who is better Matt Leinart or Vince Young?

[jbmagic]

who is better Matt Leinart or Vince Young?

who will be the better Pro Quarterback?

[GrantDawg]

VY.

[DaddyTorgo]

young. he won the game where leinert clearly couldn't there in the last...2 minutes if you will.

[timmynausea]

Vince.

[Blade6119]

Better college, vince

Better pro, leinart

In the pros, vince wont be able to be as dominant a runner as he is here...flat out, the nfl is faster and almost 3 quarters of those runs would have been losses in the pros

[GrantDawg]

Better college, vince

Better pro, leinart

In the pros, vince wont be able to be as dominant a runner as he is here...flat out, the nfl is faster and almost 3 quarters of those runs would have been losses in the pros
He has a strong, accurate arm. He makes good reads. He big enough to take hits, and agile enough to make even NFL players miss. He is going to be a better pro than Leinart, and potentially the best QB in the NFL in a few years.

Leinart will be a decent starter, but not any where near as good as even Carson is going to be.

[Blade6119]

He has a strong, accurate arm. He makes good reads. He big enough to take hits, and agile enough to make even NFL players miss. He is going to be a better pro than Leinart, and potentially the best QB in the NFL in a few years.

Leinart will be a decent starter, but not any where near as good as even Carson is going to be.
Wow, i couldnt disagree more...He made nothing but short 5-7 yard passes this game...anything beyond 10 yards and he had troubles...i see a bust waiting to happen here...Texas gameplans to his strengths, which is great now...pro teams wont

[aran]

Better college, vince

Better pro, leinart

In the pros, vince wont be able to be as dominant a runner as he is here...flat out, the nfl is faster and almost 3 quarters of those runs would have been losses in the pros

...Did you see the reads he made throughout the game? Did you see how he simply picked USC apart on multiple drives, throwing the ball at will? His completion percentage was insane for most of the game.

He's a damn good runner, besides. If he works on his speed, he could be more dangerous than Vick.

[jbmagic]

can Matt Leinart handle the blitz in the NFL? he seems to have trouble with it.

[Blade6119]

...Did you see the reads he made throughout the game? Did you see how he simply picked USC apart on multiple drives, throwing the ball at will? His completion percentage was insane for most of the game.

He's a damn good runner, besides. If he works on his speed, he could be more dangerous than Vick.
I saw reads, on short passes...he was atrocious on long or even mid range balls..almost all his completions were under 10 yards, most 5-6...atrocious...He wont ever be better then Vick, and even that isnt much of a NFL success so far. Hes dangerous, but the falcons have yet to win big with him...

[Blade6119]

And ill say this, Brad Smith is a far better runner if you want to make those arguments..passer young is, but runner brad smith is better

[Young Drachma]

I was wondering this too, at which player would be a better NFL player. Leinart seems to have to have the NFL pedigree and I wonder if Young is the guy you want at QB when he's Vick without the arm. Smarter, I think. But Leinart will be given a chance to prove he can lead an NFL club and he seems to be pretty smart, though I wasn't that impressed with his last minute play where he shouldn't have been as distracted as he was with all the euphoria that Texas got after scoring late in the game.

[Mo.Raider]

Vince Young will be the better pro on raw physical tools alone. I don't think Matt Leinart has much more to offer than Matt Hasselbeck. No knock on Hasselbeck, just not earth moving.

[Craptacular]

...Did you see the reads he made throughout the game? Did you see how he simply picked USC apart on multiple drives, throwing the ball at will? His completion percentage was insane for most of the game. He picked them apart in 5-yard increments. Honestly, did he complete more than one pass that he threw further than 10 yards down the field? Give him credit for taking what USC gave him underneath, but he didn't do anything special through the air.

edit: I hadn't read Blade's posts before I posted this.

[GrantDawg]

He picked them apart in 5-yard increments. Honestly, did he complete more than one pass that he threw further than 10 yards down the field? Give him credit for taking what USC gave him underneath, but he didn't do anything special through the air.

He took exactly what the defense gave. That is exactly what you want a QB to do. He has hit many long passes, and carried the best passing eff. number in college football this year.

[jbmagic]

Vince Young will be a better passer than Vick is.

[Deattribution]

Better college, vince

Better pro, leinart

In the pros, vince wont be able to be as dominant a runner as he is here...flat out, the nfl is faster and almost 3 quarters of those runs would have been losses in the pros

Leinart can't even handle College ball pressure, he'll be ate alive in the NFL.

Leinart looks alot better with the amount of weapons he has too.

Young was singlehandledly amazing tonight.

[cthomer5000]

I think Leinart is a safer bet as a pro, while Young probably has a higher potential rating, and a higher volatility rating. (to put things in FOF terms).

That being said i would be estatic if the Jets could acquire Young at #4 overall.

[GrantDawg]

Vince Young will be a better passer than Vick is.

Yes he will. The funny thing is, he already does something that Vick never has been able to do (and he is getting critized for it). He can throw the short pass. Vick misses short passes because he can't put touch on the ball. Young throws hard, but can put touch on when needed.

[Craptacular]

He took exactly what the defense gave. That is exactly what you want a QB to do. He has hit many long passes, and carried the best passing eff. number in college football this year.
I gave him credit for taking what they gave him. I just pointed out that it was nothing spectacular.

[VPI97]

He big enough to take hits, and agile enough to make even NFL players miss.That's the only thing I wonder about...when he runs, he relies on creating broken tackles far more than a typical running quarterback. When he's in the NFL, will he still be able to shrug off hits when they're coming from men, rather than 19 year old boys?


Vince Young will be a better passer than Vick is.If he hangs on with a good QB coach, he may. But people don't remember that Vick was #2 in the nation in passing efficiency in 1999...setting a freshman record in the process. College passing efficiency doesn't exactly translate to being an effective passer in the NFL.

[GrantDawg]

I gave him credit for taking what they gave him. I just pointed out that it was nothing spectacular.

30 for 40? While rushing 200 yards? You watch football much?

[cmp]

Leinart won't have the same kind of weapons around him in the NFL and it will show.

[ISiddiqui]

I think Leinart is a safer bet as a pro, while Young probably has a higher potential rating, and a higher volatility rating. (to put things in FOF terms).I think that is spot on. I'm not understanding this hatred for Leinhart, saying he'll be a big bust and all. People said the same thing about Carson Palmer (it was the talent around him, etc) when he came out. I think Leinhart is as good as Palmer was when he came out.

