A dozen 6-8 year olds accused of sexual assault.

[SirFozzie]

I have absolutely no witty quip to make for this one.. except to say.. THE FUCK????????

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/10/gradeschool.allegedassault.ap/index.html

ST. LOUIS, Missouri (AP) -- Twelve boys in the first and second grade at a St. Louis elementary school are accused of sexually assaulting a second-grade girl during recess, authorities said Tuesday.

One teacher who was supposed to be supervising the recess has been fired, and another suspended with pay, school superintendent Creg Williams said. Ten of the boys, ages 6 to 8, were suspended for the rest of the school year, and the other two received five-day, in-school suspensions.

No names were released.

The girl, who is 8, was unharmed physically but will not return for the rest of the school year. "We don't know what type of emotional scars it will have on the young lady," Williams said.

The incident happened Friday at Columbia Accelerated Community Educational Center, a school with 400 students in pre-kindergarten through sixth grade on the city's north side.

During the recess shortly after lunch, a student alerted a teacher when he saw several boys huddled around the girl who was on the ground.

Police turned the investigation over to juvenile authorities. A court official said the boys could face misdemeanor counts of sexual misconduct and assault.

[IwasHere]

What exactly makes this a Sexual Assault?

[SirFozzie]

guess what they were doing to the girl? I dunno.

[SunDevil]

"During the recess shortly after lunch, a student alerted a teacher when he saw several boys huddled around the girl who was on the ground."

I think people can get an idea of what sexual nature that this picture can present. Granted, this is the only sentence that can explain how this can be sexual assualt.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Local newspaper has more details & an update (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/194EFF0B6B6657328625716A00180C4B?OpenDocument)

One Columbia Elementary School teacher was fired and another suspended with pay for a lack of attentiveness that St. Louis schools Superintendent Creg Williams said led to a possible sexual assault on a school playground Friday.

Ten first- and second-grade boys thought to be responsible for the attack on an 8-year-old girl have been suspended for the rest of the school year, district officials said. Two others received in-school suspensions for five days each.

The two boys who got the lesser punishment kissed the girl, a district official said. Other boys held her down. Authorities were trying to determine the extent of the sexual contact. The victim's great-aunt said that based on her conversations with the girl and with her own son, who was at the school that day, she believed the boys were trying to poke their fingers into her and that the girl was fighting to keep her underpants on.

No charges had been filed, but all 12 boys - one 6-year-old, seven 7-year-olds and four 8-year-olds - are expected to be referred to the city's Family Court on misdemeanor charges of first-degree sexual misconduct and third-degree assault, said assistant court administrator Kathryn Herman.
...
The superintendent said he disciplined the teachers - who were on playground duty Friday - after meeting Monday with the girl's family and Columbia administrators.

"These individuals must be held accountable for the children left in their stead," Williams said at a Tuesday news conference. "I'm not messing around with this."

The victim's great-aunt, serving as a spokesperson for the family, said the family did not want the teachers involved fired because the family did not want the teachers' lives and careers ruined.

"We don't want an eye for an eye," the great-aunt said. "We just want this situation to be handled in the right way, and we want it in a timely manner."

That would mean a reprimand, a suspension and a stern lesson learned, she said, plus counseling for the boys involved.

[Schmidty]

Maybe they had their penises out or something. It said the girl was unharmed physically, so it was probably a "I'll show you mine, you show me yours", except the girl didn't want to.

[PackerFanatic]

Just fucking disgusting...the hell they teaching kids in school these days?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Subject to more details emerging, tenative props to the superintendent for taking action instead of trying to cover up the situation.

[CraigSca]

I don't know if I'd be as understanding as the great Aunt. If my daughter suffered an attempted sexual violation at recess A) I'd take her the hell out of that school. B) Sue the asses of the teachers who weren't doing their job C) Wonder where in the hell 6-8 year olds get the idea to do something like that.

[ISiddiqui]

:eek:

Holy crap! That poor girl :(.

