Have we been invaded? [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

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Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 06:06 PM

Tens of thousands of illegals openly marching in the downtown areas of major cities, waving Mexican flags and chanting 'Mexico! Mexico!" One of the organizations of the event, La Rosa (the Race) openly advocates returning California to Mexican soveriegnty. Why is this not an invasion?

flounder

03-25-2006, 06:08 PM

I think you mean La Raza (the Race) not La Rosa (the little pink one).

Crapshoot

03-25-2006, 06:10 PM

I say - lets go kill all the brown people! Lead on, brother Bubba - you can show us the light!

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 06:27 PM

I say - lets go kill all the brown people! Lead on, brother Bubba - you can show us the light!

Here's your mistake and your own prejudice, friend. You assume that everyone and anyone wanting the laws of this country respected concerning immigration are all racist white men and only those violating these laws are Latinos (what you call 'brown'). Facts are quite different. Many Irish are here illegally who would also be effected, as are many whites from Russia and other central European countries.

And those U.S. citizens who would 1. either like to work those jobs that go to illegals or 2. would receive higher wages for those jobs if the cheap labor pool of illegal immigrants was dried up are not all white men.

So, amazingly Crapshoot, you have not only shown yourself to be the narrow-minded bigot you like to call others, but you are also supporting those big, bad corporate businessmen that want all that cheap labor. Quite an accomplishment on your part.:eek:

gstelmack

03-25-2006, 06:31 PM

cartman

03-25-2006, 06:31 PM

Well, you specifically mentioned Mexicans in your post Bubba, so you can't use the Irish, Russian, etc. to later accuse someone of something. It's obvious you are a product of poor debate education.

Were we "invaded" when there were thousands of protestors in Seattle for the G8 conference?

No.

Were we "invaded" when there were thousands of protestors in Chicago for the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago?

No.

Were we invaded when half a million people gathered in Washington DC to protest segreation laws and hear Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech?

No.

Your xenophobia borders on the laughable, and it is hard to take any points you make seriously based on your arguments and the items you use to support those arguements.

Karlifornia

03-25-2006, 06:33 PM

Well, as a Californian, I am mortified at the very real possibility of a Mexican militia overtaking us. We could wake up one morning and all be speaking that funny mexican language. I'd write a very angry letter to Governor Mencia.

st.cronin

03-25-2006, 06:33 PM

I predict that this thread never exceeds the Maximum Football thread, either in views or in posts.

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 06:34 PM

Bubba, if this is true, will you provide a link to a new story. I don't see anything at a scale this large at all. I doubt very seriously that 10,000 illegal immigrants are marching in protest, risking the chance to be arrested by border patrol. Otherwise cracking down on this would be way easier.

clintl

03-25-2006, 06:39 PM

While I am 100% in agreement that illegals are doing jobs residents aren't willing / can't afford to do, I don't think that means we should be legitimizing illegal immigration. It means we should change the minimum wage laws to allow for these types of jobs and improve the regular immigration process (something Bush has been talking about).

But this blackmailing that somehow being against illegal immigration is being racist against Hispanics is completely ridiculous.

I think if we are going to have truly successful immigration reform, we need to dramatically increase the amount of legal immigration from poor countries, and we need to crack down on businesses that hire illegal immigrants. In my mind, the businesses that support illegal immigration are more responsible for the problem than the immigrants coming here for a better life.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 06:43 PM

http://drudgereport.com Just click on the numerous threads on the site. ABC news called them 'illegals.'

I also love the fact that Mexico, which has huge oil reserves among a wealth of other natural resources and should be among the richest countries on earth always gets a free pass for creating alot of this problem in the first place. If they were not a corrupt socialist oligarchy we would probably have alot of illegal American immigrants wanting to work in Mexico.

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 06:48 PM

Bubba, please get the information correct. The first story I read said "immigrant rights advocates" not "illegal immigrants". There is definitely a huge difference.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 06:54 PM

Bubba, please get the information correct. The first story I read said "immigrant rights advocates" not "illegal immigrants". There is definitely a huge difference.

Every official and unofficial estimate on numbers of illegals puts them in the millions, whether they are marching or not.

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 06:54 PM

Every official and unofficial estimate on numbers of illegals puts them in the millions, whether they are marching or not.

Sure, if you make it up.

cartman

03-25-2006, 06:56 PM

Every official and unofficial estimate on numbers of illegals puts them in the millions, whether they are marching or not.

Your debating and fact finding skills are severly lacking. You start off by arguing that tens of thousands of illegal aliens are openly marching in the streets, and if we should consider this an invasion.

Now you are saying, well, there are a bunch of illegal aliens, and it doesn't matter if they are marching or not. What was the point of your original post, then?

Thanks for playing, please try again.

Cap Ologist

03-25-2006, 06:57 PM

I think the invasion was planned by Maximum Invasion software. It allows total customizability for formations, weapons and propaganda. Unfortunately, they launched their invasion before enough 3rd party utilities had been made to differentiate between illegal immigrants and illegal imigrant advocates. However, we should all be alarmed at the thought of an invading army able to teleport to various locations.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 06:57 PM

I think you mean La Raza (the Race) not La Rosa (the little pink one).

Yeah, your right, La Raza...the organization the mayor of L.A. is or was a member of.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 06:59 PM

Sure, if you make it up.

So your saying the number is not in the millions? :rolleyes:

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 07:00 PM

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 07:02 PM

Your debating and fact finding skills are severly lacking. You start off by arguing that tens of thousands of illegal aliens are openly marching in the streets, and if we should consider this an invasion.

Now you are saying, well, there are a bunch of illegal aliens, and it doesn't matter if they are marching or not. What was the point of your original post, then?

Thanks for playing, please try again.

ABC news called them 'marching illegals." Different news reports on the actual mixes of legal/illegal marchers. I'm sure we'll get a more accurate breakdown in the near future.

gstelmack

03-25-2006, 07:02 PM

There's no need to deliberately mis-inform in order to be persuasive. Especially if your cold busted, who is going to trust the rest of your argument?

I learned that in speech class, I'm guessing that sort of qualifies me for some debate skillz. :)

From cnn.com (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/25/immigration/index.html):

Senators must also decide whether more than 11 million people already in the United States illegally will be given a chance to earn legal status -- a process critics dismiss as "amnesty."

Dutch

03-25-2006, 07:03 PM

Every official and unofficial estimate on numbers of illegals puts them in the millions, whether they are marching or not.

There's no need to deliberately mis-inform in order to be persuasive. Especially if your cold busted, who is going to trust the rest of your argument?

I learned that in speech class, I'm guessing that sort of qualifies me for some debate skillz. :)

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 07:03 PM

Eaglesfan27

03-25-2006, 07:03 PM

There's no need to deliberately mis-inform in order to be persuasive. Especially if your cold busted, who is going to trust the rest of your argument?

I learned that in speech class, I'm guessing that sort of qualifies me for some debate skillz. :)

I completely agree. Also, this thread should be labelled POL as it is another piece of political crap from Bubba. Also, how the heck does anyone know who is and isn't an illegal alien without questioning each of them. It isn't like anyone has "Illegal Alien" stamped on their forehead.

Tigercat

03-25-2006, 07:05 PM

We had some probably illegals working on our roof today. Oh no, they've annexed our house! Someone come and liberate us!

(*Does this mean I must now abide by government mandated siestas? Wouldn't mind that so much...)

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 07:06 PM

There's no need to deliberately mis-inform in order to be persuasive. Especially if your cold busted, who is going to trust the rest of your argument?

I learned that in speech class, I'm guessing that sort of qualifies me for some debate skillz. :)

Tens of thousands of marchers in L.A. and you or anyone are going to try and stand on them not being many or mostly illegals? Good luck with that one!

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 07:06 PM

cartman

03-25-2006, 07:08 PM

Tens of thousands of marchers in L.A. and you or anyone are going to try and stand on them not being many or mostly illegals? Good luck with that one!

You just destroyed your own argument, and you don't even realize it. Brilliant!

Tigercat

03-25-2006, 07:09 PM

Hope it leaks...buy American!

Umm, people around here are lucky to get roof workers AT ALL. We don't have the luxury of being picky. Most contracters change their numbers monthly so they won't be overwhelmed by calls and people begging them for a new roof job. And besides, all the roofers are using illegals. Which are better than inexperienced local labor anyway, because the illegals are more use to construction work of this nature.

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:11 PM

For st.cronin: http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_banghead.gif (javascript:emoticon(':banghead:'))

cartman

03-25-2006, 07:11 PM

I also like the term 'walkout' of students at various schools in and around the L.A. area to join the protest. Wonder how many of the students were 'inspired' by their liberal activist teachers.

I'm not aware of any schools that are in session on a Saturday. Care to show some supporting evidence to the contrary?

Tigercat

03-25-2006, 07:12 PM

I also like the term 'walkout' of students at various schools in and around the L.A. area to join the protest. Wonder how many of the students were 'inspired' by their liberal activist teachers.

Don't forget the commie teachers, those are the worst. I can't even count how many public school and college teachers that forced me to sing the Chinese national anthem.

Edit: Why does the timestamp bug love me all of a sudden? Ugh.

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:12 PM

For Bubba: http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_dunce.gif (javascript:emoticon(':dunce:'))

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 07:13 PM

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:15 PM

I love how it's the "liberal activist" teachers that started the whole protest. :rolleyes:

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 07:17 PM

I love how it's the "liberal activist" teachers that started the whole protest. :rolleyes:

Who said anything about them 'starting' it? I was commenting on all those 'spontaneous' student walkouts from schools to join in. Guess only I have to be accurate to not be called on it around here, but no one really pays attention to your likes anyways.

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:18 PM

And people think jbmagic is fucking annoying. Geesh! :rolleyes:

cartman

03-25-2006, 07:19 PM

Who said anything about them 'starting' it? I was commenting on all those 'spontaneous' student walkouts from schools to join in. Guess only I have to be accurate to not be called on it around here.

And I asked, what schools are in session on a Saturday? I would assume that classes have to be scheduled for students to walk out on them?

You haven't reached even the shadow of the accuracy bar yet.

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:20 PM

I also love how Bubba goes right back to the same "it's the public skewl, doodz" when his argument goes to the shitter.

st.cronin

03-25-2006, 07:22 PM

For st.cronin: http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_banghead.gif (javascript:emoticon(':banghead:'))

Thanks!

cartman

03-25-2006, 07:23 PM

So we've gone from being invaded by gangs of illegal immigrants, to the horror of teachers encouraging truancy on a Saturday.

You sure know how to make a point, Bubba.

Franklinnoble

03-25-2006, 07:24 PM

Personally, I like the system the way it is.

The United States economy hums along with cheap illegal labor, and the immigration is kept mostly in check due to lightly enforced border control. The Mexicans are just happy to be here, and I'm just happy to have someone fix my roof in a competent fashion for a competitive price.

The protesters seem to get this. They're only pissed off because there are some folks trying to tighten the laws, which we don't really need.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 07:26 PM

Cartman asked for some evidence that this occurred on a school day, but you failed to show us any, so I don't believe a damn thing that you've said. Go back to being a lurker. WE like you much better that way.:rolleyes: Have a nice life. Your useless, never say anything worthwhile good or bad so don't expect any responses in the future.

Also, anyone who always speaks for others...we...is usually suspect in many other regards anyways.

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:27 PM

Who said anything about them 'starting' it? I was commenting on all those 'spontaneous' student walkouts from schools to join in. Guess only I have to be accurate to not be called on it around here, but no one really pays attention to your likes anyways.

Cartman asked for some evidence that this occurred on a school day, but you failed to show us any, so I don't believe a damn thing that you've said. Go back to being a lurker. WE like you much better that way.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 07:27 PM

And I asked, what schools are in session on a Saturday? I would assume that classes have to be scheduled for students to walk out on them?

You haven't reached even the shadow of the accuracy bar yet.

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/8233518/detail.html Started on Friday. Hmmm, yes, your accuracy is all documented as well I see.

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 07:28 PM

And people think jbmagic is fucking annoying. Geesh! :rolleyes:

Good point duckman.

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:28 PM

Thanks!

No problem. :D

Greyroofoo

03-25-2006, 07:30 PM

Mexicans should stay in Mexico. However if they want to become citizens of the U.S., they should have the chance. I don't like the idea of waving the Mexican flag on U.S. soil however.

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 07:34 PM

And you can't debate yourself out of a wet paper sack and have the grammatical skills of my 8 year old.

Please don't compare him to your daughter please. You daughter could put up a way better arguement.

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 07:34 PM

Man this time stamp bug is ridiculous

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:35 PM

Your useless.....

And you can't debate yourself out of a wet paper sack and have the grammatical skills of my 8 year old.

Crapshoot

03-25-2006, 07:37 PM

For st.cronin: http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_banghead.gif (javascript:emoticon(':banghead:'))

I thought you wore that one out with Flasch ... :D

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 07:38 PM

Daughter? :eek:

lol....I meant child. I was talking with my daughter.

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:38 PM

Please don't compare him to your daughter please. You daughter could put up a way better arguement.

Daughter? :eek:

AENeuman

03-25-2006, 07:41 PM

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:41 PM

I thought you wore that one out with Flasch ... :D

I need to find a choking smiley for Flasch. :D

tanglewood

03-25-2006, 07:42 PM

Mexicans should stay in Mexico. However if they want to become citizens of the U.S., they should have the chance. I don't like the idea of waving the Mexican flag on U.S. soil however.

Good thing that Americans haven't been waving their flag in any foriegn countries lately!

The USA, quite literally, exists soley through immigration. And those original immigrants didn't consider themselves American even hundreds of years afterward! Isn't one of the basic concepts of American freedom that anyone can go and live in America in their own way and exercising their won beliefs, culture and heritige? Wasn't that why the Puritans first left for the New World?

