OT -- This is sick and wrong [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

Chief Rum

02-02-2003, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by andy m
ok, so are you out there mourning the deaths of many innocent children who have died because of the sanctions that have been in place on that country? will you be sad if there is a war and saddam dies, or will you be happy? what do you expect? you hate iraq, they hate you back. get a clue.

While I agree with your point that we should expect this from them, I love the way you point the fault for sanctions at one of the countries that instituted it (the U.S.), rather than on the government and head of that government that brought those sanctions on themselves by invading Kuwait. Or did you just skip that part of Persian Gulf war history?

Yeah, so Saddam works it out so the sanctions hurts his people instead of his own rather extensive waistline, after saving his own ass by agreeing to it--and it's the U.S.'s fault that innocent children are dying? Nice. I love it when someone hates a country so much (and, yes, you do hate the U.S., I have been reading your anti-American rhetoric here for years now) that they choose to actively ignore someone who is so apparently evil and twisted to point all fingers at the U.S.

Truly disgusting. Get a clue for once all right?

Chief Rum

Chief Rum

02-02-2003, 03:36 AM

dola,

Oh, and BTW, would you please find me a quote from an American from a reputable news service such as Reuters (which did the reporting on the Iraqi quote) where the American says he's happy that innocent children are dying of starvation in Iraq?

I would love to see that. :rolleyes:

Chief Rum

Dutch

02-02-2003, 03:49 AM

Andy M,

you supported those sanctions for 12 years and now our respective governments are finally saying, "Enough is enough" and folks who supported those sanctions for 12 years are aghast at the possibilities of a 2 month military conflict? Have you been asleep since the Gulf War?

This impending war is a means to an end. Thank god you are not in charge of the U.K. what would your policy be? "1-2-3-4, we don't need your stinkin' war. 5-6-7-8, Saddam's cool, it's the civies we hate! Goooo Sanctions!!!"

Open your eyes.

Ben E Lou

02-02-2003, 05:06 AM

oh....i guess i should have looked around before starting another thread about this.....i just read about it this morning, and came over here with steam coming out of my ears. The AJC is reporting an even longer quote. Check the thread called "bastards."

ACStrider

02-02-2003, 07:36 AM

I added my $.02 at the other thread as well. Like I said in the other one, I don't really intend to jumpstart another "war in Iraq" debate, I'm only trying to show a little perspective to the issue.

IMetTrentGreen

02-02-2003, 10:32 AM

Comments like this won't win favor from anyone.

except iran, saudi arabia, the palestines, cuba, pakistan, yemen, and probably some i'm forgetting

panerd

02-02-2003, 10:39 AM

So there are at least two idiots over in Iraq. And this isn't true in America? Read a post by Hornsmaniac or Fritz some time.

sachmo71

02-02-2003, 10:46 AM

I know some people in this country who would say the same sort of thing if this had happened to Iraq. You have to accept that maybe they don't like us as much as we don't like them. We have a large army just itching for a chance to swoop down on their coutry and destroy thier leadership. Maybe some bitterness toward us is understood?

Buddy Grant

02-02-2003, 01:58 PM

These kind of news reports make good media in NA, I am sure middle east newspapers quote anti-iraq comments all the time for the same reason. Why is anyone surprised at this?

Kosta

02-02-2003, 06:11 PM

Some of you have short memories... there were disgusting posts on this very forum not very long ago about "nuking towel heads" and the like....

Sounds to me like some parts of your media (US) is just looking for excuses to justify an unjustifiable war....

And Chief Rum, the label of "anti-american" that you love to throw around to anyone that disagrees with your viewpoint is ludicrous. Or perhaps it is just more of the "you are either with us or against us" idiocy permeating from your government.

Fritz

02-02-2003, 06:19 PM

Man, it must be nice living in places like Canada, the UK, and Austrailia where you can slash military spending because the US will keep you covered.

dawgfan

02-02-2003, 06:21 PM

"We are happy that it broke up," government employee Abdul Jabbar al-Quraishi said. "God wants to show that his might is greater than the Americans. They have encroached on our country. God is avenging us," he said.

This quote reminds me an awful lot of Falwell's after 9-11 that blamed the attack on the homosexuals, lesbians and other sinners in this country.

Look, you can go to any country and find idiots saying stupid things. Do you really think that if/when the US attacks Iraq that you wouldn't be able to find people in this country cheering the deaths of innoncent Iraqis? As Kosta points out, there have been a few posts on this board where people suggest we should just nuke the whole country.

Any reasonable person acknowledges tradgedy when it happens, regardless of who it happens to. Unfortunately there are a sizable number of people in this world that aren't reasonable.

