The Greatest #41 Ever

[QuikSand]

Okay... a stab at a new discussion concept here at FOFC. Lots of sports fans here, plenty for football, and other sports. I drew a number basically out of a hat, and pose this question to FOFC:

Who is the greatest athlete or sportsman ever to wear the number 41?

Football is fine, as are any other sports. If you wear or use a number (on your jersey, your car, or whatever) then you're eligible. If you wore/used more than one number during your career, then you're only eligible for consideration based on the time you wore the number in question. Matters of "importance of the sport itself" and "athleticism versus performance in the sport" are left to the audience.

I haven't come up with a great way to settle this -- maybe after a day of discussion, we will conduct a poll with the top figures receiving support. The person who has most visibly advocated for the eventual winner gets to draw the next number, and run the next thread. That seems like a reasonable plan to me.

So... who was the greatest ever to wear the number 41? Make your case.

[QuikSand]

I have friends who like to play this game at bars... and while I'm usually okay at discussing the players themselves, I am just dreadful at remembing jersey numbers, especially in sports other than football. So, please forgive me if there's a monumental figure out there who wore 41 and dwarfs all competition... it will come as news to me, i assure you.

[Anthony]

i think Glen Rice, SF from the NBA, wore 41. if so, he wins.

one of the deadliest 3 point shooters in the game.

[albionmoonlight]

Someone would discover/remember this at some point, so I thought that I would post it for everyone.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/ultimatescorecard

[Johnny93g]

Jason Allison

[QuikSand]

So, if ESPN has already done this (and it's no surprise that someone has)... do we need some sort of twist to make this worth doing here?

Maybe the most underrated? The most physically talented, rather than necessarily acomplished? Our "favorite" sports figure, rather than necessarily the greatest? Something along those lines?

I'm open to general discussion here, if there's fear that an "official" list might serve to dampen our discussions.

[albionmoonlight]

Dola--

For my money, you need to go with Dirk Nowitzki here. There are no real standout 41s out there--no first ballot hall of famers, so I don't think that we should hold the fact that Dirk is still playing against him. Though he is a top five player, I think that his impact is better measured by what he means to the game as a whole.

He's managed to open up the NBA to a European audience, really turning it into a international game. And, if you look at the last few international competitions, you can see that this isn't really America's game anymore anyway.

In 20 years, we will look at Dirk as the forerunner of a totally new, worldwide, type of basketball. Where versitle seven footers with names we can't pronounce are almost commonplace.

Talentwise, he's good enough for this conversation. He is one of the top five players in the league, and he is still getting better. He's a seven footer who can play facing the basket, and can legitimately play four positions on the floor.

Finally, Dirk has impacted the game by causing lots of otherwise marginal Euros to get drafted based mainly on the fact that someone called them "the next Nowitzki." That should count for a little something.

[Ramzavail]

definitely Tom Seaver.

[albionmoonlight]

So, if ESPN has already done this (and it's no surprise that someone has)... do we need some sort of twist to make this worth doing here?

Maybe the most underrated? The most physically talented, rather than necessarily acomplished? Our "favorite" sports figure, rather than necessarily the greatest? Something along those lines?

I'm open to general discussion here, if there's fear that an "official" list might serve to dampen our discussions.

Maybe the best of the ones that ESPN didn't pick? That would open up things like #99 and #3 to reasonable debate--whereas now they are not even worth discussing.

The disadvantage is that no one likes to make a "second best" list.

[Ramzavail]

albion - Tom Seaver was a first ballot hall of famer and I'd argue that Drazen Petrovic did more for international b-ball than Dirk.

[Anthony]

perhaps everyone compile a starting lineup in a given sport and everyone has to use a guy with a different jersey #. that is, once "Dirk Nowitzki" is taken, then Glen Rice can't be used. Once John Stockton is selected, then Walt Frazier can't be used.

then we compare who has the best team.

[albionmoonlight]

albion - Tom Seaver was a first ballot hall of famer

Oh, well that knocks out the premise on which my argument was based. I saw from the picture that Seaver pitched for a New York team and just assumed that he was overrated.

