Duke lacrosse thugs?

[JW]

If true, pretty sad.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/14189543.htm

Dancer reports rape by Duke lacrosse players
46 submit DNA to police; team members had off-campus party

Associated PressDURHAM - A dancer who reported that she was raped by members of the Duke University lacrosse team said she thought she would be dancing for five men at a bachelor party, but she and another woman were surrounded by dozens.

Men shouted racial slurs at the women, both black, she said in an interview with The News & Observer of Raleigh.

"We started to cry," she said. "We were so scared."

No arrests had been made by late Saturday after 46 members of the men's team submitted DNA samples to police.

"We're asking someone from the lacrosse team to step forward," Durham police Cpl. David Addison said. "We will be relentless in finding out who committed this crime."

Duke's athletics director said Saturday that the team will forfeit its next two games -- a match Saturday against Georgetown and one Tuesday against Mount St. Mary's.

"I am dismayed by the party on March 13 held by members of the men's lacrosse team at an off-campus residence," Joe Alleva said in a statement.
He said the players deny the criminal allegations.

"Several players who were present acknowledge, however, that they did hire private party dancers and that underage drinking occurred," Alleva said.

The woman said the reported assault took place in the early hours of March 14 near Duke's East Campus. She said she worked for an escort service to help support her two children and pay for classes at N.C. Central University.
Police records show officers have been called to the house where the reported rape occurred four times since September.

A neighbor, Jason Bissey, said he should have called police when he noticed something was wrong. He said he saw at least 30 men enter the home, which Duke officials said is rented by three lacrosse team captains.

Bissey said he heard one of the men yell racial comments at the victim.

[ScottVib]

If this turns out to be true forfeiting 2 games may not be enough, IMO.

Edit - Note, obviously I'm only talking about a team-wide punishment... obviously anyone guilty deserves whatever the law would do to them and then some.

[terpkristin]

...Duke's athletics director said Saturday that the team will forfeit its next two games -- a match Saturday against Georgetown and one Tuesday against Mount St. Mary's...

If the story is true, they should have to forfeit two games that matter. Georgetown isn't exactly a pushover, but MSM is.

/tk

[ScottVib]

Personally to me if its' true they should forfeit the season.

The players hosting the party are the squads three captains, 46 members of the team had to submit DNA. The captains are supposed to represent the squad, and for 46 players to be reasonably compelled to provide DNA it would seem to indicate some sort of teamwide incident (beyond the admitted underage drinking).

[Klinglerware]

Latest article states that 15 members of the team had priors on their records. That's almost 1/3 of the team, which just seems amazing to me. Granted, most of the charges are alcohol-related, but it sure doesn't look good from an institutional-control/team-culture aspect.

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/422787.html

15 players had prior charges
Lacrosse team at Duke under fire

In the past three years, about a third of the members of the Duke lacrosse team, under investigation in a reported gang rape, have been charged with misdemeanors stemming from drunken and disruptive behavior, court records show.

Of the team's 47 members, 15 faced charges including underage alcohol possession, having open containers of alcohol, loud noise and public urination.

Most of those charges were resolved in deals with prosecutors that allowed the players to escape criminal convictions.

On Monday, details continued to emerge in the March 13 incident in which a woman who was hired as an exotic dancer for a lacrosse team party said she was held down, beaten, strangled, raped and sodomized. When the woman and another dancer began their routines, the woman said, one of the men watching held up a broomstick and threatened to sexually assault the women, according to court documents released Monday.

The women were told that the men at the party were members of the baseball or track teams, apparently to hide their identities, according to a document that was used to obtain a judge's order requiring each member of the team to submit to a DNA test. After the broomstick threat, the women left but were followed out by a man who persuaded them to return, the document says. That's when, the woman said, three men pushed her into a bathroom and began the assault, which she said lasted for 30 minutes. She lost four fingernails as she scratched at one of the men who was strangling her, according to the document.

[Philliesfan980]

Absolutely disgusting. Wow, imagine going to Duke and then getting a rape added to your record. Bye bye life. Nobody's going to hire them for a professional job. Imagine sitting in jail thinking "I went to duke, now I'm here because I raped someone".

Wow.

[st.cronin]

Latest article states that 15 members of the team had priors on their records. That's almost 1/3 of the team, which just seems amazing to me. Granted, most of the charges are alcohol-related, but it sure doesn't look good from an institutional-control/team-culture aspect.

Imagine if 1/3 of the Miami Hurricanes football team had criminal charges?

[Warhammer]

Imagine if 1/3 of the Miami Hurricanes football team had criminal charges?

They've really been cleaning up their act!

[ScottVib]

The team has now been suspended indefinitely pending the outcome of the investigation

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2387151

[Chubby]

Interesting. A kid my mom taught in HS is on Duke and his parents are friends with my mom. I'll have to see if she's heard more.

[cuervo72]

Off topic, but holy cow, Duke costs $43k a year now? My kids better be real smart (and motivated to get scholarships), or like state school...

Back when I was at Hopkins, there was a lax player who was absolutely scary...reminded me of Ogre from Revenge of the Nerds (and seemed about as destructive). It was pretty apparent he was there just for lax...I'd imagine some of these guys were there just for that too.

[Chubby]

Hopkins is evil, that's why :)

Eerily, the player my mom knows... his older brother plays lacrosse at hopkins as well...

[Klinglerware]

Off topic, but holy cow, Duke costs $43k a year now? My kids better be real smart (and motivated to get scholarships), or like state school...


If it makes you feel any better, if you make a middle-class income, you are unlikely to pay full sticker price at a place like Duke. In fact, depending on your income, some of these schools may end up being very comparable cost-wise to state school (after financial aid is factored in).

On topic, some of these players with prior charges had them for relatively minor crimes. Getting a second chance seems reasonable to me in these cases. However, it just seems plain reckless for these guys with records to expose themselves a second time like this, especialy in-season. I'd be a bit more careful if I were on strike 2, with a clean criminal record, Duke scholarship, and degree on the line...

[Groundhog]

I'd be a bit more careful if I were on strike 2, with a clean criminal record, Duke scholarship, and degree on the line...

A *bit* more careful? Jeez, it's not like they stole a loaf of bread or anything. Beating and gang raping a woman is much more than mere carelessness - it's a horrible crime and all players involved should get their asses thrown in jail.

[cuervo72]

Hopkins is evil

Well sure, that's a given (and I think they have long been planning the eventual takeover of Maryland, but that's just me).


If it makes you feel any better, if you make a middle-class income, you are unlikely to pay full sticker price at a place like Duke. In fact, depending on your income, some of these schools may end up being very comparable cost-wise to state school (after financial aid is factored in)

Could well be - I came from a decidedly middle-class family, and I managed Hopkins; might have been around $20k a year then, and half of that was probably taken care of with grants, and for the last two years there was a good chunk in college loans as well (w00t, finally paid those off in Jan).

now, back to your regularly scheduled thug athlete thread

[Klinglerware]

A *bit* more careful? Jeez, it's not like they stole a loaf of bread or anything. Beating and gang raping a woman is much more than mere carelessness - it's a horrible crime and all players involved should get their asses thrown in jail.

Of course. I should have been more specific--the players with priors for something alcohol-related should been careful about being at an alcohol event, especially at a house that was a known commodity to the local police.

[Klinglerware]

(w00t, finally paid those off in Jan).



Congrats. I think I have about 25 years to go on my student loans...

[CraigSca]

Reading more, there have been protests inside and outside the campus because of the racial ramifications. Apparently Durham is a racially-mixed, middle and lower-middle class town, so there's backlash against what is believed to be the "typical" Duke student (that can afford $43k a year).

[Klinglerware]

Search warrant on the Smoking Gun site:

hxxp://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke1.html

Looks like the first names of the alleged assailants are mentioned in the document. Which is probably why the roster page on the Duke athletics web-site has been taken down...

[BuffaloHuskey]

Not defending what they did, but I do not think it is fair to necessary categorize the Duke players as thugs just because 1/3 of the team has been CHARGED, not CONVICTED of a misedeamenor. I have several friends who were arrested for various drinking/fake id/misc stupid college kid crimes who were charged with misdemeanors but only were convicted of violations.

The rape thing is obviously taking it to another level and is totally dispicable, but I would not make anything out of 1/3 of the team having been charged with a misdemeanor at one time. If they were charged with Felony's maybe that is one thing but it is not very hard to get charged with a misdemeanor when you live in a college town and party for four years straight. If you end up with a conviction of a misdemeanor, you must really have screwed up becuase normally they will let college kids plead down to a violation and pay a fine.

[Chubby]

Are you sure it's the assailants and not the team members who were living in the house?

[astrosfan64]

If the rape is true, that is really bad.

But at this point, you are taking the word of a stripper? What if she made things up because, she wouldn't get any more money? Remember that happened with a basketball team before.

We have no clue if this is true. Untill the court case, we shouldn't assume everything the stripper says is true.

[GrantDawg]

If the rape is true, that is really bad.

But at this point, you are taking the word of a stripper? What if she made things up because, she wouldn't get any more money? Remember that happened with a basketball team before.

We have no clue if this is true. Untill the court case, we shouldn't assume everything the stripper says is true.


The fact there is DNA suggests she may be telling the truth. Then of course there is the physical damage from the beating that would be apparent.

[astrosfan64]

I don't see any mention of physical damage done to the stripper in the article. In fact, if she scratched one who was strangling her, there should be a scratch mark on one of them. She accused them of all of these things, but I haven't noticed comments from law enforcement saying she was severly beaten or had strangle marks on her neck etc...

[GrantDawg]

I don't see any mention of physical damage done to the stripper in the article. In fact, if she scratched one who was strangling her, there should be a scratch mark on one of them. She accused them of all of these things, but I haven't noticed comments from law enforcement saying she was severly beaten or had strangle marks on her neck etc...


It is in the article that she says these things happened. So, you're saying she made the claims these happened, the police looked at her and didn't find any physical indication that it did happen, but they still got a search warrant and DNA samples. Why? All of the police are North Carolina fans?

[Greyroofoo]

The 3 athletes who committed the rape should be on the receiving end of a prison in-mate named Marcy.

[astrosfan64]

It is in the article that she says these things happened. So, your saying she made the claims these happened, the police looked at her and didn't find any physical indication that it did happen, but they still got a search warrant and DNA samples. Why? All of the police are North Carolina fans?

I wish I could find that article related to one of the div 1 college basketball teams. I think it was St. Joes, but it was the same story and she turned out to be lying.

[Chubby]

It is in the article that she says these things happened. So, you're saying she made the claims these happened, the police looked at her and didn't find any physical indication that it did happen, but they still got a search warrant and DNA samples. Why? All of the police are North Carolina fans?

I'm not saying the lax players are innocent but if the cops are "townies" (for lack of a better term) then it's certainly possible they are going to go full bore on this even if there's little evidence (and i don't know how much there is)

[GrantDawg]

I wish I could find that article related to one of the div 1 college basketball teams. I think it was St. Joes, but it was the same story and she turned out to be lying.


I'm sure, but that case is not this case. To quote the DA:

"I needed to have the information about who will be charged," said District Attorney Mike Nifong said. "I feel pretty confident that a rape occurred."

[st.cronin]

I wish I could find that article related to one of the div 1 college basketball teams. I think it was St. Joes, but it was the same story and she turned out to be lying.

Are you thinking of St. John's? The way I remember the story, they hired a girl to have sex with all of them, then refused to pay her. Somebody had recorded the event on their cell phone camera.

[astrosfan64]

Are you thinking of St. John's? The way I remember the story, they hired a girl to have sex with all of them, then refused to pay her. Somebody had recorded the event on their cell phone camera.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9504E4D6133AF931A25751C0A9629C8B63

Yeah St. Johns....

[GrantDawg]

I'm not saying the lax players are innocent but if the cops are "townies" (for lack of a better term) then it's certainly possible they are going to go full bore on this even if there's little evidence (and i don't know how much there is)


But a DA is a political creature, and Duke owns Durham. I doubt very seriously that he would purposely sabotage a National Championship of the university without good reason.

[GrantDawg]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9504E4D6133AF931A25751C0A9629C8B63

Yeah St. Johns....

In that case, she was quickly proven a liar and charges were brought against her. Not happening here where the DA believes that the rape did occur.

[GrantDawg]

This is the fourth page of the search warrant that describes what the accuser said happened. Notice she says she was hit, kicked, and strangled, as well as anally raped. There is no way the police go forward on this case if there were no physical evidence of this, and the evidence would have been very easily seen.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke4.html

[JonInMiddleGA]

Reading more, there have been protests inside and outside the campus because of the racial ramifications. Apparently Durham is a racially-mixed, middle and lower-middle class town, so there's backlash against what is believed to be the "typical" Duke student (that can afford $43k a year).

Okay, I saw this comment earlier & now I've seen the wire service article talking about the same aspect ... but now I'm confused by something in that story, so I'll throw it in here.

Here's a link to the full story
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/sports/stories/0330sptduke.html

Now here's the quote that I don't exactly get
The words could be much worse among North Carolina Central students right now. Alexcia Harris, a junior at Central who was asked about that Wednesday afternoon, wasn't particularly harsh, but couldn't help but believe there was a double standard at work.

"If it happened on our campus, she wouldn't get justice," said Harris, a criminal justice major. "If it happens at an ACC [Atlantic Coast Conference] school, she'll get justice. There have been a number of things that happened here. A girl got robbed around here the other day at gunpoint. They want to make excuses. They want to know why she was out late."

Okay, the article talked about how historically black NC-Central, just several miles from the Duke campus was reacting. I get that part.
And the article talked about how this was a working class black victim claiming she was attacked by rich white guys. I get that part.

But, for the life of me, it sounds like Alexcia Harris is saying that the alleged victim will get treated better because the attackers are "from an ACC school" (presumably she means a rich white school).

If the racial element is a big part of the story, doesn't it stand more to reason that she would get treated worse by authorities if the attackers were white instead of getting a more thorough investigation because the alleged attackers are white? Basically, I read her as trying to claim that, if the crime were black-on-black it would be ignored but since it's allegedly white-on-black then it's going to be investigated ... which might make sense right up until you realize that the people going to jail are going to be white & that ain't exactly the model of racism I usually see being decried.

I can't tell if the quote is out of context & that's what's making it sound kinda screwy or if the interviewee just got tongue-tied or if she's just talked herself into a circle and really didn't know what the hell she was trying to say.

Anybody want to take a crack at making sense of it?

[BishopMVP]

"If it happened on our campus, she wouldn't get justice," said Harris, a criminal justice major. "If it happens at an ACC [Atlantic Coast Conference] school, she'll get justice. There have been a number of things that happened here. A girl got robbed around here the other day at gunpoint. They want to make excuses. They want to know why she was out late."

I can't tell if the quote is out of context & that's what's making it sound kinda screwy or if the interviewee just got tongue-tied or if she's just talked herself into a circle and really didn't know what the hell she was trying to say.

Anybody want to take a crack at making sense of it?I'd guess either interviewee/interview getting confused, combined with most people suffering from a persecution complex.


Overall, this is a horrible story all around. I don't want to speculate too much without knowing all the facts, but A) based off what I've heard they completely deserve to have their season cancelled and B) absent the rape aspect, this really isn't that different than what most athletic teams do. See also the 15 out of 46 being charged with a misdemeanor. I'd wager that 1 out of 3 would hold true for most college males, especially those athletically inclined.

Chubby - the way I read the smoking gun report, it indicated they were the assailants, but from what I heard secondhand it was the kids who owned the house that were listed.

[spcd]

Can anyone explain how DNA tests, blood tests, or blowing into a breathalizer for that matter, get around Constitutional protection against self-incrimination?

Nothing really to do with what happened in this particular case, but I would have thought being forced to submit to a medical procedure to be an obvious example of being compelled to give evidence against yourself.

:confused:

[Samdari]

See also the 15 out of 46 being charged with a misdemeanor. I'd wager that 1 out of 3 would hold true for most college males, especially those athletically inclined.

Yeah, I think they are way playing up that angle is out of control. The reporting of 1/3 having been charged with offenses like underage possession, loud noise and public urination such in an attempt to make them look like thugs or persistent scofflaws is a joke. I am disgusted by the thought that 3 men did this and that a large number of others allowed it to take place and are protecting them now. But, if the worst you have on them is that they were loud, drank underage and went on the lawn in college, lets not work too hard at painting the lacrosse team like they have been running rampant terrorizing the campus for years.

[albionmoonlight]

Can anyone explain how DNA tests, blood tests, or blowing into a breathalizer for that matter, get around Constitutional protection against self-incrimination?

Nothing really to do with what happened in this particular case, but I would have thought being forced to submit to a medical procedure to be an obvious example of being compelled to give evidence against yourself.

:confused:

With the ubiquitous caveat that the issue can get more complicated than this, the short answer is that the 5th Amendment prevents the government from compelling you to present "testimonial" evidence against yourself. And, whatever testimonial evidence is, it is not a blood/breathalizer test.

http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/348/

[spcd]

With the ubiquitous caveat that the issue can get more complicated than this, the short answer is that the 5th Amendment prevents the government from compelling you to present "testimonial" evidence against yourself. And, whatever testimonial evidence is, it is not a blood/breathalizer test.

http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/348/

Thanks for the link and explanation. I found a fuller version here http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=384&invol=757

Looking through, IMHO they jumped through a hoop to find it constitutional, and I suppose preventing drunk driving was a compelling reason to do so. But, they couldn't have forseen that eventually so much evidence could be gathered from compelled physical evidence. I'm surprised the ACLU hasn't tried to challenge it, as the "spirit" of the 5th appears to me at least, to be drafted to protect against this type of evidence, as there's no way they could have forseen future evidence gathering technique.

