Protestants at Catholic Schools -- Any FOFC'ers?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Another thread looking for some feedback, especially (but not limited to) those who've experienced this first hand.

If you've followed the saga of our search for a better academic environment for our soon-to-be 8 year old, you know that our far & away first choice is looking doubtful for next year (his 3rd grade year) due to space limitations.

The pretty clear cut 2nd choice happens to be a K-8 Catholic School in the same town, but there are a few details specific to the school I should probably mention:
1) Their academic record is pretty darn sparkling. Actually has higher SAT scores than our 1st choice and appears to be pretty exemplary by most all other available measures too.
2) The school is in its first year as a Catholic-run, secular-staffed school. The Sisters of Immaculata, who had staffed the school for the whole 36 years of its existence were withdrawn after the 04-05 school year (shortage of teachers in the order apparently). That means that the school is now staffed by both Catholic & non-Catholic lay persons.
3) There is, naturally, some religious instruction as part of the curriculum, but given that the current student body is less than 50% Catholic, the overall impression is that these areas are taught but not ... pushed I guess would be the word I'm looking for. (As an example, here's a snippet from the monthly newsletter concerning Lent Abstinence is a penitential practice consisting of
refraining from the consumption of meat. It is to be observed by all Catholics who are 14 years of age and older. Ash Wednesday, Good Friday and the
Fridays during Lent are days of abstinence. Parents are encouraged to see that children who are not bound by the obligation to fast and abstain are led to appreciate an authentic sense of penance.

As luck would have it, the only grade they have openings for currently happens to be the one he'll be entering, so this appears to be the most likely temporary solution. Probably needless to say to those who know me, I'm pretty doggoned Protestant & a far cry from being Catholic, so I'm not entirely comfortable with this situation but there's simply no question that the academics here are the only available option reasonably similiar to our first choice. There are several other private schools in the area but each is either below our academic goals or so far to the Christian Right that they would consider me a raging liberal or both.

So, in spite of the fact that it seems more & more like this is pretty much our only choice, I'm interested in hearing from those who experienced Catholic schools. Especially those who attended around this age, and even more especially any non-Catholics who attended Catholic school for academic/other reasons.

So ... whaddya got for me FOFC?

[cartman]

Well, I went through 13 years of Catholic school, from Kindergarten up through 12th grade. I had a mix of nuns, brothers, priests, and laypersons as my teachers. But I was raised Catholic, so the protestant piece I can't speak to. But I know we did have a lot of non-Catholics in our classes. In fact, one of my best friends from high school was Jewish.

As long as the school isn't run by the Jesuits, I don't think the religious studies will be that intense. The more intensive religion classes were reserved for when you were going for the Catholic sacraments, like First Communion and Confirmation, and these were always done through the church, and not at school.

On the flip side, since I only went to Catholic school, I don't have a frame of reference to compare it to public schools or other types of private schools. However, if there are other questions you have, I'll do my best to answer them.

[Vince]

I went to a Jesuit High School, so it's not quite the same...

...but even though I was taught many subjects by Jesuit Priests, religion was never really forced on me. I had to take a religious studies class or three, but it was more learning about the subject matter than partaking in it. I was born and raised Roman Catholic, though I am quite the agnostic now, and I was very apathetic towards religion in High School. Overall, I'd say that what little input I could give you is that even had my religion differed completely from that which the school taught, I don't think it would have been a major problem.

MAJOR EDIT -- Yeah, I kind of forgot about the compulsory masses we had to attend at times. Probably...3 times a year? I was so busy not paying attention while they were going on, I sort of forgot about them. :)

[Franklinnoble]

I went to two different private Catholic schools as a kid, up through the 6th grade. I was raised Methodist, and currently consider myself a non-denominational Bible-based Christian.

I had no problem with the Catholic schools I attended. I wasn't molested, or even hit on, by the priests or nuns there (in case you're wondering). There was a mix of secular and Catholic teachers there.

The education was definately better than what I got later in public schools. Smaller classrooms, more discipline, and generally a more positive learning environment. So, if it's the best academic choice for your son, I wouldn't worry about the religious implications. Yes, I went to mass on Fridays, but they didn't try to convert me or anything.

[Easy Mac]

The good thing is that the catholic church probably lines up pretty well with the views your teaching your kid.

[st.cronin]

Catholic elementary and secondary schools once were the best schools in the country. I suspect that for the most part they're still pretty good.