Young has higher potential. It remains to be seen how Young deals with NFL speed in the context of his personal running game.

[Dutch]

I like Vince Young as the better College player based on what I just saw.

I wasn't impressed with Leinhart in the big game, but hey, Vinny Testerverde was is still playing 19 years after not being all that impressive against Penn State in the Fiesta Bowl of 1987. :)

[cthomer5000]

I like Vince Young as the better College player based on what I just saw.

I wasn't impressed with Leinhart in the big game, but hey, Vinny Testerverde was is still playing 19 years after not being all that impressive against Penn State in the Fiesta Bowl of 1987. :)
Vinny was still playing 19 years after not being all that impressive for the prior 18 years. http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/mad.gif

[DanGarion]

Leinart can't even handle College ball pressure, he'll be ate alive in the NFL.

Leinart looks alot better with the amount of weapons he has too.

Young was singlehandledly amazing tonight.
Did you even watch the 34 previous games? Or are you just basing this off of tonights?

Vince Young doesn't even play from over the center, he plays from the shotgun, lets see Vince run an NFL offense like Leinart has the past 3 seasons and then you'll see what pressure is.

[Craptacular]

30 for 40? While rushing 200 yards? You watch football much?http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Yes, I watched this game, and saw him throw dink after dink after dink after dink. Look at the play-by-play. I think he completed one pass over 10 yards that was not a dink-and-run. Obviously, his running ability won the game, but his passing was not anything spectacular.

[Blade6119]

30 for 40? While rushing 200 yards? You watch football much?
You watch the game? if i threw 40 screen passes i could complete most of them...young didnt make any tought throws i say...Any Qb could have made 99% of the throws he did that game

[GrantDawg]

That's the only thing I wonder about...when he runs, he relies on creating broken tackles far more than a typical running quarterback. When he's in the NFL, will he still be able to shrug off hits when they're coming from men, rather than 19 year old boys?
He won't be running in the NFL like a Vick. He looks to me like a very strong, agile pocket passer. McNair with better legs.

If he hangs on with a good QB coach, he may. But people don't remember that Vick was #2 in the nation in passing efficiency in 1999...setting a freshman record in the process. College passing efficiency doesn't exactly translate to being an effective passer in the NFL.

Vick only threw 152 passes that year, with 1840 yards. Compare that to 285 passes and 2769 yards.

BTW, Young also averaged 9.72 yards a completion. Sounds like he a few deep passes along the way. :)

[bronconick]

Question for USC fans/fans who have caught more USC football then me.

Does Leinert have the ability to complete a bullet pass? He's got great touch, but all his throws tonight remind me of Chris Leak, and floaters get picked at the next level. That would decide for me which one will be better in the pros.

[Deattribution]

This is hilarious, I'm not even a Texas fan - it's just fun to see all the USC crybabies.

[Deattribution]

Dola - and to clarify... if Bush had ran for 200+ yards tonight, and Leinart would of thrown for 200 or less yards no tds, maybe an INT.. he'd still be hailed for doing what it took to win, noone would complain about 'ooh waah he only threw screen passes' when in reality, Young three several passes 10-15 yards down the field.

[GrantDawg]

You watch the game? if i threw 40 screen passes i could complete most of them...young didnt make any tought throws i say...Any Qb could have made 99% of the throws he did that game
This game. A game he ran for 200 yards. Mediocre? I wish I had mediocre on my team. He took it, because that is what they gave him. He averaged 9.76 for the season, with many, many long passes. Your judging on one game. Look at what he has done all season.

[Grammaticus]

Young has the chance to be a top tier QB in the NFL. But he needs to follow more in the footsteps of Steve Young and Doug Williams, not Mike Vick. For a long career and qb success you have to follow these rules in order:

1. Don't get sacked
2. Throw the ball
3. Scramble, then throw the ball
4. If all else fails, run the ball

About the only time to break the rules are when you have an opportunity to hit a sure thing rushing TD.

Lots of guys run first and have brief exciting careers. But none of those guys are on anyone's legitimate top QB list.

[DanGarion]

Question for USC fans/fans who have caught more USC football then me.

Does Leinert have the ability to complete a bullet pass? He's got great touch, but all his throws tonight remind me of Chris Leak, and floaters get picked at the next level. That would decide for me which one will be better in the pros.
Did you see the bullet he threw to Jarret? He makes about 4-5 a game like that normally.

[Blade6119]

Im a USC crybaby for thinking young wont be a star? I was born and raised in Big-12 country and still think its the best conference. Young won this game and is the better college QB. I still feel leinart will be a better pro. Hes like brady, where young is like vick...who has been the better pro of those two i ask...dont accuse people of things that arent true

[Blade6119]

This game. A game he ran for 200 yards. Mediocre? I wish I had mediocre on my team. He took it, because that is what they gave him. He averaged 9.76 for the season, with many, many long passes. Your judging on one game. Look at what he has done all season.

i watched all season, and got to attend two of his games...how many did you attend? :confused: :confused:

[DanGarion]

Young has the chance to be a top tier QB in the NFL. But he needs to follow more in the footsteps of Steve Young and Doug Williams, not Mike Vick. For a long career and qb success you have to follow these rules in order:

1. Don't get sacked
2. Throw the ball
3. Scramble, then throw the ball
4. If all else fails, run the ball

About the only time to break the rules are when you have an opportunity to hit a sure thing rushing TD.

Lots of guys run first and have brief exciting careers. But none of those guys are on anyone's legitimate top QB list.

You are exactly right. Young looked great, but a lot of me feels it was the USC defense that gave much of the game to him. None of the playmakers on defense did anything all night, and the DBs didn't even show up to the game.

[Deattribution]

Im a USC crybaby for thinking young wont be a star? I was born and raised in Big-12 country and still think its the best conference. Young won this game and is the better college QB. I still feel leinart will be a better pro. Hes like brady, where young is like vick...who has been the better pro of those two i ask...dont accuse people of things that arent true

My point being, if Leinart had the same ability to do the same thing, he'd be getting accolades for doing what it takes to win, being a leader and USC fans talking about how his leadership and clutch skills are going to translate into NFL success.

[cartman]

You already know my answer, I just wanted to have the last response in the top 5 threads.

