Most Overrated Players in Sports

[JS19]

Was just watching PTI and they mentioned the top 3, not sure who's or what list, were Jeter, Beltran, ARod. Who would you guys say are the most overrated in any sport?

As of right now I can't really pinpoint any, however the first one who comes to mind for me is Barry Zito for baseball, although I don't know if I would put him in the category of overrated, just that he struggles from time to time.

[Toddzilla]

Any Chicago Cubs pitcher

[Franklinnoble]

Current players, or historical?

[bosshogg23]

Any Chicago Cubs pitcher

Good call, Kerry Wood definitely has to be on the list.

[Swaggs]

There are a lot of different ways to classify overrated. Are they overpaid? Do they have a high name recognition without being very productive? Do they fade when the going gets tough? Did they get old/injury-prone and no longer live up to their prior expectations?

I can see Jeter and Beltran on the list, but the only way I see A-Rod on the list is if someone has some ungodly expectations for him or think that $25M a year is ridiculous (which it is, but so are all entertainment salaries). I think almost anyone would say that A-Rod is one of the top 5 offensive players in the game, which I think he is without question, so I'm not sure how you could overrate him in that regard.

I think one name I would put on the list for certain is Alfonso Soriano. He seems to have high name-value, but is not really anything exceptional.

[Deattribution]

Boxing - Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson - Both fought in the weakest heavyweight division possibly ever, yet Lewis gets called one of the best ever by some... not such a problem for Tyson, but he was obviously overrated.

Basketball - Carmelo Anthony and Kobe Bryant (though Kobe's showing major improvement this year)

Baseball - Anyone on the Yankees.

Football - Brett Favre - great QB but treated like he's untouchable even though his SB win was a decade ago. I know he has longivity thing going on, and he's been great for Green Bay but a guy like Brady (and I am not a Pats fan btw) doesn't get half the due this guy gets and he's won 3.

[Crapshoot]

Historically speaking, Nolan Ryan may be the most overrated player of all time. The guy had the highest % of HOF ballots, yet he isn't one of top 25 pitchers of all time.

[Deattribution]

Oh and if you really want to go back, Joe Namath would probably top the list.

[Logan]

The poll was of (I believe) 407 anonymous major leaguers. Jeter got 9% of the vote, and was therefore the highest vote-getter. So 91% of the league doesn't think he's overrated. Which makes the poll completely pointless.

And yes, I took all of that analysis straight from PTI.

[Ramzavail]

I don't understand the Jeter argument, pure winner, pure leader, future Hall of Famer, intangibles through the roof, I don't get it, and I'm a Met fan.

[bbor]

Sid Finch

[Mustang]

Michelle Wie

[Huckleberry]

I don't understand the Jeter argument, pure winner, pure leader, future Hall of Famer, intangibles through the roof, I don't get it, and I'm a Met fan.

That could be one of the best posts ever. Deliciously ironic.

Here's the thing: all that pablum you just posted is exactly why Jeter is overrated.

[AgustusM]

Terrell Owens - has destroyed two franchises - no matter how good he plays on the field, his other nonsense makes him a player I would NEVER want on my team

[Franklinnoble]

Historically:

* Emmitt Smith: Ran behind a mammoth offensive line on a decade's worth of great teams, and just managed not to have his career cut short by injury. Tough player, and made the most of what he had, but he was not nearly as talented as the likes of Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, etc.

* Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa: Steriods.

* Steve Young: Actually only had one year where he was any good in the playoffs. The rest of his career, he was a terrible clutch QB, and basically coasted on the fumes of the Walsh-Montana dynasty.

* Phil Jackson: Only wants to coach when he's got the best talent in the NBA at his disposal. I'd like to see him take the Atlanta Hawks and make a winner out of them.

* Deion Sanders: Blazing speed for a few years and the ability to take free agency to the best teams in the early-to-mid 90's (Dallas, SF) made him look better than he really was. Couldn't make a tackle to save his life. Wasn't so much a shut-down-CB as he was a CB who took advantage of weak QB's in the divisions he played in at the time.

[TroyF]

Boxing - Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson - Both fought in the weakest heavyweight division possibly ever, yet Lewis gets called one of the best ever by some... not such a problem for Tyson, but he was obviously overrated.

Basketball - Carmelo Anthony and Kobe Bryant (though Kobe's showing major improvement this year)

Baseball - Anyone on the Yankees.

Football - Brett Favre - great QB but treated like he's untouchable even though his SB win was a decade ago. I know he has longivity thing going on, and he's been great for Green Bay but a guy like Brady (and I am not a Pats fan btw) doesn't get half the due this guy gets and he's won 3.

As the resident melo supporter on the board, I think it's pretty tough to put him in there. If anything, he's still underrated IMHO. While people speak of the teams Kobe and James have, rarely do people mention how horrific the Nuggets are around Anthony. The guy is double and tripled every night and played at an incredibly high level for much of the season. He's also the leader of a team that went to the playoffs three straight years. (yes, they lost 4-1 each time, but they went over a decade without a single playoff appearence before that)

I think Kobe is ridiculously harsh, even before this season.

And to top it off, I can't stand the Yankees, but I find it tough to believe guys like Mariano Rivera, Alex Rodriguez, or even Derek Jeter are overrated. Jeter is now approaching 2,000 hits at the age of 31. He's played in 23 post season series and hit .307. Playing in NY has granted him a ton of hype others don't get, but he's putting in one hell of a career. It's likely the guy will end up with close to 3,000 hits and score 1,500+ times in his career.

[Vince]

Terrell Owens - has destroyed two franchises - no matter how good he plays on the field, his other nonsense makes him a player I would NEVER want on my team

You might almost make the case that Owens is underrated, if only for the exact reasons Jeter is overrated. Owens produces like crazy, yet because of his off-the-field issues, everyone hates him. That doesn't make him any worse a PLAYER, however.

[DaddyTorgo]

so 2/3 of those are yankees?

HMMMMMMM

[DaddyTorgo]

dola

but seriously, 3/3 of them play in NYC. The NYC media is obviously guilty of overhyping these guys to the moon and that's why.

[Logan]

That could be one of the best posts ever. Deliciously ironic.

Here's the thing: all that pablum you just posted is exactly why Jeter is overrated.

If that's overrated, I'll take his .315 career average, good enough defense, and how he makes all the big plays when he needs to, and stick him on my Mets team with any of his similarly overrated friends (EDIT: except A-Rod. I hate that pansy).

[MikeVick7]

Wow...20 posts and no mention of me yet? I've had entire threads devoted to me. C'mon...get with it! :)

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=33493&highlight=vick+overrated
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=34691&highlight=vick+overrated

[bosshogg23]

ESPN Page 2 All Time Overrated List (http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeoverrated.html)

Not the list that started the thread but many of these names have already come up here.

[Katon]

I think that Huckleberry's point is that while he is a future HoF member, and he's earned his way there, the phrases 'pure leader', 'pure winner', and 'intangibles through the roof' are about 90% meaningless in the context of actually winning baseball games. So while he is a future Hall of Famer, and over the course of his career he'd've been an upgrade at short for just about any team that didn't have A-Rod (oops), a lot of the stuff that gets written about him is just completely ridiculous.

But even if he is overrated, it's still hard to call someone that good one of the three most overrated players in sports.

[JS19]

Wow...20 posts and no mention of me yet? I've had entire threads devoted to me. C'mon...get with it! :)

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=33493&highlight=vick+overrated
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=34691&highlight=vick+overrated

Wow. I even started the discussion and completely forgot about Vick. He has been my most overrated player for a few years now.

Thanks for pointing that out Logan, I didn't watch the whole thing, only caught the Jeter was #1 part. Although I don't consider Jeter overrated one bit, and I too am a Met fan, I think the people that do don't understand all that he brings to the Yankees. They look at his numbers, and although he puts up very good ones, he doesn't fit the mold of a superstar, hitting 50 HRs, 140 RBI, etc.

[DeToxRox]

Michael Vick; obviously.

David Carr; Maybe a reach but he always gets the benefit of the doubt. Good players still make plays on bad teams, name plays he's made?

Steve McNair

Rasheed Wallace (And I'm a Piston fan but he's overrated)

Ben Roethlisberger (if people can call Brady overrated, then Big Ben is 10x more overrated then Brady)

A lot of them are QB's, as it proves the theory too much credit for winning, too much blame for losing (minus Carrs case)

[MacroGuru]

Historically:

* Steve Young: Actually only had one year where he was any good in the playoffs. The rest of his career, he was a terrible clutch QB, and basically coasted on the fumes of the Walsh-Montana dynasty.



You actually believe this?

Fuck, this has to be one long ass year of "being good"

1996
In an injury-shortened season young had the NFL's highest completion percentage (67.7) as well as QB rating (97.2)

1995
Missed five games due to injury to his left shoulder ... Still managed to throw for over 3,000 yards, the fourth consecutive year he accomplished that feat ... Posted his seventh straight season with a quarterback rating of over 92.

1994
NFL Player of the Year ... Set a league record with his 112.8 quarterback rating ... Fourth straight year he has led the league in QB rating, extending his own NFL record ... MVP of Super Bowl XXIX, where he set a game-record with six touchdown passes ... Completed over 70 percent of his passes to set a single season team record.