[Toddzilla]

I don't know if I'd be as understanding as the great Aunt. If my daughter suffered an attempted sexual violation at recess A) I'd take her the hell out of that school. B) Sue the asses of the teachers who weren't doing their job C) Wonder where in the hell 6-8 year olds get the idea to do something like that.In keeping with today's FOFC theme, and being the parent of a little girl, I believe some ass-kickings would be in order as well.

[KevinNU7]

"We don't want an eye for an eye," the great-aunt said. "We just want this situation to be handled in the right way, and we want it in a timely manner."

This lady rocks

[Shkspr]

C) Wonder where in the hell 6-8 year olds get the idea to do something like that.

The boys probably hacked the XBox360 game Oblivion and saw a nipple texture. Thank god for the ESRB.

[IwasHere]

Local newspaper has more details & an update (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/194EFF0B6B6657328625716A00180C4B?OpenDocument)
The victim's great-aunt said that based on her conversations with the girl and with her own son, who was at the school that day, she believed the boys were trying to poke their fingers into her and that the girl was fighting to keep her underpants on.

I am pretty sure this is rape. No misdemeanor counts here. These boys should be facing serious chargers.

They knocked the girl down; then held her down as their friends took turns penetrating her with their fingers. I am pretty sure that is rape.

[rkmsuf]

I am pretty sure this is rape. No misdemeanor counts here. These boys should be facing serious chargers.

They knocked the girl down; then held her down as their friends took turns penetrating her with their fingers. I am pretty sure that is rape.

are you sure?

[IwasHere]

are you sure?No, but after reading the 2 articles that is the conclussion I came to.



At first I thought this was another Bull-Shit boy kisses girl on the playground story.

[CraigSca]

Based on Missouri state law (from hxxp://www.missouri.edu/~sls/sls/lc/wwwTips/SexOffenses.html (http://www.missouri.edu/~sls/sls/lc/wwwTips/SexOffenses.html)):

Section 566.010 Chapter Definitions
(1) "Deviate sexual intercourse" means any act involving the genitals of one person and the mouth, tongue, or anus of another person or a sexual act involving the penetration, however slight, of the male or female sex organ or the anus by a finger, instrument or object done for the purpose of arousing or gratifying the sexual desire of any person;

Section 566.060 Forcible sodomy
1. A person commits the crime of forcible sodomy if such person has deviate sexual intercourse with another person by the use of forcible compulsion. Forcible compulsion includes the use of a substance administered without a victim's knowledge or consent which renders the victim physically or mentally impaired so as to be incapable of making an informed consent to sexual intercourse.
2. Forcible sodomy or an attempt to commit forcible sodomy is a felony for which the authorized term of imprisonment is life imprisonment or a term of years not less than five years, unless in the course thereof the actor inflicts serious physical injury or displays a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument in a threatening manner or subjects the victim to sexual intercourse or deviate sexual intercourse with more than one person, in which case the authorized term of imprisonment is life imprisonment or a term of years not less than ten years.
Comment: Again, forcible compulsion can be: physical force that overcomes reasonable resistance, or a threat that places a person in reasonable fear of death, serious physical injury or kidnapping. This statute is used to prosecute forced deviate sex between two people, which is any form of sexual intercourse other than penile penetration of the vagina. Sexual intercourse with animals used to be included in this crime, but has since been removed and is not found in any other criminal statute.

Seems pretty clear to me, if they can prove this occurred.

[SirFozzie]

In keeping with today's FOFC theme, and being the parent of a little girl, I believe some ass-kickings would be in order as well.

If it was my girl, it wouldn't be ass-KICKINGs dealt out.. more like going Rambo :D

[rkmsuf]

No, but after reading the 2 articles that is the conclussion I came to.



At first I thought this was another Bull-Shit boy kisses girl on the playground story.

I am sure this is right.