What I find arrogant is how so many in this country seem to think that we as a group of people are morally superior in every way, that simply by dint of being American that we are incapable of being wrong. Questioning the decisions and directions of our country isn't un-American or un-patriotic - it is in fact the very prinicple upon which we stand.

Jets80

02-02-2003, 06:44 PM

Dawgfan.. I am one of those idiots saying stupid things. Call me an idiot but i believe what i say.

I hate Iraq and their people. I wish death apon all of their women and children. they are the enemy. If they even had a space shuttle and it blew up i would be happy and cheer. What a good feeling knowing that when ever we want we can go in and blow them up.

Chief Rum

02-02-2003, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Kosta
And Chief Rum, the label of "anti-american" that you love to throw around to anyone that disagrees with your viewpoint is ludicrous. Or perhaps it is just more of the "you are either with us or against us" idiocy permeating from your government.

Kosta, you and andy m are distinctly anti-American. I'm sorry if that label doesn't go well with you, but you are. I have yet to see you applaud a single action by the U.S. in anything. andy m as well.

You both regularly come up with anti-american rhetoric and use biased news sources to show negative views of our actions. You never even attempt to show any objectivity whatsoever.

I don't know what we did to you guys or how we pissed you off so much, and I'm sorry you feel that way. But the label is distinctly true, whether you like it or not.

You are against the actions that the U.S. takes. You actively seek to oppose its every action verbally. You rip on America in threads like these with every chance you get. Just witness some of the "civil" descriptions you gave of defensive American posters in that last Iraq thread. Someone said that thread was civil after all that. I didn't say anything at the time, but that shocked me, because they clearly completely forgot your rants in more than one post in that thread, saying things that were completely uncalled for.

You say I am following the "you're with us or you're against us" theme of the American government. I find that ironic, because the one thing that stood out to from that last thread was how you basically incorrectly labelled anyone who happened to disagree with you.

Remember this quote:

"Now I remember why I try and avoid these kind of threads... enjoy your war Fritz. Make sure you tune into CNN regularly and cheer as the cruise missles blow the fucking brains out of those scummy Arab bastards... with a bit of luck you'll hit a few hospitals and schools.... screaming kids with their arms blown off will delight you."

Congratulations, you got us all pinned. Mr. Pot, Kettle calling.

You throw any objectivity out the window when you call our Secretary of Defense "Dumsfeld" and considering your constant assumptions that our President is dumb from, of all things, media. I find that last one particularly funny, because you rush out to find any media sources that support your opinion, and throw them out there like "it's been printed or broadcats, so it's fact", but then you turn around and blast the U.S. media for trying to "justify the war". LMAO. You are such a hypocrite, it's appalling.

Our differences are irreconciliable, IMO. You are so blinded by your hatred for the U.S. foreign policy, that you can't even see the difference between death due to accident/negligence and active murder. Actually, correction, you can, and we all know you can, but you won't, because to do so would be to give us a fair point in this debate, and you hate us too much to do that. Or maybe it's because your entire psychology or even value system is based on your personal need to always be right. I don't know.

All I know is that you are so far from being objective about anything regarding the U.S., that your opinions have no value to me whatsoever. If you showed any reasoning or any moment of consideration of the debate points or opinion of those who disagree with you, or if took even one second to look for evidence on both sides of the fence and make a measured, rational choice for yourself, then I would take you seriously. But you do none of these things. You have an instant knee-jerk reaction to any American-born decision, and it's that you are against it.

No, sir, you are not my enemy just because you disagree with my government, as you would like to classify me as doing. I don't fall into labels that easy because I actually do use rationality and logic to come to a decision, and as a result I end up having both liberal and conservative views.

I see merit in most arguments. But I do not see cheering for joy over the suffering of others as a good thing, in any circumstance. From Iraqi or from Americans or from anyone.

And, I'm sorry, but if you can't see that those Iragi citizens quoted in that article are dead wrong for feeling as they do, then, you, sir, are a blind fool with a morally bankrupt system of values.

Chief Rum

panerd

02-02-2003, 07:09 PM

Chief Rum

02-02-2003, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Jets80
Dawgfan.. I am one of those idiots saying stupid things. Call me an idiot but i believe what i say.

I hate Iraq and their people. I wish death apon all of their women and children. they are the enemy. If they even had a space shuttle and it blew up i would be happy and cheer. What a good feeling knowing that when ever we want we can go in and blow them up.

You see, Jets, this is exactly why we are hated so much. Because we do so much hating.