1993
Led NFL with 29 touchdowns and a 101.5 QB rating ... Became first 49er quarterback to pass over 4,000 yards ... Threw 183 consecutive passes without an interception, also setting a team record.

1992
NFL MVP ... Led NFL in touchdown passes (25), QB rating (107.0) and completion percentage (66.7) ... Became first player in NFL history to lead league with a QB rating over 100 two consecutive years.

1991
Missed five games with a injury to his medial collateral ligament in his left knee ... Still lead league in QB rating with 101.8 ... Threw longest touchdown pass of his career, a 97-yard strike to John Taylor.

Career Highlights


517 Pass Attempts in 1998

322 Pass Completions in 1998

4170 Passing Yards in 1998

36 TD Passes in 1998

76 Rushing Attempts in 1992

537 Rushing Yards in 1992

7 TD Rushes in 1994

24 Completions for 325 Yards and 6 TDs in 1994 Super Bowl against San Diego

33,124 Career Passing Yards

232 Career TD Passes

4239 Career Rushing Yards

43 Career Rushing TDs

2nd in Passing Yards in 1992, 1993, and 1998

1st in TD Passes in 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1998

[jamesUMD]

Michael Vick
Lavar Arrington
Champ Bailey

[Deattribution]

As the resident melo supporter on the board, I think it's pretty tough to put him in there. If anything, he's still underrated IMHO. While people speak of the teams Kobe and James have, rarely do people mention how horrific the Nuggets are around Anthony. The guy is double and tripled every night and played at an incredibly high level for much of the season. He's also the leader of a team that went to the playoffs three straight years. (yes, they lost 4-1 each time, but they went over a decade without a single playoff appearence before that)

I think Kobe is ridiculously harsh, even before this season.

And to top it off, I can't stand the Yankees, but I find it tough to believe guys like Mariano Rivera, Alex Rodriguez, or even Derek Jeter are overrated. Jeter is now approaching 2,000 hits at the age of 31. He's played in 23 post season series and hit .307. Playing in NY has granted him a ton of hype others don't get, but he's putting in one hell of a career. It's likely the guy will end up with close to 3,000 hits and score 1,500+ times in his career.

Never said they were bad players, just overrated. For years the Yankees have been touted as the evil unbeatable money empire, and they have lost for what? 6 years now?

As for Anthony and Kobe, Obviously Kobe is the better player - and he is a great player but he's finally just starting to learn to play more of a team game and it is paying off. Melo seems to have a bit of maturing to do himself, he and Lebron were suppose to be toe to toe at this point, and James is several years ahead of him.

[Ramzavail]

That could be one of the best posts ever. Deliciously ironic.

Here's the thing: all that pablum you just posted is exactly why Jeter is overrated.

I don't understand what I said that was overrated, all of it was true.

[Logan]

Thanks for pointing that out Logan, I didn't watch the whole thing, only caught the Jeter was #1 part. Although I don't consider Jeter overrated one bit, and I too am a Met fan, I think the people that do don't understand all that he brings to the Yankees. They look at his numbers, and although he puts up very good ones, he doesn't fit the mold of a superstar, hitting 50 HRs, 140 RBI, etc.

I think the best compliment a player can ever receive is when a fan of one of their rivals says "he can play on my team anyday." I haaaate the Yankees...but I have the greatest respect for Jeter and the game he brings everyday.

My only problem with him is that he gets way too much credit for that play last season when he caught the ball in foul territory and ended up running into the crowd. David Wright's similar play was so much better :).

[MacroGuru]

Honestly, Franklin's Steve Young comment has me stunned still....let me drink some....I will be back to post more.....

[Ramzavail]

I think that Huckleberry's point is that while he is a future HoF member, and he's earned his way there, the phrases 'pure leader', 'pure winner', and 'intangibles through the roof' are about 90% meaningless in the context of actually winning baseball games. So while he is a future Hall of Famer, and over the course of his career he'd've been an upgrade at short for just about any team that didn't have A-Rod (oops), a lot of the stuff that gets written about him is just completely ridiculous.

But even if he is overrated, it's still hard to call someone that good one of the three most overrated players in sports.

Without Jeter and Rivera, the Yankees don't have their dynasty.

I don't see how they are meaningless, how many games did the Yankees win in the 90s? Jeter was their best on the field player.

[Deattribution]

Also I think there can be a bit of confusion over 'overrated' and over-hyped. Some players can still be really great but over-hyped.

[Franklinnoble]

You actually believe this?

Fuck, this has to be one long ass year of "being good"

1996
In an injury-shortened season young had the NFL's highest completion percentage (67.7) as well as QB rating (97.2)

1995
Missed five games due to injury to his left shoulder ... Still managed to throw for over 3,000 yards, the fourth consecutive year he accomplished that feat ... Posted his seventh straight season with a quarterback rating of over 92.

1994
NFL Player of the Year ... Set a league record with his 112.8 quarterback rating ... Fourth straight year he has led the league in QB rating, extending his own NFL record ... MVP of Super Bowl XXIX, where he set a game-record with six touchdown passes ... Completed over 70 percent of his passes to set a single season team record.

1993
Led NFL with 29 touchdowns and a 101.5 QB rating ... Became first 49er quarterback to pass over 4,000 yards ... Threw 183 consecutive passes without an interception, also setting a team record.

1992
NFL MVP ... Led NFL in touchdown passes (25), QB rating (107.0) and completion percentage (66.7) ... Became first player in NFL history to lead league with a QB rating over 100 two consecutive years.

1991
Missed five games with a injury to his medial collateral ligament in his left knee ... Still lead league in QB rating with 101.8 ... Threw longest touchdown pass of his career, a 97-yard strike to John Taylor.

Career Highlights


517 Pass Attempts in 1998

322 Pass Completions in 1998

4170 Passing Yards in 1998

36 TD Passes in 1998

76 Rushing Attempts in 1992

537 Rushing Yards in 1992

7 TD Rushes in 1994

24 Completions for 325 Yards and 6 TDs in 1994 Super Bowl against San Diego

33,124 Career Passing Yards

232 Career TD Passes

4239 Career Rushing Yards

43 Career Rushing TDs

2nd in Passing Yards in 1992, 1993, and 1998

1st in TD Passes in 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1998

Yeah, pretty much... '94 was the one year he turned in a good postseason. Otherwise, he got a high QB rating thanks to the system he was in and the talent that was around him. But he was crap in the playoffs every other season.

[Ramzavail]

I think the best compliment a player can ever receive is when a fan of one of their rivals says "he can play on my team anyday." I haaaate the Yankees...but I have the greatest respect for Jeter and the game he brings everyday.

My only problem with him is that he gets way too much credit for that play last season when he caught the ball in foul territory and ended up running into the crowd. David Wright's similar play was so much better :).

Wright's was more skillful, Jeter's was gritty and had determination and it was in 2004. I played shortstop in college and now in my elder years with local softball, that is the greatest play I've seen in a long time by an infielder and its not b/c of its skill, its b/c of his disregard of injury and his balls and his desire to do what it took to beat the Red Sox that night.

[Deattribution]

Wright's was more skillful, Jeter's was gritty and had determination and it was in 2004. I played shortstop in college and now in my elder years with local softball, that is the greatest play I've seen in a long time by an infielder and its not b/c of its skill, its b/c of his disregard of injury and his balls and his desire to do what it took to beat the Red Sox that night.

Ugh - it was nowhere near the greatest anything. If Jeter looked like a foot instead of a pretty boy, the media wouldn't have gave a wang about it.

edit to fix the the wasn't into was since typos are hard to comprehend

[Ramzavail]

Ugh - it wasn't nowhere near the greatest anything. If Jeter looked like a foot instead of a pretty boy, the media wouldn't have gave a wang about it.

what? is this a jbmagic post?

[Raiders Army]

Dean Houston hands down.

[Deattribution]

what? is this a jbmagic post?

It is quite possibly on your part if you have difficulty understanding english.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Franklinnoble, the whole they had talent around them so that takes away from their individual accomplishments is BS....I disagree with every player you claim is overrated except for the steroid guys.

[Franklinnoble]

Whatever. I can think of a dozen running backs I'd rather have on my team than Emmitt Smith, easy. Ditto for QB's and Steve Young.

[mckerney]

Oh yes, Ted Ginn definitely deserves mention.

[Logan]

Wright's was more skillful, Jeter's was gritty and had determination and it was in 2004. I played shortstop in college and now in my elder years with local softball, that is the greatest play I've seen in a long time by an infielder and its not b/c of its skill, its b/c of his disregard of injury and his balls and his desire to do what it took to beat the Red Sox that night.

I'm not talking about Wright's ridiculous bare-handed catch, which is what I think you're talking about. I was referencing Wright's diving catch into the stands at a full sprint. Jeter caught the ball in foul territory, and his momentum took him into the stands. Wright was in a dead sprint and dove into the crowd to make the catch.

[mckerney]

So 91% of the league doesn't think he's overrated.

Or 91% of the league doesn't think he's the most overrated.

[Katon]

Without Jeter and Rivera, the Yankees don't have their dynasty.

I don't see how they are meaningless, how many games did the Yankees win in the 90s? Jeter was their best on the field player.

