Cities that deserve a major league sports franchise

[Young Drachma]

Ok..

With all the talk about Ahnold wanting two NFL teams in LA, with MLB seeking out a new city to blackmail for the Marlins and the NBA thinking of leaving N'awlins high and dry.....I wonder, what cities would make good cities in the four major sports?

Even if your selection is a little far-fetched, let's hear it anyway.

[Cards4ever]

I believe Las Vegas will eventually end up with a team of some kind.

[Joe]

Mobile, AL

[Young Drachma]

It would never happen, but, if there were a major league sport in Wyoming - not baseball - but either hockey or football, fans would go to every game.

Hell, Billings, Montana sells out Junior "A" hockey games. I'm talking a 6,000+ arena. Don't underestimate the fans in bad places that no one lives.

I think the bigger issue is how much money is generated by TV revenue that you clearly can't put teams in "bad" markets anymore, because it affects TV deals. Though, with satellite and the fact that owners keep picking pretty crappy places to locate their teams (read: the NHL and recently, the NBA) it's not that crazy to me that there are cities that should have teams and being ignored for one reason or another.

But more serious choices?

MLB in New Jersey. Sure, the Boss will throw a fit. But, he can't claim the entire state. That's unprecedented, though of course, no one has tried to do it.

Put the stadium someplace in an actual city or somewhere in the burbs and folks will support them like crazy. If they were in the Meadowlands, then of course there would be a gripe. But the Dodgers almost moved to Jersey before their deal to LA was finalized, so....it's not as if it hasn't been considered before.

Or if not, Brooklyn. :)

[Young Drachma]

Mobile, AL

In what sport? Hockey? Basketball?

[Joe]

yeah basketball. give em the hornets

[larrymcg421]

Orlando has a basketball team, but they deserve alot more than that. They'd be a better NFL city than Jacksonville and a better MLB city than Miami or Tampa Bay.

[Galaxy]

Birmingham, AL-Football.

[Young Drachma]

Birmingham, AL-Football.
WLAF, baby!

[samifan24]

I think they should put an NHL team back in Hartford. Who's with me? :D

[Young Drachma]

I think they should put an NHL team back in Hartford. Who's with me? :D

Agreed. I have such a hard time with this whole Carolina hockey madness. I mean, if they'd moved them to Canada, it'd be one thing. But freakin' basketball country?

[RendeR]

Portland, OR - NFL
Cincinnati, OH - NHL
Buffalo, NY - MLB
Las Vegas, NV - MLB NFL NHL
Seattle, WA - NHL

there are tons really...you could make an argument for almost anyplace.

Some may note a lack of NBA designations in my list. This is due to my complete and utter disdain of the NBA. I wouldn't blink twice if it folded tomorrow.

[Galaxy]

I think they should put an NHL team back in Hartford. Who's with me? :D
And Quebec City and Winnipeg.

[st.cronin]

Albuquerque

[duckman]

Oklahoma City, OK - NBA, NFL, or NHL

[Galaxy]

Portland, OR - NFL
Cincinnati, OH - NHL
Buffalo, NY - MLB
Las Vegas, NV - MLB NFL NHL
Seattle, WA - NHL

there are tons really...you could make an argument for almost anyplace.

Some may note a lack of NBA designations in my list. This is due to my complete and utter disdain of the NBA. I wouldn't blink twice if it folded tomorrow.

Buffalo, a MLB team? That would a financial mess.

[samifan24]

And Quebec City and Winnipeg.

Winnipeg for sure. I haven't heard much about Quebec City. Is there much of an effort on the city's part to bring a team back? I know here in Connecticut Howard Baldwin is once again spearheading a campaign to bring a team to the state.

There was even some talk of taking the existing AHL team structure and build on that foundation to create the infastructure of an NHL front office first.

[Pumpy Tudors]

comedy kansas city option

[Young Drachma]

comedy kansas city option

Aren't they trying to get an NHL team with that new arena they're putting up?

[cartman]

San Antonio. 8th or 9th biggest city in the country, all they have is the Spurs.

[Sublime 2]

I'd love an NHL team in Manchester, NH. Well I'd like anything in the NuH but I figured hockey has the best chance.

[samifan24]

I'd love an NHL team in Manchester, NH. Well I'd like anything in the NuH but I figured hockey has the best chance.

What kind of support do the Monarchs get?

[sooner333]

Oklahoma City, OK - NBA, NFL, or NHL


I hope its just an NBA team, I don't think hockey would be as successful, and I don't think OKC would warm up to an NFL team as much due to college football.

[ISiddiqui]

San Antonio. 8th or 9th biggest city in the country, all they have is the Spurs.

But 29th most populous metropolitan area... under Orlando and Portland, Oregon (which I think should have another team)

[sterlingice]

Aren't they trying to get an NHL team with that new arena they're putting up?

The company that helped fund the new arena is looking to get either an NHL or NBA team there.

SI

[Fonzie]

I'd love to see a professional football team in Detroit.

[Masked]

San Jose, MLB - why not just move the small market A's into a the 9th largest city in the country, keeping them in the same region, and give them a much larger corporate base? (Yeah, I hate the Giants)

[larrymcg421]

I'd love to see a professional football team in Detroit.

Too easy.

[molson]

I'd love to see a 3rd MLB team in NYC - preferably in Brooklyn. NYC can support it, it'd take the Yanks and Mets down a peg, everybody wins.

[ISiddiqui]

Screw Brooklyn. Put it in Newark or something.

[Young Drachma]

Screw Brooklyn. Put it in Newark or something.

With the Devils (and probably the Nets, no way that arena gets built in Brooklyn) heading there, and with Red Bullshit NY across the river in Harrison in a few years, this actually isn't a terrible idea. Though some ignorant asshole politician will say no one will go to Newark to see a sporting event.

Nevermind the NJ Performing Arts Center has been there over a decade. I've been hit by bums asking for money a lot more in Boston and in Denver, than I ever have in Newark.

[ISiddiqui]

And Newark is on the NJ Transit line. Just put a shuttle from Newark's Penn Station to any stadium.