You are not an idiot. You are a hater. I would rather be an idiot myself. But since that is usually a genetic choice, that's out of our hands. Hatred is not. I don't hate the Iraqi people. I don't even hate Saddam.

I have, however, come to the conclusion that Saddam may very well hate me and my country and what I stand for. I have also come to conclusion that he cares very little for the international community or his own people, except for when he needs to display such to get what he can from either of them. I also have an inordinate sense that when you make an agreement, you stick to it or suffer the consequences. Hussein made an agreement 12 years ago that he is repeatedly violated. A world without punishment is anarchy, so Hussein's time has come.

It is always hard to decide to go to war. For your own people. For the ones against whom you battle. So much is at risk. But you have to measure the risks against the benefits of war. Or to be more exact, the consequences of going to war against the consequences of NOT going to war. It comes down to a simple +/- breakdown really, as cold as that may seem. Sometimes, the most emotional, pivotal decisions actually need an absence of emotion, because to approach it with such is to potentially lead you down the wrong path, perhaps leading to, worst of all, unnecessary deaths.

So don't hate the Iraqi people, who have done nothing but suffer under the dictatorship of Hussein and who only support him out of fear and ethnocentricity. Don't even hate Saddam himself. Just view him as a person who only wishes to bring ill on his own people, and the international community, for he has proven that for both. Wish for the removal of Saddam not because you hate him, but because you see the world as a better place without him. I do. And when I go to the 7-11 near my store and see an Arab behind the counter giving me change for a 12-pack of Pepsi, I don't sit there imagining he is an Iraqi spy or a terrorist just because of his skin color. I sit there and smile and say hello because I know he wishes me well, and I him. He is not my enemy. In fact, he is almost certainly my ally. The Iraqi people are not my enemy. Saddam is the only enemy.

Chief Rum

Fritz

02-02-2003, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by Chief Rum
Saddam is the only enemy.

the only one?

Chief Rum

02-02-2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by panerd
Jets80 and Chief Rum are prefect for each other. Those bastards are dancing about our shuttle. But if it was thiers, well that's different.

I love this. So while I am composing my own message to Jets80, expressing my disgust for his viewpoint, I am yet again unfairly lumped together with him merely because you disagree with me. Wonderful, panerd. I love you, too.

In fact, disagreeing with the war is pro-American in a way, or at least it espouses a strong founding principle of our society (which didn't originate with us but is nonetheless quite important): the freedom of expression. The freedom to express any opinion, for or against anything.

I said that Kosta and andy m are anti-American not for their stance against the war, panerd, but for the longstanding string of disagreements with anything originating from the U.S. or its public actions. They have consistently spoke out against anything and everything we have done for two years now. To me, this is anti-American.

I don't see why it matters, though. It's just my opinion, and the only way it even impinges upon me is that it goes directly into how I value their opinions (which is not higly, because I do not see either as being capable of unbiased reason on these issues--they have never, ever shown one bit of impartiality). And besides, Kosta is Australian and andy m, I believe is either Scottish or British. What is it to them that they are anti-American? It is not their country, and they are free to hate us all they want to. But I am free to discount their opinions as well, when I feel their stances cannot be trusted because of the inability to be logical or even-handed on the issues.

panerd, you are not anti-american to my knowledge. I don't actually even know if you're against the war, although I'm guessing from your quickness to lump me and Jets together that you are. You don't have a history of being anti-American, so I have no factual basis upon which to label you as such.

So, please, next time note the differences between my post and Jets. And more importantly, spend even a little time trying to understand what I am saying (so that for instance, you won't make yourself look foolish by incorrectly equating my label of anti-american with anti-war), rather than automatically getting all riled up because you don't agree with me. You saw red, so you failed to even actually bother to read what I wrote.

Chief Rum

Chief Rum

02-02-2003, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
the only one?

That's a good point, Fritz. Within the context of an Iraqi-American war, yes, I view him as, relatively, the only enemy. The problem is he controls a whole lot of Iraqi soldiers.

Obviously, we have enemies all over the world, and we will have to decide what we will do with them one-by-one. And we will never reach the end of it, of course, which calls into question the futility of even attempting to do so. To not do so, though, might even bring more harm, though, so we must at least attempt to resolve our differences with as many of our enemies as we can. Unfortunately, sometimes those differences can only be resolved through direct conflict. In an ideal world this would not be so, but we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a big, evil, practical world where everyone is essentially out for themselves. So we must decide what is important to us and go forward to as best preserve it without bankrupting our moral system (or as close to it as possible, although many would say this is impossible).

Chief Rum

Fritz

02-02-2003, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Chief Rum
That's a good point, Fritz. Within the context of an Iraqi-American war, yes, I view him as, relatively, the only enemy. The problem is he controls a whole lot of Iraqi soldiers.