:D

[DanGarion]

My point being, if Leinart had the same ability to do the same thing, he'd be getting accolades for doing what it takes to win, being a leader and USC fans talking about how his leadership and clutch skills are going to translate into NFL success.
But Leinart does have the ability and people have been giving him accolades for quite some time for being a leader and clutch, so... what's your point?

[Blade6119]

My point being, if Leinart had the same ability to do the same thing, he'd be getting accolades for doing what it takes to win, being a leader and USC fans talking about how his leadership and clutch skills are going to translate into NFL success.
I think its proven outside of this game he did...i dont like how he handled that last play, as a FG would have tied it and he had time to get it off so time would be left. I personally feel it was more USC's defense then young...USC hadnt faced a running QB like young all year, and on run plays it seemed more like USC couldnt stop the run then young being amazing...just my opinion, but take what you will. Just remember USC's defense isnt the best around, as evidenced by all the teams that picked it apart this year(quite a few)

[GrantDawg]

Young has the chance to be a top tier QB in the NFL. But he needs to follow more in the footsteps of Steve Young and Doug Williams, not Mike Vick. For a long career and qb success you have to follow these rules in order:

1. Don't get sacked
2. Throw the ball
3. Scramble, then throw the ball
4. If all else fails, run the ball

About the only time to break the rules are when you have an opportunity to hit a sure thing rushing TD.

Lots of guys run first and have brief exciting careers. But none of those guys are on anyone's legitimate top QB list.

He threw nearly twice as many passes this year than Vick ever did in college. Heck, he nearly has many passes and yards as Vick had in his whole college career just this year. Plus, he has more passing TD in this year than Vick did have in two. I wouldn't compare him to Vick. (Though he also had more rushing yards than Vick ever had in one year. Goodness, he had a great year)

[Blade6119]

He threw nearly twice as many passes this year than Vick ever did in college. Heck, he nearly has many passes and yards as Vick had in his whole college career just this year. Plus, he has more passing TD in this year than Vick did have in two. I wouldn't compare him to Vick. (Though he also had more rushing yards than Vick ever had in one year. Goodness, he had a great year)
As a junior...Vick never made it to his junior year...so really compare young last year and it is a whole different story

[GrantDawg]

i watched all season, and got to attend two of his games...how many did you attend? :confused: :confused:
He didn't throw long balls all year? what about the 75 yard pass? 65 yards? Are you really trying to say he never throws anything but screens? And yet still averaged 9.76 yards a pass? Those are some screens.

[Deattribution]

But Leinart does have the ability and people have been giving him accolades for quite some time for being a leader and clutch, so... what's your point?

And that makes him Brady-like in your eyes...

While clutch and leadership skills make Young Vick-like....

....okay... no bias there.

[GrantDawg]

As a junior...Vick never made it to his junior year...so really compare young last year and it is a whole different story
So? Vick still has never thrown as many passes over the same number of games as Young. Young does throw the ball. Vick holds the ball way too much.

[Grammaticus]

He threw nearly twice as many passes this year than Vick ever did in college. Heck, he nearly has many passes and yards as Vick had in his whole college career just this year. Plus, he has more passing TD in this year than Vick did have in two. I wouldn't compare him to Vick. (Though he also had more rushing yards than Vick ever had in one year. Goodness, he had a great year)
I agree, he was an increadible college QB. I'm talking about when he steps up to the NFL. He can be much better than Vick in the NFL and has already been better at the college level. I just think if he tries to keep the same style and pace in the NFL, he will get hurt or basically have a shorter career. And that passing efficiency has to convert to the NFL and that is tough for the best of the best. I hope he does well.

[Craptacular]

Let me sum up a few things before I go to bed:

I hope no one is mistaking me for a USC crybaby. I dislike USC.

I responded to aran's post that I quoted above. In this particular game, Vince Young's passing was nothing spectacular. He took what USC gave him. He did nothing in this game to show me he would be a great NFL passer. I haven't seen enough of his other games to make other judgements.

[DanGarion]

And that makes him Brady-like in your eyes...

While clutch and leadership skills make Young Vick-like....

....okay... no bias there.
No Young impressed me very much, but he isn't familiar with running an NFL offense. Also I think comparing him to Vick, who really hasn't been that impressive in the NFL is a farce, he looks like he could be much better with his passing game, as long as he can play from behind the center instead of the shotgun, and his throwing motion isn't picked apart.

[GrantDawg]

I agree, he was an increadible college QB. I'm talking about when he steps up to the NFL. He can be much better than Vick in the NFL and has already been better at the college level. I just think if he tries to keep the same style and pace in the NFL, he will get hurt or basically have a shorter career. And that passing efficiency has to convert to the NFL and that is tough for the best of the best. I hope he does well.
My point was he is already more of a passer than Vick. I also saw twice as many quick reads and releases in just this game than I've seen in watching 4 years of Vick. That says alot.

[cartman]

I think it is funny that MrKordell is viewing this thread.

:D

[Karlifornia]

They are both great QB's with completely different games. It is really an apples and oranges situation.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say Leinart has a better chance of being a good NFL QB, but who knows?

[Antmeister]

Let me sum up a few things before I go to bed:

I hope no one is mistaking me for a USC crybaby. I dislike USC.

I responded to aran's post that I quoted above. In this particular game, Vince Young's passing was nothing spectacular. He took what USC gave him. He did nothing in this game to show me he would be a great NFL passer. I haven't seen enough of his other games to make other judgements.

I hear you, but you are saying that his short game was nothing spectacular. I don't get it. You take what the defense gives you and win the game. I didn't think it hurt Joe Montana all that much as he did the same thing for years in the pros. Short passing game has nothing to do with whether he is going to be successful in the NFL. He basically has to have the right coach, be in the right system (possibly a West Coast variant) and hopefully have at least a mediocre offensive line. The same can be said for Matt Leinhart.

But to say that Vince Young is only a good college quarterback and nothing more is crazy to me. The team gave their heart out for this guy on every frickin play and believed that he could help bring them back and he showed that he could. Guy has a ton on leadership and I am sold that he will be way better than a number of quarterbacks in the NFL

[biological warrior]

I hear you, but you are saying that his short game was nothing spectaular. I don't get it. You take what the defense gives you and win the game. I didn't think it hurt Joe Montana all that much as he did the same thing for years in the pros. Short passing game has nothing to do with whether he is going to be successful in the NFL. He basically has to have the right coach, be in the right system (possibly a West Coast variant) and hopefully have at least a mediocre offensive line. The same can be said for Matt Leinhart.