And more troubling, why do people feel the need to homogenise all those who live in their nation? It can only boil down to fear of difference, or more often percieved difference. First it was the Germans, then the Irish, then the Itallians, then the Eastern Europeans and now it's Mexicans, perhaps in another couple of decades it will be South Americans or Arabs. Diversity and multiculturalism can only be encouraged, especially for a nation that (rightly or wrongly) is portrayed as insular and ignorant in world affairs.

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:42 PM

lol....I meant child. I was talking with my daughter.

For a second, I thought there was something that you knew that I didn't. :D

cartman

03-25-2006, 07:43 PM

Ok, so 6 schools in LA had some class disruptions yesterday, involving hundreds of students:

hxxp://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-protest25mar25,0,3312471.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Where does it intone that teachers were behind this?

As for an overall impact, it is minimal. Here is a page detailing the number of schools and students in the LA area:

hxxp://www.laalmanac.com/education/ed03.htm

According to that link, there are approximately 2000 schools, with over 1,000,000 students in the area. What happened yesterday doesn't even register as a blip, much less show a pervasive state of mind of teachers encouraging a walkout.

JonInMiddleGA

03-25-2006, 07:43 PM

Geez, if you ever want to see who the 'buddies' are, put a couple of folks on ignore and watch the postless names cluster together! Amazing!

LOL, I've seen that same effect numerous times, it's funny for a while but it does become pretty predictable after a bit (which kinda takes some of the chuckles out of it).

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 07:44 PM

Geez, if you ever want to see who the 'buddies' are, put a couple of folks on ignore and watch the postless names cluster together! Amazing!

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 07:44 PM

In my opinion, the borders should be shut down, period. No new immigration. Until we can help the people that are in this country LEGALLY, we shouldn't let anymore in.

Illegals weardown our school system, since we HAVE to educate children here illegally. We HAVE to medically treat illegals. Why illegals have any rights when they're in our country illegally to begin with is beyond me.

JonInMiddleGA

03-25-2006, 07:46 PM

Illegals weardown our school system, since we HAVE to educate children here illegally. We HAVE to medically treat illegals.

Two things which both desparately need to be changed ASAP.

cartman

03-25-2006, 07:50 PM

And I'm not the least bit bitter about it at all, just wondering how some think that they can openly break the laws in some areas and then not realize that is only eventually going to lead to many breaking laws in all areas. Can't pick and choose laws to follow.

According to your statement here, then the segregation laws would never have been overturned in the 1960s.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 07:50 PM

Two things which both desparately need to be changed ASAP.

I agree. One of the draws that brings illegals to our country is our laws protect them. Instead of doing what we should be doing when they are discovered, we instead cottle them and treat them and educate them.

It should not be the responsibility of this country to educate and treat citizens of other countries. I certainly do not want to pay for it with my tax money, but yet that is what we do. And yet I seem to remember there being a big to-do when Swartzeneggar vetoed a law that would allow illegals to have driver's licenses, when that should be apparent to everyone illegals are not "entitled" to ANYTHING from us, except a trip back to the border.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 07:50 PM

bw, i hope you realize that the same reason they can march and wave their flag is the same reason you can say they should all go back to where they came from

btw bw, other than making yourself more bitter, and making some people here more bitter towards you, i hope you at least treated "your" people with love and compassion today

Wonder what all those veterans that fought and died in all those foreign wars would think of the cities and streets of their home country being filled with people waving foreign flags in the advocacy of breaking our laws.

And I'm not the least bit bitter about it at all, just wondering how some think that they can openly break the laws in some areas and then not realize that is only eventually going to lead to many breaking laws in all areas. Can't pick and choose laws to follow.

cartman

03-25-2006, 07:52 PM

The magnetic pull of BW's tinfoil hat is influencing the timestamps of the posts.

duckman

03-25-2006, 07:53 PM

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 07:53 PM

According to your statement here, then the segregation laws would never have been overturned in the 1960s.

That's a silly analogy. What you're talking about was for equal treatment of all citizens of this country. We're talking about people who, by their very presence in this country consists of an illegal action. Two completely different things, and to compare them is ridiculous.

cartman

03-25-2006, 07:58 PM

That's a silly analogy. What you're talking about was for equal treatment of all citizens of this country. We're talking about people who, by their very presence in this country consists of an illegal action. Two completely different things, and to compare them is ridiculous.

Not necessarily. The segregation marches were to overtun the laws at the time regarding segregation. This march appears to be in response to the possibility that a law is going to be passed making an illegal immigrant be a felony. That is a pretty strong link.

The felony designation, to me, seems to be a very short sighted political manuever. Our penal system is already stretched pretty thin, an a large influx of illegal immigrants would push it over the edge. It would be particularly damaging to states with three strikes laws, since once someone was caught coming across the border three times, we'll be stuck footing the bill for them to the tune of $50K a year until they die.

I agree that something needs to be done, but simply passing a bill to make them felons isn't going to address the issue. In my opinion, it is only going to make things worse.

cartman

03-25-2006, 08:00 PM

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 08:02 PM

The felony designation, to me, seems to be a very short sighted political manuever. Our penal system is already stretched pretty thin, an a large influx of illegal immigrants would push it over the edge. It would be particularly damaging to states with three strikes laws, since once someone was caught coming across the border three times, we'll be stuck footing the bill for them to the tune of $50K a year until they die.

I agree that something needs to be done, but simply passing a bill to make them felons isn't going to address the issue. In my opinion, it is only going to make things worse.

I would agree with you in this. What needs to be done is not to put illegals in jail, or even punish them, since I understand why they are coming over. More border control, and a firmer regulation on finding illegals that are currently here. But, yeah, jail isn't the solution.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 08:03 PM

Dola quote,

Both situations also had people committing acts that were against the law at the time as well, as part of the protest. Citizen or not, laws were broken each time.

Jaywalking and murder are both crimes too, but it's silly to compare them. Same with this example. The analogy isn't really valid.

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 08:04 PM

...And I'm not the least bit bitter about it at all, just wondering how some think that they can openly break the laws in some areas and then not realize that is only eventually going to lead to many breaking laws in all areas. Can't pick and choose laws to follow.

Bubba, if you would have started this post with this thought, there wouldn't be people messing with you. Instead, you tried to make up some details to fit what you wanted to argue against.

The problem is that this country enables illigal immigration. Businesses take advantage of the cheap labor, there are a number of medical and unemployment benefits, and after a certain amount of time you can become a resident alien. Actually there are a number of circumstances where you can become a resident alien. If none of these things existed, there would be a very small immigration problem, because there would be no benefit to coming here.

If I was in the shoes of a person who didn't have a good quality of life, I know I would do the same thing to improve that for my family. But if no such window existed, I would most likely try to improve the quality of life in my own country with the help of others that would have felt stuck.

Easy Mac

03-25-2006, 08:04 PM

Wonder what all those veterans that fought and died in all those foreign wars would think of the cities and streets of their home country being filled with people waving foreign flags in the advocacy of breaking our laws.

And I'm not the least bit bitter about it at all, just wondering how some think that they can openly break the laws in some areas and then not realize that is only eventually going to lead to many breaking laws in all areas. Can't pick and choose laws to follow.

So you don't speed or jaywalk?

cartman

03-25-2006, 08:06 PM

Jaywalking and murder are both crimes too, but it's silly to compare them. Same with this example. The analogy isn't really valid.

They are both considered acts of civil disobience (illegal immigration/not sitting at the back of the bus), nothing even approaching the level of murder. However, if the legistation is passed, being an illegal immigrant will be a felony, just as murder is a felony.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 08:09 PM

They are both considered acts of civil disobience (illegal immigration/not sitting at the back of the bus), nothing even approaching the level of murder. However, if the legistation is passed, being an illegal immigrant will be a felony, just as murder is a felony.

Not sure if I think illegal immigration would be considered "civil disobedience" in the way you're describing. People aren't coming here in order to change the current laws or to dispute a law, the way Rosa Parks did with the bus. I see where you're going with this, but the intend of the breaking of the two laws are for different reasons. That's why the analogy isn't correct, IMO.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 08:13 PM

The magnetic pull of BW's tinfoil hat is influencing the timestamps of the posts.

Well of course your right, we should completely open our borders inviting anyone and everyone in regardless of past criminal or other history. Then we of course have to educate, feed, cloth and pay for medical care even if it bankrupts us as a nation. You stand on the mountaintop of insight and knowledge! What the heck was I thinking! Thanks!

Easy Mac

03-25-2006, 08:14 PM

Well of course your right, we should completely open our borders inviting anyone and everyone in regardless of past criminal or other history. Then we of course have to educate, feed, cloth and pay for medical care even if it bankrupts us as a nation. You stand on the mountaintop of insight and knowledge! What the heck was I thinking! Thanks!

We do that for people in our own country who have lived here all their lives. Why should we deny that stuff to someone who actually comes over and works instead of some dumb fuck who drops out of high school and lives on welfare without a job? Just because they got lucky and were born here? That almost makes as much sense as hard work.

kenparker23

03-25-2006, 08:14 PM

By PETER PRENGAMAN, Associated Press Writer
25 minutes ago

LOS ANGELES - Tens of thousands of immigrant rights advocates from across Southern California marched Saturday in protest of federal legislation that would build more walls along the U.S.-Mexico border and make helping illegal immigrants a crime.

They are protesting illegal immigration. They may or may not be illegal, but they are protesting legislation aimed at protecting our borders against illegals.

This is a huge problem in the USA right now. I am in orthopedic surgery. Some of my collegues in Texas are having a difficult time. In many emergency rooms, they are flooded with illegals with no insurance. We as healthcare providers take a hippocratic oath to help those in need. But, we all must realize that it is mine and your tax dollars that iare subsidizing these illegal immigrants. If something is not done, it will cripple many systems, including access to emergency healthcare.

Just a few thoughts.

KP

duckman

03-25-2006, 08:15 PM

cartman

03-25-2006, 08:16 PM

Not sure if I think illegal immigration would be considered "civil disobedience" in the way you're describing. People aren't coming here in order to change the current laws or to dispute a law, the way Rosa Parks did with the bus. I see where you're going with this, but the intend of the breaking of the two laws are for different reasons. That's why the analogy isn't correct, IMO.

I can accept that. I didn't mean to infer that people are immigrating illegally to bring changes to laws here. But that is exactly what the protests today were trying to do, except they were voicing their opposition to prevent a new law from being passed, not make changes to existing laws.

And if these protests were somehow "tainted" as Bubba seems to suggest because illegals participated, then the same "taint" would have applied to the civils rights protests. That was the gist of my point of view.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 08:17 PM

We do that for people in our own country who have lived here all their lives. Why should we deny that stuff to someone who actually comes over and works instead of some dumb fuck who drops out of high school and lives on welfare without a job? Just because they got lucky and were born here? That almost makes as much sense as hard work.

Because it's a slippery scope. Because by turning a blind eye to the way a person comes to this country, you're advocating anyone, including criminals and felons from other countries, to come over. Because it would cause a burden to already overburdened public assistances. And because, quite frankly, it's an insult to all the immigrants who came over the right way.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 08:19 PM

I can accept that. I didn't mean to infer that people are immigrating illegally to bring changes to laws here. But that is exactly what the protests today were trying to do, except they were voicing their opposition to prevent a new law from being passed, not make changes to existing laws.

And if these protests were somehow "tainted" as Bubba seems to suggest because illegals participated, then the same "taint" would have applied to the civils rights protests. That was the gist of my point of view.

Point noted, cartman, and again, I see your point on this.. I don't have a problem with the protests, personally. My point is that, while jailing illegals isn't a solution, the way we handle illegal immigration is not effective. They don't need to be jailed, but they don't need to be rewarded for it either.

cartman

03-25-2006, 08:20 PM

Well of course your right, we should completely open our borders inviting anyone and everyone in regardless of past criminal or other history. Then we of course have to educate, feed, cloth and pay for medical care even if it bankrupts us as a nation. You stand on the mountaintop of insight and knowledge! What the heck was I thinking! Thanks!

So the reason the current Administration has raised the debt ceiling over $3 trillion dollars over the past 6 years is because of illegal immigration? Fascinating, I never would have known that.

kenparker23

03-25-2006, 08:20 PM

We do that for people in our own country who have lived here all their lives. Why should we deny that stuff to someone who actually comes over and works instead of some dumb fuck who drops out of high school and lives on welfare without a job? Just because they got lucky and were born here? That almost makes as much sense as hard work.

There is merit in your argument. However, being born in a country does bring about some level of entitlement. I have the same feeling toward those who have no motivation and are natives. Those folks tax the system just as much.

Desnudo

03-25-2006, 08:21 PM

I'm not worried.

http://data.moviecovers.com/DATA/zipcache/INVASION%20USA.jpg

Desnudo

03-25-2006, 08:23 PM

Plus, the last time I checked, the Russian wheat crop will be fine this year.

Easy Mac

03-25-2006, 08:23 PM

Because it's a slippery scope. Because by turning a blind eye to the way a person comes to this country, you're advocating anyone, including criminals and felons from other countries, to come over. Because it would cause a burden to already overburdened public assistances. And because, quite frankly, it's an insult to all the immigrants who came over the right way.

The thing is, 99% of the illegals have no chance of coming legally. The whole "its an insult to those who came over the right way" statement is a joke. The ones who came over legally were the ones who won a lottery, got married, or already had connections. I doubt they'd feel insulted (note i don't necesarily disagree with the rest of the argument, though I think a blind eye is a purposefully overbroad statement).

cartman

03-25-2006, 08:24 PM

Plus, the last time I checked, the Russian wheat crop will be fine this year.

That's good, because if I remember correctly, the Cubans did come up through Mexico.

Desnudo

03-25-2006, 08:27 PM

I've also seen doctors selling abdominizers on t.v.'s. You should buy one.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 08:28 PM

So the reason the current Administration has raised the debt ceiling over $3 trillion dollars over the past 6 years is because of illegal immigration? Fascinating, I never would have known that.