[Young Drachma]

And Newark is on the NJ Transit line. Just put a shuttle from Newark's Penn Station to any stadium.

Yeah, better than the meadowlands.

[SFL Cat]

Louisville, Kentucky -- NBA. The city was robbed by the ABA/NBA merger. The Colonels were consistently one of the best ABA teams.

Oklahoma City, Oklahoma -- NFL. I don't think an NBA, NHL or MLB would do all that well. But Oklahoma is where football is king and I think an NFL team would probably do pretty well. Only question would be is their enough corporate dollars in OKC to support a pro team?

Las Vegas, Nevada -- NFL, MLB. I think its gambling reputation has hurt its chances for landing a pro sport franchise in one of the major big leagues. However, I think either an NFL or MLB team would probably do well in Sin City.

Birmingham, Alabama -- NFL. Not as much of a big-league city as it once was. But a NFL team playing at a refurbished Legion Field would be cool.

Orlando, Florida -- NFL, MLB. Probably the best sports town in Florida.

Portland, Oregon -- MLB, maybe NFL. Doesn't really strike me as much of a football city (although a rivalry with the Seahawks would be fun), but they seem hellbent to get a MLB team.

A regional NFL, NHL, or NBA team in Wyoming/Idaho might do well as far as getting fans in the stadium. Obviously the TV markets won't have any of the major leagues fighting to claim a stake there.

[ISiddiqui]

I think Charlotte would be a good site for a MLB team. Or Raleigh. Carolinians would manage to support a pro baseball team well.

[stevew]

I can't believe the Carolina triangle does not have a pro baseball team. Also I thought Norfolk VA area had a pretty good plan in place for basketball a few years back when the hornets were looking to move.

Realistically, how many NFL teams could there be before they would cannibalize revenue? I'd think they could add at least 4 more teams, if not more.

[stevew]

Went into the other room to get a snack, mid post, and Isiddiqui steals my idea. :)

[ISiddiqui]

HA HA!

I sneak! ;)

Actually I think Raliegh would be better than Charlotte... Charlotte may be considered too close to Atlanta (though it is about 230 miles away) and Raleigh is more of a midway point between Atlanta and Washington.

[rjolley]

Oklahoma City, Oklahoma -- NFL. I don't think an NBA, NHL or MLB would do all that well. But Oklahoma is where football is king and I think an NFL team would probably do pretty well. Only question would be is their enough corporate dollars in OKC to support a pro team?

I thought the Hornets did well there this year...well enough for OKC to be considered for a new team...

[Franklinnoble]

I think San Jose will end up with the A's, and that will be a good fit.

[Young Drachma]

Portland, Oregon -- MLB, maybe NFL. Doesn't really strike me as much of a football city (although a rivalry with the Seahawks would be fun), but they seem hellbent to get a MLB team.



Folks in Portland were pretty opposed to MLB when I was there a few years ago. Especially political interests there that can't seem to agree on much of anything. I think the best thing they can hope for is an MLS franchise and perhaps hockey. But that's it. They packed that stadium downtown for a women's soccer exhibition match against some obscure opponent, so I've long thought they were a good soccer city, just given the suburban nature of a lot of the population there.

[Sublime 2]

What kind of support do the Monarchs get?

The support isn't that bad, but I'd say the college hockey gets a lot more support (Dartmouth and UNH). If those people who went to the college games plus the people who went to the Monarchs games plus "new fans" that would come to watch NHL games, I think would equal a good turnout. But then again being so close to Boston is always a downside.

[Suburban Rhythm]

The company that helped fund the new arena is looking to get either an NHL or NBA team there.

SI

The leading candidate if this whole arena mess doesn't work out for the Pens. It sure looks like something will happen now...but I won't truly believe it until they start digging...

[clintl]

Based on support for the River Cats, if the A's ever left Oakland, I think Sacramento would be a viable MLB market. However, I think it would be tough with the A's in Oakland.

[Wolfpack]

I think Charlotte would be a good site for a MLB team. Or Raleigh. Carolinians would manage to support a pro baseball team well.

The major problem with MLB in North Carolina is the fact that the population just isn't dense enough for an 81-game schedule. When Don Beaver attempted to buy the Twins and move them to North Carolina a few years back, he wanted to put the team in Greensboro because it was halfway between Raleigh and Charlotte and therefore could draw on all three major population centers in North Carolina. Each of them (Triangle, Triad, Charlotte) have about a million or more people, which together might do it, but not one by themselves. It's also not like the other three sports in that baseball has lots of afternoon weekday games, the kinds that a major density city can still get 20-25,000 to without trouble. People aren't going to take days off in NC (particularly if it's a hot, humid summer day) to drive upwards of two hours to watch baseball (sacrificing time off or money in the process). That I think is what harms the chances in NC more than anything.

Besides, just about everyone in the area is a Braves fan anyway, so they really don't miss not having a team in the area.

[Logan]

Yeah, better than the meadowlands.

Do you guys think another team in NJ could really develop enough true fans to support a franchise? I mean, people are pretty set in their support of either the Mets or Yankees. Although, maybe a new team could prey on those few jackasses who actually consider themselves fans of BOTH teams :mad: .

[Ramzavail]

Do you guys think another team in NJ could really develop enough true fans to support a franchise? I mean, people are pretty set in their support of either the Mets or Yankees. Although, maybe a new team could prey on those few jackasses who actually consider themselves fans of BOTH teams :mad: .

I don't think baseball in NJ would work. Basketball and Hockey doesn't work and there's enough Met and Yankee fans that would never go see a NJ Swamp Dragon's baseball game no matter who they suckered into playing baseball in New Jersey.

[Toddzilla]

On the flip side, get rid of all the teams in Miami and Atlanta. Two of the worst sports cities in the country.

[SFL Cat]

In Miami that is true if you are NOT THE MIAMI DOLPHINS AND/OR NOT WINNING.

[KevinNU7]

I think Vegas will eventually get a basketball team and once they do you'll see baseball a few years later. I don't think the NFL will ever go for it and I could see the NHL consdiering it from a marketing standpoint.

[Maple Leafs]

Toronto could probably be a decent NFL town if they had the right stadium.