But to say that Vince Young is only a good college quarterback and nothing more is crazy to me. The team gave their heart out for this guy on every frickin play and believed that he could help bring them back and he showed that he could. Guy has a ton on leadership and I am sold that he will be way better a number of quarterback in the NFL I tell you right now he is The Real Deal.

[Huckleberry]

And ill say this, Brad Smith is a far better runner if you want to make those arguments..passer young is, but runner brad smith is better
That could be one of the worst football takes I've ever seen. And this is coming from a Longhorn fan that loves Brad Smith as a player.

[mtolson]

But to say that Vince Young is only a good college quarterback and nothing more is crazy to me. The team gave their heart out for this guy on every frickin play and believed that he could help bring them back and he showed that he could. Guy has a ton on leadership and I am sold that he will be way better than a number of quarterbacks in the NFL

But what does this have to do with transfering his skills to the pro. Gino Torretta, Andre Ware and David Klingler were all great college quaterbacks whose talents didn't translate well to the NFL. Young's bad throwing mechanics will be exposed by bigger and faster defenses. His performance today was excellent, but I have to say USC defense played a huge part in that. Almost every pass he completed was to receiver that were beyond wide open, and 95 percent of his runs were due to poor tackling, which will not happen in the NFL. Vy is a great college QB, but I don't think he will be able to perform that well in the pros. I think he will get drafted high, but end up being someones pet project.

[Sublime 2]

Now i've only read a few posts throughout but......

4/6 of the guys i was with said they would pick Young before Leinart (just including QBs, with overall Bush going #1 overall). But based on the other posts I've read it seems everyone agrees (again i've looked at a <25% of the post in this thread) that Leinart will go before Young, if in the same year.

Now I'm young (20), but to ME Young looked better than Vick did in his bowl games. Better arm, stronger, and better vision, maybe not better speed or moves but seemed in control of his game. Most definetly, (nothing against Vick at all but) I would think Young has a better NFL career than Vick......I am also a complete jackass lol.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I noticed that Young side-arms the ball a little, but I don't think that's necessarily a problem -- it's never gotten in the way of Drew Bledsoe's career, e.g. (rather, Bledsoe's decision-making under pressure has gotten in the way of Bledsoe's career).

[Sublime 2]

I noticed that Young side-arms the ball a little, but I don't think that's necessarily a problem -- it's never gotten in the way of Drew Bledsoe's career, e.g. (rather, Bledsoe's decision-making under pressure has gotten in the way of Bledsoe's career).


I see Bledsoe in VY a lot!! I'm a Pats fan but you add a lot of movement to Bledsoe's game and I believe you have VY in a second!



edited to add - "a lot of movement" to "some movement"

[Vegas Vic]

Yes he will. The funny thing is, he already does something that Vick never has been able to do (and he is getting critized for it). He can throw the short pass. Vick misses short passes because he can't put touch on the ball. Young throws hard, but can put touch on when needed.

I'm going to fess up here. As a Sooner fan, I used to make fun of Vince because of his awkward throwing motion, and I was duped into thinking that he was a running back at the QB position. But the guy is completing almost 70% of his passes, and he leads the NCAA in passing efficiency. This guy is the real deal, and I sincerely hope that he goes to the NFL, so that my Sooners can get back to winning Big XII Championships.

[Ben E Lou]

The Young/Vick comparisons just don't make sense. They are very different players. Vick is much quicker, but will never run over a DB for a TD like Young did last night. Young is MUCH bigger and stronger, but will never have the moves that Vick does. Vick has a very strong arm that may never be accurate. Young is a touch guy that may never throw the 20-yard out. The very fact that they are compared is a bit disturbing, if you ask me.

Addendum: I just heard a snippet of VY. "It's comin' awl da way to AWSTIN, TEXAS, baby!" GOOD stuff! I like this kid.

[Raiders Army]

Booty.

[Samdari]

he's Vick without the arm.

Not only did he improve more as a passer this year than Vick has in 5 years as a pro, he's a better passer right now than Vick is. Make him the second most dangerous dangerous runner in the league at QB, and you've truly got a QB who can hurt you with both the run and the pass, something Atlanta will never have (nor apparently wants, based on the comments of their head coach) with Vick.

[Ryche]

The thing that impressed me most about Young tonight was how quick his release was. He'd be running with the ball, then suddenly would see someone open and *boom* the ball was gone.

I think when it comes draft time, the relative lack of arm strength for Leinart may hurt him. The Longhorns seemed to be getting to a lot of his passes.

[Bee]

I think Young's sidearm passing and low release will hurt him in the NFL (unless he changes his throwing motion). I was most impressed with his ability to move and avoid the pass rush. I'm not sure how well he can throw the medium to deep ball since he didn't do much of that in the games I saw. If he can accurately throw the deep ball and adjusts his throwing motion, I think he could be another Donovan McNabb (in his prime).

[Vegas Vic]

The Young/Vick comparisons just don't make sense. They are very different players. Vick is much quicker, but will never run over a DB for a TD like Young did last night. Young is MUCH bigger and stronger, but will never have the moves that Vick does. Vick has a very strong arm that may never be accurate. Young is a touch guy that may never throw the 20-yard out. The very fact that they are compared is a bit disturbing, if you ask me.

Addendum: I just heard a snippet of VY. "It's comin' awl da way to AWSTIN, TEXAS, baby!" GOOD stuff! I like this kid.

Ben, I'm going to assume that you haven't seen a great deal of VY, being in SEC country. He is deceptively quick. He might not look so because of his size, but somehow the game slows down around him. It's uncanny, as I've seen numerous occasions where I think that the defense has position and an easy tackle, and Vince just pulls away while the defenders appear to be moving in slow motion. It just looks so easy, almost like the defense is in a constant lazy state. I've never seen anything like it.

[Ben E Lou]

Ben, I'm going to assume that you haven't seen a great deal of VY, being in SEC country. He is deceptively quick. He might not look so because of his size, but somehow the game slows down around him. It's uncanny, as I've seen numerous occasions where I think that the defense has position and an easy tackle, and Vince just pulls away while the defenders appear to be moving in slow motion. It just looks so easy, almost like the defense is in a constant lazy state. I've never seen anything like it.Oh, he's quick, make no mistake, but I don't seem him in the same category as Vick, quickness-wise. He doesn't have that sick stop-start-change-directions kind of quickness that Vick has. Young is deceptively *fast*, to be sure, probably in the same category as Vick in the 40, but I'm fairly certain Vick would distance himself athletically in the shuttle run. A guy with Young's height who can stride can definitely pull away from defenders, and he has the athletic ability to make the good single-move. Vick's got that two-or-three moves thing goin' on, though.