Let me rephrase. Being a pure leader and a pure winner with brilliant intangibles is a lot of noise and very little substance. Being a shortstop who hits 20 home runs a year with a .400ish OBP is extremely useful. One of the major reasons those Yankees won so many games was that they got a scary amount of offence out of normally defensive positions like SS, C, and CF (and actually, depending on the year, I might take Bernie over Jeter for best everyday player). Jeter absolutely deserves credit for that. It's just that in addition to his actual play he also gets credit for a lot of stuff which is completely irrelevant.

[JS19]

I think some guidelines need to be set to be considered overrated. As it was already pointed out, there is a huge difference between getting too much hype and being overrated. Also, how much is being a clutch performer play in this discussion? I think A-Rod will go down as one of the greatest players off all time, but til now he hasn't been very clutch. Does this make him overrated since he puts up the numbers, just can't pull through, as of now, when it counts? Another would be the talent surronding the player. I will use Leinart as an example. He had the greatest talent all around him at USC, so some could argue thats why he did what he did, but none the less, he put up amazing numbers and won championships. IMHO, you can't claim a player who falls in that catgory as overrated bc although he they may have a plethora of talent around them, they still did what they had to do.

On another note, my best friend (yankee fan) and I still argue to this day about which play was better, Jeter or Wright.

[Groundhog]

I don't think it's very fair to call Carmello over-rated. The boy is ice-cold in the clutch. Much like Lebron James, he just needs a better team around him.

[MikeVick7]

Wow. I even started the discussion and completely forgot about Vick. He has been my most overrated player for a few years now.

Thanks for pointing that out Logan, I didn't watch the whole thing, only caught the Jeter was #1 part. Although I don't consider Jeter overrated one bit, and I too am a Met fan, I think the people that do don't understand all that he brings to the Yankees. They look at his numbers, and although he puts up very good ones, he doesn't fit the mold of a superstar, hitting 50 HRs, 140 RBI, etc.
The order has been restored.

[molson]

Also I think there can be a bit of confusion over 'overrated' and over-hyped. Some players can still be really great but over-hyped.

There's technically a difference, but I think its a meaningless distinction in the context of a conversation like this one. Media hype is based, it some extent, on player talent. That's all anyone in this thread can base their opinion on - the ratio of how good they think a player is, to how much we hear about that player in the media, and then compare that ratio to other players. If that's the definition of "over-hyped" rather than "over-rated", what's "over-rated" exactly? When scouts think a player is better than he is?

And Jeter's way overrated, using that analysis. I'm so sick of hearing about that one play falling into the stands. It was basically a mistake - if he had more physical self-control, he wouldn't have ended up in the stands. And I'm sure he's a "pure winner" and all that crap - but hustling, etc, will get reflected in his batting average, OPS, etc., I've never heard anyone actually articulate how Jeter is more valuable than his stats would indicate, without using meaningless buzz words.

[st.cronin]

Steve Nash

[molson]

Steve Nash

Or more broadly, "white basketball players"

[TroyF]

Never said they were bad players, just overrated. For years the Yankees have been touted as the evil unbeatable money empire, and they have lost for what? 6 years now?

As for Anthony and Kobe, Obviously Kobe is the better player - and he is a great player but he's finally just starting to learn to play more of a team game and it is paying off. Melo seems to have a bit of maturing to do himself, he and Lebron were suppose to be toe to toe at this point, and James is several years ahead of him.


No, Melo was NOT supposed to be toe to toe with James right now. James was a basketball God.

And the difference between Melo and James isn't nearly as bad as people think it is. Is James the better player? Yes and he always will be.

But take a look at 21 year olds in the history of the league and look at where Melo sits. At age 19, the most similar season that anyone has ever had in the league was Lebron James. At ages 20 and 21 he's you have Kobe and Rahim as the two most similar.

That isn't overrated. Over the last three seasons, with the game on the line and under 10 seconds left, Melo is by far and away the best player in the NBA. He did miss in this series vs. the Clippers, but he won 7 games this year with a shot in the final seconds. He's 11-17 in his career with the game on the line.

And this year the shooting came around as did his man to man defense. (he's horrible on help defense, but so is James) He needs to work on better passing (and the Nuggets need to work on finding a guy who can hit a 12 foot jump shot who doesn't have Anthony on the back of his jersey)

But he's a special, special player for his age. And I'm not sure where the overrated comes from. He's never made an all star team. (he deserved to this year). He posted nearly identical numbers to James his rookie year and was the leading scorer for his team in a superior conference and he led his team to the playoffs. Yet James won the ROY in a landslide.

Again, if anything Melo is underrated because of how special Bron is.

[BishopMVP]

After a good rookie year, Melo was a disappointment last year - looked like he didn't care, had some attitude problems and seemed destined to fall into the good player with the potential to be great category. But this year he stepped it up and really seems on trhe path to being a step below Lebron level. Hope he keeps it up.

[Samdari]

I don't understand the Jeter argument, decent hitter, decent fielder, carried to winning by superior talent around him, just nothing to suggest he is a superstart in his own right.

Him, Vick and Kobe Bryant.

He's 11-17 in his career with the game on the line.

By the way, those 11 are more than Kobe has made HIS ENTIRE CAREER. He's like 6-36.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Is there a stat like that for Jordan? Im curious as to what his would be.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Adam Vinatieri. Missed one FG (from about 30 yards) and had another blocked in the SB against Carolina. Can't kick a touchback if his life depended on it. And probably one of the worst tackling kickers ever as the last man back.

[Young Drachma]

Historically:

* Emmitt Smith: Ran behind a mammoth offensive line on a decade's worth of great teams, and just managed not to have his career cut short by injury. Tough player, and made the most of what he had, but he was not nearly as talented as the likes of Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, etc.

* Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa: Steriods.

* Steve Young: Actually only had one year where he was any good in the playoffs. The rest of his career, he was a terrible clutch QB, and basically coasted on the fumes of the Walsh-Montana dynasty.

* Phil Jackson: Only wants to coach when he's got the best talent in the NBA at his disposal. I'd like to see him take the Atlanta Hawks and make a winner out of them.

* Deion Sanders: Blazing speed for a few years and the ability to take free agency to the best teams in the early-to-mid 90's (Dallas, SF) made him look better than he really was. Couldn't make a tackle to save his life. Wasn't so much a shut-down-CB as he was a CB who took advantage of weak QB's in the divisions he played in at the time.


Steroids don't swing the bat.

[Young Drachma]

You might almost make the case that Owens is underrated, if only for the exact reasons Jeter is overrated. Owens produces like crazy, yet because of his off-the-field issues, everyone hates him. That doesn't make him any worse a PLAYER, however.

Agreed.

[MacroGuru]

Yeah, pretty much... '94 was the one year he turned in a good postseason. Otherwise, he got a high QB rating thanks to the system he was in and the talent that was around him. But he was crap in the playoffs every other season.

So wait, based upon your statements, Tom Brady is a product of the system, Brett Favre was a product of the system, Walter Payton was a product of the system, Joe Montana was a product of the system.....

So they are all over rated?

I honestly should know better than try to discuss logic with you, but damn if I don't try here.

[TroyF]

After a good rookie year, Melo was a disappointment last year - looked like he didn't care, had some attitude problems and seemed destined to fall into the good player with the potential to be great category. But this year he stepped it up and really seems on trhe path to being a step below Lebron level. Hope he keeps it up.

I just wish people had a chance to watch his game to game progress. He didn't regress last year and he did care. He actually improved greatly, although the overall numbers didn't show it. In the first half of the season last year, he sprained both ankles and lost his explosiveness. The Nuggets were in a tail spin and when he came back he just wasn't right.

He got healthy right near the all star break and had a sensational second half, which set the tone for this seasons "breakout."

He's not going to be James. He'll never get those assist totals (although he will end up at around 5 or 6 a game by the time he's through). He's also not going to rebound much better and to be honest, I don't think you WANT him to.

Lebron James is sensational taking it up the court and passing/driving/doing his thing. Melo is better at running the court without the ball and having high flying finishes.

I'm defensive about Melo and always have been. He's been labeled as something on a national level that he's not. If hm and James act the same (as they both did in Athens), Melo gets labeled a jack ass and James gets a pass. And the same people who tout James as a saviour because of his "weak" supporting cast act as though the Nuggets are filled with 10 other all stars, when the reality is the Nuggets are a 20-25 win team without Melo and would have been in each of the last three years.

Melo's biggest sin is twofold:

1) The Pistons passed on him and won a title.
2) He happened to be in the same draft class as one of the top five players in the history of the league was in. (by the time it's all said and done)

If people just looked at Melo as a typical 21 year old and stopped with those comparisons? They'd see that he's a special, special basketball player and that he cares as much about winning as any player in the game today. I pray and hope and pray some more that he puts his name on the max contract the Nuggets will offer him this year. I'm very confident he can be the leader of a team that gets Denver to the NBA Finals one day.

OK, end of Melo rant. Back to the regularly scheduled complaining about hall of famers who are "overrated" :)

[Crapshoot]

So wait, based upon your statements, Tom Brady is a product of the system, Brett Favre was a product of the system, Walter Payton was a product of the system, Joe Montana was a product of the system.....

So they are all over rated?

I honestly should know better than try to discuss logic with you, but damn if I don't try here.