[Bee]

Based on Missouri state law (from hxxp://www.missouri.edu/~sls/sls/lc/wwwTips/SexOffenses.html (http://www.missouri.edu/~sls/sls/lc/wwwTips/SexOffenses.html)):

Section 566.010 Chapter Definitions
(1) "Deviate sexual intercourse" means any act involving the genitals of one person and the mouth, tongue, or anus of another person or a sexual act involving the penetration, however slight, of the male or female sex organ or the anus by a finger, instrument or object done for the purpose of arousing or gratifying the sexual desire of any person;

Section 566.060 Forcible sodomy
1. A person commits the crime of forcible sodomy if such person has deviate sexual intercourse with another person by the use of forcible compulsion. Forcible compulsion includes the use of a substance administered without a victim's knowledge or consent which renders the victim physically or mentally impaired so as to be incapable of making an informed consent to sexual intercourse.
2. Forcible sodomy or an attempt to commit forcible sodomy is a felony for which the authorized term of imprisonment is life imprisonment or a term of years not less than five years, unless in the course thereof the actor inflicts serious physical injury or displays a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument in a threatening manner or subjects the victim to sexual intercourse or deviate sexual intercourse with more than one person, in which case the authorized term of imprisonment is life imprisonment or a term of years not less than ten years.
Comment: Again, forcible compulsion can be: physical force that overcomes reasonable resistance, or a threat that places a person in reasonable fear of death, serious physical injury or kidnapping. This statute is used to prosecute forced deviate sex between two people, which is any form of sexual intercourse other than penile penetration of the vagina. Sexual intercourse with animals used to be included in this crime, but has since been removed and is not found in any other criminal statute.

Seems pretty clear to me, if they can prove this occurred.

From what I read, it sounded like there wasn't penetration just the attempt (although it's not clear).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Did a quick look-up of the school involved ... most recent figures from the state DOE show over 97% of the students are free/reduced lunch eligible, with 5 yr figures ranging from 95% to 99.7%.

Free/Reduced are a commonly used indicator of the economics of a given school & those figures are pretty much the highest I've ever seen for any school anywhere I've looked. Based on that, I'm guessing this is one tough neighborhood (maybe one of our St.Louis FOFC'ers can fill in the blanks a little better).

[Pumpy Tudors]

I am sure that I know what rkmsuf is saying here.

[IwasHere]

Did a quick look-up of the school involved ... most recent figures from the state DOE show over 97% of the students are free/reduced lunch eligible, with 5 yr figures ranging from 95% to 99.7%.

Free/Reduced are a commonly used indicator of the economics of a given school & those figures are pretty much the highest I've ever seen for any school anywhere I've looked. Based on that, I'm guessing this is one tough neighborhood (maybe one of our St.Louis FOFC'ers can fill in the blanks a little better).
In other words the School will soon be getting the living Shit sued out of it.

[rkmsuf]

I am sure that I know what rkmsuf is saying here.

I was sure you did.

[FrogMan]

I am sure that I know what rkmsuf is saying here.

Maybe that IwasHere might be here but wasn't there when it happened and thus can't know for sure what really happened (see "They knocked the girl down; then held her down as their friends took turns penetrating her with their fingers.")

About the story, this is just awful.

FM

[Hawglaw]

Did a quick look-up of the school involved ... most recent figures from the state DOE show over 97% of the students are free/reduced lunch eligible, with 5 yr figures ranging from 95% to 99.7%.

Free/Reduced are a commonly used indicator of the economics of a given school & those figures are pretty much the highest I've ever seen for any school anywhere I've looked. Based on that, I'm guessing this is one tough neighborhood (maybe one of our St.Louis FOFC'ers can fill in the blanks a little better).

Your hunch is correct. The school is in a very rough part of the city.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Maybe that IwasHere might be here but wasn't there when it happened and thus can't know for sure what really happened (see "They knocked the girl down; then held her down as their friends took turns penetrating her with their fingers.")
I am sure that rkmsuf was just saying that he was sure.

(outside of the actual thread topic, there's a running joke going on here)

[rkmsuf]

I am sure that rkmsuf was just saying that he was sure.

(outside of the actual thread topic, there's a running joke going on here)

surely you jest

[FrogMan]

I am sure that rkmsuf was just saying that he was sure.

