Sammy Sosa calls it quits?!??

[Captain2711]

Apparently he rejected the Washington Nationals deal because he didn't want hang on to long.

What he meant to say was that I hit .220 and had only 14 homeruns and since they banned steroids I have completely lost my game. Gone just a day and I miss his arrogant hop already.

[Draft Dodger]

well, .220 is a rather anabolic output.

er, anemic. I meant to say anemic.

[Captain2711]

The real question is, is whether he is a HOF'er or not? To me, his production dropped off too much since the steroid scandal.

[TredWel]

I'd say almost certainly, but definitely not on the first ballot. Time heals all wounds, and his production was so far above the HOF line that even after taking into account a level of steroid inflation, his numbers would still get him in.

[ThunderingHERD]

Good riddance. Can't stand the guy.

[KWhit]

I'd say almost certainly, but definitely not on the first ballot. Time heals all wounds, and his production was so far above the HOF line that even after taking into account a level of steroid inflation, his numbers would still get him in.
No way should he be in the hall. Ever.

Steroids. Corked bat.

No way.

[Draft Dodger]

588 home runs is a lot of homers to keep out of the hall without some definitive proof that he was on the juice. If he doesn't get in, he'll have over a hundred bombs more than any other non-HOFer...

don't get me wrong, I think he cheated for sure, but without proof...

[Coffee Warlord]

Good riddance to the biggest "Me First" player in the league.

[watravaler]

Baseball is a "me-first" game, so I can't fault the guy for over-inflating himself. He was fun to watch, regardless of any unknown substances he may have used to get better. I don't believe you can leave a guy with 588 homers out of the hall. He may not be a first-ballot, or even a ten-ballot, or whatever, but Sammy was an all-time great, and I don't think they can keep him out for long. Accoring to Bill James he is a lock...

I also don't buy the "he didn't make his team better" argument. Sosa was the Cubs for a decade, blame the GM.

[Captain2711]

He reminded me of Reggie with his high HR totals and his high Strikeouts, but Reggie proved his worth by winning five titles and making good teams great

[Ksyrup]

588 home runs is a lot of homers to keep out of the hall without some definitive proof that he was on the juice. If he doesn't get in, he'll have over a hundred bombs more than any other non-HOFer...

don't get me wrong, I think he cheated for sure, but without proof...
Here's how I've decided to come down on this issue, after giving this way too much thought for someone who isn't paid to give opinions on this sort of stuff. There can be no proof that any of these guys did steroids back in the 90s. The best you'll get is a confession (yeah right), but in reality, all we'll have is anecdotal evidence and possibly a teammate or trainer or someone who claims X player was juicing. There were no tests, so there can't even be some sort of Lance Armstrong-type claim about a test from years ago.

So our definitive proof is not going to happen. But we do know that steroids were in the game. There's no question about that. And we also know that the player's union did whatever they could, under the guise of privacy issues, to keep players from having to be tested, when it was clearly in the players' (just from a health perspective, if nothing else) and the sports' best interests to have the game be clean. So what I've decided is that if the writers and the public and whomever else decides that the guys who defined this era (McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Bonds) aren't Hall-worthy, then they've got no one to blame but themselves and their union. They might be legit, but they lost the right to argue that point now by sitting on their asses and doing nothing about the steroid issue for 15 years. So if that means a clean, but corked bat, egotistical, self-centered Sosa doesn't make the Hall, then dems da breaks, pancho.

[duckman]

He reminded me of Reggie with his high HR totals and his high Strikeouts, but Reggie proved his worth by winning five titles and making good teams great
Except for that winning five titles and making good teams great part.....

[Captain2711]

Well, Palmeiro is done, McGwire all but admitted it, as did Giambi. I would respect someone's decision to give Giambi the nod at being a better player than Sosa simply for the fact that he has produced power post steroids. Both he and Bonds to me are absolved considering their production last September.

[clintl]

He will get elected. The corked bat is a non-issue - one, corked bats don't work, and two, throwing spitters and related pitches never kept any pitchers out of the Hall, and those pitches actually do give a pitcher an advantage. On the cheating scale, corked bats are like spitters - you serve your suspension if you get caught, and move on, and everyone forgets about it except when they're making a joke about it. Palmeiro's a question mark because he actually got caught in addition to having a suspicious career path, but I don't think that in the end, enough Hall voters are going to withhold votes based only on suspicion.