Shit, Young was probably as good as Montana - statistically, he was probably better, and overall he's a HOF as well. Calling Young overrated is idiotic.

[MacroGuru]

Shit, Young was probably as good as Montana - statistically, he was probably better, and overall he's a HOF as well. Calling Young overrated is idiotic.

Yay!!!! :D

You make me soooooo happy!

[Logan]

Or 91% of the league doesn't think he's the most overrated.

Or 91% of the league thinks he's actually underrated.

See the problem?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

It's really hard to say a guy that made the hall of fame (Young) is overrated. Forget about statistics. We all watched him play. He was pretty darn good.

[clintl]

Re: Steve Young

I stumbled across something interesting over at Pro Football Reference recently. Comparing him to the other recent Hall of Fame QBs, in addition to all his other stellar stats (completion %, QB rating, TD-to-INT ratio), Young had the highest Y/A average among them, and it isn't even close:

Young 8.0
Montana 7.5
Kelly 7.4
Marino 7.3
Moon 7.2
Elway 7.1
Aikman 7.0

You add that to his other stats, and I just don't see a plausible case for saying he was overrated.

[Logan]

You add that to his other stats, and I just don't see a plausible case for saying he was overrated.

Because people are stupid? :confused:

[Darkiller]

Calling Steve Young "overrated" is silly. I, for one, think he is the greatest athlete to ever play QB, to go along with the efficiency and the leadership skills.

If two NFL MVP awards, one SuperBowl MVP awards, seven straight Pro Bowl selections and six NFL Passing titles are not enough for you...there is nothing I can add (except his signature plays like throwing a record 6TDs in the SuperBowl, his amazing 49-yard rushing TD against the Vikings or The Catch II --should be called "The Throw" instead-- against GB in the Playoffs which all are part of the NFL's greatest plays ever).

He is a 1st-ballot Hall of Famer.
Enough said.

[ISiddiqui]

Jeter is overrated. I'm not saying he isn't a good ballplayer, but it isn't like good ballplayers can't be overrated. I mean Jeter has ascended to God-like status among some. I have friends who are Yankee fans who claim, with all honesty, that Jeter is the best defensive SS in baseball. Even when you point out range factor numbers (though his last year was pretty good), they stick to their guns. One of my friends even said the stats were biased against Yankees. Now, I'm not saying every Yankee fan believes this, but far more than you think do. This utter devotion to Jeter is why he is overrated. I mean the worse SS (and not just defensively) is playing short in Yankee Stadium!

Also Jeter may be a pretty damned good hitter, but at a career OPS+ of 121, he's far behind, say A-Rod (145) or Nomar Garciaparra (132).

Is Jeter a Hall of Famer, yes. But is he up there with Honus Wagner, or A-Rod? No. And far too many people believe he is.

[Crapshoot]

Jeter is overrated. I'm not saying he isn't a good ballplayer, but it isn't like good ballplayers can't be overrated. I mean Jeter has ascended to God-like status among some. I have friends who are Yankee fans who claim, with all honesty, that Jeter is the best defensive SS in baseball. Even when you point out range factor numbers (though his last year was pretty good), they stick to their guns. One of my friends even said the stats were biased against Yankees. Now, I'm not saying every Yankee fan believes this, but far more than you think do. This utter devotion to Jeter is why he is overrated. I mean the worse SS (and not just defensively) is playing short in Yankee Stadium!

Also Jeter may be a pretty damned good hitter, but at a career OPS+ of 121, he's far behind, say A-Rod (145) or Nomar Garciaparra (132).

Is Jeter a Hall of Famer, yes. But is he up there with Honus Wagner, or A-Rod? No. And far too many people believe he is.

Exactly. Jeter is a damn good player, by all accounts, and I'd love to have him on my team. That being said, he's a significantly worse SS than A-Rod (and should move to CF, letting A-rod move back to SS) and the New york media and fans for the most part, fail to assess his skills with any modicrum of logic.
Put it this way - is Jeter one of the top 50 players in baseball ? Probably. Is he one of the top 15 ? No way.

[oykib]

Derek Jeter
162 game averages:

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
162 Game Avg 655 123 206 33 5 18 81 23 6 68 116 .314 .386 .461 302 6 4 2 11 15

How... exactly is that overrated? Btw, his career OPS+ is 121 as a shortstop.

I think he's somewhat overrated in some quarters-- but just marginally so.

We're talking about a future 1st ballot guy.

As to A-rod... we're talking about the guy who'll get to 500 homers faster than anyone in history when gets there. Nearly 400 of those as a SS and the rest at third. Like Jeter, he's always in the lineup. Also like Jeter (1999), we have seasons with A-Rod (1996, 2002) where numerous objective measures (Win Shares, VORP) indicate that he should have been the MVP and the award was given to someone else.

[ISiddiqui]

Exactly. Jeter is a damn good player, by all accounts, and I'd love to have him on my team. That being said, he's a significantly worse SS than A-Rod (and should move to CF, letting A-rod move back to SS) and the New york media and fans for the most part, fail to assess his skills with any modicrum of logic.
Put it this way - is Jeter one of the top 50 players in baseball ? Probably. Is he one of the top 15 ? No way.

I'd move him to 2B first. They have Damon for CF now. But quite right in your last sentance. Too many think that Jeter is a Pujols like player (in terms of overall value, not what they do)! Hell, IMO, you can be a 1st ballot HoF and BE overrated. Nolan Ryan is a prime example. Does he deserve to go to the HoF, yes. First ballot? Quite possibly. Is he a Top 10 pitcher of all time? God No!

[molson]

How... exactly is that overrated? Btw, his career OPS+ is 121 as a shortstop.



An above post says Jeter's a top 50 player, but not top 15. Would you agree? Because if you do, than you're agreeing that he's overrated, because that's the kind of attention he gets.

I don't see top 15 in those stats (though they're very good for a SS). A good place to look is his MVP voting, he's very rarely been considered one of the top few guys even in his own league. He has he finished higher than 10th in the the MVP voting only TWICE (And he's never really come close to that award). Nomar's finished higher than 10th 3 times, A-Rod 7 times, Tejada also twice.

[albionmoonlight]

Keyshawn Johnson. A good, tough, possession receiver. A good blocking receiver. But never really much more than that. He's 80% of Hines Ward--which isn't bad. But it is nothing compared to the publicity he got because he was the #1 overall pick, played in NY, and wrote a book with "Damn" in the title.

[oykib]

I'd move him to 2B first. They have Damon for CF now. But quite right in your last sentance. Too many think that Jeter is a Pujols like player (in terms of overall value, not what they do)! Hell, IMO, you can be a 1st ballot HoF and BE overrated. Nolan Ryan is a prime example. Does he deserve to go to the HoF, yes. First ballot? Quite possibly. Is he a Top 10 pitcher of all time? God No!

Mildly overrated... perhaps. But if you've got a guy who puts up 25 Win shares a year, how overrated could he possibly be. If you are talking most overrrated, you should be looking at hyped players who don't produce.

BTW, he's only finished in the single digits of the MVP balloting twice. He deserved the award when he came in second in 1999. He was overrated because of the performance of the 1998 Yankees, since he was the best everyday player on a team that was the best any of us had seen.

So is he overrated because a section of yahoo fans love hyperbole? I think MVP voting has always put him about where he belongs.

[oykib]

An above post says Jeter's a top 50 player, but not top 15. Would you agree? Because if you do, than you're agreeing that he's overrated, because that's the kind of attention he gets.

I don't see top 15 in those stats (though they're very good for a SS). A good place to look is his MVP voting, he's very rarely been considered one of the top few guys even in his own league. He has he finished higher than 10th in the the MVP voting only TWICE (And he's never really come close to that award). Nomar's finished higher than 10th 3 times, A-Rod 7 times, Tejada also twice.

No one says he's the best player in baseball. But, to this point, he's been significantly bettr than Nomar. He's also been marginally better than Tejada.

He's far behind A-Rod. BTW, talking about overrated, Tejada's got one of A-rod's MVPs on his mantle.

[Franklinnoble]

Ok... here are Steve Young's playoff numbers:



Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
1987 min (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min1987.htm) L,24-36 | 12 17 158 1 1 | 6 72 1
1988 min (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min1988.htm) W,34-9 | 1 1 -1 0 0 | 3 1 0
1989 min (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min1989.htm) W,41-13 | 0 1 0 0 0 | 0 0 0
1989 ram (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram1989.htm) W,30-3 | 1 1 6 0 0 | 1 -1 0
*1989 den (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den1989.htm) W,55-10 | 2 3 20 0 0 | 4 6 0
1990 nyg (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg1990.htm) L,13-15 | 1 1 25 0 0 | 0 0 0
1992 was (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was1992.htm) W,20-13 | 20 30 227 2 1 | 8 73 0
1992 dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1992.htm) L,20-30 | 25 35 313 1 2 | 8 33 1
1993 nyg (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg1993.htm) W,44-3 | 17 22 226 0 0 | 3 17 0
1993 dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1993.htm) L,21-38 | 27 45 287 1 1 | 7 38 1
1994 chi (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi1994.htm) W,44-15 | 16 22 143 1 0 | 5 32 1
1994 dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1994.htm) W,38-28 | 13 29 155 2 0 | 10 47 1
*1994 sdg (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sdg1994.htm) W,49-26 | 24 36 325 6 0 | 5 49 0
1995 gnb (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb1995.htm) L,17-27 | 32 65 328 0 2 | 9 77 1
1996 phi (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi1996.htm) W,14-0 | 14 21 161 1 0 | 11 65 1
1996 gnb (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb1996.htm) L,14-35 | 2 5 8 0 0 | 1 3 0
1997 min (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min1997.htm) W,38-22 | 21 30 224 1 0 | 4 37 0
1997 gnb (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb1997.htm) L,10-23 | 23 38 250 0 1 | 2 1 0
1998 gnb (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb1998.htm) W,30-27 | 18 32 182 3 2 | 3 16 0
1998 atl (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/atl1998.htm) L,18-20 | 23 37 289 1 3 | 6 19 1
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
TOTAL | 292 471 3326 20 13 | 96 585 8</pre>



Aside from 1994 (which I've already said was his one good playoff run), his playoff numbers are average... and in many cases, pathetic.