One more question, are fingerprints compellable too? Were they before this ruling or after?

[GrantDawg]

Thanks for the link and explanation. I found a fuller version here http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=384&invol=757

Looking through, IMHO they jumped through a hoop to find it constitutional, and I suppose preventing drunk driving was a compelling reason to do so. But, they couldn't have forseen that eventually so much evidence could be gathered from compelled physical evidence. I'm surprised the ACLU hasn't tried to challenge it, as the "spirit" of the 5th appears to me at least, to be drafted to protect against this type of evidence, as there's no way they could have forseen future evidence gathering technique.

One more question, are fingerprints compellable too? Were they before this ruling or after?


I don't see where your getting "jumped through hoops." It was a unanimous decision that "testimonial" means communicative, and that blood is physical evidence. Pretty straight-forward to me.

[albionmoonlight]

Thanks for the link and explanation. I found a fuller version here http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=384&invol=757

Looking through, IMHO they jumped through a hoop to find it constitutional, and I suppose preventing drunk driving was a compelling reason to do so. But, they couldn't have forseen that eventually so much evidence could be gathered from compelled physical evidence. I'm surprised the ACLU hasn't tried to challenge it, as the "spirit" of the 5th appears to me at least, to be drafted to protect against this type of evidence, as there's no way they could have forseen future evidence gathering technique.

One more question, are fingerprints compellable too? Were they before this ruling or after?

I'm not sure about fingerprints, but I don't see why they wouldn't fall into the blood/breath category.

While I understand your concerns about the limits of the 5th Amendment, I think that you would have a lot of other problems if that decision had come out the other way. Almost every type of evidence--short of a confession--is physical evidence in some way. What if eyewitnesses saw a guy rob a bank who was wearing a blue shirt and a red ski mask. And then the cops found you a block away taking off a red ski mask and a blue shirt. Should the fact that you were taking those items off be used against you at trial? What about the fact that you "looked like" the perpetrator according to the eyewitness? Or the fact that drug residue was found in your clothes? There is a lot of physical evidence that would have to be supressed if we did not limit the 5th Amendment to testimonial evidence.

Where I (and others) think that some of your concerns may be valid is in the arena of the 4th amendment--which protects you against unreasonable searches and seizures. The Supreme Court has indicated that a search is unreasonable if it violates a "reasonable expectation of privacy." So if you are smoking a joint on a public street--the cops can bust you because you had no reasonable expectation of privacy. If you are doing it in your bedroom, they need a reason to go in because you have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your bedroom.

Seems simple enough, but there was a case where the court held that it was unreasonable for the cops to search for grow lights inside of a house by scanning the house with an infrared thermal imager. The court noted at the end however what it's holding was--namely that "Where, as here, the Government uses a device that is not in general public use, to explore details of the home that would previously have been unknowable without physical intrusion, the surveillance is a "search" and is presumptively unreasonable without a warrant."(emphasis added)

You can see where I am going with this. Technology evolves and gets cheaper and more available over time. What is your reasonable expectation of privacy 20 years from now when cell phones come with thermal imagers standard? The problem with the "reasonable person" standard is that, every day, we grow more and more accustomed to technology invading our privacy. Eventually, some argue, it will be hard to see any limits on the government's power to search--as long as there is an evolving market for better and better snooping-type technology.

http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/1304/

[spcd]

I'm not sure about fingerprints, but I don't see why they wouldn't fall into the blood/breath category.
I would imagine so, just wondering if they could be compelled before this case, or after. It would surprise me if they were compellable, but weren't mentioned in the case as they would have been an existing parallel for the breath test.

While I understand your concerns about the limits of the 5th Amendment, I think that you would have a lot of other problems if that decision had come out the other way. Almost every type of evidence--short of a confession--is physical evidence in some way.
True, but the difference is that blood/breath/dna is part of a person, not their belongings or possessions. Essentially, a person's body is being treated in a similar fashion to his posessions, despite the Constitution explicitly requiring due process for the latter to be used, unless "The right of the people to be secure in their persons" was remarkable medical foresight, and not meaning property :)

I think I can also distinguish between a person, and objects stored within the person. For example, swallowed drug packages, or objects inserted into cavaties. But I do have a hard time reconciling the 5th with medical procedures taking fluid.


What if eyewitnesses saw a guy rob a bank who was wearing a blue shirt and a red ski mask. And then the cops found you a block away taking off a red ski mask and a blue shirt. Should the fact that you were taking those items off be used against you at trial?
I don't think that's a valid comparison, what you describe could be introduced by the testimony those watching the suspect, similarly, discarded clothing is evidence found, not taken medically.

Interesting, from the Schrember case, they mention Holt, where you can be compelled to wear something. I would have thought that this too violated the spirit of the 5th, if not the wording.

What about the fact that you "looked like" the perpetrator according to the eyewitness? Or the fact that drug residue was found in your clothes? There is a lot of physical evidence that would have to be supressed if we did not limit the 5th Amendment to testimonial evidence.
Again, an eyewitness is not self incrimination, it's from a witness. For the clothes see above. I can see a more pertinent comparison to a medical procedure: being compelled to take part in a lineup.

Where I (and others) think that some of your concerns may be valid is in the arena of the 4th amendment--which protects you against unreasonable searches and seizures. The Supreme Court has indicated that a search is unreasonable if it violates a "reasonable expectation of privacy."

The problem IMHO, is that privacy has been a fluctuating expectation. As the grow lights example illustrates. There's also the problem that a significant number of justices take the position that privacy was never a constitutional protection, and would go as far as possible to limit privacy, especially as technology sparks new issues before the courts. Essentially, if I was on trial, I'd rather be appealing a violation against the 5th than the 4th, particularly in today's SC.

I understand that there are concerns and valid reasoning behind it, but suppose technology eventually leads to the downloading of a person's memory. As it's not speech, then a person could be compelled to submit to the procedure. At this point, the 5th would be rendered completely worthless, and I can't imagine that was ever the intention of the ammendment.

[kcchief19]

Am I the only one highly disturbed by this quote from the Durham County DA?


"If it's not the way it's been reported, then why are they so unwilling to tell us what, in their words, did take place that night?" Nifong told Smith on Thursday. "And one would wonder why one needs an attorney if one was not charged and had not doing anything wrong."
Wow. He would appear to be suggesting that having getting representation from an attorney and having an attorney present during questioning by the police is some type of admission of guilt.

This to me seems to be a horrible breach of legal ethics. I can certainly understand a prosecutor having a red flag go up in his or her mind when a suspect stonewalls them, but to publicly state this players must have done something wrong because they contacted an attorney before questioning by the police just seems horribly wrong. Is his message to the publicly that if you're not guilty you don't need an attorney during questioning? Supreme Court rulings and common sense would seem to suggest otherwise.

What do the FOFC attorneys make of that comment? Am I blowing this out of proportion, or does this seem like a horribly unethical comment for a prosecutor to make publicly?

[Mustang]

Glad you posted that kc. That comment struck me as unusually odd to make. If I was accussed of anything at all where the potential for jail time existed, you can be damn sure that I would be getting a lawyer.

[stevew]

Okay, I saw this comment earlier & now I've seen the wire service article talking about the same aspect ... but now I'm confused by something in that story, so I'll throw it in here.

Here's a link to the full story
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/sports/stories/0330sptduke.html

Now here's the quote that I don't exactly get
The words could be much worse among North Carolina Central students right now. Alexcia Harris, a junior at Central who was asked about that Wednesday afternoon, wasn't particularly harsh, but couldn't help but believe there was a double standard at work.

"If it happened on our campus, she wouldn't get justice," said Harris, a criminal justice major. "If it happens at an ACC [Atlantic Coast Conference] school, she'll get justice. There have been a number of things that happened here. A girl got robbed around here the other day at gunpoint. They want to make excuses. They want to know why she was out late."

Okay, the article talked about how historically black NC-Central, just several miles from the Duke campus was reacting. I get that part.
And the article talked about how this was a working class black victim claiming she was attacked by rich white guys. I get that part.

But, for the life of me, it sounds like Alexcia Harris is saying that the alleged victim will get treated better because the attackers are "from an ACC school" (presumably she means a rich white school).

If the racial element is a big part of the story, doesn't it stand more to reason that she would get treated worse by authorities if the attackers were white instead of getting a more thorough investigation because the alleged attackers are white? Basically, I read her as trying to claim that, if the crime were black-on-black it would be ignored but since it's allegedly white-on-black then it's going to be investigated ... which might make sense right up until you realize that the people going to jail are going to be white & that ain't exactly the model of racism I usually see being decried.

I can't tell if the quote is out of context & that's what's making it sound kinda screwy or if the interviewee just got tongue-tied or if she's just talked herself into a circle and really didn't know what the hell she was trying to say.

Anybody want to take a crack at making sense of it?


Okay, I'll try. I think its the typical "people get murdered in our neighborhood, and the cops take 5 hours to show up" Versus "People get their house toilet papered in that neighborhood and 6 cop cars show up." There is a pretty strong belief among people I've known that the cops only care about crime in certain areas. The victim in this case may receive more "justice" because the people that live in the affluent area will be pissed if the cops don't find the guilty parties in this act, because there shouldn't be violent crime in our affluent area. It isn't so much about the victim, its about finding the "Bad people" who did the crime.

I don't personally subscribe to the above theory, but I've heard it before, and i think that is what she is saying. Doesnt really make sense.

[albionmoonlight]

Am I the only one highly disturbed by this quote from the Durham County DA?


Wow. He would appear to be suggesting that having getting representation from an attorney and having an attorney present during questioning by the police is some type of admission of guilt.

This to me seems to be a horrible breach of legal ethics. I can certainly understand a prosecutor having a red flag go up in his or her mind when a suspect stonewalls them, but to publicly state this players must have done something wrong because they contacted an attorney before questioning by the police just seems horribly wrong. Is his message to the publicly that if you're not guilty you don't need an attorney during questioning? Supreme Court rulings and common sense would seem to suggest otherwise.

What do the FOFC attorneys make of that comment? Am I blowing this out of proportion, or does this seem like a horribly unethical comment for a prosecutor to make publicly?
Certainly, the government won't be able to make any sort of an argument like this to the jury--or even a hint of an argument like this.

And it is . . . bad form to announce it in public. I don't know if I would go as far as to say that it is unethical, but it is certainly unprofessional.

I think that the DA here is pissed because the kids had the sense to lawyer up before he could get a quick and cheap confession (or even a sense of what happened) from them. And they didn't just lawyer up with a public defender. I am sure that they got the best lawyer that their mommie and daddy could buy (and, seeing as they go to Duke, that would be a pretty expensive lawyer).

Duke aside, Durham is a rough town. The DA is probably spends 95% of his time dealing with drug and murder suspects. So he isn't used to suspects who have the sense to lawyer up--or who can afford a good lawyer when they do. And he isn't used to dealing with people about whom you shouldn't talk bad in the press. (No one would notice what he said about the suspects in yet another drug bust). I don't know the guy, and I may be off base with this--but I believe that the DA just isn't used to something like this--a high profile violent crime with a black victim and rich white suspects who all have a really good lawyer. It will be a challenge to prosecute this with success and to play the PR game properly. I don't envy him his task.

FWIW, if I were those kids I would have lawyered up, too. Even if I was an uninvolved member of the team who just happened to be at the party and see some stuff. You really can't be too careful. Plus, I am scared of cops and jail and all that. I always get a kick out of Law & Order when the cops are interviewing potential suspects and the suspects calmly go about their business while tossing wisecracks back at the officers--generally ending the exchange with something like, "Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm late for a lunch appointment." If the police ever indicate to me that they suspect me of a murder, I will 1.) call a lawyer and 2.) piss myself--though not necessarily in that order.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Am I the only one highly disturbed by this quote from the Durham County DA?

Maybe there's a simple explanation:
He attended the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
(Sorry, I saw that and couldn't resist)

More likely, he's a little over his head. Turns out he's a recent (2005) appointee to the job, elevated after his former boss accepted a judgeship. Now he's in the middle of what looks like might be a tough campaign in a race that includes an ADA who is known for handling high profile cases.

[albionmoonlight]

dola--

This is as good a time as any to quickly explain what "aiding and abetting" is. It is not a separate crime. If you assist someone in the commission of a crime, then you can be found guilty of the underlying crime and punished as if you were the principal. It is a yes/no analysis. Either you helped the person commit the crime, or you didn't. The degree of your involvement does not matter.

So if Joe asks me to lend him my car so he can rob the liquor store, and I do and he does--I can be found guilty of aiding and abetting the robbery. And if Joe asks me to drive him there and to act as a lookout and to drive him away--I can be found guilty of aiding and abetting the robbery. I am not "more guilty" in the second hypothetical than in the first.

Finally, your assistance must be with the intent to help the person commit the crime. If Joe asks to borrow my car to drive to the store, and--unknown to me--he robs the store, then I am not guilty of aiding and abetting. Pretty common sense stuff.

For purposes of this case, it may be relevant that, in most cases, encouragement has been found to be enough to allow aiding and abetting. So if, for example, a guy is raping a woman at a party, and all of his friends are standing around him cheering him on and encouraging him . . .that can be enough to get you to aiding and abetting.

It may not come up in this case. But it may. And I think that most people are suprised when they learn just how little you need to do to be punished the same as a principal in a crime. The lesson, as always, don't help people commit crimes.

[GrantDawg]

Certainly, the government won't be able to make any sort of an argument like this to the jury--or even a hint of an argument like this.

And it is . . . bad form to announce it in public. I don't know if I would go as far as to say that it is unethical, but it is certainly unprofessional.

I think that the DA here is pissed because the kids had the sense to lawyer up before he could get a quick and cheap confession (or even a sense of what happened) from them. And they didn't just lawyer up with a public defender. I am sure that they got the best lawyer that their mommie and daddy could buy (and, seeing as they go to Duke, that would be a pretty expensive lawyer).

Duke aside, Durham is a rough town. The DA is probably spends 95% of his time dealing with drug and murder suspects. So he isn't used to suspects who have the sense to lawyer up--or who can afford a good lawyer when they do. And he isn't used to dealing with people about whom you shouldn't talk bad in the press. (No one would notice what he said about the suspects in yet another drug bust). I don't know the guy, and I may be off base with this--but I believe that the DA just isn't used to something like this--a high profile violent crime with a black victim and rich white suspects who all have a really good lawyer. It will be a challenge to prosecute this with success and to play the PR game properly. I don't envy him his task.

FWIW, if I were those kids I would have lawyered up, too. Even if I was an uninvolved member of the team who just happened to be at the party and see some stuff. You really can't be too careful. Plus, I am scared of cops and jail and all that. I always get a kick out of Law & Order when the cops are interviewing potential suspects and the suspects calmly go about their business while tossing wisecracks back at the officers--generally ending the exchange with something like, "Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm late for a lunch appointment." If the police ever indicate to me that they suspect me of a murder, I will 1.) call a lawyer and 2.) piss myself--though not necessarily in that order.

Right on with this. Of course, this isn't the first case where the police used the hiring of a lawyer as "proof of guilt" in the court of public opinion (the Ramsey case being the most famous).

[Wolfpack]

I've been reading some of the boards back home and the press is starting to pick up on some discrepancies at least related to the 911 call about slurs being tossed at passers-by. Apparently, the call was made and then some minutes later the cops showed up (there was apparently one in the vicinity) and did not find any caller in the area. They checked out the house in question and found it quiet with no one responding inside. There were indications of a party on visual inspection and a canvasing of near neighbors confirmed it. What's it mean? Directly to the case itself, probably not much, but speculation is now forming that the 911 call was bogused by the victim's friend to start the ball rolling.

Here's the Durham Herald-Sun on the call (http://www.heraldsun.com/tools/printfriendly.cfm?StoryID=718588).

More critical is the fact that police are beginning to question timelines. The case isn't unravelling yet, but there are some loose strands to be dealt with.

Durham H-S on timelines and possible problems with it (http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-719002.html).

[kcchief19]

Certainly, the government won't be able to make any sort of an argument like this to the jury--or even a hint of an argument like this.

And it is . . . bad form to announce it in public. I don't know if I would go as far as to say that it is unethical, but it is certainly unprofessional.

I think that the DA here is pissed because the kids had the sense to lawyer up before he could get a quick and cheap confession (or even a sense of what happened) from them. And they didn't just lawyer up with a public defender. I am sure that they got the best lawyer that their mommie and daddy could buy (and, seeing as they go to Duke, that would be a pretty expensive lawyer).

Duke aside, Durham is a rough town. The DA is probably spends 95% of his time dealing with drug and murder suspects. So he isn't used to suspects who have the sense to lawyer up--or who can afford a good lawyer when they do. And he isn't used to dealing with people about whom you shouldn't talk bad in the press. (No one would notice what he said about the suspects in yet another drug bust). I don't know the guy, and I may be off base with this--but I believe that the DA just isn't used to something like this--a high profile violent crime with a black victim and rich white suspects who all have a really good lawyer. It will be a challenge to prosecute this with success and to play the PR game properly. I don't envy him his task.

FWIW, if I were those kids I would have lawyered up, too. Even if I was an uninvolved member of the team who just happened to be at the party and see some stuff. You really can't be too careful. Plus, I am scared of cops and jail and all that. I always get a kick out of Law & Order when the cops are interviewing potential suspects and the suspects calmly go about their business while tossing wisecracks back at the officers--generally ending the exchange with something like, "Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm late for a lunch appointment." If the police ever indicate to me that they suspect me of a murder, I will 1.) call a lawyer and 2.) piss myself--though not necessarily in that order.
This pretty much summed up my thoughts on further reflection. I can imagine a DA being frustrated, particularly if he thinks he has a case, at suspects lawyering up, but to suggest that people should forfeit their constitutional rights if they aren't guilty just smacked me up irresposibility at worse and downright unethical behavior at worst.