[Butter]

USC gave up 52 points to Fresno State. Let's all calm the frick down about VY in the NFL.

Probably the best pressure performance by a college QB ever... but that will mean nothing when he's playing on a 2-6 team against a 2-6 Texans team in the NFL. Where's that leadership going to get him then? He's more than capable of totally disappearing for long stretches of time in games that are less than meaningful (witness - Okie St. takes a 28-6 lead or some such earlier this year before VY leads TX back).

[Ryche]

I look at Leinart and wonder if he has the mental makeup to make to become a good NFL quarterback. He has not experienced very much adversity at all in college. Why did he not come out last year? He had won a national championship and a Heismann in college. His degree was essentially finished (ballroom dancing?). He would have been the top pick and stayed in California. But he stayed put because he was basically king of LA and knew he would be for another year.

How is he going to handle struggling on a bad NFL team for his first couple years, without the same level of talent surrounding him?

Actually, I think Jay Cutler will end up better than either. But I watch a lot less college football than a lot of people here so *shrug*

[Bee]

Actually, I think Jay Cutler will end up better than either.

I think this is very possible. I've seen Cutler several times and I think he has the potential to be a franchise QB in the NFL.

[Butter]

The only times I saw Cutler this year he was running for his life and throwing up prayers off his back foot. But then, he did lead Vandy to the win at Tennessee. Not much of a win this year, but it was big for Vandy. I would like to see him on an actual team with time to throw and see what he looks like. I've heard the Cutler talk for a while, but watching him play in college a few times I never saw what the hype was about.

[scooper]

Leinart is extremely talented. Ryan Leaf had talent , but not the makeup of a great or even good QB. Leinart's attitude has always sort of struck me as a bit off but I couldn't put my finger on what was wrong. Some of his comments last night were awfully Leafish.

He may succeed-he has the skills to do so. But I suspect Young may have more intangibles while no slouch in skills department himself.

[Bee]

Leinart reminds me a lot of Bledsoe coming out, but not as strong an arm.

[DanGarion]

Leinart is extremely talented. Ryan Leaf had talent , but not the makeup of a great or even good QB. Leinart's attitude has always sort of struck me as a bit off but I couldn't put my finger on what was wrong. Some of his comments last night were awfully Leafish.

He may succeed-he has the skills to do so. But I suspect Young may have more intangibles while no slouch in skills department himself.
I think it's moreso that Leinart feels bad that he let his teamates down. He's the leader on the Trojans and it was his responsibility to win the game. Comparing the attitude of Leaf and Leinart is ridiculous, I'm a Charger fan and a Trojan fan, I've seen then both and they are nothing alike.

[Eaglesfan27]

I think Leinart is a safer bet as a pro, while Young probably has a higher potential rating, and a higher volatility rating. (to put things in FOF terms).

That being said i would be estatic if the Jets could acquire Young at #4 overall.
I think this says it perfectly, however I don't think Young will last to #4. I think Leinart is the safer bet, but I think Vince will go first in the draft. Vince made some great touch throws last night. I can't believe people are knocking him in this thread. He almost singlehandedly won that game last night.

However, I can't believe people are tearing down Matt. Yes, Matt has some great weapons around him. So does Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer. Most Pro Qb's need some very good weapons around them to be truly successful. There are very few exceptions. Even the Golden Boy Elway didn't win a SB until he had a great RB behind him. If Matt is given enough weapons, I'm sure that he can be successful enough to win a SB. Also, I found the comparision to Matt Hasselback interesting. That isn't a bad comparision, and Matt has a legitimate chance of going to the SB this year, so it's not a bad thing to be compared to him.

[scooper]

I think it's moreso that Leinart feels bad that he let his teamates down. He's the leader on the Trojans and it was his responsibility to win the game. Comparing the attitude of Leaf and Leinart is ridiculous, I'm a Charger fan and a Trojan fan, I've seen then both and they are nothing alike.
He didn't say anything about letting his team down. He said the offense did all they can do outside of Reggie's fumble. That sounds like throwing the defense under the bus to me and maybe Bush as well. He also publically disagreed with Carrol's decision to go for the fourth down. He may be right, but you don't publically question your coach. His assertion that they are still the better team wasn't a huge deal, but it comes off a bit whiny.

[Samdari]

The only times I saw Cutler this year he was running for his life and throwing up prayers off his back foot.

He's a lock for Green Bay then!

[DanGarion]

He didn't say anything about letting his team down. He said the offense did all they can do outside of Reggie's fumble. That sounds like throwing the defense under the bus to me and maybe Bush as well. He also publically disagreed with Carrol's decision to go for the fourth down. He may be right, but you don't publically question your coach. His assertion that they are still the better team wasn't a huge deal, but it comes off a bit whiny.
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1008476#post1008476

And also I did not say he said he let his team down. This is a guy that has been the leader for the last 34 games. I'm sure he felt terrible that he couldn't do enough to win it for the guys he stayed to play with. Trust me, this isn't just some punk, he's a good guy, who cares a lot about the guys he plays with.

[Anthony]

isn't safer to say Young is closer to McNabb or Culpepper, than to a running back (Vick)?

[RendeR]

Neither one of these two are going to be stars in the NFL, Leinart doesn't have the arm strength to make the big throws at the pro level and Young is little more than a dunker that can run through college tacklers.

Leinart will be a backup at best and Young will probably be drafted as a safety.

[Daimyo]

Vince Young had one of the best college performances I've ever seen last night, but at the same time he didn't show anything that makes me think he'll be a good NFL quarterback. Frankly I have serious doubts that he can make all the throws required in the NFL with his delivery and so much of his rushing came on called runs against a defense much smaller and slower than what he'd see in the NFL.

As someone pointed out, while Young and VIck are both athletic, "running" quarterbacks they are entirely different... Young's athletic ability may translate more like McNair or Roethlisberger in that he seems to have the ability to avoid the pass rush in the pocket by making one or two steps away from the rusher and/or break a tackle and still make a pass.... I just don't see him rushing for a ton of yards in the NFL because he's not going to run over guys and gets yards after the first hit like he did last night.

