New York Transit Strike

[Joe]

How many of you are being affected, and what are you doing about it? Seems like a tough city to get around in with no subway.

[Logan]

Personally, I'm happy to be working in Stamford, CT instead of the city this week.

[KWhit]

My wife and I were discussing it this morning. We lived in NYC for about 4 years and there would be no way we could have gotten to work today. We lived in Queens and worked in Brooklyn (although I travelled all the time). It might have been possible for us to get a cab, but I imagine they are pretty hard to come by right now.

Also, think about all the people who are trying to get to the airport today and in the coming days to travel for the holidays. There will be many people missing their flights.

[RPI-Fan]

How long do you guys think this will last? Just curious if it has a good chance of affecting me when I start work in the beginning of January?

Since the MTA people average $1k/wk, that means every week on strike costs EACH person $2k (strike costs two dollars for every dollar they make). I can't see them tolerating that for too long.

[KWhit]

I heard on the radio that it's against the law for public employees to strike in NYC. I wonder what the penalty is?

[KWhit]

How long do you guys think this will last? Just curious if it has a good chance of affecting me when I start work in the beginning of January?
The last one lasted 11 days (in 1980).

[RPI-Fan]

I heard on the radio that it's against the law for public employees to strike in NYC. I wonder what the penalty is?

For the MTA people it's two days pay for every day they're on strike.

[KWhit]

For the MTA people it's two days pay for every day they're on strike.
I had heard that, but I wasn't sure if that was the full penalty or not. I wish it was more than that. They are inconveniencing a lot of people today.

Another thing that occurred to me: I would imagine that a lot of healthcare personnel are having trouble getting to work today. Low to middle income employees such as nurses, etc. depend on transit to get them to their jobs. I'm afraid that hospitals will be extremely understaffed until this is resolved.

[RPI-Fan]

I had heard that, but I wasn't sure if that was the full penalty or not. I wish it was more than that. They are inconveniencing a lot of people today.

Another thing that occurred to me: I would imagine that a lot of healthcare personnel are having trouble getting to work today. Low to middle income employees such as nurses, etc. depend on transit to get them to their jobs. I'm afraid that hospitals will be extremely understaffed until this is resolved.

I agree. It's also frustrating to realize that these people make as much money as cops, and have equal benefits, but the cops have stricter provisions against striking.

[RPI-Fan]

I had heard that, but I wasn't sure if that was the full penalty or not. I wish it was more than that. They are inconveniencing a lot of people today.

Another thing that occurred to me: I would imagine that a lot of healthcare personnel are having trouble getting to work today. Low to middle income employees such as nurses, etc. depend on transit to get them to their jobs. I'm afraid that hospitals will be extremely understaffed until this is resolved.

In the story I saw on Yahoo! News that was the only penalty mentioned.

[WrongWay]

Man vs Machine.

Do they actually need to have a Subway driver, or can this system be totally automated from a central control room?

[RPI-Fan]

Man vs Machine.

Do they actually need to have a Subway driver, or can this system be totally automated from a central control room?

That's actually a big part of the strike, I think. Within 10-20 years that's their goal (and they're currently experimenting with it at least on the L-line), and that's why the workers want to get every penny they can now, I think.

[Anthony]

you don't want to hear my views on this. all the city needs to do is give everyone the whole week off and let those lowlives freeze their asses out in the cold for no reason.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Now I don't know about the rest of their benefits,their hours, etc., but I did see this little blurb in one of the articles "MTA workers earn around $47,000 to $55,000 annually".

Taken by itself, that does seem kinda low for me in a city with the sort of cost of living NYC has. I finally dug up the median HHI figure for NYC, $41,509, so maybe it isn't as low as it sounded after all, but it did strike me as being a little low at first (based on the nominal idea that these jobs should land someone in roughly the middle class).

[Anthony]

i so want to get into this, but it'd wind up making me rant all day and i'm already in hot water for drinking a little more than i should have at the company christmas party so it's best i try to be as productive as possible.