If he died all of a sudden from natural causes what do you think would happen? What would have happened before the recent buildup?

Chief Rum

02-02-2003, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
If he died all of a sudden from natural causes what do you think would happen? What would have happened before the recent buildup?

I don't know really. But I would hope that whomever took over might not be so interested in developing WMD, or supporting terrorism, or misleading the international community, or hating America. Or maybe I would hope that he or she (probably he, since I believe Iraqi society is far more patriarchal than we are, and we're not that great at avoiding it ourselves) would actually love and care for his own people. That he would see that war can only bring harm to Iraq and its people. And that ignoring UN resolutions only leads to continued sanctions which hurt his people both in the general sense of economy, right down to the very food that is available for their children to eat.

Peace is the best chance we all have. I don't think Saddam would choose a path that would end in peace. But his successor might. And as long as an aggressive ruler of Iraq is in place who only wishes ill upon the U.S., the possibility of war has to exist, because of the consequences of not doing a thing.

Chief Rum

Jets80

02-02-2003, 08:16 PM

You call me a hater..I disagree. 99% of all americans feel the same way I do but I am not afraid to speak my mind and say what i feel. Okay...so those crazy MFer's in the middle east are the only people allowed to hate as they burn our flag..cheer as the WTC falls and the Space Shuttle crashes. But you say it is wrong for me to hate those who hate me! Like the bumper sticker on my jeep says. "Fuck a Liberal"

Chief Rum

02-02-2003, 08:38 PM

It is wrong for you to hate, period. I understand why you feel as you do, but I also believe that such generalized hatred as you feel is responsible for much of the bigotry and racism that has plagued our country's history. But I guess we can't help how we feel.

BTW, I don't think it's because people are afraid to speak. The real fact is that nowhere near 99% agree with you. I would likely agree that maybe even as high a percentage as that has some definite negative issues with Iraq, but I wouldn't say the feelings of sheer hatred are so strong in so large a percentage of the people.

Heck, half of them disagree with the war drum effort for political reasons alone. I think that's a stupid reason to oppose a possible war, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

I would say there is general negativity fostered by a constant media barrage on the issues (and Western leaning), the actions of terrorists, the actions of Saddam and the people of Iraq themselves, and the actions of ourown government against those other actions. There is a lot of fear, both for war and for the consequences of not having one, and there is anger, at all parties involved, for getting us to this point. But that does not lead to outright hatred by all, and it would be foolish for you to assume that so many others are so ready to hate as you are.

Chief Rum

sachmo71

02-02-2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Jets80
You call me a hater..I disagree. 99% of all americans feel the same way I do but I am not afraid to speak my mind and say what i feel. Okay...so those crazy MFer's in the middle east are the only people allowed to hate as they burn our flag..cheer as the WTC falls and the Space Shuttle crashes. But you say it is wrong for me to hate those who hate me! Like the bumper sticker on my jeep says. "Fuck a Liberal"

Yikes. What does your bumper sticker have to do with hate? I am drawing conclusions, but I'll bet they aren't the ones you intended.

lynchjm24

02-02-2003, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Jets80
You call me a hater..I disagree. 99% of all americans feel the same way I do but I am not afraid to speak my mind and say what i feel. Okay...so those crazy MFer's in the middle east are the only people allowed to hate as they burn our flag..cheer as the WTC falls and the Space Shuttle crashes. But you say it is wrong for me to hate those who hate me! Like the bumper sticker on my jeep says. "Fuck a Liberal"

Thank God Jets80 is here to speak for those of us who are to afraid to speak our minds.

panerd

02-02-2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Chief Rum

panerd, you are not anti-american to my knowledge. I don't actually even know if you're against the war, although I'm guessing from your quickness to lump me and Jets together that you are. You don't have a history of being anti-American, so I have no factual basis upon which to label you as such.

Chief Rum

Actually I not anti-American or Anti-war at all. I am very much in favor of the war, but for different reasons than hating Arabs or wanting oil.

1. I think back to how I felt around 10:30 on Sept. 11th. There were three known aerial attacks and the trade centers were just starting to collapse. There were rumors that there were still other jets in the air. I was scared. My work was shut down, hell most of the country was shut down. This wasn't Columbine or the Oklahoma City bombing where we watched at lunch and when we got home. This literally stopped the country. I remember how Geogre Bush came on television later that week and denounced the axis of evil. I dislike Bush and think he is very much panders to the rich, but at that moment I was with him. He is our leader and Al Quida is our enemy.