[KWhit]

Both he and Bonds to me are absolved considering their production last September.
Crazy talk.

[Vince]

Crazy talk.
Even as a huge Bonds apologist, I also believe that he should not be absolved simply because he hit a few more homeruns.

[DanGarion]

Wow I didn't know it came out that Sosa did steriods. You guys going to judge him and hang him... Very classy.

[I. J. Reilly]

The sad part about this is that Sosa may be a victim of timing here. He’s 38 years old, and that’s a Latin 38. It’s not inconceivable that he just got old at the wrong time. I think he probably was on steroids, but it’s not out of the realm of possibilities that he was clean and simply lost some bat speed. There have been plenty of players who go from great to out of the game over the course of one or two seasons.

[Bee]

And perhaps he started eating at Subway, which would explain the massive weight loss he experienced when they started drug testing. :D

[DanGarion]

And perhaps he started eating at Subway, which would explain the massive weight loss he experienced when they started drug testing. :D
Do you have anything for reference on this that I can read, or is this just an assumption?

[Klinglerware]

The sad part about this is that Sosa may be a victim of timing here. He’s 38 years old, and that’s a Latin 38. It’s not inconceivable that he just got old at the wrong time. I think he probably was on steroids, but it’s not out of the realm of possibilities that he was clean and simply lost some bat speed. There have been plenty of players who go from great to out of the game over the course of one or two seasons.

That's a fair point. Many athletes fade rather quickly after they hit a certain age.

[sterlingice]

The real question is, is whether he is a HOF'er or not? To me, his production dropped off too much since the steroid scandal.The sad part about this is that Sosa may be a victim of timing here. He’s 38 years old, and that’s a Latin 38. It’s not inconceivable that he just got old at the wrong time. I think he probably was on steroids, but it’s not out of the realm of possibilities that he was clean and simply lost some bat speed. There have been plenty of players who go from great to out of the game over the course of one or two seasons.Yeah, see- I think this explains the dropoff much more than the steroid thing. Barry Bonds notwithstanding, so few hitters produce at that age, and that's if he's even the age he was claimed (not that anyone has doubted that before). I mean, geez, players like Dale Murphy and Jim Rice fell off a cliff 5 years earlier but it's not because of steroid use- it's just the age where players start to "get old".

SI

[sterlingice]

He reminded me of Reggie with his high HR totals and his high Strikeouts, but Reggie proved his worth by winning five titles and making good teams greatYeah... uh, no. See- this is why the football:baseball analogy just doesn't work. Despite what some Jeter-lovers and others would like to believe, you can't "make your teammates" better through some magical leadership force in baseball. You could be a good influence in the clubhouse and that's somewhat immeasurable but baseball's just not a physical game where there's mentality and effort can really trump skill sometimes like football or basketball and usually, quite the opposite- try too hard and you'll just choke. Sure, your stellar defense could save your teammates some mistakes or your big bat could provide some protection in the lineup so pitchers have to pitch to someone else. But those are fairly quantifiable and not some magical "intangibles"- those just aren't really there in baseball.

SI

[wishbone]

...He’s 38 years old, and that’s a Latin 38.
What does this mean? Is there some kind of modifier for Latinos that makes time pass differently for them? I'm not criticizing here or offended by the remark but am honestly curious what that means.

[sterlingice]

What does this mean? Is there some kind of modifier for Latinos that makes time pass differently for them? I'm not criticizing here or offended by the remark but am honestly curious what that means.I believe this is what he's referring to:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/features/agechart.html
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark_jayson/1339359.html
http://strikethree.com/02/02/26/jason.shtml

There's a large tendency for players from Latin countries, particularly the Dominican Republic, to have lied on birth certificates. If you're 19 and looking to sign a big league contract in a country where there aren't that many accurate records, it looks a lot better if you say you're 17 and have the skill set of a 19yo- you're a lot better prospect.

SI

[oykib]

What does this mean? Is there some kind of modifier for Latinos that makes time pass differently for them? I'm not criticizing here or offended by the remark but am honestly curious what that means.

There is a lot of falsification of age records for latin ballplayers.

A player who performs at an average level at AA at 24 is probably never going to make the majors, at 21 is probably going to get at least a cup of coffee at some point, at 18 is probably going to be a superstar.

