Front Office Baseball

[Bee]

Assuming for a moment that Jim's next game is Baseball, do you think an FOF verson of baseball would be better than OOTP or Puresim or any of the others out there?

To be honest, I'd be surprised if it were. Nothing against FOF or Jim, but despite his feelings otherwise I think FOF has serious weaknesses in how the AI manages rosters. I would expect this will also translate to a baseball game.

That being said, I see similar problems with OOTP (not sure about the AI of Puresim in my limited exposure to the game), so that means a comparison has to be based on other aspects of the game since the AI in either game is relatively weak. OOTP and Pursim both bring fresh ideas to the genre and have many features that Jim hasn't wanted to bring into FOF (customized leagues, historic data, multiplayer leagues, news media, etc). Existing baseball games also have the advantage of being further along in the development process (5th version, etc.). For Jim to challenge that established group, he'll have to do something new and different IMO and Jim hasn't exactly been the type to "push the envelope" in his approach to game design.

I think one of Jim's strengths is his ability to develop a gaming engine that gives very realistic results, but the baseball sims already out there seem (at least to me) to already give acceptably accurate stats. I was hesitant to buy his next product when it is first released because of some disappointment I had with FOF4, but if it's baseball I am pretty sure I won't buy the game unless it gets stellar reviews after it's released. I'm not a huge baseball fan anyway and I just don't see where a baseball version of FOF would be more fun than what's already out there, and I don't see Jim doing anything drastically different than FOF (even if it is a different sport).

[cthomer5000]

If anything, the roster management factor could end up being worse in baseball. Baseball is a very objective, stat-centric game. The way the AI operates in FOF, they seem to only sign players based on potential, not necessarily performance. Would a baseball AI let a .330 hitter go in favor of a career .280 guy who should be better, but hasn't been?

[Anrhydeddu]

If FOB is anything like FOF4, then we would have a baseball sim that:
- strongly emphasize on-field simulation over front office simulation
- generates accurate statistical and records results
- very little customization
- can only operate with the current league structure and scheduling
- weak AI in managing rosters and acquiring players
- text font that is too small to read
- limited graphical customization (logos, etc.)
- no multiplayer or ability to have more than one human managed team

[A-Husker-4-Life]

I really hope Jim sticks with FOOTBALL....

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by A-Husker-4-Life
I really hope Jim sticks with FOOTBALL.... Considering that he's already said he's doing a new sport, you're hoping against hope.

[Anrhydeddu]

I'm not saying that FOB of this nature will be a bad product, for some it will be, but for others, it will be a great product...just like FOF4. However, it seems that the current text-based baseball market runs the extreme from casual simplicity (BM) to customizable/multiplayer game (OOTP) to more detailed number cruncher (PureSim) to hardcore, labratory simulator (DiamondMinds). Where is the market for a static on-field simulation?

[Bee]

I agree. I just don't see a whole lot of room in the market. There are going to be some die-hard baseball fans who probably own all the sims, then there are going to be die-hard Solecismic fans who will buy anything that Jim puts out. But IMO, that will most likely be a smaller group than what have bought FOF and TCY in the past.

[Buzzbee]

Ok, let's assume it is a baseball sim. How would Jim work the timing? At this point he is still in the design stage. How long will that take? For the original FOF, didn't Jim say he spent two months simply studying the game? Will he have to start from scratch with his research, or has he kinda gathered baseball research over the past couple of years? I'm guessing start from scratch. Since this would be a new area for him, I imagine writing the code would take significantly longer than FOF/TCY since he won't already have some code written, or some idea of how to approach the code. Since it will be "new" code, he will most likely have to take a longer time to debug as he goes.

Considering the size of the project, I wouldn't be suprised (if it IS a baseball sim) for the release date to be sometime between February and April of 2004. For baseball, that seems like it would be a logical time to release a game.

Anyone else have any guesses as to when it would be released, IF it is a baseball sim?

[HornedFrog Purple]

He has not abandoned football yet:

[JimG] I haven't decided that yet. I don't intend to abandon TCY. It needs a play-calling interface, and so I'd really like to write TCY2 some day. But it won't come in 2003.

I really dont think it will be baseball though.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Buzzbee

Considering the size of the project, I wouldn't be suprised (if it IS a baseball sim) for the release date to be sometime between February and April of 2004. For baseball, that seems like it would be a logical time to release a game.


If it's baseball, this seems realistic to me and makes sense.