[KWhit]

... and i'm already in hot water for drinking a little more than i should have at the company christmas party ....
This deserves its own thread.

[albionmoonlight]

i so want to get into this, but it'd wind up making me rant all day and i'm already in hot water for drinking a little more than i should have at the company christmas party so it's best i try to be as productive as possible.
Just write up one big rant in a Word document (so it looks like you are working) and then paste it unto the board.

Unless you actually need to work (as opposed to looking like you are working).

[Anthony]

it's one of those things that a year from now, when i'm in a different company, i'll laugh about with my friends. right now, yeesh. had a talk with my manager yesterday, now i have to have another talk with my director and manager, and when my VP gets back he wants to talk to me as well. i was told i wouldn't get fired, so that's all i care about. i have one foot out the door anyway, just got my first house so a fella needs some more dough.

and to think i was just gonna go home after work the day of the party. damn free booze, you are my enemy!

[JonInMiddleGA]

NEVER drink at an office Christmas party, there's simply nothing good that can come of it.

(Come to think of it, I believe that can pretty much be said for office Christmas parties period)

[Raiders Army]

it's one of those things that a year from now, when i'm in a different company, i'll laugh about with my friends. right now, yeesh. had a talk with my manager yesterday, now i have to have another talk with my director and manager, and when my VP gets back he wants to talk to me as well. i was told i wouldn't get fired, so that's all i care about. i have one foot out the door anyway, just got my first house so a fella needs some more dough.

and to think i was just gonna go home after work the day of the party. damn free booze, you are my enemy!
At least they didn't put you in the penalty box.

[Anthony]

NEVER drink at an office Christmas party, there's simply nothing good that can come of it.

(Come to think of it, I believe that can pretty much be said for office Christmas parties period)

for now on, it's just diet coke for me. i think today's topic will revolve around me calling in sick the day after the party for the 2nd year in a row. i was gonna go in but didn't based on the recommendation of my wife that i just sit this one out.

just like George W. Bush, i too, am happy that there's a big story to take the spotlight off a negative transgression. everyone today is talking about the strike, so i'm already yesterday's news (for the most part). but yeah, no more booze for me at these things.

[cthomer5000]

How many of you are being affected, and what are you doing about it? Seems like a tough city to get around in with no subway.
It's a real pain in my fucking balls. Walking 25 blocks in fucking freezing temperatures is no fun. And the lines for cabs are so long is not a plausible option.

[KWhit]

It's a real pain in my fucking balls. Walking 25 blocks in fucking freezing temperatures is no fun. And the lines for cabs are so long is not a plausible option.
And I'd imagine that many/most people in the city live further away from work than you do. I know that we did when we were up there.

I can't help but believe that the organized labor movement has been bastardized when a strike can deal such a blow to the city over $$. We're not talking sweatshops and child labor here, we're talking about raises, pensions, and healthcare costs.

[Crapshoot]

Now I don't know about the rest of their benefits,their hours, etc., but I did see this little blurb in one of the articles "MTA workers earn around $47,000 to $55,000 annually".

Taken by itself, that does seem kinda low for me in a city with the sort of cost of living NYC has. I finally dug up the median HHI figure for NYC, $41,509, so maybe it isn't as low as it sounded after all, but it did strike me as being a little low at first (based on the nominal idea that these jobs should land someone in roughly the middle class).

Eh - I guess I disgree - there little to no skill set required to be a conducter or a ticket collector - if anything, they are replaceable at cheaper rates IMO>

[Honolulu_Blue]

NEVER drink at an office Christmas party, there's simply nothing good that can come of it.

(Come to think of it, I believe that can pretty much be said for office Christmas parties period)
Wise words indeed from Middle, GA.

[cthomer5000]

And I'd imagine that many/most people in the city live further away from work than you do. I know that we did when we were up there.

