, 2.4 million in its opening weekend. Apparently two faggots going at it wasnt as big as a great idea as the studio hoped eh? Thank you for reminding me that blatantly mindless hatred is alive and well in the world.

Good to see that working out for you.

[cthomer5000]

Well America has spoken, Brokeback Mountain made approx, 2.4 million in its opening weekend. Apparently two faggots going at it wasnt as big as a great idea as the studio hoped eh?
It's only in limited release and made by far the most money per screen of any movie this weekend.

[mauchow]

It's only in limited release and made by far the most money per screen of any movie this weekend.
Yeah, really. He must've done a lot of research to come up with that. Genius.

Next week I imagine it will still have a tough time going up against Narnia, Kong, Dick and Jane, Producers, even with 1500 theatres. It'll still do well though.. I'd say 8-10 mill.

[Desnudo]

While there will always be inter-play between nature (genetics) and nurture (environment), I am more of a nature guy. Off the cuff I say 80/20 or so. I should have qualified what I said. I don't think we come out "stamped as irrevocably one or the other", but I think we do come out with a strong predisposition to one or the other. Like I said, 80/20 or thereabouts.

I would hope the instinct to reproduce would be genetic and is a survival trait. Otherwise, why would we bother? It's probably a hell of a lot easier to find a rest stop than it is to talk a woman into bed.

[JeffNights]

Thank you for reminding me that blatantly mindless hatred is alive and well in the world.

Good to see that working out for you.



Oh, so I express an opinion and its now mindless hatred?

Listen no problem, I heard on the radio ad that the movie opened this weekend, and then saw the box office top ten. Now, I do apologize for not really being all into the movie hardcore to do research on the subject.

[Flasch186]

Oh, so I express an opinion and its now mindless hatred?

Listen no problem, I heard on the radio ad that the movie opened this weekend, and then saw the box office top ten. Now, I do apologize for not really being all into the movie hardcore to do research on the subject.

I think your statement wasnt opinion, you stated that it was a failure and the facts, so far, dont bear that out...so thats what got killed. your assinine opinion is yours to be proud of.

[JeffNights]

I think your statement wasnt opinion, you stated that it was a failure and the facts, so far, dont bear that out...so thats what got killed. your assinine opinion is yours to be proud of.


My opinion is that I disagree with homosexuality, and its assinine? Well hey, at least I do have plenty of company.

[Desnudo]

My opinion is that I disagree with homosexuality, and its assinine? Well hey, at least I do have plenty of company.

Has anyone ever mentioned that your user name would make an excellent porn name?

[JeffNights]

Has anyone ever mentioned that your user name would make an excellent porn name?

Not yet....But i'm always listening.

[MrBigglesworth]

Not yet....But i'm always listening.
Your username would make an excellent porn name.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I would hope the instinct to reproduce would be genetic and is a survival trait. Otherwise, why would we bother? It's probably a hell of a lot easier to find a rest stop than it is to talk a woman into bed.
I totally agree, which is another reason why being gay (having a sexual preference for someone of the same sex) is so much different than having a preference for small tits or large. At the very basic level homosexuality is going against the genetic instinct to reproduce which is powerful a biological force as there is.

[Axxon]

Oh, so I express an opinion and its now mindless hatred?

Listen no problem, I heard on the radio ad that the movie opened this weekend, and then saw the box office top ten. Now, I do apologize for not really being all into the movie hardcore to do research on the subject.

Well, if the opinion is mindless hatred then...yeah.

You even admit that you didn't put any thought into it but simply stated it with absolutely no research so that would qualify as mindless right? The opinion forced the reaction not any thought about it. It was knee jerk as you so noted.

Then the actual quoted "Apparently two faggots going at it wasnt as big as a great idea as the studio hoped eh?" doesn't sound like a neutral observation. It oozes hatred whether it was your intention or not.

So, I'd say mindless hatred fits the post pretty well.

[mauchow]

So, I'd say mindless hatred fits the post pretty well.
:exhaggeration: Nooooo... :D I say we ignore the guy.

[Joe Canadian]

My opinion is that I disagree with homosexuality, and its assinine? Well hey, at least I do have plenty of company.

No, your opinion is "mindless hatred." There's alot of people on this board that hold the opinion that homosexuality is wrong... they don't make statements like yours.

[Axxon]

I totally agree, which is another reason why being gay (having a sexual preference for someone of the same sex) is so much different than having a preference for small tits or large. At the very basic level homosexuality is going against the genetic instinct to reproduce which is powerful a biological force as there is.

Homosexuality has been seen in other species though. They don't have the ability to think but merely act instinctively. It happens.

Since animals can't conceive the concept of homosexuality how can their homosexuality be learned behavior? Who was the first of their species to learn it, how did they learn it and how do they teach it to others? I don't get it.