(outside of the actual thread topic, there's a running joke going on here)

then I'll step out of the joke. I don't run well when I don't read all the threads going on in one day ;)

FM

[Blade6119]

From what I read, it sounded like there wasn't penetration just the attempt (although it's not clear).
from what i gathered her underpants never came off, so rape isnt the case...attempted, maybe...but i dont see rape with underpants on and supposedly fingers and not penis if that politically correct to say

[Eaglesfan27]

Fingers penetrating is certainly rape. Also, underpants don't have to come off for penetration to occur.

[Bee]

The victim's great-aunt said that based on her conversations with the girl and with her own son, who was at the school that day, she believed the boys were trying to poke their fingers into her and that the girl was fighting to keep her underpants on.

I read this as saying they attempted, but didn't succeed in penetration. But like I said it's unclear and there was also mention that it's still being investigated.

[dubb93]

Also, underpants don't have to come off for penetration to occur.

ssshhhhhhhhhhh......don't tell blade that.

[Blade6119]

Fingers penetrating is certainly rape. Also, underpants don't have to come off for penetration to occur.
like bee said, i got the impression they were trying to get her underpants off, and trying to poke with their fingers..im not sure at 6-8 they have the capacity of knowing how to rape a girl yet, so im assuming they didnt actually penetrate.

ssshhhhhhhhhhh......don't tell blade that.
AHHHHH, my whole core belief system in life is crashing before my very eyes!! BLASPHEMY!!!! :p

[Samdari]

These boys should be facing serious chargers.

They're 8. While I think this is horrible, I am not sure how you do that.

[jeff061]

like bee said, i got the impression they were trying to get her underpants off, and trying to poke with their fingers..im not sure at 6-8 they have the capacity of knowing how to rape a girl yet, so im assuming they didnt actually penetrate.
One kid with an older brother, or really messed up parents, can learn this stuff without really knowing what it is exactly.

[cuervo72]

One kid with an older brother, or really messed up parents, can learn this stuff without really knowing what it is exactly.

Sure, and then if one kid starts doing something, other kids follow. That's how kids are, they don't think about what they're doing, they just follow along. 6-8 year olds, you often don't get a lot of reasoning skills there, not a lot of forethought regarding consequences.

[dubb93]

I think because of the ages you can't punish the kids criminally, or atleast in my mind you shouldn't. I think some serious court mandated school sponsored early sex education classes as well as crime and punishment classes should be given to these kids. They are 6-8, while they know right from wrong for the most part I'm sure they don't have good reasoning skills and many of the kids had no clue what was going on. Follow the leader type deal.

[Daimyo]

like bee said, i got the impression they were trying to get her underpants off, and trying to poke with their fingers..
and you don't consider that sexual assault?

[Blade6119]

and you don't consider that sexual assault?
Sexual assault, maybe..rape, no...i dont think they achieved either(underpants off or penetration...the article said trying, not doing), and the difference between rape and lower level sexual crimes is a big deal, regardless of age level.

[Blade6119]

dola, in reagrds to punishment...they are in the wrong 100%, but severity of punishment is now the key

[TroyF]

In other words the School will soon be getting the living Shit sued out of it.


No. In other words, even if the school does get the hell sued out of it, there won't be any money to give anyway. It's an incredibly poor school with incredibly poor kids attending the school.

It looks to me like the school is doing everything they possibly can and acting appropriatly in what they are doing.

[molson]

I grew up in a poor town and went to a poor school, and 6-8 year olds were definitly knowledgeable about this sort of thing, and though I never saw anything like this happen, I think it could have. When sexual knowledge outpaces social maturity, this stuff really doesn't surprise me (because that age group is very selfish, generally).

I'm not a Psychologist, so I won't attempt to rationalize why poorer kids in poorer areas are so advanced in their sexual knowledge, but I think that its at least possible that these incidents aren't a new phenomenon, but our vigilance in noticing it and stopping it is higher.

[Blade6119]

I grew up in a poor town and went to a poor school, and 6-8 year olds were definitly knowledgeable about this sort of thing, and though I never saw anything like this happen, I think it could have. When sexual knowledge outpaces social maturity, this stuff really doesn't surprise me (because that age group is very selfish, generally).

