Farmers are what's wrong with America

[AENeuman]

I’m reading “Cadillac Desert” about the history of water in the West. And I now realize (Western) farmers are the most un-American people in the country.

Of course when I say farmers I mean giant corporations who most of the farm land in the West. But between the subsidies given to them by the government AND their dependence on illegal underpaid labor they are responsible for much of our countries problems, namely a welfare state.

The farmers (along with the congressmen who are equal bloodsuckers) have convinced the Federal government to pay them to grow stuff in places food should never grow. The average farmer pays back 5 cents of every government dollar spent on them.

The problem is there is no reason to have many of these giant corporate farms. In places like Utah, Arizona, Montana, Idaho and Colorado where the average rain is less than a foot we don’t need them. But instead the gov has spent billions to get water to them so they can grow a crop that will never make up for the money spent. And the gov’s reaction is giving MORE tax cuts, not saying it is unreasonable and unnecessary to keep high desert alfalfa farmers afloat.

I don’t know much, but I would guess the money we (tax payers) spend on health care for illegals is nowhere near the money we have spent on farming subsidies.

[Franklinnoble]

Have you ever been grocery shopping in Europe? I'm skeptical of some of these practices as well, but I like the cheap food prices we enjoy.

[Crapshoot]

I don’t know much, but I would guess the money we (tax payers) spend on health care for illegals is nowhere near the money we have spent on farming subsidies.

it isn't - not even close. American subsidies cost consumers at least $30-40 billlion a year in straight giveaways, not to mention the effects of the higher prices you pay due to the lack of free trade on food.

[BishopMVP]

it isn't - not even close. American subsidies cost consumers at least $30-40 billlion a year in straight giveaways, not to mention the effects of the higher prices you pay due to the lack of free trade on food.Add in the crippling effects on third-world agricultural economies (primarily Africa) and the increase in foreign aid that leads to, which is primarily then stolen by elites and comes back into our country in treasury bonds and the stock market while you are at it.


Seriously - But, but, what about the American way of life? And the family farm? God I hate our political system, and the electorate that is too blind to see what goes on.

[st.cronin]

This is one area that I've done a little bit of half-assed research into, and I have no idea what to think. It seems like it works, so I would be against any sort of reform.

[sabotai]

This is one area that I've done a little bit of half-assed research into, and I have no idea what to think. It seems like it works, so I would be against any sort of reform.

You are now my arch-enemy. :D

[Crapshoot]

Add in the crippling effects on third-world agricultural economies (primarily Africa) and the increase in foreign aid that leads to, which is primarily then stolen by elites and comes back into our country in treasury bonds and the stock market while you are at it.


Seriously - But, but, what about the American way of life? And the family farm? God I hate our political system, and the electorate that is too blind to see what goes on.

Africa is an amazing place man - living there was an experience. ANd yeah, I didnt mention the fact that farm lobbies ruin the abilities of Africa to take advantage of its one competitive advantage - agriculture.

That being said, foreign aid (total) is about $16 billion a year - which includes aids to the Israeli's - its not a big deal. If you offered every African country free access to American markets instead of foreign aid, most would probably take it.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Have you ever been grocery shopping in Europe? I'm skeptical of some of these practices as well, but I like the cheap food prices we enjoy.

Huzzah for communism! Let's have the government take our money and give it to farmers so that they can sell us food under market price. Brilliant! We should do that for every industry, we wouldn't have to pay market price for anything! Why hasn't someone thought of this?

[ISiddiqui]

Agg subsidies are some of the worst boondoggles this country has going. Its all just for votes, and its out in the open, but for some reason the rest of us just let it keep going. Let them try to make money the old fashioned way... by the market!

And since the government actually pays farmers NOT to grow too much (to avoid market oversaturation), we actually pay more for agg products.

[Franklinnoble]

Huzzah for communism! Let's have the government take our money and give it to farmers so that they can sell us food under market price. Brilliant! We should do that for every industry, we wouldn't have to pay market price for anything! Why hasn't someone thought of this?

Yeah, like I said, it sort of bothers me on principle, but my wallet says "shut up and enjoy the cheap lunch."

[AENeuman]

Have you ever been grocery shopping in Europe? I'm skeptical of some of these practices as well, but I like the cheap food prices we enjoy.

I would say that would be true for California products, with their year round growing season. But why pay Colorado, Utah, Wyoming to grow inferior wheat and grains during their short and dry 5 month growing season? There are plenty of places in the US (east of the 100th merdian) that can grow the stuff cheaper and better

[Franklinnoble]

I would say that would be true for California products, with their year round growing season. But why pay Colorado, Utah, Wyoming to grow inferior wheat and grains during their short and dry 5 month growing season? There are plenty of places in the US (east of the 100th merdian) that can grow the stuff cheaper and better

True... my entire adult life has been spent in California and Arizona, where produce is grown all year, so my viewpoint might be a little off.

[BishopMVP]

Africa is an amazing place man - living there was an experience. And yeah, I didnt mention the fact that farm lobbies ruin the abilities of Africa to take advantage of its one competitive advantage - agriculture.Even more so the EU countries, but we're far from blameless.That being said, foreign aid (total) is about $16 billion a year - which includes aids to the Israeli's - its not a big deal.It's not just direct government to government aid, but also indirect through World Bank and IMF loans, which are almost guaranteed to do more to cripple an economy under debt servicing and corruption than help the people if they're not defaulted on; and all the public (through the UN) and private humanitarian aid (like Bill Gates' charity) to try and alleviate problems that the governments ignore.If you offered every African country free access to American markets instead of foreign aid, most would probably take it.I have no doubt this is true (along with Latin American countries, particularly Brazil.) Same thing with textiles and South Asia, where quotas by country kill the free market.