Your saying that the costs involved are marginal and not to be concerned about? WE JUST HAD A POST FROM A DOCTOR WHO STATED OTHERWISE!!!
My Gosh, talk about seeing only what you want to see!

cartman

03-25-2006, 08:28 PM

This is a huge problem in the USA right now. I am in orthopedic surgery. Some of my collegues in Texas are having a difficult time. In many emergency rooms, they are flooded with illegals with no insurance. We as healthcare providers take a hippocratic oath to help those in need. But, we all must realize that it is mine and your tax dollars that iare subsidizing these illegal immigrants. If something is not done, it will cripple many systems, including access to emergency healthcare.

That is a valid point, but I also wonder how many of the legal citizens come in as well without insurance.

I do find it interesting that the biggest protests are in California, and they are have been little to none today in Texas. If anything, Texas as many illegal aliens as California, but it isn't considered as much of a problem here in Texas as it is in California.

cartman

03-25-2006, 08:30 PM

Your saying that the costs involved are marginal and not to be concerned about? WE JUST HAD A POST FROM A DOCTOR WHO STATED OTHERWISE!!!
My Gosh, talk about seeing only what you want to see!

There was no dollar amount stated in that post. I also ask in the post above how many citizen come in looking for medical assistance without insurance.

You suck at the internet.

gottimd

03-25-2006, 08:31 PM

The title of this thread just makes me think of this

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00004W4HZ.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Sorry for the brief interruption....carry on....

Easy Mac

03-25-2006, 08:31 PM

I've also seen doctors selling abdominizers on t.v.'s. You should buy one.

I want some hydroxycut. That doctor in the commercials is ripped.

Cringer

03-25-2006, 08:32 PM

I am disappointed this thread was started by BubbaWheels, it means it breaks down into crap from the get go.

I had read about the protests, which were in several cities yesterday including Atlanta, and thought it may pop up on here.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/25/immigration.rallies.ap/index.html

Unfortunetly this is not the same CNN article I read earlier this morning. THat one had some different quotes which kind of bugged me. Things along the lines of comparing this to the struggle of blacks to be free in this country. That bugged me, because it is nothing like that.

The laws/bills trying to be passed call for some fairly reasonable things in my mind. I think these protests were kind of on the dumb side. And I am someone who lives on the border, and usually does not care much about illegal Mexicans. I see them all the time, I see where they come from, and I understand why they do it.

ice4277

03-25-2006, 08:33 PM

I am disappointed this thread was started by BubbaWheels, it means it breaks down into crap from the get go.

To me, it is kind of like the "O'Reilly effect". I may in general agree with a sentiment one of them expresses, but the way they get there makes me kinda wish I didn't, or at least have to try and defend it.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 08:34 PM

There was no dollar amount stated in that post. I also ask in the post above how many citizen come in looking for medical assistance without insurance.

You suck at the internet.

Thanks!

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 08:36 PM

The thing is, 99% of the illegals have no chance of coming legally. The whole "its an insult to those who came over the right way" statement is a joke. The ones who came over legally were the ones who won a lottery, got married, or already had connections. I doubt they'd feel insulted (note i don't necesarily disagree with the rest of the argument, though I think a blind eye is a purposefully overbroad statement).

At the risk of sounding harsh, to those who aren't able to come over, that's just too bad.

I work with several immigrants here that are here legally, one of which became a citizen, and they feel very strongly that illegal immigrants have no place here. Evidentally the process to get here is difficult.

What you're saying is basically open the borders to everyone. I feel the borders should be completely shut. Looks like we just have opposite opinions on this, Easy Mac. To me, we need to take care of the people here legally here now rather than allow more in.

JonInMiddleGA

03-25-2006, 08:39 PM

The thing is, 99% of the illegals have no chance of coming legally.

So ... fucking ... what ?

They have ZERO right to be here, short of what is provided for legally.

If they don't get here, then someone please provide them with the appropriate translation of the phrase "tough shit" (and then bill them for the f'n translation).

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 08:39 PM

st.cronin

03-25-2006, 08:41 PM

I may have been wrong. Page 3 already? My goodness.

Havok

03-25-2006, 08:46 PM

Bubba, if you would have started this post with this thought, there wouldn't be people messing with you.

i rarely get involved in threads like this, but i read them sometimes. Usually until clintl, Duckman or that whole crew starts posting, then i gotta stop reading. (just being honest, but im sure they'll take offense to it).

Anyway, my point is thats a lie and you know it. Bubba gets gang raped by a group of about 5-6 of you guys no matter what or how he posts. At least from what i've seen. He is to far to the right for my tastes, but im more to the right myself (for example, i tend to agree with WVUfan in this thread) so i do take some offense to the fact that you guys gang up on him and start with the name calling. Idoit, grammer, etc.... should at least try to keep it civil and debate the issue.

Easy Mac

03-25-2006, 08:59 PM

At the risk of sounding harsh, to those who aren't able to come over, that's just too bad.

I work with several immigrants here that are here legally, one of which became a citizen, and they feel very strongly that illegal immigrants have no place here. Evidentally the process to get here is difficult.

What you're saying is basically open the borders to everyone. I feel the borders should be completely shut. Looks like we just have opposite opinions on this, Easy Mac. To me, we need to take care of the people here legally here now rather than allow more in.

I haven't said that at all. You argued that they should come over legally, but for them there is no legal means, its not available to them. I'm not arguing one way or the other whether we should open the border. Your statements were presented that it was just simple for these people to get over here, when as you later stated its a horribly difficult process. So the whole, they should have entered legally argument isn't applicable.

Also, I have my feelings on the subject, but I wouldn't be here if my grandfather didn't come over illegally, so I may be biased. Of course it shouldn't be unchecked and free for all, but people act as if we're somehow neglecting people here in America. I'd argue that's far from the case.

Easy Mac

03-25-2006, 09:01 PM

So ... fucking ... what ?

They have ZERO right to be here, short of what is provided for legally.

If they don't get here, then someone please provide them with the appropriate translation of the phrase "tough shit" (and then bill them for the f'n translation).

Why do you have a right to be here? Because you were born here? That's not a right, that fucking luck.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 09:07 PM

Why do you have a right to be here? Because you were born here? That's not a right, that fucking luck.

Well, the U.S. Constitution would disagree with you. But things like that don't seem to matter much to your kind of crowd.

Drake

03-25-2006, 09:10 PM

I really want to be British (for the cool accent, mostly -- it knocks Midwestern chicks out). But just because I wasn't lucky enough to be born a Brit shouldn't mean that I can't just become one.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 09:10 PM

I haven't said that at all. You argued that they should come over legally, but for them there is no legal means, its not available to them. I'm not arguing one way or the other whether we should open the border. Your statements were presented that it was just simple for these people to get over here, when as you later stated its a horribly difficult process. So the whole, they should have entered legally argument isn't applicable.

Well, I must have misread you, then, and I certainly never said that legal immigration was easy. Easy or difficulty of legal immigration has nothing to do with this argument, to be honest, but the argument that people should enter legally is absolutely valid. I'll say again -- illegal people being allowed to live here is a slap in the face to those who did enter legally.

Also, I have my feelings on the subject, but I wouldn't be here if my grandfather didn't come over illegally, so I may be biased. Of course it shouldn't be unchecked and free for all, but people act as if we're somehow neglecting people here in America. I'd argue that's far from the case.

We certainly are neglecting people here in America. There's hundreds of thousands of homeless people here. I think that's the definition of neglect. One illegal getting health care is one more legal resident paying for it.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 09:13 PM

I really want to be British (for the cool accent, mostly -- it knocks Midwestern chicks out). But just because I wasn't lucky enough to be born a Brit shouldn't mean that I can't just become one.

Thought from your location you all wanted to ride bikes and become Italian. (reference to a pretty good movie watched in film class.)

Drake

03-25-2006, 09:17 PM

The Italian accent really only works in that movie. Or maybe it just worked in the '70's. Doesn't work anymore, trust me.

Ajaxab

03-25-2006, 09:19 PM

The thing is, 99% of the illegals have no chance of coming legally. The whole "its an insult to those who came over the right way" statement is a joke. The ones who came over legally were the ones who won a lottery, got married, or already had connections. I doubt they'd feel insulted (note i don't necesarily disagree with the rest of the argument, though I think a blind eye is a purposefully overbroad statement).

As one who went through the process of becoming a permanent resident legally, it is something of an insult to hear about potential amnesty being given to illegals. After four years of headaches and stress induced by a variety of bizarre forms, fees and misinformation from the various government officials I had to deal with I finally became a permanent resident. I almost missed my wedding in doing things the legal way (fortunately made it by an hour). For illegals to simply skate by is somewhat insulting to those of us who have endured the difficulties of taking the legal route in some respects.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 09:20 PM

The Italian accent really only works in that movie. Or maybe it just worked in the '70's. Doesn't work anymore, trust me.

Shouldn't your screen name be 'Cutter?"

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 09:20 PM

...Anyway, my point is thats a lie and you know it. Bubba gets gang raped by a group of about 5-6 of you guys no matter what or how he posts. At least from what i've seen. He is to far to the right for my tastes, but im more to the right myself (for example, i tend to agree with WVUfan in this thread) so i do take some offense to the fact that you guys gang up on him and start with the name calling. Idoit, grammer, etc.... should at least try to keep it civil and debate the issue.
In my opinion, I don't think that Bubba would have been attacked if he just would of first stated his thoughts instead of starting off a post saying that 10,000 illegal immigrants are protesting in major cities. If he wants to start a discussion, that's one thing, but to start the thread by questioning whether this is an invasion and focusing on the fact that they are waving Mexican flags was going to be ripe material for ridicule. He didn't start this out in a civil matter and it will probably not end that way.

If you read the rest of the post that you responded too, you may find that there are some points that I agree with WVUfan. In fact, I agreed that they are the same problems. However it seems to me that Bubba wanted to warp information to start a heated debate when he didn't need to.

kenparker23

03-25-2006, 09:26 PM

By default, we grant health passes to illegal aliens. Yet many illegal aliens harbor fatal diseases that American medicine fought and vanquished long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue, and Chagas disease.

What is seen is the political statistic that 43 million lives are at risk in America because of lack of medical insurance. What is unseen is that medical insurance does not equal medical care. Uninsured people receive medical care in hospital emergency departments (EDs) under the coercive Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985 (EMTALA), which obligates hospitals to treat the uninsured but does not pay for that care. Also unseen is the percentage of the uninsured who are illegal aliens. No one knows how many illegal aliens reside in America. If there are 10 million, they constitute nearly 25 percent of the uninsured. The percentage could be even higher.

High-technology EDs have degenerated into free medical offices. Between 1993 and 2003, 60 California hospitals closed because half their services became unpaid. Another 24 California hospitals verge on closure. Even ambulances from Mexico come to American EDs with indigents because the drivers know that EMTALA requires accepting patients who come.

Children born to illegals instantly qualify for public welfare aid. Between 300,000 and 350,000 anchor babies annually become citizens because of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: 'All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside.'

Source: Adeleine Pelner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq.The Journal of the American Physicians and Surgeons, Volume 10 Number 1 - Spring 2005

Last year the taxpayers who finance Medicaid paid the hospital bill for 6,000 illegal aliens to have their babies in Colorado. This totaled $30 million, an average of $5,000 per baby. Those 6,000 births to illegal aliens are 40% of the births Medicaid paid for in Colorado. Those 6,000 babies immediately became U.S. citizens and qualified for all Medicaid services at a cost that is not even tabulated.

These are just a few examples of what faces the industry that I am in. I saw a patient two months. He was here on a greencard and had insurance. He cut his finger off and we did a revision amputation. Last week the same patient came into the clinic with a broken ankle. He still had a dressing on the finger. Only this time he had a new name and had NO insurance. Turns out, he had his buddy's greencard. We talked to the OBGYN guys and this guy had three kids while using this alias.

tanglewood

03-25-2006, 09:27 PM

Well, the U.S. Constitution would disagree with you. But things like that don't seem to matter much to your kind of crowd.

Declaration of Independance disagrees with you, but that doesn't seem to matter much with your crowd.

tanglewood

03-25-2006, 09:29 PM

Okay, an honest question:

What do people have against immigration?

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 09:32 PM

Okay, an honest question:

What do people have against immigration?

Legal Immigration, you mean?

In general, nothing. In today's world, lots. The United States is overcrowded, and we're having troubles supporting who we have here now. New immigrants only serves to augment the problem.

Of course, I'm very much a fan of a policy of isolationism, so I may be biased.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 09:34 PM

Declaration of Independance disagrees with you, but that doesn't seem to matter much with your crowd.

Really? Missed the part about not being able to make our own sovereign laws regarding immigration. But I do think the intent even back then was that people who lived here were supposed to work for a living and pay for their own health care and such.

st.cronin

03-25-2006, 09:35 PM

The United States is overcrowded

You've obviously never been to New Mexico.

GrantDawg

03-25-2006, 09:37 PM

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all white men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. The rest of y'all can suck it."

Crapshoot

03-25-2006, 09:38 PM

I agree. One of the draws that brings illegals to our country is our laws protect them. Instead of doing what we should be doing when they are discovered, we instead cottle them and treat them and educate them.

It should not be the responsibility of this country to educate and treat citizens of other countries. I certainly do not want to pay for it with my tax money, but yet that is what we do. And yet I seem to remember there being a big to-do when Swartzeneggar vetoed a law that would allow illegals to have driver's licenses, when that should be apparent to everyone illegals are not "entitled" to ANYTHING from us, except a trip back to the border.

Except your country would not run without them. Too many American's don't want to do the jobs the illegal immigrants do at the price they do it - you don't want to pay more for your houses, you want to keep your "farmers", and so forth. Moreover, a country built on the back of immigration sure seems xenophobic when the immigrants come from the wrong part of town. I understand the frustration with immigration, but this idea that immigration detracts (as a whole) rather than adds is ridiculous.

