Do non-christian religions in the USA get offended?

[Airhog]

With all of the current religious debates going on right now, I have started to wonder more about this. Especially in regards to the Happy Holidays debate, and ID theory in the classroom. Do you ever hear of other religions in the US complaining about things like this? In all honesty, I haven't really heard anything about this. I think there is one obvious reason. You do not see many people that worship a non-christian religion, in positions of power in the government. I wouldn't be suprised if that didn't reach as far down as a local level.

[Dutch]

If I'm not mistaken, Christians aren't the ones complaining about Christmas.

[MrBigglesworth]

If I'm not mistaken, Christians aren't the ones complaining about Christmas.
The religious right is known for being very atheist.

There is the Jewish Anti-defamation League that handles a lot of Jewish complaints, and the ACLU handles a lot of religious complaints (only the opposite of Christian ones, i.e. when the government represses their religions).

[Tekneek]

The "religious right" is known for being "very atheist."

Maybe my lack of sleep leading into Christmas has done me in, but surely this is a joke?

Religions are not offended by anything. People are.

[Dutch]

The beautiful thing about this country is you can still celebrate whatever you want.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

I didn't say that to be offensive, I just wanted to wish good will in my people's traditional way.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The "religious right" is known for being "very atheist."
Maybe my lack of sleep leading into Christmas has done me in, but surely this is a joke?

"Activist" maybe?

[kcchief19]

Not sure I understand the premise of the question. What do you mean by "other religions?"

FWIW, I was raised Catholic and still consider myself Catholic even though I do not attend services regularly. I'm offended by the debate over happy holidays and intelligent design because I think there should be a clear division between religion and state (ID) and it's nobody's business whether I say Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays and why I do it.

I'm not sure I understand the question about non-Christians in positions of government. But no, I don't see any Muslims on boards of education trying to teach the Koran in sciences classes in this country or Muslims boycotting stores that use "Happy Holidays" instead of "Happy Ramadan."

[Airhog]

I meant other religions as being religions that are a definate minority in the states here. FWIW, I would lump Catholics loosely in with the christians. Maybe I should have stated the questions as non-christian religions...

[Dutch]

Is being in the majority automatically make you offensive to others?

[Glengoyne]

Is being in the majority automatically make you offensive to others?Don't be silly. Of course it is. I'm always oppressing the Jews, athiests, and Muslims I run into when I wish them a Merry Christmas.

I'm a jack booted thug with good tidings to bear.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is being in the majority automatically make you offensive to others?

Oh you didn't know? Well ...

[MrBigglesworth]

Yeah, it's the non-Christians who are the offended ones in this country. It is the atheists, Jews, and Muslims organizing boycotts for saying 'Happy Holidays' and going on their nationally telvised shows talking about the War on Hanukkah.

The persecution complex of Christians always amazes me.

[Drake]

I'm a jack booted thug with good tidings to bear.

Can I steal this line as my sig? I love it.

[Joe Canadian]

Both side of this "Merry Christmas" debate are out of line...

I'll quote myself from the OOTP board, because it pretty much sums up my opinion on this:

"I honestly wish to **** that this whole debate would just go away... I'm sick of people being offended of Chistmas... and I'm sick of people using this as an opportunity to re-Chistianize everyone or get some votes!!!!! Just STFU and go away!!!"

[st.cronin]

By all rights, Christians should be much more offended by Christmas than non-Christians, since the way the holiday is celebrated (and marketed) makes a mockery of Jesus' teachings.

[Mac Howard]

FWIW, I would lump Catholics loosely in with the christians.

lol at that, airhog.

As far as I can see over here it's not other religions at all that are offended by Merry Christmas, Christmas trees etc but the politically correct atheist/agnostic left. Many a Muslim spokesman here has said "you're not speaking for us when you ask that Christian symbols be removed".

As an agnostic I find it childish/trivial - can't find quite the right word but you get my drift. Multiculturism is about accepting ALL cultures (including the Christian west) and not none.

Teaching ID in science classes is a much more serious matter and I would personally remove my daughter from any school that did it but fortunately there's not a cat-in-hell's chance of that happening here in the forseeable future.