Now I'm not saying he'll be a bust... its possible that he was just taking what USC gave him and has demonstrated NFL-quality ability throughout the season. There was just nothing he showed last night that will translate into success at the NFL level IMO.

[DanGarion]

Neither one of these two are going to be stars in the NFL, Leinart doesn't have the arm strength to make the big throws at the pro level and Young is little more than a dunker that can run through college tacklers.

Leinart will be a backup at best and Young will probably be drafted as a safety.
Matt Leinart makes better throws then Carson Palmer did his entire time at USC. I'm a big fan of them both since I'm a huge USC fan, but Palmer never lived up to his potential till his final year at USC, while Leinart came out kicking from the start. His arm is strong enought to make all the throws in the NFL and he's been a leader. Where he excells is his smart play, he sees the defense and is able to adjust, this could prove to be very Peytonlike once he gets to the NFL.

[Daimyo]

Oh, he's quick, make no mistake, but I don't seem him in the same category as Vick, quickness-wise. He doesn't have that sick stop-start-change-directions kind of quickness that Vick has. Young is deceptively *fast*, to be sure, probably in the same category as Vick in the 40, but I'm fairly certain Vick would distance himself athletically in the shuttle run. A guy with Young's height who can stride can definitely pull away from defenders, and he has the athletic ability to make the good single-move. Vick's got that two-or-three moves thing goin' on, though.
Right. Vick has the pretty amazing ability to drop back on a called pass, have two DL get through the OL for a sure sack only to have Vick put on two or three moves to get around both of them (and the safety or LB coming around to help) and then outrun everybody for 20+ yards. In the same situation Young seems to have the ability to avoid the guys just enough to buy an extra second to maybe give himself the chance to throw a pass. Both are extremely useful skill, but they're totally different players IMO.

[WSUCougar]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but running 90% of your offense's plays out of the same set with the crossbuck fake to the running back works at the college level, but not at the pro level. I don't know how much drop back passing Vince has ever done, but if he can't do it in the NFL he can't thrive there (IMO). He is an awesome physical talent, but lots of questions remain.

Leinart is a much more traditional, viable NFL QB. My two cents, anyway.

[JeeberD]

Young will probably be drafted as a safety.

Ren's still drunk from last night, apparently...

[RendeR]

Matt Leinart makes better throws then Carson Palmer did his entire time at USC. I'm a big fan of them both since I'm a huge USC fan, but Palmer never lived up to his potential till his final year at USC, while Leinart came out kicking from the start. His arm is strong enought to make all the throws in the NFL and he's been a leader. Where he excells is his smart play, he sees the defense and is able to adjust, this could prove to be very Peytonlike once he gets to the NFL.
Wow, how soon we forget...

Palmer had exactly 2 seasons under what many consider the best Offensive coordinator in the game right now, leinert had him for 3 and is in the same system even after he left to go to Tennessee last season. Palmer did more in less time with less surrounding talent than Leinert could have hoped to.

Leinert is no Carson Palmer and if you think Matt is even close to the same, let alone BETTER, then you don't know much about Quarterbacking talent overall. Leinert did great things with unbelievable talent around him on offense, Carson did those same things with less than half the talent with less time to learn and understand the offense.

Leinert is a wannabe and will never pan out as an NFL Starter, IMHO.

[DanGarion]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but running 90% of your offense's plays out of the same set with the crossbuck fake to the running back works at the college level, but not at the pro level. I don't know how much drop back passing Vince has ever done, but if he can't do it in the NFL he can't thrive there (IMO). He is an awesome physical talent, but lots of questions remain.

Leinart is a much more traditional, viable NFL QB. My two cents, anyway.
Exactly, Young isn't familar with playing from behind the center, he's only played from the Shotgun (from what I saw last night).

[RendeR]

Ren's still drunk from last night, apparently...
Actually Jeebs I took that comment straight from an NFL network analyst. not my original thought at all.

[cartman]

The funny thing is, many people were making these exact same statements about VY when he came out of high school: that he'd never be a good quarterback, you'd be better off making him a DB or a wide receiver. He's made a pretty good career so far out of proving his critics wrong.

[DanGarion]

Wow, how soon we forget...

Palmer had exactly 2 seasons under what many consider the best Offensive coordinator in the game right now, leinert had him for 3 and is in the same system even after he left to go to Tennessee last season. Palmer did more in less time with less surrounding talent than Leinert could have hoped to.

Leinert is no Carson Palmer and if you think Matt is even close to the same, let alone BETTER, then you don't know much about Quarterbacking talent overall. Leinert did great things with unbelievable talent around him on offense, Carson did those same things with less than half the talent with less time to learn and understand the offense.

Leinert is a wannabe and will never pan out as an NFL Starter, IMHO.
Come on, Palmer never lived up to his potential till his final season.

Career Statistics
PA PC PI PCT YDS TD LG
1998 (Fr.).. 235 130 6 .553 1755 7 66
1999 (So.).. 53 39 3 .736 490 3 32
2000 (So.).. 415 228 18 .549 2914 16 61
2001 (Jr.).. 377 221 12 .586 2717 13 93
2002 (Sr.).. 489 309 10 .632 3942 33 65
CAREER.. 1569 927 49 .591 11818 72 93

[RendeR]

Come on, Palmer never lived up to his potential till his final season.

Career Statistics
PA PC PI PCT YDS TD LG
1998 (Fr.).. 235 130 6 .553 1755 7 66
1999 (So.).. 53 39 3 .736 490 3 32
2000 (So.).. 415 228 18 .549 2914 16 61
2001 (Jr.).. 377 221 12 .586 2717 13 93
2002 (Sr.).. 489 309 10 .632 3942 33 65
CAREER.. 1569 927 49 .591 11818 72 93

Yer right, and why was that? three differen't shitty O-coordinators in his first 3 seasons, a good one comes in, he takes a year to get comfortable and then blows the nation away as a Senior.

no shit he only hd one great year. This is why I think Leinert is a wannabe, he's had FIVE in that system with FAR better talent around him and hasn't looked as good as Palmer did in that one year.

Sheesh.