So it's in the interest of players to pretend to be younger. Two years is a fairly common amount. If that's true for Sammy, then he'd really be 40 this year.

[I. J. Reilly]

What does this mean? Is there some kind of modifier for Latinos that makes time pass differently for them? I'm not criticizing here or offended by the remark but am honestly curious what that means.
Sorry, should have clarified that.
It's a bit of a joke in major league baseball that the Latin players aren't completely truthful about their birthdates. Most of these guys are pretty raw when they are first scouted, and they know that a raw 16 year old is much more valuable then a raw 19 year old. Apparently birth records in the Dominican or Puerto Rico are a little bit more flexible then they are here.

(I need to learn to type faster.)

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, see- I think this explains the dropoff much more than the steroid thing. Barry Bonds notwithstanding, so few hitters produce at that age, and that's if he's even the age he was claimed (not that anyone has doubted that before). I mean, geez, players like Dale Murphy and Jim Rice fell off a cliff 5 years earlier but it's not because of steroid use- it's just the age where players start to "get old".

SIAnd as I stated above, "oh well." They blew their opportunity to make the game cleaner than it has been for the past 20 years, so they deserve whatever fallout comes from it. If Dale Murphy didn't have the body of an accountant for his entire career, then perhaps someone would have questioned whether he just "lost it" or had some artificial help. Sosa, Bonds, etc., may be the victims of unfortunate timing, but they don't get any sympathy from me.

[sterlingice]

And as I stated above, "oh well." They blew their opportunity to make the game cleaner than it has been for the past 20 years, so they deserve whatever fallout comes from it. If Dale Murphy didn't have the body of an accountant for his entire career, then perhaps someone would have questioned whether he just "lost it" or had some artificial help. Sosa, Bonds, etc., may be the victims of unfortunate timing, but they don't get any sympathy from me.Well, my post didn't say whether I thought Sosa was hall worthy or not. However, it does address the argument of "clearly, he sucked post-steroid" when it's not so cut-and-dry.

SI

[wishbone]

I believe this is what he's referring to:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/features/agechart.html
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark_jayson/1339359.html
http://strikethree.com/02/02/26/jason.shtml

There's a large tendency for players from Latin countries, particularly the Dominican Republic, to have lied on birth certificates. If you're 19 and looking to sign a big league contract in a country where there aren't that many accurate records, it looks a lot better if you say you're 17 and have the skill set of a 19yo- you're a lot better prospect.

SI
Oh, that makes sense. I don't follow baseball and didn't know about this.

[Ksyrup]

Well, my post didn't say whether I thought Sosa was hall worthy or not. However, it does address the argument of "clearly, he sucked post-steroid" when it's not so cut-and-dry.

SI
I understand that, but given the circumstances, I'm not willing to just throw him in with the Dale Murphy's of the world.

[pennywisesb]

Well, Palmeiro is done, McGwire all but admitted it, as did Giambi. I would respect someone's decision to give Giambi the nod at being a better player than Sosa simply for the fact that he has produced power post steroids. Both he and Bonds to me are absolved considering their production last September.

Why is Giambi being thrown into this argument? He isn't even close to being on the same level performance-wise as the others mentioned here. These guys are legends, Giambi is just a good player.

[Young Drachma]

I think that everyone is too hard on Sammy. People turned on this guy when - in reality - he wasn't much different than he had been before at any point in his career.

As far as steroids, I dunno. I think cheating has always been rampant in baseball - look at the size of some of these guys - and it's just that the guys now are getting hit the hardest as though they're the worst cheaters of all time. And I just don't buy that.

I think time will heal all wounds, because it usually does. The steroid cloud is just passing and it's still relatively fresh. But in a decade or so, it won't be on the radar like it is now.

[Oilers9911]

Lance Armstrong, suspicions of steroids, no proof = American Hero
Sammy Sosa, Suspiscian of steroids, no proof = Villified

Kind of a double standard I would say. If steroid use if proven then he shouldn't get in. Other wise he has to go in.

[st.cronin]

Sammy Sosa and Michael Irvin and others make Halls of Fame totally irrelevant to my life. Put him in the HOF, fine; just don't expect me to take a vacation to see your monuments to egomania.

[rkmsuf]

Sammy Sosa and Michael Irvin and others make Halls of Fame totally irrelevant to my life. Put him in the HOF, fine; just don't expect me to take a vacation to see your monuments to egomania.