[albionmoonlight]

The major problem with MLB in North Carolina is the fact that the population just isn't dense enough for an 81-game schedule. When Don Beaver attempted to buy the Twins and move them to North Carolina a few years back, he wanted to put the team in Greensboro because it was halfway between Raleigh and Charlotte and therefore could draw on all three major population centers in North Carolina. Each of them (Triangle, Triad, Charlotte) have about a million or more people, which together might do it, but not one by themselves. It's also not like the other three sports in that baseball has lots of afternoon weekday games, the kinds that a major density city can still get 20-25,000 to without trouble. People aren't going to take days off in NC (particularly if it's a hot, humid summer day) to drive upwards of two hours to watch baseball (sacrificing time off or money in the process). That I think is what harms the chances in NC more than anything.

Besides, just about everyone in the area is a Braves fan anyway, so they really don't miss not having a team in the area.

And the Durham Bulls seem to take some of the edge off the baseball fix for people up here, too. I don't know if it makes sense to move a minor league team that's doing so well in favor of a MLB team that will have some logistical problems filling the stadium.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think baseball in NJ would work. Basketball and Hockey doesn't work and there's enough Met and Yankee fans that would never go see a NJ Swamp Dragon's baseball game no matter who they suckered into playing baseball in New Jersey.

Basketball and Hockey don't work in NJ?

[ISiddiqui]

On the flip side, get rid of all the teams in Miami and Atlanta. Two of the worst sports cities in the country.

re: Atlanta, aside from the Braves' attendance problems in the playoffs, what is the problem with the Falcons & Thrashers, who sell a lot of tickets. The Hawks don't, but they suck. When (if?) they get good, they'll sell out.

[SFL Cat]

Toronto could probably be a decent NFL town if they had the right stadium.

Anyone ever hear rumors that the NFL was thinking about buying the CFL?

[Daimyo]

re: Atlanta, aside from the Braves' attendance problems in the playoffs, what is the problem with the Falcons & Thrashers, who sell a lot of tickets. The Hawks don't, but they suck. When (if?) they get good, they'll sell out.
I'm pretty sure the Hawks didn't sell out in ~94 when they were the best team in the Eastern conference. I don't think they even sold out their playoff games.

Falcons sell out, but they have Vick so that doesn't really count. :)

[Young Drachma]

Do you guys think another team in NJ could really develop enough true fans to support a franchise? I mean, people are pretty set in their support of either the Mets or Yankees. Although, maybe a new team could prey on those few jackasses who actually consider themselves fans of BOTH teams :mad: .

The whole "everyone is Jersey is a NY Sports Fan" is true to a certain extent, but it's that way by default.

I mean, for a long time, the Devils and Nets stunk and that made it a lot easier. But now that they're good, the Meadowlands, when people can get there is as loud a place as any...but it's inaccessible and always have been, because it was developed to woo NY sports teams, not meant for Jersey fans wanting to come to games.

The fact that minor league baseball has thrived there, I mean, growing up there were no teams there and now, the times did a story and showed that there are, several affiliated and tons of independent leagues in that region that thrive. The Atlantic League, probably the best independent league out there right now, was started primarily by a car dealer from Jersey, almost all of their teams have new ballparks and people pack their stadiums....so...

I have no doubt the fan base is there. This is a region that used to have four teams back in the day, no counting all of those Negro League teams that drew well, too, and now, there are just two primarily. I have no doubt that fans would embrace a Jersey team, especially if they were any good.

[Young Drachma]

I don't think baseball in NJ would work. Basketball and Hockey doesn't work and there's enough Met and Yankee fans that would never go see a NJ Swamp Dragon's baseball game no matter who they suckered into playing baseball in New Jersey.

Not true.

The Meadowlands is closer to Manhattan than most of Jersey. And it's not on the NJ Transit rail lines, though most of the state is. And the town people up there were adamantly against a rail line to the Meadowlands and I forget their rationale.

So...that's why no one goes to games, not because they're not fans.

Football games are easy to pack out in the sense that there aren't many home games and its just once a week on a weekend usually.

Hockey and Basketball happen all during the week and no one is going to take a road trip to that place just to go see the Nets or Devils when they have to go to work the next day.

The Newark Arena, all jokes aside, will work wonders for the Devils (and the Nets, because that Arena in Brooklyn is a pipe dream) and people in the media and New Yorkers can stop spreading the lie that folks in Jersey only like New York sports, because it's bullshit.

Who WOULDN'T want their own teams?

Did you see the stink raised when the Metrostars changed their name, to the point where the guy who RUNS the Meadowlands said he wouldn't let them play there, with New York in their name. The Giants and Jets get a pass, but when the Flyers wanted to build an arena in Jersey before finally settling upon the one they have now, Governor Whitman at the time wouldn't allow the thing to get built, because they wouldn't change their names (nor should they have, FYI..)

Jersey folks care a lot more than people realize.

[Logan]

The whole "everyone is Jersey is a NY Sports Fan" is true to a certain extent, but it's that way by default.

I mean, for a long time, the Devils and Nets stunk and that made it a lot easier. But now that they're good, the Meadowlands, when people can get there is as loud a place as any...but it's inaccessible and always have been, because it was developed to woo NY sports teams, not meant for Jersey fans wanting to come to games.

The fact that minor league baseball has thrived there, I mean, growing up there were no teams there and now, the times did a story and showed that there are, several affiliated and tons of independent leagues in that region that thrive. The Atlantic League, probably the best independent league out there right now, was started primarily by a car dealer from Jersey, almost all of their teams have new ballparks and people pack their stadiums....so...

I have no doubt the fan base is there. This is a region that used to have four teams back in the day, no counting all of those Negro League teams that drew well, too, and now, there are just two primarily. I have no doubt that fans would embrace a Jersey team, especially if they were any good.

I agree with all of what you're saying about how the fans are there for the Nets and Devils, but they just need a better way to actually get to the games. But for baseball, my point was that the great majority already have a stake in one of the NY teams, so why would they shift their loyalties? Maybe some would, if the team is very close, but I don't think it will be enough to get an entire fanbase.