[Ksyrup]

Allowing for time to do research, coding, and changing diapers, this makes sense.

BTW, nobody asked how the pregnancy is coming along? His wife is due in less than two months, isn't she?

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Allowing for time to do research, coding, and changing diapers, this makes sense.

BTW, nobody asked how the pregnancy is coming along? His wife is due in less than two months, isn't she?

Damn! Forgot that. Better add six months to the release date. :D (not Jim's wife's, the game's!)

[Qwikshot]

I don't think it'll be baseball either, Football is Jim's niche, but if he wants to try another sport, a wise man would do one that has little in the way of competition...

[SackAttack]

I'm really not sure which sport I'd want to see. I'd love to see Jim try his hand at a baseball or hockey game, and those would be my preferences, but with PureSim/OOTP out there, it's a crowded market on the diamond, and with EHM getting SI's backing, hockey might be taken care of as well.

I WILL say that if SI catches the hint from Jim's transcript and approaches him about doing a Front Office Baseball based on the CM engine, I'll be the first in line to buy it. That would kick some serious, serious ass. :D

[condors]

i would give it a look but not sure i would be quick to buy

[Bee]

If he does a game with SIGames, I'd bet on Basketball. SIGames is much stronger in Europe and that's the only American sport that would have much appeal IMO.

[Honolulu Blue]

I think there's too much competition in baseball for Jim to consider this for his next game. There are at least three career sims (BM, OOTP, PS), and three text sims (SOM, DMB, LH). I don't see a big enough niche to sell enough games to make a profit.

Especially when there are other sports that are less explored. Basketball only has a couple of minor players and hockey only one (though with SIGames' support, it could be a behemoth). As I've mentioned elsewhere, the worlds of tennis and stock cars (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=35030#post35030) are wide open.

But if he does do a baseball game, A's analysis seems correct - it'll record every stat known to mankind, for everyone, and accurately; but with limited customizability and iffy AI.

(Edited to take my words out of SackAttack's mouth, and rework my first sentence to make more sense)

[SackAttack]

HBlue - don't put words in my mouth, please. I didn't say that there's too much competition for a baseball game, simply that the existing competition might prod Jim in a different direction. There's certainly not so much competition that I wouldn't buy a Gindin baseball game, but I'd be that much more likely to if it had the depth of a CM. No question.

[Honolulu Blue]

Originally posted by SackAttack
HBlue - don't put words in my mouth, please. I didn't say that there's too much competition for a baseball game, simply that the existing competition might prod Jim in a different direction. There's certainly not so much competition that I wouldn't buy a Gindin baseball game, but I'd be that much more likely to if it had the depth of a CM. No question.

Points noted. Have changed original post.

There's always room on my hard drive for a good baseball game, no matter where it comes from.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Honolulu Blue
There's always room on my hard drive for a good baseball game, no matter where it comes from. Amen!

[kcchief19]

I wouldn't mind seeing Jim venture into baseball, since I don't believe that we have yet had the "definitive" baseball sim in the way that FOF is THE football sim and CM is THE soccer sim. However, my guess is that a Front Office Baseball would be a very deep major league baseball sim but would probably not have a deep minor league system.

In mining the chat transcript for clues, I think SkyDog stumbled onto something with EA extending ownership of frontofficebasketball.com. I think that's going to be the next game.

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by kcchief19
I wouldn't mind seeing Jim venture into baseball, since I don't believe that we have yet had the "definitive" baseball sim in the way that FOF is THE football sim and CM is THE soccer sim. However, my guess is that a Front Office Baseball would be a very deep major league baseball sim but would probably not have a deep minor league system.

In mining the chat transcript for clues, I think SkyDog stumbled onto something with EA extending ownership of frontofficebasketball.com. I think that's going to be the next game.

i thnk that the only reason that FOF is THE football sime is because it is the ONLY football sim... big difference there

[PineTar]

Sadly, I don't think there is room in my budget for Front Office Baseball unless it has multiplayer. Currently, the FOBL (and consequently the OOTP game engine) provides for all my wants and needs out of a baseball experience. Solecismic hasn't shown an interest in that segment of the marketplace, so I'd probably abstain.