[Crapshoot]

I'd move him to 2B first. They have Damon for CF now. But quite right in your last sentance. Too many think that Jeter is a Pujols like player (in terms of overall value, not what they do)! Hell, IMO, you can be a 1st ballot HoF and BE overrated. Nolan Ryan is a prime example. Does he deserve to go to the HoF, yes. First ballot? Quite possibly. Is he a Top 10 pitcher of all time? God No!

nolan Ryan and Sandy Koufax are my two pet peeves. Most people don't get, for example, that Pedro Martinez is the pitcher that they think Sandy was. As for Ryan - hell, he's top 20 at best IMO - and that's being very generous.

[dawgfan]

Historically:

* Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa: Steriods.
I'll give you Sosa. I honestly have no idea when McGwire starting using - and I'm assuming McGwire used based off his avoiding specific answers in his congressional testimony, though it's possible he limited his use to andro - so I don't really know how to rate him. Seems to me that, given his frame, his size is something that could've started off being a product of lifting and andro, so I'm not so sure that he didn't start his career not as a juicer, and he was a pretty terrifying power hitter then before injuries nearly finished his career.

Bonds though was a Hall-of-Famer before he started juicing in '98/'99, and one of the top LF of all-time. Juicing boosted him into Babe Ruth territory, but he was great before he ever started juicing.

[dawgfan]

Ok... here are Steve Young's playoff numbers:

Aside from 1994 (which I've already said was his one good playoff run), his playoff numbers are average... and in many cases, pathetic.
Those numbers give him a QB rating of 85.8. You really think that's average for a playoff QB?

[ISiddiqui]

So is he overrated because a section of yahoo fans love hyperbole? I think MVP voting has always put him about where he belongs.

Not 'yahoo fans', but a majority (maybe even 'vast majority') of casual fans.

He deserved the award when he came in second in 1999.

Do you mean 1998? Because he was 3rd that year, but 6th in 1999. In 1998, Juan Gonzales was better (OPS+ of 149 to Jeter's 126.. and Nomar had 142). In 1999, Jeter had a 161 OPS+, but Manny Ramirez had an OPS+ of 174 (though he didn't win either)! Then again, in 1999, I would have given the AL MVP to Pedro who had a Hell of a year (ERA+ of 245).

[WSUCougar]

As for Ryan - hell, he's top 20 at best IMO - and that's being very generous.
How can you be overrated with 324 wins, 5700+ strike-outs, and seven no-hitters?

[John Galt]

How can you be overrated with 324 wins, 5700+ strike-outs, and seven no-hitters?

ERA, W/L % (which I care less about), and BB are the biggest knocks against him. Ryan had horrible control problems and put too many runners on the basepaths. He was still a great pitcher, but I don't think he should ever enter the greatest-pitcher-ever discussions (and he regularly seems to).

Edit: Ryan's career ERA was 3.19 (when the league average was 3.57), he had 2795 BB (a record), and 292 losses.

Edit again: I would change my original post to say "control problems" instead of "horrible control problems."

Yet another edit: Ryan's record number of BB is even more incredible because 2nd place on that list is Steve Carlton with 1833. He leads in BB allowed by almost 1,000 BB.

[Warhammer]

Ryan was never the dominant pitcher on many of his teams. He was frequently the number 2 guy. Granted, he was a great fireballer, but he also got hammered, which is why his career record is close to .500. He also had a tendency to walk people. Add to that, he pitched well into his 40s so he was also a bit of an accumulator. That said, when the guy was on, he was close to unhittable.

[John Galt]

And one more note on Ryan (I decided to stop editing), compare him to Bert Blyleven. Blyleven isn't in the Hall of Fame although many (including me) think he should be. Ryan definitely beats Blyleven in his counting stats (and that makes Ryan a better pitcher), but they have a lot of similarities. Ryan's ERA+ is 112 whereas Blyleven's is 118. Sandy Koufax was at 131. Water Johnson was at 146. Pedro Martinez is at 166 (he is the all-time leader). Jose Rijo even has a 120.

Basically, Ryan did a number of amazing things (no-hitters and K's being the biggest), but his ERA wasn't that much better than league average during his career to make him part of the greatest-pitcher-ever debate.

[dawgfan]

Ryan was never the dominant pitcher on many of his teams. He was frequently the number 2 guy. Granted, he was a great fireballer, but he also got hammered, which is why his career record is close to .500. He also had a tendency to walk people. Add to that, he pitched well into his 40s so he was also a bit of an accumulator. That said, when the guy was on, he was close to unhittable.
It would be exaggeration to say Ryan was never the dominant pitcher on his teams - there were certainly times when he was the best pitcher on the Angels and Astros, and for the first 3 years or so with the Rangers he was their best pitcher.

He just doesn't have the ERA+ numbers to rank in the greatest pitcher of all time arguments. He was good, and had unreal durability, but he's not in the same class as guys like Clemens, Pedro, Maddux, Walter Johnson, etc.

[molson]

How can you be overrated with 324 wins, 5700+ strike-outs, and seven no-hitters?

When it takes you 27 years to do those things?

The stats are still pretty good but his 162 game average is 13-12, 3.19 ERA, 1.247 WHIP, 245 K.

[WSUCougar]

When it takes you 27 years to do those things?
I hear what you are saying, but - stats aside - the fact that the guy was a competitive and oft-times unhittable major league pitcher for 27 years is pretty remarkable in itself. You might say his stats are padded by his longevity, but I would counter that his longevity should rate as a stat unto itself. Compare that to Koufax's short tenure - Ryan was around, what, three times longer?

[Warhammer]

It would be exaggeration to say Ryan was never the dominant pitcher on his teams - there were certainly times when he was the best pitcher on the Angels and Astros, and for the first 3 years or so with the Rangers he was their best pitcher.

He just doesn't have the ERA+ numbers to rank in the greatest pitcher of all time arguments. He was good, and had unreal durability, but he's not in the same class as guys like Clemens, Pedro, Maddux, Walter Johnson, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I think he deserves to be in the HOF and was a great pitcher. He just isn't in the same class as Clemens, Maddux, Gibson, etc.

I put him in that second tier of HOF pitchers.

[AlexB]

Honestly, Franklin's Steve Young comment has me stunned still....let me drink some....I will be back to post more.....

I'm kinda confused myself - I used to detest the 49ers (largely because my mate was abig 49ers fan and used to rub in Miami's failure to win a bean - now I don't hear so much from hi :D ) but hasn't Young got the best passer rating in NFL history? One of the best rushing averages for QB's to boot?

Just bizarre from FN.

However, I think FN is much like an ex-work colleague ofmine - he likes to be contrary just to be pseudo 'enigmatic' - tries to create a personality about himself for the sake of it

[Franklinnoble]

No, I sincerely think Young was a playoff choke-artist, and I think he put up nice numbers playing in a dink-and-dunk west coast offense that was already running like a well-oiled machine when he got there.

[Daimyo]

Ok... here are Steve Young's playoff numbers:



Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
1987 min (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min1987.htm) L,24-36 | 12 17 158 1 1 | 6 72 1
1988 min (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min1988.htm) W,34-9 | 1 1 -1 0 0 | 3 1 0
1989 min (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min1989.htm) W,41-13 | 0 1 0 0 0 | 0 0 0
1989 ram (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram1989.htm) W,30-3 | 1 1 6 0 0 | 1 -1 0
*1989 den (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den1989.htm) W,55-10 | 2 3 20 0 0 | 4 6 0
1990 nyg (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg1990.htm) L,13-15 | 1 1 25 0 0 | 0 0 0
1992 was (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was1992.htm) W,20-13 | 20 30 227 2 1 | 8 73 0
1992 dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1992.htm) L,20-30 | 25 35 313 1 2 | 8 33 1
1993 nyg (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg1993.htm) W,44-3 | 17 22 226 0 0 | 3 17 0
1993 dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1993.htm) L,21-38 | 27 45 287 1 1 | 7 38 1
1994 chi (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi1994.htm) W,44-15 | 16 22 143 1 0 | 5 32 1
1994 dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1994.htm) W,38-28 | 13 29 155 2 0 | 10 47 1
*1994 sdg (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sdg1994.htm) W,49-26 | 24 36 325 6 0 | 5 49 0
1995 gnb (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb1995.htm) L,17-27 | 32 65 328 0 2 | 9 77 1
1996 phi (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi1996.htm) W,14-0 | 14 21 161 1 0 | 11 65 1
1996 gnb (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb1996.htm) L,14-35 | 2 5 8 0 0 | 1 3 0
1997 min (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min1997.htm) W,38-22 | 21 30 224 1 0 | 4 37 0
1997 gnb (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb1997.htm) L,10-23 | 23 38 250 0 1 | 2 1 0
1998 gnb (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb1998.htm) W,30-27 | 18 32 182 3 2 | 3 16 0
1998 atl (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/atl1998.htm) L,18-20 | 23 37 289 1 3 | 6 19 1
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
TOTAL | 292 471 3326 20 13 | 96 585 8</pre>



Aside from 1994 (which I've already said was his one good playoff run), his playoff numbers are average... and in many cases, pathetic.