[Young Drachma]

I agree with all of what you're saying about how the fans are there for the Nets and Devils, but they just need a better way to actually get to the games. But for baseball, my point was that the great majority already have a stake in one of the NY teams, so why would they shift their loyalties? Maybe some would, if the team is very close, but I don't think it will be enough to get an entire fanbase.

The Newark arena is under construction and will solve the Devils (and Nets) attendance issues.

If the team was somewhere in central jersey...there would be a big enough fanbase to make it work. A team in Newark, yes, would be a hard sell. But if they were in the AL East, I think in a generation, you'd have a fanbase.

Hell, you could even put the team near the shore if you wanted (dangerous, I guess because of the every-so-often hurricanes) but...if the team was somewhere that folks only go to New York City on occasion or to work and that's it, then..that's the fan base you want. Not the New York transplants who live in Hoboken or Jersey City someplace.

Central Jersey seems to make the most sense to me, but its largely suburban, though highly accessible on the trains, etc, as well as the highway.

If it were in the city, folks are going to be less likely to go to games by and large. Plus, part of the opposition to the Newark Arena was the fact that folks in the southern part of the state feel like all the money goes up north. Putting the team near Philly would never work, though, so it'd have to be somewhere away from both.

Where the Somerset Patriots play now, is the middle of nowhere, but that could be okay.

An actual good idea, would be where the Brooklyn Dodgers almost moved before the LA deal work itself out. The area was originally called New Brooklyn (hence the tie), but...the land where they could put the ballpark is a mall, though it's not really a mall anymore, other than a K-Mart and a few other things, but it's got enough parking and all to work for a ballpark, though not as much as it used to.

It would still work okay, I think. Though a shoreside stadium would be pretty cool and more fun to hit homers into than McCovey Cove. ;)

[Logan]

The only area in Central Jersey that I could see it working is Princeton. Higher incomes, stop on the NJT line. Only problem is route 1. Oh god.

[AlexB]

Portland, OR - NFL
Cincinnati, OH - NHL
Buffalo, NY - MLB
Las Vegas, NV - MLB NFL NHL
Seattle, WA - NHL

there are tons really...you could make an argument for almost anyplace.

Some may note a lack of NBA designations in my list. This is due to my complete and utter disdain of the NBA. I wouldn't blink twice if it folded tomorrow.

I think they deserve a football team before they get a baseball team ;)

[ISiddiqui]

I agree with all of what you're saying about how the fans are there for the Nets and Devils, but they just need a better way to actually get to the games. But for baseball, my point was that the great majority already have a stake in one of the NY teams, so why would they shift their loyalties? Maybe some would, if the team is very close, but I don't think it will be enough to get an entire fanbase.

Couldn't that be the same rationale for why put a hockey team in Jersey when you have the Rangers and Islanders in NY/Long Island and the Flyers in Philly? And the Devs have carved out a pretty good fanbase in Jersey. Winning those three cups didn't hurt, of course ;).

[Maple Leafs]

Toronto could probably be a decent NFL town if they had the right stadium.
Oh, by the way, time for my regularly scheduled message to Jim: Put cities like Toronto in the next FOF, dammit! We're quite possibly getting an NFL team before Tickle-my-Scrot, Nebraska.

[SFL Cat]

Oh, by the way, time for my regularly scheduled message to Jim: Put cities like Toronto in the next FOF, dammit! We're quite possibly getting an NFL team before Tickle-my-Scrot, Nebraska.

The Nebraska Bulls, baby!!! Watch for 'em!!!!

Seriously though, I think the last time someone tried to put an American Football team in Canada (Toronto of the WFL), the Canadian Parliament got together and passed a law outlawing it, forcing the team to move to Memphis, Tennessee.

*edit* -- never mind, I forgot about Montreal in the American version of NFL Europe.

[Young Drachma]

The only area in Central Jersey that I could see it working is Princeton. Higher incomes, stop on the NJT line. Only problem is route 1. Oh god.

Where I was talking in S. Plainfield isn't far from Route 1, but far enough away that you wouldn't have to deal with it. It's right off 287, too.


I'm talking this area, specifically:

Edison, NJ Metropolitan Division (2,291,394)

Middlesex County (785,095)
Monmouth County (636,298)
Ocean County (553,251)
Somerset County (316,750)

But part of this area, too would count towards where the team would draw from, given the way the trains are connected, etc.

Newark-Union, NJ-PA Metropolitan Division (2,152,895)
Essex County, NJ (796,684)
Union County, NJ (531,957)
Morris County, NJ (488,173)
Sussex County, NJ (152,218)
Hunterdon County, NJ (129,746)
Pike County, PA (54,117)


That's a pretty sizeable population for Steinbrenner to think he can just annex.

[Logan]

One of my offices is in Edison at Metropark. Definitely a good area to bring in business people as there are some big companies there. Good access for NJT, and having the Parkway and Turnpike converge right by it is either a great thing, or a terrible thing, depending on traffic.

[FrogMan]

Winnipeg for sure. I haven't heard much about Quebec City. Is there much of an effort on the city's part to bring a team back? I know here in Connecticut Howard Baldwin is once again spearheading a campaign to bring a team to the state.

to answer the question simply, nope. Sure, people would love to have the Nords back but it's not gonna happen with the piece of shit arena that we have now and my understanding is that nobody will step forward and build a new one unless they have a written confirmation that the NHL is coming back, so...

FM

[Young Drachma]

The Pens are staying. OKC still seems to love the Hornets.

I was searching for something different, but...since I'm here....what about this year? MLS is talking expansion again. And with the NFL looking globally, I guess they're not as fixated on LA as they used to be.

Not that any league is talking expansion, but...if they were, where would one want to see them go this year?

[lynchjm24]

Hell, Billings, Montana sells out Junior "A" hockey games. I'm talking a 6,000+ arena. Don't underestimate the fans in bad places that no one lives.


My cousin played in that league. Some of those cities are out of their minds with it. They sold so much beer at his games it was ridiculous.

[ShaneTheMaster]

I thought the Hornets did well there this year...well enough for OKC to be considered for a new team...