[DanGarion]

Yer right, and why was that? three differen't shitty O-coordinators in his first 3 seasons, a good one comes in, he takes a year to get comfortable and then blows the nation away as a Senior.

no shit he only hd one great year. This is why I think Leinert is a wannabe, he's had FIVE in that system with FAR better talent around him and hasn't looked as good as Palmer did in that one year.

Sheesh.
Calm down, I love Palmer he's a stud, but Leinart was better in college. But yeah more yards, more touchdowns, better passing percentage... Leinart is a bench warmer in the NFL... :rolleyes:

[st.cronin]

It will be great fun to look back at this thread in five years. My own take is that if I were in charge of an nfl team,

Palmer > Leinart > Young > Vick

Had Leinart come out last year, he would have been the consensus #1 pick, but he stayed in school, stayed healthy, and had an awesome year. I think he'll be terrific in the nfl.

[GrantDawg]

It will be great fun to look back at this thread in five years. My own take is that if I were in charge of an nfl team,

Palmer > Leinart > Young > Vick

Had Leinart come out last year, he would have been the consensus #1 pick, but he stayed in school, stayed healthy, and had an awesome year. I think he'll be terrific in the nfl.

Here is mine:

Young > Palmer > Vick > Leinart

[Butter]

Here is mine:

Young > Palmer

Ooh! Let me try one:

GrantDawg <> sane

[rkmsuf]

Calm down, I love Palmer he's a stud, but Leinart was better in college. But yeah more yards, more touchdowns, better passing percentage... Leinart is a bench warmer in the NFL... :rolleyes:

Palmer was a much better pro prospect. I would doubt Leinart is ever the better pro.

[Craptacular]

Wow, how soon we forget...

Palmer had exactly 2 seasons under what many consider the best Offensive coordinator in the game right now, leinert had him for 3 and is in the same system even after he left to go to Tennessee last season. Palmer did more in less time with less surrounding talent than Leinert could have hoped to. Palmer was an average to below average QB his first three years. His one good year came throwing to Mike Williams and Keary Colbert, who I seem to remember possessing a lot of talent. Yes, Palmer had less talent around him, but he wasn't playing with chopped liver. Leinart came in as a starter after Carson left and produced a better season, and he has certainly backed it up in the last two years. I don't see how Carson did MORE with less.

[RendeR]

Palmer was an average to below average QB his first three years. His one good year came throwing to Mike Williams and Keary Colbert, who I seem to remember possessing a lot of talent. Yes, Palmer had less talent around him, but he wasn't playing with chopped liver. Leinart came in as a starter after Carson left and produced a better season, and he has certainly backed it up in the last two years. I don't see how Carson did MORE with less.
I think you're choosing to be ignorant then.

lets see, palmer had....who to run the ball? yeah, no one. he had how many quality receivers? Williams, yes, 1 whoot, such a bounty!

Who has leinert had running the ball? White AND Bush...not just one stud RB but two. Makes his job a shit-ton easier. Who has he had to throw to? not only two solid receivers but BUSH when he splits out and a damn good tight end as well.

Palmer doing more with less? Damn straight. Palmer won a national Championship by pulling his teamates playing level up with him and carrying his team. Leinert? he managed the game and made some great plays. he also made a lot more errors (Texas game anyone? He was awful, even with the big numbers)

Leinert will play in the NFL but he'll never be a stud/Franchise QB that people would have you think he will.

[Craptacular]

I hear you, but you are saying that his short game was nothing spectacular. I don't get it. You take what the defense gives you and win the game. I didn't think it hurt Joe Montana all that much as he did the same thing for years in the pros. Short passing game has nothing to do with whether he is going to be successful in the NFL. He basically has to have the right coach, be in the right system (possibly a West Coast variant) and hopefully have at least a mediocre offensive line. The same can be said for Matt Leinhart.

But to say that Vince Young is only a good college quarterback and nothing more is crazy to me. The team gave their heart out for this guy on every frickin play and believed that he could help bring them back and he showed that he could. Guy has a ton on leadership and I am sold that he will be way better than a number of quarterbacks in the NFL
I haven't said anything about Vince being only a good QB, being a poor leader, or anything of the sort. He played a hell of a game, and did what it took to win. USC did not make the adjustments necessary to force him to beat them passing. He looked like he was passing for the Bears from the previous couple of years. Nothing in this game showed me that he could scare an NFL team with his passing. Some people are making it sound like this game proved Vince will be a great NFL QB. He is an extraordinary athlete and competitor, and he may end up being a fine NFL QB. However, this game showed me nothing about how he'd beat an NFL team by passing.

[Havok]

young will probally bust..... ugly release, ugly form and plays the game like he's playing flag football. He will get MURDERED in the pros playing like that. But he is a freaking amazing college QB and that was an amazing preformance. Did anyone see how completely wide open his recievers/RB's/TE's were??? USC's defense should be ashamed of themselves.

Funny how everyone watches one game and all the sudden everyone is going apeshit over him. Wait until the scouts get a hold of him during the combine and watch his stock drop.

I'd take Leinart or that Vanderbilt guy(Jay whatever) over Vince in a second.

[GrantDawg]

I haven't said anything about Vince being only a good QB, being a poor leader, or anything of the sort. He played a hell of a game, and did what it took to win. USC did not make the adjustments necessary to force him to beat them passing. He looked like he was passing for the Bears from the previous couple of years. Nothing in this game showed me that he could scare an NFL team with his passing. Some people are making it sound like this game proved Vince will be a great NFL QB. He is an extraordinary athlete and competitor, and he may end up being a fine NFL QB. However, this game showed me nothing about how he'd beat an NFL team by passing.

No, this game does not. What he has done this whole season along with his abilities, size and talent shows he's got true potential to be a great qb. You are stuck on one game and ignoring many other factors.

[Craptacular]

I think you're choosing to be ignorant then.
...
Palmer doing more with less? Damn straight. Palmer won a national Championship by pulling his teamates playing level up with him and carrying his team.
What National Championship did Palmer win?

[GrantDawg]

young will probally bust..... ugly release, ugly form and plays the game like he's playing flag football. He will get MUDERED in the pros playing like that. But he is a freaking amazing college QB and that was an amazing preformance. Did anyone see how completely wide open his recievers/RB's/TE's were??? USC's defense should be ashamed of themselves.

Funny how everyone watches one game and all the sudden everyone is going apeshit over him. Wait until the scouts get a hold of him during the combine and watch his stock drop.

