Sensitive Subject: Religion.. Yay or Nay?

[DeToxRox]

This is something that makes me wonder.. How many people on this forum are religious, and if so, why?

I personally do not believe in any form of God. I am a believe in Darwinisim, that everything is here from evolution.

My reasoning for this?

All Releigions have a God, and in theory, it's different God's, but the truth is, it's all the same God with lots of Nick Names. So all the talk about war, and the brutality in the Middle East, is because these groups of people are killing each other for their God, who is the same God for the other side.

I just can't picture this "God" fellow allowing millions of people to die for his attention. If this were the God everyone has dreamed up and written about, he'd have stopped all this nonsense before it could begin.

Also, there's Adam & Eve. The fact that between two people they could populate the earth with their offspring would make everyone related.. Yet, there are so many ethnicities, personalities, etc, it just doesn't seem plausable.

I felt I owed to those who are religious to explain my reasons, and I respect what you guys chose, but this is just how I feel.

And to quote George Carlin.. "I like to pray to someone I see.. Thats why I pray to Joe Pesci. He has the same 50/50 shot answering my prayers God does, and he does it a whole lot quicker"

[SaintAnselm]

Religion is an interesting subject for me. I am an atheist so I do not believe in any God. I cannot rule out the possibility that there was not a creator for the mere fact that we do not know how everything began. The big-bang is interesting but not without holes.
As far as why I do not believe, I don't neccessarily have an answer. In my opinion there should not be a single answer. People believe or don't believe because it's what they believe. That's it.
On the topic of atheism, I have a couple of quotes for you....

What religion a man shall have is a historical accident, quite as much as what language he shall speak. ~George Santayana, Reason in Religion

If there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. ~Albert Camus

There are many moreHERE (http://www.quotegarden.com/spiritsans/index.html)

[Patman]

Yay

[illinifan999]

I'm a Yay.

[sabotai]

Which one mean yes?

(Little Robin Hood: Men in Tights reference for the kids).

I think everyone already knows my side. Nay.

[wbonnell]

I grew up with religion (Catholicism), but I am now agnostic. I'd like to believe there is a creator though I suspect it's beyond our comprehension- kinda like the notion of time. Religion, IMO, has too many holes, and, personally, I'm not willing to take the necessary "leap of faith".

[Easy Mac]

i heart wbonnell

I go to church to appease my devoutly catholic girlfriend (my self raised catholic). I'd like to beleive, but there is too much left to wonder to take it all as blind faith.

[kcchief19]

Sensitive subject? Naw ...

I'm in between. I WANT to believe there is a god. It would ease my soult to know that we are more than mere flesh. However, while my picture of God is deeply influenced by my Catholic upbringing, I believe that if there is a god, then man has perverted his image and existence in many ways.

There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God. It is entirely a leap of faith. When push comes to shove, I can't take that leap. I don't KNOW that there is a god. The situation that the world finds itself in today does nothing to help me believe that there is a god.

I have a dear friend who has a PhD in religious studies, yet he is not a member of a religion. He has his own belief in god and regularly attends non-denominational services. I find his belief system very intriguing. He believes that there is a god, but not in the way in which our churches profess there is a god. I find myself supporting those theories.

[IMetTrentGreen]

nay. if i listed why i'd take up the next 4 pages

[wbonnell]

not believing in a god- and by extension the afterlife- is pretty hopeless. Think about it: if you die in sleep tonight, you're <b><i>gone</i></b>.

[SaintAnselm]

Wbonnell, that's not, and I know you're not using it that way, a reason to believe. Our insecurities about our place in the world or what happens after we die is not a reason to believe. I like to believe that the people I love and leave behind are my afterlife. Just simply being gone is fine with me. Just like it was before I was born. I never was.

[Craptacular]

Yes.

[MJ4H]

I am religious. A Christian.

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by SaintAnselm
Wbonnell, that's not, and I know you're not using it that way, a reason to believe. Our insecurities about our place in the world or what happens after we die is not a reason to believe. I like to believe that the people I love and leave behind are my afterlife. Just simply being gone is fine with me. Just like it was before I was born. I never was.

What I was trying to say was I <b>want</b> there to be a god. Oblivion scares me.

[SaintAnselm]

Something else to remember, a god does not neccessarily mean there is an afterlife. Most, if not all, organized religions may have one, but it does not mean there is one. I would also argue the same is true the other way around. Without a god there could still concievably be an afterlife.

[MizzouRah]

Yes, I believe in god. I also believe you are put on earth for a reason. It's amazing how I have changed my (not biological) daughter's life. I think I was brought to her through god's work, and my impact will alter the way she grows up. (For what god has planned for her)

I often think how can a god or god let things like kids getting killed, women getting raped, wars, etc.. happen? He doesn't intervene in that way. Things happen for a reason, imo.

I also believe you can talk to god without going to church. I hate reading about priests molesting children, aren't they supposed to be a more direct link to god?