If I had done nothing wrong and was being question by the police in a rape case, you can darn well bet I'd want a lawyer too -- in today's day and age, it seems like you can't be too careful in what you say. Clearly the DA in this case thinks some or all of these kids are guilty -- if he can't make a rape charge stick, who is to say he won't try to make a making false statements charge stick if your recollection changes or you remember/forget something?

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm perplexed by the mushroom cloud this case has generated -- national media reports make it sound like half the town is ready to beat these guys, yet other media reports suggest that this could be much ado about nothing. It's dragged race and class warfare into the spotlight more than any case we've seen in quite some time.

[Wolfpack]

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm perplexed by the mushroom cloud this case has generated -- national media reports make it sound like half the town is ready to beat these guys, yet other media reports suggest that this could be much ado about nothing. It's dragged race and class warfare into the spotlight more than any case we've seen in quite some time.

One thing that isn't mentioned as prominently as a source of contention is maybe a certain degree of regionalism as well. Duke, in addition to being largely wealthy and largely white, is also largely a Northern student body with kids from New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, etc. Because of this, kids come down, get their education, and go home. Duke is very transient and very apart from the community in some sense because of this. There will be some that come and stay, but if many more go home, there probably is a lower sense of connection between the university and the surrounding area because not enough are planting roots, developing ties with the community, etc. Add to that the perception that Duke likes to regard itself as an Ivy League equal in a town where a sizeable percentage of the population didn't even finish high school and the gulf widens even more.

[miami_fan]

DURHAM, N.C. -- Duke University's lacrosse coach resigned Wednesday and the school canceled the rest of the season amid a burgeoning scandal involving allegations that three players on the highly ranked team raped an exotic dancer at an off-campus party.

Mike Pressler spent 16 seasons at Duke and won three Atlantic Coast Conference championships. Last year, his team appeared in the national championship game.

"Coach Pressler offered me his resignation earlier this afternoon, and I accepted it," said Duke athletic director Joe Alleva. "I believe this is in the best interests of the program, the department of athletics and the university."

The rape allegations have roiled the campus and the city, raised racial tensions and heightened the long-standing antagonism between the privileged students at the elite university and the poorer people of Durham.

The dancer is black and said her attackers were white. Investigators and witnesses have said the lacrosse players taunted her with racial slurs and insults.

Students and townspeople have marched on campus and off in recent days, angry over the school's handling of the allegations. Investigators have said the athletes are sticking together and keeping silent. No one has been charged.

The lacrosse team's co-captains have denied that anyone was sexually assaulted at the party, as have attorneys for the players.

Earlier Wednesday, authorities unsealed documents stating that hours after the alleged rape, a player apparently sent an e-mail saying he wanted to invite more dancers to his dorm room, kill them and skin them. It was not clear whether the message was serious or a joke.

"The court released today a previously sealed warrant, whose contents are sickening and repulsive," Duke president Richard Brodhead said in announcing the cancellation of the rest of the season. Last week, Brodhead suspended the team from play.

The dancer, a student at a nearby university, has told police that she was hired to perform at a party at a house just off campus last month and was raped and choked by three men in a bathroom. Investigators are awaiting the results of DNA tests on 46 of the 47 team members. The team's lone black member did not have to provide a sample.

District Attorney Mike Nifong has said that he is "pretty confident that a rape occurred" but that he does not expect to file charges until next week.

Duke, considered a national title contender before the lacrosse season began, had a 6-2 record with seven regular-season games remaining before the scandal broke.

The e-mail, according to an application for a search warrant of the player's dorm room, was sent from the player's Duke e-mail account just before 2 a.m. on March 14. Police said investigators received a copy from a confidential source, though they later won a court order seeking access to the account.

In the e-mail, addressed "To whom it may concern," the player says he has "decided to have some dancers over" to his dorm room, "however there will be no nudity."

"I plan on killing the bitches as soon as they walk in and proceding to cut their skin off," the author of the e-mail says, adding in vulgar terms that he would find the act sexually satisfying. The e-mail was signed with what police said is the player's jersey number.

Investigators did not immediately return calls or e-mails seeking comment on whether the e-mail was serious. But a lawyer for the player who purportedly wrote it said the content suggests his client is innocent.

"While the language of the e-mail is vile, the e-mail itself is perfectly consistent with the boys' unequivocal assertion that no sexual assault took place that evening," said attorney Robert Ekstrand. The e-mail "demonstrates that its writer is completely unaware that any act or event remotely similar to what has been alleged ever occurred."

The warrant for the player's room was made public on Wednesday. In it, police provide a detailed timeline of the alleged attack and some additional details of their investigation. The warrant also adds conspiracy to commit murder as one of the crimes police are investigating.

According to the warrant, the alleged victim told police she believes the players used false names and falsely claimed to be members of Duke's baseball and track teams.

A team captain and resident of the house where the party took place told police he used an alias when hiring the dancers at the party, the warrant said.

[GrantDawg]

Read this page of the latest search-warrant release. It lists the physical evidence involved. It looks like there is plenty of evidence that the rape occurred. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke4.html

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Despicable if it happened. Definitely believable, but I still want to hear more, especially the results of the DNA tests of the players. That should bring things into focus somewhat. If there's a match, I am sure the claim of consensual sex will come up. And then there we go again. Kobe anyone?

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Not sure if anyone heard about this...

Limbaugh called alleged Duke rape victim a "ho"

Audio Here
http://mediamatters.org/items/200604030004



Summary: On his national syndicated radio program, Rush Limbaugh referred to the alleged victim of a rape by members of the Duke University lacrosse team as a "ho[]."

During the March 31 broadcast of his national syndicated radio program, Rush Limbaugh referred to the alleged victim of a rape by members of the Duke University lacrosse team as a "ho[]." During an on-air discussion with a caller, Limbaugh said that former Democratic presidential candidate Al Sharpton was "trying to figure out how he can get involved in the deal down there at Duke where the lacrosse team ... supposedly, you know, raped some, uh, hos." Limbaugh's made the comment about a recent incident in Durham, North Carolina, in which an exotic dancer was allegedly raped by three members of the Duke lacrosse team. The incident has invoked further controversy because the victim, an African-American, has alleged that her attackers used racial epithets. Prompted by another caller to apologize for his words, Limbaugh said that he had made the statement because he was "running on fumes today," and called it a "terrible slip of the tongue." But he then added that there are "some inconsistencies" in the case and rephrased his apology, telling the second caller, "I regret that you heard me say it."

[BYU 14]

Yeah, running on fumes or Pain Killers

Limbaugh is a fucking idiot and I am sick of him getting free passes for his "slips of the Tongue" all the time. Real nice calling an alleged rape victim (the evidence seems strong that it was indeed a rape) a Ho.

[Klinglerware]

Oh the irony--Limbaugh defending a group of guys who got into Duke via admissions preferences...

[st.cronin]

That's a racial epithet?

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Who said it was? Its highly insensitive.

[st.cronin]

Who said it was? Its highly insensitive.

No kidding. That paragraph makes me think I'm supposed to recognize that as a racial slur, though. Maybe I'm reading too deeply?

[Galaxy]

Despicable if it happened. Definitely believable, but I still want to hear more, especially the results of the DNA tests of the players. That should bring things into focus somewhat. If there's a match, I am sure the claim of consensual sex will come up. And then there we go again. Kobe anyone?
I don't think you can compare Kobe to these guys.

[st.cronin]

I don't think you can compare Kobe to these guys.

Why not?

[Groundhog]

Why not?

Look at other evidence for christ's sake. Finger nails left behind, her bag was still on the scene, etc. etc.

[Groundhog]

Look at other evidence for christ's sake. Finger nails left behind, her bag was still on the scene, etc. etc.

dola, not to mention other injuries both vaginally and anally described by doctors as being consistent with those of a rape victim.

[st.cronin]

So you're saying this is worse than the Kobe situation? I can certainly see how it might be. I'm keeping an open mind, though.

[Schmidty]

I can't believe that I ever respected that fucking idiot (like 7-8 years ago).

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

What idiot?

[Schmidty]

So you're saying this is worse than the Kobe situation? I can certainly see how it might be. I'm keeping an open mind, though.

Dude, I like you so much, but the fact that you're defending anything about this crap makes me disappointed.

The fact that Rush even said the word 'ho' regarding the woman before anything is brought before the court. It's just insensitive to her and her family. If it's determined eventually in court that she was lying, that's fine, but until then, it's unbelievably rude at best, and racist hatred at worst.

Either way, it stinks.

[Groundhog]

So you're saying this is worse than the Kobe situation? I can certainly see how it might be. I'm keeping an open mind, though.

Most definately. Kobe may well have raped that girl, but the fact that there is no definate evidence that says so makes it much more doubtful in my mind. The fact that Kobe is a superstar celebrity also just makes it that much harder to believe, as EVERYONE knows who he is and knows how much they stand to gain from an allegation.

The amount of physical evidence and the fact that these were just a bunch of college athletes makes it hard to give these guys the benefit of the doubt. I'd be incredibly surprised if nothing went down that night.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I don't think you can compare Kobe to these guys.

My point was that the case will eventually come around to a defense of consensual sex, just like the Kobe situation. I'm not saying the facts are the same.

But it's still way too early to know enough about the case to form much of an opinion at all -- other than it should be thoroughly investigated.

[st.cronin]

Dude, I like you so much, but the fact that you're defending anything about this crap makes me disappointed.

The fact that Rush even said the word 'ho' regarding the woman before anything is brought before the court. It's just insensitive to her and her family. If it's determined eventually in court that she was lying, that's fine, but until then, it's unbelievably rude at best, and racist hatred at worst.

Either way, it stinks.

Since when is 'ho' a racist word? That was a word I heard in high school, and I don't remember that it had any racial connotations. I went to a high school that was 99.99% white.

Or is it racist to say something bad about somebody black ... I don't get where this is going.

[Galaxy]

Most definately. Kobe may well have raped that girl, but the fact that there is no definate evidence that says so makes it much more doubtful in my mind. The fact that Kobe is a superstar celebrity also just makes it that much harder to believe, as EVERYONE knows who he is and knows how much they stand to gain from an allegation.

The amount of physical evidence and the fact that these were just a bunch of college athletes makes it hard to give these guys the benefit of the doubt. I'd be incredibly surprised if nothing went down that night.

Agree...Plus in that case, wasn't the alleged victim pretty shaky with her character and story?

[Schmidty]

Since when is 'ho' a racist word? That was a word I heard in high school, and I don't remember that it had any racial connotations..

The first part of my post was that the word 'ho' was extremely insensitive to a person (and that person's family) who very well may have been raped by multiple men/boys. My "racist" part of the post has to do with Rush's past comments regarding minorities unless they fit in with his personal political views.

Trust me, I have never been afraid to point out that something is wrong, even if it has to do with black people. I also think there is a lot of reverse racism going around; however, I also am not so set in my ways, or naive, to realize that there are a ton of racist assholes in the "establishment".

[st.cronin]

The first part of my post was that the word 'ho' was extremely insensitive to a person (and that person's family) who very well may have been raped by multiple men/boys. My "racist" part of the post has to do with Rush's past comments regarding minorities unless they fit in with his personal political views.

I'm not at all condoning calling a rape victim (even if it's merely alleged) a 'ho.' And I guess in this story it's going to be impossible to keep 'racism' allegations out of any aspect. It just struck me as odd, as I'd never thought of 'ho' as being in any respect racist, even given who said it.

[Groundhog]

Agree...Plus in that case, wasn't the alleged victim pretty shaky with her character and story?

IIRC her story changed several times. Plus she also didn't report it for a few days, during which she'd had sex with another man (her boyfriend I think). I remember reading that for a woman to have sex with another man after rape is not terribly uncommon and can be brought on by the trauma, but it also conveniently erases useful DNA evidence, and without any other evidence of the rape occuring it makes her story look just that little bit suspect - suspect enough, at least, to cause doubt.

[BishopMVP]

The fact that Kobe is a superstar celebrity also just makes it that much harder to believe, as EVERYONE knows who he is and knows how much they stand to gain from an allegation.

The amount of physical evidence and the fact that these were just a bunch of college athletes makes it hard to give these guys the benefit of the doubt. I'd be incredibly surprised if nothing went down that night.I'd be surprised too, but the links posted in post #51 are enough to add doubt in my mind at this point and let the legal system take its course. Everything you said about different groups having something to gain from this applies to this more than you know - mixed race, mixed income Southern townies vs. college kids predominantly rich, white and from Long Island/NJ. There's also the anti-athlete stereotypes and backlash that is present on many campuses.

The fact that the big new revelation is an e-mail that, while obviously in poor taste, is clearly to my mind a joke, leading to charges of conspiracy to commit murder makes me think there's a bit of a witchhunt or a shoddy DA here.

Any way this case plays out, people making their minds up now are probably gonna look stupid in the end.

[GrantDawg]

I'd be surprised too, but the links posted in post #51 are enough to add doubt in my mind at this point and let the legal system take its course. Everything you said about different groups having something to gain from this applies to this more than you know - mixed race, mixed income Southern townies vs. college kids predominantly rich, white and from Long Island/NJ. There's also the anti-athlete stereotypes and backlash that is present on many campuses.

You mean the two articles that were basically written by one of the defense attorneys? Nothing in them seemed like a very concrete defense. When looking at the physical evidence already taken, this looks more of a case of who did it rather than if.

The fact that the big new revelation is an e-mail that, while obviously in poor taste, is clearly to my mind a joke, leading to charges of conspiracy to commit murder makes me think there's a bit of a witchhunt or a shoddy DA here.

Really? I see the email as a sign of the attitude of these players. They have a contempt for these women, and they do not take an attack of this nature very seriously. It really shows a perfect environment for an attack like this to have occured.

[Samdari]

charges of conspiracy to commit murder makes me think there's a bit of a witchhunt or a shoddy DA here.

I think using barely supportable charges which are more serious than what someone actually did shows evidence of neither, they are simply used to intimidate the accused.

[wade moore]

I think using barely supportable charges which are more serious than what someone actually did shows evidence of neither, they are simply used to intimidate the accused.

DING DING DING!

[Samdari]

Really? I see the email as a sign of the attitude of these players. They have a contempt for these women, and they do not take an attack of this nature very seriously. It really shows a perfect environment for an attack like this to have occured.

I agree. This email is evidence that the player who sent it considers these women to be less than human, whether due to their race or choice of employment, or simply the fact that they are not Duke Lacrosse Players.

[Butter]

The lacrosse players certainly have a right not to speak to the authorities about this situation. But as far as I'm concerned, Duke also has a right to either throw them out of school, or take away their scholarships (partial or whatever some of them get).

I am not saying they're all guilty... but the school should demand cooperation from their students in any criminal investigation, especially one involving such cruel acts.

[albionmoonlight]

I am not saying they're all guilty... but the school should demand cooperation from their students in any criminal investigation, especially one involving such cruel acts.As a private school, Duke (I am pretty sure) has that right. And I think that I might agree with you here that they should.

A more interesting question would arise if they went to UNC. I am not sure whether the state (acting as UNC) can punish you for exercising your right against self-incrimination in at that way (assuming that that is the basis on which a student decides not to confess).

[Anthony]

one of my friends who's an attorney told us that if we ever got arrested for something or taken in for questioning not to say anything at all until our attorney gets there. he said he's heard so many stories of people fucking themselves just cuz they opened their mouth. he said once you're in the room and they're asking you questions you just stare at the table in silence till your lawyer gets there.

[albionmoonlight]

one of my friends who's an attorney told us that if we ever got arrested for something or taken in for questioning not to say anything at all until our attorney gets there. he said he's heard so many stories of people fucking themselves just cuz they opened their mouth. he said once you're in the room and they're asking you questions you just stare at the table in silence till your lawyer gets there.Your friend gives good advice. The only thing that I would add is that you should tell them that you want an attorney. Declaring that you want an attorney does cloak you with some (minimal) extra protections. But you should say nothing else.

[QuikSand]

Any way this case plays out, people making their minds up now are probably gonna look stupid in the end.

I ususally find that the people arguing this perspective have already made up their minds themselves. Quickly accepting the absurd articles written above, immediately dismissing the email as no big deal, calling into question the motivations of the community and alleged victim... all consistent with someone who really wants this stuff not to be true. Draw your parallels to whatever other case you desire -- Kobe Bryant is fine, but certainly not the only one.

[Anthony]

Your friend gives good advice. The only thing that I would add is that you should tell them that you want an attorney. Declaring that you want an attorney does cloak you with some (minimal) extra protections. But you should say nothing else.

he's not a good attorney though, LOL, but it's good to hear another attorney confirmed that. we're talking about a guy who, after losing a case for one of his clients said "we got them right where we want them" LOL. then he proceeded to walk to the elevator with the man who was found guilty, gets in in the elevator with the man and as the doors close he ran out.

ohhhh man, the characters in my group.

the only good thing he's for is if any of us ever get pulled over for drunk driving. by law you're allowed to have your attorney present as the police make you take the breathalizer test. he's under orders to go back to sleep when we call him, come get us several hours later and then we take the test (long after most if not all the alcohol has left our bloodstream). none of us have had to use this yet, but organization is key.

[spcd]

The lacrosse players certainly have a right not to speak to the authorities about this situation. But as far as I'm concerned, Duke also has a right to either throw them out of school, or take away their scholarships (partial or whatever some of them get).

I am not saying they're all guilty... but the school should demand cooperation from their students in any criminal investigation, especially one involving such cruel acts.