Now, maybe like some have said, homosexuality is not an all or nothing choice but rather a scale. This sounds about right and if it's the case and you have both tendencies then indeed you must make a choice which preference you follow but again, I don't think the choice is to be gay or not but rather whether to practice a preference or not. Wanting to influence that choice in people you care about then makes sense though I personally don't give a rip enough to actually make the effort with anyone I know.

I don't think we can simply say though that procreation is a survival trait and that homosexuality isn't. Survival of a species takes into account many factors and overpopulation can kill a species too. Homosexuality always kinda seemed to me to be population control and as we keep crowding the planet things that control population like earthquakes, wars, homosexuality etc all serve the purpose of controlling our population are good things but of these mentioned, I'd think homosexuality is the most innocuous.

On an individual level though it isn't that easy. Each individual wants to procreate and spread his legacy to future generations and if your child is homosexual then it ain't happening and this is troubling since that's the individual survival drive. That's why I can understand where some of the harsh reactions come from.

I don't think the overall drive is necessarily hate, it's fear ( which IMHO most hatred comes from but that's another issue altogether ) and fear creates some strong reactions.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts on the issue.

[timmynausea]

Homosexuality has been seen in other species though. They don't have the ability to think but merely act instinctively. It happens.

Since animals can't conceive the concept of homosexuality how can their homosexuality be learned behavior? Who was the first of their species to learn it, how did they learn it and how do they teach it to others? I don't get it.


I can't speak for all animals, but I'm pretty sure my cats are getting it from watching Christopher Lowell.

[Axxon]

I can't speak for all animals, but I'm pretty sure my cats are getting it from watching Christopher Lowell.

Your cat's are gay?

OH THE HUMANITY!!! Wait, not that exactly.... anyway, how does it feel to fail as a parent? ;)

:D

[timmynausea]

Your cat's are gay?

OH THE HUMANITY!!! Wait, not that exactly.... anyway, how does it feel to fail as a parent? ;)

:D

It was weird at first, but before I knew it I was making sassy comments during Project Runway right along with them.

[PilotMan]

Couple of thoughts:

1) How many movies about lesbians have come out and why didn't they get critical acclaim?

2) Simple soultion to this whole thing. If you have no interest in the plot of the movie, don't go see it.

Now you can stop worring about it, and go back to what you were doing.

[sterlingice]

By the way ...

Which one is gayer, a Wyoming Cowboy or a Dallas Cowboy?http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper247/stills/98061r5n.jpg OR http://www.atlanticpremiumbrands.com/troy2.jpg

(This might be my stupidest post ever but I couldn't help myself. It's Troy Aikman... with a dumb look on his face... holding a sausage... and looking very happy- there's just no contest *snicker* oh, and don't let Jeeber see this one)

SI

[Raiders Army]

I totally agree, which is another reason why being gay (having a sexual preference for someone of the same sex) is so much different than having a preference for small tits or large. At the very basic level homosexuality is going against the genetic instinct to reproduce which is powerful a biological force as there is.
Is it the genetic instinct to reproduce or the genetic instinct to get your rocks off?

Seriously, I think it's the latter as opposed to the former. From what I understand, both heterosexuals and homosexuals both masturbate. That has nothing to do with reproducing (unless you count practice, heh heh).

[Honolulu_Blue]

Is it the genetic instinct to reproduce or the genetic instinct to get your rocks off?

Seriously, I think it's the latter as opposed to the former. From what I understand, both heterosexuals and homosexuals both masturbate. That has nothing to do with reproducing (unless you count practice, heh heh).
It's reproduction. I don't think those salmon swim all the upstream only to die of exhaustion just for a circle jerk.

[Honolulu_Blue]

For those of you obsessed with the box office performance of this movie...

'Brokeback' Breaks Records
http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/01/11/99s.jpg Far more surprising to box-office watchers than the tame debut of King Kong (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0360717/) over the weekend was the performance of Brokeback Mountain (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/), which packed the 69 theaters in 21 cities that it played in. In such cities as Toronto, New York, and Los Angeles, the take was more than $70,000 at each theater. Nationally, it averaged a sensational $34,194 per theater, which Daily Variety said was a record for any film released on more than 50 screens (except for those released in IMAX theaters, where ticket prices are substantially higher). Generally described as a gay cowboy romance, the film reportedly played well in some smaller test markets. Today's (Monday) Los Angeles Times observed that the film fared well in the "closely watched" city of Plano, TX. Jack Foley, Focus Films' distribution chief, told the Times that its debut there "was a revelation about the accessibility of this movie. ... This is not gay-dependent. Attendance at those theaters indicates the film has the attention of suburban moviegoers."

[flere-imsaho]

Is it the genetic instinct to reproduce or the genetic instinct to get your rocks off?

I believe from the standpoint of natural selection, the idea is that the latter exists to guarantee the former.

[revrew]

Your username would make an excellent porn name.

And this line comes to us from....MrBigglesworth.