2. That brings me to my second point. I am a teacher, a pretty damned good one at that. And nothing frustrates me more than experts telling me how to do my job. I hear idiots like Bill O' Reilly talk about testing and charter schools and get pissed off. (Like taking away good kids and adding less days of instruction is going to actually help schools) Most teachers know what they are doing and most of the public seems to doubt that. I feel the same way about Bush. I am certain that Bush and his advisors know 10000X what me and any other idiot on this board knows. So I trust Bush to fight this war and don't ever want to experiance something like 9-11 again.

Hindsight is 20/20 and my liberal friends who like to use it are wrong here. (I am a democrat by the way) I trust Bush and the military and hope to God that he is right. And if he is later proven wrong (ie He made up information for oil or what have you) then he will be called on it. So let's get in there and win this thing.

But I just hope people realize that a lot more than 7 heroes are going to do in this war fighting for the United States and they had better be prepared for some of the friends and family to come home in body bags. Let's hope it is for a good cause.

KirbyPuckett

02-02-2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Jets80
You call me a hater..I disagree. 99% of all americans feel the same way I do but I am not afraid to speak my mind and say what i feel. Okay...so those crazy MFer's in the middle east are the only people allowed to hate as they burn our flag..cheer as the WTC falls and the Space Shuttle crashes. But you say it is wrong for me to hate those who hate me! Like the bumper sticker on my jeep says. "Fuck a Liberal"
I haven't heard anything like that before:
said I call you a hater.Explain your reasoning, .Oh now I understand it.OK with me too.Whoa. All of them?Oh now I understand it.Umm.
Morally wrong?Interesting comparison.Why are you using that kind of language?

Jets80

02-02-2003, 09:21 PM

That made no sense what so ever... please retype in english

dawgfan

02-02-2003, 09:27 PM

KirbyPuckett

02-02-2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Jets80
That made no sense what so ever... please retype in english
I think Jets80 is more than that makes sense to me though.Wow you are very polite.

JimJam19

02-02-2003, 10:11 PM

I was just reading through this thread, didnt read all of them but heres a little of what i wanna say.....

war involves casualties.....those arabs waged war against us by purposly bombing thousands of our innocent people......why dont we have the right to disarm them? they pose a threat to us, we need to eliminate all threats....sure its wrong if innocent iraqi's die....im not gonna lie to you, i could care less if they do, but it would be wrong....but like i said, war involves casualties, and if some of there innocent people die, so be it, thats war, and thats the world we live in and theres no denying it.....like the saying goes ...."tough shit"

MizzouRah

02-02-2003, 10:59 PM

I hate Iraq and their people. I wish death apon all of their women and children. they are the enemy. If they even had a space shuttle and it blew up i would be happy and cheer. What a good feeling knowing that when ever we want we can go in and blow them up.

You need some anger management classes and/or medication. This is why the world is a place of hatred and greed and moving towards extinction everyday.

You can nuke all of Iraq, but when the dust settles, who will we go after next? Do you think North Korea will let us threaten them with force?

Todd

sabotai

02-02-2003, 11:04 PM

I think some people's tone about the war (note, I said some) would change drastically if they thought at least some of the war was going to be fought on our land and that it was going to be some of our civilians being killed by bombs and stray bullets.

Not saying we shouldn't go to war or anything. Just a thought I had.

Easy Mac

02-02-2003, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by JimJam19
I was just reading through this thread, didnt read all of them but heres a little of what i wanna say.....

war involves casualties.....those arabs waged war against us by purposly bombing thousands of our innocent people......why dont we have the right to disarm them? they pose a threat to us, we need to eliminate all threats....sure its wrong if innocent iraqi's die....im not gonna lie to you, i could care less if they do, but it would be wrong....but like i said, war involves casualties, and if some of there innocent people die, so be it, thats war, and thats the world we live in and theres no denying it.....like the saying goes ...."tough shit"

This is why I disagree with war, mainly because of the way it is being propogated.

People lump midlle eastern people together by calling them Arabs. There is a huge difference between those that flew planes and those we are disarming. The ones that killed Americans were (for the most part, not sure on all nationalities) Saudi's, not Iraq. By your logic, if we should attack anyone, it should be Saudi Arabia, not Saddam.

Saddam has yet to attack America. At this point, Saddam is little threat to us, but mostly to our allies (Israel, Turkey, Kuwait...). Could he be, anything is possible.

Its this misinformation that Iraq is the cause of 9/11, or that all Arabs shoud be grouped together as terrorists regardless of nationality is absurd. Some high ranking officials have said (so far) that the links from 9/11 to Iraq are tenuous. Does that mean they don't exist, no, but that there are far more links to even high ranking Saudi's.