JonInMiddleGA

03-25-2006, 09:38 PM

Why do you have a right to be here? Because you were born here?

Read the Constitution lately?

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 09:38 PM

You've obviously never been to New Mexico.

Heh. Went through Army training in Fort Huachuca, az. That's close enough. :-)

Easy Mac

03-25-2006, 09:41 PM

Really? Missed the part about not being able to make our own sovereign laws regarding immigration. But I do think the intent even back then was that people who lived here were supposed to work for a living and pay for their own health care and such.

Well they fucked up on that second part:D.

tanglewood

03-25-2006, 09:42 PM

Legal Immigration, you mean?

In general, nothing. In today's world, lots. The United States is overcrowded, and we're having troubles supporting who we have here now. New immigrants only serves to augment the problem.

Of course, I'm very much a fan of a policy of isolationism, so I may be biased.

The United States is very clearly not overcrowded by any measure, geographic, economic or cultural, applicable.

WRT the Declaration of Independance, the preamble is what I was specifically refering to. And to brush it off as 'Well, that was a specific event between the latent USA and Britain' is disengenous, if not intellectually dishonest. The Jeffersonian ideals in that document that lead to the core principles of the founding of the US are certainly applicable in this situation. Why should someone who is born south of the Rio Grande have less rights to healthcare than someone born to the north of it?

I do find two specific things ironic about the immigration debate currently being waged in the US, and indeed much of the Western world. Firstly, that conservatives, obstensibly in favour of the rights of the individual and personal freedom, are those most intent on clearly restricting such choice and freedom. Secondly, that if you were to ask westerners about emmigration, they would be far more in favour of their personal right to leave their nation and move to another than they seem to be in extending such privileges to foriegners.

Crapshoot

03-25-2006, 09:44 PM

At the risk of sounding harsh, to those who aren't able to come over, that's just too bad.

I work with several immigrants here that are here legally, one of which became a citizen, and they feel very strongly that illegal immigrants have no place here. Evidentally the process to get here is difficult.

What you're saying is basically open the borders to everyone. I feel the borders should be completely shut. Looks like we just have opposite opinions on this, Easy Mac. To me, we need to take care of the people here legally here now rather than allow more in.

I'm a legal immigrant here. Silicon Valley, for example, is built on the back on the legal immigrants who brought their intelligence and expertise to this country, and who have created far more weath than they came with. In fact, one of the reason for the success of the US has been its ability to attract top level talent from all over the world - the "brain gain", as opposed to "brain drain." Closing the borders is nothing more than a sop to a xenophobic element that forgets that immigration (legal even!) is one of the primary sources of labor and creative capital in this country.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 09:45 PM

Except your country would not run without them. Too many American's don't want to do the jobs the illegal immigrants do at the price they do it - you don't want to pay more for your houses, you want to keep your "farmers", and so forth. Moreover, a country built on the back of immigration sure seems xenophobic when the immigrants come from the wrong part of town. I understand the frustration with immigration, but this idea that immigration detracts (as a whole) rather than adds is ridiculous.

While I can't argue with some of what you said, lemme center on something specific that I can:

American's don't want to do the jobs the illegal immigrants do at the price they do it

Now, while a majority of this problem lies with the companies that hire the illegals, the reason why legal residents aren't willing to do it for that price is because illegals will do it for significantly less than what's allowed by law.

If immigration laws were enforces and tightened, we can eliminate the companies and individuals who are hiring illegals and force a living wage for those jobs. There are people in this country legally that would do those jobs if they offered a reasonable wage.

Illegals make the problem worse by being a cheap labor force, and companies are the blame to hiring them.

Easy Mac

03-25-2006, 09:45 PM

Read the Constitution lately?

poorly phrased on my part. More in the grand scheme of things than country specific, but i award you a point.

My count:
Easy Mac 2,143,245 (rounded up)
Jon 7

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 09:48 PM

Except your country would not run without them. Too many American's don't want to do the jobs the illegal immigrants do at the price they do it - you don't want to pay more for your houses, you want to keep your "farmers", and so forth. Moreover, a country built on the back of immigration sure seems xenophobic when the immigrants come from the wrong part of town. I understand the frustration with immigration, but this idea that immigration detracts (as a whole) rather than adds is ridiculous.

This is the crap the corporate-types are shoveling at us. 'Too many Americans don't want...' my hairy eye-ball. Smaller labor pools mean bigger wages for those looking for jobs, and just maybe alot of those 'jobs Americans don't want to do' will suddenly become desirable. And if they don't, then maybe the market will just eliminate them altogether like gas-pumpers and shoe-shiners. Not too many of those living off social-assistance programs to make up for 'low wages.'

Look at that post earlier from that guy boasting he had his roof done by illegals. The contractors are making killings off of low-wage workers. How many able-bodied U.S. citizens AND LEGAL residents are working low-paying crap jobs or just unemployed that could be making decent wages in roofing but can't get hired by the contractors? And that guy is proud of it!

JonInMiddleGA

03-25-2006, 09:52 PM

poorly phrased on my part. More in the grand scheme of things than country specific, but i award you a point.

My count:
Easy Mac 2,143,245 (rounded up)
Jon 7

Criminy, your math is worse than your politics ;)

tanglewood

03-25-2006, 09:53 PM

This is the crap the corporate-types are shoveling at us. 'Too many Americans don't want...' my hairy eye-ball. Smaller labor pools mean bigger wages for those looking for jobs, and just maybe alot of those 'jobs Americans don't want to do' will suddenly become desirable. And if they don't, then maybe the market will just eliminate them altogether like gas-pumpers and shoe-shiners. Not too many of those living off social-assistance programs to make up for 'low wages.'

Look at that post earlier from that guy boasting he had his roof done by illegals. The contractors are making killings off of low-wage workers. How many able-bodied U.S. citizens AND LEGAL residents are working low-paying crap jobs or just unemployed that could be making decent wages in roofing but can't get hired by the contractors? And that guy is proud of it!

Embrace free market capitalism you un-American pinko!

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 09:54 PM

The United States is very clearly not overcrowded by any measure, geographic, economic or cultural, applicable.

I disagree 100%, though I suppose it depends on your definition.

WRT the Declaration of Independance, the preamble is what I was specifically refering to. And to brush it off as 'Well, that was a specific event between the latent USA and Britain' is disengenous, if not intellectually dishonest. The Jeffersonian ideals in that document that lead to the core principles of the founding of the US are certainly applicable in this situation. Why should someone who is born south of the Rio Grande have less rights to healthcare than someone born to the north of it?

Because one person is a citizen and one is not. Because we pay taxes and are entitled to rights as citizens of this country that others aren't. Because that's simply the way it is, and the way it should be.

I find is funny that people believe that everyone should be entitled to the rights and privilages that citizens have in this country.

I do find two specific things ironic about the immigration debate currently being waged in the US, and indeed much of the Western world. Firstly, that conservatives, obstensibly in favour of the rights of the individual and personal freedom, are those most intent on clearly restricting such choice and freedom. Secondly, that if you were to ask westerners about emmigration, they would be far more in favour of their personal right to leave their nation and move to another than they seem to be in extending such privileges to foriegners.

No, conservatives are concerned about the rights of the individual citizen and legal resident. I personally do not care ONE ... SINGLE ... IOTA about the "rights" of someone here illegally. To me, they have none. Illegals HAVE no choice and freedom.

Easy Mac

03-25-2006, 09:58 PM

Criminy, your math is worse than your politics ;)

Oddly, in real life people would argue that statement is backwards.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 10:01 PM

I'm a legal immigrant here. Silicon Valley, for example, is built on the back on the legal immigrants who brought their intelligence and expertise to this country, and who have created far more weath than they came with. In fact, one of the reason for the success of the US has been its ability to attract top level talent from all over the world - the "brain gain", as opposed to "brain drain." Closing the borders is nothing more than a sop to a xenophobic element that forgets that immigration (legal even!) is one of the primary sources of labor and creative capital in this country.

You need to reread your own post. Concentrate on the word 'legal.'

Celeval

03-25-2006, 10:02 PM

Seems to me there are two distinct questions.

- Should legal immigration be made easier/more accessible?
- Should illegal immigration be deterred?

I'm honest enough to know that I don't have a strong opinion on the first. I don't have the experience, I don't have anything to lean on, so that's that.

But plain and simple, illegal immigration is illegal. Doesn't matter if it's hispanic, canadian, irish, or anything else - my ancestors, like almost everyone else's, came over on boats. For me, it was Ireland and Italy... but they came over, checked in, and went through the legal processes to become citizens; and that's why I am one now. I agree that the US is a country built in immigration, but that's not an excuse to skip the rules while we're at it.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 10:04 PM

Embrace free market capitalism you un-American pinko!

Fair trade, not Free trade.

Easy Mac

03-25-2006, 10:06 PM

Does anyone else find it odd that Conservatives here are arguing that Americans need higher wages and the Liberals are arguing against them (to put the argument in simple terms).

My feelings. If they're getting away with it now by hiring illegal workers, why wouldn't they be able to get away with it with legal workers? It's obvious they're somehow operating outside the law with relative ease, I don't know that it would change that much without illegals. And I do believe there are jobs that even the poorest Americans feel they are above, and those are a lot of the jobs illegals take (note I'm not saying all).

Jonathan Ezarik

03-25-2006, 10:08 PM

So ... fucking ... what ?

They have ZERO right to be here, short of what is provided for legally.

If they don't get here, then someone please provide them with the appropriate translation of the phrase "tough shit" (and then bill them for the f'n translation).

Compassionate conservatism at its finest!

How many able-bodied U.S. citizens AND LEGAL residents are working low-paying crap jobs or just unemployed that could be making decent wages in roofing but can't get hired by the contractors?

I would guess not that many. How many citizens are going to run to be the first to roof someone's house for $5.15 an hour?

tanglewood

03-25-2006, 10:12 PM

WVUFan, soryy if I am being slightly unclear.

What I am trying to get at is not so much the specific situation of illegal/legal immigration and justifying one over the other. I am more as in why do states even have immigration quotas in the first place? Is there anything about being born in the US that makes you inherently superior merely through the virtue of the passport you carry? If there are no immigration quotas (i.e. all immigration is legal) then they could be easily integrated into the tax system as they would have no more reason to hide from the IRS than the millions of native Americans (not Native Americans, although i'm sure they have their fair share of tax dodgers too) who do so every year.

Therefore, this anxeity over immigration is either a) a valid complaint that the country is 'too crowded' or b) xenephobia. The former is of course patently untrue. The United States in terms of capita per square mile is one of the least densley populated states in the Western world and almost ridiculously empty compared to Europe. Economically, the US economy is currently in very healthy shape and standards of living are the highest in the world, indeed highest they have ever been. Culturally, and here I believe is where the biggest fear, conscious or not, originates, there is no rational reason why the latest influx of Mexicans in the last two decades will be any more harmful than the countless waves of specific ethinic groups to have hit the US in its history. Even if one argues that this example is the straw that breaks the camel's back, there are far more ethnically and culturally diverse nations than the USA in the world (off the top of my head Australia, Singapore, India, China and so on) that are very stable both economically and socially. This has always lead me to the belief that anti-immigrationists are essentially afraid of change and the unknown. A fear that the USA will become more and more hispanic orientatedk which is most likely correct, but any objective opinion that such a situation would be less preferable to the anglo-saxon orientated tilt the USA has had for its 230 years to date is pretty groundless.

Celeval

03-25-2006, 10:23 PM

The odd thing is that this is talked about as if the United States was the only country in the world with immigration controls, as opposed to one of... um... well... all of them.

JonInMiddleGA

03-25-2006, 10:24 PM

Compassionate conservatism at its finest!

Sorry, but I've never staked out that position, not my bag.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 10:37 PM

Is there anything about being born in the US that makes you inherently superior merely through the virtue of the passport you carry?

Yes. In my opinion, and those of the founding fathers who granted rights to natural-born citizens that no one else has, a citizen of the US is superior to all other groups.

If there are no immigration quotas (i.e. all immigration is legal) then they could be easily integrated into the tax system as they would have no more reason to hide from the IRS than the millions of native Americans (not Native Americans, although i'm sure they have their fair share of tax dodgers too) who do so every year.

Or we can close the borders and not have to worry about it at all. The US has no need for any more immigrants. It does not serve itself by opening borders whatsoever.

there are far more ethnically and culturally diverse nations than the USA in the world (off the top of my head Australia, Singapore, India, China and so on) that are very stable both economically and socially...

You're calling China and Singapore culterally diverse? That right there devalues your whole argument, IMO.

Bubba Wheels

03-25-2006, 10:56 PM

The odd thing is that this is talked about as if the United States was the only country in the world with immigration controls, as opposed to one of... um... well... all of them.

Funny you mention that. Wonder if all of those 'Mexican flag waving protestors' in the streets Friday and Saturday would like to comment on Mexico's policy of using its own armed forces to close off its southern border with Guatemala and preventing Guatemala's 'illegal immigrants' from getting into Mexico. That would make for some interesting TV viewing.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 10:58 PM

Funny you mention that. Wonder if all of those 'Mexican flag waving protestors' in the streets Friday and Saturday would like to comment on Mexico's policy of using its own armed forces to close off its southern border with Guatemala and preventing Guatemala's 'illegal immigrants' from getting into Mexico. That would make for some interesting TV viewing.

No, see, to the lefties this doesn't matter, because America is responsible for the whole world. We're beholden to let anyone who wants in to the country in regardless.

tanglewood

03-25-2006, 11:03 PM

Yes. In my opinion, and those of the founding fathers who granted rights to natural-born citizens that no one else has, a citizen of the US is superior to all other groups.

Well that is so patently absurd it's barely worth responding to.

You're calling China and Singapore culterally diverse? That right there devalues your whole argument, IMO.