I disagree. The Constitution, and other laws, are rights not priviledges. Students exercising those rights should not be punished doing so.

In a highly charged case such as this, you'd be reckless to ignore the advice of an attorney, and what you're claiming Duke should do is to pressure students into ignoring expert legal advice.

[wade moore]

the only good thing he's for is if any of us ever get pulled over for drunk driving. by law you're allowed to have your attorney present as the police make you take the breathalizer test. he's under orders to go back to sleep when we call him, come get us several hours later and then we take the test (long after most if not all the alcohol has left our bloodstream). none of us have had to use this yet, but organization is key.

This is absolutely disgusting imo.

[albionmoonlight]

This is absolutely disgusting imo.And not really true. You don't have to take the breathalyzer test, but if you don't, the state can suspend your license, etc.

But you don't have a right to counsel that kicks in for the breathalyzer. If/when they arrest you or put you in custody, then your right to counsel kicks in--but not before. And, by that point, you will have already refused to take the breathalyzer.

The lesson, of course, is just don't drive drunk.

[wade moore]

And not really true. You don't have to take the breathalyzer test, but if you don't, the state can suspend your license, etc.

But you don't have a right to counsel that kicks in for the breathalyzer. If/when they arrest you or put you in custody, then your right to counsel kicks in--but not before. And, by that point, you will have already refused to take the breathalyzer.

The lesson, of course, is just don't drive drunk.

Good to hear it's not true, I probably should have realized it wasn't if I had thought about that part, I was too busy thinking about how disgusting it is to make elaborate plans with your friends on how to get out of Drunk Driving charges.

[QuikSand]

This is absolutely disgusting imo.

Not to mention crappy legal advice.

[astrosfan64]

When did a stripper not become a "ho"?

[John Galt]

Nevermind.

[Butter]

what you're claiming Duke should do is to pressure students into ignoring expert legal advice.

Yes.

[Samdari]

I disagree. The Constitution, and other laws, are rights not priviledges. Students exercising those rights should not be punished doing so.

In a highly charged case such as this, you'd be reckless to ignore the advice of an attorney, and what you're claiming Duke should do is to pressure students into ignoring expert legal advice.

These students have a right to avoid self incrimination. They do not have a right to attend Duke University. The constitution only provides protection from the government, not from Duke.

The university, on the other hand, has a right to act in their own best interests, and in the interests of the student body as a whole, rather than in the interests of a few students.

Thus, Duke cannot compel anyone to talk. They CAN set talking as a requirement to continue attendance.

Besides, for 40+ members of the team, they have no 5th amendment rights. The constitution offers no protection against ratting out your buddies.

[spcd]

Yes.

Out of interest, why?

Should an employer be encouraged to coerce too?

----



These students have a right to avoid self incrimination. They do not have a right to attend Duke University. The constitution only provides protection from the government, not from Duke.

Correct, but what you propose is for private insitutions and corporations to coerce those they have leverage upon into forgoing those rights. The Constitution wasn't designed for only the independently wealthy, it would be a disgrace for Duke or any other institution to force anyone into giving up their rights.

Further, what you are suggesting is to force the school to intimately involve itself in criminal investigations, or do they throw anyone out who is accused of a crime and doesn't submit to every demand a prosecutor may make.

The university, on the other hand, has a right to act in their own best interests, and in the interests of the student body as a whole, rather than in the interests of a few students.
How is it in their interests as an institution to demonstrate bullying?


Thus, Duke cannot compel anyone to talk. They CAN set talking as a requirement to continue attendance.

They can do anything they like, the issue is whether they should act in such a manner as to encourage the abandonment of rights. What's next, throw out students who have had an abortion?

[Samdari]

Out of interest, why?

Should an employer be encouraged to coerce too?

----




Correct, but what you propose is for private insitutions and corporations to coerce those they have leverage upon into forgoing those rights. The Constitution wasn't designed for only the independently wealthy, it would be a disgrace for Duke or any other institution to force anyone into giving up their rights.

Further, what you are suggesting is to force the school to intimately involve itself in criminal investigations, or do they throw anyone out who is accused of a crime and doesn't submit to every demand a prosecutor may make.


How is it in their interests as an institution to demonstrate bullying?


They can do anything they like, the issue is whether they should act in such a manner as to encourage the abandonment of rights. What's next, throw out students who have had an abortion?

You conveniently ignore the most salient fact here.

For 43 of the students on the lacrosse team, they are not exercising their rights, but rather hindering the investigation. The students they are trying to pressure into coming forward are not the three who will eventually be accused of rape, but the 43 who were not. They have no rights to give up. They are not guaranteed the right to not rat out their buddies. They CAN be forced to do so. They may be issuing blanket statements to/about all 46, but what they really want is the 43 who weren't in the bathroom to name the 3 they saw go in there. Those 43 are being offered a choice: tell us who did it, or leave school. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And, if Duke as an institution, decides that they don't want as students the kind of people who lie to protect (accused) rapists, I have no problem with that.

Your first paragraph indicates that you completely misunderstand the constitution. Private entities are under no obligation to protect the constitutional rights of others, especially if those rights conflict with that private entity's best interests. You can be fired for saying things that first amendment rights prevent you from being prosecuted for. Young people tend to misinterpret those rights as being universal and absolute - you can say anything you want and be protected from all repercussions - whereas in reality, they are not.

As for "bullying" being in their best interests, they have sole discretion there. You might think they are conveying the wrong message, but your opinion, and mine, is irrelevant.

[Butter]

Out of interest, why?

Should an employer be encouraged to coerce too?

Are you serious? How many high-profile "employees" have been fired based on charges that may or may not have turned out to be factually accurate? Let's all pillory NBC for firing OJ, because he was found innocent!

Please. These kids fucked up... and their buddies are protecting them. It sucks all around, any way you want to look at it.

[GrantDawg]

Nevermind.


Awww...PM me what you said. I want to know.

[BishopMVP]

I think using barely supportable charges which are more serious than what someone actually did shows evidence of neither, they are simply used to intimidate the accused.Yeah, you're almost certainly right here. The statement by the prosecutor that these players would only lawyer up if they had something to hide biased me against him.
Quickly accepting the absurd articles written above, immediately dismissing the email as no big deal,And against other people I've pointed out how easily I could see this type of thing happening, and in fact how at my college situations like this absent the rape occur every weekend and I could easily see a couple of drunk meatheads escalating it past the acceptable point, and pointing out how much evidence there was. But if you want to takethe links posted in post #51 are enough to add doubt in my mind at this point and let the legal system take its course.

The fact that the big new revelation is an e-mail that, while obviously in poor taste, is clearly to my mind a joke, leading to charges of conspiracy to commit murder makes me think there's a bit of a witchhunt or a shoddy DA here.as evidence that I accepted the articles wholesale and dismissed the e-mail completely, then clearly I wasn't clear enough.There's also the anti-athlete stereotypes and backlash that is present on many campuses.was posted in response to attitudes like...and the fact that these were just a bunch of college athletes makes it hard to give these guys the benefit of the doubt. I'd be incredibly surprised if nothing went down that night.

[Wolfpack]

I can't help thinking that somehow a lot of these discussions would be different if the skin colors of victim and perpetrators were reversed. I have a hard time believing that, for example, people who are advocating that Duke has a right to force out the lacrosse players who don't talk would be quite as eager to do so if the team was one that was majority black. You know the media storm that would erupt if Duke tried to do that? I'm not picking on the person(s) advocating this, BTW. It just happens to be the most-recently discussed issue.

Again, I'm not trying to disparage anyone for their stances in this thread, but I just think that there are stances being taken because this situation is one way and not another.

I should also note that I posted those articles up in #51 as information, not necessarily advocacy. Generally, it has begun to look more like the lacrosse team is guilty of at least something as there hasn't been many disputative articles that have appeared anywhere since then. Even so, there seems to be a lot of convicting in the court of public opinion long before all the facts are final (if they could ever be made such). Then again, it wouldn't be the first time this sort of thing has happened in the court of public opinion. :)

[BishopMVP]

Please. These kids fucked up... and their buddies are protecting them.Assuming that a rape did take place and the rest were present and did nothing to top it also means they are protecting themselves here. If I was in a different part of the party and had no idea a rape was going on I'd be hesitant to volunteer information due to potential crimnal charges against myself. Especially in the beginning, before the rape allegations surfaced, admitting to underage drinking/hiring strippers alone was probably enough to get suspended/kicked off the lacrosse team, which I guarantee would be the first thing going through these kids minds if they had no idea about any rape.It sucks all around, any way you want to look at it.Agreed. As does pretty much every rape investigation.

[astrosfan64]

White or Black it doesn't matter. I question the motive of any stripper who goes to a house to "perform" without bringing a bouncer.

Any legitmate stripper brings a bouncer or two.

[stevew]

White or Black it doesn't matter. I question the motive of any stripper who goes to a house to "perform" without bringing a bouncer.

Any legitmate stripper brings a bouncer or two.

I question the lack of judgement of not bringing a bouncer for protection, but I don't think it indicates that she wanted to get fucked in the ass by total strangers.

[dawgfan]

I have no respect for Rush Limbaugh, and I don't condone what he said.

However, the devil's advocate in me feels compelled to point out that the victim in this case has admitted to working for an escort service. So, technically speaking, Rush's description was not incorrect.

[Butter]

If I was in a different part of the party and had no idea a rape was going on I'd be hesitant to volunteer information due to potential crimnal charges against myself.

Maybe in the beginning, but at this point you think there will be any criminal charges at all against an informant? I seriously doubt it.

[BishopMVP]

Maybe in the beginning, but at this point you think there will be any criminal charges at all against an informant? I seriously doubt it.If they knew a rape was occurring, they are liable for criminal charges.
If they were drinking and watching the other stripper, not paying attention to the rest of the house, why would the speculate?
Even if they saw players go into a bathroom with a stripper, but then have no idea what happened afterward, how much value is that information? The victims father has already said her daughter identified the assailants and presumably the DNA will offer irrefutable evidence of who was in there.

The only scenario I can see where someone was there and would have information beyond who went into the bathroom was if they saw a crime occurring, and presumably did nothing to stop it.

[astrosfan64]

I question the lack of judgement of not bringing a bouncer for protection, but I don't think it indicates that she wanted to get fucked in the ass by total strangers.

Agreed, unless they were really hiring prostitutes. All of this is just speculation.

[spcd]

You conveniently ignore the most salient fact here.

For 43 of the students on the lacrosse team, they are not exercising their rights, but rather hindering the investigation. The students they are trying to pressure into coming forward are not the three who will eventually be accused of rape, but the 43 who were not. They have no rights to give up.


You're ignoring that they are exersising their rights, especially as culpability for aiding/abetting is wide. If the DA is convinced that these students are innocent and he needs their help, he can offer immunity and compel them to give Grand Jury testimony. Anything other than immunity means they can be prosecuted for a crime, regardless of whether or not you think they can, and that's obviously a risk they don't believe to be worth taking.

They are not guaranteed the right to not rat out their buddies. They CAN be forced to do so.

Only if there is no chance of them being implicated in the crime. If that was the case (and you seem convinced it is) then why haven't they already been forced to cooperate as witnesses?


And, if Duke as an institution, decides that they don't want as students the kind of people who lie to protect (accused) rapists, I have no problem with that.

What if Duke decides as an institution they don't want people with blue eyes, or who hold certain religious beliefs, will you be fine with them throwing them out too?


Your first paragraph indicates that you completely misunderstand the constitution. Private entities are under no obligation to protect the constitutional rights of others, especially if those rights conflict with that private entity's best interests.

Not at all, it does appear that you misunderstand what I have posted. Nowhere have I claimed that Duke couldn't do what you suggest, but that they should not do so, and the reasoning for my opinion. Try not to make assumptions about someone else's knowledge of the Constitution, especially when you don't understand the point being made.

You can be fired for saying things that first amendment rights prevent you from being prosecuted for. Young people tend to misinterpret those rights as being universal and absolute - you can say anything you want and be protected from all repercussions - whereas in reality, they are not.
Perhaps you've never employed anyone, otherwise you might understand how difficult it is to fire someone at a whim, or for acting in a manner which deserves to get someone fired. Unless you want to roll the dice in a lawsuit after, then an employees behaviour needs to clearly violate terms of employment.

As for "bullying" being in their best interests, they have sole discretion there. You might think they are conveying the wrong message, but your opinion, and mine, is irrelevant.
Apparently they've made the decision, one you appear to disagree with.


-----


Are you serious? How many high-profile "employees" have been fired based on charges that may or may not have turned out to be factually accurate? Let's all pillory NBC for firing OJ, because he was found innocent!

Completely different situation, these students have not been accused of a crime.

Please. These kids fucked up... and their buddies are protecting them. It sucks all around, any way you want to look at it.
I agree, but there are other ways to get the truth out of them than the threatening and very public statements by the DA. Poorly handled all round IMHO, but that shouldn't be an excuse for Duke to arbitrarily decide to interfere in a criminal investigation.

[Butter]

I agree, but there are other ways to get the truth out of them than the threatening and very public statements by the DA. Poorly handled all round IMHO, but that shouldn't be an excuse for Duke to arbitrarily decide to interfere in a criminal investigation.

How would this be arbitrary?

[kcchief19]

You conveniently ignore the most salient fact here.

For 43 of the students on the lacrosse team, they are not exercising their rights, but rather hindering the investigation. The students they are trying to pressure into coming forward are not the three who will eventually be accused of rape, but the 43 who were not. They have no rights to give up. They are not guaranteed the right to not rat out their buddies. They CAN be forced to do so. They may be issuing blanket statements to/about all 46, but what they really want is the 43 who weren't in the bathroom to name the 3 they saw go in there. Those 43 are being offered a choice: tell us who did it, or leave school. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Since you're interested in considering salient facts ...

1. You're assuming the other 43 people involved have something to offer. It's difficult to offer evidence relating to something you did not witness. You're assuming that each of this individuals have something to testify to.

2. We're not talking about "ratting out" friends to the school. The question you're asking is whether being question by police without an attorney present should be a condition for staying in school. You are arguing that individuals should be forced to sacrifice consitutional rights as a condition of staying in school at Duke. That's borderline legal at best -- and I think a lot worse.

I've heard a lot of things about this case that troubles me, and it certainly sounds like there is probably cause to believe a crime took place.

You're also assuming that even if these 43 other individuals were not involved in the crime that they have no legal jeopardy. You obviously are unaware of crimes for making false statements. One of this kids says they left the party at 1 am and three other people say they left at 2 am, do you not think for a minute this fire-breathing DA won't bring charges against them?

You rights against self-incrimination do not cover just statements about the crime in question -- it also covers statements you may make while being questioned unrelated to the crime.

[astrosfan64]

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/5479408




DURHAM, N.C. (AP) - Not content to wait for the results of DNA tests, attorneys representing members of the Duke University lacrosse team are increasingly pointing to other evidence they say will clear their clients of allegations that three players raped an exotic dancer.

Durham attorney Kerry Sutton contended Friday, for example, that numerous e-mails written in the hours after the woman said she was attacked at a house just off the Duke campus also bolster the players' claims that nothing happened that night. She declined to make those e-mails available.
Sutton, who represents team co-captain Matt Zash, said she believed the woman fabricated her story and "quickly got in over her head with the story she's telling."

Officials are awaiting the results of DNA testing on 46 of the team's 47 members. Because the woman said her attackers were white, the sole black player was not tested.

The woman, a 27-year-old student at nearby North Carolina Central University, told police she and another woman were hired to dance at a March 13 party. She said they were subjected to racial slurs, and that three men dragged her into a bathroom, raped, sodomized, beat and choked her.

"We had sufficient evidence for probable cause to obtain search warrants in this case," police spokeswoman Kammie Michael said Friday. "And we are continuing to investigate it as a sexual assault."

The incident led to days of protests on and off the Duke campus, and some of the players have moved for safety reasons. On Wednesday, officials announced that one player had been suspended for writing in an e-mail about killing and skinning strippers, a revelation that led to lacrosse coach Mike Pressler's resignation.

District Attorney Mike Nifong has said he is confident a rape occurred.

Defense attorneys have also raised suspicions about a 911 call that came in just minutes after the attack was said to have occurred from a black woman who claimed someone at the party shouted racial slurs at her and a friend.

Joe Cheshire, who represents co-captain Dave Evans, told reporters he is certain the call was made by the second dancer, whose identity has not yet surfaced publicly. The caller alternatively told a police dispatcher the pair were driving and walking past the house.

And while a third of the lacrosse team has been charged in recent years with alcohol possession and disorderly conduct, the woman making the accusations also has a criminal past.

In June 2002, police records show, she stole the taxi of a man to whom she was giving a lap dance at a Durham strip club. The records say she led a sheriff's deputy on a winding chase at speeds of up to 70 mph, and tried to run him down as he approached the cab on foot.

The woman, a divorced mother of two, pleaded guilty to misdemeanor counts of larceny, speeding to elude arrest, assault on a government official and driving while impaired. She was sentenced to three consecutive weekends in jail and two years' probation.

Durham attorney Woody Vann, who represented the woman during that incident, said she made a mistake four years ago and completed her punishment. The woman has not returned several messages left by The Associated Press at her home in the past several days.

"She is keeping a very low profile," said Vann, who is not representing the woman now but has had some contact with her in recent days.

Some have taken issue at what they perceive as attempts to smear a victim of a heinous crime.

"I'm repelled and repulsed by those trying to equate her with Tawana Brawley of decades ago," said city council member Howard Clement III, referring to the 15-year-old black girl whose 1987 claims of being kidnapped and raped by police proved to be false. "That's awful. And, that just compounds the evil of this whole process."