I can't help but believe that the organized labor movement has been bastardized when a strike can deal such a blow to the city over $$. We're not talking sweatshops and child labor here, we're talking about raises, pensions, and healthcare costs.
Yeah, New Jersey Transit is still running, so i can get into Penn Station (34th street) with no problem. I work on 57th street, so the walk isn't really that bad (1.25-1.5 miles). I work with people who live way up in the 150s.... they haven't really figured out how they're getting home yet. It's hurting people the most who live and work in the boroughs. Unless you're driving from Bronx, Brooklyn, Staten Island, etc.... you're shit out of luck.

[Anthony]

someone forwarded this to me:

The MTA Will Always Let Your Down

Got in to work an hour late today
You gotta hand it to the MTA
A billion dollar surplus and they still can't run on time
They're gettin' paid more than a guy like me
Who went into debt and got a degree
But it still don't keep those fools from runnin' behind

Now I can't be the brightest scholar here
But it seems that after a hundred years
You can figure a way to make this system work
Every other year the fares go up
Yet they're still whinin', well I've had enough
It's enough to drive a rational man bezerk!

The MTA will always let you down
The worst part is they know that they're the only game in town
They slam doors in your face and they'll ruin your mood
And some of their workers border on rude
The MTA will always let you down!

Now skippin' two stops don't make you "Express"
If you're only goin' 4 miles an hour or less
Don't you feed that gerbil, runnin' on the wheel?
That's the only explanation that makes sense to me
'Cause a decent engine should get up some speed
I'm sorry if you're mad but that's the way we truly feel

The MTA will always let you down
These inept muthas took a sorry system and ran it into the ground
Management's bad and the Union is worse
If the trains went any slower they'd run in reverse
The MTA will always let you down!

(brake it!)

I got a great idea that you might like
Wait 'til five days 'til Christmas then let's go out on strike
If it ruins your Holiday that's too damn bad!
Screw the public, do what you please
Makes you feel great 'bout paying next year's increase
You've left us feeling like we've all been had.........

The MTA will always let you down
I can't believe we're dependent on these pack of clowns
So you might as well call your boss on the phone
And say "Happy New Year, you're on your own"
The MTA will always let.....
(And we're at their mercy, don't you ever forget)
The MTA will always let you down!

(Sorry that we've ruined your day.....
So sorry for the unavoidable delay.....
the MTA will always let you down!)

[miked]

These guys are idiots. My brother couldn't get to work today. Like they can't work in good faith without a contract for a week or so until the holiday rush is over. I hope they all freeze and the MTA uses the money saved by not paying these guys to automate everything. Apparently, their extra 3% increase is more important than the other millions who are getting screwed by this.

[Anthony]

ok, met with my director today, still not fired. WOOO. after our talk (which, as i suspected, was 50% about my calling in sick after the party for a 2nd year in a row) she even gave me a christmas gift that she had meant to give me the day after the party.

it was a bottle of wine. [cue laugh track]

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I'm going to ride my bike to work. It's about 10 miles from 144th St. to downtown. My boss was extremely worries about how everyone would get to work. One guy is going around and picking people up, but as concerned about our getting to work as they are there was no thought as to how I would get home at 11pm tonight. I'm riding the bike. I hate relying on others.

[RPI-Fan]

Kind of unrelated, but whenever stuff does get up and running again, this is a really neat tool for using the subways, etc.

http://www.brail.org/transit/nycgoogle.html

[Jesse_Ewiak]

I realize as the liberal on the boards here, I say go TWU.

For a office worker, yeah, 55 is a more than fair retirement wage.

It is absolutely unreasonable to ask people to perform backbreaking physical labor until 62. Many job titles in transit require either high stress, like driving a bus, or physical work, like repairing trains in open train yards in 20 degree weather and ice and snow. New York's subways run 24/7 and so does the work to maintain them.

They don't want a two-tired workforce because they're not looking to hurt their kin. But to the people at the MTA, who want their kids to get nice, safe office jobs, seven additional years don't matter. But when your job requires physical labor, or physical risk, those seven years means you die on the job. The average retirement for a bus drive is only two-three year because they drop dead at at sixty due to the stress.