[Crapshoot]

Went to Angilican (or was it Catholic ?) school in India - so this may be way off base, but other than the Lord's prayer in the morning, the religious parts were minimal - on Friday, the Christian kids went off to chapel and we went to "Moral Science". Better education- have faith in your kid to filter the religion from the rest. :D

[Icy]

My experience is exactly like Vince's one, but in Spain in my case.

I went to a catholic elementary school not because me or my parents were specially believers but because the discipline and specially the education was way better than at the public ones. We had religious acts from time to time, but not brain washing at all. Also when i went later to a public secondary school (sadly that one only had elementary) my education level was above the average there and it was easy for me to end with a very good grade not having to study a lot.

I'm a non believer/agnostic right now but i have a big respect for the teachers i had there and i will consider that school for my incoming baby in the future.

[Crapshoot]

Hell, our school was run by "Brothers' or "Fathers" - I forgot what the term was. I left in 7th grade, but it was a damn good school. The teachers hit the kids if need be, something that probably wouldn't be kosher at all here.

[Klinglerware]

I think academic quality is variable depending on the school. Personally, I thought that instruction in elementary school was geared towards average students (though this is probably a function of the school I went to). I actually wished that I went to the public school in my district, as they had a very strong GT program.

As others mentioned, the order that runs the school does factor in to the overall educational/religious philosophy of the school. As someone mentioned, Jesuit schools will tend to offer intense coursework, especially in religion and theology, but that may not be such a bad thing since Jesuits are also known for being very rigorous academic thinkers. But the issue of theology coursework doesn't really matter until the kid reaches high school.

As for my experience in elementary school (I went at a time when the old guard nuns were transitioning out and lay people were transitioning in), religion classes took up a minority of the day. Much of it is very light in the younger grades but in later grades involved memorizing a lot of canned definitions whose full meanings weren't fully taught until high school (e.g., "The pope is the vicar of Christ" and other tidbits the average 4th grader can't fully understand).

Finally, to belabor a previous point, religious instruction (due to the diversity of philosophy within the church) was all over the place. There were old school nuns who demanded rote memorization, young whipper-snappers teaching (believe it or not) liberation theology, anti-abortion activist guest speakers, and other teachers who would require that you do volunteer work (soup kitchens, etc.). Looking back, it's unbelievable how inconsistent the message was...

Edit -
Oh, and interestingly enough, sex education at both the elementary and high school levels was actually pretty solid. (Except for the time in 5th grade when the teacher was too embarrassed to lecture on sexual intercourse so she made us read the passages on our own). My girlfriend didn't have any sex ed (or drivers ed, but that's another story), and she went to public school.

[Draft Dodger]

I went to a Christian school for K and 1st grade (I don't know the denomination, but I know it wasn't Methodist, which was how we were raised). It really was just a matter of it being much better than the pitiful public school. I don't really remember any religious aspects of the school - other than the paddle they would (rarely) use on you if you misbehaved.

[Vince]

Man, I went to public school until high school and I must have had three different sex ed courses while at the same two schools. It was borderline absurd.

[oykib]

I went to Catholic grade school but am no Catholic. It's much better for youngsters than public school. One of the big difference is that kids learn to do what they are told (uniforms and the like).

[JonInMiddleGA]

The good thing is that the catholic church probably lines up pretty well with the views your teaching your kid.

???

Is that for me? Or for one of the other posters in the thread?

'Cause if it's for me, you're pretty far off the mark on that one.

Me & the Catholic Church aren't in absolute disagreement on everything under the sun but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want to claim me on a number of issues.

Out of curiosity, I Googled a bit & found what www.catholic.com refers to as
"THE FIVE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES" ... and we're pretty much in adamant disagreement on four of the five
http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp

[finkenst]

i attended catholic schools for 13 years (k-12). and thank god as the public schools in dayton, oh, were hell....

having said that, i don't remember too intense religious instruction except for first communion and confirmation classes...and even then it wasn't that bad.

We went to mass about 5-6 times a year...

All saints' Day, Immaculate Conception, Ascension, Last days of school, and some other 'random' times.

I had (and still have) friends that are protestant and catholic. i don't recall it *ever* being an issue and, really, the only difference i can recall is they didn't go up for communion at mass.

in a strange but true, i learned more about the old and new testament my frist year at college and i took those classes from a baptist minister, iirc.

maybe he was methodist.. the classes were at the baptist student center.

[cartman]

???

Is that for me? Or for one of the other posters in the thread?

'Cause if it's for me, you're pretty far off the mark on that one.

Me & the Catholic Church aren't in absolute disagreement on everything under the sun but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want to claim me on a number of issues.