Credible witness -- some kind of victim.

[GrantDawg]

Credible witness -- some kind of victim.


You're right. People who do bad things deserve to be beaten and anally raped.

[astrosfan64]

"rushed to judgement" -- god I miss you Johnny Cockren.

[astrosfan64]

You're right. People who do bad things deserve to be beaten and anally raped.

You just really dislike Duke don't you? I personally can't stand Duke, but I don't think these guys lives should be ruined "UNTILL" there is proof against them and they have their day in court.

If these guys are found innocent, I hope they sue Duke, sue the Chick, sue the town council.

[GrantDawg]

You just really dislike Duke don't you? I personally can't stand Duke, but I don't think these guys lives should be ruined "UNTILL" there is proof against them and they have their day in court.


I have no opinion of Duke at all, and keep an open mind on these things (read the Kobe threads). I don't "rush to judgment" on the accused OR the accuser. I look at the evidence (you know, the actual evidence). Like the fact the medical examiner confirms both the physical and mental signs of abuse and rape (both virginal and anal). Also, the physical evidence that was left behind in the crime scene that collaborates her testimony. That makes it very, very unlikely this is a misunderstanding.

[astrosfan64]

I have no opinion of Duke at all, and keep an open mind on these things (read the Kobe threads). I don't "rush to judgment" on the accused OR the accuser. I look at the evidence (you know, the actual evidence). Like the fact the medical examiner confirms both the physical and mental signs of abuse and rape (both virginal and anal). Also, the physical evidence that was left behind in the crime scene that collaborates her testimony. That makes it very, very unlikely this is a misunderstanding.

Have they actually been arrested yet?

[GrantDawg]

Have they actually been arrested yet?


"They" who? They don't know which "they" did it. When the "they" is revealed, then the "they" will be arrested.

[gstelmack]

"They" who? They don't know which "they" did it. When the "they" is revealed, then the "they" will be arrested.

Except that a fair population in the area thinks they know who "they" are and have already had the entire team suspended, threatened members of the team, gone after the Duke administration, etc, all without a single arrest.

These guys may be guilty as all get-out, but no one has even been charged yet, let alone found guilty, and people are attacking Duke and the team from all possible directions...

[astrosfan64]

"They" who? They don't know which "they" did it. When the "they" is revealed, then the "they" will be arrested.

She identified "They". So why weren't "they" arrested.

[GrantDawg]

She identified "They". So why weren't "they" arrested.


I thought she couldn't completely identify them which is why the whole team had to give DNA samples.

[panerd]

I have no opinion of Duke at all, and keep an open mind on these things (read the Kobe threads). I don't "rush to judgment" on the accused OR the accuser. I look at the evidence (you know, the actual evidence). Like the fact the medical examiner confirms both the physical and mental signs of abuse and rape (both virginal and anal). Also, the physical evidence that was left behind in the crime scene that collaborates her testimony. That makes it very, very unlikely this is a misunderstanding.

I find it extremely unlikely that you have looked at the actual evidence. A news outlet's best estimation of the evidence maybe, but the actual evidence? Unless you live near Duke you have not seen or heard any actual evidence.

[GrantDawg]

I find it extremely unlikely that you have looked at the actual evidence. A news outlet's best estimation of the evidence maybe, but the actual evidence? Unless you live near Duke you have not seen or heard any actual evidence.


Looked at the testimony given to the court to recieve the search warrants. No, I have literally seen the evidence.

[BishopMVP]

"I'm repelled and repulsed by those trying to equate her with Tawana Brawley of decades ago," said city council member Howard Clement III, referring to the 15-year-old black girl whose 1987 claims of being kidnapped and raped by police proved to be false. "That's awful. And, that just compounds the evil of this whole process."Nooooooooooo.... not Tawana Brawley.... I think we can all agree that the last thing this needs is any (more) reason for Al Sharpton and his ilk to go anywhere near the case.

And to think I had a (women's studies - I know, but it fills 2 GenEds and the ratio is like 80/20) professor make the absurd claim today that "the Duke lacrosse rape would be a much bigger story if the victim was white." Woke me up for sure.

Third point - am I the only one who sees this most likely ending with no convictions due to "lack of sufficient evidence" and the resultant furor that is going to cause?

And the unsubstantiated rumor I heard secondhand from one of the Duke players was that they may end up facing a 3-year death penalty on top of this season's cancellation, ensuring all 47 players will be gone and the AD/President can claim they are starting with a blank state and, presumably, only recruiting players of the highest moral standing who would never dream of drinking underage, playing loud noise or urinating in public, let alone any of the more serious allegations.

[Klinglerware]

An interesting pop-sociological commentary on the male college lacrosse player...

http://www.slate.com/id/2139536/

[gstelmack]

And to think I had a (women's studies - I know, but it fills 2 GenEds and the ratio is like 80/20) professor make the absurd claim today that "the Duke lacrosse rape would be a much bigger story if the victim was white." Woke me up for sure.

It's all over the national media. How does it become a "bigger story" than it is now?

[bulletsponge]

It's all over the national media. How does it become a "bigger story" than it is now?


if the victims were pretty blonde college students

[BishopMVP]

It's all over the national media. How does it become a "bigger story" than it is now?Thats what I said, after I recovered from my shock. The only rape case I can think of that got more publicity than this nationally, especially before a trial started, in recent years was the Kobe case. And you know the racial aspects are loved by people like this (Edit to point out I'm pointing to the author of the Slate piece, not Klingerware)An interesting pop-sociological commentary on the male college lacrosse player...

http://www.slate.com/id/2139536/ Interesting is not the word I would use for that article.


I want to avoid making claims one way or the other on the case at hand, but FWIW, the lacrosse players being attacked for hiding behind a wall of silence apparently are talking, and are telling a different story of events, one that unequivocally states no sexual acts were involved. But without knowing the test results - not just DNA tests, but also ones like toxicology reports that wouldn't come out until trial it's hard to tell who is telling the truth.

[BishopMVP]

if the victims were pretty blonde college studentsIf you want to talk about potential sentencing down the line, the evidence could support that, but in terms of publicity and media attention the racial aspects are only helping to make the story bigger.

[Klinglerware]

And you know the racial aspects are loved by people like this (Edit to point out I'm pointing to the author of the Slate piece, not Klingerware)Interesting is not the word I would use for that article.


FWIW I think that the author is commenting on the socio-economic backgrounds of the lacrosse players themselves, and isn't really playing up the whole white vs black angle that other commentators are seizing on.

I think that the article does tar college lacrosse players with an awfully broad brush, especially since the game is now being played in more public schools these days. But with that being said, it is not an unreasonable thing to say that a higher percentage of lacrosse recruits do come from elite prep schools or high-income area public schools than recruits from other sports like football or basketball. From my own experience in college, I always thought the football players were pretty good, down-to-earth guys while the lacrosse guys were much more arrogant. Again, that's my own personal experience, but I always wondered if the elitist upbringing of some of the lacrosse players had anything to do with it (a larger percentage of the football players came from public schools in mixed-income areas). I would think that would be more of an indictment on the insularity of prep school and/or the self-entitlement generated by a priveleged upbringing than anything to do with lacrosse.

[cuervo72]

That article pretty much summed up my impression of the JHU lax team, when I was there, fwiw. But, that might have been my middle class background being chafed by the sense of self-importance these guys - and their snooty fellow upper-class family members - seemed to possess.

[BishopMVP]

FWIW I think that the author is commenting on the socio-economic backgrounds of the lacrosse players themselves, and isn't really playing up the whole white vs black angle that other commentators are seizing on.Moreso the privileged rich kid angle, but implied in these arguments is that lacrosse is one of two sports (hockey the other) where black athletes don't dominate the sport. A large part of the socio in "socio-economic backround" is race.I think that the article does tar college lacrosse players with an awfully broad brush, especially since the game is now being played in more public schools these days. But with that being said, it is not an unreasonable thing to say that a higher percentage of lacrosse recruits do come from elite prep schools or high-income area public schools than recruits from other sports like football or basketball. From my own experience in college, I always thought the football players were pretty good, down-to-earth guys while the lacrosse guys were much more arrogant. Again, that's my own personal experience, but I always wondered if the elitist upbringing of some of the lacrosse players had anything to do with it (a larger percentage of the football players came from public schools in mixed-income areas). I would think that would be more of an indictment on the insularity of prep school and/or the self-entitlement generated by a priveleged upbringing than anything to do with lacrosse."lacrosse guys are a different breed." ... "The controversy has also exposed the culture of an elitist and relatively obscure sport." ... "he is guilty of a common lacrosse sin: puerile meatheadedness." ... "if any of them are wondering how alcohol-fueled misogyny could fester at one of the nation's top schools, then they simply don't know lacrosse." ... "how could college lacrosse players be any more misogynous than your typical football-team steakhead?" ... "Most guys from single-sex schools are able to adjust. Others join the lacrosse team." ... "My favorite is the one I heard about how half a college team contracted herpes because they all made love to the same crack in their group-house couch. Urban legend? Sure. And yet, I've heard the tale many times, and it's always lacrosse-specific. That's no accident."If I said the author can go fuck himself, I guess it's expected because I play lacrosse. I don't care what you believe about the Duke incident, the sport or its fans/participants, this article is complete bullshit. It would be like someone writing an article about text-sim football players calling them all socially awkward people who live with their parents and have never been laid. The fact that this was published by Slate is ridiculous and removes any respect I had for them (well, I still like Hitchens)."Lacrosse players hail from the privileged, largely white pockets of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic." ... "Some aficionados take pride in the fact that their sport was invented by Native Americans, but I don't imagine many members of the Onondaga Nation end up playing lax at Colgate." ... "Perhaps it's because, unlike their football brethren, an unusually large proportion of college lacrosse players spend their high school years in sheltered, all-boys academies before heading off to liberal co-ed colleges." ... "More than any other sport, lacrosse represents the marriage of athletic aggression and upper-class entitlement." ... "(except in odd places like Maryland, where it's managed to cross class lines)."Now, if you want to get in an actual discussion on this aspect (and even though I'm using quotes from his article, I'm also addressing Klingerware/cuervo's points) I think its as bogus as his claim about Iroquis-descendants (I know at least two at Syracuse off the top of my head because I scrimmaged against them in high school and their whole team had braids, were using hickory sticks, and using like mouth clicks to communicate. And also, they were ridiculously good. if you look at the World Games of Lacrosse, the third best team after the US and Canada is the Iroquis Nation.) First because most lacrosse players (like me) don't go on to play at D1 schools, and don't fit this stereotype. Second because the lacrosse players at D1 powerhouses are in my experience no more elitist and self-entitled than most students at the final four contenders (UMass and maybe UMaryland/Syracuse being the exceptions) and no more misogynistic, arrogant, sexist and violent than those who play football, basketball, hockey, baseball (and they won like 10 games), hell even the Swim team, not to mention most fraternities here at UMass. Third, I think the Maryland excerpt proves the point. (Not just the point the writer is an idiot because he's talking about how Maryland is an odd place when its one of the two places he mentioned lacrosse being popular.) Obviously due to the cost of equipment it will never rise to the level of soccer or basketball or football in poor areas, but lacrosse is the fastest growing youth/high school sport in the US (well, second to Bowling in HS's percentage-wise) probably would be in colleges too if it weren't for Title IX, and as it expands it already has moved out of just being played at elite prep schools by rich kids, and will only continue to do so as it gets more and more popular. But of course I'm not sure I can entirely blame people for their perception of lacrosse players. I mean, this one story is getting 1000x the coverage nationally than everything else involving lacrosse ever has. Even when the Final 4 comes around and ESPN gets involved, you know much of the talk is going to be about this and not the games. When a story like this breaks involving, say, the St. Johns basketball team, or the Nebraska, Florida St, Miami football teams, or any college athletics team, I'm sure I can go looking and come up with examples in most sports, its viewed as a travesty, and rightfully so. Yet when it involves a lacrosse team, suddenly its an indictment on the entire sport.

[kcchief19]

An interesting pop-sociological commentary on the male college lacrosse player...

http://www.slate.com/id/2139536/
There's going to trouble when Chubby wanders back in ...

[Chubby]

I'd love to see where all these private High Schools are that pump out the lacrosse talent.

Hmm, CNY is one of the top 2 (MD being the other) recruiting grounds for lacrosse and only one team is private and is not single sex (and doesn't really produce much D1 talent anyways). Hell, my HS and WG produces 10-20 D1 players a year combined.

What this "story" comes down to is poor african american woman vs rich white boys.

There may or may not have been a rape, I don't know. I do know that I won't be surprised if it comes out that she made everything up because she wasn't paid for uhhhmmm "extra services" she provided.

I'm not even about to go into bashing that article line by line because it's basically a complete load of crap.

[Chubby]

There's going to trouble when Chubby wanders back in ...

The funniest thing is I was about to post "I bet he played HS baseball" before I clicked on the article. Thought I should at least browse it first and in THE FIRST PARAGRAPH he states he played HS baseball.

Big fucking shock there lol.


And in case anyone was wondering. Lacrosse teams typically hate baseball teams and vice versa. What a joke, I think this quote sums it up -

"I sometimes felt less like an heir to the national pastime than a gangly, underclass T-ball player."

Seems someone was a little bothered that lacrosse was "THE" spring sport at his school and not baseball.

[BishopMVP]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2403062

[GrantDawg]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2403062


So, no one remembered her bruises until after these pitcures were found?

[Butter]

So, no one remembered her bruises until after these pitcures were found?

Shhh! It just took the lawyers a while to figure out a plausible story, along with figuring out how to tastefully assassinate a hooker's character. Just let them go.

[Huckleberry]

On the flip side I think it's hilarious that you guys think the best defense strategy would have been to plaster your defense all over the media immediately after the allegations were announced.

How do you know the players didn't tell their lawyers immediately and their lawyers determined the best time to come forward with the information (once all photos had been gathered, for example).

I don't know what happened and I think people that think they know either way are being stupid.

[GrantDawg]

On the flip side I think it's hilarious that you guys think the best defense strategy would have been to plaster your defense all over the media immediately after the allegations were announced.

How do you know the players didn't tell their lawyers immediately and their lawyers determined the best time to come forward with the information (once all photos had been gathered, for example).

I don't know what happened and I think people that think they know either way are being stupid.


Because a plausable defense ends this quickly. Look, this chick was a stripper. There is no denying that most people are going to call her story into question from the very begining. If the lawyers had an agressive defense from the start, this doesn't go very far. They have already tried to call the victim into question, and I promise you if they had something like this earlier it would have been released.

Ps. I had to change "suspect" into "victim." Sadly, it is easy to get the two confused in rape cases because the victim so often becomes the suspect in the media.

[Butter]

How do you know the players didn't tell their lawyers immediately and their lawyers determined the best time to come forward with the information (once all photos had been gathered, for example).

So, you think the players wanted to have the season cancelled and the coach fired?

[Huckleberry]

That's my point. You guys are just taking your guesses at what would work best and you don't know what happened.
So, you think the players wanted to have the season cancelled and the coach fired?
If I realized I was being accused of a gang rape the rest of my lacrosse season would mean about jack shit to me. Just a thought.

[BishopMVP]

I promise you if they had something like this earlier it would have been released.Are you implying they photoshopped the photographs? Or that the lawyer is making them up?

The first sequence of photographs, taken over three and a half minutes, shows two women dancing in negligees in the living room of the house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd., Cheshire said.
He gave the following description of the photographs: In the first, the accuser is prone on the floor, her face in the carpet.
The other photos show her on the floor, on all fours or on her back. The other dancer is on her feet for all the photos. The lacrosse players line the room, drinking out of beer cans and plastic cups, and one photo shows a player unconscious on the floor, his shorts pulled down and his underwear wet.
"The photographs show the accuser has bruises and cuts on her arms, legs and feet," Cheshire said. "These are visible at the very start of the dance."
The dance lasted less than four minutes, Cheshire said, when the second dancer stopped the performance after an offensive remark from a player.
There are no photos for the next 27 minutes. During this time, Cheshire said, the women locked themselves in a bathroom while one of the captains tried to persuade them to continue the show. Some players accused the women of pocketing the $800 fee and not performing. The dancers then left the house, he said.
Cheshire said the next photographs show the accuser on the back porch, fumbling through her purse. One shows her smiling at the photographer. She is still in her negligee, which does not appear torn or damaged, Cheshire said. The next photo, six minutes later, shows her passed out on her side on the back porch, he said. Cheshire said the final photograph, taken three minutes later, shows a team captain helping the accuser into the other dancer's car.

[GrantDawg]

Are you implying they photoshopped the photographs? Or that the lawyer is making them up?

Photoshop wouldn't surprise me. These guys have resources and are not dumb.

[astrosfan64]

Photoshop wouldn't surprise me. These guys have resources and are not dumb.

LOL you are a joke.

[Maple Leafs]

Photoshop wouldn't surprise me. These guys have resources and are not dumb.
Are you serious? You think these guys are going to try to pass off Photoshopped images in a court of law when they're on trial for their lives? This isn't fark.com.

[GrantDawg]

Are you serious? You think these guys are going to try to pass off Photoshopped images in a court of law when they're on trial for their lives? This isn't fark.com.


Asked a question. I haven't seen the photos, so I don't know how easyt things could be shaded differently.

[Maple Leafs]

Asked a question. I haven't seen the photos, so I don't know how easyt things could be shaded differently.
It would be one thing to do a good enough job that Joe Sportsfan would see the images flashed on a TV screen and think they looked real. But if they entered fakes as evidence, an expert would be able to determine they weren't legit and these kids would be done like dinner.