Edit:

I just realised that I hadn't capitalised "Muslim" and decided I should do so to avoid any offence. Sign of the times :)

[-Mojo Jojo-]

The thing that makes me laugh about this debate is that it's a bloody pagan holiday anyway. Maybe the pagans just want it back. Happy Saturnalia everybody!

[biological warrior]

Do some ''Christians'' consider catholics non-christians and if so why? Catholics have preserved Christianity and, the western tradition from annihilation many a times. Oh and as for me Im comfortable eough with my Christianity to say happy holidays to others. Remember nobody is forcing us Christians to not say ''Merry Christmas.''

[Airhog]

I would consider them to be a branch of christianity, much like I consider the baptists, or lutherins. While I do consider the Catholic beliefs to be different than other sects, I don't think they are different enough to consider them differently. That may just be me though

[hoosiergoody]

Merry Christmas. This is the time that we celebrate Christ's birth- that's why it is Christmas, not X-mas. I have yet to be offended by someone coming up to me and saying Happy Hanukkah or Happy Boxing Day (from my Canadian friends). Part of being "free" is the freedom to wish one a merry whatever-day-it-is. I am not free if as a Christian I have to "water-down" my greeting. My athiest friend celebrates Christmas in his way, yet he also has no problem with me wishing him a Merry Christmas greeting. If I am not mistaken, his Christmas cards even wished me the same thing (ironic, eh?)

The idea of gift-giving began when the wise men brought gifts to the Christ-child. Yes, it has commercialized quite a bit, but at this point what holiday/celebration has not done so over the past many years? Does that offend me? Not really. I love to see the lights on the Christmas tree and the presents everywhere too.

Sometimes being politically correct isn't the right thing to do. Therefore, Merry Christmas, and in return, through your own freedom of speech, you can wish me a merry whatever (no disrespect meant at all to any other holiday celebration), and I will thank you for sharing your joyous greeting with me.

Hoosiergoody

[Klinglerware]

The thing that makes me laugh about this debate is that it's a bloody pagan holiday anyway. Maybe the pagans just want it back. Happy Saturnalia everybody!

Io Saturnalia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia

[davidlando1]

First of all, Merry Christmas, Happy Hannakuah and Happy Kwanza to all. Maybe it's easier to just say happy holidays? I don't know, but I'm not that lazy. Why don't we just celebrate the diversity in this country, instead of trying to avoid it at all costs? Maybe it's only me who thinks this way, but I get offended at the Honda commercials that take the song "We Wish you a Merry Christmas" and change it to "We Wish you a happy holidays". The song is "We Wish you a Merry Christmas". Period.

FWIW, I am a Jew, always have been, always will be. I like Christmas, it does not offend me. Nor does anyone wishing me well by saying "Merry Christmas". I just really like the spirit of the season, goodwill to everyone, etc.

I just want to repeat "Let's celebrate our diversity, instead of avoiding it at all costs"

[Grammaticus]

I would consider them to be a branch of christianity, much like I consider the baptists, or lutherins. While I do consider the Catholic beliefs to be different than other sects, I don't think they are different enough to consider them differently. That may just be me though
That is funny, because all christian religions are considered to have branched from Catholicism. Bacially, Catholicism is the origination of Christianity. Lutherism and other non Catholic denominations all ultimately trace their roots back to Catholicism.

To add, all sects of christianity have differentiation in their beliefs, that is why they are different sects. But the grandfather of them all is Catholicism. To consider that it may not be Christian, is kinda funny.