[Subby]

Couple of thoughts:
1) How many movies about lesbians have come out and why didn't they get critical acclaim? Bound received a lot of acclaim when it came out. As did Mulholland Falls.

edit: make that Mulholland Drive

[Flasch186]

Bound was better than average and I hate joe Pantoliano (The TV SERIES KISS O DEATH)

[PilotMan]

Well guys I have a dilemma. I really have no desire to see this movie. None at all. Just not something that I really want to see. However, I was talking to my wife about the movie. She had never heard of it, and I told her that it was a story about gay cowboys and that it had Heath Ledger playing one of the parts. Her reply caught me a bit off guard. She said, " I don't know, I might get pretty hot watching Heath Ledger make out with another guy."

We both had a good laugh and I began to wonder if maybe I should go see it afterall. Would this be enough to get you to see a movie that you really didn't want to see?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well guys I have a dilemma. I really have no desire to see this movie. None at all. Just not something that I really want to see. However, I was talking to my wife about the movie. She had never heard of it, and I told her that it was a story about gay cowboys and that it had Heath Ledger playing one of the parts. Her reply caught me a bit off guard. She said, " I don't know, I might get pretty hot watching Heath Ledger make out with another guy."

We both had a good laugh and I began to wonder if maybe I should go see it afterall. Would this be enough to get you to see a movie that you really didn't want to see?
If you don't want to see it, don't. Give her a ticket, let her go see Brokeback Mountain and you go see King Kong or Syriana or the Chonic(WHAT!?)cles of Narnia or whatever. The plus side is you get to see a movie you want and come out to meet your horny wife. The possible is risk, however, is that she does get pretty hot watching Heath Ledger make out with another guy and all of a sudden she's suggesting you invite another guy into the bedroom to, you know, spice things up. Now, if you're down with that, more power to you, if not... you have been warned.

[Flasch186]

Where's Bubba? HE disappeared when he started seeing that the numbers wouldnt bear out his ridiculous theory (which I think is inapplicable) regardless...what he going to feel like when this movie turns a profit and continues to get nominsated for awards? Does that mean America wants to be gay? So ridiculous.

[Flasch186]

Dola:

More Kudos for BROKEBACK
Wednesday December 21 10:05 AM ET

Ang Lee's controversial love story was named the Best Picture of the Year by both the Las Vegas and Dallas-Fort Worth Film Critics groups.

By Mark Umbach, FilmStew.com

Brokeback Mountain is at it again. The Ang Lee love story topped the list of movies from two more of this year's film critics associations: this time the awards came from Las Vegas and Dallas-Fort Worth. The film was named the Best Picture of the Year by both critics groups on Monday. In addition to Picture of the Year, Lee was named the Director of the Year by both groups.

ADVERTISEMENT
The Vegas critics thought Brokeback's Heath Ledger put in the best performance by an actor this year, while they went for Reese Witherspoon in the Johnny Cash biopic Walk the Line as the Best Actress of the Year. On the supporting side, Vegas lauded Matt Dillon in Crash as the Best Supporting Actor with Frances McDormand earning Best Supporting Actress of the Year for North Country.

March of the Penguins was the choice for Vegas' Best Documentary. There, Kung Fu Hustle was honored as the choice for foreign language film.

Philip Seymour Hoffman played well in Dallas-Fort Worth as he earned Best Actor kudos from the group for playing the title role in Capote. Transamerica's Felicity Huffman picked up the award as the Best Actress of the Year. Dillon was also honored by Dallas-Fort Worth as the Best Supporting Actor for Crash, but the D-FW group went for Capote's Catherine Keener for Best Supporting Actress.

The group picked Murderball as the year's Best Documentary, and Hany Abu-Assad's Paradise Now was the group's Best Foreign Language Feature.

As for screenplays, Brokeback also scored with Dallas-Fort Worth with the group giving Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana the honor for their adaptation. Vegas chose Paul Haggis and his Crash as their honoree for Best Screenplay. When it came to animated feature both critics groups picked Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit as their choice for Best Animated Feature.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Where's Bubba? HE disappeared when he started seeing that the numbers wouldnt bear out his ridiculous theory (which I think is inapplicable) regardless...what he going to feel like when this movie turns a profit and continues to get nominsated for awards? Does that mean America wants to be gay? So ridiculous.
Incredibly ridiculous...

[Desmond]

I wanted to go see this tonight but we don't have any big gay movie theaters here in town.

[WVUFAN]

Where's Bubba? HE disappeared when he started seeing that the numbers wouldnt bear out his ridiculous theory (which I think is inapplicable) regardless...what he going to feel like when this movie turns a profit and continues to get nominsated for awards? Does that mean America wants to be gay? So ridiculous.
No, it just means the uber-liberal Hollywood (who are the only ones who actually VOTE for Oscars) want to continue their agenda, and giving Oscars to undeserving films are a good way to do it.