Once we start cloning people like Wonder makes bread, I think you will see Jesus return.

One more thing, I am very open about religion and respect the right people have as humans to make their religious choices.

Faith might be one of the hardest things a human can have.


Todd

[Mustang]

Ugh..


Big No.

[Bonegavel]

Up until the age of 18 I was in church probably more than most people in a lifetime. I was a believer until my early 20's. Now, I am forced once a year at Christmas time by my wife.

When somebody can explain to me how an all powerful God can allow infants and innocents to suffer so horribly when he has the ability to stop it, I may reconsider (and you can stuff your 'free will' arguments where the sun don't shine). But, it ain't going to happen.

[Taco]

I definitely believe in God. The biggest reason that I believe is because of changes in myself that I can't explain any other way. I was brought up Catholic, then turned atheist for a short time, and finally became a Christian. I don't call myself religious, but my relationship with God is extremely important to me.

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by BoneGavel
Up until the age of 18 I was in church probably more than most people in a lifetime. I was a believer until my early 20's. Now, I am forced once a year at Christmas time by my wife.

When somebody can explain to me how an all powerful God can allow infants and innocents to suffer so horribly when he has the ability to stop it, I may reconsider (and you can stuff your 'free will' arguments where the sun don't shine). But, it ain't going to happen.

In order to put good into the world and for us to realize it, he had to create the obverse. He could not have created a good without an evil. Logically thats how it follows. That would theoretically put constraints on God, but thats how it had to be. how else would you learn to cherish life without learning how to lose it.

And if God interceded, wouldn't we really lose our humanity? We'd be nothing more than machines, to fearful to do anything lest we incur the wrath of God. I think in your case, you'd have to assume God is all good and all powerful, b/c just being all powerful doesn't mean he'd do all good.

Not saying this is true, but I spent an entire semester in college discussing this very thing. Lots of weird ideas posed in that class.

[Easy Mac]

dola, and has anyone else noticed how many Catholics get rid of God once they're old enough to leave the house. Seems like a rather large number, or else you hear about it more. Just seems kind of odd. I know like 20 kids at my school who are the same way as me. Is it something about the rituals?

[superbama]

I would'nt call myself religious but I do believe in something. I enjoy my I do my job you do yours relationship with "god".

[sabotai]

"We'd be nothing more than machines, to fearful to do anything lest we incur the wrath of God."

Hmm, funny. That's how a lot christians seem to act now.

[Neuqua]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
dola, and has anyone else noticed how many Catholics get rid of God once they're old enough to leave the house. Seems like a rather large number, or else you hear about it more. Just seems kind of odd. I know like 20 kids at my school who are the same way as me. Is it something about the rituals?

Wierd. I just had a discussion today among my fellow employees and 4 of them were discussing how they went to catholic school as kids and haven't been to church since. I know nothing about the catholic religion, but reading that prompted me to reply.

[bbor]

This could over take the thread kill.

[mrskippy]

You already know my answer. :D

[Rich1033]

I was raised chatholic, but even at that time it didnt answer my questions. It only made more questions.

Nay

[ACStrider]

DeTox, I appreciate your honesty regarding this issue. Most athiest/agnostics/others that I run into seem to not want to bother with the issue of religion. I'm a Christian and I take my faith very seriously, so I'll try and answer some of your points that you raise (and it may address some of the others brought up in this thread in the process).

--"I personally do not believe in any form of God. I am a believe in Darwinisim, that everything is here from evolution."--

There is actually a good number of Christians who would agree with elements of evolution. The reasoning goes that God created, then allowed the laws of nature to run its course. This kind of evolution (microevolution through natural selection) allowed for dominant traits necessary for the survival of a species to perpetuate. What is disputed is macroevolution or interspecies evolution. I wasn't sure if you were aware of this and thought I would bring that out.

--"All Releigions have a God, and in theory, it's different God's, but the truth is, it's all the same God with lots of Nick Names. So all the talk about war, and the brutality in the Middle East, is because these groups of people are killing each other for their God, who is the same God for the other side."--

Like anything in science, it is impossible to prove anything, only to disprove. In the same light, God can not be proven or disproven. The existance of God is a theory (much like the theory of gravity). We have very strong reason to believe that gravity exists, but it can not be proven. I think I've made that point enough. To continue, though, our knowledge of the spiritual rhelms is very limited. We can make speculations based on our own observations, but in many ways we will fall short because hard, tangible evidence is lacking. To use the argument of the theists of the 1700's and 1800's, the evidence of a creation suggests a creator. In addition, the existance of religion and a desire to seek for this "creator" gives reason to believe that the desire in itself is something placed in every individual. So throughout history, people have been seeking after God and creating religions in effort to find Him. I'm not going to get into why I believe Christianity is the true religion, but I also won't deny that all religions have elements of truth to them. Truth is truth whether it comes from a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, an agnostic, or an atheist. So I think that when it comes down to it, all religions are an honest pursuit of the true God, but these religions can be mutually exclusive (i.e. some individual religions believes that they are the true religion and the others are false, leaving the more militant elements of these religions to pursue a violent eradication of those dissenting).