[Marc Vaughan]

Have you ever been grocery shopping in Europe? I'm skeptical of some of these practices as well, but I like the cheap food prices we enjoy.

LOL :D

Luxuries are cheaper in America on average, but healthy food I have always found much cheaper in England (as are general necessities such as baby nappies etc.).

Snack food and such like is much cheaper in America, however I already eat too much of that ;)

[lungs]

Well, I'll be considered a farmer when I graduate from college here in a few months. Dairy farmer specifically. The subsidies we usually receieve as dairy farmers are pretty miniscule, in the grand scheme of things.

The operation I will be moving into does employ Hispanic labor as does a large portion of dairy farms not run entirely on family labor. Any farm I've seen that tried to function entirely on local American labor has ultimately gone to Hispanic labor. And these are not large corporations by any means. Factory work and construction work is more desirable to the local labor force due to the fact that factories don't necessarily need to be running 24/7 like a lot of farms do. It's a different type of work and any local workers that do work on farms tend to be more skilled machine operators or management.

[Young Drachma]

I would say that would be true for California products, with their year round growing season. But why pay Colorado, Utah, Wyoming to grow inferior wheat and grains during their short and dry 5 month growing season? There are plenty of places in the US (east of the 100th merdian) that can grow the stuff cheaper and better

Yup. Wyoming is the welfare state personfied in the form of corporate patronage. Hell, that's why the state was founded in the first place. It has no real identity beyond the myth of the prosperous rancher and how big agriculture is here..when that's just not true.

[Franklinnoble]

LOL :D

Luxuries are cheaper in America on average, but healthy food I have always found much cheaper in England (as are general necessities such as baby nappies etc.).

Snack food and such like is much cheaper in America, however I already eat too much of that ;)

Really? That wasn't my experience when I was in London. I think I paid 2 bucks for a bananna over there.

[ISiddiqui]

Really? That wasn't my experience when I was in London. I think I paid 2 bucks for a bananna over there.

Well think about where you are... Bananas don't really grow that close to Northern European states, whereas in the US, we have a very easy conduit to banana growing companies.

[Warhammer]

My problem with the subsidies is that it makes the farmers stupid, for lack of a better term.

I sell to well drillers who sell to farmers, and it absolutely astonishes me the business decisions they make because all of them are out to make a quick buck now. Then they bitch and moan when prices go up for a $4000 pump, yet each year they get new grain bins, a new pickup truck, and fly the family to Orlando for 2 weeks. Buying fun stuff is no problem, buying something that will make the farm more productive? Are you kidding?

[lungs]

My problem with the subsidies is that it makes the farmers stupid, for lack of a better term.

I sell to well drillers who sell to farmers, and it absolutely astonishes me the business decisions they make because all of them are out to make a quick buck now. Then they bitch and moan when prices go up for a $4000 pump, yet each year they get new grain bins, a new pickup truck, and fly the family to Orlando for 2 weeks. Buying fun stuff is no problem, buying something that will make the farm more productive? Are you kidding?

That is astonishing considering the tax write offs that are possible when making capital purchases.

[Warhammer]

That is astonishing considering the tax write offs that are possible when making capital purchases.

These guys will buy a new well, tell the driller to move the old pump to the new well (which the old pump does not pump as well due to wear and use). The new well does not operate at full capacity due to the old pump, so they buy a new pump for their old well. The new pump operates over the capacity of the old well, which collapses the well. So then these clowns buy a second new pump and new well to replace the stuff that broke since they were trying to save money. In the end, they pay twice as much because they were trying to nickel and dime everything. This happens every single year!

[Buccaneer]

bro, I think you need to travel through Colorado and Wyoming more. There is very little irrigated agricultural areas in these two states. The only large-scale (and that's relative) irrigated farming areas in Colorado are along the Arkansas River east of Pueblo and San Luis Valley, which is sitting on top of a huge aquifer. You could also count the wheat farms in Weld Co and vicinity but they are not large scale. Cattle and sheep what dominates that rural lands of Colorado and Wyoming, not irrigated farm lands.

[AENeuman]

bro, I think you need to travel through Colorado and Wyoming more. There is very little irrigated agricultural areas in these two states. The only large-scale (and that's relative) irrigated farming areas in Colorado are along the Arkansas River east of Pueblo and San Luis Valley, which is sitting on top of a huge aquifer. You could also count the wheat farms in Weld Co and vicinity but they are not large scale. Cattle and sheep what dominates that rural lands of Colorado and Wyoming, not irrigated farm lands.

Yeah, livestock counts too. From what the book says colorado uses irrigated water for its cows. "you need seven or eight feet of water in the hot deserts to keep grass alive, which means that you need almost fifty thousand pounds of water to raise one pound of cow."

also, "In colorado, the alfalfa crop is worth a couple hundred million dollars a year, while tourism is worth about 5 billion a year. To raise alfalfa, you need to have a dam, dewater, and otherwise destroy the rivers that many of the tourist come to fish, to raft, or simply to see. The hydroelectricty that could be generated down river (not in the upper basin) by water used to raise alfalfa is potentially worth more than the crop.

[Buccaneer]

Understood, I had thought it was focusing on croplands.