[Flasch186]

No, it just means the uber-liberal Hollywood (who are the only ones who actually VOTE for Oscars) want to continue their agenda, and giving Oscars to undeserving films are a good way to do it.

oh, so youve seen it? What did you think of it?

and I didnt know the only acclaim that the movie has been getting was from the Oscars...and no where else, no other film festivals, say in Dallas - Fort Worth, most recently.

and your retort doesnt address Bubba's theory.

[WVUFAN]

oh, so youve seen it? What did you think of it?
I thought Jake stole the show. I chose not to look at the love scene, but overall the movie was a little long, very tragic, and not my cup of tea.

Before you ask, I watched it because I try to watch all the Oscar nominated films, and this'll be nominated based on the subject matter. Jake will get a nom for Best Actor.

[Flasch186]

I thought Jake stole the show. I chose not to look at the love scene, but overall the movie was a little long, very tragic, and not my cup of tea.

Before you ask, I watched it because I try to watch all the Oscar nominated films, and this'll be nominated based on the subject matter. Jake will get a nom for Best Actor.


Excellent!! I wouldnt have asked why you watched it...im not asking you why you would go se King Kong. Terrific, so you dont think it should be...oh wait you do think it should be nominated for at least one Oscar? Im glad to see your opinion was based on a film's merit and not some homophobic agenda wherein youre scared that a film about gays might have some effect on children or society moreso than those about serial killers, pedophiles, etc.

[WVUFAN]

Excellent!! I wouldnt have asked why you watched it...im not asking you why you would go se King Kong. Terrific, so you dont think it should be...oh wait you do think it should be nominated for at least one Oscar? Im glad to see your opinion was based on a film's merit and not some homophobic agenda wherein youre scared that a film about gays might have some effect on children or society moreso than those about serial killers, pedophiles, etc.
I never said that gays might have an effect on children. I said that you can't suspend your disbelief about a movie on gays more than you could about a serial killer who can't be killed.

Yes, I think it should be nominated for an Oscar, Jake Guy... however he spells his name should be nominated. Doesn't mean I liked the subject matter. If you're gonna argue against the film, I believe one should watch it first, which is what I did. It's not my cup of tea, but that's not to say it's not a good film, which it is.

My point is that this film would have been nominated for an award regardless of the quality because of the subject matter. The liberal Hollywood, the same one who didn't acknowledge Passion of the Christ at all because of it's subject matter will go ga-ga over this one.

And, for the record, I'm not defending Bubba's post, just glad someone had the balls to step forward with a politically incorrect viewpoint that ALOT of Americans agree with.

[Flasch186]

since youve seen it I can buy all of what you say outside of comparing it to POTC...which I think was excellent but on its own right NOT Oscar worthy, IMO. Youre entitled to your opinion and for once, it is not ignorant considering you saw the movie.

[Joe Canadian]

My point is that this film would have been nominated for an award regardless of the quality because of the subject matter. The liberal Hollywood, the same one who didn't acknowledge Passion of the Christ at all because of it's subject matter will go ga-ga over this one.

Couple of points:

1) Since the film is good, and does deserve the acclaim it is getting... then we'll never actually know if your theory is correct.

2) The Passion was acknowledged by the AMPAS, it got a nomination for best cinematography... if by acknowledged you mean a nomination for best picture, alot of people would say it didn't deserve to be, myself included.

[JW]

Just from a business standpoint, no one should be surprised that the movie has done well in limited release. It has a ready-made audience in big cities. But I don't see how it can do well in wide release because of the subject matter; many people just aren't going to go see the movie. I don't see the audience being much greater than many other indy or 'art' movies. What is its audience, exactly? Who is going to go see it?

Many movies do well in limited release but are never widely released or do poorly when released to the general public. Lately The Great Raid did extremely well in limited release, but it was never put into general release for whatever reasons. At least it is now available on DVD. I just don't see it making much money, but then lots of good movies do poorly and lots of bad movies make tons of money.

[MrBigglesworth]

Just from a business standpoint, no one should be surprised that the movie has done well in limited release. It has a ready-made audience in big cities. But I don't see how it can do well in wide release because of the subject matter; many people just aren't going to go see the movie. I don't see the audience being much greater than many other indy or 'art' movies. What is its audience, exactly? Who is going to go see it?

Many movies do well in limited release but are never widely released or do poorly when released to the general public. Lately The Great Raid did extremely well in limited release, but it was never put into general release for whatever reasons. At least it is now available on DVD. I just don't see it making much money, but then lots of good movies do poorly and lots of bad movies make tons of money.
Wasn't the movie test-released in Plano, TX, some conservative town where POTC had one of its biggest audiences? I think it did pretty well there, coming in third for the weekend. Not a blockbuster, but you know, pretty good for an 'art' movie.

[JW]

Wasn't the movie test-released in Plano, TX, some conservative town where POTC had one of its biggest audiences? I think it did pretty well there, coming in third for the weekend. Not a blockbuster, but you know, pretty good for an 'art' movie.