If you think those numbers are bad for a playoff QB?? You are crazy.

[Cap Ologist]

You actually believe this?

Fuck, this has to be one long ass year of "being good"

1996
In an injury-shortened season young had the NFL's highest completion percentage (67.7) as well as QB rating (97.2)

1995
Missed five games due to injury to his left shoulder ... Still managed to throw for over 3,000 yards, the fourth consecutive year he accomplished that feat ... Posted his seventh straight season with a quarterback rating of over 92.

1994
NFL Player of the Year ... Set a league record with his 112.8 quarterback rating ... Fourth straight year he has led the league in QB rating, extending his own NFL record ... MVP of Super Bowl XXIX, where he set a game-record with six touchdown passes ... Completed over 70 percent of his passes to set a single season team record.

1993
Led NFL with 29 touchdowns and a 101.5 QB rating ... Became first 49er quarterback to pass over 4,000 yards ... Threw 183 consecutive passes without an interception, also setting a team record.

1992
NFL MVP ... Led NFL in touchdown passes (25), QB rating (107.0) and completion percentage (66.7) ... Became first player in NFL history to lead league with a QB rating over 100 two consecutive years.

1991
Missed five games with a injury to his medial collateral ligament in his left knee ... Still lead league in QB rating with 101.8 ... Threw longest touchdown pass of his career, a 97-yard strike to John Taylor.

Career Highlights


517 Pass Attempts in 1998

322 Pass Completions in 1998

4170 Passing Yards in 1998

36 TD Passes in 1998

76 Rushing Attempts in 1992

537 Rushing Yards in 1992

7 TD Rushes in 1994

24 Completions for 325 Yards and 6 TDs in 1994 Super Bowl against San Diego

33,124 Career Passing Yards

232 Career TD Passes

4239 Career Rushing Yards

43 Career Rushing TDs

2nd in Passing Yards in 1992, 1993, and 1998

1st in TD Passes in 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1998


How many times did he beat the Cowboys in the playoffs during that stretch? Once

Look up overrated in a dictionary and you'll probably see his picture.

[Daimyo]

How many times did he beat the Cowboys in the playoffs during that stretch? Once

Look up overrated in a dictionary and you'll probably see his picture.
If losing to the Cowboys in the early to mid 90's is the criteria for being overrated, there are a lot of overrated players from that period.... basically everyone who didn't play for Dallas.

[ISiddiqui]

If losing to the Cowboys in the early to mid 90's is the criteria for being overrated, there are a lot of overrated players from that period.... basically everyone who didn't play for Dallas.

Ditto. I think the people saying Young was overrated are full of crap.

[Eaglesfan27]

Young is one of the top QB's of our generation who would have had even more good years if he wasn't behind Montana for so long.

[AlexB]

FWIW - my vote for most overrated players in sports

#1 (by a mile) David Platt
Alternative nomination (aka somebody you might have heard of) Bryce Paup - for some reason his fame has always bugged me.

[clintl]

No, I sincerely think Young was a playoff choke-artist, and I think he put up nice numbers playing in a dink-and-dunk west coast offense that was already running like a well-oiled machine when he got there.

You didn't watch the Walsh-Seifert version of the West Coast offense much, did you? Because if you did, you would know it was anything but a dink-and-dunk offense with Montana and Young at the helm.

[Bad-example]

You didn't watch the Walsh-Seifert version of the West Coast offense much, did you? Because if you did, you would know it was anything but a dink-and-dunk offense with Montana and Young at the helm.

Bingo. Now if you want to talk about overrated players, you have to talk about Art Monk. ;)

[Buccaneer]

Current NFL: Bret Favre and Vick, the former more than the latter

There were plenty historically, like some of the 70s Steelers who made the HOF.

[WSUCougar]

I must disagree on Favre. I think he deserves all the plaudits he gets. It's not just about his physical abilities, which were once top shelf but are admittedly waning. The guy is tough, gutsy, highly respected, charismatic, and a natural leader.

As for "only" one Super Bowl, does that mean that Dan Marino is overrated, too?

[JS19]

Gonna have to diagree with Young, for reasons already stated, also Favre and Nash. I think Favre's case speaks for itself, I can kinda see how Nash can come up, but I am pretty curious as to why someone would think he is overrated. He doesn't fit the typical image of a superstar, which I don't even think he is one, but he sure is a damn good player IMO.

[mckerney]

Gonna have to diagree with Young, for reasons already stated, also Favre and Nash. I think Favre's case speaks for itself, I can kinda see how Nash can come up, but I am pretty curious as to why someone would think he is overrated. He doesn't fit the typical image of a superstar, which I don't even think he is one, but he sure is a damn good player IMO.

I think Bill Simmons said it best about Nash, "In retrospect, Stockton should have just grown out his hair and stopped playing defense -- then, he could have won back-to-back MVP's."

And as far as why someone would think Nash overrated is he's not a player who deserves back to back MVP awards.

[larrymcg421]

Here are some of the Playoff QB Ratings for some of the more notable QB's. Young's seems to be right in the middle, but I think the top and bottom shows that you can't really judge the career of a QB by this number.

Jeff Hostettler - 112.0
Frank Reich - 97.6
Joe Montana - 95.7
Jake Delhomme - 95.0
Kurt Warner - 92.3
Tom Brady - 89.4
Payton Manning - 89.1
Troy Aikman - 89.0
Terry Bradshaw - 86.8
Steve Young - 85.8
Warren Moon - 84.5
Brett Favre - 83.5
Donovan McNabb - 80.1
John Elway - 79.8
Dan Marino - 77.1
Phil Simms - 77.0
Jim Kelly - 71.7

[Buccaneer]

I must disagree on Favre. I think he deserves all the plaudits he gets. It's not just about his physical abilities, which were once top shelf but are admittedly waning. The guy is tough, gutsy, highly respected, charismatic, and a natural leader.

As for "only" one Super Bowl, does that mean that Dan Marino is overrated, too?

It's not about Super Bowl but his recklessness in costing his team some wins. It also got him some wins but overall, I won't put him up there in the top 5 QBs of all time (where many put him) and thus, overrated.

[oykib]

Not 'yahoo fans', but a majority (maybe even 'vast majority') of casual fans.



Do you mean 1998? Because he was 3rd that year, but 6th in 1999. In 1998, Juan Gonzales was better (OPS+ of 149 to Jeter's 126.. and Nomar had 142). In 1999, Jeter had a 161 OPS+, but Manny Ramirez had an OPS+ of 174 (though he didn't win either)! Then again, in 1999, I would have given the AL MVP to Pedro who had a Hell of a year (ERA+ of 245).

You're telling me that you think a Left fielder with an OPS+ of 174 is more valuable than a SS with one of 161? Pudge was the winner that year. But Win Shares has Jeter as the best player in the league that year.

My point is that such a vastly overrated player would have won those awards had it been at all concievable to give it to him. But he didn't. Bill James did a study that showed that NY Yankee ballplayers tend to win fewer awards than expected.

There are just as many Jeter haters as people that overrate him. There are probably two or three times as many A-Rod haters...

BTW, Jeters numbers are very good-- but not amazing. But it's interesting to note that he still picks up as many Win Shares as Tejada and Nomar (when Nomar played). James rates Jeter as an awful defensive shortstop for most of his career. So where are those Win Shares coming from? Jeter does have more value than his (obvious) numbers. So where is that value coming from?

It's not so much of a stretch to mark it down to intangibles. You could say probably quantify more clearly if you wanted. But in his career he's outperformed both Nomar and (barely)Tejada and he's in the playoffs every year (with the incidental four championships). He performs at almost the same level in the playoffs as he does in the regular season-- and he has almost a season's worth of postseason games under his belt. I can see using these last facts as a tie-breaker with Tejada.

[Easy Mac]

I didn't think Win Shares took into account intangibles?

[oykib]

I didn't think Win Shares took into account intangibles?

It doesn't. But it calculates beyond the traditional or obvious stats. Jeter was within one win share of Tejada last year. but if you look at their cards on Baseball reference, you'd never guess it.