New Orleans gave similar support for the hornets in their first,second year. It was a new thing. You can't really tell until you see the support later down the road.

[lynchjm24]

The A's are out of play, they are going to Fremont.

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/oakbpk.htm

[lynchjm24]

And the Devs have carved out a pretty good fanbase in Jersey. Winning those three cups didn't hurt, of course ;).

If that is a good fan base then everyone has a good fan base.

[st.cronin]

Albuquerque could probably support an NFL team. Or an MLS team, for that matter.

[sooner333]

It's pretty impressive that there's enough demand for Hornets in OKC that they are still planning to show some of the games on the Cox affiliate here and are working out a radio contract for the games. The team had to petition the NBA to waive the Mavs rights to the Oklahoma market in order to make it happen.

I think the city would support the Sonics, but it loves the Hornets.

[Young Drachma]

And if you're the owner that's already playing there, you can best believe that he wants to do his best to keep the team there, rather than going back to New Orleans.

I wonder what's going to happen with that long term.

[Buccaneer]

Albuquerque could probably support an NFL team. Or an MLS team, for that matter.

The first time you brought that up I was laughing at your funny joke. Then you said it again and now I think you are completely delusional. You do realize (or perhaps you really don't) that Albuquerque metro ranks down there with Worcester, MA and Grank Rapids, MI? Next thing you'll say is that this classic high desert city is a mountain town.

[st.cronin]

The first time you brought that up I was laughing at your funny joke. Then you said it again and now I think you are completely delusional. You do realize (or perhaps you really don't) that Albuquerque metro ranks down there with Worcester, MA and Grank Rapids, MI? Next thing you'll say is that this classic high desert city is a mountain town.

Wow, you really are a fucking dick. That's right, a fucking dick.

Albuquerque is the 33rd largest city in the US, the most educated city in the US, and one of the fastest growing. Go hate somewhere else, shithead.

[Young Drachma]

I think he's talking strictly from an economic standpoint, Albuquerque would have a hard time supporting NFL football. MLS? Sure. Maybe even hockey or the NBA.

But football would be a stretch.

I think that the city would do well to get a team. They support their college teams (UNM draws extremely well for everything) well and you're not the first person from there or who has lived there that I've heard say that the city would be a good place to support a team. Given that El Paso and West Texas is so far removed from the rest of that state, you'd draw from there too. And with some savvy marketing, perhaps parts of nearby states as well.

But it'd need to be the right sport. I think MLS would do well for markets like that. But they're too busy selling out their credibility adding teams like Chivas USA to bother with sensible plans to make a league that would survive without the need for a scheme that pays it players crap and doesn't have the sort of normal player movement that US sports fans are used to. (e.g. single-entity structure)

But anyway....carry on.

[panerd]

Wow, you really are a fucking dick. That's right, a fucking dick.

Albuquerque is the 33rd largest city in the US, the most educated city in the US, and one of the fastest growing. Go hate somewhere else, shithead.

I don't really have a horse in this argument, so don't take this the wrong way. But you have to talk metro areas when discussing population for sports team and the census figures I got doing a search have Albuquerqe 61st behine Ohama, NE and just ahead of Knoxville, TN. I would also think the highly educated (sadly) might actually be a negative in a sports argument. Again, not trying to dump on you, but the 31st seems inaccurate.

[st.cronin]

I think he's talking strictly from an economic standpoint, Albuquerque would have a hard time supporting NFL football. MLS? Sure. Maybe even hockey or the NBA.

But football would be a stretch.

I think that the city would do well to get a team. They support their college teams (UNM draws extremely well for everything) well and you're not the first person from there or who has lived there that I've heard say that the city would be a good place to support a team. Given that El Paso and West Texas is so far removed from the rest of that state, you'd draw from there too. And with some savvy marketing, perhaps parts of nearby states as well.

But it'd need to be the right sport. I think MLS would do well for markets like that. But they're too busy selling out their credibility adding teams like Chivas USA to bother with sensible plans to make a league that would survive without the need for a scheme that pays it players crap and doesn't have the sort of normal player movement that US sports fans are used to. (e.g. single-entity structure)

But anyway....carry on.


See, its possible to disagree without being a giant dick.

[st.cronin]

I don't really have a horse in this argument, so don't take this the wrong way. But you have to talk metro areas when discussing population for sports team and the census figures I got doing a search have Albuquerqe 61st behine Ohama, NE and just ahead of Knoxville, TN. I would also think the highly educated (sadly) might actually be a negative in a sports argument. Again, not trying to dump on you, but the 31st seems inaccurate.

I'm sure those are outdated, since its one of the fastest growing cities in America. At any rate its a better option for the NFL than Billings Montana.

[Blade6119]

I believe Las Vegas will eventually end up with a team of some kind.

The current news is that MLS will be the first there

[st.cronin]

Anyway I'm sorry I even entered this thread.

[Blade6119]

Ignore him cronin, go back to hating me :)

[panerd]

I'm sure those are outdated, since its one of the fastest growing cities in America. At any rate its a better option for the NFL than Billings Montana.

2006.

I get what you are saying. Albuquerque is a bigger city than most people realize. Unfortunatly there aren't many county areas in Albuquerque (and this is probably where most team's fans come from) Take here locally in St. Louis. My guess is that the city's population isn't much different than Albuquerque's, but like 1.5 million people live outside the city limits within driving distance of the games.

I am sure everyone in the city might support the team at a way higher percentage than some cities do. But selling tickets is another thing. Again a moderatly sized city like St. Louis (which is what I am familiar with so it is the only reason I am making the argument) vs. Albuquerque... St. Louis metro area has 3-4 times the fan base to draw upon. So only 1/3 as many people as Albuquerque have to buy merchandise, watch games, etc. for the two cities to be equal. Shit NYC/Boston/ LA only have to draw about 1/10 of St. Louis!

[st.cronin]

2006.

I get what you are saying. Albuquerque is a bigger city than most people realize. Unfortunatly there aren't many county areas in Albuquerque (and this is probably where most team's fans come from) Take here locally in St. Louis. My guess is that the city's population isn't much different than Albuquerque's, but like 1.5 million people live outside the city limits within driving distance of the games.