I'm not a Psychologist, so I won't attempt to rationalize why poorer kids in poorer areas are so advanced in their sexual knowledge, but I think that its at least possible that these incidents aren't a new phenomenon, but our vigilence in noticing it and stopping it is higher.
Wow...since they said that was first and second grade im just amazed...i didnt even think like a girl until the third grade, and even then it was like wow, what would it be like to hold her hand...interesting to hear different view points

[Axxon]

i didnt even think like a girl until the third grade,

And, do you still think like one now?

[molson]

Wow...since they said that was first and second grade im just amazed...i didnt even think like a girl until the third grade, and even then it was like wow, what would it be like to hold her hand...interesting to hear different view points

I don't think there's an actual attraction going on (even to the point of just wanting to hold hands), I think kids like this are just acting out on their sexual knowledge in the context of "teasing", with no comprehension as to why their actions are inappropriate. I can't imagine what kind of home these kids are coming from.

[gstelmack]

I think because of the ages you can't punish the kids criminally, or atleast in my mind you shouldn't. I think some serious court mandated school sponsored early sex education classes as well as crime and punishment classes should be given to these kids. They are 6-8, while they know right from wrong for the most part I'm sure they don't have good reasoning skills and many of the kids had no clue what was going on. Follow the leader type deal.

But at 6-8 you have *GOT* to understand "don't hurt someone" (you've been told not to hit your brother/sister/parent innumerable times) and have to understand that when another child is kicking/screaming to leave them alone. These kids are already screwed up in some fundamental way that they need to be separated from the general school population RIGHT NOW. I'll agree on possibly no criminal stuff, but they need something pretty serious drilled into them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't think there's an actual attraction going on (even to the point of just wanting to hold hands), I think kids like this are just acting out on their sexual knowledge in the context of "teasing", with no comprehension as to why their actions are inappropriate. I can't imagine what kind of home these kids are coming from.

From having a kid who is currently finishing up 2nd grade, I'd like to say that there's a lot more "sexual knowledge" in Pre-K these days than we probably had when I was in 5th grade. Now, some of this "knowledge" might be akin to a dog chasing a car but the girls in particular are quite savvy for their age (comparable to what my generation was probably 6-8 years later in school).

Some of the stuff that gets said by these kids, both bluntly and with more of a "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" approach can be awfully surprising. And, from my experiences substitute teaching for middle school ages nearly 20 years ago, I'm not really surprised. Those kids (grades 5-7) were at least as sexually aware & agressive before their teens than we were as we approached the end of high school.

[Axxon]

But at 6-8 you have *GOT* to understand "don't hurt someone" (you've been told not to hit your brother/sister/parent innumerable times) and have to understand that when another child is kicking/screaming to leave them alone. These kids are already screwed up in some fundamental way that they need to be separated from the general school population RIGHT NOW. I'll agree on possibly no criminal stuff, but they need something pretty serious drilled into them.

I don't believe that at that age most children can understand the concept of morality or right vs wrong. They have been told innumberable times but they don't understand why yet. They just know they can't do it when the parents are around.

[QuikSand]

And, do you still think like one now?

Asked and answered.

[DanGarion]

Just fucking disgusting...the hell they teaching kids in school these days?
Blame the parents not the school

[panerd]

The St. Louis media has been fucking up quite a few stories lately so forgive me if I wait a few days to get more facts about this case. Obviously the story if true is disgusting and unbelievable, but after a local FOX news vendetta (I don't know what else to call it) about one of my close friends aired last night "exclusively on FOX" I am starting to see how any mother fucker can write anything they want. The piece they ran actually made me physically ill last night. What a sad piece of shit news department they have that needs to run stories that effect people's livelihoods without even attempting to get their facts straight. (End rant)

[dubb93]

But at 6-8 you have *GOT* to understand "don't hurt someone" (you've been told not to hit your brother/sister/parent innumerable times) and have to understand that when another child is kicking/screaming to leave them alone. These kids are already screwed up in some fundamental way that they need to be separated from the general school population RIGHT NOW. I'll agree on possibly no criminal stuff, but they need something pretty serious drilled into them.