I still wish someone would take on a deep-deep single player text sim for horseracing with the kind of breeding depth evidenced over at www.simulatedsports.com

[Bee]

I have enjoyed FOF a lot, but I think McSweeny makes an important point. FOF has no competition right now for a football sim. I really enjoy football and FOF has brought me a great deal of enjoyment, but there are things that I don't like about it. If there were other alternatives, I don't know how highly FOF would rank in my "all-time" great games list.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Why hasn't anybody mentioned "Front Office Football : Highschool Dreams"... A highschool football sim, the first of it's kind... Think about it, what if you could follow a guy from HS to College then Pro's.. Now that would be something different, something I would like to play...Front Office Football : Highschool Dreams

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by cthomer5000
The way the AI operates in FOF, they seem to only sign players based on potential, not necessarily performance. Would a baseball AI let a .330 hitter go in favor of a career .280 guy who should be better, but hasn't been?


Maybe the AI for the Royals, Pirates, Tigers or Orioles :D

[Craptacular]

I'd still holding out hope for BOP ... Back Office Politics. I'd buy a good election / political simulation before any other sports sims.

[oykib]

I'm down for a Baseball Sim. I think it'd be much better than what's on the market today. I don't know about you. But FOF has been the most fun I've had with a text sim outside of the early days of Baseball Mogul ( which was also pretty fun back then ).

I think Jim understands about fun factor in a way that these other developers don't. With FOF you have some ability to vary the single gamer experience by the amount of detail you want to put in. That would really make a difference in a baseball sim with full minors. If he could properly incorporate arbitration, then I think that we'd have a winner.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by oykib
I think Jim understands about fun factor in a way that these other developers don't.

That reminded me about the fable of the blind men and the elephant.

[lcjjdnh]

Originally posted by Craptacular
I'd still holding out hope for BOP ... Back Office Politics. I'd buy a good election / political simulation before any other sports sims.

I would like to second this. I think it would be a great game if someone could create it. I have been playing President Elect and Power Politics but always felt this genre could be expanded. I think a game where you work your way up from the bottom. The possibilities are endless. You could concentrate on the legislative branch and work your way through the state legislatures to the congress but then might decide you want to be a governor. If there were actual decisions to make once elected, it would be even cooler, as your vote on a bill 20 years ago could be brought up on a current campaign.

Obviously, this would take a very well designed plan and probably an even harder simulator to create, but this would be one awesome game.

[AgPete]

I'm not anxious to play a baseball game but it would be interesting to see how Jim changes the standard OOTP format. I'd rather play a basketball or even an ice hockey game. One thing positive about baseball is Jim's games are built on contracts and trades, more so than the OOTP series. I think baseball would be a more natural fit for a "Jim game" than football.

[EagleFan]

I thought it was going to be the eagerly anticipated Front Office Curling.

I can't see a baseball sim. The market is flooded with products that already offer more than I can see him doing, things like multiplayer and customization.

Basketball still has some openings out there in the market.

Hockey also has some openings as the EHM game is a ways from being released as well as the .400 Studios hockey game. I can't see the idea of potential future products being a factor in not making a game. What we know about EHM is that it is fun for a free game but the speed and other issues would drag it down if you had to pay for it. We know what SI has with CM but a marriage of the two products can't be immediately assumed to be a great game. Expecting too much can only lead to a let down.

Boxing has openings. Unless the new Titls Fight just blows everything out of the water.

High School Football would be cool if it could import into TCY but I don't remember seeing an import option like there was in FOF so there would have to be some sort of change to allow for that.

Politics would be cool. There hasn't really been a good political sim for a while. Again that would have to be somewhat customizable, like with historical scenarios.

Racing would be interesting, but there would have to be enough there to hold your attention. The big thing there is how detailed do you get when it comes to running the team. Do you try to appease the gear heads or the people who want to be the team owners and don;t want to mess around with gear ratios and stuff like that. Plus there is already a great graphical sim on the marke that lets you do a lot of that and race as well.

How about horse racing? There hasn't beena good horse racing sim for a few years. Again, his whole refusal to allow something customizable and multiplayer might hurt there. By multiplayer I am thinking about the idea of allowing imported horses. Allowing the user to import horses from others to be used to run a stakes race, or just a race in general.

[dawgfan]

Count me as one who thinks the baseball market, despite the number of competitors, is still ripe to be had by the "right" game. My impressions of OOTP are that while it does well as the framework for a multiplayer game, it fails in the single-player category. Perhaps PureSim will fill that void, but current reports are that the finances lack authenticity.

I had high hopes for Franchise Baseball before that project came to a screeching halt. Joe Stallings had done great work with the interface, and it was apparent that the developer had a keen understanding of the game (not something I'm certain of with Marcus).