[GrantDawg]

It would be one thing to do a good enough job that Joe Sportsfan would see the images flashed on a TV screen and think they looked real. But if they entered fakes as evidence, an expert would be able to determine they weren't legit and these kids would be done like dinner.

But you notice in the article, they haven't entered them into evidence. They have only entered them into the court of opinions. They have yet to give anything to the prosecutors. Isn't it interesting they have had this exonerating evidence this whole time, something that could save them a good bit of grief and probably their season, but some how have not showed it to anybody until now? Something smells here.

[GrantDawg]

and with that, I'm out of this discussion. Once we see the DNA test, we'll know what's going on.

[BishopMVP]

But you notice in the article, they haven't entered them into evidence. They have only entered them into the court of opinions. They have yet to give anything to the prosecutors. Isn't it interesting they have had this exonerating evidence this whole time, something that could save them a good bit of grief and probably their season, but some how have not showed it to anybody until now? Something smells here.No evidence has been entered by either side because no charges have been filed yet. The defense team was keeping quiet in public while the DA was giving 70+ interviews to news media.

w/regards to their season, 2 games were played and a third scheduled after the night in question, including after all 46 players gave DNA samples, until the news media started publicizing the story. Sadly enough, even if a rape occurred, their season would probably still be going on if the story hadn't gotten so much publicity and pressure on the administration.

[GrantDawg]

No evidence has been entered by either side because no charges have been filed yet. The defense team was keeping quiet in public while the DA was giving 70+ interviews to news media.


What I meant was they have not given these pictures to the prosecutors. I am sorry if that was to hard to understand.

[BishopMVP]

What I meant was they have not given these pictures to the prosecutors. I am sorry if that was to hard to understand.My reading between the lines says that there is evidence of other crimes in the pictures (read: underage drinking) and the defense lawyers are worried they'll be charged with that if the rape charges fall through. So while the pictures may help with regards to the rape charges, they prove guilt on lesser charges. Either way, all this stuff should be going on behind closed doors, but once one side goes public....

[John Galt]

My reading between the lines says that there is evidence of other crimes in the pictures (read: underage drinking) and the defense lawyers are worried they'll be charged with that if the rape charges fall through.

That's just silly. Any defendant would gladly take a minor underage drinking citation to make this rape controversy go away. There may be other reasons why these pictures are just coming out now, but fear of an underage drinking charge is not one of them.

[John Galt]

LOL you are a joke.

I deleted what I posted about you before, but I won't this time. Grantdawg has contributed more to this board than you can begin to comprehend. He is usually a good read and always a valuable member of this community.

You, on the other hand, have proven to be an ass and a troll since you have arrived. You have regularly picked fights with other members and contributed next to nothing to FOFC. So, before you call other members as "a joke," you should really take a long look in the mirror.

[BishopMVP]

That's just silly. Any defendant would gladly take a minor underage drinking citation to make this rape controversy go away.These pictures alone aren't enough to make it go away. Even if all 46 DNA samples come back negative that's not enough to just make it go away, so it makes sense in my mind to avoid admitting to anything until those results come back and they figure out what they are being charged with.

But I could very well be wrong, I'm no lawyer and luckily I'm not too familiar with how cases like this normally go.

[molson]

ESPN says the DNA tests are done, and that the DA’s office and police have them. Defense is supposed to get copies shortly. I imagine that if the results clear them completely, the defense attorneys will make them public pretty quickly.

[BishopMVP]

ESPN says the DNA tests are done, and that the DA’s office and police have them. Defense is supposed to get copies shortly. I imagine that if the results clear them completely, the defense attorneys will make them public pretty quickly.Funny quote from the ESPN article Candy Clark, administrative assistant to District Attorney Mike Nifong, said Monday that the prosecutor would not comment on the results. She said copies were being made Monday afternoon for defense attorneys.
"If the defense releases them, that's up to them,'' Clark said. "If charges are going to be pending, he can't be discussing them.''That didn't seem to be his attitude last week.

[John Galt]

ESPN says the DNA tests are done, and that the DA’s office and police have them. Defense is supposed to get copies shortly. I imagine that if the results clear them completely, the defense attorneys will make them public pretty quickly.

Does anyone know what these DNA samples are of? Without knowing that, I'm unclear how the samples will prove much of anything.

[BishopMVP]

Does anyone know what these DNA samples are of? Without knowing that, I'm unclear how the samples will prove much of anything.If they did the whole rape kit thing and had semen from the body of the victim, it would prove who had sex with her. If she was clawing at them and had skin or blood under her fingernails it would prove who's that was. I seem to recall the fingernail thing being mentioned in the affidavit, but I don't know for sure what they were testing for. Overall in the beginning I remember it sounding like they were going to use the DNA to identify which 3 of the 46 were involved in the rape, but I don't know if I got that impression from the prosecutor, and what he would have to test this, or just my impression.

[John Galt]

If they did the whole rape kit thing and had semen from the body of the victim, it would prove who had sex with her. If she was clawing at them and had skin or blood under her fingernails it would prove who's that was. I seem to recall the fingernail thing being mentioned in the affidavit, but I don't know for sure what they were testing for. Overall in the beginning I remember it sounding like they were going to use the DNA to identify which 3 of the 46 were involved in the rape, but I don't know if I got that impression from the prosecutor, and what he would have to test this, or just my impression.

If it's semen, then that is definitely important. If there is no semen, however, that really doesn't prove anything (condoms). If they have skin fragments from below the fingernails, that may be the most important evidence. But it's unclear to me how DNA can ever really exonerate anyone in this case (unless I'm missing something) without pointing to someone else within the group. The fact that they have samples at all is interesting, but I'm really in the dark about how these could clear the lacrosse players as a whole.

[Huckleberry]

The DA ordered the tests. This indicates they had samples recovered from the woman (semen, skin, blood are possibilities). If the DNA tests show that none of the suspects match that DNA, then they know those samples did not come from any of the players.

Possible explanation could be that the woman was raped by someone else. The photos allegedly show that the woman left the house in an unconscious condition.

Anyway, just more possibilities. I don't see why the prosecution would order DNA tests without samples from the woman.

[BishopMVP]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2404002 DURHAM, N.C. -- There is no DNA match between members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team and an exotic dancer who told police she was sexually assaulted at a team party, attorneys for some of the team's players said Monday.
Citing DNA test results delivered by the state crime lab to police and prosecutors a few hours earlier, the attorneys said the test results prove their clients did not sexually assault and beat a stripper hired to perform at a March 13 team party.
No charged have been filed in the case.
"No DNA material from any young man was present on the body of this complaining woman," said defense attorney Wade Smith.

[SirFozzie]

Well now, this is interesting.. if true.

[bulletsponge]

nothing was on her body! no skin or saliva or semen! im suprised, even if they used rubbers i expect skin samples at least

[SirFozzie]

there may have been other people that matched, (which does give credence to the "She was F***ed up when she got here..) but APPARENTLY none of the lacrosse players matched

[BishopMVP]

Well now, this is interesting.. if true.if true? Again, I highly doubt that highly-paid Defense attorneys in a high-profile case would send out a press release on the major point of the case without it being true.

[SirFozzie]

if true? Again, I highly doubt that highly-paid Defense attorneys in a high-profile case would send out a press release on the major point of the case without it being true.

Sure, it's far fetched, but considering where this case has gone.. it's like a bad soap opera..

[TroyF]

This entire case is bizzare.

If nobody did anything, why on Earth didn't more of the team just step forward and say "hey everyone, nothing happened, everyone is innocent"

Why did they lock up tighter than Fort Knox and try to fend off the media.

If the two main things that came out today are true (time stamped photos and no DNA match), it's going to be next to impossible to convict any of these guys for anything other than a few underage drinking charges.

Not good for the prosecution here at all.

[BishopMVP]

Sure, it's far fetched, but considering where this case has gone.. it's like a bad soap opera..I think any lawyer who purposefully put out a false press release would be liable for disbarrment.

There is still other evidence present, so I don't think this completely exonerates the players, especially when certain allegations like the underage drinking and racial slurs appear to be true, but I think on the DNA tests themselves its impossible to spin the results. You can spin what they mean (if they had come back true, defense starts saying consensual sex; if they came back no match as in this case prosecutor might still try to prosecute based off other evidence {and directly said as much, that he's 'had rape cases without DNA evidence before, and he'll do it in this case if he has to'}) but you can't spin the test results themselves.

[Huckleberry]

If nobody did anything, why on Earth didn't more of the team just step forward and say "hey everyone, nothing happened, everyone is innocent"

Why did they lock up tighter than Fort Knox and try to fend off the media.


I still don't get this line of thinking. Let's just say that if you are ever accused of rape and know you didn't do anything I would recommend you get an attorney immediately and do what your attorney suggests.

[astrosfan64]

I deleted what I posted about you before, but I won't this time. Grantdawg has contributed more to this board than you can begin to comprehend. He is usually a good read and always a valuable member of this community.

You, on the other hand, have proven to be an ass and a troll since you have arrived. You have regularly picked fights with other members and contributed next to nothing to FOFC. So, before you call other members as "a joke," you should really take a long look in the mirror.

Relax, John. I do think my gambling dynasty was quite the contribution, especially when I went broke doing it. I taught people the pitfalls of gambling.

It is obvious that Grantdawg has it out for these Duke guys. He never once, took a wait and see approach. He accused them and read them the riot act before any evidence was present.

It appears now, this chick was lying. My point throughout this whole thing is the media made up peoples minds, not the facts.

Lets look at the evidence shall we.


We have a stripper/hooker accusing people of raping her
We have no charges at all leveled against any of the Duke players
We have a stripper/hooker with marks on her body
We have a racially sensitivy area/case so the DA has to look like he is being tough on these rich white kids
As we have more evidence come out, we find her "friend" is the person who called in
We have some dumbass kid writing an email
Pictures that show her hurt before she got there
Now we have DNA that doesn't match


America is loosing its way. These kids had their season taken from them, a coach lost his job all because of accusations. If they proved to be true, then sure all that is fine.

BUT IN AMERICA YOU ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

Something grantdawg forgot in this thread. I do agree he is a very valuable member to this community, but in this thread he lost his way. That doesn't change the fact, that I still think you are a whiney little bitch. Which, I would imagine even you have to agree with.

Have a good day.

[BishopMVP]

This entire case is bizzare.

If nobody did anything, why on Earth didn't more of the team just step forward and say "hey everyone, nothing happened, everyone is innocent"

Why did they lock up tighter than Fort Knox and try to fend off the media.They have been saying this, privately and publically. No one has believed their denials up until now. From the captains statement issued March 28 Statement Issued Tuesday by the Duke Captains

Durham, N.C. -- "The captains of the team met this morning with President Brodhead and expressed sincere regret over the lapse in judgment in having the party on March 13 which has caused so much anguish for the Duke community and shame to our families and ourselves.

"We also stated unequivocally that any allegation that a sexual assault or rape occurred is totally and transparently false.

"The team has cooperated with the police in their investigation. We have provided authorities with DNA samples. The understanding is that the results of the DNA testing will be available sometime next week. The DNA results will demonstrate that these allegations are absolutely false.They've also had all the e-mails, most of which, while certainly not flattering to the team, talk about the stripper as a cracked-out whore who was offering sex for money and they laughed her off because they didn't want to get an STD. When ayone came out and said no sexual assault happened, they were assumed to be lying and covering up for their teammates.

[astrosfan64]

It is in the article that she says these things happened. So, you're saying she made the claims these happened, the police looked at her and didn't find any physical indication that it did happen, but they still got a search warrant and DNA samples. Why? All of the police are North Carolina fans?

I think they are north carolina fans.

[SirFozzie]

Relax, John. I do think my gambling dynasty was quite the contribution, especially when I went broke doing it. I taught people the pitfalls of gambling.

It is obvious that Grantdawg has it out for these Duke guys. He never once, took a wait and see approach. He accused them and read them the riot act before any evidence was present.

It appears now, this chick was lying. My point throughout this whole thing is the media made up peoples minds, not the facts.

Lets look at the evidence shall we.


We have a stripper/hooker accusing people of raping her
We have no charges at all leveled against any of the Duke players
We have a stripper/hooker with marks on her body
We have a racially sensitivy area/case so the DA has to look like he is being tough on these rich white kids
As we have more evidence come out, we find her "friend" is the person who called in
We have some dumbass kid writing an email
Pictures that show her hurt before she got there
Now we have DNA that doesn't match


America is loosing its way. These kids had their season taken from them, a coach lost his job all because of accusations. If they proved to be true, then sure all that is fine.

BUT IN AMERICA YOU ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

Something grantdawg forgot in this thread. I do agree he is a very valuable member to this community, but in this thread he lost his way. That doesn't change the fact, that I still think you are a whiney little bitch. Which, I would imagine even you have to agree with.

Have a good day.

You're a very poor winner, aren't you?

[Klinglerware]

America is loosing its way. These kids had their season taken from them, a coach lost his job all because of accusations. If they proved to be true, then sure all that is fine.



Let's not paint the players as saints, either. If you read my first few posts on the first page, I make no mention of the rape allegation but I do note that the players should have had no business putting themselves in an alcohol situation so indiscreetly, especially since many of them had priors. Pressler (originally from the next town over from where I live) has said that he felt betrayed by his players, not by the stripper.

http://www.courant.com/sports/highschool/hc-dukelacrosse0406.artapr06,0,1757150.story?coll=hc-headlines-sports-highschool

The underage drinking could have gotten the players suspended, depending on the program's rules. The racial taunting, if proven, will get them separated from Duke. The e-mail has already done so for one player.

[SirFozzie]

I think they are north carolina fans.

Dola: Never mind a poor winner, more like just plain poor.

[Easy Mac]

Let's not paint the players as saints, either. If you read my first few posts on the first page, I make no mention of the rape allegation but I do note that the players should have had no business putting themselves in an alcohol situation so indiscreetly, especially since many of them had priors. Pressler (originally from the next town over from where I live) has said that he felt betrayed by his players, not by the stripper.

I'd have to say you never went to college. I couldn't tell you the amount of people i went to school with who shouldn't have drunk the way they did, some with some form of a record. Its called being in college... they do stupid things involving alcohol (though i'm sure someone will take these words out of context and say i promote raping someone, since this is the fofc and people can't read).

[SirFozzie]

I'd have to say you never went to college. I couldn't tell you the amount of people i went to school with who shouldn't have drunk the way they did, some with some form of a record. Its called being in college... they do stupid things involving alcohol (though i'm sure someone will take these words out of context and say i promote raping someone, since this is the fofc and people can't read).

Criminal Stupidity doesn't become magically legal at certain ages. Yes, it's a bit outside the norm, as suddenly folks are thrown outside the comfy confines of hearth and home, but that's no excuse for being a fucking idiot.

[BishopMVP]

Let's not paint the players as saints, either. If you read my first few posts on the first page, I make no mention of the rape allegation but I do note that the players should have had no business putting themselves in an alcohol situation so indiscreetly, especially since many of them had priors. Pressler (originally from the next town over from where I live) has said that he felt betrayed by his players, not by the stripper.

http://www.courant.com/sports/highschool/hc-dukelacrosse0406.artapr06,0,1757150.story?coll=hc-headlines-sports-highschool

The underage drinking could have gotten the players suspended, depending on the program's rules. The racial taunting, if proven, will get them separated from Duke. The e-mail has already done so for one player.I agree with this except for the bolded part. They were doing it at a private party with only lacrosse players and 2 other girls (the strippers) there. That's a lot more discreet than going out to a bar or other parties, which I know pretty much every college athlete here at UMass does. Should they avoid drinking at all if they are on a D1 scholarship? Probably, but (almost) no one does, and the only reason the coach/administration found out about this was because of the rape allegation.

[Klinglerware]

I'd have to say you never went to college. I couldn't tell you the amount of people i went to school with who shouldn't have drunk the way they did, some with some form of a record. Its called being in college... they do stupid things involving alcohol (though i'm sure someone will take these words out of context and say i promote raping someone, since this is the fofc and people can't read).

Umm,

http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/StatsSummaries/snapshot.aspx

Police Involvement: About 5 percent of 4-year college students are involved with the police or campus security as a result of their drinking (Wechsler et al., 2002) and an estimated 110,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are arrested for an alcohol-related violation such as public drunkenness or driving under the influence (Hingson et al., 2002).

Sure, everyone in college parties, and the campus police know it and tolerate it (at least where I went to school). That's why 95% escape college without actually getting arrested. You have to be incredibly indiscreet or be doing something egregious to actually get charged...

[Easy Mac]

Criminal Stupidity doesn't become magically legal at certain ages. Yes, it's a bit outside the norm, as suddenly folks are thrown outside the comfy confines of hearth and home, but that's no excuse for being a fucking idiot.

So you're saying this is the first college party involving alcohol and strippers? lets not pretend that the most mundane parts of this tale are any different than the things that take place at practically every college. Hell, these things (drinking and strippers) happened on my hall freshman year at a dry (no alcohol) campus. Is it stupid, yes, but its more or less the accepted norm at college.

[Klinglerware]

I agree with this except for the bolded part. They were doing it at a private party with only lacrosse players and 2 other girls (the strippers) there. That's a lot more discreet than going out to a bar or other parties, which I know pretty much every college athlete here at UMass does. Should they avoid drinking at all if they are on a D1 scholarship? Probably, but (almost) no one does, and the only reason the coach/administration found out about this was because of the rape allegation.

That's a fair point. As I said, I'd probably be a bit more careful if I were on strike two. But then again, I'm not 19 anymore either...

[Easy Mac]

Umm,

http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/StatsSummaries/snapshot.aspx



Sure, everyone in college parties, and the campus police know it and tolerate it (at least where I went to school). That's why 95% escape college without actually getting arrested. You have to be incredibly indiscreet or be doing something egregious to actually get charged...
A lot of schools I know of don't prosecute people for underage drinking but handle it internally. its only after the 5th or 6th time that they do something about it.