[stevew]

Glen Rice had a 2-3 year stretch where he was absolutely unbelievable. Then he proceeded to go to the Knicks and Lakers and had his career die.

[Anthony]

Glen Rice had a 2-3 year stretch where he was absolutely unbelievable. Then he proceeded to go to the Knicks and Lakers and had his career die.

but before that 2-3 year stretch he was still an awesome player. there was a stretch that outside of Scottie Pippen, Rice was one of the best SF's for the 90's. it's a shame he went to the Knicks. when he was with the Heat and then the Hornets, wow. deadly shooter.

[WSUCougar]

http://64.17.171.58/images/osborn41.jpg

[Huckleberry]

I'll take Eddie Mathews over Tom Seaver.

[VPI97]

Tom Seaver without a doubt. To support my argument, here are pics of my son wearing the Tom Seaver uniform that I wore when I was five.

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/VPI97/picture_0301.jpg http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/VPI97/picture_0298.jpg

[Ramzavail]

awesome jersey.

[cartman]

From the Dallas Cowboys, #41, strong safety Charlie Waters.

[MIJB#19]

Someone would discover/remember this at some point, so I thought that I would post it for everyone.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/ultimatescorecard
[start bitching]
I'm wondering what the thinking was to select of Pele for #10 and the inclusion of only two other soccer player into the entire candidates lists (Maradona okay, but Beckham and Mia Hamm?). Either include one for every qualifying # (range 1 to about 25) or make it US big4 only. I know, it's ESPN2 and it's US biased, but especially the latter makes me think it would have made more sense to make a list per sport, or Big4 only and maybe after that compare them.
[end bitching]

Carry on with te discussion. I'll dig up a list of best soccer player per number, if y'all like to see that. :rolleyes:

[Chas in Cinti]

Indiana Hoosiers Fullback (Only Rose Bowl Team),
The Late Terry Cole

Regards,
Chas

[Ramzavail]

[start bitching]
I'm wondering what the thinking was to select of Pele for #10 and the inclusion of only two other soccer player into the entire candidates lists (Maradona okay, but Beckham and Mia Hamm?). Either include one for every qualifying # (range 1 to about 25) or make it US big4 only. I know, it's ESPN2 and it's US biased, but especially the latter makes me think it would have made more sense to make a list per sport, or Big4 only and maybe after that compare them.
[end bitching]

Carry on with te discussion. I'll dig up a list of best soccer player per number, if y'all like to see that. :rolleyes:

I'd like to see that list.

[cuervo72]

Seaver immediately popped to mind for me too. And it is a shame that ESPN did this already, could have been a good series.

[KevinNU7]

Since when do people around here take ESPNs word as gold. I say keep this going. I think a new thread should be created with a more controversal number to start. There just aren't too many amazing 41s to breed a good discussion.

I say a new thread for Big4 only and start with the number 4: Bobby Orr, Lou Gehrig, Brett Favre! Now there is a debate!

[Ramzavail]

#8 - Ripken, Berra, Aikman, Kobe Bryant, Steve Young

[Vince]

Since when do people around here take ESPNs word as gold. I say keep this going. I think a new thread should be created with a more controversal number to start. There just aren't too many amazing 41s to breed a good discussion.

I say a new thread for Big4 only and start with the number 4: Bobby Orr, Lou Gehrig, Brett Favre! Now there is a debate! I like Brett Favre and all, but he's got nothing on either Orr or Gehrig.

[Ryan S]

Randy Johnson wears 41 with the Yankees.

[Huckleberry]

I like Brett Favre and all, but he's got nothing on either Orr or Gehrig.

I don't know about that. I've heard reckless forcing of the football into double- and triple-coverage referred to as "Brett Favre's Disease" for what it's worth.

:p

[QuikSand]

Maybe you do a Mount Rushmore of each number? Might that get you down into more interesting "fringe" players?