Yet, they live. I am not saying Saddam isn't reprehensible, but its the belief in an eye for an eye, when the eye's in question aren't even the same, that makes a war supposed on these truths wrong.

And as to the Iraqis celebrating, there are idiots everywhere. THere are Americans selling parts of the shuttle on Ebay for Christs sake. To me that is just as morally offensive as some idiot sheep who gives the American media a soundbite (which was probably made for his own safety). Hell, there are probably people in America who feel the same way about the explosion as the Iraqi quoted above.

To me, I could go a lifetime without ever having to imagine this kind of accident occuring again. They probably barely, if at all, had time to make peace with anything (god or no). A truly horriblea way to die, and a feel for the families who have to suffer through this ordeal.

Schmidty

02-02-2003, 11:24 PM

I am going to admit right off the bat that even though I haven't, and won't, read most of this thread, I need to get something off of my chest.

The moldy, over used rhetoric, "Millions of people die every day; therefore, mourning over a highly visible tragedy is wrong and hypocritical." is an intellectually lazy stance.

Compassion is compassion. If you can pick and choose compassion to fit your political view, then you aren't truly being compassionate.

dawgfan

02-02-2003, 11:25 PM

Wow, where to begin?

Originally posted by JimJam19
I was just reading through this thread, didnt read all of them but heres a little of what i wanna say.....

war involves casualties.....those arabs waged war against us by purposly bombing thousands of our innocent people

You are aware that "those arabs" that were responsible for 9-11 were a collection of extremist Islamic fundamentalists of various ethnicties, right? Afghanis, Saudis, Egyptians, Yemeni, etc. are nationalities that make up Al Qaeda. You are also aware that many people in the countries that supply the members of Al Qaeda oppose what that organization stands for and did not support or exalt in that attack?

......why dont we have the right to disarm them? they pose a threat to us, we need to eliminate all threats

Despite some tenuous claims by our administration, there's no clear evidence that Iraq had anything to do with the 9-11 tragedy, and it's very questionable the extent to which there has been any cooperation between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. Iraq stands for nearly everything Al Qaeda opposes - it is a secular country with tremendous Western influences, and was engaged in a long war with Iran, a country that defined what Al Qaeda stands for.

The issue with Iraq has to do with their violation of U.N. weapons sanctions against them in the wake of the Gulf War. If they are found to be in violation, then we do have a right to use military force.

....sure its wrong if innocent iraqi's die....im not gonna lie to you, i could care less if they do, but it would be wrong....but like i said, war involves casualties, and if some of there innocent people die, so be it, thats war, and thats the world we live in and theres no denying it.....like the saying goes ...."tough shit"

What a lousy line of thinking. You claim to admit it would be wrong for innocents to die, then in the same breath say you don't care if they do. What does that say about your morals?

It chills me to know the extent to which many people lack empathy for others. No wonder why this world is such a violent place. Have you ever spoken with a someone from the middle east, or someone who has spent time there? Do you have any idea what the Islamic faith is all about, or any awareness that there are a number of fundamentalist sub-sects that twist the values of that religion as much as the KKK twists those of Christianity?

Or do you simply lump anyone with dark skin who lives anywhere from Afghanistan to Egypt into one big pile of suspicion and fear without bothering to learn anything about them?

Anthony

02-02-2003, 11:34 PM

i think the real shocker here is that my RWBL team, mid-market Minnesota Twins, are about to sign one of the 3 highly-coveted free agent pitchers that has received so much hype. CC Sabathia is showing the Twins much love. he's gonna break the bank, but we'll worry about that after he's signed on the dotted line.

Anthony

02-02-2003, 11:39 PM

i wonder what the collection of infidel oil-farmers will think of God when we fill their night-sky with a wonderful assortment of highly sophisticated bombs.

i wonder what they'll think of God when i'm filling my tank up with $0.75 cent a gallon gasoline. gonna love that american deep-discounted gas.

Easy Mac

02-02-2003, 11:42 PM

It'd be better than the fucking 15 cent hike in gas over the past 3 days here.

Of course, if Saddam has really wired his oil like reports say, then we might invalidate the whole reason for war. :insert not existant smileys: p

Neuqua

02-03-2003, 12:46 AM

Wow.

That's it. That's all I have to say.

I'm deeply saddened, and I haven't even read the entire thread.

"I hate Iraq and their people. I wish death apon all of their women and children. they are the enemy. If they even had a space shuttle and it blew up i would be happy and cheer. What a good feeling knowing that when ever we want we can go in and blow them up."