Plano, TX is a big suburb of DALLAS. Plano is where one of the schools banned red and green decorations from the 'winter holiday' party. When I read that Plano was used as an example of the movie doing well in a conservative area, I got a good laugh out of that. Everyone interested in the film in the Dallas-Ft. Worth metroplex had an opportunity to see it there.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Just from a business standpoint, no one should be surprised that the movie has done well in limited release. It has a ready-made audience in big cities. But I don't see how it can do well in wide release because of the subject matter; many people just aren't going to go see the movie. I don't see the audience being much greater than many other indy or 'art' movies. What is its audience, exactly? Who is going to go see it?

Many movies do well in limited release but are never widely released or do poorly when released to the general public. Lately The Great Raid did extremely well in limited release, but it was never put into general release for whatever reasons. At least it is now available on DVD. I just don't see it making much money, but then lots of good movies do poorly and lots of bad movies make tons of money.
I think this is right. I think the film will do better than most 'art' house flicks, but by no means will be anything close to a blockbuster. No way. Some of the box office returns will be because of "controversial" subject matter (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif), some will be because of the awards buzz (see: WVUFan above), and, maybe, some will be because of, uh, ladies like Pilotman's wife want to see hot guys kissing (I, uh, guess...).

The only reason there has been any discussion of the film's box office performance is because certain people seem to think (ridiculously so) that if this one movie performs poorly at the box office (relative to what, I don't know) it is America condeming the gay lifestyle. Or, as one of more "enlightened" FOFcers said "Well America has spoken, Brokeback Mountain made approx, 2.4 million in its opening weekend. Apparently two faggots going at it wasnt as big as a great idea as the studio hoped eh?"

[John Galt]

Plano, TX is a big suburb of DALLAS. Plano is where one of the schools banned red and green decorations from the 'winter holiday' party. When I read that Plano was used as an example of the movie doing well in a conservative area, I got a good laugh out of that. Everyone interested in the film in the Dallas-Ft. Worth metroplex had an opportunity to see it there.

So, JW has made it clear, he really does only get his information from O'Reilly, World Net Daily, and the like. Really, the War on Christmas story is quite silly and full of lies (including many of the allegations made against Plano).

[John Galt]

dola,

This survey says Plano is the 5th most conservative city in the country based on voting patterns. But don't let the facts get in the way of your argument.

hxxp://www.govpro.com/ASP/ViewArticle.asp?strArticleId=106124

[Desnudo]

'Brokeback Mountain' Tops Globes Favorites - Steers and Queers Category

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060116/ap_en_tv/golden_globes_4;_ylt=AvahFTJ81s2h4UbhQ5pS4S3RXOEE;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Here's a very thoughtful and long (and positive) review of the film. The site www.pajiba.com tends to have very good movie reviews. The reivew deals with the movie as a movie as opposed to focusing solely on any perceived agenda (the gay aspect of the movie). If you have the time and inclination here you go...

http://www.pajiba.com/brokeback-mountain.htm

Brokeback Mountain / Jeremy C. Fox

For a lot of people I know, both gay and straight, Brokeback Mountain is the most anticipated film of the year. Since it was first announced in 2003, it’s generally been known as “that gay cowboy movie”— the film in which, for the first time, two handsome Hollywood stars on the rise would appear in an honest-to-God gay romance, the movie that would give us both the love that dare not speak its name and the sex scenes that Tom Hanks (in Philadelphia) and Colin Farrell (in both A Home at the End of the World (http://www.pajiba.com/home-at-the-end-of-the-world-a.htm) and Alexander) dare not shoot — but calling Brokeback Mountain “that gay cowboy movie” is about as reductive as calling The Godfather “that mafia movie.” It contains aspects of Westerns, gay coming-of-age films, and romantic melodramas, but to apply a facile label would be to underestimate its majestic sweep and its heartening and heartrending depth. It is, at its base, a film about the conflict between what a man is and what he needs.

The movie’s source is the final story in Annie Proulx’s book Close Range: Wyoming Stories, a collection of narratives about difficult lives lived in difficult circumstances by people who mostly don’t expect better. Her characters tend to be of two types: the dreamers who either buy into the romance of the West or can’t wait to escape it and the realists who accept their lot with stoic resilience. Brokeback Mountain has one of each: Jack Twist (Jake Gyllenhaal), starry-eyed and caught up in heroic myths, and Ennis Del Mar (Heath Ledger) a pragmatist who just lives his life the only way he knows how. In outline, the film is simple: Boy gets boy; boy loses boy; boy gets and loses boy over and over again across a lifetime — but there’s a whole world of suffering and grief in all that getting and losing, a permanent sense of loss, of possibilities forever forestalled, happiness perpetually found and then denied, lessons learned too late.