[miked]

I'm pretty tired of it on all sides. I could care less whether the statehouse feels like putting a tree out front and calling it whatever they want. But why does it HAVE to be out there? Why do we HAVE to have a Christmas tree? I mean, I understand our country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs (or whatever you want to call it since I don't know how many Jews contributed to the constitution), but why do we HAVE to have 10 commandments on the courtroom walls and all that jazz. I just don't see why either side is fighting so hard for what seems to be pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

[Crapshoot]

Merry Christmas. This is the time that we celebrate Christ's birth- that's why it is Christmas, not X-mas. I have yet to be offended by someone coming up to me and saying Happy Hanukkah or Happy Boxing Day (from my Canadian friends). Part of being "free" is the freedom to wish one a merry whatever-day-it-is. I am not free if as a Christian I have to "water-down" my greeting. My athiest friend celebrates Christmas in his way, yet he also has no problem with me wishing him a Merry Christmas greeting. If I am not mistaken, his Christmas cards even wished me the same thing (ironic, eh?)

The idea of gift-giving began when the wise men brought gifts to the Christ-child. Yes, it has commercialized quite a bit, but at this point what holiday/celebration has not done so over the past many years? Does that offend me? Not really. I love to see the lights on the Christmas tree and the presents everywhere too.

Sometimes being politically correct isn't the right thing to do. Therefore, Merry Christmas, and in return, through your own freedom of speech, you can wish me a merry whatever (no disrespect meant at all to any other holiday celebration), and I will thank you for sharing your joyous greeting with me.

Hoosiergoody

Fyi. Christmas is a lot of things, but the date is not the date of Christ's birth, as anyone who's done their research should know - it was moved to coincide with what was then a pagan festival. It is a commercial holiday today - no doubt about that.

In any case, hope everyone had a good one.

[Karlifornia]

Maybe it's only me who thinks this way, but I get offended at the Honda commercials that take the song "We Wish you a Merry Christmas" and change it to "We Wish you a happy holidays". The song is "We Wish you a Merry Christmas". Period.

The line in the commercial is actually "We wish you a happy Honda days"

It's sad that I know this.

[cody8200]

Fyi. Christmas is a lot of things, but the date is not the date of Christ's birth, as anyone who's done their research should know - it was moved to coincide with what was then a pagan festival. It is a commercial holiday today - no doubt about that.

In any case, hope everyone had a good one.

Of course its not the actual date. The day is symbolic. Though it originally may have been picked for some other reason, it is now celebrated due to tradition. For Christians (which of course include catholics), the day represents Christ's birth, it is't the actual day of it.

[hoosiergoody]

Fyi. Christmas is a lot of things, but the date is not the date of Christ's birth, as anyone who's done their research should know - it was moved to coincide with what was then a pagan festival. It is a commercial holiday today - no doubt about that.

In any case, hope everyone had a good one.


I have done my research, and I am aware of this. Thank you for pointing it out though, as it does aide in the argument of commercialization/paganization of the holiday. I was also trying to point out that some of the "commercialization" started with the gift-giving that the wise men did.

Hope all had a merry Christmas and that all will have a Happy New Year.

[MrBigglesworth]

I was also trying to point out that some of the "commercialization" started with the gift-giving that the wise men did.
Gift giving was a tradition of the early Romans during Saturnalia, it did not start with the wise men.

[Dutch]

Gift giving was a tradition of the early Romans during Saturnalia, it did not start with the wise men.

Actually, if you were a true missionary of ill-will, you could go back further than the Romans.

[hoosiergoody]

That is funny, because all christian religions are considered to have branched from Catholicism. Bacially, Catholicism is the origination of Christianity. Lutherism and other non Catholic denominations all ultimately trace their roots back to Catholicism.

To add, all sects of christianity have differentiation in their beliefs, that is why they are different sects. But the grandfather of them all is Catholicism. To consider that it may not be Christian, is kinda funny.

Was Abraham catholic? Seems like catholicism doesn't go back quite that far... Just curious.

[hoosiergoody]

Gift giving was a tradition of the early Romans during Saturnalia, it did not start with the wise men.


To get really technical, gift-giving started with Cain and Abel. Presenting their sacrifice or gifts to God- Cain offering the fruits of the land, and Abel offering the requested animal sacrifice.

I could really stir things up by saying that the first gift given was Eve giving Adam the fruit to share in the garden of eden...

[st.cronin]

Was Abraham catholic? Seems like catholicism doesn't go back quite that far... Just curious.