[SirFozzie]

The College I went to was on a completely dry campus (2 year school, etcetera). Some idiot registered, and when he was heading up to his dorm room, campus security noticed he was carrying a keg up to his room. They attempted to seize it. He decided not to allow them to seize it. They kicked him out of the school before he registered for a single course.

[SirFozzie]

So you're saying this is the first college party involving alcohol and strippers? lets not pretend that the most mundane parts of this tale are any different than the things that take place at practically every college. Hell, these things (drinking and strippers) happened on my hall freshman year at a dry (no alcohol) campus. Is it stupid, yes, but its more or less the accepted norm at college.

then the Colleges are at fault. Once again, just because you're magically no longer under mom and dad's thumbs, doesn't give you carte blanche to be an idiot. The law is the law. The law states you have to be 21 to drink alcohol legally.

And if the College knows about underage drinking ON CAMPUS, they should be criminally liable.

[panerd]

This thread has taken a very disappointing turn. Give up the alcohol and sex are not the norm at college parties arguement. It just shows you have never attended college or are very naive. (Not wrong in your arguement mind you, but very naive)

[Easy Mac]

i agree that they had no reason to act like idiots, but a lot of people here have acted like "oh my, strippers and alcohol, ban the team". Thats what guys do in college, i'd venture to say athletes do it more than the norm. doesn't make it right, but that part of the story shouldn't come as a shock.

[Easy Mac]

dola, and i agree that if the rape is even remotely proven, then they should all go to jail for a long, long time. hell, if they hit the woman they should.

[BishopMVP]

then the Colleges are at fault. Once again, just because you're magically no longer under mom and dad's thumbs, doesn't give you carte blanche to be an idiot. The law is the law. The law states you have to be 21 to drink alcohol legally.

And if the College knows about underage drinking ON CAMPUS, they should be criminally liable.LOL. So they should make sure they kids go party off-campus, where they then drive back drunk? It'd be funnier if this wasn't exactly what my school - UMass - has been trying to do the past few years, directly leading to more high-risk behavior (binge drinking and drunk driving.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

dola, and i agree that if the rape is even remotely proven,

Umm ... shouldn't that be "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" or something like that?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Once again, just because you're magically no longer under mom and dad's thumbs, doesn't give you carte blanche to be an idiot.

Au contraire ... that seems to be a popular opinion in some segments of society today. Hell Fozzie, I'm not sure things aren't so far gone that it'd be a majority opinion if we put it to a vote.

[Easy Mac]

Umm ... shouldn't that be "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" or something like that?

Nah, i see them as the same things.

[Klinglerware]

LOL. So they should make sure they kids go party off-campus, where they then drive back drunk? It'd be funnier if this wasn't exactly what my school - UMass - has been trying to do the past few years, directly leading to more high-risk behavior (binge drinking and drunk driving.)

Yeah, I don't understand this either. URI went through this about a decade ago when they decided to "go dry". The week it happened, I had to go to apply for a liquor license for a party my frat was throwing (I went to another school in the state). The official who granted my liquor license actually commented that what we were allowed/required to do was sensible compared to what was going on at URI, since the blanket on-campus prohibition really only pushed the students to risk drunk-driving.

But then again, it's Rhode Island--you never know if that official was an intelligent man with a heart of gold, or a crook!

[Glengoyne]

Is it OK for Limbaugh to call her a "ho" now?

It was hugely insensitive, but I think he was trying to be funny. In fact I found it a little funny. Not because he called her a HO, but because the statement was SO inappropriate. It just struck a funny bone for me. It's like Limbaugh was auditioning for "The Office"

[Klinglerware]

Is it OK for Limbaugh to call her a "ho" now?



It'll be okay with me if Limbaugh also says that he is on board with the admissions preferences that the Duke lacrosse team likely received. ;)

[BrianD]

From my college experiences, drinking goes on everywhere and involves a large portion of the student body. I'm sure the school knows about it, but there isn't really anyone around that can do much about it at night when the parties are going on.

As far as colleges handling underage drinking on their own, that hasn't been anywhere close to my experience. It seemed like nearly every weekend parties got broken up and people cited. There were at least a couple of parties where police showed up with busses and carted everybody downtown.

This Duke party (without the alleged assault) sounds like an average weekend and any school I am familiar with.

[BishopMVP]

But then again, it's Rhode Island--you never know if that official was an intelligent man with a heart of gold, or a crook!Given it's Rhode Island the latter is probably a given.

[rexallllsc]

This entire case is bizzare.

If nobody did anything, why on Earth didn't more of the team just step forward and say "hey everyone, nothing happened, everyone is innocent"

Why did they lock up tighter than Fort Knox and try to fend off the media.

If the two main things that came out today are true (time stamped photos and no DNA match), it's going to be next to impossible to convict any of these guys for anything other than a few underage drinking charges.

Not good for the prosecution here at all.

Maybe (just a wild guess here), the underage drinking would be enough to get guys booted from the team/school?

[Logan]

Maybe (just a wild guess here), the underage drinking would be enough to get guys booted from the team/school?

Not a chance. They would get suspended for a game for violation of team rules. Max.

[SirFozzie]

Au contraire ... that seems to be a popular opinion in some segments of society today. Hell Fozzie, I'm not sure things aren't so far gone that it'd be a majority opinion if we put it to a vote.

I'm looking at this thread and seeing how many people brush off on-campus drinking by saying that they'll just go do it off-campus if it's barred.. but it brings back the old saw about how an uneforcable law weakens all the others. The more laws it's felt ok to break due to whatever reason, such as "College Kids are going to be stupid anyway.." It weakens the foundation that our society is builkt on.

[BrianD]

I'm looking at this thread and seeing how many people brush off on-campus drinking by saying that they'll just go do it off-campus if it's barred.. but it brings back the old saw about how an uneforcable law weakens all the others. The more laws it's felt ok to break due to whatever reason, such as "College Kids are going to be stupid anyway.." It weakens the foundation that our society is builkt on.

The law isn't unenforceable. People are cited for underage drinking all the time. This doesn't decrease the number of college kids that drink though. It is kind of like speeders. Most do it and everyone knows that very few get caught.

[GrantDawg]

It is obvious that Grantdawg has it out for these Duke guys. He never once, took a wait and see approach. He accused them and read them the riot act before any evidence was present.


I based everything I said on actual evidence presented in court by sworn testimony of the officers in the case from the search warrants. You have based everything you have said from some case that happened at St. Johns a few years ago. I'm the one basing things on no evidence? That's humorous.

And BTW, the innocent until proven guilt is for the COURT. I can have an opinion, as well as anyone else can. As long as I don't put them in prison, what I think really doesn't matter one way or another. I still believe something happened that night (which is all I have said from the beginning). I have no personal hatred for Duke or Lax players (I've never even met a Lax player). I do get angry when people immediataly assume rape victims are liars. Having dealt with a number of women that have been raped, I know it is this judging that is so hard on them. This is why there are so many unreported rapes.

[astrosfan64]

I based everything I said on actual evidence presented in court by sworn testimony of the officers in the case from the search warrants. You have based everything you have said from some case that happened at St. Johns a few years ago. I'm the one basing things on no evidence? That's humorous.

And BTW, the innocent until proven guilt is for the COURT. I can have an opinion, as well as anyone else can. As long as I don't put them in prison, what I think really doesn't matter one way or another. I still believe something happened that night (which is all I have said from the beginning). I have no personal hatred for Duke or Lax players (I've never even met a Lax player). I do get angry when people immediataly assume rape victims are liars. Having dealt with a number of women that have been raped, I know it is this judging that is so hard on them. This is why there are so many unreported rapes.


I don't believe anyone thought that because she was a rape victim she was a liar. I stated from the very beginning, we need to wait and see before we condemn anyone at all. This chick is sounding more and more like a crack HO. I believe that she tried to get sex for money and they turned her down. So she called the cops and came up with this story.

I've known strippers "lived with one for four years" and the ones that goto houses solo are hookers period. Not really any other way to describe it.

If this story would of read something like, "Duke lacross players have frat party and woman who attends party was raped. I would be much more inclined to believe the story."

The media wanted everyone to believe this chick was telling the truth.

The DA didn't press charges on them because he knew that she was lying. He just couldn't come out and say that, because she was black. It is pretty pathetic the politics involved. But, if he truely believed this chick he would of arrested some of these guys with our without DNA.

[GrantDawg]

The DA didn't press charges on them because he knew that she was lying. He just couldn't come out and say that, because she was black. It is pretty pathetic the politics involved. But, if he truely believed this chick he would of arrested some of these guys with our without DNA.


The DA still states he believes a rape occured.

[astrosfan64]

The DA still states he believes a rape occured.

After the DNA? I didn't see that. I saw a quote that he wasn't available for comment. If he believes it, then he should press charges.

[GrantDawg]

After the DNA? I didn't see that. I saw a quote that he wasn't available for comment. If he believes it, then he should press charges.


To do that, he needs collaborating evidence. He needs a complete case (which is why he was waiting for the DNA test in the first place). It is not enough to believe or even just have evidence, he needs "beyond reasonable doubt" evidence, or the case is doomed.

[GrantDawg]

District Attorney Mike Nifong has said he would have other evidence to make his case should the DNA analysis prove inconclusive or fail to match a member of the team.
While Nifong's assistant told the AP on Monday the prosecutor would not comment on the findings, Nifong told The News & Observer of Raleigh he believes a sexual assault took place.
"I'm not saying it's over," he told the newspaper. "If that's what they expect, they will be sadly disappointed."

Quote from article.

[BishopMVP]

I'm looking at this thread and seeing how many people brush off on-campus drinking by saying that they'll just go do it off-campus if it's barred... but it brings back the old saw about how an unenforcable law weakens all the others. The more laws it's felt ok to break, due to whatever reason, weakens the foundation that our society is built on.Couldn't agree more on this. I just disagree on the solution - you seem to think in this case where most people participate in the illegal behavior that catching and punishing everyone is possible, while I believe that it's an indication that the law shouldn't be on the books. Prohibition didn't work the first time it was tried, I don't see why anyone would expect it to these days.As long as I don't put them in prison, what I think really doesn't matter one way or another.You're entitled to your opinion, but don't pretend that these players won't suffer adverse effects from being judged guilty in the court of public opinion. I can guarantee that a significant segment of the population will consider these players rapists no matter how much exculpatory evidence is presented. I've seen it happen two separate times back in high school to classmates - accused of rape, both completely exonerated because there was videotape of the sexual encounter clearly showing it was consensual, but yet irreparable damage done to their reputation. That's the reason I think strongly that rape shield laws should go both ways and these things should be handled behind closed doors until trial.

[GrantDawg]

You're entitled to your opinion, but don't pretend that these players won't suffer adverse effects from being judged guilty in the court of public opinion. I can guarantee that a significant segment of the population will consider these players rapists no matter how much exculpatory evidence is presented. I've seen it happen two separate times back in high school to classmates - accused of rape, both completely exonerated because there was videotape of the sexual encounter clearly showing it was consensual, but yet irreparable damage done to their reputation. That's the reason I think strongly that rape shield laws should go both ways and these things should be handled behind closed doors until trial.


Did I pretend anything? They already have suffered adverse effects. And I agree that rape shield laws should protect both. It is just difficult to walk the fine line of protecting the innocent (both raped or accused falsely) and people's "right to know" plus keeping our legal system as transparent as possible.

[Glengoyne]

It'll be okay with me if Limbaugh also says that he is on board with the admissions preferences that the Duke lacrosse team likely received. ;)

Admissions preferences for a Lacrosse team? Are you kidding?

hehe That said. Admission preferences for guys who will give the University a winning athletic team make a hell of a lot more sense than Admission preferences promoting a touch feely intangible thing like "diversity".

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Wow, did Grantdawg come out heavy on this against the lacrosse team or what? I mean, did he seriously suggest the photos may have been photoshopped? As for his claim that the photos are fake/don't exist because they weren't released right away is just not accurate. Trust me, any good lawyer would not have released them right away. For one, you want to see what else happens first. Second, all the lawyers have to review them first to make sure what they have. Third, I'm sure there not exactly flattering to the people besides her who are in the photos, so if you don't need them right away, you wait. Fourth, you don't shoot all your bullets right away in a p.r. battle. And so on.

As for claiming you've seen all the evidence because you read the application/affidavit for the search warrant is over the top. That's one side of the story, loaded up to get the warrant.

Now, I am still not saying a rape did or did not occur, but jumping hard on either side of this at such an early stage was seriously misguided. Now with the DNA evidence, it looks extremely premature.

[Huckleberry]

They swabbed under her fingernails, inside her vagina, all of her personal belongings, etc. and they found not one piece of DNA that matches any of the players.

I believe this woman may have been raped. I just haven't seen any evidence that proves to me the Duke lacrosse players did it at that party.

[Klinglerware]

Admissions preferences for a Lacrosse team? Are you kidding?

hehe That said. Admission preferences for guys who will give the University a winning athletic team make a hell of a lot more sense than Admission preferences promoting a touch feely intangible thing like "diversity".

Uhh, yes--recruited athletes do catch admissions breaks. When the regular admit typically has a 1400 SAT score, the athletic department needs a few breaks to keep their teams competitive, especially at the 1-A level.

Personally, whatever you think of college admissions preferences I can respect someone who is logically consistent. For me, there really is no difference between a recruited athlete, under-represented minority, alumni kid, or tuba player. I am not opposed to any of these preferences. I hope my kids get the alumni preference. There are many people who rail against affirmative action in college admissions but clam up when confronted by the athletic admissions practices of their own favorite collegiate sports teams. I never understood why the divergent stances with regards to the different preference programs, when the net result is the same.

And again, I am not opposed to admissions breaks for athletes. They contribute to the "well rounded" student body as much as the minority kid, the tuba player, the kid from Alaska, etc.

Finally, for anyone interested in the various categories of preferences at Duke:

http://www.collegejournal.com/aidadmissions/newstrends/20030224-golden.html?refresh=on

% of freshman class eligible for preference:
18% - Underrepresented Minority
15% - North Carolina/South Carolina Resident
12% - Child of Alumni
8% - Recruited Athlete
3-5% - Child of Potential High-Level Donor

[Samdari]

Admissions preferences for a Lacrosse team? Are you kidding?

Are you seriously suggesting these do not exist?

Admissions preferences for things other than academics exist all over the place. They certainly happen for athletics in every sport at every level, at every school I've ever heard of. Not only that, but there are also financial aid preferences for non scholarship athletes. Schools won't completely abandon their standards to let an athlete in, but their applications are certainly viewed apart from the general applicant pool at the request of the athletic department.

[GrantDawg]

They swabbed under her fingernails, inside her vagina, all of her personal belongings, etc. and they found not one piece of DNA that matches any of the players.

I believe this woman may have been raped. I just haven't seen any evidence that proves to me the Duke lacrosse players did it at that party.


Here is the question then: where and who? She shows the physical signs of rape, both virginal and anal. She says it happened in the house. If the rape occurred, where did it happen? When did it happen? It had to have happened that night, or the medical examiner could have told. What is the possibility that someone other than a lacross player was in that house?

[astrosfan64]

Here is the question then: where and who? She shows the physical signs of rape, both virginal and anal. She says it happened in the house. If the rape occurred, where did it happen? When did it happen? It had to have happened that night, or the medical examiner could have told. What is the possibility that someone other than a lacross player was in that house?

My guess is she was raped before she got to the house. Maybe from her Pimp?

[GrantDawg]

My guess is she was raped before she got to the house. Maybe from her Pimp?

Possible (though I doubt she has a "pimp." She wasn't a street walker), but why then say it happened there? The only possible explaination is she allowed her self to be beaten and rape to set up these Lax players. Just doesn't sound feasible.

[Huckleberry]

There are lots of possibilities. She passed out on their porch. That leads to the possibility of all sorts of memory loss.

Heck, if she was indeed high as a kite she might have remembered being raped, remembered being at that house, and remembered being in the bathroom and created a memory. So she might have truly believed that she was raped in that bathroom at that party even if she wasn't. The problem is that the cops took the fingernails she claims to have left behind and if things happened as she described there should have been DNA evidence under those nails that matched at least one of the players.

There's no way to tell at this point.

[GrantDawg]

There are lots of possibilities. She passed out on their porch. That leads to the possibility of all sorts of memory loss.

Heck, if she was indeed high as a kite she might have remembered being raped, remembered being at that house, and remembered being in the bathroom and created a memory. So she might have truly believed that she was raped in that bathroom at that party even if she wasn't. The problem is that the cops took the fingernails she claims to have left behind and if things happened as she described there should have been DNA evidence under those nails that matched at least one of the players.

There's no way to tell at this point.

Here is where that breaks down...she doesn't remember where she was anally raped, but she remembers her fingernails breaking? The finger nails breaking is connected with the rape, but those broke in the bathroom. Is there other DNA on the finger nails than hers? If so, whose?

[BrianD]

This would provide good inspiration for an episode of "The Evidence". We've got about 4 pieces of evidence, and from that we will deduce all of the events surrounding the case. Not bad.

[astrosfan64]

Here is where that breaks down...she doesn't remember where she was anally raped, but she remembers her fingernails breaking? The finger nails breaking is connected with the rape, but those broke in the bathroom. Is there other DNA on the finger nails than hers? If so, whose?

There is the chance that she is completely making up the whole story about the LAX team. She was part of an escort service. Many of these services are really prostitution rings. I'm sad to say, I know quite a bit about the seedy side of things. I saw many of my X's friends go down the wrong path.