I am sure everyone in the city might support the team at a way higher percentage than some cities do. But selling tickets is another thing. Again a moderatly sized city like St. Louis (which is what I am familiar with so it is the only reason I am making the argument) vs. Albuquerque... St. Louis metro area has 3-4 times the fan base to draw upon. So only 1/3 as many people as Albuquerque have to buy merchandise, watch games, etc. for the two cities to be equal. Shit NYC/Boston/ LA only have to draw about 1/10 of St. Louis!

Well, the gist of the thread was cities like Billings Montana, OK City, Charlotte, etc. All I was saying was that here's another city that could support an NFL team. The number of cities that could support an NFL team > the number of NFL teams.

I get that there are a few other cities in America that are bigger.

[rowech]

I personally would like to see an NBA team in Cincy. It's a selfish reason but I feel it would get me at least somewhat more involved in the NBA. I'm not sure they could support it over the long haul though to be honest.

[Young Drachma]

I wasn't really serious about Billings when I said it last year. :)

[st.cronin]

I wasn't really serious about Billings when I said it last year. :)

Yeah, and I know Albuquerque's not getting an NFL franchise.

[panerd]

I personally would like to see an NBA team in Cincy. It's a selfish reason but I feel it would get me at least somewhat more involved in the NBA. I'm not sure they could support it over the long haul though to be honest.


I feel the exact same way about St. Louis. I almost wish we could trade a city our NHL team (and maybe even throw in one of our semi-pro baseball teams and whatever the fuck this pro tennis league is that I see on TV commercials all the time) for an NBA team. I am not sure I would care much about our team for the first couple of years, but it would be incredible to be able to go to games and see Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Yao Ming, Lebron, etc in person.

[sterlingice]

Of all the leagues, I think the NFL is the one that is easiest to support in a "smaller" market. Hell, I bet there are at least 50 metro areas in the country that could support one. It's much easier to get 60K into one place, once a week for 8 weeks than to get 25K+ to go somewhere 81 games a year. Just look at Knoxville or Lincoln or College Station or Tuscaloosa or Baton Rouge or any number of college stadiums that can draw 75K+ easily that are at least a couple of hours drive from a major metropolitan area.

SI

[panerd]

Of all the leagues, I think the NFL is the one that is easiest to support in a "smaller" market. Hell, I bet there are at least 50 metro areas in the country that could support one. It's much easier to get 60K into one place, once a week for 8 weeks than to get 25K+ to go somewhere 81 games a year. Just look at Knoxville or Lincoln or College Station or Tuscaloosa or Baton Rouge or any number of college stadiums that can draw 75K+ easily that are at least a couple of hours drive from a major metropolitan area.

SI

I am not sure it is fair to guess NFL support based on college support. Due to the small number of games most major college football teams have former alumni driving hundreds of miles on fall weekends to watch games of their alma mater. Not sure you can ever get that bond with a pro team. (unless of course we are talking KU football, couldn't stop self from making crack)

[stevew]

Of all the leagues, I think the NFL is the one that is easiest to support in a "smaller" market. Hell, I bet there are at least 50 metro areas in the country that could support one. It's much easier to get 60K into one place, once a week for 8 weeks than to get 25K+ to go somewhere 81 games a year. Just look at Knoxville or Lincoln or College Station or Tuscaloosa or Baton Rouge or any number of college stadiums that can draw 75K+ easily that are at least a couple of hours drive from a major metropolitan area.

SI

Yeah, I'm guessing they could add another conference of 16 teams easily....it would be sweet for relegation. I don't think that there is enough talent right now though.

[sterlingice]

I am not sure it is fair to guess NFL support based on college support. Due to the small number of games most major college football teams have former alumni driving hundreds of miles on fall weekends to watch games of their alma mater. Not sure you can ever get that bond with a pro team. (unless of course we are talking KU football, couldn't stop self from making crack)

I don't think number of games has anything to do with it. Most teams have 7 or 8 home games nowadays as practically everyone gets their 5 home games and then carts in 2 or 3 rummies.

That said, the "bond" issue is certainly a substantial one.

However, I still think a lot of small cities would be able to give a fan base that supports a team. They will lack corporate revenue for luxury boxes and the like and lack the municipal infrastructure to keep up with the "new stadium every 30 years" mentality without somewhat crippling their city. But some smaller markets already support the NFL well, much better than the 3 other sports.

SI

[Young Drachma]

I feel the exact same way about St. Louis. I almost wish we could trade a city our NHL team (and maybe even throw in one of our semi-pro baseball teams and whatever the fuck this pro tennis league is that I see on TV commercials all the time) for an NBA team. I am not sure I would care much about our team for the first couple of years, but it would be incredible to be able to go to games and see Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Yao Ming, Lebron, etc in person.

I lived in the STL metro area for four years and always wished they'd gotten an NBA team. It would be a great fit, especially now that the Blues aren't good anymore and the Rams are entrenched.

Too bad that Hornets owner didn't want to sell them back when they were leaving Charlotte.

[Young Drachma]

I don't think number of games has anything to do with it. Most teams have 7 or 8 home games nowadays as practically everyone gets their 5 home games and then carts in 2 or 3 rummies.

That said, the "bond" issue is certainly a substantial one.

However, I still think a lot of small cities would be able to give a fan base that supports a team. They will lack corporate revenue for luxury boxes and the like and lack the municipal infrastructure to keep up with the "new stadium every 30 years" mentality without somewhat crippling their city. But some smaller markets already support the NFL well, much better than the 3 other sports.

SI

Agreed. Green Bay and Jacksonville are notorious examples of one-team pro cities that would never get a look from the other major sports. And heck, Jacksonville managed to host a Super Bowl. So if that doesn't talk about how the NFL can pretty much do what it wants in terms of markets, nothing does.

Heck, all of the other leagues have two LA teams, the NFL has none and they're still the king of the rest.

Pretty crazy when you think of that.

[Young Drachma]

And probably Rochester, too.