I'd take Leinart or that Vanderbilt guy(Jay whatever) over Vince in a second.
Again, jump to conclusions that people are high on him just after this one game. How many other games of his have you watched? Maybe the Ohio State game? Have you even watched Cutler play?

[Craptacular]

No, this game does not. What he has done this whole season along with his abilities, size and talent shows he's got true potential to be a great qb. You are stuck on one game and ignoring many other factors.
GrantDawg, please actually read my posts. I am trying to make clear that my observations have been based on this one game. My original post in this thread was in response to a statement about VY's performance in this game. I admitted that I haven't seen enough of his other games (being in Big 10 country does that to you) to make a more general observation of his past performance and abilities.

[RendeR]

What National Championship did Palmer win?
Damn, you got me ;)

Not sure why I thought he was still at USC for that one, he was riding Pine in Cincy in 2003. My bad!

He's still far better than Leinert ever will be.

[ISiddiqui]

I will say this... before the game last night, he was projected to go anywhere from 3-8. Now, you have people saying he should be picked ahead of Reggie Bush (unheard of, even, last week). So a lot of people are much higher on him after just the one game.

[Buccaneer]

Exactly, Young isn't familar with playing from behind the center, he's only played from the Shotgun (from what I saw last night).
I noticed that too, as well as his awkward stance.

[Buccaneer]

I will say this... before the game last night, he was projected to go anywhere from 3-8. Now, you have people saying he should be picked ahead of Reggie Bush (unheard of, even, last week). So a lot of people are much higher on him after just the one game.
Yeah, esp. since most all season, folks here were calling Bush the greatest RB they had ever seen. Do that many people really have only short-term memories?

[Easy Mac]

Again, jump to conclusions that people are high on him just after this one game. How many other games of his have you watched? Maybe the Ohio State game? Have you even watched Cutler play?I've seen Cutler play. I'd say his arm is better than VY's. He's quick and elusive, but not as much as Young. The knock against Cutler for me is that he couldn't even get Vandy to a winning record. Even Eli Manning, with marginally better talent than Vandy had, got Ole Miss to a 9-3 record I believe. I think Cutler can develop into a good QB, but I don't know if he's a "winner" (I know, not a fair assessment)

Physical Tools
Vince Young
Jay Cutler
Matt Leinart

QB Tools
Leinart
Cutler
Young

Intangibles
(Tied)Leinart
(Tied)Young
Cutler

Of course, I think Leinart is the best bet if you're looking for a straight pocket QB. I think VY's release will hurt him more in the pro's than people will think. He's big, but not as big as Culpepper; fast, but not as fast as Vick; a good passer, but not as good as McNair out of college. Maybe he's McNabb-ish, but I don't know if thats accurate. Maybe a faster/stronger Steve Young with a funky passing motion. Cutler is also Steve Young like, arm about as good and maybe a little quicker. I think if he was behind a solid line he would have developed better, because I think right now he's the farthest away from being NFL ready ( though I think he's faced more NFL ready defensive talent).

[Galaxy]

Haha...Will Ferrell and Vince Young on Leno tonight.

[Craptacular]

Damn, you got me ;)

Not sure why I thought he was still at USC for that one, he was riding Pine in Cincy in 2003. My bad!

He's still far better than Leinert ever will be.
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Hey, I don't necessarily disagree that Leinart will not be the pro that Carson is and will be. However, Palmer still had some pretty good talent ... remember, Hershel Dennis, Justin Fargas, Sultan McCullough, Kareem Kelly, etc were all very, very highly rated recruits. Palmer was pretty much viewed as a disappointment for 75% of this college career. No matter the talent, Leinart has been an unbelieveable QB the last few years.

[RendeR]

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Hey, I don't necessarily disagree that Leinart will not be the pro that Carson is and will be. However, Palmer still had some pretty good talent ... remember, Hershel Dennis, Justin Fargas, Sultan McCullough, Kareem Kelly, etc were all very, very highly rated recruits. Palmer was pretty much viewed as a disappointment for 75% of this college career. No matter the talent, Leinart has been an unbelieveable QB the last few years.And who from Carson's team are doing anything in college OR the NFL today? Nada.
well maybe williams...someday....but still:

See that was my original statement though, for that first 3/4 of his college time there was no set offense, if Peyton manning's offensive coord and scheme changed every year for his first three years in college he'd have looked like shit too. My argument is that People bashing those early years seem to dismiss the fact that leinert has had 3-4 years in that very same system, while Casron had 2 and turned into a monster studd in the second one.

Had Palmer had 3 more years in that system, we'd be talking about 3 unquestioned national titles. Especially if he had the surrounding troops that Leinert has had the luxury of enjoying his entire career.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, esp. since most all season, folks here were calling Bush the greatest RB they had ever seen. Do that many people really have only short-term memories?We are agreeing far too much today ;).

[RendeR]

Yeah, esp. since most all season, folks here were calling Bush the greatest RB they had ever seen. Do that many people really have only short-term memories?
The mob is fickle brother....

[GrantDawg]

I've seen Cutler play. I'd say his arm is better than VY's. He's quick and elusive, but not as much as Young. The knock against Cutler for me is that he couldn't even get Vandy to a winning record. Even Eli Manning, with marginally better talent than Vandy had, got Ole Miss to a 9-3 record I believe. I think Cutler can develop into a good QB, but I don't know if he's a "winner" (I know, not a fair assessment)

Physical Tools
Vince Young
Jay Cutler
Matt Leinart

QB Tools
Leinart
Cutler
Young

Intangibles
(Tied)Leinart
(Tied)Young
Cutler

Of course, I think Leinart is the best bet if you're looking for a straight pocket QB. I think VY's release will hurt him more in the pro's than people will think. He's big, but not as big as Culpepper; fast, but not as fast as Vick; a good passer, but not as good as McNair out of college. Maybe he's McNabb-ish, but I don't know if thats accurate. Maybe a faster/stronger Steve Young with a funky passing motion. Cutler is also Steve Young like, arm about as good and maybe a little quicker. I think if he was behind a solid line he would have developed better, because I think right now he's the farthest away from being NFL ready ( though I think he's faced more NFL ready defensive talent).

Cutler has been hurt by the lack of talent around him. He stopped trusting his recievers (and for the most part for good reasons) and really limited what he could do. Still, he has the skills to be something special at the next level. He and Vince both are going to need time to develop. I don't know if it is more one than the other, but both need time.