Singapore is certainly one of the most culturally diverse nations in the world! Ethinically it is made up of predominatly Chinese, Indian and Malaysian groups but also significant numbers of Arabs, Sri Lankans and other Asian ethinicities. Religiously it is tremndously diverse, with all major religions being well represented on the island. Linguistically, it has four official languages in English, Mandrin, Tamil and Malay. Also its history as an outpost of the British Empire means that it has a very significant Western liberal heritige, which combined with eastern Taoism and Asian traditions makes it tremmendously multicultural.

As for China, it always has been a very common misconception in the West that it is a homogenus nationstate. China has always to some extent been artifically held together by an artificial central power source, right from the Mongol invasion to the present Communist Party, although I suspect that 50 years of endless propoganda with the help of modern mass-media has to some extent forged a collective national idendity, at least to the degree that if democracy were to arrive China would most likely not split up (disregarding Taiwan and Tibet of course). Nonetheless, there are still many, many distinct and sperate ethinc groups in China, each with their own languages and heritages. Also despite the official atheism of the government all religions are represented, from Orthodox Christianity to the more traditional Tao and Buddhism. Merely because it has always been convienient for the West to think of the Chinese as, well the Chinese, does not make it reality.

I would like to continue more discussion on the topic of immigration, as I find it incredibly fascinating and enjoy talking about it, but alas I must retire to my bed.

cartman

03-25-2006, 11:10 PM

Funny you mention that. Wonder if all of those 'Mexican flag waving protestors' in the streets Friday and Saturday would like to comment on Mexico's policy of using its own armed forces to close off its southern border with Guatemala and preventing Guatemala's 'illegal immigrants' from getting into Mexico. That would make for some interesting TV viewing.

That would quite possibly be the lowest rated TV show of all time, breaking the record set by "Watching the paint dry in the C-Span Studios"

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 11:13 PM

Well that is so patently absurd it's barely worth responding to.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution.

Desnudo

03-25-2006, 11:13 PM

I think the lowest rated tv show of all time would be someone reading the posts from this thread aloud.

BrianD

03-25-2006, 11:14 PM

I think the lowest rated tv show of all time would be someone reading the posts from this thread aloud.

Would that be rated lower than someone miming the posts from this thread?

primelord

03-25-2006, 11:15 PM

The US has no need for any more immigrants.

So much for give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

cartman

03-25-2006, 11:20 PM

Here is a pretty good study that does a cost/benfit analysis of immigrants, both legal and illegal, in the US.:

http://sorrel.humboldt.edu/~economic/econ104/immigrat/

IMMIGRATION
Introduction & Statistics

Immigration is a contentious issue in the United States currently, and particularly in California. Why all the fuss? In the last few decades we have seen rising numbers of immigrants, both legal and illegal. The massive inflow of immigrants, especially hispanics, has had profound impacts on our economic, social, and political systems. California recently passed Proposition 187 which essentially eliminated access to social services for most illegal immigrants. We will look at some of the facts of immigration and analyze immigrants' impact on the economy.

The chart below shows immigrant flows and the percentage of the population that is foreign-born for each decade from the 1880s to the present.

Decade Immigrant Flow Percentage of
(000s) Population that is
Foreign-born

1880s 5246.6 14.7

1890s 3687.6 13.6

1900s 8795.4 14.6

1910s 5735.8 13.2

1920s 4107.2 11.6

1930s 528.4 8.8

1940s 1035 6.9

1950s 2515.5 5.4

1960s 3321.7 4.7

1970s 4493.3 6.2

1980s 7338.1 7.9

Source: Borjas, George J., Journal of Economic Literature, Dec. 1994, p. 1668.

Relative to historic trends, immigration is not that high but it has dramatically increased in recent years. Nearly 900,000 persons are being legally admitted annually. Estimates are that illegal immigration add another 200,000 to 300,000 people per year. 43 percent of all illegal aliens live in California. In California, 21.7 percent of the population is foreign-born, illegal immigrants make-up 4.7 percent.
Recent Immigration Reforms

Three major reforms have been implemented since the mid 1960s. These are:

1965 Amendments to the Immigration and Nationality Act: Repealed national origins restrictions which restricted immigration visas according to the ethnic composition of the 1920 US population. Before 1920 the United States had a very high rate of immigration. The 1965 amendment essentially returned immigration policy to the pre 1920 policy.

1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA): Gave amnesty to 3 million illegal aliens and introduced employer sanctions. In particular, employers who hired illegal aliens could be fined and prosecuted.

1990 Immigration Act: Permitted the entry of 150,000 more legal immigrants annually
Where Do Legal Immigrants Come From?

The data listed below are for the 1980s. Mexico dominates the list. By continent, America provides nearly half the immigrants to the United States with Asia coming in second with one-third.

Country Percent Continent Percent
Mexico 22.6 America 49.3
Phillipines 7.5 Asia 37.3
China 4.7 Europe 10.4
Korea 4.5 Africa 2.4
Vietnam 3.8
India 3.4
Dom. Republic 3.4
How Have Immigrants Fared in the US?

The table below provides statistics on education, wages, and public assistance to immigrants for the last 25 years.

Group 1970 1980 1990

Natives:

Education (years) 11.5 12.7 13.2

Percent on Pub. 6.0 7.9 7.4
Assistance

All Immigrants:

Education (years) 10.7 11.7 11.6

Wage Differential w/ +0.9 -9.2 -15.2
native

Percent on Pub. 5.9 8.7 9.1
Assistance

Recent Immigrants
(<5yrs):

Education (years) 11.1 11.8 11.9

Wage Differential w/ -16.6 -27.6 -31.7
native

Percent on Pub. 5.5 8.3 8.3
Assistance

Source: Borjas, George J., Journal of Economic Perspectives, Spring 1995, p. 4.

Some trends show up. First, the education gap has increased over time. This has happened even though education levels of immigrants has increased. Second, recent immigrants have not fared nearly as well in employment as previous ones. The wage gap has widened significantly and it decreases but does not disappear with time spent in the US. Third, the percentage on public assistance has risen and the percentage increases with time spent in the US.
A Cost-Benefit Analysis of Immigration
It is useful to do a cost-benefit analysis regarding the impact of immigration on the United States economy. Remember, however, that such an analysis only tells us if our current immigration policy is efficient. It does not tell us whether or not our policy if fair, nor what the U.S. policy should be.
The "Costs" of Immigration
The costs to the US for immigration generally fall into two categories: 1) direct expenditures incurred to support the immigrants, and 2) displacement costs incurred by native citizens.

1. Direct expenditures
Direct expenditures consist of (among other things) increases in AFDC and food stamps, SSI, health costs, and prison costs. In 1970 immigrants headed 6.8 percent of all households, paid 6.3 percent of all taxes, and received 6.7 percent of all welfare benefits, a rough wash. In 1980, immigrants headed 7.6 percent of all households, paid 7.0 percent of all taxes, and received 9.1 percent of all welfare benefits. In 1990, immigrants headed 8.4 percent of all households, paid 8.3 percent in taxes, and received 13.1 percent of all welfare benefits. So the level of welfare benefits relative to taxes paid has increased. Immigrants, then, receive proportionately more in welfare benefits than their share of the population. Since the majority of welfare benefits are paid at the county and state level, native citizens in states with high levels of immigration (such as California) paid more taxes to provide the higher level of welfare benefits.

Estimates of tax payer burden range from an annual surplus of $27 billion to a deficit of $40 billion depending on the assumptions made. A "reasonable" estimate of tax accounting provided by Borjas shows that immigrants received $23.8 billion in government entitlement and paid $85.4 billion in taxes. This statistic seems to suggest at first glance that immigrants are more than paying their way for welfare benefits. However, as Borjas points out, on average only 8.9 percent of taxes goes towards entitlement programs. Thus, only $7.6 billion (85.4 x 8.9 percent) of immigrant taxes went on average to entitlements. This results in a $16.2 billion fiscal burden on native taxpayers. Therefore, it is likely that immigrants impose a net burden on native taxpayers on the order of $16 billion annually.

2. Displacement Costs
Displacement costs occur when immigration either reduces the wages of native citizens or results in native citizens being laid off or forced to move from the area. The various estimates conclude that the elasticity of the native wage with respect to the number of immigrants is at most -0.1. This implies that a city with 10% more immigration than another will have wages that are 1 percent lower. In other words, a $10.00 per hour wage will fall to $9.90.

Following the methodology of Borjas (The New Economics of Immigration" in The Atlantic Monthly, November 1996) we can compute the loss of native wages at the aggregate level. Workers' share of GDP is about 70 percent, and natives make up 90 percent of the population. Therefore, native workers take home about 63 percent of GDP in wages and salaries. If the number of workers in the US has increased by 10 percent due to immigration, then native wages and salaries fall by 1 percent to 62.37 percent of GDP. In a $7 trillion economy, this works out to just over $44 billion. In an economy the size of the U.S., this effect is small.

The same result is found for unemployment. The great majority of studies conclude that immigrants rarely force a native worker out of a job. The effects are statistically insignificant.

In sum, direct expenditures result in a net loss of $16 billion, and loss of native wages add another $44 billion for a total cost from immigration of $60 billion.
The Benefits from Immigration
Benefits from immigration include increases in economic welfare, increase in cultural diversity, and increases in the standard of living of immigrants.

1. Gains in economic welfare. We argued earlier that a 10 percent rise in immigration lowers native wages by up to 1 percent, or possibly $44 billion per year. However, these wage reductions don't just disappear. To the extent that immigrants provide low-cost labor, either more income accrues to the employers, or cost reductions are passed on to the consumer. Therefore, the host economy benefits by an equal amount that native workers lose from the cheap labor of the immigrants. In other words, the $44 billion is simply redistributed to other people in the economy, and the net effect washes out. But the gains from the low wages go beyond the $44 billion from lower wages. The goods produced by immigrant workers also generate additional profits for employers because they are able to sell more of their products at the lower price. Borjas estimates this gain to be $7 billion per year.
2. Increase in cultural diversity. This aspect of life is difficult to quantify but consumers benefit at a minimum by the increase in product diversity (for example, ethnic restaurants, cultural centers in cities, and so on). However, diversity also leads to costs including more crime, ethnic violence, and so on. Since these aspects are so difficult to quantify, we will take the easy way out and simply assume that the positive and negative aspects of diversity cancel each other out.
3. Increases in standard of living of immigrants. Most immigrants' quality of life must increase or else immigrants would not stay and new ones would not keep coming. This benefit though is not internalized by the host country. Therefore, it is not appropriate to include this in the cost-benefit analysis that we are doing.

Since we are only summing the economic welfare benefits, the economy gains $44 billion is lower costs and/or prices from immigrant labor, and gains $7 billion more on top of that by generating more profits for employers. Thus the total benefits to immigration are on the order of $51 billion annually.
Conclusion
The cost-benefit analysis suggests that the costs ($60 billion) outweigh the benefits ($51 billion) by $9 billion annually. Therefore, current immigration policy is not as efficient as it could be, though the inefficiency is small.

What do we make of all this? First, immigration (legal and illegal) has become more costly in recent times because the number of immigrants has increased, and the relative skills of immigrants have decreased. Therefore, the economic burden of immigration has surely increased in the last two decades. Second, the "stealing of natives' jobs" is mostly a myth and simply does not happen on a large scale.

An important distinction must be made again between efficiency and equity. We have tentatively concluded that the costs of immigration outweigh the benefits by $9 billion annually. From an efficiency point of view, the solution is to reduce the number of immigrants until the benefits equal the costs. Another possibility is to only admit the more educated, wealthier immigrants. This is what some countries such as Canada has done. This lead to a more "efficient" immigration policy. But is such a policy fair?

From an equity point of view, even if the costs of immigration outweigh the benefits, this tells us nothing about what type of immigration policy the United States should have. There are strong moral arguments for allowing immigrants into the US given our history. After all we are a nation of immigrants. Moreover, immigration to the United States has improved the lives of most that have arrived here. Do we have the right to shut that opportunity off to those who live in poorer countries? Most of our ancestors took advantage of that opportunity. Why can't others?

Finally, though the tax payer burden of supporting immigration may be $16 billion annually, this is about one percent of yearly federal tax revenue. Therefore, while immigration may certainly contribute to federal budget deficits, they are not the major source of the fiscal deficits in the US.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 11:21 PM

So much for give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

Never was a fan of that poem. It's certainly not something I personally believe.

It may have been true earlier in our history, but not today. We have enough people now, thank you.

Eaglesfan27

03-25-2006, 11:23 PM

Source: Adeleine Pelner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq.The Journal of the American Physicians and Surgeons, Volume 10 Number 1 - Spring 2005

These are just a few examples of what faces the industry that I am in. I saw a patient two months. He was here on a greencard and had insurance. He cut his finger off and we did a revision amputation. Last week the same patient came into the clinic with a broken ankle. He still had a dressing on the finger. Only this time he had a new name and had NO insurance. Turns out, he had his buddy's greencard. We talked to the OBGYN guys and this guy had three kids while using this alias.

I'm with you that uninsured patients are a significant drain on the healthcare system as it is has caused several psychiatric hospitals in the state to remain closed after Katrina creating an untenable situation in which it is very difficult to find psychiatric beds for patients who desperately need them. However, I think the uninsured patient problem goes far beyond the illegal immigrant issue and that is a relatively minor contribution to the greater problem of uninsured patients.

Desnudo

03-25-2006, 11:25 PM

I would pay good money to see Bubba Wheels, JiMG, and several others mime their posts.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 11:26 PM

Here is a pretty good study that does a cost/benfit analysis of immigrants, both legal and illegal, in the US.:

http://sorrel.humboldt.edu/~economic/econ104/immigrat/

IMMIGRATION
Introduction & Statistics
In sum, direct expenditures result in a net loss of $16 billion, and loss of native wages add another $44 billion for a total cost from immigration of $60 billion.

Too high.