[Blade6119]

Sorry, Vegas is well behind at least St. Louis, Philly, Cleveland, Atlanta, Phoenix, Portland, Vancouver, Milwaukee, San Jose, NY2, Detroit and San Diego for MLS possibilities at this point. Maybe they jump ahead of those, but they wouldn't be around until the 3rd wave of MLS expansion in 2012 at the earliest.

2010 is the news, Las Vegas...i was suprised too, but thats what i read

[Blade6119]

To quote:

Las Vegas Sports & Entertainment Group (LVSEG) President Mark Noorzai has been “negotiating with MLS owners and Commissioner Don Garber for three months” about placing a team in the city, according to Rob Miech of the LAS VEGAS SUN. LVSEG “hopes to build a high-tech, state-of-the-art stadium"

[Blade6119]

dola. the 2010 figure is from a seperate article on the si truth and rumors. That quote comes from sportsbusinnesdaily

[stevew]

Does MLS even register as a "major" sport with people? Honestly maybe I hang around the wrong people, but I've never heard anyone mention it ever.

[Young Drachma]

Does MLS even register as a "major" sport with people? Honestly maybe I hang around the wrong people, but I've never heard anyone mention it ever.

It's probably a mid-major sport somewhere in the rein of Arena Football. Deep pocketed owners keep otherwise niche sport in the eyes of many. Indoor Lacrosse probably in that realm too, but I'd say a step below since at least there are "major" leagues of gridiron football and soccer around the world.

So it's like the 5th major sport, if there was such a thing. Mostly because it has a TV deal and the fact that it's managed to survive a decade.

[KWhit]

Well, the gist of the thread was cities like Billings Montana, OK City, Charlotte, etc. All I was saying was that here's another city that could support an NFL team. The number of cities that could support an NFL team > the number of NFL teams.

I get that there are a few other cities in America that are bigger.


If it makes you feel any better, I had a great time at the Spearmint Rhino in Albuquerque last month.

[Buccaneer]

Albuquerque is the 33rd largest city in the US, the most educated city in the US, and one of the fastest growing.

Those are news to me. It's not even in the top 20 most educated http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/29/real_estate/brainiest_cities/index.htm, the metro area's growth is way down the list and it's about 25th in fastest growing city, according to the various lists that came out last summer.

You know I love Northern New Mexico but a little perspective (and accuracy) please before you jump on someone. I do, however, agree about MLS.

[SFL Cat]

Expansion

NFL -- Despite being frustrated in efforts to secure a new stadium, I have no doubt that LA will eventually have a NFL team. It's simply too big a TV market for the league not to have a presence there. That raises the interesting spectre of where to place a second team so the league can keep a balanced schedule. If an existing team relocates to LA, I'm sure the NFL would give special consideration to the city that was abandoned. If the LA team is a true expansion team, here are my thoughts on possible other expansion cities: Birmingham, AL; Orlando, FL; and San Antonio, TX. While the NFL will be playing regular season games in Europe, I certainly don't think we'll be seeing international expansion (even to Canada) anytime soon.

MLB -- Don't see expansion in MLB's future until they restructure revenue sharing. All the big markets have teams, and it is simply too hard for smaller markets to stay consistently competitive. We will probably see more team movement before all is said and done.

NBA -- Again, don't see expansion in this league's future, until they can regain lost prestige. At one point in the mid-to-late 80s and early 90s, the NBA was probably the second most popular professional sport in America and its growth looked unlimited. Somewhere along the way, the league has lost something (and I don't just think it was one of MJ's multiple retirements) and seems to be in a downward spiral. It certainly doesn't pull in the TV numbers like it used to do, even during the post season.

NHL -- I think the NHL should be the poster child for how to do things wrong in growing a professional sports league. The push into deep south markets was ill-advised and too fast. With the bad taste left in fans' mouths from the lockout and no major TV contract in place, I see the league contracting before expanding.

[LloydLungs]

And if you're the owner that's already playing there, you can best believe that he wants to do his best to keep the team there, rather than going back to New Orleans.

I wonder what's going to happen with that long term.

The Hornets, are, for all intents and purposes, already back in New Orleans (though they'll still be working out draft prospects in OKC this month). I think they'll do fine here, weather permitting.

New Orleans has aggressively embraced every pro team that has returned here since Katrina (besides the 25,000 season ticket waiting list for the Saints, even arena football and triple-A baseball attendance is up). Even though the Hornets took their sweet time trudging back, and everyone here has noticed how much they obviously don't want to be here, Shinn's deal with the state is set up so that the only way he can lose money here is by fielding an 18-64 team comprised of aggressively unlikeable malcontents, which is exactly what happened in 2004-05 (I guarantee you OKC wouldn't have fallen for that bunch). That's certainly not the team they'll have upon their return.

It sounds like OKC will get the Sonics, and I think they'll support them pretty well, although I have always wondered what will happen when they finally have a Mashburn-ian/Baron Davis-ian asshole to deal with (OKC has gotten a bit of a misleading taste of the NBA; for a bunch of millionaire athletes, the Hornets have a thoroughly likeable roster).

[Ryche]

I've never understood why Milwaukee does not have an NHL team, seems to be an ideal market.

Toronto seems like a logical place for an NFL team. Huge market, especially considering they would become Canada's team. Skydome would work for a stadium I would think. And of course LA should have a team.

If any of the major sports could survive in Las Vegas, I would think it would be basketball. Hockey doesn't make sense for that city and I think the gambling on NBA games is far below that for football or baseball. Oklahoma too deserves consideration with their response to the Hornets.

In baseball, they should have really just put one team in Orlando rather than two teams in substandard stadiums on the coasts. Given the economics of baseball, it's probably the hardest to find new cities that could succeed. Maybe a team could be successful in San Antonio given that city's size and the lack of competition from other sports. Otherwise, moves within existing territories, such as Newark or San Jose seem the best options.

[wade moore]

I think he's talking strictly from an economic standpoint, Albuquerque would have a hard time supporting NFL football. MLS? Sure. Maybe even hockey or the NBA.

I'm very interested in understanding why you say this about Albuquerque but you think that Wyoming can support an NFL franchise. I know you love you some Wyoming, but this just seems totally contradictory.