--"I just can't picture this "God" fellow allowing millions of people to die for his attention. If this were the God everyone has dreamed up and written about, he'd have stopped all this nonsense before it could begin."--

This is a good question, although I might take issue with one thing in particular (may just be the wording). I don't think God allows millions of people to die just to capture the attention of people. This would almost suggest that God delights in evil because it is a means to an end. This is a form of sadism that which throws all religions (or nearly all of them) on their heads. I will admit that the existance of evil can be very complex. Many an intelligent philosopher (Pascal being the first to come to mind) struggled intensely with the question of God and evil. The fact is that the original creation was free from all evil. Christianity (as nearly all religions) believes that God is good. As logic would suggest, anything not of God, or not of His desire, is evil. So God did not create evil, but by definition, evil exists. In the original creation, all things were in line with desire of God and therefore good. This included mankind. But man sought after the knowledge of good and evil. And so in man was a foundation in the likeness of God (good) but a hereditary desire to also allow for evil. As with anything in life, actions have consequences, and sometimes our actions have consequences on innocent people. So why didn't God step in somewhere and end this madness? It's a legitimate question. Theologians have been asking it for thousands of years. To be honest, I couldn't give you an answer that you would probably be satisfied with (if you've hung with me to this point). I guess it's one of the places where trust and faith step in to play.

--"Also, there's Adam & Eve. The fact that between two people they could populate the earth with their offspring would make everyone related.. Yet, there are so many ethnicities, personalities, etc, it just doesn't seem plausable."--

This point goes to the Genesis account (which I've given a little of to this point). I'm not going to go into it only to say that many site the Tower of Babel as the creation of the various ethnic groups (language in particular) (see Genesis chapter 11). You could also argue that following the flood, the various ethnic groups can be traced back to the sons of Noah (see Genesis chapter 9-10). There are also those that suggest that the entire Genesis account is purely symbolic, but I don't fall into that category.

--"I felt I owed to those who are religious to explain my reasons, and I respect what you guys chose, but this is just how I feel."--

Like I said earlier, I appreciate your honesty. It seems that a lot of people (or at least the people that I run into) that would fall into your category are unwilling to tackle these types of questions. Well, I hope that this is helpful or sheds some insight.

[Ben E Lou]

I am NOT religious. I follow Jesus Christ. :D

[Ben E Lou]

Dola--incidentally, this isn't really that sensitive a subject around here. We've had several long and rational discussions about belief. Grantdawg, revrew, myself and others have all been asked at various times to defend/explain the Biblical position on a given subject, and we've all been treated with respect when we do so.

[Fritz]

not religious, not an athiest, not a christian

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle
This is something that makes me wonder.. How many people on this forum are religious, and if so, why?
I personally do not believe in any form of God. I am a believe in Darwinisim, that everything is here from evolution.
I am - but in my own way, I haven't found a mainstream religion that I can agree with 100% ... however I do believe that there is a greater purpose to life and the universe and thus believe in god.

Now onto defending the religions I have just professed to not believe in ;)

Originally posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle
I just can't picture this "God" fellow allowing millions of people to die for his attention. If this were the God everyone has dreamed up and written about, he'd have stopped all this nonsense before it could begin.
The normal defense to that is that humans have 'free will' and that without that there would be little point to our existance (as god would know what would happen - negating any purpose in it actually occuring).

It might help with this, if you think of 'god' as the father (many religions often refer to him as this) - he might allow his children (ie. us) to do things which harm us as in the long-term we (as a race) will learn lessons from this.

Its analogical to a parent letting their children learn from their mistakes as sometimes this is the only way a child can appreciate the reason for not doing something.

Originally posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle
Also, there's Adam & Eve. The fact that between two people they could populate the earth with their offspring would make everyone related.. Yet, there are so many ethnicities, personalities, etc, it just doesn't seem plausable.
There are many aspects of the Bible (and other religious texts) which are 'illogical' from a scientific approach. Whether this invalidates the relgion depends upon several things:

* Do you believe the words given in the text are 'literal' or simply an overview to a more complex occurance. For instance the 'world being built in 7 days' does a day or is this an analogy which is meant to be more comprehensible than what actually happened.
* Do you have faith that its possible because for god anything is possible?

I noticed that your main critiques have been aimed at the christian faith, if you are really interested in an analysis of the Bible and whether it holds water from a scientific approach then I'd suggest reading "Evidence that requires a verdict - by Josh Mc Dowell". It didn't convince me to become a christian but was an interesting and insightful read all the same.

[cincyreds]

DeTox and Saint I will be praying for you.....Obviously you are both still searching and I hope you find the answers you are looking for before it is too late.