When the union was mostly Irish, the retirement age was 50. As it became black, the retirement age was raised to 55. Now that it is largely minority, they want to raise the age to 62. You don't see anyone expecting the uniformed services to work past 40. But what this really about is shutting up the union, which has been active in taking up ridership and security issues.

Also, city and state workers don't pay for their health care while working. If the TWU gives ground on this, Bloomberg will certainly ask for it from city workers. One percent isn't a big deal for office workers, but it means the beggining of the erosion of all worker protections, like defined pensions.

So while the TWU isn't perfect, the MTA is unreliable and untrustworthy. I'm sure ya' disagree with me on this, but at some point, unions have to take a stand or be thrown to the scrapheap.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It is absolutely unreasonable to ask people to perform backbreaking physical labor until 62.

That dog might hunt better if the retirement age for other similar occupations weren't closer to 70.

You don't see anyone expecting the uniformed services to work past 40.

You lost me here, what "uniformed services" are you talking about?
(seriously, I'm not bustin' on you, I'm just trying to figure out who you mean)

[Jesse_Ewiak]

Cops/firefighters can retire after twenty or twenty-five years. So, starting at eighteen or so, then 40-45. I went a little low, but same difference. I'm not saying they don't deserve it, but it's a valid comparsion.

As for the other, is it TWU's fault they got a better deal than other unions? The average retirement of a bus driver is only three-four years because they drop dead at sixty.

[Anthony]

you're right.

i disagree with you. you're talking about a group of non-college educated people who want increased benefits. they aren't the same as cops - cops need a certain amount of college credits to join the force and are in a more life-threatening job environment and need to be in a decent physical shape in order to do their job. i don't know about bus drivers in other cities, but in NYC it's no strange thing to see overweight bus drivers. what skill is required to drive a bus that high school dropouts don't have? and operating a train? at least on buses you might have to make left or right turns and watch out for pedestrians and other cars. there's none of that in driving a train. you need only to stop and go. and they want to retire early for that? you could be a train operator into your 70's.

the problem is back when the union was mostly irish we weren't in a PC-dominated environment. physical labor was an important duty. now that the world revolves around spreadsheets, paperless environments, manipulating data and being able to learn new systems the transit union has gone the way of people who don't want to put in the necessary mental work to better themselves.

[Anthony]

You lost me here, what "uniformed services" are you talking about?
(seriously, I'm not bustin' on you, I'm just trying to figure out who you mean)

he means cops and (i'm sure) firefighters.

a co-worker of mine is going to become a firefighter in January '06, you can retire after 20 years and receive 50% of your salary as pension. after 25 years you get 75%. all this and free lifetime medical benefits.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Cops/firefighters can retire after twenty or twenty-five years. So, starting at eighteen or so, then 40-45. I went a little low, but same difference.

As for the other, is it TWU's fault they got a better deal than other unions? The average retirement of a bus driver is only three-four years because they drop dead at sixty.

Thanks for the "uniformed" clarification, I really wasn't sure if you meant police/fire, or if there was some distinction in the transit ranks I was missing, or what.

On the other point, I'm not blaming the union for whatever deal they've managed to get, I was just pointing out that you're not likely to see much in the way of sympathy/empathy for them when they've got a better deal on the age score than a lot of similar workers.

(FTR, mostly because it might come as a surprise to you/some people -- I'm not a big fan of pushing back retirement ages in general. And 68-72 for full retirement borders on downright cruel IMO. So I'm not neccessariliy arguing against lowering retirement age here, I was just pointing out why that isn't likely to be a selling point for the union in this case).

[Jesse_Ewiak]

Oh yeah, they're being paid well, because people like me and you won't do that job. But why should people who work with their hands actuially be paid a middle class wage. Just because the city shuts down without them is no reason to treat them fairly.

The city has refused to deal fairly with it's labor unions and drawn out negotations for years. If the TWU kept negotation, the MTA would draw this out for months, if not years.