If we are going to start correcting every misstatement or misconception in this thread, we will be very busy for a long time. Just keep in mind that most people who talk about religion don't know what they're talking about.

As for that particular question, if you were serious, here's a hint: The Catholic Church, for most of it's existence, conducted their masses in Latin.

[SFL Cat]

Yeah, it's the non-Christians who are the offended ones in this country. It is the atheists, Jews, and Muslims organizing boycotts for saying 'Happy Holidays' and going on their nationally telvised shows talking about the War on Hanukkah.

The persecution complex of Christians always amazes me.

Sorry, being fed to lions and used as human torches to entertain the heathens tend to make us that way.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Sorry, being fed to lions and used as human torches to entertain the heathens tend to make us that way.
Heh!!!!!

That's hillarious!

It's the old wounds, eh? 2,000+ years and such.

[SFL Cat]

Yes, in that particular instance I was speaking of Rome, but there are still a lot of places on this planet where it is very dangerous for a person to profess a belief in Christ.

This has been particularly true in Communist nations, where athiesm is the official government stance.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yes, in that particular instance I was speaking of Rome, but there are still a lot of places on this planet where it is very dangerous for a person to profess a belief in Christ.

This has been particularly true in Communist nations, where athiesm is the official government stance.
How about South Florida?

[SFL Cat]

Depends on where you live in South Florida. :)

[Jesse_Ewiak]

C'mon, you know how dangerous it is to be a Christian in South Carolina or Nebraska.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yes, in that particular instance I was speaking of Rome, but there are still a lot of places on this planet where it is very dangerous for a person to profess a belief in Christ.

This has been particularly true in Communist nations, where athiesm is the official government stance.
And people who profess a belief in Christ have made a lot of places on this planet very dangerous for people who don't. None of them are right, but there are very few religions that have a substantial following that have not or do not persecute those who do not believe.

If anything, I would think what happened in Rome or those other "very dangerous" places on this planet, would put things in perspective for Christians who live in America. To even imply that Christians are persecuted in America when compare it to actual occurences of persecution is silly.

[st.cronin]

And people who profess a belief in Christ have made a lot of places on this planet very dangerous for people who don't. None of them are right, but there are very few religions that have a substantial following that have not or do not persecute those who do not believe.


Buddhism

[Honolulu_Blue]

Buddhism
Yes. That would be an excellent example of one of the very few major religions that haven't/don't. Gotta love the Buddhists.

[st.cronin]

Yes. That would be an excellent example of one of the very few major religions that haven't/don't. Gotta love the Buddhists.

I would describe it as the only religion that has achieved primary status in a nation or empire that has not been accused of a single atrocity or of starting a war.

Judaism, as far as I can remember, has only in modern times achieved primary status in a nation. That nation has been accused of lots, but I think for the most part the religion itself escapes the blame.

[Easy Mac]

Yes. That would be an excellent example of one of the very few major religions that haven't/don't. Gotta love the Buddhists.
except Richard Gere, he persecutes gerbils.

[Easy Mac]

Sorry, being fed to lions and used as human torches to entertain the heathens tend to make us that way.
Reparations!!!! Reparations!!!!

Of course, that whole Salem witch thing never happened in America, let alone another country.

[hoosiergoody]

If we are going to start correcting every misstatement or misconception in this thread, we will be very busy for a long time. Just keep in mind that most people who talk about religion don't know what they're talking about.

As for that particular question, if you were serious, here's a hint: The Catholic Church, for most of it's existence, conducted their masses in Latin.

Wasn't planning on going that route- correcting things. Just throwing a little fuel out there. Sorry if that ruffled feathers- I will back it down.

Feliz Navidad!

[MrBigglesworth]

To get really technical, gift-giving started with Cain and Abel. Presenting their sacrifice or gifts to God- Cain offering the fruits of the land, and Abel offering the requested animal sacrifice.

I could really stir things up by saying that the first gift given was Eve giving Adam the fruit to share in the garden of eden...
I was talking about gift giving on the late December holiday, of course. It may go back further than the Romans, I have no idea what the Druids or whoever did for the solstice.