SkyDog....AMEN brother!!!

I am also not ashamed of the Cross that I claim!!!

JESUS IS REAL, ALIVE AND WELL, LVING INSIDE OF ME!!

[Noop]

I believe in God and his Prophets that he's sent to earth Dr.King, Malcom X, Bob Marley, Tupac Shaukar,Jesus, the muslim prophet and many others. While I do not worship God's prophets I have a deep respect for them. And also I cant say I worship someone who has been on this earth. But the thing is i dont believe in religion I think its bull and drugs for the masses. As long as it gives hope I guess I'll never say I hate it.

noop

[BucDawg40]

Here's a huge NAY vote from me. I think all of the world's religions will either be gone within the next 1000 years, or they will have changed so much that they will bear little resemblance to their current forms.

I don't think Christians should be called "Christians" -- "Jesus Fans" is more apropriate and accurate description. After all, the vast majority of people who consider themselves Christians live nothing like Jesus supposedly lived. From my experience, American Christians are the most materialistic people in the world, always able to justify their vast wealth in the eyes of their god. Give up your big house and your big car and move into the desert. Then you can call yourself a Christian all you want. Until then, "Jesus Fan" is what you should be called.

"In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple." Luke 14.33

Give it all to the poor. You don't need it. You'll be rich in heaven after all, right?

[revrew]

Religious? No. I am steadfastly opposed to religion and more specifically, religiousity (i.e. what sabotai likened many Christians as doing, behaving as frightened machines).

But am I a man of faith? Yes. I believe in a god that can be experienced, known, loved, and loved by. And I believe that god has one name by which he was known when he made himself man and walked on earth--Jesus, the Christ.

Now, I'd love to discuss many of these theological questions (even with sabotai (insert big grin and wink here)), but since you brought up "religion", I'll give my understanding of the dif between religion and faith. Not officially Webster's, you understand, just revrew's--"Faith" is a individual's belief and trust in a fundamental, life-directing, though often unprovable, truth (in my case, "Jesus was who he said he was--one with the Father, Yahweh incarnate). Now there's nothing wrong with people of similar faith forming community. When, however, those individuals form an organization, and the perseverance and advancement of that organization becomes the fundamental truth of their faith, that faith I call "religion."

I cannot support man's attempt at bringing unity artificially, through man-made rules and patterns of conformity called "religion." I can, however, support a divine attempt at bringing unity supernaturally, the binding of unlike hearts together in forgiveness, love, and grace, through something once called "the Church" (though people have long since twisted and distorted what that word means, still it's the word the Bible uses, so I'll continue using it.)

You don't have to accept the abuses and stupidity of religions and churches to believe in the God who grieves over the same things you do.

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by SkyDog
I am NOT religious. I follow Jesus Christ. :D

That is what I can't understand. How you can follow a man(God?) you never met? How do you *know* he existed? Do you feel it in your heart? If so, how is that feeling any different than a devout muslim's?

[wbonnell]

dola:

<b>religion is primarily a product of society</b>. Those of you with a predilection to worship would likely be devout muslims, buddhists, or jews in other circumstances.

[revrew]

wbonell: What do mean, "never met"? Oh, sure, you can call me a crazy nut, but I'd suggest to you I have met him, and that's a big reason why I follow him.

And "product of society"? - Yes, 'tis true in my earlier days I would have been a muslim, buddhist, jew, etc. In fact, I grew up in a Catholic town to a Catholic mother. When I was a kid, I was Catholic. But when I left for college, I grew skeptical. I explored different religions. In the end, I found the God of Israel, through His Son, Jesus, the only god I could put faith in. Then I "met" him, and I'll never be the same again. And if you'll permit me the kind of spiritual mumbo-jumbo that some dismiss as silly emotionalism, I continue to "meet" him daily, and it only continues to transform my life and convince me more and more of his existence.

[Craptacular]

A friend of mine has a T-shirt that says "Recovering Catholic" (he left the Catholic church in college). He still has a strong faith in God, and he found another denomination; he just didn't like the Catholic way.

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by Craptacular
A friend of mine has a T-shirt that says "Recovering Catholic" (he left the Catholic church in college). He still has a strong faith in God, and he found another denomination; he just didn't like the Catholic way.


That's another discussion, but I agree.


Todd

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by revrew
wbonell: What do mean, "never met"? Oh, sure, you can call me a crazy nut, but I'd suggest to you I have met him, and that's a big reason why I follow him.

And "product of society"? - Yes, 'tis true in my earlier days I would have been a muslim, buddhist, jew, etc. In fact, I grew up in a Catholic town to a Catholic mother. When I was a kid, I was Catholic. But when I left for college, I grew skeptical. I explored different religions. In the end, I found the God of Israel, through His Son, Jesus, the only god I could put faith in. Then I "met" him, and I'll never be the same again. And if you'll permit me the kind of spiritual mumbo-jumbo that some dismiss as silly emotionalism, I continue to "meet" him daily, and it only continues to transform my life and convince me more and more of his existence.