Out of curiosity, I Googled a bit & found what www.catholic.com refers to as
"THE FIVE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES" ... and we're pretty much in adamant disagreement on four of the five
http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp


I can definitely say that politics were never an issue in the classes I took. The worst were the student council elections. I got censured for my slogan "Don't be a fag, vote for GAG" (GAG are my initials, 3rd generation). But I still won. :) Well, it wasn't my official slogan, but once it got out, there was no stopping it.

I did have a nut job as my high school freshman religion teacher. He had a hand puppet that he used, and his dad was killed by terrorists in Turkey. I think that had a lot to do with his odd nature. He claimed that the day after his dad died, the stump of the fig tree in their back yard suddenly became a whole tree bearing fruit. Later that year, we kidnapped the hand puppet for ransom. During this time, he asked us all to look for clues to the puppet's disappearance in Jackson Browne songs. We then took a video of the puppet tied to a car tire which then did burnouts. He ended up getting fired the next year for making unwanted advances towards a senior girl.

But my senior religion teacher was great. He was an Episcopalian priest who wanted to become a Catholic priest. There was a slight problem, though. He was married with two kids. But eventually, he got special permission from John Paul II, and he became a Catholic priest.

[Glengoyne]

I want to send my kids to Catholic schools. I'm a protestant, of that there can be little doubt. The deal is, I know the Catholic schools I'm interested in have high academic standards. So that is a plus. There is also this fear I have of non Catholic private schools. That is that a lot of us protestants are fucking Wigged out, and there is no telling how much clap-trap would be shoved down their throats by some over zealous, probably unqualified, teacher.

My wife, however can't seem to resolve the Protestant v. Catholic issue. She is a long time Baptist, I came to it through marriage. As a result we're giving the public school a shot for Kindergarten.

[cartman]

I want to send my kids to Catholic schools. I'm a protestant, of that there can be little doubt. The deal is, I know the Catholic schools I'm interested in have high academic standards. So that is a plus. There is also this fear I have of non Catholic private schools. That is that a lot of us protestants are fucking Wigged out, and there is no telling how much clap-trap would be shoved down their throats by some over zealous, probably unqualified, teacher.

My wife, however can't seem to resolve the Protestant v. Catholic issue. She is a long time Baptist, I came to it through marriage. As a result we're giving the public school a shot for Kindergarten.

Transsubstantiation isn't discussed until First Communion, and then, it's only for the Catholic kids that are studying it.

[oliegirl]

I am Lutheran and attended Catholic school for 2 1/2 years...I loved it. We went to mass once a week and although I had to attend, I wasn't forced to participate in the prayers or communion if I wasn't comfortable with it. The academics of the school far outweighed any of the issues we might have had and it was overall a great experience.

I think in this situation, it's pretty much what you make it. If you talk to the administration and make it clear that you aren't Catholic and don't want your son to be forced into anything, they will listen and understand - especially when they have so many other families in the same position. If you stress about it and constantly worry about it, then it will make you miserable. But if you trust your son and the school, then I don't think it should be something you have to focus on.

[Mac Howard]

???

Is that for me? Or for one of the other posters in the thread?

'Cause if it's for me, you're pretty far off the mark on that one.

Me & the Catholic Church aren't in absolute disagreement on everything under the sun but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want to claim me on a number of issues.

Out of curiosity, I Googled a bit & found what www.catholic.com refers to as
"THE FIVE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES" ... and we're pretty much in adamant disagreement on four of the five
http://www.catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp

I was going to pass the thread by until this post, Jon. My own experience suggests that you need to know how much stress the school puts on Catholic dogma as my reading of you is that you won't like hearing your son object to your views because of the school's teaching.

I say, through my experience, as my position is similar though moved on one position. I'm agnosrtic and by far the best school for my 5 year old daughter in this area was an Anglican school. I differ from their religious and often political views as much as you will those of the Catholic school.

I chose to send my daughter to the school - on the basis that no other school in the area could give her anything like the same quality of education and hoping that the religious stuff would be minor. But I sometimes regret that. She's now ten and some of the stuff she comes out with is unacceptable to me. I find myself wanting to "correct" the views she expresses but not wanting to undermine her teachers. Occasionally it creates a space between us which I regret.

In my case, the school pushes religion far more than I had anticipated. I think you need to know to what extent the Catholic school does the same. I think you said that 50% of pupils were not Catholic so that would suggest there may not be too much to worry about. It might be worthwhile contacting someone at the school to discuss the matter if that isn't going to affect your son's eligibility.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was going to pass the thread by until this post, Jon. My own experience suggests that you need to know how much stress the school puts on Catholic dogma as my reading of you is that you won't like hearing your son object to your views because of the school's teaching. ... It might be worthwhile contacting someone at the school to discuss the matter if that isn't going to affect your son's eligibility.