Yeah but you could go and like draw a mustache on his monument's face.

[Ksyrup]

Lance Armstrong, suspicions of steroids, no proof = American Hero
Sammy Sosa, Suspiscian of steroids, no proof = Villified

Kind of a double standard I would say. If steroid use if proven then he shouldn't get in. Other wise he has to go in.
How would we prove steroids for anyone who played during the 80s and 90s other than a confession? That's an impossible standard to begin with.

As far as Sosa/Armstrong...I care about baseball and don't give a lick about cycling. And I'm not alone. If Armstrong admitted steroid use tomorrow, I wouldn't even click the article's link on ESPN. We're not outraged by issues involving events/people we don't care about.

And of course, Armstrong had cancer, and even at the height of his popularity, Sammy was a cancer. He's always been a self-absorbed asshole, and for about 3 years we were too wrapped up in his HRs to really admit it. Now that he's pretty much through, he's got nothing but a shitty personality to fall back on.

I think that about explains the "double standard."

[dawgfan]

No way should he be in the hall. Ever.

Steroids. Corked bat.

No way.
Ridiculous over-reaction.

Steroids = No proof
Corked bat = No real advantage of using one and he served his punishment for it already

[dawgfan]

Here's how I've decided to come down on this issue, after giving this way too much thought for someone who isn't paid to give opinions on this sort of stuff. There can be no proof that any of these guys did steroids back in the 90s. The best you'll get is a confession (yeah right), but in reality, all we'll have is anecdotal evidence and possibly a teammate or trainer or someone who claims X player was juicing. There were no tests, so there can't even be some sort of Lance Armstrong-type claim about a test from years ago.

So our definitive proof is not going to happen. But we do know that steroids were in the game. There's no question about that. And we also know that the player's union did whatever they could, under the guise of privacy issues, to keep players from having to be tested, when it was clearly in the players' (just from a health perspective, if nothing else) and the sports' best interests to have the game be clean. So what I've decided is that if the writers and the public and whomever else decides that the guys who defined this era (McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Bonds) aren't Hall-worthy, then they've got no one to blame but themselves and their union. They might be legit, but they lost the right to argue that point now by sitting on their asses and doing nothing about the steroid issue for 15 years. So if that means a clean, but corked bat, egotistical, self-centered Sosa doesn't make the Hall, then dems da breaks, pancho.
Change the dates to the '50's, '60's & '70's, the drug to Amphetamines and the names to Mays, Mantle, Morgan & Aaron and would you feel the same way?

[Draft Dodger]

Lance Armstrong, suspicions of steroids, no proof = American Hero
Sammy Sosa, Suspiscian of steroids, no proof = Villified

Kind of a double standard I would say. If steroid use if proven then he shouldn't get in. Other wise he has to go in.

one humungous difference being, of course, that Armstrong has been subject to rigourous steroid testing. Sosa? not so much.

[rkmsuf]

Sosa can alwasy fall back on not speaking or understanding english well enough. He's in the clear here.

[DanGarion]

Sammy Sosa and Michael Irvin and others make Halls of Fame totally irrelevant to my life. Put him in the HOF, fine; just don't expect me to take a vacation to see your monuments to egomania.
Because Michael Irvin took steriods right? Oh wait, no he was doing lines of coke and giving money to self employed models...
:rolleyes:

[Ksyrup]

Change the dates to the '50's, '60's & '70's, the drug to Amphetamines and the names to Mays, Mantle, Morgan & Aaron and would you feel the same way?
Yes, I would, but those decisions have been made and apparently neither baseball, the writers, the players, or the vast majority of fans give a fuck, as compared to what's going on now. At this point, you can't undo what's already been done.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Originally Posted by Bee
And perhaps he started eating at Subway, which would explain the massive weight loss he experienced when they started drug testing.


[QUOTE=dangarion]Do you have anything for reference on this that I can read, or is this just an assumption?

Yes, there was a trail of blood and yess he had those bloody gloves and yes he ran away from the police, but I didnt actually see OJ shoot anyone therefore I also believe OJ didn't do it.

[Desnudo]

Sosa can alwasy fall back on not speaking or understanding english well enough. He's in the clear here.

Is Sosa the jbmagic of baseball. Or is jbmagic the Sosa of this board?