At my schools we always had in school isolation and a special techer for that. Pretty much all the students who were in trouble would be sent to a room that was set up where there was a desk inside cubicles. A teacher would go around and make sure they were keeping busy.

They should take these kids and keep them in school, but apart from everyone else. Have a special teacher teach them sex education early and then a member of the police teach them about crime and punishment so they now know why you shouldn't do things like this. Hell, make it a semester long type deal.

[Blade6119]

And, do you still think like one now?
*think i liked one until the third grade*

[Crim]

But at 6-8 you have *GOT* to understand "don't hurt someone" (you've been told not to hit your brother/sister/parent innumerable times) and have to understand that when another child is kicking/screaming to leave them alone. These kids are already screwed up in some fundamental way that they need to be separated from the general school population RIGHT NOW. I'll agree on possibly no criminal stuff, but they need something pretty serious drilled into them.

Man, kids 6-8 ganging up and doing violent things to those they view as weaker or different is nothing new. The story as posted is particularly horrible because of the sexual aspect on a little girl, but to read your post literally, I'd say that expecting them "to understand that when another child is kicking/screaming to leave them alone" is asking for more than a significant number of kids that age are able to give.

I do think I understand your point, I'm just saying that if you take out the alledged attempted rape, this type of violent episode is probably very common, relatively speaking, and the teachers in charge should be expected to guard against just that possibility.

When I was in elementary school in the mid/late 70s, it was not uncommon for 3rd graders to enlist 1st or 2nd graders to pick on other kids, and sometimes there were bloody fights. In todays (much) more sexually charged society, while it saddens me, this event does not surprise me.


Crim

[Young Drachma]

I would hate to think people are going to use a story like this to generalize poor, city kids simply because they might not understand the experiences and characterize their own as more pure and innocent.

That said, you have to do something to ensure that these kids understand, hell ALL kids understand that these sorts of things are wrong. Kids pick up subtle messages in everything these days and lord knows what they heard or thought.

But it seems that today, we have a completely different standard of how we deal with stuff. Thirty years ago, something happens, people find out and deal with it appropriately. Today, people wanna lock mfs up for life, throw away the key, bilk school districts for billions and they call that justice.

Until the facts of this case come out in a less sensationalized way, I will reserve judgement.

[astrosfan64]

Maybe these kids were just trying to catch the eye of the Duke LAX team?

Overall this makes me sad. My daughter is 4 and starting school next year. I can't imagine anyone doing that to her. Maybe, I'll home school.

[Raven Hawk]

I don't know if I'd be as understanding as the great Aunt. If my daughter suffered an attempted sexual violation at recess A) I'd take her the hell out of that school. B) Sue the asses of the teachers who weren't doing their job C) Wonder where in the hell 6-8 year olds get the idea to do something like that.

Just because this happened, it doesn't mean that the teachers weren't doing their jobs. I'm not sure how their lunches are broken out, but my guess is that there was at least 200 kids on the playground. This means that with a staff of 2 teachers, each teacher had to watch 100 kids. This sounds more like an issue of the school understaffing the playrground than a teacher not doing his/her job.

So now we sue the school district, win loads of money. Because of the monetary loss, all the schools in the district lose staff and this has an even greater chance of happening at every school in the district.

How about this for an idea: Instead of suing the teachers (unless they can truthfully be found neglegent), try sueing the parents of the kids that did this. I think that it's about time that we stop blaming our teachers for the piss poor examples of parenting that are going on out there. Hell, teachers today can't even discipline the children in their classrooms without the fear of being sued by a parent.

Now its understandable that should something like this ever happen to somebody that the anger would boil over. Just makes sure to direct the litigation at the appropriate target.

[IwasHere]

How about this for an idea: Instead of suing the teachers (unless they can truthfully be found neglegent), try sueing the parents of the kids that did this.

You have to go where the money is. Sounds like this school does not have to many kids born with a silver spoon in their mouths.