[duckman]

It sounds like OKC will get the Sonics, and I think they'll support them pretty well, although I have always wondered what will happen when they finally have a Mashburn-ian/Baron Davis-ian asshole to deal with (OKC has gotten a bit of a misleading taste of the NBA; for a bunch of millionaire athletes, the Hornets have a thoroughly likeable roster).

Clay Bennett seems to setting his sights on possibly moving the team somewhere other than Oklahoma City right now. He would like to put the team in Las Vegas, but Stern is blocking the move until they stop allowing betting for the sport. It could be a ploy from him to get some kind of financial deal from Oklahoma City, but Las Vegas is a much larger market with a fast-growing fan base. Personally, I would like to see the Hornets come back rather than have the Sonics because the Hornets are much closer to being a contender than the Sonics.

[Young Drachma]

I'm very interested in understanding why you say this about Albuquerque but you think that Wyoming can support an NFL franchise. I know you love you some Wyoming, but this just seems totally contradictory.

I said above I was joking. I wasn't really that serious. And when I started this thread, I was being mostly speculative. If I wanted a serious thread on economic impact of teams, etc., then I'd just do the research (I have) on potential markets myself.

And it was last year, when I hadn't seriously looked at the numbers.

It was more like "if a certain place had to hold a team, what would it be?" sort of argument. Not "gee, this is the best idea EVER!"

Because clearly it's not by any stretch of the imagination.

Though, like everyone has already said about the NFL...if any league could support teams in otherwise "non-traditional" markets, they seem to be able to pull it off successfully.

And trust me, I don't love Wyoming. I'm just here. This state has way more things to concern itself with before worrying about pro sports teams of the first order, that's for sure.

Though if I had to choose a sport to put here, it'd be the NHL followed by MLS. If the team was somewhere in Cheyenne (90 minutes frm Denver...plus a military base and a regional population that's over 300k if you count Larimer County, CO and Albany County, WY) and the sport was a warm weather sport (hence why MLS would work better...) I think folks would come out, but the TV market is so poor that they'd have to hope to get on Altitude (owned by the Avs, so good luck with that) to get any real regional TV coverage. And I'm sure the Avs claim this as their market, as would the Colorado Rapids.

Realistically, I'm far more interested in seeing MLS go to Rochester and Portland and seeing the NHL go back to Canada where it's core market is, than I am any other bully pulpit.

Baseball needs another team in the NY Metro Area, preferably in Jersey, because the territorial rights would be easier to fight. I've played with that notion a few times in dynasties, figuring that if you put the team on Jersey Shore, that it'd be easier to get fans to come out, since that's a heavily trafficked area during the height of baseball season and if you use the right town, it's more than 75 miles from Philly or NYC, plus NJ Transit links are available.

Basketball is probably neglecting some markets too.

If you subscribe to the "small school" idea of sports leagues, then you probably like that American major sports leagues are very, very small entities relatively speaking. But I tend to think that there are plenty of economic arguments for having multiple tiers of major league sports (e.g. relegation, ultimately) that would satisfy more of the country and would add a whole new dimension to sport overall.

But I realize that's a minority view and that the logistics or even the will of such a thing -- especially given how many minor leagues that are independent tend to drop like flies over time -- isn't as easy as just saying it.

[Young Drachma]

Plus, I was speaking purely from the perspective that a state with the smallest population has long supported Division I college sports. And if you've ever been to this part of the country in the winter, you'd understand what sort of commitment that is. That always made me believe that a team here would draw well.

But like you all said earlier, trying to connect college and pro sports are a tough thing given the loyalties, fickle ownership, etc., plus whether the team connects with the state and is successful.

I think it's a case by case sort of thing. Because the Packers are the giant anomaly here and always will be. Because who is to say that you couldn't replicate that sort of model in other sports if their rules provided for it?

[JeffNights]

I'd love to see a professional football team in Detroit.

LOL. Thanks I needed that.

[LloydLungs]

It could be a ploy from him to get some kind of financial deal from Oklahoma City, but Las Vegas is a much larger market with a fast-growing fan base.

I really do think he's just leveraging. When Bennett bought that team it was very hard for me to see any other resolution than the OKC Sonics. But if there is another resolution, it will be because they got an 11th hour arena deal with Washington state, not a move to Vegas.

Again weather permitting, I really believe the Hornets are in New Orleans for the long haul -- even though it's obvious Shinn much prefers Oklahoma for a number of reasons, not even necessarily financial.

[wade moore]

Plus, I was speaking purely from the perspective that a state with the smallest population has long supported Division I college sports. And if you've ever been to this part of the country in the winter, you'd understand what sort of commitment that is. That always made me believe that a team here would draw well.

But like you all said earlier, trying to connect college and pro sports are a tough thing given the loyalties, fickle ownership, etc., plus whether the team connects with the state and is successful.

I think it's a case by case sort of thing. Because the Packers are the giant anomaly here and always will be. Because who is to say that you couldn't replicate that sort of model in other sports if their rules provided for it?

I think i need to read the thread more thoroughly, caused I missed that you were only being 1/2 serious about Wyoming ;)...

Agreed with all of your points in the last two posts.

[vex]

Not sure if you've seen(care), but OU has a new sport, womens rowing. Financed by two large donors. One of them? Clay Bennett.

[theclassic]

Let's keep in mind that the Green Bay Packers played up to 3 games a season in Milwaukee for awhile. They built a strong fan base in Milwaukee. You could make a strong point that if the Green Bay Packers didn't move at least a few of their games to Milwaukee, we might be talking about the Packers, in the same way we talk about the Sheboygan Red Skins. We don't. Because in the end a small city alone can't support a team.

[Karlifornia]

The A's are out of play, they are going to Fremont.

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/oakbpk.htm

San Jose has shown interest in bringing the Athletics to a site west of their downtown. The San Jose City Council voted in December 2004 to attempt to acquire the former Del Monte cannery site on Auzerais Avenue near Interstate 280 for a stadium. However, the San Francisco Giants have territorial rights to Santa Clara County, where San Jose is located, and there has been no indication that the team would be willing to give up those rights.

Well, fuck me sideways...I was nearly a 5 minute walk from an MLB ballpark.