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
2005 29 BAL AL 162 654 89 199 50 5 26 98 5 1 40 83 .304 .349 .515 337 0 3 8 7 26
2005 31 NYY AL 159 654 122 202 25 5 19 70 14 5 77 117 .309 .389 .450 294 7 3 3 11 15



1 AL A Rodriguez NYA 3B 33.3 0.0 3.3 19 0.989 24 37 318
2 AL M Ramirez BOS OF 30.9 0.0 2.9 17 1.018 22 34 310
3 AL G Sheffield NYA OF 30.5 0.0 2.2 17 0.978 21 33 401
4 AL M Teixeira TEX 1B 29.1 0.0 3.3 18 0.884 20 32 69
5 AL D Ortiz BOS 1B 31.4 0.0 0.2 14 1.149 22 31 108
6 AL B Roberts BAL 2B 23.5 0.0 5.0 16 0.873 17 28 63
7 AL T Hafner CLE 1B 26.8 0.0 0.0 11 1.190 19 27 56
8 AL V Guerrero LAA OF 24.5 0.0 2.3 15 0.893 16 27 222
9 AL M Young TEX SS 23.0 0.0 4.5 18 0.753 15 27 90
10 AL R Sexson SEA 1B 25.4 0.0 1.6 17 0.789 15 27 129
11 AL M Tejada BAL SS 20.0 0.0 6.1 18 0.717 13 26 188
12 AL D Jeter NYA SS 19.6 0.0 6.0 19 0.672 12 26 245
13 AL J Giambi NYA 1B 24.5 0.0 0.6 12 1.016 16 25 261
14 AL J Peralta CLE SS 17.0 0.0 8.1 15 0.813 14 25 29
15 AL J Damon BOS OF 19.9 0.0 5.7 17 0.739 13 25 195
16 AL H Matsui NYA OF 22.6 0.0 2.6 18 0.711 13 25 73
17 AL G Sizemore CLE OF 18.2 0.0 6.4 19 0.663 12 25 30
18 AL P Konerko CHA 1B 21.5 0.0 2.9 17 0.712 12 24 113
19 AL J Lugo TB SS 18.6 0.0 5.8 17 0.699 12 24 85
20 AL I Suzuki SEA OF 19.6 0.0 4.3 19 0.631 11 24 135

[ISiddiqui]

You're telling me that you think a Left fielder with an OPS+ of 174 is more valuable than a SS with one of 161?

When both are horrid defensively, yeah. Because a bad LF doesn't have as much bad impact on his team than a bad SS would.

My point is that such a vastly overrated player would have won those awards had it been at all concievable to give it to him.

Why? Could it be that people who know baseball better than the average fan don't put him on the pedestal? Know that he isn't as good as he is perceieved by the casual baseball fan?

So where are those Win Shares coming from? Jeter does have more value than his (obvious) numbers. So where is that value coming from?

It's not so much of a stretch to mark it down to intangibles.

This is quite possibly the strangest quote I've ever heard. As Easy Mac said, Win Shares doesn't take into account intangibles. In fact, statistical analysis is supposed to remove those intangibles from play because they can distort what is there (ie, like 'clutch hitters').

[ISiddiqui]

It doesn't. But it calculates beyond the traditional or obvious stats. Jeter was within one win share of Tejada last year. but if you look at their cards on Baseball reference, you'd never guess it.
One MUST take into account that the Yankees went 95-67 (5 games above Pythagorean WL) and Baltimore went 74-88. (equal to Pythagorean WL). So there were less Win Shares to go around for the O's (15 less [5 games above runs*3] than the Yankees had to work with if you see actual record v. pythagorean record]. After all, Win Shares does, obvious, calculate how many of the total team wins the player is responsible for (regardless of runs actually scored).

[oykib]

Win Shares calculates fairly for both good teams and bad teams.

And Jeter's value as a shortstop comes from playing adequately. There is no negative value.

That's what I'm talking about with Jeter hatred. Normally, you can be counted on for objeective analysis. Jeter's value is coming from somewhere. He got more WS than Giambi and Matsui last season. They were playing on the same first-place Yankee team.

It's fine for the average fan to simplify it as intangibles. We could say thet he hits into fewer DPs and has a fair number of HBPs... But that's a lot of work.

[ISiddiqui]

Win Shares calculates fairly for both good teams and bad teams.

But calculates total win shares based on total wins, yet calculates the offensive share on it mostly on runs created. What happens when the team wins more games than its runs indicate they should?

And Jeter's value as a shortstop comes from playing adequately. There is no negative value.

And that's one of the problems of the measure. There should be negative values. There is no reason why a horrid SS shouldn't be penalized for being horrid, and rather simply be called average.

That's what I'm talking about with Jeter hatred. Normally, you can be counted on for objeective analysis. Jeter's value is coming from somewhere. He got more WS than Giambi and Matsui last season. They were playing on the same first-place Yankee team.

It's fine for the average fan to simplify it as intangibles. We could say thet he hits into fewer DPs and has a fair number of HBPs... But that's a lot of work.[/quote]

I don't think I ever said he was worse than Giambi or Matsui.

And interestingly enough if we look at your list of Win Shares for last year in the AL, Jeter is 12th. The 12th best player in the American League. If you went on the street and asked to rank Jeter's performance last year in the AL alone, the average fan would put him, in the Top 5 on performance (putting aside all Yankee hate). They'd be shocked (and probably ask to see proof) that he is behind Brian Roberts, Mike Young, or even Richie Sexson.

That's what I'm talking about. Jeter gets the press and reputation by fans of a Top 5 player in the entire MAJORS, but he wasn't even top 10 in the American League last season.

[GreenMonster]

Has anyone mentioned Nolan Ryan yet.. Sportsnation voters picked him the 2nd greatest living pitcher behind Clemens.. That is crazy, Ryan isn't even top 20..

[oykib]

Actually, you have to go up to David Ortiz to find a player that was clearly better than Jeter or down to Buehrle to find the player that he's clearly better than. There isn't much of a distinction until you get to 3 WS.

But the Average fan wanted Ortiz to win the MVP. He wasn't even as good as Ramirez-- let alone A-Rod. And no one would have put him behind Sheffield. Is Ortiz overrated as well?

Like I said. That's just being a Jeter hater. BTW, none of those players you mentioned are better than Jeter. they were marginally more productive last year. But Jeter is a player that produces 25 WS seasons like clockwork and has ~250 for his career already-- not counting his postseason production. None of those players is close.

And I don't know anyone who says Jeter is a top 5 player in the Majors...

Who do you know who says that?

[GreenMonster]

Actually, you have to go up to David Ortiz to find a player that was clearly better than Jeter or down to Buehrle to find the player that he's clearly better than. There isn't much of a distinction until you get to 3 WS.

But the Average fan wanted Ortiz to win the MVP. He wasn't even as good as Ramirez-- let alone A-Rod. And no one would have put him behind Sheffield. Is Ortiz overrated as well?

Like I said. That's just being a Jeter hater. BTW, none of those players you mentioned are better than Jeter. they were marginally more productive last year. But Jeter is a player that produces 25 WS seasons like clockwork and has ~250 for his career already-- not counting his postseason production. None of those players is close.

And I don't know anyone who says Jeter is a top 5 player in the Majors...

Who do you know who says that?

I hope you don't think Jeter has 250 win shares for his career..

[ISiddiqui]

But the Average fan wanted Ortiz to win the MVP. He wasn't even as good as Ramirez-- let alone A-Rod. And no one would have put him behind Sheffield. Is Ortiz overrated as well?

The average fan wanted Ortiz to win the MVP? Ah, I see... the Yankee fans' inherant "everyone hates us" attitude. Pops up every time. Most people picked A-Rod.

And Ortiz was judged solely on his hitting by a lot of people, since he was a DH people didn't look at the defense when comparing. Offensively speaking, Ortiz was better than Ramirez. Though he shouldn't have finished two. Hafner, who is severly underrated, was a better hitter than Ortiz... and A-Rod, but I think for most writers, A-Rod playing defense would win out.

Like I said. That's just being a Jeter hater. BTW, none of those players you mentioned are better than Jeter. they were marginally more productive last year. But Jeter is a player that produces 25 WS seasons like clockwork and has ~250 for his career already-- not counting his postseason production. None of those players is close.

Sorry, your listing was for career Win Shares? Because in that case, it seems fairly low :p.

And I don't know anyone who says Jeter is a top 5 player in the Majors...

Who do you know who says that?

Oh just about everyone. I probably heard more about that catch where he ran into the stands than I've ever heard of any other catch before (Hell, maybe even combined).

Yankee fans have developed a blind spot to this rabid deification of Jeter (or are a part of it). Those outside that group can see it clearly. You've seen a few on this thread (Crapshoot's and molsen's posts as a couple of examples).

[GreenMonster]

I hope you don't think Jeter has 250 win shares for his career..

He has less than I thought, only 245..

[ISiddiqui]

He has less than I thought, only 245..

Less win shares than you though? Could you have.. overrated him based on the press he gets? ;)

(Kidding, kidding!!)

[oykib]

I'd think that this board was a fairly decent cross-section of sports fans. There are a few "defenders" of Jeter. None of them is saying Jeter is in the greatest player in the majors.

But you do have "haters" saying that all Jeter fans call him the greatest thing since sliced bread. I've yet to meet any of these people myself.

Anyway, I've gotta get back to downloading porn.

[Arctus]

When both are horrid defensively, yeah. Because a bad LF doesn't have as much bad impact on his team than a bad SS would.