Over the past year or so, Heath Ledger has been involved in a project of rejiggering his career, eschewing the fluffy, audience-pleasing “blond-haired bimbo” roles that made him famous and saying fuck you to the Hollywood establishment, taking flaky character parts or leads that other young actors considered too risky. Here he confirms a suspicion that I developed after seeing Lords of Dogtown (http://www.pajiba.com/lords-of-dogtown.htm) last summer and realizing that he’d played a sizable role without my ever recognizing him — he’s a startlingly gifted actor. He’s playing a character who’s superficially a throwback to the days of John Wayne and Gary Cooper, and he outwardly embodies the quintessential Western hero, squinting his eyes into black creases and murmuring his words through drawn lips, with an accent that’s a little bit Billy Bob Thornton in Sling Blade and a little bit Sam Elliott in everything (though with a lighter timbre). But Ennis doesn’t have it in him to be an icon. Having lost his parents as a child, he was early prepared for a hard life full of disappointments; he’s uncomplaining and compliant, willing to work any shit-job he can get, willing to perform any task unquestioningly.

While Ennis begins the film shambling like a young man whom life has already beaten, Jack struts around like a stud horse, intoxicated with the idea of being a rodeo star and proving his worth to his disapproving father and, by extension, the world. Gyllenhaal’s performance at first seems a little out of place; everyone around him (at this point, essentially Ledger, Randy Quaid, and some sheep) seems entirely at ease and unactorish, but on a second viewing I realized that what I was watching wasn’t Gyllenhaal’s performance — it was Jack’s. Jack is constantly trying to fill the role of Western hero, trying to impress; when we first see him, waiting with Ennis outside Joe Aguirre’s trailer-office, he leans against his truck in an exaggeratedly casual posture, with a “hey, cowboy” leer. The pose seems tentative here, but when he strikes it again later, after he knows he’s won Ennis, it’s triumphant. Unlike Ennis, Jack knows what he wants and is willing to go after it, though he may be only a little better at understanding it.

Ennis and Jack first meet in Signal, Wyoming, in 1963, when they take summer jobs tending sheep on Brokeback Mountain for Joe Aguirre (Quaid). Up on Brokeback, they endure harsh weather, minimal provisions, and predator attacks on the sheep, and gradually, over a period of days and weeks, they reveal themselves to each other and become close. When a night of too much whiskey and too much cold confines them to the same small tent, Jack, who’s clearly had it on his mind for a while, makes his move and they consummate their relationship. Early reports on the film suggested that the physical affection between Ennis and Jack would be downplayed; that perhaps they wouldn’t even kiss onscreen, but this encounter is treated no more or less gingerly than their later encounters with women. There’s no ambiguity about the sex, no discreet fade to black, but neither is it played for titillation or shock value. The connection between Ennis and Jack is powerful, even elemental, and sex is what cements it, a factor it would be dishonest to exclude, but there’s far more to it than that. Ennis gives Jack the tenderness and affection that he craves, offers him the acceptance that his father denied him, but what Jack gives Ennis is understanding; he’s the one person in the world around whom Ennis can drop his guard, though even with Jack it falls only so far. But what this relationship means to them, the powerful hold they have over each other, is something they have little means to express. Like many men, their feelings come out most clearly through aggression. The physical violence between Ennis and Jack is more than just a metaphor for the emotional violence of their connection, it’s the only way these inarticulate men are able to express the strength of their feelings. Though it’s tacitly clear in their every interaction, and though they often speak of the grip “this thing” has on them, throughout the film’s two and a quarter hours neither dares to say the word “love.”

Like many a homosexual encounter, theirs begins in drunkenness, when their inhibitions are lowered, and like many people after their first homosexual encounter, Ennis would like to believe that it’s a fluke, no big deal. “This is a one-shot thing we got goin’ on here. … You know I ain’t queer,” he tells Jack the next afternoon, hoping and perhaps still believing that it’s true. Ennis plays the “masculine” role and tries to preserve his image of himself as a man. He tries to separate sex from emotion, to convince himself that Jack is no more to him than a vehicle for his sexual drive, a partner better suited to the purpose than his hand but only marginally preferable to the sheep. Initially he can’t admit to himself that he’s getting anything more from Jack than a sexual release; when Jack wants to be treated as a lover, an equal, to be kissed and to be held, Ennis is terrified of the implicit suggestion that indeed he is queer, of surrendering his masculine prerogative, of assuming an ambiguous role. But need and regard for Jack overpower his fears and he relents. When the sheep-tending job is ending and they must separate, the full force of Ennis’ emotion comes down on him and he’s wrecked.

Ennis returns home and marries his sweetheart Alma (Michelle Williams), attempting to return to his old life with little success. Separated from Jack, he tries to make a Jack of Alma, wrestling with her in the snow as he’d wrestled with Jack up on Brokeback, too rough for a woman half his size, assigning her the sexual role Jack had assumed eagerly but which she accepts with grim marital devotion. Ennis becomes a caring father and he loves Alma as best he can, but his unfulfilled desires isolate him from his family. As the years pass, he increasingly draws away from them.