[primelord]

but before that 2-3 year stretch he was still an awesome player. there was a stretch that outside of Scottie Pippen, Rice was one of the best SF's for the 90's. it's a shame he went to the Knicks. when he was with the Heat and then the Hornets, wow. deadly shooter.

Rice was borderline great for one year. He had one year where he was in the top 5 in scoring. Sure he was a great 3 point shooter, but so was Craig Hodges and there is no way we would discuss him here. Rice was always awful on defense, could not create his own shot, and could not get his teammates involved in a game. Certainly a great shooter, but not a great player.

[Bonegavel]

Keith Byars.

[bhlloy]

Going back to the ESPN poll, seems very baseball heavy and hockey light. Dominik Hasek not getting #39 is a complete joke (and they even ranked him fourth). I know hockey isn't as popular, but if they are going to include the four sports mainly then it needs to be subjective.

I really like HA's idea as well, a FOFC pro jersey number draft would be a lot of fun.

[Ramzavail]

Going back to the ESPN poll, seems very baseball heavy and hockey light. Dominik Hasek not getting #39 is a complete joke (and they even ranked him fourth). I know hockey isn't as popular, but if they are going to include the four sports mainly then it needs to be subjective.

I really like HA's idea as well, a FOFC pro jersey number draft would be a lot of fun.

I don't think the notibles are in order. Case in point #55, Mutombo over Derrick Brooks?

Secondly, he was the best overall hitting catcher before Piazza and he won THREE MVPs.

I wouldn't give it to Hasek here either.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I played basketball for my school in fifth grade. My number was 41. So I vote for myself, although I scored zero points, committed one turnover, and committed one foul. I only appeared in two games. Still, I fucking vote for myself, and I don't want anyone arguing with me over this one.

[samifan24]

My favorite player of all-time, Charles Nagy.

[Ramzavail]

I played basketball for my school in fifth grade. My number was 41. So I vote for myself, although I scored zero points, committed one turnover, and committed one foul. I only appeared in two games. Still, I fucking vote for myself, and I don't want anyone arguing with me over this one.

Sounds like Yinka Dare's first season with the Nets.

[EagleFan]

Chris Bates

Very gutsy for a little guy and quick as hell.

[bhlloy]

I don't think the notibles are in order. Case in point #55, Mutombo over Derrick Brooks?

Secondly, he was the best overall hitting catcher before Piazza and he won THREE MVPs.

I wouldn't give it to Hasek here either.

I respectfully disagree. Hasek has six Vezina's and was the unanimous league MVP twice (won both MVP trophies) plus with Patrick Roy he pretty much changed the way the position was played. But that is why lists like this are so much fun

Speaking of Roy, I would also be pissed at his exclusion, but you can't really argue about Larry Bird :)

[cuervo72]

Keith Byars.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

With honorable mention for his damned foot.

[sachmo71]

Brent Gilchrist, Dallas Stars

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/players/data05/00001905.html

[Vince]

Maybe you do a Mount Rushmore of each number? Might that get you down into more interesting "fringe" players? I like this suggestion a lot.

[MIJB#19]

I'd like to see that list.
I tried it, but it just doesn't fit so well in the soccer tradition to remember players by number, it seems. From what I could find, most old times greats played with #9 or #10, with a few exceptions being Franz Beckenbauer (#5), Gerd Muller (#13), Johan Cruijff (#14) and Garrincha (#7), and modern day big names like Cafu (#2), Paolo Maldini (#3) and Robert Carlos (#6). Also, Marco van Basten was #12 in Euro'88 and Zinedine Zidane was #21 for a while, but they are basically #9 and #10 players too. And keepers almost always wear #1. For #4 I didn't find an all-time great, while at #8 it was not easy to choose between Hristo Stoitchkov and Carlos Dunga. At #9, I was thinking Ronaldo or Bobby Charlton, for #10 Pele or Diego Maradona (But Ferenc Puskas, Alfredo Di Stefano and Michel Platini could be worthy replacements).

[Ramzavail]

#18 Jurgen Klinsmann

[Ramzavail]

dola - right it doesn't fit because rarely do players use numbers over 20 or 25.