In 2005 Jeter had a range factor of 4.76 and a fielding % of .979. These compare favorably to the league averages of 4.60 and .972 respectively. Its hard to label Jeter as a liability in the field (in 2005) based on these numbers.

2005 was also the first season that Jeter's range factor was above the league average since 1997.

[Katon]

In 2005 Jeter had a range factor of 4.76 and a fielding % of .979. These compare favorably to the league averages of 4.60 and .972 respectively. Its hard to label Jeter as a liability in the field (in 2005) based on these numbers.

2005 was also the first season that Jeter's range factor was above the league average since 1997.

On the other hand, that remark was talking about 1999.

Oh, and Oykib, regarding your BBref stats: Tejada wins SLG by .065, Jeter wins OBP by .040 and hits into significantly fewer double plays. How is it hard to see that those two are going to be fairly close in value?

[oykib]

On the other hand, that remark was talking about 1999.

Oh, and Oykib, regarding your BBref stats: Tejada wins SLG by .065, Jeter wins OBP by .040 and hits into significantly fewer double plays. How is it hard to see that those two are going to be fairly close in value?

That's for those of us who care about those stats. He also gets hit by more pitches and sacrifices more. But I have no problem with people simplifying it to intangibles or doing the little things or whatever...

[DanGarion]

You actually believe this?

Fuck, this has to be one long ass year of "being good"


Maybe he meant Troy Aikman?

[st.cronin]

I think Bill Simmons said it best about Nash, "In retrospect, Stockton should have just grown out his hair and stopped playing defense -- then, he could have won back-to-back MVP's."

And as far as why someone would think Nash overrated is he's not a player who deserves back to back MVP awards.

If Steve Nash in his prime and John Stockton in his prime were on the same team, Steve Nash would play about 10 minutes a game.

Shoot, put Steve Nash on the Detroit Pistons and he wouldn't play more than 15-20 minutes a game. He's a good point guard, but no better than a lot of other guys who never got any love. Mark Jackson, anybody?

[GreenMonster]

If Steve Nash in his prime and John Stockton in his prime were on the same team, Steve Nash would play about 10 minutes a game.

Shoot, put Steve Nash on the Detroit Pistons and he wouldn't play more than 15-20 minutes a game. He's a good point guard, but no better than a lot of other guys who never got any love. Mark Jackson, anybody?

To bad Steve Nash can shoot and Jackson was average at best.. Thats what seperates Nash and Jackson..

[Glengoyne]

I can sort of see where FN is coming from on Young. I was a niner fan, and I had trouble letting go of Montana. I had trouble with Young when he was playing, but I think the problem was more with Shanahan. I think we went for huge multi-game stretches where Rice wasn't thrown a ball over his shoulder. I remember bitching about Young, but it was really Shanahan I had trouble with.

As for FN's point about Emmit. Not a chance. Emmit was a great running back in his stretch with the Cowboys, certainly more responsible for their run than Aikman or Irvin.

[NYFAN]

I didn't read the whole thing, but these guys jump out at me...

Carlos Beltran - a very average "good" player who makes $100 million - he is not a franchise player.

Michael Vick - Yay, he can run. Too bad he couldn't make a good decision on the field if his career depended on it. Oh yeaaaa, he's a quaterback.

Steve Nash - He's a very good player, don't get me wrong. But his style fits perfectly in the scheme they run in Phoenix. Maybe this doesn't make him overrated, but I don't think he's the NBA's MVP this year.

Alexei Yashin - He sucks. And gets paid a real lot.

[JS19]

Def. can see where people are coming from with the Beltran argument, and I may be a bit biased since I am a Mets fan, he probably is overpaid, I think Beltran falls more in to the category of being overhyped than anything else.

[IMetTrentGreen]

its reggie bush. great player with one of the three best offensive lines in modern football in front of him. all this draft highlights are of him not getting touched, yet people talk about him like he's the best prospect to come out since jim brown, and no one even questioned it. he's at his best after his teammates have already done their job.

[MacroGuru]

I can sort of see where FN is coming from on Young. I was a niner fan, and I had trouble letting go of Montana. I had trouble with Young when he was playing, but I think the problem was more with Shanahan. I think we went for huge multi-game stretches where Rice wasn't thrown a ball over his shoulder. I remember bitching about Young, but it was really Shanahan I had trouble with.

As for FN's point about Emmit. Not a chance. Emmit was a great running back in his stretch with the Cowboys, certainly more responsible for their run than Aikman or Irvin.

I know the frustration with him not getting the ball to Rice a lot, but Rice was always doubled leaving T.O. one on one....hence the reason that T.O. and Young connected so well....

[CraigSca]

While I think Jeter is a very good player, he is highly over-rated in the clutch. The whole crap that a player can decide when he wants to be good is garbage (isn't that essentially what we're saying here by "clutch"?). Was just reading in ESPN Magazine about this - it's interesting to note - anyone know the player who made more outs to END GAMES with the tying or winning run on base last season? That's right, our man, Derek Jeter.

[Chubby]

The problem with Jeter is the fanboys make him out to be Jesus At Shortstop.

Mariano changed the way teams played the Yankees. Jeter didn't, nobody said "oh no, Jeter is coming up to bat!"

Whoever said Jeter was the best offensive player on the Yankees during their run must be smoking the same crack as Mr "Steve Young had 1 good year".

Two words: Bernie Williams

[Ragone]

its reggie bush. great player with one of the three best offensive lines in modern football in front of him. all this draft highlights are of him not getting touched, yet people talk about him like he's the best prospect to come out since jim brown, and no one even questioned it. he's at his best after his teammates have already done their job.


Totally agree here.. i've heard several people in the media call him "the micheal jordan" of football..

hardly.. he's not even a 3 down back/goal line, played against some of the most inferior defenses of all times in the pac-10

Good player.. yes,

overrated.. totally

[clintl]

I know the frustration with him not getting the ball to Rice a lot, but Rice was always doubled leaving T.O. one on one....hence the reason that T.O. and Young connected so well....

Are you guys talking about the same era? T.O. wasn't there yet when Shanahan was the OC. He left after Young's Super Bowl season.

[clintl]

Dola...

Isn't it a bit early to say whether Reggie Bush is overrated?

[JS19]

Dola...

Isn't it a bit early to say whether Reggie Bush is overrated?

I agree. Once again, a player who falls in the "hype" category IMO. And who knows, it might not even be hype, he really might be that good, the dude hasn't even played a single down yet.

[Eaglesfan27]

its reggie bush. great player with one of the three best offensive lines in modern football in front of him. all this draft highlights are of him not getting touched, yet people talk about him like he's the best prospect to come out since jim brown, and no one even questioned it. he's at his best after his teammates have already done their job.

He doesn't get touched because he fakes guys out of their jocks with amazing cuts. Sure, he had a very good offensive line, but he also made many runs truly great with amazing cuts. It is WAY too early to say that he is overhyped. He might live up to it in the NFL.

[stevew]

Steve Nash. 2 straight questionable MVP awards. His teams haven't done shit in the playoffs during his career. He's never even lead a team to the Finals. Plus he's funny looking.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I'm going to defend Nash a little bit. His MVP wins are really the result of winning against a poor lot. 10-15 years ago, he is not winning anything.

[IMetTrentGreen]

He doesn't get touched because he fakes guys out of their jocks with amazing cuts. Sure, he had a very good offensive line, but he also made many runs truly great with amazing cuts. It is WAY too early to say that he is overhyped. He might live up to it in the NFL.

if you actually watched him play you would be surprised how few people get "faked out of their jocks." vince young shook more people last season than bush did in his entire usc career. that is not hyperbole. bush actually went down on first contact an awful lot for someone who is supposed to redefine the position as we know it. first contact comes a lot faster in the nfl, and even faster when you take him out of the cocoon created by having 10 teammates each better than anyone on the defense.

plus, if he's the best. player. evar. why didn't his coaches even have him on the field on the most important play of their season? why did his own coaches let someone else carry the ball half the time? why did they even bother with that fancy passing game of theirs?

all bush is doing is taking credit for the job his coordinators and oline do. he's a really good player. im not about to argue that he isn't. doesn't change that he has been hyped more than any draftee that i can remember in my lifetime, and that he's playing a position that is the least difficult to fill in all of professional sports.

[oykib]

I'm going to defend Nash a little bit. His MVP wins are really the result of winning against a poor lot. 10-15 years ago, he is not winning anything.

Poor lot?

LeBron was only the third player in history to average 27/7/7 last year. He was 31.5/6.5/7 this year. Both years he's been to only difference between the Cavs being a lottery team and a contender.

Kobe averaged thirty-five a game this year and had two of the most amazing games that anyone's ever put up. Like James, he's pretty much the only thing going on his team.

Billups has comparable stats to Nash this year if we adjust for thee fact that he doesn't play in such a wide open offense. Plus, he is a great defender.

Nash is a good ballpalyer. But he hasn't been in the top five either of the years that he's won the award. I could go on about better ballplayers, too.

Shaq was much better last year. KG wasn't going to win because he was on a losing ballclub, but he had the best season last year. Stoudamire is the best player on that Suns club when he's healthy, which he was all season last year.

Hell, Elton brand has probably been better both years, and was definitely better this year.