Also, do you not think driving a bus through Manhattan concerns a credible skill? This is a dumb assertion. Please tell me why some kid who's read Chaucer deserves a better-paying job than a professional who's practiced a trade for years.

Some idiots seem to think that education is valuable in and of itself, that it is a merit badge of competence. Bullshit. A BA is little more than a status symbol. An undergraduate degree is an emblem of socialization which is why it is useful in getting an office job: "Look, this degree means I have at least 5 office shirts and won't question the stupid-ass decisions of management imprudently."

People have decided education is the end, whereas it was designed to be the means to an end: imparting practical knowledge and skills.

If you think the TWU workers have it easy, if you think they are overpaid, if you would just loooove to have their sweet healthcare deal, if you think they are paid to "sleep", then take your butt down to the MTA and apply for a job.

What? You love your office job where you can spend an hour planning your Secret Santa pool, where you can surf the web until lunch, where you can take an extra half hour on lunch...well, boo fucking hoo for you.

Because we know that the unions are running this country. They control all the banks, companies, and all the politicians.

As a final note, whose fault is it that you have to pay for crappy insurance and aren't going to get a pension in the private sector?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't imagine I agree with a whole lot of the things you post, but ...

An undergraduate degree is an emblem of socialization which is why it is useful in getting an office job: "Look, this degree means I have at least 5 office shirts and won't question the stupid-ass decisions of management imprudently."

If that's an original line & isn't borrowed from some movie I've never seen or something, then that's just GOLD !

Heck, even if you did borrow it from somewhere, I still love it.

[Jesse_Ewiak]

Quasi-ripped off and modified from someone else somewhere else, but same difference. Look, I admit part of the reason why I'm going to college is because I don't want to work as hard as someone doing hard physical work. I don't like physical labor and I'll happily admit it. But I'll support the people that do over the suits every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Huckleberry]

One thing that I'll agree with Jesse on is that the very fact that so many people are ticked off at these people today and hope that they're fired is an argument that they really are worth more than they're being paid.

Some of the more educated people may believe, and rightly so, that they're worth more than the MTA workers. But from what I can tell that guy that's paid 200K/yr isn't worth quite as much to his company if the transit workers don't do their job. Because he's not there as early in the morning or as late at night and his productivity is down with more energy expended on the commute. So maybe they deserve a little of that 200K/yr.

Not my argument, but apparently an argument that has some validity to it.

[Anthony]

Oh yeah, they're being paid well, because people like me and you won't do that job. But why should people who work with their hands actuially be paid a middle class wage. Just because the city shuts down without them is no reason to treat them fairly.

The city has refused to deal fairly with it's labor unions and drawn out negotations for years. If the TWU kept negotation, the MTA would draw this out for months, if not years.

Also, do you not think driving a bus through Manhattan concerns a credible skill? This is a dumb assertion. Please tell me why some kid who's read Chaucer deserves a better-paying job than a professional who's practiced a trade for years.

Some idiots seem to think that education is valuable in and of itself, that it is a merit badge of competence. Bullshit. A BA is little more than a status symbol. An undergraduate degree is an emblem of socialization which is why it is useful in getting an office job: "Look, this degree means I have at least 5 office shirts and won't question the stupid-ass decisions of management imprudently."

People have decided education is the end, whereas it was designed to be the means to an end: imparting practical knowledge and skills.

If you think the TWU workers have it easy, if you think they are overpaid, if you would just loooove to have their sweet healthcare deal, if you think they are paid to "sleep", then take your butt down to the MTA and apply for a job.

What? You love your office job where you can spend an hour planning your Secret Santa pool, where you can surf the web until lunch, where you can take an extra half hour on lunch...well, boo fucking hoo for you.

Because we know that the unions are running this country. They control all the banks, companies, and all the politicians.

As a final note, whose fault is it that you have to pay for crappy insurance and aren't going to get a pension in the private sector?

a BA is the key to corporate America because it shows:

1. that i have personally invested in my education and have seen to it that i have more tools than is provided by a high school education to succeed.

2. that i have an aptitude for learning and thinking out resolutions to problems.