[pennywisesb]

Corked bat = No real advantage of using one and he served his punishment for it already

Yes he did serve his punishment, so we can't really hold him accountable for that. I'm just curious where you got this "no real advantage" information reguarding the corked bat. If thats the case, why are they illegal?

[Bee]

Yes, there was a trail of blood and yess he had those bloody gloves and yes he ran away from the police, but I didnt actually see OJ shoot anyone therefore I also believe OJ didn't do it.

I tried to find a picture of Sosa going into a Subway, but I came up empty. :(

[Ksyrup]

Yes he did serve his punishment, so we can't really hold him accountable for that.
I'm not really sure I understand this rationale. This isn't a criminal trial and there is no double jeopardy here. We most certainly can hold that, or anything anyone else has done, against him, regardless of whether he served his punishment or not. I guess Palmeiro's a lock for the Hall if none of the voters can factor his positive test into their vote since he served his 10 game suspension...?

[Chubby]

the corked bat goes to show that Sosa has no problem cheating which leads more credence to the argument that he used steroids.

[KWhit]

I understand that, but given the circumstances, I'm not willing to just throw him in with the Dale Murphy's of the world.
Especially when Dale Murphy is one of the best of the best when it comes to how he has lived his life on and off the field.

[KWhit]

the corked bat goes to show that Sosa has no problem cheating which leads more credence to the argument that he used steroids.
Exactly.

And as far as the corked bat not giving him an advantage: He thought it was giving him an advantage, and he broke the rules to try to get that advantage. It's not our fault that he's also a dumbass as well as a cheater.

[Butter]

I'm not really sure I understand this rationale. This isn't a criminal trial and there is no double jeopardy here. We most certainly can hold that, or anything anyone else has done, against him, regardless of whether he served his punishment or not.

Exactly. When people are arguing about "where's the proof?" Just remember... there is no burden of proof in the court of public opinion. I think he did steroids, but I doubt I or anyone else could prove it in a court of law. That doesn't mean that I, and many others, don't still believe him to be guilty of cheating.

[DanGarion]

Exactly. When people are arguing about "where's the proof?" Just remember... there is no burden of proof in the court of public opinion. I think he did steroids, but I doubt I or anyone else could prove it in a court of law. That doesn't mean that I, and many others, don't still believe him to be guilty of cheating.
Yeah but you're still wrong. :D

[sterlingice]

I'm not really sure I understand this rationale. This isn't a criminal trial and there is no double jeopardy here. We most certainly can hold that, or anything anyone else has done, against him, regardless of whether he served his punishment or not. I guess Palmeiro's a lock for the Hall if none of the voters can factor his positive test into their vote since he served his 10 game suspension...?Agreed, that's like saying "we can't hold it against the child abuser in Father of the Year contests because he served his time". The corked bat definitely comes into play.

SI

[dawgfan]

Yes he did serve his punishment, so we can't really hold him accountable for that. I'm just curious where you got this "no real advantage" information reguarding the corked bat. If thats the case, why are they illegal?
A corked bat may allow for a slight improvement in bat speed, but at the cost of less power:

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/corkedbat.html

[dawgfan]

Exactly. When people are arguing about "where's the proof?" Just remember... there is no burden of proof in the court of public opinion. I think he did steroids, but I doubt I or anyone else could prove it in a court of law. That doesn't mean that I, and many others, don't still believe him to be guilty of cheating.
Certainly. But if you're talking about refusing to admit someone to the Hall of Fame who otherwise has obvious qualifications for entry, you'd better have something more concrete than "I think he juiced".

[dawgfan]

Yes, I would, but those decisions have been made and apparently neither baseball, the writers, the players, or the vast majority of fans give a fuck, as compared to what's going on now. At this point, you can't undo what's already been done.
True. We live in a different world now where the general public knows a lot more about what happens behind the scenes than we used to. Before Ball Four it was taboo to mention the dirty little secrets of what went on in the clubhouse. Once Bouton blew open those doors, you couldn't put the genie back in the bottle.

I'm pretty sure that had the level of scrutiny that happens in sports today been present in the decades prior to the '80's, amphetamine abuse by ballplayers back then would've been nearly the same scandal that steroids are today. But because it was not reported by the writers of the time, the confessions now are either ignored or easily forgotten by most of the sporting public. In their minds, the game was "purer" then despite evidence to the contrary, simply because they grew up thinking that was the case.