Jack moves to Texas for rodeoing but has little success. Though he’s drawn to men and looks for opportunities for hookups, he’s impressed when he meets a pretty young barrel-racer named Lureen Newsome (Anne Hathaway), though it’s suggested that her family’s wealth may have as much to do with her appeal as her personal charms. They marry and settle in Childress, Texas, where they both work for Lureen’s father, a big-time farm-equipment dealer. After four years have passed since that summer on the mountain, Jack finally heads back up to Wyoming and finds Ennis. When they meet again, their passion overtakes them, and they resume their relationship, planning several hunting or fishing trips a year so that they can be together, Jack driving 14-hour stretches at every opportunity to spend time alone with Ennis.

Ledger and Gyllenhaal inhabit their characters with powerful realism. As the years pass, the actors age subtly but persuasively. Jack grows a Dennis Weaver moustache and develops a beer gut; Ennis, who seemed old even when he was young, changes only in the hardening of his face, his skin growing more dry and taut, getting crepey around the eyes. The makeup artists have done great work here, but it’s Ledger and Gyllenhaal who have to carry these scenes off, and they do so admirably. Even in the latter part of the film, when Ledger is playing father to a young woman who can’t be more than six or seven years his junior, you don’t question it.

For those who care about a film adaptation’s faithfulness to its literary forerunner, the situation of Brokeback Mountain’s production — adapting a brief but thematically rich and emotionally resonant story — is perhaps ideal. The nature of film — its reliance on the visual and the active over the contemplative, its necessary brevity — makes it almost impossible to do full justice to a novel, but a short story doesn’t make such demands on a screenwriter. Rather than reducing or eliminating themes and events, he can use what was in the original and expand upon it, taking ideas that were only hinted at and exploring them at greater length, bringing out new meanings and enriching existing ones. This is what Brokeback Mountain’s screenwriters, Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana, have done; they know that Proulx’s story wasn’t broke, and they don’t try to fix it. They simply take it and allow it to sprawl out, to fill up the edges of the film with carefully observed details. McMurtry, a Texan and author of both contemporary and period novels and screenplays about the West, understands this world as well as anyone might; Ossana has lived much of her life in New Mexico and Arizona and has collaborated with McMurtry on novels and screenplays for over a decade. Their elaborations on Proulx’s story are keyed perfectly to her pitch. They’ve made the chronology more linear — an esthetically neutral decision in this case — but nothing of substance is missing, while some useful context and character motivations are added. They expand the story into other points of view, strengthening Proulx’s insights, giving a greater sense of the impact that Ennis and Jack’s love has on those around them, and adding such small but meaningful touches as a brown paper sack offered at just the right moment.

This is the first film Ang Lee has directed since Hulk, and he seems to have learned from that considerable misfire. He’s playing to his strengths here, and they are remarkable. Like many of the canniest observers of American life, Lee is an outsider who has adopted the American culture and who continues to see our society with a clearer eye than we may have ourselves. A native of Taiwan who has lived much of his adult life in the United States, Lee is adept at immersing himself in new cultures (New York Times critic Stephen Holden once called him “a kind of cinematic anthropologist”), recreating the world of his characters and examining it with a thoughtful, critical eye without resorting to parody. Lee has sometimes been accused of being too clinical, of keeping his subjects at an objective distance, but there’s none of that here. His empathy with these characters — each of them trapped in his or her own particular way — is palpable, yet he never tips over into sentimentality or lugubriousness.

Lee and his cinematographer, the versatile Rodrigo Prieto (21 Grams, Alexander), capture the feeling that runs through all of Proulx’s Wyoming stories, a sense of the permanence of the land and the transience of individual human lives. Their Wyoming (played with picture-postcard beauty by Alberta, Canada) is a painterly landscape of craggy mountains; rich, verdant grasslands; and a gorgeous, endless sky above, that serves as half of a metaphor for the characters’ dual lives; it’s the idyllic Eden where Ennis and Jack first meet and later find temporary escape, the place they can be together and be themselves without fear of judgment, contrasted against the constricted feel of the dusty, squalid cow towns and tacky, middle-class, southwestern suburbs where they spend most of their lives.

Lee takes the classic contrast between nature and civilization and uses it in a new way, as an implicit argument that the love between Ennis and Jack is a natural thing subverted by the arbitrary rules and definitions of manhood of their society. This might sound pretentious, and in many other hands it could be, but the beauty of Lee’s technique is its simplicity, its directness and lack of pretense, its ability to suggest without overplaying. He’s assisted by the somber elegance of Gustavo Santaolalla’s guitar-and-fiddle score, which evokes Country-Western music without quite entering its twangy domain and fits the moods Lee creates without overselling them.