"war involves casualties.....those arabs waged war against us by purposly bombing thousands of our innocent people......why dont we have the right to disarm them? they pose a threat to us, we need to eliminate all threats....sure its wrong if innocent iraqi's die....im not gonna lie to you, i could care less if they do, but it would be wrong....but like i said, war involves casualties, and if some of there innocent people die, so be it, thats war, and thats the world we live in and theres no denying it.....like the saying goes ...."tough shit" "

"You call me a hater..I disagree. 99% of all americans feel the same way I do but I am not afraid to speak my mind and say what i feel. Okay...so those crazy MFer's in the middle east are the only people allowed to hate as they burn our flag..cheer as the WTC falls and the Space Shuttle crashes. But you say it is wrong for me to hate those who hate me! Like the bumper sticker on my jeep says. "Fuck a Liberal" "

Am I so different from others when I say that I don't want innocents to die? Yes, ok, we lost thousands of innocent people in 9/11, and we lost who knows how many more through terrorist acts in our history...

... And so we respond to that by killing the innocents of another country?

Terrorists kill innocent people. We should be targetting those whom threaten the innocent. Nuking Iraq is absurd, our main attention should be on capturing and eliminating Saddam and Al Queda, etc. Do you honestly think you're in the 99% tile? How could I be so wrong about those around me? Is everyone so obsessed with killing? This is exactly why we're in the position in the first place. You are no different than Saddam, except you have no power.

I have, and will always be a peaceful person. To a fault, I feel that in the end good will always prevail. I just never realized that I was a part of such a minority. So sad.

The world has become a dangerous place to live in. I don't know what to say.

I'm 19 years old, a Hindu-American. Maybe I just don't know any better.

astralhaze

02-03-2003, 02:40 AM

I think everybody involved in this thread should go to your local video store and rent "Born On the Fourth Of July". Seriously.

Fritz

02-03-2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by astralhaze
I think everybody involved in this thread should go to your local video store and rent "Born On the Fourth Of July". Seriously.

Why would ask anyone to rent that tripe?

I guess you could could use it under the leg of a wobbly table, but an old newspaper would do the trick and you would not have to return it in three days.

JonInMiddleGA

02-03-2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Fritz
Why would ask anyone to rent that tripe?

Dang Fritz, you're on a roll.

Bee

02-03-2003, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by sabotai
I think some people's tone about the war (note, I said some) would change drastically if they thought at least some of the war was going to be fought on our land and that it was going to be some of our civilians being killed by bombs and stray bullets.

Not saying we shouldn't go to war or anything. Just a thought I had.

Of course, if a ruler as aggressive as Saddam was close enough to attack the US and was trying to develop WMD, he would have been dealt with a long time ago.

Marmel

02-03-2003, 11:48 AM

Have we turned the middle east into a sheet of glass yet?

Fritz

02-03-2003, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Marmel
Have we turned the middle east into a sheet of glass yet?

Gosh I hope not! Someone might get cut and sue the US.

Easy Mac

02-03-2003, 11:57 AM

Well, seeing as how some in the US are suing Saudi Arabia, I don't see how it would be entirely out of the realm of possibility.

astralhaze

02-03-2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
Why would ask anyone to rent that tripe?

I guess you could could use it under the leg of a wobbly table, but an old newspaper would do the trick and you would not have to return it in three days.

Well, I guess there are a few reasons, but number one would be that most people seem to think of war only in terms of politics and nations. War has very real human consequences, both on soldiers and civilians. This movie demonstrates this beautifuly. Oh yeah, and it is true.

Qwikshot

02-03-2003, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by astralhaze
Well, I guess there are a few reasons, but number one would be that most people seem to think of war only in terms of politics and nations. War has very real human consequences, both on soldiers and civilians. This movie demonstrates this beautifuly. Oh yeah, and it is true.

It is true in a Hollywood sort of way...plus wasn't it Oliver Stone written/directed, one of the U.S. major conspiracy theorists?

Not to knock the movie, it is good, but there has to be something better out there...

Fritz

02-03-2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by astralhaze
Oh yeah, and it is true.

Uh huh, just like Oliver Stone's JFK.

astralhaze

02-03-2003, 02:03 PM

Yes, it was a true story. It was based on the book by Ron Kovik, the protaganist of the story, who co-wrote the screenplay. I'm sure there were stretches of the truth, just like any movie that is based on a true story, but the key events are all true.

Kovik grew up dreaming of joining the marines and fighting the communists. Like most, he had very bad experiences in Vietnam and then was paralyzed. Later he became a very vocal and effective critic of the war in Vietnam and continues speaking out against war today.