[Grammaticus]

If we are going to start correcting every misstatement or misconception in this thread, we will be very busy for a long time. Just keep in mind that most people who talk about religion don't know what they're talking about.

As for that particular question, if you were serious, here's a hint: The Catholic Church, for most of it's existence, conducted their masses in Latin.
Well, I certainly won’t say that I know it all or am immune to misconceptions. I can tell you that I define Christians as those who profess belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. That means that those who existed before Jesus, cannot be Christians. But it does not mean that Christians do not believe in the old testament, etc.

Since it is possible for anyone to have a personal definition of Christian, I do not mean to “correct” that. If you look at this subject from a historical perspective, Christianity is split from Judaism. The short of it is, the only reference to any organized church and the group that started calling themselves Christians shortly after the death of Christ, is catholic. This then split into Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church, then Protestantism, which continued to split.

If that is not how Christianity evolved, let me know what you think. Maybe I will learn something.

At the very least I will say that Catholics consider themselves to be Christians.

[Klinglerware]

Well, I certainly won’t say that I know it all or am immune to misconceptions. I can tell you that I define Christians as those who profess belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. That means that those who existed before Jesus, cannot be Christians. But it does not mean that Christians do not believe in the old testament, etc.

Since it is possible for anyone to have a personal definition of Christian, I do not mean to “correct” that. If you look at this subject from a historical perspective, Christianity is split from Judaism. The short of it is, the only reference to any organized church and the group that started calling themselves Christians shortly after the death of Christ, is catholic. This then split into Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church, then Protestantism, which continued to split.

If that is not how Christianity evolved, let me know what you think. Maybe I will learn something.

At the very least I will say that Catholics consider themselves to be Christians.


Very well said--a succinct overview of the evolution of Christianity. To add, Christianity was probably not very cohesive for the first few decades after the death of Christ, though obviously the church of Rome (present day Roman Catholic Church) eventually took the lead. The split between the Roman Catholic Church and the various eastern (Greek, Russian, etc) churches happened beginning in the 11th century. Protestantism emerged in the 1500s, also split off from the Roman Catholic church. I hadn't realized it before, but when I did a little research on the timelines I found that evangelical christianity (popularly associated with Christian conservative activism in the US) is a fairly recent phenomenon (emerged in the 1880s) and began as a home-grown American movement.

[Glengoyne]

Can I steal this line as my sig? I love it.Sure thing. Maybe we should trademark it?

It makes me wonder if G. Gordon Liddy has "Jack Booted Thugs" trademarked.



I've been away for the hollidays, but as soon as I hit the road I realized I should have added Christians to the list of people I offend and placed "Happy Hollidays" along with "Merry Christmas".

[clintl]

Merry Christmas. This is the time that we celebrate Christ's birth- that's why it is Christmas, not X-mas.

I'm guessing that you do not realize that Xmas has been a common abbreviation for Christmas since the 13th century, and that its origins come from the Greek letter chi (which looks like an X), which was used as a symbol for Christ. So Xmas is exactly equivalent to Christmas linguistically.

[Kodos]

I've been away for the hollidays, but as soon as I hit the road I realized I should have added Christians to the list of people I offend and placed "Happy Hollidays" along with "Merry Christmas".

Add good spellers to the list as well! :D

[Dutch]

I'm guessing that you do not realize that Xmas has been a common abbreviation for Christmas since the 13th century, and that its origins come from the Greek letter chi (which looks like an X), which was used as a symbol for Christ. So Xmas is exactly equivalent to Christmas linguistically.

I'd like to see you lay down that smack before one of shorty's gang fights.

[clintl]

Dola...

To answer the original question, I think that outside of government activities, the answer is no, non-Christians do not get offended by Christmas wishes and Christmas celebrations. I'm an agnostic, and I celebrate Christmas. I've worked with a number of non-Christians (mostly Jews and Muslims), and they always participated in the workplace celebrations. I think very few are offended when the government celebrates the secular Christmas traditions (i.e. lighting a Christmas tree). Where some start to get offended is when the government starts celebrating the religious traditions of Christmas (such as public display of a nativity scene). At that point, it gives the appearance of endorsing Christianity, to the exclusivity of other religions, some of which also have solstice-time holidays.