Do you "know" the same god as a Muslim? Because he's pretty convinced Islam is the truth...

[Qwikshot]

I'm Catholic, but I've long since stopped going. As we grow older, we tend to reconsider just what it is to be Catholic, I think it is to be ignorant. We are to be the sheep, and donate regularly.

It is typical with any religion, the belief system no longer fits into today's lifestyle.

Frightened machines, bah. I believe there is a God. I believe God is constantly creating, constantly destroying. God observes, but does not intercede.

More importantly, I believe in being good. I believe in doing the morally correct thing. Morality follows in the same vein and religion. Human beings are generally selfish, hateful creatures, there is compassion, but most people are oppurtunists. For every good Samaritan, there are five or six Judas waiting. Religion in olden times brought an incentive to people to be good in a time during the Plague, wars, disease, famine, poverty, and death in general.

The thing is, if you don't believe in God, or a higher power, what is to stop you from being moral?

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Qwikshot

It is typical with any religion, the belief system no longer fits into today's lifestyle.


Best thing said in this thread yet!

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
In order to put good into the world and for us to realize it, he had to create the obverse. He could not have created a good without an evil. Logically thats how it follows. That would theoretically put constraints on God, but thats how it had to be. how else would you learn to cherish life without learning how to lose it.

And if God interceded, wouldn't we really lose our humanity? We'd be nothing more than machines, to fearful to do anything lest we incur the wrath of God. I think in your case, you'd have to assume God is all good and all powerful, b/c just being all powerful doesn't mean he'd do all good.

Not saying this is true, but I spent an entire semester in college discussing this very thing. Lots of weird ideas posed in that class.

Point taken.

However, isn't a shephard's job to make sure his flock comes to no harm? We are lead to believe that we are his sheep and he is our shephard. If this is true, he isn't doing a very good job of it.

And all this talk of interceding... isn't the fact that he basically damned us to lives of hardship (aka, being kicked out of Eden) interceding? Isn't God destroying the Earth with a flood interceding? Isn't God destroying cities for "wickedness" interceding? Isn't God healing sick people interceding?

He intercedes at every point. Just not when it would do the most good (i.e., finding a baby in a dumpster).

[ACStrider]

Just a couple more quick comments...
To suggest that because people don't completely follow Jesus invalidates Christianity is absurd. If you truly believe that Jesus was a perfect man and that all men before and after weren't, then by definition it would be impossible to completely follow everything that God demands. I'm not trying to excuse the wrongs of Christians, but that's what they are...wrongs. What should be asked instead is "has Christianity produced a change in the individual's life?" The Christian life is by nature transforming. In addition, it is important to realize that Jesus used human argument to make deeper theological principles. For example, as was mentioned earlier, "In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple." Luke 14.33. I seriously doubt that this was suggesting that Christians must live destitute lives. It's kind of hard for the church to provide for the poor if individuals within the church have nothing left to give. Rather, I would believe that the point of what Jesus was saying is that you must not put anything above seeking and serving God.

Josh McDowell's book "Evidence that demands a verdict" is one resource mentioned. May I suggest another. It is called "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Strobel was a skeptical reporter in the legal division of the Chicago Sun-Times before his wife became a Christian. He was so amazed at the change that occured in her life following her conversion that he took a serious look at the evidence surrounding the Christian faith. His honest search for the truth resulted in his own life-changing conversion. This book is a well-written, easy to read book which is very good at keeping you interested. What he does is he takes serious questions which could provide cracks in the Christian faith and proposes these questions (much like a lawyer would) to world respected experts. Christian or not, I would highly recommend this book.

[wbonnell]

Originally posted by revrew
Oh, sure, you can call me a crazy nut, but I'd suggest to you I have met him, and that's a big reason why I follow him.


I envy you; I really do. I guess I'm too analytical and skeptical (which insidiously combine to make me pessimistic). I was raised Catholic (but not religious even though I attended parochial school) before my parents divorced. My father, aimless and confused "found" god in christianity (first baptist to be exact). My siblings and I attended the new church for several years during which time I also "found" god. However, I later realized that it wasn't god that I had found, but merely some fundamental satisfaction-perhaps satisfaction at being a member of a club, being accepted, feeling hope, whatever.

Anyway, the more secular education I recieved, the more holes I found in organized religion. In the end, I realized there is no proof that Buddhism is the true way any more than Christianity.

As an aside, as an atheist/agnostic hearing a Christian tell me they've "met" god is no different that a "cult" member saying the same thing. Why is the cult member shunned? Haven't they taken the exact same "leap of faith"?

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by BoneGavel
Point taken.

However, isn't a shephard's job to make sure his flock comes to no harm? We are lead to believe that we are his sheep and he is our shephard. If this is true, he isn't doing a very good job of it.