3. that i have more extensive experience working in groups to complete projects, which is a lot of what comprises most office work.

4. that i have the ambition required to work my way up the ladder and the drive to want to make something better of myself.

[Raiders Army]

Cops/firefighters can retire after twenty or twenty-five years. So, starting at eighteen or so, then 40-45. I went a little low, but same difference. I'm not saying they don't deserve it, but it's a valid comparsion.

As for the other, is it TWU's fault they got a better deal than other unions? The average retirement of a bus driver is only three-four years because they drop dead at sixty.
Big difference between putting your life on the line and driving a bus.

[Anthony]

how is driving a bus or being a token booth collector actually considered "physical labor". don't give me this shit about bus drivers dying early cuz it's a stressful job. most bus drivers are overweight, i'm sure that plays a big part of it. most NYC bus drivers turn a deaf ear to the complaints of the riders. they don't seem to be that stressful. maybe a little more so during rush hour, but in the middle of the day, with minimal traffic? stop.

[CamEdwards]

Quasi-ripped off and modified from someone else somewhere else, but same difference. Look, I admit part of the reason why I'm going to college is because I don't want to work as hard as someone doing hard physical work. I don't like physical labor and I'll happily admit it. But I'll support the people that do over the suits every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Jumping Tittytwisting Christ, you did not just use the phrase "the suits" did you?

Yes. You did.

As for the merits of your argument, in the short run the union might very well get its way. And in the long run, they'll be seen as gigantic pains in the ass to be replaced by automation as soon as is feasible. I don't think they're overpaid, I don't think their health care plan is unreasonable, and I don't think they get paid to sleep on the job.

I think they transport people from one place to another, and that's worth about what they're being paid right now. If the union members think they're being underpaid, they should open up the jobs to non-union members. Let the free market determine the value of their job.

[JonInMiddleGA]

a BA is the key to corporate America because it shows:

1. that i have personally invested in my education and have seen to it that i have more tools than is provided by a high school education to succeed.

2. that i have an aptitude for learning and thinking out resolutions to problems.

3. that i have more extensive experience working in groups to complete projects, which is a lot of what comprises most office work.

4. that i have the ambition required to work my way up the ladder and the drive to want to make something better of myself.

First, I would argue that #1 & #2 aren't neccessarily absolutes, #3 I'll give you, and #4 remains to be seen (because the college ladder & the workforce work ladder are often pretty different animals)

More important, none of those tell me anything about what I, as a business owner, care about most:
1) Can you do the job? If not, can you be taught a skill(s) useful to me?
2) Can you ultimately do the job correctly?
3) Can you do the job without increasing my urge to commit homicide?
4) Can you do the job without requiring micromanagement?
5) Can you make me more profitable, more efficent, or produce a better product?

Yeah, I realize that my priorities are probably different than a lot of uber-corps, but that falls under the heading of "not-my-problem" too ;)

A BA proves to me that you were likely to have consumed oxygen for a period of 3-5 years. Other than that ... pfft.

edit to add: Full disclosure, that's the take of a guy who didn't finish the 4 years because he found actual work more appealing. It's worked out pretty well for me, if I do say so myself, and I'm discouraged by the fact that I'm pretty much at the very end of the age range where such a thing is possible.
If I were even 10 years younger, the path I followed to success would never have been open to me.

[Anthony]

First, I would argue that #1 & #2 aren't neccessarily absolutes, #3 I'll give you, and #4 remains to be seen (because the college ladder & the workforce work ladder are often pretty different animals)

More important, none of those tell me anything about what I, as a business owner, care about most:
1) Can you do the job? If not, can you be taught a skill(s) useful to me?
2) Can you ultimately do the job correctly?
3) Can you do the job without increasing my urge to commit homicide?
4) Can you do the job without requiring micromanagement?
5) Can you make me more profitable, more efficent, or produce a better product?