My guess is she got tossed around by someone before going out for the night. Maybe a boyfriend, pimp or a customer before the LAX team. She showed up there and was "fucked up" and looked like a skank. The dickhead LAX guys taunted her, called her a slut, skank etc... She was messed up and was like, I'll suck your dick for $50 bucks or whatever. They said, some nasty shit to her and treated her like dirt. She got pissed off and called the cops and reported them for rape.

That isn't that far fetched.

[GrantDawg]

There is the chance that she is completely making up the whole story about the LAX team. She was part of an escort service. Many of these services are really prostitution rings. I'm sad to say, I know quite a bit about the seedy side of things. I saw many of my X's friends go down the wrong path.

My guess is she got tossed around by someone before going out for the night. Maybe a boyfriend, pimp or a customer before the LAX team. She showed up there and was "fucked up" and looked like a skank. The dickhead LAX guys taunted her, called her a slut, skank etc... She was messed up and was like, I'll suck your dick for $50 bucks or whatever. They said, some nasty shit to her and treated her like dirt. She got pissed off and called the cops and reported them for rape.

That isn't that far fetched.


Yes and no. It seems a bit extreme, and there are contradictions that are hard to get over. More evidence is needed to get to the root of things, but it still looks to me like a rape occured in that bathroom.

[molson]

Yes and no. It seems a bit extreme, and there are contradictions that are hard to get over. More evidence is needed to get to the root of things, but it still looks to me like a rape occured in that bathroom.

Why are you still so sure? Because they found a broken nail? Because an escort/prostitute showed signs of rape? (She probably had clients before and after this party) Because of her word? Am I missing anything? astrosfan64's explanation is the most reasonable I've seen so far.

[GrantDawg]

Why are you still so sure? Because they found a broken nail? Because an escort/prostitute showed signs of rape? (She probably had clients before and after this party) Because of her word? Am I missing anything? astrosfan64's explanation is the most reasonable I've seen so far.


For the same reasons the DA is. Namely evidence of rape and trauma on the victim, the sworn testimony of a trained proffesional that the mental state of the victim was consitant with rape, and evidence at the scene of where the victim said the crime occured.

[Huckleberry]

For the same reasons the DA is. Namely evidence of rape and trauma on the victim, the sworn testimony of a trained proffesional that the mental state of the victim was consitant with rape, and evidence at the scene of where the victim said the crime occured.

So the evidence indicates she was raped and that she was in the bathroom at some point.

I still don't see the evidence that she was raped in that bathroom.

[TroyF]

For the same reasons the DA is. Namely evidence of rape and trauma on the victim, the sworn testimony of a trained proffesional that the mental state of the victim was consitant with rape, and evidence at the scene of where the victim said the crime occured.


And the problem is, you haven't seen any of this evidence in which to form your opinion.

I have ZERO clue what happened in that room. I couldn't even begin to guess.

The problems from a prosecution standpoint are now beyond difficult. You have no DNA evidence. If the photos are accurate and timestamped you now have another issue. The phone call which came from the "friend" who altered stories about walking/driving by the scene.

Look, in a criminal case, it's "beyond a reasonable doubt"

As of now, the DA hasn't been able to come up with enough evidence to press charges. He didn't even know which of the 46 players were involved in the accuses sexual assault, which is why he had them all take DNA tests. Now he doesn't have that.

Am I supposed to believe he can now come up with enough evidence to prove beyond doubt that specific members of the team assaulted this women and that the physical evidence at the crime scene can prove it?

These cases suck. I think the first reaction of anybody who knows a person who has been raped is to throw everyone under the bus because there is NO WAY women make stuff like this up.

The real world isn't as easy. Women do cry wolf. Social workers aren't telepathic geniuses that can know everything. They make their best guess based on other rape victims, but they don't shoot 100%. I'm sure some of that guess was made on the basis of her bruises and cuts. If those photos show the bruising prior to the alledged attack, would the social workers opinion be changed a bit maybe?

I don't know and neither do you. What I do know is that if the photos are accurate, the prosecution has a gigantic, gigantic problem now. I think they have a case that's about as close to unproveable as there is. Their only hope is the photos are photoshopped, because if they aren't, this case is as good as over.

I respect you Grant and I know where you're coming from. I'm one of those people who has had someone close to me suffer an assault. But that doesn't give you the right to assume something happened in that bedroom without the evidence to back it up.

[BishopMVP]

So the evidence indicates she was raped and that she was in the bathroom at some point.Actually all we have is the statement from the DA's office that there is evidence of bruising consistent with rape - which can come from normal sex, if I recall the hoopla around the Kobe Bryant case correctly. I'm not saying she wasn't raped at some point that night, but at the rate her story and the DA's case are falling apart, I don't take it as a certainty at this point. I'll also be real curious to see if the Toxicology reports ever come out - the players weren't saying she was drunk, they were saying she was cracked out. There is a reason the DA only released one of the many e-mails seized.


I also love how DA Nifong scheduled his press conference to announce he was still going on with the case in front of a crowd at NCCU. Most of the area was/is more than eager to convict Duke and the out of state lacrosse players. Apparently pandering to the community before his election that comes up in less than a month is more important to Nifong than guilt or innocence in the case.

[JonInMiddleGA]

from the latest wire story
http://sports.myway.com/news/04112006/v4304.html
Nifong has also said he doesn't necessarily need DNA evidence to prosecute. He was calmly defiant at Tuesday's forum, attended by about 700 people on the campus of North Carolina Central University, the historically black university a few miles from Duke where the alleged victim is a student.

"The fact is that this case is proceeding the way a case should proceed," Nifong said to applause from the crowd.

That highlighted part is where I mention that Nifong is facing re-election this year, in a Democratic primary (there are no GOP candidates) that includes a white female and a black male as challenger.

Gee, would it be cynical of me to suspect that he might just be looking for some political gain by persuing this case?

[BishopMVP]

As of now, the DA hasn't been able to come up with enough evidence to press charges. He didn't even know which of the 46 players were involved in the accusers sexual assault, which is why he had them all take DNA tests.On this one point, I think that the players actually volunteered themselves for the DNA tests (and lie detector tests). I should have thought more about what that meant 2 weeks ago (ie, regardless of whether a rape occurred, these tests were going to come back negative, because someone guilty of what the dancer said would surely not be confident enough to avoid matching DNA being found).



If I knew someone who actually was sexually assaulted, I'd be more pissed off, because now there is going to be an added level of scrutiny and disbelief from people when allegations come forward.

[TroyF]

from the latest wire story
http://sports.myway.com/news/04112006/v4304.html
Nifong has also said he doesn't necessarily need DNA evidence to prosecute. He was calmly defiant at Tuesday's forum, attended by about 700 people on the campus of North Carolina Central University, the historically black university a few miles from Duke where the alleged victim is a student.

"The fact is that this case is proceeding the way a case should proceed," Nifong said to applause from the crowd.

That highlighted part is where I mention that Nifong is facing re-election this year, in a Democratic primary (there are no GOP candidates) that includes a white female and a black male as challenger.

Gee, would it be cynical of me to suspect that he might just be looking for some political gain by persuing this case?

And I love the flip flop potential of the quote.

If the case doesn't go to trial and nobody gets charged, the case is going the way it should.

If the case gots to trial, it's going the way it should.

Easy outs both ways.

[Glengoyne]

Are you seriously suggesting these do not exist?

Admissions preferences for things other than academics exist all over the place. They certainly happen for athletics in every sport at every level, at every school I've ever heard of. Not only that, but there are also financial aid preferences for non scholarship athletes. Schools won't completely abandon their standards to let an athlete in, but their applications are certainly viewed apart from the general applicant pool at the request of the athletic department.

I guess I should have added a smiley. It was more of a backhanded shot at Lacrosse.

My niece attended Penn, in the Ivy league, and there they don't have Athletic scholarships at all, as I understand it. The softball coach did mention that they would "Flag" her file because she played softball in Souther California.

[Glengoyne]

Uhh, yes--recruited athletes do catch admissions breaks. When the regular admit typically has a 1400 SAT score, the athletic department needs a few breaks to keep their teams competitive, especially at the 1-A level.

Personally, whatever you think of college admissions preferences I can respect someone who is logically consistent. For me, there really is no difference between a recruited athlete, under-represented minority, alumni kid, or tuba player. I am not opposed to any of these preferences. I hope my kids get the alumni preference. There are many people who rail against affirmative action in college admissions but clam up when confronted by the athletic admissions practices of their own favorite collegiate sports teams. I never understood why the divergent stances with regards to the different preference programs, when the net result is the same.
...



You wouldn't see me clam up. An Athlete and a talented musician bring something tangible to a university. The University wants something from those students. Those students have something tangible to offer.

Diversity is a "Touch Feely" intangible thing. Another point where the analogy breaks down is the scale of the program. A relatively small number of athletes require the "assistance" of a preference program.

[Klinglerware]

I guess I should have added a smiley. It was more of a backhanded shot at Lacrosse.

My niece attended Penn, in the Ivy league, and there they don't have Athletic scholarships at all, as I understand it. The softball coach did mention that they would "Flag" her file because she played softball in Souther California.

Fair enough.

The Ivy League admissions process for athletic recruiting is actually rather involved. It's tough to recruit at these schools because of the lack of merit-scholarships (though generous financial aid often levels the playing field a lot for lower/middle class kids) and because the regular admits tend to be ridiculously over-qualified. Recruited athletic classes have to have an academic profile that is within 1 standard deviation of the regular pool, so coaches have a hard time putting a pool of recruitable athletes together. What further engenders controversy is the fact that Ivies tend to have small undergraduate enrollments, yet they sponsor 25-30+ varsity sports. At some of the smaller schools, that could translate into as much as 15-25% of the entering class being recruited athletes (many of whom presumably would not get in if not for the admissions break).

It's a fascinating topic (at least to me). If you're interested, "Playing the Game: Inside Athletic Recruiting in the Ivy League" by Chris Lincoln provides a very good overview of the process. The student newspapers and the NY Times will also have some articles pertaining to this topic too...

[wade moore]

Fair enough.

The Ivy League admissions process for athletic recruiting is actually rather involved. It's tough to recruit at these schools because of the lack of merit-scholarships (though generous financial aid often levels the playing field a lot for lower/middle class kids) and because the regular admits tend to be ridiculously over-qualified. Recruited athletic classes have to have an academic profile that is within 1 standard deviation of the regular pool, so coaches have a hard time putting a pool of recruitable athletes together. What further engenders controversy is the fact that Ivies tend to have small undergraduate enrollments, yet they sponsor 25-30+ varsity sports. At some of the smaller schools, that could translate into as much as 15-25% of the entering class being recruited athletes (many of whom presumably would not get in if not for the admissions break).

It's a fascinating topic (at least to me). If you're interested, "Playing the Game: Inside Athletic Recruiting in the Ivy League" by Chris Lincoln provides a very good overview of the process. The student newspapers and the NY Times will also have some articles pertaining to this topic too...

While not completely on the same level, this is a challenge schools like my alma mater (William and Mary) face. They do give out athletic scholarships, but they do not bend their academic standards NEARLY as much as other programs for their athletes. I won't say they don't bend them at all, but it's definately much less significant, making athletic recruiting quite difficult.

[Klinglerware]

You wouldn't see me clam up. An Athlete and a talented musician bring something tangible to a university. The University wants something from those students. Those students have something tangible to offer.

Diversity is a "Touch Feely" intangible thing. Another point where the analogy breaks down is the scale of the program. A relatively small number of athletes require the "assistance" of a preference program.

Well, there is a difference between state schools and elite private schools. At state schools, the enrollments are huge and the number of varsity sports tend to be small, so recruits don't have a large impact on the overall academic profile.

At private schools, they sponsor more sports yet have small enrollments--you can't really say it's only a relatively small number of athletes affected. In fact, recruited athletes are about 15-25% of your freshman class, and you can't hide those numbers easily.

[Klinglerware]

While not completely on the same level, this is a challenge schools like my alma mater (William and Mary) face. They do give out athletic scholarships, but they do not bend their academic standards NEARLY as much as other programs for their athletes. I won't say they don't bend them at all, but it's definately much less significant, making athletic recruiting quite difficult.

Yes, it is especially tough for schools like Stanford, Duke, and ND. Unlike the Ivies, who have concocted rules that have evened the playing field within their league at the expense of competitiveness outside the league, Stanford et al have chosen to try to be athletically competitive at a major conference level while attempting to maintain relatively elite admissions standards. That's a pretty tough road to navigate...

[Maple Leafs]

The phone call which came from the "friend" who altered stories about walking/driving by the scene.
Has it actually been confirmed that the phone call came from the friend? I remember seeing someone (defence lawyer?) raise that theory but I never heard about it being fact.

[Samdari]

I guess I should have added a smiley. It was more of a backhanded shot at Lacrosse

Oh, it definitely needed a smiley then.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Has it actually been confirmed that the phone call came from the friend? I remember seeing someone (defence lawyer?) raise that theory but I never heard about it being fact.

I don't think so, the identity of the first phone caller remains unknown AFAIK.
Here's what looks like a pretty good timeline of the sequence of calls
http://www.wral.com/news/8392580/detail.html

[Chubby]

Gee, the DNA comes back negative and the DA is still sure they are guilty as he's stated he's still going forward with the case...

If he's so damn sure he's right, how come none of the players have been arrested yet???

It's looking more and more like she tried to take her money and run after getting turned down to be a prostitute, called the police to get back at the guys at the party.

It's also looking more and more like the DA will go forward no matter how flimsy his case is to try and help his re-election campaign.

[TroyF]

I don't think so, the identity of the first phone caller remains unknown AFAIK.
Here's what looks like a pretty good timeline of the sequence of calls
http://www.wral.com/news/8392580/detail.html


No not confirmed at all. Just fishy that the caller changed stories. If they do end up proving it was her friend the case will be closed in about ten minutes.

[WSUCougar]

Perhaps there was a second caller?

[GrantDawg]

And the problem is, you haven't seen any of this evidence in which to form your opinion....



I respect you Grant and I know where you're coming from. I'm one of those people who has had someone close to me suffer an assault. But that doesn't give you the right to assume something happened in that bedroom without the evidence to back it up.


I have seen the official court documents which the things I listed were attested to. Of course the medical examiners (more than one), the police, and the DA office could all be in a great conspiracy. I guess they all graduated from UNC and just want to give Duke a bad name.

BTW, it was a bathroom, not a bedroom.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

"BTW, it was a bathroom, not a bedroom."

That's a little cheap. By the way, it's vaginal not virginal (as mentioned in your previous posts).

None of the "official" documents (which are nothing more than one-sided unrebutted testimony) peg the lacrosse team, but only that something traumatic happened that day/night to the woman. The jury is still out so to speak. Which means the DA has to continue the investigation -- the woman did make a complaint. But, we are far, far, far away from guilt here by the lacrosse team.

[GrantDawg]

Am I supposed to believe he can now come up with enough evidence to prove beyond doubt that specific members of the team assaulted this women and that the physical evidence at the crime scene can prove it?




BTW, where in God's green earth have I even suggested that? Where have I called for an arrest? Where have I named in the rapist? Can someone please show me where in any post I have said that this case is ready for trial? I have given my OPINION. Not binding conclusions. Not "beyond reasonable doubt." What I THINK happened. Would people stop suggesting I have some how become the judge, jury and executioner here. It is not within my power, nor would this be a "case closed" situation if it were.

[GrantDawg]

"BTW, it was a bathroom, not a bedroom."

That's a little cheap. By the way, it's vaginal not virginal (as mentioned in your previous posts).

None of the "official" documents (which are nothing more than one-sided unrebutted testimony) peg the lacrosse team, but only that something traumatic happened that day/night to the woman. The jury is still out so to speak. Which means the DA has to continue the investigation -- the woman did make a complaint. But, we are far, far, far away from guilt here by the lacrosse team.

No F______ joke. Where have I suggested anything different?

[TroyF]

I have seen the official court documents which the things I listed were attested to. Of course the medical examiners (more than one), the police, and the DA office could all be in a great conspiracy. I guess they all graduated from UNC and just want to give Duke a bad name.

BTW, it was a bathroom, not a bedroom.


Grant,

Ok, bathroom.

And please stop with the patronizing. I have NEVER hinted that it's a great conspiracy. I think everyone is doing their jobs. And I'm sure they are all doing a high quality job.

But that doesn't mean there aren't issues with any of them either. For example, did the bruising and cuts she showed play a part in the medical examiners belief? If those bruises and cuts show up on the photos of her while she's performing, does that alter their opinion?

I F'n hate Duke. Despise them. And these lacrosse players? Most of em are jack asses. Having a party when half your F'n team already has alcohol priors? Moronic. The e-mail? Disgusting. The dirtbag deserves to be off campus for good.

But we aren't talking about underage drinking or disgusting e-mails here. We are talking RAPE. And in a rape case, you need evidence to back up the claims. The lack of DNA evidence alone makes for a ridiculously tough case. 46 guys tested and they can't find a trace of their DNA anywhere on her. Not in her fingernails, on her property, fluids, latex. Nothing.

If those pictures are real and she showed up with bruises and cuts prior to the alleged assault, that's a second strike to overcome. We only need reasonable doubt here. How are they going to prove this case now?

The police are doing their due dilligence and for that I'm glad. I would love to see the truth about this come out one way or the other. But as of now, I haven't seen anything to make me believe they have a case.

As for my opinion if anything happened? I have ZERO idea. I said so above. I don't know and I'm not going to guess either way. I'm not calling the girl a ho. I'm not saying the players are angels. But do I think with what's came out the prosecution has a case? No. I think they are in a world of hurt.