And all this talk of interceding... isn't the fact that he basically damned us to lives of hardship (aka, being kicked out of Eden) interceding? Isn't God destroying the Earth with a flood interceding? Isn't God destroying cities for "wickedness" interceding? Isn't God healing sick people interceding?

He intercedes at every point. Just not when it would do the most good (i.e., finding a baby in a dumpster).

I understand what you're saying, but basically you have to believe the stories and the Bible.

Assuming one does, then you also have to believe God is a perfect being that does no wrong. He allows us to suffer in order to complete some higher good that we cannot comprehend. The baby probably doesn't understand its purpose, but that doesn't make its place in life any less. There seems to be an underlying theme of Christianity that the suffering of the few makes God's picture complete and whole, once the final outcome of his will is known.

Once again, I don't really believe any of this, but its the most "logical" way of looking at why shit happens in the context of Christianity (or applicable religion)

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally posted by wbonnell
That is what I can't understand. How you can follow a man(God?) you never met? How do you *know* he existed? Do you feel it in your heart? If so, how is that feeling any different than a devout muslim's?
I'm not a christian, however I AM confident that Jesus Christ did exist and was a great leader/holy man .....

My reasoning on this is down to the evidence given through historical documents, christian and otherwise.

The only thing I'm not 100% convinced about is whether he was the 'son of god'. This is something imho that comes down to faith and is something that any religious believer has to find within themselves, I don't think its something that can be written down and explained.

[Qwikshot]

Originally posted by Fritz
Best thing said in this thread yet!

Thanks Fritz...

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
I'm not a christian, however I AM confident that Jesus Christ did exist and was a great leader/holy man .....

If I'm not mistaken, I thought they [historians] had found in Roman writings [I would guess stone carvings] that Pilate did exist. And that it was probably credible fact that a man named Jesus Christ did exist. I believe that Paul, John the Baptist, Peter, and the rest of the apostles did exist, therefore Jesus Christ did at one time exist, and lead them...

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by wbonnell
That is what I can't understand. How you can follow a man(God?) you never met? How do you *know* he existed? Do you feel it in your heart? If so, how is that feeling any different than a devout muslim's? Sorry I missed this earlier. It appears that revrew explained it very well. I'd just add that my journey to faith in Christ involved more than just my feelings.
I did some serious searching of the Scriptures and of secular historical documents when I was in my late teens. From what I read then, and have experienced since then, I am convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus was resurrected from death. For me, that is the difference between religion and following Christ. The former is a set (pick any set) of rules, regulations, laws and traditions, while the latter is trusting a living God who validated his claims by rising from death.

[G-Man]

Originally posted by cincyreds
DeTox and Saint I will be praying for you.....Obviously you are both still searching and I hope you find the answers you are looking for before it is too late.

SkyDog....AMEN brother!!!

I am also not ashamed of the Cross that I claim!!!

JESUS IS REAL, ALIVE AND WELL, LVING INSIDE OF ME!!

AMEN BROTHERS!!

Some people on this board think that Joe Montana was great because of his football prowress or because of his Superbowl Rings. Some people think that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was great because of his accomplishments during his terms as a President.
However I believe that greatness is only defined by what my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said in Matthew 20:26-28:
"Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave-- Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

I have only been a Christain for six years now going onto my seventh. I was raised a Jew for 41 years. I still consider myself Jewish as I was created that way by God and am no more capable of undoing that as I am of creating or performing miracles. However I am now blessed to have Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I will not regale you with the details of how I came to be a believer, let's just say I now truly have Faith and a relationship with a living and loving God. Yes the same God of Abraham and Moses and David. The one and only God of the heavens and the Earth!

It is not for me to convince any of my beliefs, yes I will spread the Gospel, according to Jesus, but I will not force it on those unwilling to have it. That is for the Lord and he alone.

What I can and will do, what I am commanded to do is to pray for all of those who do not have a relationship with the Lord. I will pray that you will come to know and love him as he knows and loves all of us, his children.

Jesus died so that we may live. AMEN and HALLALUYAH!!:D

[DeToxRox]

Cincy, I thank that you're praying for me.. But I look at you through the other end of the spectrum.

I feel I have enough control of my life to here my own God is me. I don't need to have a supreme being I try and live my life around.

I wish you the best in your search for yourself.

I just feel like believing in Christ over Myself is unhealthy. It's bad enough when I feel I do something wrong, now some people take it to the point where they think Christ is frowning upon them so they need to do unnatural good. I let it all fall in place. No point in trying to stop what I can't forsee.

[Fritz]

Skydog - where do you seperate dogma from religion?

[G-Man]

Originally posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle
Cincy, I thank that you're praying for me.. But I look at you through the other end of the spectrum.

I feel I have enough control of my life to here my own God is me. I don't need to have a supreme being I try and live my life around.

I wish you the best in your search for yourself.