I think most of us enjoyed Baseball Mogul when it was first released, but eventually wished for something more fleshed-out. I think Jim has a lot of strengths that would work with a baseball sim. His methodology of viewing players through the filter of a scout, the way he displays that information, his experience in trying to model a realistic financial system (quibbles aside, I think he's done a better job than any of the other sports sims, though I haven't played CM).

From a purely selfish perspective, I'd love to see a baseball sim that:

- Has an accurate simulation engine based on the principles we've learned through sabermetrics, and reflects modern thinking about the skills that matter rather than the old-school 5-tools thinking that ignores plate discipline;

- Has a full minor league system, including the ability to promote and demote, choose organizational philosophies/emphasis in certain skills or attributes, augmented by a number of choices for levels of micro-management of the system as a whole;

- Includes the standard FOF financials including contract negotiation, stadium finances including possible moves, an emphasis on being fiscally responsible over a certain period of time (although with enough flexibility to allow you to overspend in a certain year, i.e. no "hard" cap on payroll etc.), and expands on the agent idea born in FOF4;

- Allowed some control of drafting, at the least an organizational philosophy on what to target, and/or actual drafting by the user as in FOF (though you'd probably want to limit it to no more than 10 rounds or so before you let the computer take over following your general philosophies);

- Had an accurate reflection of things that affect development, including age, normal patterns of growth and deterioration as well as the randomness that occurs in real life (young guys flaming out, old guys busting out with big years) as well as injuries;

- Sims games quickly like FOF and TCY;

- Adds some flexibility and customization in the means of managing/micro-managing your team and minor league system (sliders indicating preferences, ability to save lineups/draft preferences/coaching emphasis etc.;

- Allows for the possibility of importing real-life rosters, and ideally game engine sliders that allow the game to accurately reflect baseball in different eras so accurate historical replays could be done;

- Allows for variable league sizes to recreate past eras and allow for potential expansion in future ones;

- Allows for customization of certain graphical elements, i.e. team logos, player faces (does anyone else love the fact that TDCB has the player face feature? Really allows you to feel more connected...)

I've been meaning for quite some time to flesh out my ideal baseball sim with actual game design specs, and maybe I'll do that this summer when things get a little less hectic at work. I think it would be fun to hash out these ideas with the other baseball junkies on this board.

Edited: Franchise Baseball, not Small Market Baseball

[Thomkal]

I see little chance of it being a baseball game despite Jim's love of the game. For the reasons mentioned by others, crowded market, likelihood of no multiplayer, etc.

I think hockey is a likely target given that you will like his other games, take over the front office. All the different strategies involved and various player skills likely appeal to him a great deal given how TCY and FOF have been geared towards that.

It would be interesting to see a tennis sim but as that is a one person sport rather than a team sport, I don't think it fits into his type of game. I'd love to see a horse racing sim from him. Pinetar mentioned the excellent sim at www.simulatedsports.com, and I'd like to be able to have races whenever I wanted them, not just once a week. :)

Those who have a faint interest in the sport should check out that sim-I knew next to nothing about the sport before I joined the sim and its got me sucked in good. I'd be glad to help anybody who needed help getting started, its intimidating at first.

Blatant plug over with. :)

Dan

[Anrhydeddu]

dawgfan: While I agree with some of your points, the perception that Jim's games are more suited for single-season mode takes away from solo play. I say that in regards to the inherent weaknesses in the AI to building and managing its teams in a multi-season career. It seems with much of the emphasis of FOF4 on accurately simming a game (playcalling or not) and all of the gameplan settings, that is where the strength lies - not in running a career. Just like with multiplayer (or at least, multiple human teams), I just don't think the market will accept a static single-season sim anymore (which DiamondMinds does exceptionally well).

[Karim]

FOF Hockey going up against EHM:FE? Hmmm.... I can't see it happening. I *will* purchase EHM:FE but FOF Hockey would have to come out first for me to consider it. Either that or EHM:FE is a major disappointment which I can't see happening either. So while the competition isn't stiff, he'd be going up against a possible "CM of Hockey."

I'd like to see a FOF Baseball. Like has been mentioned, I also think there is room for the "right" sim. While I'm a fan of PureSim and have purchased PureSim 2003, I'd take a long look at whatever Solecismic puts out in this genre.

I'd pass on any basketball sim but it might happen.

Nothing else would generate much interest on my end unless its football.