Unfortunately, so long as there is competition there will be those who will go to any lengths to gain an advantage. Due to the nature of drugs and drug testing, smart and well financed athletes can always stay ahead of the testing curve. This is not meant as a defense of cheaters - simply an acknowledgement that cheating has always and will always exist, and that the game really isn't any less "pure" than it ever was.

I have no problem busting those that get caught - I think it's necessary to do so even though we'll never catch all of those that cheat. But I think the witch-hunting that exists around steroids is out of proportion to similar sins surrounding sports and is unfair to those that are tarred and feathered without any proof. It wouldn't shock me if Sosa admitted that he juiced, but I think in the absence of such an admission or some other strong form of proof, his career should be judged on its own merits when it comes to Hall of Fame entry. Palmeiro on the other hand will undoubtedly be the first Hall of Fame steroid casualty, and I don't have much sympathy for him. Since he tested positive, the burden of proof is squarely on his shoulders to show that he didn't take steroids.

[Ksyrup]

I kinda look at it in a more worldly, general sense. Presidential affairs weren't reported like they are now; war reporting is far more critical than it was in the 40s and 50s; reporting of Hollywood goings-on is beyond ridiculous - it used to be a bad thing to have a sex tape, now it's gotten to the point where Scott Stapp and Kid Rock are about to release a sex tape (doing 4 chicks, not each other). I just think the press and the hype and the scrutiny and all of the money involved has racheted all of these types of "scandals" up to unseen levels. In other words - people like Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth, FDR, and JFK were lucky bastards to have done what they did when they did it. We live in a different world now.

[dawgfan]

I kinda look at it in a more worldly, general sense. Presidential affairs weren't reported like they are now; war reporting is far more critical than it was in the 40s and 50s; reporting of Hollywood goings-on is beyond ridiculous - it used to be a bad thing to have a sex tape, now it's gotten to the point where Scott Stapp and Kid Rock are about to release a sex tape (doing 4 chicks, not each other). I just think the press and the hype and the scrutiny and all of the money involved has racheted all of these types of "scandals" up to unseen levels. In other words - people like Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth, FDR, and JFK were lucky bastards to have done what they did when they did it. We live in a different world now.
Yep. I agree completely. I think it's an interesting aspect of human psychology that many people just don't want to have to reassess the things they thought were true when new information comes out well after the fact that differs from that original belief.

I just think it results in a bit of a double-standard when it happens though. Guys that in hindsight we know or strongly suspect were pumping tons of greenies are in the Hall and safe with their reputations, but by God, if the court of public opinion thinks you've been juicing (Sammy Sosa) watch out!

[KWhit]

Yeah, but the fact that the single season HR record fell like it did (and in fact was broken twice in one year and then again by Bonds) hurts these guys because it brings so much attention to what's going on - not to mention the fact that Aaron's recod looks like it will fall too. If these guys were suspected users and hit 40 HRs a season, it wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.

[stevew]

the corked bat goes to show that Sosa has no problem cheating which leads more credence to the argument that he used steroids.

Agreed.

[sterlingice]

Yeah, but the fact that the single season HR record fell like it did (and in fact was broken twice in one year and then again by Bonds) hurts these guys because it brings so much attention to what's going on - not to mention the fact that Aaron's recod looks like it will fall too. If these guys were suspected users and hit 40 HRs a season, it wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.Except it is. Palmeiro's a long shot to make the Hall of Fame now because of his involvement and, while he was actually caught, a lot of people are brushing all of the players from the 90s with the same broad strokes. He put up those 35-40 home run seasons for a decade and his six most comparable players are all in the HOF. Then again, I suppose that just says that he wasn't as good as his other suspected "cheaters".

SI

[KWhit]

Except it is. Palmeiro's a long shot to make the Hall of Fame now because of his involvement and, while he was actually caught, a lot of people are brushing all of the players from the 90s with the same broad strokes. He put up those 35-40 home run seasons for a decade and his six most comparable players are all in the HOF. Then again, I suppose that just says that he wasn't as good as his other suspected "cheaters".

SI
Yeah, but Palmeiro was actually caught. I meant that the guys catching serious heat for being suspected users are under much more scrutiny because of the otherworldly numbers they've put up.

I mean, you don't hear as much talk about Bret Boone as you do about Sosa and McGwire, right?

[Thornbird]

That reporter set him up http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

http://www.thornbird.net/football/