Finally, though the tax payer burden of supporting immigration may be $16 billion annually, this is about one percent of yearly federal tax revenue. Therefore, while immigration may certainly contribute to federal budget deficits, they are not the major source of the fiscal deficits in the US.

Still, too high. 16 billion that would be better served elsewhere.

BrianD

03-25-2006, 11:26 PM

Never was a fan of that poem. It's certainly not something I personally believe.

It may have been true earlier in our history, but not today. We have enough people now, thank you.

I'm curious if anyone else on this board shares this view. I can understand wanting to limit illegal immegration, but I rarely hear people talking about eliminating all immegration.

digamma

03-25-2006, 11:28 PM

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution.

Just so we're clear, that only relates to the requirement that the President be a natural born citizen.

Section 1 of the 14th Amendment is what provides that all persons born in the US are entitled to the rights and privileges of citizenship. The 14th Amendment was, of course, one of the reconstruction amendments passed after the Civil War.

The original Constitution only provided that Congress be empowered to make uniform rules regarding citizenship and naturalization.

primelord

03-25-2006, 11:28 PM

Never was a fan of that poem. It's certainly not something I personally believe.

It may have been true earlier in our history, but not today. We have enough people now, thank you.

Well of course you don't. It was certainly fine for your ancestors to emigrate here, but the people that wish to do that now are undeserving of that priviledge.

I don't disagree that illegal immigration is a problem and I don't have a solution to it. I just have a hard time understanding the hardline stance against people looking for a better life. Especially when the country was formed from people looking for the same thing.

JonInMiddleGA

03-25-2006, 11:29 PM

I would pay good money to see Bubba Wheels, JiMG, and several others mime their posts.

Here ya go, maybe this will help you get the desired effect.
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=586

Meanwhile, I'm not much at miming, but I've got a little sign language for ya if you're ever in the neighborhood.

JonInMiddleGA

03-25-2006, 11:31 PM

Desnudo

03-25-2006, 11:31 PM

Desnudo

03-25-2006, 11:32 PM

st.cronin

03-25-2006, 11:33 PM

PAGE 4!!!!!

Only 70 more pages before we've passed the Maximum Football thread.

cartman

03-25-2006, 11:34 PM

Too high.

Still, too high. 16 billion that would be better served elsewhere.

Another point the article made was to point out the inefficiencies in the system. However, I get the feeling from your posts, that if the $16 billion was moved to the postive side through improving the effiencies, you'd respond that that's not enough.

JonInMiddleGA

03-25-2006, 11:34 PM

Still, too high. 16 billion that would be better served elsewhere.

And, from the figures I've seen consistently, that looks like the estimate for federal costs, and does not include the costs incurred by other governmental entities (California's cost alone is estimated at $10b).

Desnudo

03-25-2006, 11:35 PM

Here ya go, maybe this will help you get the desired effect.
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=586

Meanwhile, I'm not much at miming, but I've got a little sign language for ya if you're ever in the neighborhood.

I think you're being a little oversensitive here. I actually would pay good money to see you, Bubba, and some others mime the posts in this thread. I wasn't saying I'd like to see you all shut up. I'm a big enough boy where I can read things I disagree with or even find ridiculous without running to the ignore button. If I were to use it, there are actually a lot of people higher on the list than you.

JonInMiddleGA

03-25-2006, 11:35 PM

See the paragraph above.

Damned timestamp bug.

cartman

03-25-2006, 11:35 PM

Dola,

I hihglighted that point in the article more to address BW's comment that illegal immigrants were bankrupting the country.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 11:37 PM

I don't disagree that illegal immigration is a problem and I don't have a solution to it. I just have a hard time understanding the hardline stance against people looking for a better life. Especially when the country was formed from people looking for the same thing.

The country was formed by slave owners, but yet we have not slaves now. The country didn't initially allow for women to vote, but yet all citizens have the same rights now. We NEEDED immigrants initially, we don't need them now.

What once was and what is, is two different things.

WVUFAN

03-25-2006, 11:46 PM

Another point the article made was to point out the inefficiencies in the system. However, I get the feeling from your posts, that if the $16 billion was moved to the postive side through improving the effiencies, you'd respond that that's not enough.

Probably right, though I would be more apt to agree with having limited immigration if the effiencies were improved.

I'm certainly not an expert on this subject, as many of you see by my posts. I have no numbers to back my opinion, I can only speak from what I feel. What I see is millions of American citizens who are not getting enough from the social programs we have partially because there are undeserving people in our system using the resources. Our current laws and enforcement of immigration is not working. No one is proposing reasonable changes (and jailing illegals is NOT reasonable). Until we have a law that at least curtails illegal immigration from coming in, I believe the only solution is to close the borders.

Plus, honestly, yes, we should be serving the needs of our current citizens before all else.

Antmeister

03-25-2006, 11:46 PM

I'm curious if anyone else on this board shares this view. I can understand wanting to limit illegal immegration, but I rarely hear people talking about eliminating all immegration.

Uh no.....that seems a little out there. I only agree with him to what is causing the problem. As I had said before, illegal immigration is being allowed to flourish and both of the political parties contributed to its growth. The focus should not be on the people. It should be on the businesses and programs that were put in place to allow this. As said before, how could you blame someone who wants a better quality of life and see that others have been succesful and illegally working in this country. I know I would do the same thing. If the programs and laws weren't in place, there would be no reason to cross the border and more people would fight to improve their life in the land they live in.

RendeR

03-26-2006, 12:01 AM

I hate it when the radical right wing nut-jobs actually take a stance I agree with. It really turns my stomach.

Immagration should not be stopped altogether.

ILLEGAL immagration should be ELIMINATED. period. If you cannot come into the country to work/live/thrive/etc in the LEGAL manner, then you do not have a right to be here or deserve any support while you are here. If vcaught you should be immediately turned over to whatever authorities your native country has to deal with you.

16 Billion, yes with a big fucking B, is still a huge amount of finances. They could and SHOULD be better used to help actual citizens, and/or assist with the LEGAL access of foreigners to our nation.

The give us your tired, your lost....blah blah blah, is nice rhetoric, but is utterly and completely irrelevent to modern society. The United States has some SERIOUS problems. We need to focus on those problems and not take care of everyone ELSES problems.

Selfish? perhaps. Self serving? Definitely. But in the long term, a United States of America that is solid and well managed and cared for internally, will be a MUCH better keeper of the peace and prosperity for the world over.

Think of it like this, we're a big burly guy carrying 3 or 4 other folks (worlds problems) around on our shoulders because they need the help/assistance/whatever. Our internal problems are like blisters, cuts and wounds on our feet and legs causing us to stumble and not be able to support those blokes as well as we could if those problems weren't there.

Fix the American issues, then we can better help the world.

Stop illegal immigration, punish those working with illiegals far more harshly, eliminate a truly useless drain on the American system.

WVUFAN

03-26-2006, 12:08 AM

I hate it when the radical right wing nut-jobs actually take a stance I agree with. It really turns my stomach.

I'm a radical right-wing nut job?

Excellent!

JonInMiddleGA

03-26-2006, 12:10 AM

I'm a radical right-wing nut job?

Excellent!

Congrats :cool:

RendeR

03-26-2006, 12:12 AM

Yes, yer both fucked in the head on most things. It makes me physically ill to actually agree with either of you...

EVER.....

:P

WVUFAN

03-26-2006, 12:13 AM

Yes, yer both fucked in the head on most things. It makes me physically ill to actually agree with either of you...

EVER.....

:P

We agree on role-playing game issues.
I have a feeling if we never talked politics or suicide, we'd get along famously. :)

RendeR

03-26-2006, 12:15 AM

Perhaps, but I have serious "grudge" issues, I'd have to deal with the problems those issues bring up before I could enjoy other interactions.

Its so hard to enjoy someone's company when you think they're a right-wing freak. Its just spoils the whole ambiance.....

Havok

03-26-2006, 12:26 AM

RendeR for teh win

thats how i feel. Im all for L E G A L immigration.

L E G A L L E G A L L E G A L L E G A L

But these people on this thread who just think we should just open the border and let everyone in are crazy. They have no concept of what it will do to their lives in general. Think your taxed alot now? wait until 10 million central/south americans poor into this country every year with no education and can't even speak english. Wait until we have so many of them that there just simply isn't enough jobs for 30-40% of them. Wait until they start rioting like the North Africans in France were doing.

Thats always been my biggest problem with far left wingers(please note that i said far). They always wanna do what 'Feels Good'. It feels good to say... "let everyone in man...woot!". "More more more social programs man...woot!", but it seems like they never stop to think about the consequenses. Just think the good ole' goverment will make it right and take care of us all(and everyone from every other country). How sweet!

The real world doesn't work like that. Only in fantasy la la Hollywood land does that work. Logic is all i ask people to use..... just alittle logic can go a long way. It doesn't make you an evil xenophobe because you wanna regulate immigration and stop people from breaking our laws.

Havok

03-26-2006, 12:28 AM

Right wing freaks suck and so do Left wing freaks.

If i never had to listen to Pat Robertson or Ted Kennady again i'd be a happy man.

Cringer

03-26-2006, 04:17 AM

Well, next time start your own thread. What's that? You've started how many? Oh yeah, you like most followers like to sit in the back of the class and see how things break before you commit. Let's see your big effort non-driving bearded wonder.

Little hard to start a thread when I am still about 800 miles from my computer at the time dumbass. I read the board on my cell phone sometimes while on the road, I can't post with it.

And seeing how you know jack shit about me and the life I have led, I could care less that you are trying to call me a 'follower' or anything else man. :rolleyes: Takes a big man to attempt insults at a guy over the internet, I really am impressed.

Karlifornia

03-26-2006, 04:31 AM

Great thread, and great research presented within (a great deal of which was presented by cartman).

The negatives of immigration have brought our fair country one glaring negative: 9/11. Compare that with the plight of the Native Americans, who welcomed the Europeans with open arms....

One genocide versus one disaster. This county isn't doing too badly with the immgration issue.

Chief Rum

03-26-2006, 05:01 AM

Umm, people around here are lucky to get roof workers AT ALL. We don't have the luxury of being picky. Most contracters change their numbers monthly so they won't be overwhelmed by calls and people begging them for a new roof job. And besides, all the roofers are using illegals. Which are better than inexperienced local labor anyway, because the illegals are more use to construction work of this nature.

That doesn't make any sense. If there's one thing that capitalism does, it tends to make the business world work efficiently toward the goal of making money, and in our society, most businesses not only don't run from jobs, but actually need to keep them to stay in business.

I don't know anything about roofing, and I have never hired a roofer. So I admit I am coming from complete inexperience. But this just sounds like total BS to me. If contractors are running away from these jobs, I think I need to start a roofing business and keep expanding the thing until all of the jobs get done (and rake in a ton of dough while doing it).

Bubba Wheels

03-26-2006, 06:54 AM

Little hard to start a thread when I am still about 800 miles from my computer at the time dumbass. I read the board on my cell phone sometimes while on the road, I can't post with it.

And seeing how you know jack shit about me and the life I have led, I could care less that you are trying to call me a 'follower' or anything else man. :rolleyes: Takes a big man to attempt insults at a guy over the internet, I really am impressed.

So you read that and then had to wait for 800 miles until you could respond? I feel good!:D

Jonathan Ezarik

03-26-2006, 08:13 AM

But these people on this thread who just think we should just open the border and let everyone in are crazy.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen anyone say "Open up the borders and let everyone in!" I think we are all in agreement that illegal immigration is a problem, but the disagreement comes in the solution.

Just curious, but what are the views of those that want no more immigrants (legal or illegal) on the Cubans? As it stands now, if a Cuban makes it to American shores, they can stay, but if caught at sea they must go back to Cuba. Would you want all of them shipped back to Cuba? What about other immigrants that come here for political asylum? Should all the Iraqis that came here during Saddam's reign have been sent back to Iraq?

Subby

03-26-2006, 10:14 AM

cartman/primelord/digamma/celeval/cringer

when I grow up I want to be like one of these guys... :)

Coder

03-26-2006, 10:17 AM

So you read that and then had to wait for 800 miles until you could respond? I feel good!:D

Bubba, please stick to commenting issues and not insulting others. Your entertainment-value rests solely on your political standpoint, not in personal attacks.

duckman

03-26-2006, 11:05 AM

cartman/primelord/digamma/celeval/cringer

when I grow up I want to be like one of these guys... :)

I feel so unloved. :(

Rockstar

03-26-2006, 11:07 AM

Here's your mistake and your own prejudice, friend. You assume that everyone and anyone wanting the laws of this country respected concerning immigration are all racist white men and only those violating these laws are Latinos (what you call 'brown'). Facts are quite different. Many Irish are here illegally who would also be effected, as are many whites from Russia and other central European countries.

And those U.S. citizens who would 1. either like to work those jobs that go to illegals or 2. would receive higher wages for those jobs if the cheap labor pool of illegal immigrants was dried up are not all white men.

So, amazingly Crapshoot, you have not only shown yourself to be the narrow-minded bigot you like to call others, but you are also supporting those big, bad corporate businessmen that want all that cheap labor. Quite an accomplishment on your part.:eek:
So true.

Rockstar

03-26-2006, 11:14 AM

: Takes a big man to attempt insults at a guy over the internet, I really am impressed.

It didnt stop you.

sterlingice

03-26-2006, 11:32 AM

It didnt stop you.

Hmm... you know, he's got a point...

SI

Bubba Wheels

03-26-2006, 12:00 PM

Bubba, please stick to commenting issues and not insulting others. Your entertainment-value rests solely on your political standpoint, not in personal attacks.

Response was not for you, so feel free to not look at it. Call it 'choice.' We conservatives believe in that, long as its 'legal.'

lynchjm24

03-26-2006, 12:22 PM

WE JUST HAD A POST FROM A DOCTOR WHO STATED OTHERWISE!!!

Again with the lack of reading comprehension. You must have gone to public school. He doesn't say he's a doctor and he misspells 'colleagues'.