The other thing I would say is that I think "offended" is a loaded word that does not accurately convey the feelings of those opposed. I don't think people are really offended, as much as they think that government endorsement of any religion to the exclusivity of others (and let's be honest, this is exactly what the Christians making such a fuss over this want) is unconstitutional and promotes religious discrimination. And they're pretty strong evidence that this is true. All you have to do is read about how non-Christian children were ostracized if they didn't participate in classroom prayers, or how JFK's Catholicism was a big issue in the 1960 presidential campaign because some people were afraid he would be a puppet of the Pope.

As for ID theory, it simply is not science, has nothing to do with science (other than being a flat-out fraud being perpetrated by people who want science to be theology), and belongs in a philosophy class if it's taught at all. Being offended has nothing to do with the objections to it. There's simply no scientific evidence for it.

[hoosiergoody]

I'm guessing that you do not realize that Xmas has been a common abbreviation for Christmas since the 13th century, and that its origins come from the Greek letter chi (which looks like an X), which was used as a symbol for Christ. So Xmas is exactly equivalent to Christmas linguistically.


and you are guessing wrong. If you have been around many Christians today, they aren't "offended" in the use of x-mas, but they will state that it feels to them as if Christ is being left out of Christmas. Throughout the years that has been lost to many, and when they explain to their children the x vs. Christ, it is typically shared that the x is just a shortcut or a different way to take the focus off of the true meaning of the holiday (despite the fact that we also know that Jesus' birth wasn't truely 2005 years ago to the day... another one difficult to explain to a child).

Thanks for taking the time to bring that point out, as well as for adding your other post and detailing your thoughts.

[Dutch]

I don't think people are really offended, as much as they think that government endorsement of any religion to the exclusivity of others is unconstitutional and promotes religious discrimination.

Fair enough, but others contend that being a government employee does not reduce your rights as an American and government cannot probibit their right to freely excercise religious beliefs. It gets tricky when you are asking government to censor religion.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

To me, the choice is between common sense and majority rule. It shouldn't be between all or none.

[MrBigglesworth]

Who is asking government to censor religion?

[clintl]

Fair enough, but others contend that being a government employee does not reduce your rights as an American and government cannot probibit their right to freely excercise religious beliefs. It gets tricky when you are asking government to censor religion.

There is a huge difference between government employees expressing their religious beliefs as private citizens, and the government permitting the use of government property for public religious displays and messages. For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with the latter, as long as all religions have equal opportunity to create displays. That means Jews. That means Buddhists. That means Wiccans. That even means Satanists.

So, to be neutral, which the Constitution requires, you either do not allow religious displays on government property, or you allow religions that you find distasteful to display. I'm fine with either one.

To me, the choice is between common sense and majority rule. It shouldn't be between all or none.

The Establishment Clause exists to protect the minority from discrimination and repression from the majority. Something there is a long, long history of occurring whenever the opportunity arises.

[Grammaticus]

So, to be neutral, which the Constitution requires, you either do not allow religious displays on government property, or you allow religions that you find distasteful to display.

Where in the constitution does it say or imply that religious displays must be neutral?

The Establishment Clause exists to protect the minority from discrimination and repression from the majority. Something there is a long, long history of occurring whenever the opportunity arises.

How is having a nativity scene on town property discrimination?

[clintl]

Where in the constitution does it say or imply that religious displays must be neutral?

On an individual basis? It doesn't. What it requires is that the government be neutral in its dealings with people of all religious beliefs.

How is having a nativity scene on town property discrimination?

It's not, as long as you're willing to accept Hannukah displays, Wiccan solstice displays, Ramadan displays, Buddhist displays (whatever they might consist of, etc), Satanic displays, etc. However, if you're only going to have a nativity scene, and not also have displays honoring the religious traditions of the religious minorities in your town, or if your town government is going to pay for the nativity scene but not for the other religious displays, that absolutely is discrimination. The government in both of those cases is endorsing one religion over all others.