I just feel like believing in Christ over Myself is unhealthy. It's bad enough when I feel I do something wrong, now some people take it to the point where they think Christ is frowning upon them so they need to do unnatural good. I let it all fall in place. No point in trying to stop what I can't forsee.

The Lord does Judge us by our behavior and he does expect obeidiance. However he also knows that we are sinful by nature and only through his divine power may we be cleansed. Please remember that his Grace is boundless!! Another words ask for forgiveness from your heart, and repent. I think that most people feel as you do, they do not want to have to answer to be accountable to God, so they choose not to believe! They do not understand what a forgiving God he is that created us.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Fritz
Skydog - where do you seperate dogma from religion? Hmmm...now that's an interesting question. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure what you mean. I don't have a dictionary nearby, but to me the connotation of "dogma" is one of rigid, unchangeable tenets of faith. Is that what you're referring to?

[Fritz]

Dogma - "A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church. "

---

So I guess yes.

[sabotai]

"My reasoning on this is down to the evidence given through historical documents, christian and otherwise."

Actually, there are not historical documents written during the life of Jesus that mention him. If he was so great while in Jerusalem, why didn't anyone write about him?

The earliest documents mentioning Jesus were written decades after his 'death'. Most were written 100 AD or later. Even then, a lot of those references to Jesus have been found to be forgeries.

And the story of Jesus is not a very original one. There was a man who was said to be the son of God born of a virgin. He was born in a stable and visted by shepherds who gave him gifts. He performed miricles such as turning water into win and curing blindness and paralysis. He was a wanted man by the government. He celebrated a "Last Supper" with his twelve disciples and then was executed. Soon after, he was ressurected and join his father, God, in heaven.

Who is he? The answer is Mithra. His legend goes back as far as 2000 years before Jesus was said to be born. There is nothing in the accounts of Jesus' life that doesn't directly mirror that of a pre-existing legend or prophet.

[Drake]

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
I am - but in my own way, I haven't found a mainstream religion that I can agree with 100% ... however I do believe that there is a greater purpose to life and the universe and thus believe in god.

(Not to slam on Marc, because he is certainly not the only one struggling with this position. We all struggle with it to some extent, I think. Marc just said it, so I wanted to attribute it properly before I addressed it.)

I never get this argument for not "being religious" (whatever your description of that entails -- going to church, etc.) I mean, really, do people ever choose not to go to mainstream colleges because they can't agree 100% with what the professors will teach? Religion is to relationship as college is to knowledge. It's what you know, not where you go. Anyone who says they are "spiritual" without being "religious" is just being lazy. They want the rewards without putting in the work; they want to reap what they don't sow. This isn't an argument for dogmatism or extremism, it's just a recognition that as a human being I am frail and easily dissuaded and I need the practice of "religion" to remind me that God is, God does, God *wants* when I feel disconnected from him.

And I'm Judeo-pagan.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by Drake
I'm Judeo-pagan.


You are a doof

[Drake]

I love you, Fritz. Isn't your wife Judeo-pagan, too?

[Fritz]

no, she is a Methodontist

[Drake]

That's right! I'm a Methodontist, too.

[Fritz]

Really? I need some Wesleyan Braces.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally posted by Drake
[BI never get this argument for not "being religious" (whatever your description of that entails -- going to church, etc.) I mean, really, do people ever choose not to go to mainstream colleges because they can't agree 100% with what the professors will teach? Religion is to relationship as college is to knowledge. It's what you know, not where you go. Anyone who says they are "spiritual" without being "religious" is just being lazy. They want the rewards without putting in the work; they want to reap what they don't sow. This isn't an argument for dogmatism or extremism, it's just a recognition that as a human being I am frail and easily dissuaded and I need the practice of "religion" to remind me that God is, God does, God *wants* when I feel disconnected from him.
And I'm Judeo-pagan. [/B]
Hey 'slam away' - to a certain extent I realise that my position is a comfortable one and apparently an 'easy stance'.

I however see this stance as more honest than deciding that I should be a christian without having a 100% conviction in that faith (which I unfortunately don't have).

I do 100% believe in what I've indicated, I sincerely believe that there must be more to life than just random events - however I cannot reconcile this with the tenets of any religion which I have investigated.

This isn't imho laziness .. I just do not see the point in commiting to a religion which doesn't feel 100% right to me, but I do want to believe in more than just what I can see and touch.

Why do I want to believe this you ask? - I'll happily admit that one of the main reasons behind my belief in a god is selfishness (and not wanting to simply turn to dust and that be it), nothing wrong in that imho and I'm not in the least ashamed by it.

I've always considered that if something gives you strength as a person and doesn't adversely affect anyone else then that is undoubtably good for you.

Hence I will defend peoples rights to having their own religious beliefs whatever they might be (so long as they don't adversely affect others) and feel that my beliefs however 'odd' they might be are right for me currently.

[SaintAnselm]

I apologize for the quotes but these people know more than I will ever know so they can say it much better than I. I feel like they are all thought provoking for both a believer and an atheist.