Just because someone says it on the internet doesn't make it true.

Bubba Wheels

03-26-2006, 12:27 PM

Again with the lack of reading comprehension. You must have gone to public school. He doesn't say he's a doctor and he misspells 'colleagues'.

Just because someone says it on the internet doesn't make it true.

Yeah, and I'll bet his handwriting looks like crap also.

lynchjm24

03-26-2006, 12:33 PM

Response was not for you, so feel free to not look at it. Call it 'choice.' We conservatives believe in that, long as its 'legal.'

Well, not all choice. For example, a woman's choice to have an abortion. That's a legal choice that conservatives don't tend to agree with.

lynchjm24

03-26-2006, 12:34 PM

Yeah, and I'll bet his handwriting looks like crap also.

IT SHOULD!!! HE'S A DOCTOR WITH 11 POSTS!!!!! CAN'T YOU ALL SEE THAT HE IS RIGHT!!!!!

A DOCTOR GODDAMNIT!!! HE'S A DOCTOR!!!!!

Bubba Wheels

03-26-2006, 12:39 PM

Well, not all choice. For example, a woman's choice to have an abortion. That's a legal choice that conservatives don't tend to agree with.

Your right, I should have also added 'moral.'

lynchjm24

03-26-2006, 12:41 PM

Your right, I should have also added 'moral.'

Well, at least we agree on one thing. The invasion will be televised.

Bubba Wheels

03-26-2006, 12:44 PM

IT SHOULD!!! HE'S A DOCTOR WITH 11 POSTS!!!!! CAN'T YOU ALL SEE THAT HE IS RIGHT!!!!!

A DOCTOR GODDAMNIT!!! HE'S A DOCTOR!!!!!

Yeah, he could be lying...but everything in the media suggests he knows what he is talking about. Story about ERs closing in Florida because too many non-payers without insurance using them as 'clinics.' Story just the other day about hospitals in L.A. I believe dumping patients back out on the streets because they can't pay and a picture with it of some poor, older women outside in hospital gown and slippers looking confused.

We just don't have the resources to be the welfare state for the world's uninsured, we can't even properly care for our own citizens. Seems pretty obvious to many, maybe your info shows different? Doubt it.

clintl

03-26-2006, 12:58 PM

lynchjm24

03-26-2006, 01:22 PM

Yeah, he could be lying...but everything in the media suggests he knows what he is talking about. Story about ERs closing in Florida because too many non-payers without insurance using them as 'clinics.' Story just the other day about hospitals in L.A. I believe dumping patients back out on the streets because they can't pay and a picture with it of some poor, older women outside in hospital gown and slippers looking confused.

We just don't have the resources to be the welfare state for the world's uninsured, we can't even properly care for our own citizens. Seems pretty obvious to many, maybe your info shows different? Doubt it.

He's not lying. He's not a doctor. One with reading skills can easily parse that from what he's posted.

I'm in the healthcare insurance industry. I'm an Underwriting Manager at one of the largest carriers. There are no real answers on the horizion. Certainly the HSA/HRA consumer-directed insurance plan the current administration touts is not the answer.

If you don't see the irony of being upset over the healthcare costs of illegal immigrants and trying to make abortion illegal I don't know how I can help you.

Smoking adds much more burden to the American economy through health-care costs then illegal immigrants do, why don't people put their energies towards making that illegal.

The ideas I kick around in my head that might help:

1. The attitudes of American's towards health care need to change. In this country we will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on patients who are terminal to add small amounts of time to their lives. In the future, I feel that will have to change - I'm sorry but giving 3 weeks of time to an 80-year old with terminal cancer is not worth the money in the aggregate. Certainly everyone in that situation feels it's right in their situation, but for the country it doesn't work.

2. Education. Children need to be educated at an early age on how to stay healthy in the first place. Smoking/Drinking/Diet - those are the big three lifestyle decisions that impact the long term costs.

3. The employer sponsored model of providing insurance is running out of time. It is too cost prohibitive to stay competitive in a global economy when other countries do not have this inflationary situation. Everyone is going to have more ownership of their spending. The key is balancing what people need versus what they can afford. Being employed at the industy leader in consumer directed health care, I've been in an HSA plan since they were made legal and an HRA plan before that. It's going to be very painful to a lot of people.

4. Government regulation needs to change. State governments need to change the way they regulate. The laws just add cost to the system. For example in NJ, Advanced Reproductive Therapies are mandated. Why should someone's employer be on the hook to provide 6 cycles of in-vitro fertilzation? I think that New York took some good steps when they cracked down on the brokers. There are way too many brokers who are looking out for their own interests and not the concerns of the plan sponsors.

The uninsured are a huge problem. There are plenty of folks much smarter then me working on that, and I've yet to see an ideas that really even begin to solve the problem. So many of the inflationary concerns in the health-care industry stem from other problems in the economy that it's very difficult to fix one without the other.

Cringer

03-26-2006, 02:32 PM

So you read that and then had to wait for 800 miles until you could respond? I feel good!:D

Not at all what I said.

Maybe go back and re-read my posts sometime. You clearly do not know what I said, and just decided to try to attack me because I mentioned your name in what you conceive to be a negative way.

Eaglesfan27

03-26-2006, 02:33 PM

There are about 45 million uninsured Americans at any one time, and as this article states,

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5224207

over a two-year period recently, there were 82 million who had no health insurance at one time or another.

Meanwhile, there are about 11-12 million illegal immigrants. It's not helping the situation, but these people are only a fraction of the uninsured. If you sent all of them home, the problems caused by serving the uninsured in ERs would still exist.

Exactly my point. During my residency I personally saw hundreds of uninsured patients in the ER at Charity Hospital in New Orleans. I don't believe any of them were illegal immigrants. The issue of uninsured patients and the burdens that they place on the healthcare system is much larger of an issue that will not go away even if via some method there were no illegal immigrants in the USA.

SFL Cat

03-26-2006, 03:02 PM

It wouldn't surprise me if a good percentage of the people protesting ARE illegals. I find it ironic that most of them contribute nothing to the system (most are paid cash under the table and pay no taxes whatsoever) and yet receive most, if not all the benefits of citizens (welfare, medicaid, public education). IMO, they aren't doing themselves any favors with all the protests.

Young Drachma

03-26-2006, 03:11 PM

http://www.nysun.com/article/28835

Story about Irish Illegal immigrants in NY and their push for amnesty.

Cringer

03-26-2006, 03:31 PM

IMO, they aren't doing themselves any favors with all the protests.

Unfortunetly they probably are. Our politicians have seemed pretty weak against this issue up until now. Can't piss off hispanics too much, too large of a voting block now.

kenparker23

03-26-2006, 04:24 PM

For the record, I am an orthopedist. I was registered under the name kparker15. Had to change registration because I changed email. I commented on some of the steroid issues (see posts by kparker15). I do read the board often and post when I see things that interest me. Even physcians can have spelling errors.

Glengoyne

03-26-2006, 05:19 PM

If your paying illegals to work in this country then your stealing. Plain and simple, your a thief.

This is why we don't pay them directly. We pay farm labor contractors, and count on them to verify that the guys pruning the vines are legally here. I'm sure they do that.

Edward64

03-26-2006, 10:07 PM

Too many glasses of wine, but I guess I'll throw my hat in this ridiculous discussion.

The only way the US will be able to compete with China, India, etc., in the coming century will be through immigration. The one totally reliable correlator to GDP growth over the long term is population growth. So if you want the US economy to continue to grow at a steady rate, then you better embrace immigration, and at higher rates than we currently allow, because we aren't making enough American babies to get the job done.

As for the side issue of illegal immigration, if you can pass a security check, you should be able to come on in. See the paragraph above.

Desnudo. I agree with you on population growth. To keep up with China and India, the U.S. will have to increase its population. The best way to do this is not illegal immigration but encourage a 'brain drain' from other countries into the U.S. In the 80s and 90s, Indians and Chinese wanted to come over to the U.S. and stay. This does not seem to be as true anymore due to those countries economies growing ... however, why can't we encourage more of the talent from other 3rd world countries through targeted immigration policies?

Ex. Anyone foreign student that gets a graduate degree in the U.S. (and passes the security checks) gets to stay.

I would also be for some sort of legislation that encourage increased births (ex. bigger tax breaks? subsidized day care?). Our demographics are not as bad as the European countries but we need something to keep up with China and India.

As for illegal immigration, specifically illegals who work illegally in the U.S. It should not be allowed. With that said, the immigration/work permit rules should be changed to allow more workers from Mexico to work legally in the U.S. I believe GB and Vincente Fox were working towards this goal before 911 changed the landscape.

As a side note. As for the argument that the U.S. does not have anymore room for more immigrants ... everytime I'm on a plane and looking down, I think to myself that there is so much land around.

JeffNights

03-26-2006, 10:30 PM

Klinglerware

03-26-2006, 10:39 PM

Oral or written?

RendeR

03-26-2006, 10:50 PM

This is why we don't pay them directly. We pay farm labor contractors, and count on them to verify that the guys pruning the vines are legally here. I'm sure they do that.

Please tell me this was sarcasm. Please.....

Galaxy

03-26-2006, 10:54 PM

One thing I keep hearing is reclaiming California back to Mexico? How would that help the illegal immigrants? Wouldn't it make it Mexico (and the businesses, Americans and wealth would move to other states) all over again, and make the Hispanics flee to other states?

RendeR

03-26-2006, 10:58 PM

It boils my blood to see all these illegals crying about if new tougher immigration laws get passed thir RIGHTS will be violated...THEY DONT HAVE ANY RIGHTS UNDER AMERICAN LAW...

...Come here legally i'm all for ya, come here illegally, suck up the healthcare system, commit crimes, and fail to learn proper fucking English...then we got problems.

While not as vehemently as jeff here, I have to agree. Especially on the language issue. I understand that this country is built upon a melting pot of hundreds of other cultures. Its a great story, but this is not the 19th century any longer, we've grown beyond those old fashioned whimsies.

We've existed for over 200 years and have...what...10-15 generations of truly United States natives?

There is something to be said for trying to keep "american" culture alive and well. While there is no national language, per sey, I think there should be. People born and raised in this country speak english. Like the language or not, its ours, and I think if you want to be a citizen here, you need to speak damned near as well as a native of the country. Writing I can understand might be harder, but if you can't communicate well, you're doing a disservice to the country you claim to want to be a citizen of.

end pet peeve rant.

BrianD

03-26-2006, 11:19 PM

While not as vehemently as jeff here, I have to agree. Especially on the language issue. I understand that this country is built upon a melting pot of hundreds of other cultures. Its a great story, but this is not the 19th century any longer, we've grown beyond those old fashioned whimsies.

We've existed for over 200 years and have...what...10-15 generations of truly United States natives?

There is something to be said for trying to keep "american" culture alive and well. While there is no national language, per sey, I think there should be. People born and raised in this country speak english. Like the language or not, its ours, and I think if you want to be a citizen here, you need to speak damned near as well as a native of the country. Writing I can understand might be harder, but if you can't communicate well, you're doing a disservice to the country you claim to want to be a citizen of.

end pet peeve rant.

I'm going to piggy-back on this post since I've been feeling many of the same things. It really bothers me to see people waving Mexican flags, or whining that there needs to be more catering to foreign speaking people. I can understand that people want to leave their countries and come here for chance at a better life, but if they want the American way of life, I think they should be willing to become Americans. If they don't want to become American, then I think they should at least respect our way of life and do what they can to fit in. American culture will gradually shift to incorporate other cultures, but the individuals are going to have to do the most adjusting.

Klinglerware

03-26-2006, 11:36 PM

Build the fucking wall already.....It boils my blood to see all these illegals crying about if new tougher immigration laws get passed thir RIGHTS will be violated...THEY DONT HAVE ANY RIGHTS UNDER AMERICAN LAW. dammit.

Oh i also strongly disagree with the poster who said that verteran dont get mad over seeing them march down the street with thier mexican flag, well i'm a Vet and I think its a disgrace. Most of them illegals are wishing that they could reclaim California back to mexico.

Come here legally i'm all for ya, come here illegally, suck up the healthcare system, commit crimes, and fail to learn proper fucking English...then we got problems.

I'm typically loathe to take shots at other people's mastery of written English, since my own posts can be rather sloppy. But it is pretty hard not to see the irony of advocating a certain quality standard of communication when the post advocating this may not meet said standard...

ISiddiqui

03-26-2006, 11:43 PM

Galaxy

03-26-2006, 11:48 PM

Hey, with my experience of Grad students who were TA's at undergrad, I can definitively say that many people here legally have problems speaking the language. Hell, many illegals probably can speak English better than some of them!
Reminds me the time back in my junior year of high school. We had an English Regents (a statewide high school exam on either two or three years of English), in which a foreign exchange student from Germany scored the highest in our class.

Glengoyne

03-27-2006, 12:14 AM

Please tell me this was sarcasm. Please.....

No I mean really that is how this works now. We didn't directly pay the guys who pruned the vines a month or so back. We won't directly pay the crew that will come pick the grapes when it is time to put the raisins down either. All of it is done through farm labor contractors. They guarantee that all of the labor is documented and legal.

We have created an entire industry that didn't used to exist to prevent farmers from directly hiring field labor.

Franklinnoble

03-27-2006, 12:16 AM

OK... this thread basically sucks... but can we at least stop the crazy talk about California being 'returned' to Mexico.

The state of California, by itself, is the 5th largest economy in the world. I can guarantee we'd nuke Mexico City before we let that happen, O.K.? Seriously... it's not even remotely feasible. We'd sooner give the Northeastern United States back to the British, or the territory from the Louisiana Purchase back to the French, or Alaska back to the Russians.

I mean, damn. Even if every latino in the western united states decided to take up arms and "claim" California, there's no way the United States would let that happen. So, please, for the love of God, knock of the crazy talk.

st.cronin

03-27-2006, 12:25 AM

So, please, for the love of God, knock of the crazy talk.