Thanks Mac, for both the input & for giving me a good chance to expand a little on the latter part of your post.

We've talked with this particular school several times over the past six months, and they've consistently been very open & reassuring about the whole "we're not Catholic" thing. To some degree I imagine that is a matter of practicality -- they're in a position of really needing non-Catholic students to keep the school viable. It's a simple matter of numbers, there just aren't that many Catholics in the area & they've struggled to keep the Catholic high school (which I gather is separate but related) open for several years now because of lack of interest/participation. This school is basically the only "feeder program" it has.

That said, they also give the impression that they're pretty into the whole diversity aspect of it. Maybe that's a deep-seated belief, maybe that's pragmatism, I can't really say why, but for example their website pretty prominently mentions that the student body includes members of a variety of denominations including "AME, Anglican, Anglican Catholic, Baptist, Buddhist, Christian, Episcopalian, Hindu, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Southern Baptist." Same website also helped my wife & I solve (we think) another bit of puzzle. Some numbers didn't match up until we thought it through a bit. The website & all their other literature mentions that the "student body is 80% Catholic" but in our most recent contacts with them they've been very specific about the fact that "just over 50% of our families are Protestant". Our figuring says that "ah, I get it now. Most of your Protestant/non-Catholic families have one child enrolled, while your Catholic families have multiple children enrolled". It sort of makes sense, especially in an area where there are a number of upwardly mobile younger parents with younger children (they simply haven't had time to have multiple kids yet).

The school is also in a college town, one that's pretty liberal (at least by Southeastern U.S. standards, YMMV ;) ). "Diversity" isn't just a lifestyle, it's also a popular buzzword, so I can easily believe that there's a concerted effort to attract a variety of students from different backgrounds there. It just sort of fits the personality of the area that they would do this.

As an aside, our son is pretty even-keeled about the Catholic/non-Catholic aspect of the whole situation. He is (doubtless to the surprise of some FOFC'ers ;)) a very tolerant & accepting kid. Without any prompting from us, he was (I'm sad & sorry to say) one of only a couple of kids in his class who really went out of his way to welcome a new student in his class who was of Middle Eastern descent. His thumbnail take on the situation? "He's in the second grade & has lived here his whole life, I don't think he's involved in any of that terrorist stuff".

Sidebar: that student wasn't singled out for being picked on or anything like that, there just wasn't much in the way of welcome/inclusion coming his way. My son & another boy picked up on that I guess & went out of their way to make sure he was included in their play, etc. Eventually, a parental job change saw the family leave the area, but we were pretty proud of the way Will handled things.

Anyway, he seems to have a certain spirit of adventure about the diversity aspect of the current prospect, although he's otherwise very hesitant about the whole new town, new school aspect of things. One point that he's pretty adamant about is not wanting "one of those Christian schools". Ironically, he hasn't really connected that the ostensibly secular school he's always attended is, for virtually all intents & purposes, very much a "Christian school".
He just knows that there's some pretty obnoxious hyper-religious-right kids in his class & he wants no part of a school full of them. Pretty insightful, considering that his parents have about the same take on those parents & feel about the same way.

In any event, I guess the bottom line is that the school seems to be even-keeled about the role of religion in their curriculum, we're cautiously optimistic that's the case at least. And, as with any school, some things you probably won't know for sure until you're on the inside. Right now, we're proceeding with some optimism while realisitically keeping an eye open for any red flags that might come up.

[CamEdwards]

I went to Catholic school from 8th grade on. I was so non-Catholic when I started that I actually took communion during the first mandatory mass because I didn't know any better. The priest was cool enough to let it slide and talk to me privately about it later.

I think every school is different, but I loved my high school. I still keep in touch with two of my English teachers because they were so great.

[albionmoonlight]

Unfortunately, Jon, the question is so school dependent that it will be hard to get a general answer from anyone. One of the big things working to your advantage is that the school is under 50% Catholic. That means that they have to understand and accomodate lots of non-Catholics.

Also, the fact that it is one of the best academic schools in the area means that you will not be the only non-Catholic parent that held your nose a bit at the "damn, dirty Papists" and sent your kid anyway--and they have to understand that, too.

So, based on a couple of factors, it seems to me that a lot of your concerns will come out OK. But there is really no way to know for sure without talking to people there and seeing what it is really like.