Brokeback Mountain bears some similarities to Lee’s 1993 film The Wedding Banquet, in which a gay Chinese man living in New York with his lover must get himself a nice Chinese wife to appease his traditional parents back in Taiwan. Lee isn’t gay, but in films like The Wedding Banquet, Sense and Sensibility, The Ice Storm, and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon he’s shown an understanding of gay men and straight women — the disenfranchised of patriarchies — that’s greater than just about any other straight male director I can think of; as much as I admire Gus Van Sant (who is gay and who at one point expressed interest in directing Brokeback Mountain) I can’t imagine anyone doing this story better. As far as I know, none of the principals involved in the production is gay, yet they’ve constructed a story of love between men that surpasses all but the greatest films made by gay filmmakers, such as Van Sant’s My Own Private Idaho. Lee’s fascinated with people whose desires are thwarted by the strictures of society and the sacrifices demanded by tradition. And, in America, no tradition is more venerable than the notion of the laconic, stalwart western hero, the icon that Jack wishes he were and that Ennis falls to by dint of circumstance. It’s part of Ennis’ appeal to Jack that he embodies the cowboy archetype Jack aspires to.

Lee’s aware that he’s playing with myth, but he doesn’t muck about with it capriciously. Westerns are always about the end of a way of life, and Lee seems ambivalent about the changes that time has wrought. If Ennis and Jack were 20 years old in 2003 rather than 1963, their relationship would be easier but the West they knew would be gone. Brokeback Mountain uses the West as a backdrop, but it’s not structured like a Western, and it’s not intended as a criticism of the genre like McCabe and Mrs. Miller or Unforgiven, films that took the Western hero and made him either a buffoon or a sociopath; rather it’s a film that employs selected genre elements for their resonances, their associations. The mythic quality of the landscape and the lonesome figures moving through it only serves to emphasize the difficulty of these men playing the roles they’ve been given, the impossibility of living up to a myth.

The filmmakers have the guts to allow for the moral ambiguity of Ennis and Jack’s situation and explore the toll their secret takes on their families. No matter how powerful or natural their desires, by following them they’re hurting the women they married in their misdirected search for the passion they find only with each other. While I’d enjoyed Michelle Williams’ performances in small roles in recent films like Imaginary Heroes and The Baxter, until now my concept of her was essentially “that girl from ‘Dawson’s Creek.’” Those days are over. Her performance here is so deeply felt, authentic, and adult that it wipes away all my preconceived notions about her — not to mention blowing her former co-star Katie Holmes, whose recent performances haven’t strayed far from the Creek, right out of the water. When Williams’ Alma first witnesses her husband embracing a man, kissing him, her face expresses about 10 kinds of alarm, confusion, heartbreak, and horror. And Anne Hathaway, who plays Jack’s wife Lureen, might have forever been Mia Thermopolis (http://www.pajiba.com/princess-diaries-2-royal-engagement-the.htm) to me but for her role here. She’s given less to play than Williams, but she makes the most of every moment. Her silent triumph when Jack finally stands up to her bullying father is exhilarating, and the slight catch in her throat that disturbs her frosty demeanor when she speaks to Ennis for the first and last time, the subtle suggestion that she’s finally learned her husband’s secret, completely transforms the way we see her character. Even the actors in roles that count for little more than cameos, such as the tiny part played by an unrecognizable Anna Faris, or the slightly larger role given to Linda Cardellini, hit home. It’s as if Lee had been asked to prove that every B-list actress in Hollywood under 30 had unplumbed depths. There’s not a performer in the film who doesn’t stretch (well, maybe Randy Quaid, but it’s nice to see him in a respectable role again), and there’s not one who fails.

Lee is aware of his film’s place in the world, that no one will approach it as just a romance and that much more attention will be given it than if the actors were nobodies, and his approach is, I think, the best possible one, low-key and matter-of-fact, making the story feel genuine and simple and true. Brokeback Mountain is a film of great subtlety and precise observation, a film for which the best descriptors are words like “rich” and “authentic” and, possibly, “perfect.” After three viewings and some careful consideration, I’m damned if I can find a significant flaw. There are one or two lines of dialogue that I might change, and Gyllenhaal’s early scenes made more sense to me upon the second viewing, but these are quibbles. In a medium where the important decisions are almost always dictated by commerce rather than art, Brokeback Mountain is as close to perfection as we are likely to get.

[Whar]

Talk Soup says the per-screen numbers is about a whole whopping $100,000 per-viewing.

I got a kick out of this since it is one of the highest grossing movie in limited release ever. To put the $100,000 per theater average in perspective Passion of the Christ, a phenonamally successly film, had its highest average theater gross on its 4th day of release. It was $10,870. To be fair that was in ~3,800 compared to Brokeback's 5, however $100,000 is an amazing amount of money to average per screen.

If Brokeback held that average in similar wide distributed release it would broke Passion of the Christ's total domestic gross in a single day. Obviously it will not but trying to demean Brokeback already strong success with a 'whole whopping $100,000' seems remarkably obtuse.