TestAmenT

02-03-2003, 02:11 PM

Whew....lot of anger in this thread. =)

Fritz

02-03-2003, 02:15 PM

Israeli troops killed a Palestinian child in front of his family today.

Israeli troops defended themselves against a Palestinian armed with a grenade today.

Both could be a factual description of the same event.

astralhaze

02-03-2003, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Fritz
Israeli troops killed a Palestinian child in front of his family today.

Israeli troops defended themselves against a Palestinian armed with a grenade today.

Both could be a factual description of the same event.

No kidding? You could stand to lose that air of superiority.

JimJam19

02-03-2003, 02:25 PM

About my thread, im not saying its all Arabs, although thats how i made it out to sound, hell i dont even know all about the middle east and all that crap.....also im not saying i wish death upon all the middle east people, i was just stating the obvious, in war, people die, whether it be a soldier or a civilian, thats the way it is.....and if it takes that to disarm someone who poses a threat to me, so be it........honestly, if there is going to be a huge debate about civilians dying during war, its a load of crap, bc that can be applied to anything in everyday life.......why not outlaw handguns and all kinds of firearms? that kills innocent people all yr long and for no reason, at least during war we are eliminating a threat, there is a reason behind it.

Fritz

02-03-2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by astralhaze
No kidding? You could stand to lose that air of superiority.

please clarify your observation.

KirbyPuckett

02-03-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by JimJam19
About my thread, im not saying its all Arabs, although thats how i made it out to sound, hell i dont even know all about the middle east and all that crap.....also im not saying i wish death upon all the middle east people, i was just stating the obvious, in war, people die, whether it be a soldier or a civilian, thats the way it is.....and if it takes that to disarm someone who poses a threat to me, so be it........honestly, if there is going to be a huge debate about civilians dying during war, its a load of crap, bc that can be applied to anything in everyday life.......why not outlaw handguns and all kinds of firearms? that kills innocent people all yr long and for no reason, at least during war we are eliminating a threat, there is a reason behind it.
Oh yeah, we were talking about
his or her thread im not saying its all Arabs although that is how he or she made it out to sound hell he or she do not even know all about the middle east and all that crap
.What are you saying?I'm not sure I understand the implication of that.If there ever is, I will let you know. Aren't you usually honest?Becuase you asked me to."Soon I think" kills innocent people all yr long and for no reason at least during war we are eliminating a threat there is a reason behind it ?
I get Soon I think.

astralhaze

02-03-2003, 02:34 PM

You just stated the obvious in a manner which indicated that no one else would realize it but you. Of course, that is par for the course.

Fritz

02-03-2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by astralhaze
You just stated the obvious in a manner which indicated that no one else would realize it but you. Of course, that is par for the course.

I did? It is?

Chief Rum

02-03-2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by astralhaze
You just stated the obvious in a manner which indicated that no one else would realize it but you. Of course, that is par for the course.

I'm sorry, astralhaze, but I think you're extending your own bias on Fritz. I sense no superiority at all. It is simply a collection of statements that make the point that two statements, both factually true, of the same situation, can yield completely different viewpoints and outrages. I am not sure if he is extending that to the media coverage of the Middle East or to the more recent Kovik screenplay/book discussions, but his point seems valid to me. I detect no "superiority" in it at all, and would hypothesize that you feel that way because you probably disagree with Fritz enough to actively dislike him.

Chief Rum

astralhaze

02-03-2003, 02:59 PM

Of course his point is valid. That is why I said it was obvious. Anyone without intelectual blinders or willful ignorance realizes that. I don't actively dislike Fritz, but the way he constantly comes back with one liners rather than actually engaging in discussion and stating his opinion is quite condescending. It indicates that he is above the conversation and doesn't need to explain anything, his one comment should suffice.

Fritz

02-03-2003, 03:24 PM

Why does one need to be verbose to make a point or to communicate?

Chief Rum

02-03-2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by astralhaze
Of course his point is valid. That is why I said it was obvious. Anyone without intelectual blinders or willful ignorance realizes that. I don't actively dislike Fritz, but the way he constantly comes back with one liners rather than actually engaging in discussion and stating his opinion is quite condescending. It indicates that he is above the conversation and doesn't need to explain anything, his one comment should suffice.

Then state something like this next time. Don't just throw out "air of superiority" and be done with it. Your meaning is no more clear than Fritz's in that case, and I would say you might even be then guilty of the very same "superiority" that you perceive in Fritz.

I still think that much of the "air of superiority" you perceive is entirely in your mind. Fritz does write with a lot of "confidence" but he is not alone in that category. You do the same, and many others here do as well, including myself I would imagine.

Chief Rum