Yeah, I realize that my priorities are probably different than a lot of uber-corps, but that falls under the heading of "not-my-problem" too ;)

A BA proves to me that you were likely to have consumed oxygen for a period of 3-5 years. Other than that ... pfft.

edit to add: Full disclosure, that's the take of a guy who didn't finish the 4 years because he found actual work more appealing. It's worked out pretty well for me, if I do say so myself, and I'm discouraged by the fact that I'm pretty much at the very end of the age range where such a thing is possible.
If I were even 10 years younger, the path I followed to success would never have been open to me.

on a far less extreme, though, having a BA is a more tangible way of proving "i am commited to bettering myself, and have proof of generally being able to be taught things, as well as having the discipline required to complete a 4 year long journey known as college". discipline, commitment to bettering oneself and exhibiting a capacity to learn are the calling cards to a successful career. a college degree shows that investment in one's self, a bigger investment than someone who graduates high school, takes a test to join the transit workforce and spends a fraction of the time it takes to get a college degree to learn his craft.

[Anthony]

i'm heavily in favor of privatizing the transit union. it needs to be run by the private sector, and by competing companies. multiple companies competing to make a profit will churn out a more efficient product and prices will be kept in check. for important services like transit and perhaps sanitation - we need private companies. strikes can't be permitted. as a worker you can't impose your perceived value on yourself. the marketplace determines your value. don't have a college education and have a job with non-challenging tasks that require little to no training? be happy with what you get.

[RPI-Fan]

The thing that bugs me most about the strike, is one of the main reasons the transit workers HAVE a decent salary, and great benefits is BECAUSE of the no-strike clause in their contract.

The MTA, last time around, gave extra concessions so they could make it against law for the workers to strike. The workers want to have it both ways, though, which is what frustrates me.

[KevinNU7]

same difference
Can you stop saying that? It's driving me shithouse.

[timmae]

i'm heavily in favor of privatizing the transit union. it needs to be run by the private sector, and by competing companies.

I have 2 examples that pretty much make this argument ironclad... Commonwealth Edison and MWRD (Metropolitan Water Reclamation District). I'd venture a guess more than a few poeple don't earn those salaries and benefits...

[albionmoonlight]

i'm heavily in favor of privatizing the transit union. it needs to be run by the private sector, and by competing companies. multiple companies competing to make a profit will churn out a more efficient product and prices will be kept in check. for important services like transit and perhaps sanitation - we need private companies. strikes can't be permitted. as a worker you can't impose your perceived value on yourself. the marketplace determines your value. don't have a college education and have a job with non-challenging tasks that require little to no training? be happy with what you get.
I think that most large utilities need to be run either as public entities or as quasi-public entities because of the infrastructure costs. How would competiting subways work? Would you have dozens of "start-up" subway stations popping up all over Manhattan? That would waste a lot of space and money.

Also, while I make no representations as to the strike in this case, what is "anti-marketplace" about letting workers collectively bargain? The market is still setting the price. The company just does not get to play employees off each other.

These things should never come to a strike, and the main reason that they do is because labor and management negotiators always turn it into a pissing match and try to see who is going to blink first. Of course, you have to be a bulldog type personality to become a labor/management negotiator, so it is somewhat self perpetuating.

In this case, though, everyone is saying that the strike is illegal. So normal rules may not apply.

[Anthony]

I think that most large utilities need to be run either as public entities or as quasi-public entities because of the infrastructure costs. How would competiting subways work? Would you have dozens of "start-up" subway stations popping up all over Manhattan? That would waste a lot of space and money.

Also, while I make no representations as to the strike in this case, what is "anti-marketplace" about letting workers collectively bargain? The market is still setting the price. The company just does not get to play employees off each other.

These things should never come to a strike, and the main reason that they do is because labor and management negotiators always turn it into a pissing match and try to see who is going to blink first. Of course, you have to be a bulldog type personality to become a labor/management negotiator, so it is somewhat self perpetuating.

In this case, though, everyone is saying that the strike is illegal. So normal rules may not apply.

for years there were competing phone companies using the very same phone lines owned by Ma Bell.