NEVER

Bubba Wheels

03-27-2006, 01:14 AM

Not at all what I said.

Maybe go back and re-read my posts sometime. You clearly do not know what I said, and just decided to try to attack me because I mentioned your name in what you conceive to be a negative way.

Whatever, I get a little tired by some of the useless bushwackers with nothing to add other than a personal attack on me. If that's not what your about then my apologies.

Ragone

03-27-2006, 02:20 AM

this may come out sounding bad... but

if you are in this country illegally.. you shouldn't have any rights, other then the very most basic ones that every human being should.. (right to fair trial.. etc)

not the rights they have been complaining for (Right to get a drivers liscense? wtf?)

clintl

03-27-2006, 08:55 AM

not the rights they have been complaining for (Right to get a drivers liscense? wtf?)

Well, there are a couple of ways to look at that particular issue. One is that view. The other is that since the federal government seems unable to keep them out, and they are going drive with or without a license, maybe the states letting them have a license so we know who they are and so they can buy auto insurance isn't such a terrible idea.

Crapshoot

03-27-2006, 09:00 AM

You need to reread your own post. Concentrate on the word 'legal.'

You need to re-read WVUfan's post - he wants to close "ALL" Immigration.

flere-imsaho

03-27-2006, 09:00 AM

I mean, damn. Even if every latino in the western united states decided to take up arms and "claim" California, there's no way the United States would let that happen. So, please, for the love of God, knock of the crazy talk.

For the first time in, oh, maybe 7 months, I agree with Franklinnoble.

Crapshoot

03-27-2006, 09:01 AM

Fair trade, not Free trade.

HAhahahahaha - Bubba, you're aping the "Starbucks" slogan. This is hilarious. What is "fair" trade ?

Crapshoot

03-27-2006, 09:05 AM

flere-imsaho

03-27-2006, 09:06 AM

As long as there are jobs available that no American citizen wants to do (fruit picking, toilet cleaning, lawn mowing), American will continue to have illegal aliens in the country, doing these jobs.

As usual, folks like Bubba want to control the effect (illegal immigrants) instead of the cause (job no one wants to do because a) they pay below minimum wage and b) they don't adhere to any reasonable workplace standards, such as, oh, working for 18 hours straight without breaks).

Butter

03-27-2006, 09:06 AM

OK... this thread basically sucks..

What, a BW thread sucks? NO WAY.

Cringer

03-27-2006, 09:24 AM

I just wish the Mexicans would stop stealing our fish.

Read Me (http://www.woai.com/news/state/story.aspx?content_id=AD368E10-842A-481D-B73F-6B794076A520)

heybrad

03-27-2006, 09:37 AM

Well, there are a couple of ways to look at that particular issue. One is that view. The other is that since the federal government seems unable to keep them out, and they are going drive with or without a license, maybe the states letting them have a license so we know who they are and so they can buy auto insurance isn't such a terrible idea.
Clint... Don't you think this is a bit of wishful thinking to say that a person who is willing to enter the country illegally is going to get a drivers license and then buy insurance? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it happening.

Blade6119

03-27-2006, 09:38 AM

Sure, if you make it up.
As a fellow Phoenix resident, you know as well as i do those numbers arent made up...maybe a bit too low really

SirFozzie

03-27-2006, 09:40 AM

heybrad

Blade6119

03-27-2006, 09:41 AM

cartman

03-27-2006, 09:49 AM

GAG...that was a horrid argument back cartman. Use situations with illegal aliens and ill listen, but comparing illegal aliens marching in cali to the G8 protests is laughable...stunningly laughable

What are your reasons for disagreeing? They both had large numbers of foreign borns protesting openly on American streets, and neither one was called an invasion. If anything, the demonstrations in LA over the weekend were much less violent, with no reports of violent activity and no one was arrested.

That was the point I was getting at. Just because there are large numbers of people protesting in the streets against a policy doesn't make it an invasion. The discussion steered very far away from the initial invasion discussion.

cartman

03-27-2006, 09:58 AM

Here is a link from the Center for Immigration studies that does a good job of framing the current issues. It also does a good job of dispelling many myths surrounding the current situation.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back106.html

Some popular misconceptions:

The majority of immigrants here today are here illegally

Not true. The article states that of the current immigrants (those here, but not born here), between 20% and 30% are consisdered illegal.

The majority of illegal immigrants get here by crossing the border illegally

Again, not true. As the report states, most illegal aliens are here on expired visa, be they student, visitor, business, or other type. The arguement can be made that if they got a visa with the express purpose of entering the US to not return, then the intent was to commit a crime, the fact of the matter is that they had a legal right to enter the US with their valid visa. The construction of a wall at the border will do nothing to stem the flow of these kinds of illegal immigrants.

The article goes on further to make some solid recommendations on how to address the issue going forward. Some I agree with, others not so much. But overall the report does a good job of framing the current situation, describing actions taken in the past that have gotten us to where we are, and prescribing some remedies to affect future scenarios.

lungs

03-27-2006, 12:03 PM

As somebody who directly supervises Latinos, as I believe I've talked about earlier here, this is quite an interesting and sticky topic for myself.

I do not work for a big corporation, I work on my father's family farm. It is organized as a corporation but not in the sense you would commonly view a corporation. In other words, my father owns 100% of the stock.

In the past, families used to provide all the labor on farms. Previously, on our farm the family provided all the labor along with maybe one hired hand. Economic conditions have basically forced smaller farmers to grow in order to survive. In turn there was a need for more labor.

We first doubled our size about 10 years ago. When looking for help, we had some distinct disadvantages to other low skill jobs. Our pay would not necessarily be the best but when considering benefits we give (free housing), pay is not a huge disadvantage. But the fact that a farm needs to operate 365 days a year and in many cases today nearly 24 hours a day really makes it unattractive. It's not something that can be changed, either. It's pretty tedious work and the most exciting thing you may get to do is drive a skid steer.

With these expanded farm sizes, the families role has shifted much more to a management role instead of management AND labor. Originally we couldn't find any decent Americans around the area. We have plenty of factories around that give weekends off. The rural Wisconsinite usually loves their weekends off for two reasons: Drinking Beer and watching the Packers. A job without many weekends off isn't an easy sell.

The first solution we had was bringing guest workers from the former Soviet Union. This was probably around 5 years after the fall of the Soviet Union so these people were interesting to work with to say the least.

After 9/11 a combination of tighter restrictions on Russian guest workers and the Russian businessman we dealt with being a shady jackass who stole money from our guest workers caused us a new labor problem.

Around the same time a Colombian businessman approached us about using Latino labor. So we signed a contract with him and we pay him each month and he always keeps our positions filled. The contract guarrantees their legality. They have social security cards. They pay taxes. Everything sounds good on the surface. But I'm guessing most are illegal.

We do have a Colombian veterinarian on staff but we go through a lawyer and a long process of clearing him with a work visa. Once again, this is a position we could fill with an American but this guy is a family member of a former employee that had a known skill level we desired. Merely a personal preference.

The solution in my mind is to allow more guest workers. I would gladly go through the process we go through with the skilled position and show a need to fill the position with a guest worker. As long as the corrupt Mexican government isn't involved.

Interestingly, I asked a central American employee of mine which border was easier to get across, Mexico or the United States. He laughed and said at the Mexico/Guatemala border he just approaches a soldier and asks to do a little business, gives him a little bribe and he can get across. The US is more difficult but usually you can get across in a few tries or pay a coyote.

I hope something can be resolved quickly that maintains a reasonable way for people who demonstrate the need to still get unskilled guest workers. But something that resembles indentured servitude needs to be avoided also.

It's a shitty situation for the United States because Mexico's economic conditions compared to our economic conditions brings this whole migration on. Maybe we should have just taken all of Mexico in the Mexican-American War and the point would be moot today.

clintl

03-27-2006, 05:17 PM

Clint... Don't you think this is a bit of wishful thinking to say that a person who is willing to enter the country illegally is going to get a drivers license and then buy insurance? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it happening.

Certainly some will not buy insurance. Maybe most. But they are going to get driver's licenses - they want driver's licenses so they can get bank accounts and send money back to family in Mexico easier. And I think, aside from the insurance issue, there is some value to us in them having official ID. People who get so wound up thinking that a driver's license confers some kind of legitimacy to their residency (it doesn't, by the way) are failing to see how them having a license can benefit the rest of us.

st.cronin

03-27-2006, 05:26 PM

It would certainly open the gates to voter fraud as all it takes to register to vote is a drivers license.

It takes less than that in quite a few states.

heybrad

03-27-2006, 05:29 PM

People who get so wound up thinking that a driver's license confers some kind of legitimacy to their residency (it doesn't, by the way) are failing to see how them having a license can benefit the rest of us.
It would certainly open the gates to voter fraud as all it takes to register to vote is a drivers license.

clintl

03-27-2006, 05:48 PM

It would certainly open the gates to voter fraud as all it takes to register to vote is a drivers license.

That could easily be addressed.

Greyroofoo

03-27-2006, 07:09 PM

but will it?

JonInMiddleGA

03-27-2006, 07:16 PM

Meanwhile, a little (okay, almost tiny) bit of good news ...
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/14198402.htm

Posted on Mon, Mar. 27, 2006
Georgia lawmakers reach accord on immigration
SHANNON McCAFFREY
Associated Press

ATLANTA - Georgia House and Senate members reached agreement Monday on sweeping immigration legislation to crack down on adults living in the country illegally and the employers who knowingly hire them.

The state Senate gave the bill final passage by a vote of 39 to 16. The House was expected to take up the measure later this week.

If it is signed into law, Georgia will be the among the first states with legislation tackling such a broad range of immigration issues, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures and advocates from both sides of the aisle.

"They're out of the gate first," said Ann Morse, program director for the National Conference of State Legislatures.

The bill would verify that adults seeking many state-administered benefits - like non-emergency medical care and unemployment checks - are in the country legally. It would also sanction employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, punishing them through the tax code.

Companies seeking state contracts must verify that their workers are not illegal immigrants. The bill would mandate that police officers screen the immigration status of people they arrest. It would put in place strict new human trafficking laws.
...
Tisha Tallman, Southeast regional counsel for the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund, called the Georgia bill "inhumane and potentially unconstitutional." She said a legal challenge was likely.

Mike Hethmon, general counsel for legal arm of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, said he expected other states would follow Georgia's lead and said the bill had been drawn up with an eye to a trip through the courts.

"The bill that's going to be signed, I think, is pretty much lawsuit-proof in constitutional terms," Hethmon said.

As of Feb. 26, legislators in 42 states had introduced 368 bills related to immigration, according to the National Conference on State Legislatures.

Meanwhile, if you'd like to read the full text of the bill yourself, there should be a searchable database (you're looking for Senate Bill 529) at http://www.legis.state.ga.us/

bronconick

03-27-2006, 07:17 PM

Blade6119

03-27-2006, 07:22 PM

What are your reasons for disagreeing? They both had large numbers of foreign borns protesting openly on American streets, and neither one was called an invasion. If anything, the demonstrations in LA over the weekend were much less violent, with no reports of violent activity and no one was arrested.

That was the point I was getting at. Just because there are large numbers of people protesting in the streets against a policy doesn't make it an invasion. The discussion steered very far away from the initial invasion discussion.
I agree with your second point, at first the first part of it if you follow. I agree protesting against a policy in large numbers is not an invasion, foreign born protesters or american. The issue i have, is this thread is not about protesting a policy. Here is the first post, in which your original reply was aimed towards:

Tens of thousands of illegals openly marching in the downtown areas of major cities, waving Mexican flags and chanting 'Mexico! Mexico!" One of the organizations of the event, La Rosa (the Race) openly advocates returning California to Mexican soveriegnty. Why is this not an invasion?

They are not protesting a policy, they are advocating a foreign government, as well as that government taking land away from America. And the assumption is many of those protesters(correct or not) are illegal aliens, which means they are not protected under the constitution with the right to freely protest. Your examples are all over policies, and i agree they are all fine. This is not an issue of policy. I think that if US citizens want to protest, they have every right to. This isnt an issue of are we willing to do their jobs, salary, or anything else. Its as simple as if they are not citizens they dont have the right to protest. Im sure a small contingent of them were, and those can do whatever they want. But id bet a lot of money most were not citizens.

clintl

03-27-2006, 08:47 PM

but will it?

They are not likely to get driver's licenses here in California anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point unless something changes dramatically.

clintl

03-27-2006, 08:50 PM

They are not protesting a policy, they are advocating a foreign government, as well as that government taking land away from America.

They were not. There were plenty of American flags being carried by the protesters, too.

EagleFan

03-27-2006, 09:31 PM

As usual, folks like Bubba want to control the effect (illegal immigrants) instead of the cause (job no one wants to do because a) they pay below minimum wage and b) they don't adhere to any reasonable workplace standards, such as, oh, working for 18 hours straight without breaks).

Or maybe they: "a) they pay below minimum wage and b) they don't adhere to any reasonable workplace standards, such as, oh, working for 18 hours straight without breaks)/" because employers find cheap illegal workers to do it under the table. Cut their source of illegals and you force them to improve conditions and pay. How about trying out a little better logic next time, though that is a major challenge for a liberal so I "feel your pain"?

BrianD

03-27-2006, 09:47 PM

Or maybe they: "a) they pay below minimum wage and b) they don't adhere to any reasonable workplace standards, such as, oh, working for 18 hours straight without breaks)/" because employers find cheap illegal workers to do it under the table. Cut their source of illegals and you force them to improve conditions and pay. How about trying out a little better logic next time, though that is a major challenge for a liberal so I "feel your pain"?

If the problem is poor wages and labor conditions, why not just enforce the labor laws we already have on the books. Building border walls and enacting new legislation to replace existing non-enforced laws seems like a lot of extra effort.