The problem with fundamentalists insisting on a literal interpretation of the Bible is that the meaning of words change. A prime example is 'Spare the rod, spoil the child.' A rod was a stick used by shepherds to guide their sheep to go in the desired direction. Shepherds did not use it to beat their sheep. The proper translation of the saying is 'Give your child guidance, or they will go astray.' It does not mean 'Beat the shit out of your child or he will become rotten' as many fundamentalist parents seem to belive. ~Unknown

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. ~Richard F. Burton

"Strange...a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied seventy times seven and invented Hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!" ~Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger

I consider Christian theology to be one of the great disasters of the human race... it would be impossible to imagine anything more un-Christlike than theology. Christ probably couldn't have understood it. ~Alfred North Whitehead

Miracles happen to those who believe in them. Otherwise, why does the Virgin Mary not appear to Lamaists, Mohammedans, or Hindus? ~Bernard Berenson, New York Times Book Review

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts

An atheist is a man who has no invisible means of support. ~John Buchan, 1875-1940

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. ~Friedrich Nietzsche

[sabotai]

Got to love Nietzsche. :)

[BreizhManu]

Nay

[tucker342]

I used to believe when I was little. Now I'm an atheist

[Schmidty]

I'm doing another one of my "reading 2 or 3 posts, and then skipping to the end, and replying" stunts, because most of you gys are windbags ;).

My only question is this:

Why are darwinism and religion mutually exclusive?

I am a follower of Christ, but I also believe that evolution is undeniable. I don't believe that the Bible slam the door on evolution.

[Drake]

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
Hey 'slam away' - to a certain extent I realise that my position is a comfortable one and apparently an 'easy stance'.

I should apologize, Marc. It isn't really fair to implicate you in my statements as somehow having avoided a difficult decision. The truth is that this position is often more difficult than the alternative (i.e. "faith" decisions). It was unfair of me to take you as an example, especially when I don't know you personally. Please forgive my impertinence.

I however see this stance as more honest than deciding that I should be a christian without having a 100% conviction in that faith (which I unfortunately don't have).

I will concede to this argument completely. I guess my beef is really with people who claim to have 100% conviction that God exists or that a particular religion is right, but avoid practicing that religion (and the sorts of things their religion requires) because they can't find a fellowship with which they agree 100%. That seems to me to be a cop-out. Your stance, as you say, is completely honest. It's not lazy, it's simply a reservation of decision pending further evidence. I'll never fault anyone for seeking out facts or other data upon which to found their opinions.

I do 100% believe in what I've indicated, I sincerely believe that there must be more to life than just random events - however I cannot reconcile this with the tenets of any religion which I have investigated.

This isn't imho laziness .. I just do not see the point in commiting to a religion which doesn't feel 100% right to me, but I do want to believe in more than just what I can see and touch.

Again, conceded. :)

Why do I want to believe this you ask? - I'll happily admit that one of the main reasons behind my belief in a god is selfishness (and not wanting to simply turn to dust and that be it), nothing wrong in that imho and I'm not in the least ashamed by it.

I've always considered that if something gives you strength as a person and doesn't adversely affect anyone else then that is undoubtably good for you.

Hence I will defend peoples rights to having their own religious beliefs whatever they might be (so long as they don't adversely affect others) and feel that my beliefs however 'odd' they might be are right for me currently.

Thanks for explaining your position, Marc. You were much more considerate and gentlemanly than many other would have been. And thank you for such a high and refreshing level of discourse.

D.

[astralhaze]

It most definately does not, but many Christians refuse to acknowledge it. Religion has had a hard time adapting to science when it really shouldn't. I have yet to find a scientific concept that cannot be explained in religious terms. That said, I am an agnostic...errr...to satisfy some of our readers, an agnostic non-theist :D

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
I understand what you're saying, but basically you have to believe the stories and the Bible.

Assuming one does, then you also have to believe God is a perfect being that does no wrong. He allows us to suffer in order to complete some higher good that we cannot comprehend. The baby probably doesn't understand its purpose, but that doesn't make its place in life any less. There seems to be an underlying theme of Christianity that the suffering of the few makes God's picture complete and whole, once the final outcome of his will is known.

Once again, I don't really believe any of this, but its the most "logical" way of looking at why shit happens in the context of Christianity (or applicable religion)

Having faith that the Bible is God's 'word' channeled through man onto paper is one of the basic stumbling blocks of any religion that uses the bible as a source. I am no bible-scholar, but the new testatment contradicts itself often. I won't even touch the OT where God basically said it is ok to sleep with a prostitute, but don't you dare screw around with another married woman.

Many biblical sholars believe that the majority of the bible is comprised of parables and stories to illustrate to man how to live, as opposed to a true account of how things were. Take for instance Noah; the sumerians had Gilgamesh, who went through a very, very similar ordeal. If this were written today, I would smell a lawsuit.